S03.E07: A Fractured Inheritance

[Enginerd]

I think it's in character for Eleanor to have wanted the warm happy family life with her parents that she never got. I think her snarkiness and disdain is an armor she built up over the years due to not being nurtured and loved, but that deep down she did care and did want it. In a flashback way back when, she was crying over a 4-toothbrush holder, meant for a whole family of happy loving toothbrushes.

I think forgiving is often a good thing to do for yourself and your own peace and happiness, but that you aren't morally obligated to do it and you aren't a bad person if you haven't achieved it. Also, it can mean different things. Sometimes it means repairing the relationship, sometimes it means letting the issue go, sometimes it means letting the person go by accepting that they're toxic and cutting them out of your life so they can't hurt you anymore. Unfortunately, horrible people often use the concept to bully others into "forgiving" aka not fighting back or protecting themselves and exposing themselves to continuing harm.

[Rockstar99435]

While I think that the in-show reason Kamilah and Eleanor's mom didn't apologize is that they aren't good people yet, I think the meta-reason is that the Soul Squad is supposed to be helping people just to help people without any kind of reward. If they start getting rewarded with the affection they crave, then their actions become more about getting the reward than doing good for goodness's sake. 

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, Traveller519 said:

All shapes and sizes

...

And distances apart

An astute observation indeed.

4 hours ago, srpturtle80 said:

I loved how excited Eleanor and Michael were about the margaritas. Made me LOL. 

This is 100% how i feel about margaritas.

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

It is very interesting to see something of your own life and issues in these characters. When Eleanor was upset because her mom was willing to change for this other little girl but wasn't ever willing to change for her, it made me cry. I have not felt that way about parents but it's how I feel about my ex. I saw so much of myself in her face in that moment and all of that hurt and I was really relieved that they didn't have her deal with that in a pat simple way. She's still feeling kind of unworthy and hurt at the end of the episode. 

Agreed. I really liked that it wasn't a sitcommy ending where everything was a-okay. Whether she had gotten an apology or not, she is still broken (as I believe she put it). She lives with that trauma and she is beginning to work through it and overcome it, but it will always be a part of her. 

2 hours ago, Dots And Stripes said:

This seems to be a theme: the soul squad is growing more than the people they are trying to save. I hope they are doing something more complex than just doing a reveal that Michael lied when he said they couldn’t get into the Good Place and they have now gained a lot more points while thinking they are doomed.

Certainly, they are making a lot of personal progress, regardless of where this is going. 

1 hour ago, Loandbehold said:

I enjoyed this episode more on rewatch. And noticed that both Tahani and Eleanor were wielding some serious weaponry, an axe and a large kitchen knife respectively. Maybe another example of how it's these two who are really soulmates. Which would also free up relationships for Janet and Jason, and Chidi gettiing back together w/ Simone. If you're into shipping.

I would most be on Team Elehani, were I a big shipper. Pretty sure that isn't where they are going, though.

 

3 minutes ago, Dots And Stripes said:

I did’t feel that Eleanor was forced to forgive her mother. I was worried that Michael was going to give some righteous speech after Eleanor realized why she was so upset with her mother, but he didn’t. He validated her feelings. It is awful that her mother couldn’t be the parent Eleanor needed. I’ll admit that  I was so overwhelmed by that step that I didn’t quite absorb how she came around. I definitely didn’t get the sense that Elneaor was compelled to forgive and forget every bad thing her mother had done. She still expressed some of that residual anger in the car when she said she couldn’t tell anyone she loved them. My takeaway from the episode was more that sometimes it’s ok to feel bad.

I agree with this. It was about Eleanor coming to terms with the fact that her mother is never going to be the mother she needed or deserved, and recognizing how that trauma has affected her. I think it is a big step towards moving past it (along with understanding that she didn't cause it and it isn't her fault). I think there is also an element of understanding that what she will get from her mother is very limited, so any way forward has to come from somewhere else. It isn't fair, and an apology wouldn't fix it. I was glad it wasn't reduced to that. Notwithstanding, spending her time and energy trying to get even isn't going to help either of them.

I actually appreciate that this show writes complex characters and relationships. I suspect there will be something to that, in the future. I think it is an intentional counterpoint to the point system. 

[Enginerd]

11 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I get a kick out of the running gag that everything Kamilah does turns to gold. Tahani throws an egg against the wall and some rando wanders by and marvels at Kamilah's artistic brilliance. 

The thing is, it really isn't just about their parents and the way they were treated. The way this show depicts Kamilah is as some kind of demi-God who is worshipped by all wherever she goes. It's really kind of absurd and I don't know how you can really blame her parents for that. 

That part actually rings kind of true for me. Popularity and reputation can be kind of self-perpetuating. Their parents seem to have been very wealthy and influential, and their praise and connections probably helped to launch Kamilah into the world in a way that got her a lot of attention and admiration from the right people who were also influential. Not to mention that confidence can carry someone a long way, and the al-Jamil parents certainly instilled more confidence in Kamilah than in Tahani. Our perception of people's work and actions is often heavily colored by the image we already have of them, and even moreso in celebrity culture. So an artist like Kamilah is talked up as being brilliant, and then everything they do gets attention and fans interpret it as brilliant and all the hype gains them even more followers etc. etc., even if the same piece wouldn't get much attention if it were presented as being by a less-known artist. It's a bit exaggerated for effect on the show, but the concept is not false.

[Ohiopirate02]

1 hour ago, Enginerd said:

That part actually rings kind of true for me. Popularity and reputation can be kind of self-perpetuating. Their parents seem to have been very wealthy and influential, and their praise and connections probably helped to launch Kamilah into the world in a way that got her a lot of attention and admiration from the right people who were also influential. Not to mention that confidence can carry someone a long way, and the al-Jamil parents certainly instilled more confidence in Kamilah than in Tahani. Our perception of people's work and actions is often heavily colored by the image we already have of them, and even moreso in celebrity culture. So an artist like Kamilah is talked up as being brilliant, and then everything they do gets attention and fans interpret it as brilliant and all the hype gains them even more followers etc. etc., even if the same piece wouldn't get much attention if it were presented as being by a less-known artist. It's a bit exaggerated for effect on the show, but the concept is not false.

I saw the whole Kamilah exhibition as a dig at the bullshit found in the art world.  People are lining up to get her omelettes as a performance piece.  It sounds totally absurd if you don't buy into the art world hype.  Kamilah's paintings were not really all that great.  I know art is subjective, but it looked like the set designers were trying to create bad art.  Janet and Jason's quest around the museum talking about the value of the different paintings.  They looked really similar but had wildly different values.  

[thuganomics85]

As I said before, Tahani's parents are the worst.  I certainly hope they have nice spots in The Bad Place and it special attention from Shawn, Vicky, and Trevor!

Definitely a more emotional episode compared to the norm and I was a bit bummed that they separated out the cast again for this one as well, but I thought it was good steps for both Tahani and Eleanor.  Tahani and Kamilah seem to have a better understanding now of each other, and will hopefully continue to get better (even if Kamilah didn't say she was sorry as well, I think the bit of her giving Tahani co-credit for something at the end was a big step for her), and I liked seeing more of Tahani/Chidi, since those two don't usually interact by themselves.

Eleanor's story with her now undead mom was predictable, but I thought Kristen Bell did a good job at showing how it hurt Eleanor that her mom was always capable of being a decent mother/human being, but it felt like she just didn't put the effort into doing it with her.  Glad that's been all aired out, and hopefully her mom will finally get her act together.  Andrew Daly was also the perfect choice to play the rich, but geeky husband.

Not much of Jason/Janet here, but I loved Jason thinking the one picture was about boobs (and Chidi seeing it too), and Janet being pulled over by a cop in order to compliment how perfect her driving was.

[Bruinsfan]

6 hours ago, strippedhalo said:

Partly that, partly that Leslie Grossman is only 9 years older than Kristen Bell. I was initially surprised that they didn't attempt to age Leslie up even a little, but I got over it pretty quickly.

She's giving me whiplash because here she's supposed to be old enough to have Kristen Bell as a daughter, but over on American Horror Story (where she looks older) her character is treated like a Millennial in her early 20s.

2 hours ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I was waiting for him to say something funny about it but he never answered! I was thinking of Janet's ex-boyfriend turned Mindy's boyfriend who had wind chimes instead. But I suppose Janet made him, so maybe a different story than Michael.

Or they just have different needs than humans. He might be able to "shoot one out" if he ate something, for example. 

I'd think Eleanor might have noticed and mentioned something if Chris Baker's human suit had any obvious anatomical irregularities. Then again, maybe things getting too romantic is of the situations he'd respond to by ripping his shirt off and announcing he was going to the gym.

I could swear I heard Michael say a line about over-eating and food going to his thighs while they were still in the Bad Place in Season 2, though I suppose that doesn't necessarily prove anything about his biological functions.

[cpcathy]

Michael mentioned his "hanging bits" in season two, so, take from that what you will.

[Fukui San]

1 hour ago, cpcathy said:

Michael mentioned his "hanging bits" in season two, so, take from that what you will.

Wind chimes?

[andipandi]

5 hours ago, ae2 said:

We know that demons are given human suits, as opposed to inhabiting humans or somehow visually masking their appearance. Considering the human suits are otherwise visually impeccable, I would assume he does, yes.

However, his bathroom conversation makes it sound as if the suits are not fully functional.

angels do not, and presumably devils are fallen angels, so one would expect Michael to not. I am reminded of the scene in Dogma with Alan Rickman's Metatron complaining bitterly about the lack of privates. "Metatron : See? I'm as anatomically impaired as a Ken doll. Now make yourself useful and gimme that towel, will you?"

[applecrisp]

9 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Tahani's parents really are/were horrible people

Glad she and her sister finally realized what they had done. 

Eleanor's mom looks almost the same age as her.  I know part of that is how she dresses and acts and tries to make it seem like she is younger, but still was distracting to me. 

Pretty good episode.  Not my favorite but had its moments. 

The only thing about the Eleanor/mom storyline is I know I have seen that exact same plot used before about the changed mom and the daughter being upset she never changed for her, but I can't pinpoint in my brain was other show it was.  And I don't mean the kind of same idea, but almost exact same story

Teachers.

[shantown]

Can I just appreciate a show that within 22 minutes sparks conversations ranging from "What do we owe to each other?" to "Do you think Michael has a human penis?" 

[Mabinogia]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Despite Eleanor's hatred of "normal" stuff, I think that she always wanted to have that sweet, wholesome normal family life, going back to the toothbrush family she got emotionally invested in last season. 

I think she hated normal stuff because she learned pretty early on that it wasn't an option for her. It was easier to "hate" it than to wish for it, knowing it wouldn't happen. So when she saw that it could have happened, but for some reason her mom didn't make it happen for her, it hurt that much more. 

It is a very real thing, so I'm not surprised that many shows have done it. 

Edited November 2, 2018 by Mabinogia

[Chaos Theory]

I don’t think you are morally obligated to forgive anyone who has done you harm but those who do are often happier for it.  Anger and hate helps no one even if it is well deserved.  That has always been Eleanor’s story and to an extent Tahani’s.  What good did holding on to their anger do either of them?  

Edited November 3, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[whiporee]

11 hours ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Fiona finds out her mom has a new family, same story, wonders why her mom couldn't be like that for her when she was younger.  Though its more sad for Fiona because she was left with a bunch of kids to raise on her own, unlike Eleanor.

I don't think Monica was ever shown to be anything other than crazy and destructive.  it could have been the Ian plot where they found out Frank wasn't Ian's dad, or that there was a normal Gallagher family out there, but I don't think it was Monica. Or if it was, it certainly didn't last. 

[Dowel Jones]

6 hours ago, cpcathy said:

Michael mentioned his "hanging bits" in season two, so, take from that what you will.

On the other hand, the project he designed  for the other architecht had no bathrooms whatsoever.  If you don't need one...

Speaking of podcasts, I liked Michael's last line in the car after he tells Eleanor that she actually told Chidi that she loved him:  "You want to listen to a podcast, maybe?"

[whiporee]

Before I forget, this was my favorite moment of the show. When Tahani hugs Kamila, Kamila acts just like a little girl. Voice and mannerisms and everything. It was perfect. 

That actress was on he podcast, and she didn't mention it as being played that way. But if you rewatch, watch that moment -- it's like they are both little kids again. Very neat and absolutely just right for that moment of reconnection. 

As for the overarching points, there's something else going on. I kind of get the feeling they still might be in the Bad Place, and this is an even more elaborate torture to show them that nothing really matters. The only reason I doubt that is because it's harsher than Shurr usually wants to go. But as I'm watching, I'm sort of thinking about a Woody Allen movie where a writer converses with his characters (Deconstructing Harry maybe?) or the end of Big Fish.  I think all of this stuff we're seeing is too simplistic, and unless the writers have gotten very lazy, it doesn't fit with the complex narrative they've had. 

Like I said, i don't know what it is. But I'm pretty sure it's something. 

[PityFree]

14 hours ago, strippedhalo said:

Partly that, partly that Leslie Grossman is only 9 years older than Kristen Bell. I was initially surprised that they didn't attempt to age Leslie up even a little, but I got over it pretty quickly.

 I explained that to myself by assuming that Eleanor’s mom—being one of ”those basic, wine-drinking, PTA moms in yoga pants” would have a dermatologist on speed dial dial and would be spending a little bit of Dave’s money on fillers and Botox to look younger.

[ae2]

9 hours ago, whiporee said:

As for the overarching points, there's something else going on. I kind of get the feeling they still might be in the Bad Place, and this is an even more elaborate torture to show them that nothing really matters. The only reason I doubt that is because it's harsher than Shurr usually wants to go. But as I'm watching, I'm sort of thinking about a Woody Allen movie where a writer converses with his characters (Deconstructing Harry maybe?) or the end of Big Fish.  I think all of this stuff we're seeing is too simplistic, and unless the writers have gotten very lazy, it doesn't fit with the complex narrative they've had. 

Like I said, i don't know what it is. But I'm pretty sure it's something. 

As the show goes on it becomes harder to pull these twists without undermining everything we've witnessed for now three seasons. That's not to say it won't happen, but the potential risk of upending the audience becomes more severe.

For example...

Spoiler

I've seen a theory thrown out a few times that Michael is the one really being tortured and that the core four are the real demons. This is a really fun theory and would have made an equally great twist to that at the end of S1. But now that we're heading into the end of S3 it would overwrite all the emotions we've invested into the characters.

 

Still, I'm sure something big is planned, because this season seems much to straightforward so far!

[Guest]

"I love sitting on the thing and....shooting one out."

[Blakeston]

The thing that I found frustrating about Eleanor's mother's alleged redemption was that I didn't get the impression that her morality had actually changed that much.

Did she really grow a conscience? It seemed more like she simply found the lifestyle of a suburban housewife to be more comfortable than she expected, so she stayed put.

It makes sense that security, and relaxed activities like yoga, would appeal to her more now that she's older. That doesn't mean that she's not selfish and awful anymore.

Obviously this is a big step up from her dog-killing days, but that's really not saying much.

[cpcathy]

Nothing will redeem her from dog-killing, but I got the sense she's trying, and it's a day to day struggle.

[Bruinsfan]

She appeared to be an involved mom who put in effort to make her kid's school as good as possible. That moves the focus of her priorities and concerns at least one step further out than they were when she was raising Eleanor.

[possibilities]

On 11/2/2018 at 7:59 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t think you are morally obligated to forgive anyone who has done you harm but those who do are often happier for it.  Anger and hate helps no one even if it is well deserved.  That has always been Eleanor’s story and to an extent Tahani’s.  What good did holding on to their anger do either of them?  

I agree with you about this, but I do think that sometimes people stay angry and bitter because it's the only thing they've got the pattern for, as it's the only thing they've actually seen modeled. And also, sometimes the anger is the only way they know how to feel that they deserve better. It's a painful way to express that knowledge, it doesn't feel as good as love, and it doesn't get you love, but it's better than just having all the will beaten out of you, and not even knowing anything is wrong.

[possibilities]

I didn't really take Eleanor to be forgiving per se. It was more like she's letting go. She realized she wasn't accomplishing anything by trying to hurt her mother, and that it would hurt the new kid if she went too hard on her mom. The greater good in this situation was to encourage her mother to really commit to being a good person, and for Eleanor to turn her focus onto herself instead of staying hooked into her mother who was never going to give her what she needed.

Moving from anger to just being sad and feeling her pain was actually liberating for Eleanor. When she stopped fighting it, she actually realized she does want to be able to love someone, and not just be bitter and angry and push people away like she has habitually done as a defense.

I thought it was impressively NOT a moralistic argument. It was a "how does she heal herself?" argument.

[Zuleikha]

Quote

While I think that the in-show reason Kamilah and Eleanor's mom didn't apologize is that they aren't good people yet, I think the meta-reason is that the Soul Squad is supposed to be helping people just to help people without any kind of reward.

I don't think we've seen anything to indicate Kamilah is a bad person. She has a bad relationship with Tahani, but that's a result of her own damage because their parents were awful wankers. Kamilah didn't treat Tahani lovingly, but she also didn't seem to go out of her way to hurt Tahani. I think Kamilah was honest (or thought she was being honest) when she said she didn't think about Tahani at all... although this episode indicates there was some emotional pain and wistfulness that came into her art (and possibly motivated her performance art choices being based on forming connections with strangers).

I thought Kamilah basically did apologize when she joined the hug and agreed the parents were wankers. 

Eleanor's mom is more complicated. I'm in the camp that thinks the show didn't handle that plot well, and I'm not fully clear on what they were trying to say. The mom changed, but I agree with Blakeston that she didn't seem to get better so much as she found a sugar daddy who she liked. There's no indication that she has a job, so she's leading a pretty cushy life of a nice house, a nice partner, a lot of freedom, and a small amount of domestic chores and parenting. 

In terms of the overall Soul Squad mission, it's nothing that would add up to enough points to counterbalance the prior damage she did. She didn't even try to make amends with Eleanor.

The episode was sweet, but not funny. I still remain unclear on the purpose of the season. If the goal is to challenge the whole points system (as we all thought), I need the show to get there fast. I have a feeling this season is going to be a enjoyable and frothy enough to keep watching, but ultimately a miss for me.

Edited November 5, 2018 by Zuleikha

[Chaos Theory]

Didn’t Tahani say she understood why Kamilh would never apologize because it would stifle her own artistic ability.  And in her own way she did.  A hug and Giving Tahani credit for her art is a round about way for apologizing.  Sometime you will never hear the words “I’m sorry” and yet the meaning behing acts are the same.  

[Mabinogia]

9 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Eleanor's mom is more complicated. I'm in the camp that thinks the show didn't handle that plot well, and I'm not fully clear on what they were trying to say. The mom changed, but I agree with Blakeston that she didn't seem to get better so much as she found a sugar daddy who she liked. There's no indication that she has a job, so she's leading a pretty cushy life of a nice house, a nice partner, a lot of freedom, and a small amount of domestic chores and parenting. 

This is Eleanor's story (the Soul Squad's story, not their families) so it's about what she got from this. She learned that her mom didn't try hard for her and there is absolutely nothing she could do to change that, and while getting back at her mother might make her feel better in the short term, the best thing to do, the right thing to do, is to try to give that little girl a better chance than she had. If her mother really is willing to try this time, then Eleanor needs to step aside and let it happen. It's time to let go. I saw it more as learning to say goodbye rather than thinking her mom was now a good person. It was about forgiving her enough to wish her well. 

I actually like it because, up till now, the vibe of the show was that your parents make you good or bad but we don't know Mom's parents. But we know that when her situation was shitty she was a terrible person but when her situation was cushy, she found it pretty easy to be good. We are as influenced by our present circumstances as we are from our upbringing. 

If you really think about it, our Soul Squad hasn't been terribly successful in their quest. 

Jason tried to save his dad. That failed but he did manage to help Pillboi. You can't save everyone, so you have to try to save the ones with the most promise. 

Eleanor went to save her mother only to find that she has already found her way out. All Eleanor could do was encourage her to stay on the path. 

IDK how Tahani was meant to be helping Kamilah. It felt more like she'd gone there to confront her. But in the end she did make tiny amends and they both realized where their animosity came from so I guess that one is a win. 

I'm dying to see what Chidi's quest will be. 

[DocTerv]

 While I still enjoy the funny bits, I find myself longing for a flying shrimp or a rainbow unicorn. We need more Niednagel. 

[Notwisconsin]

On 11/2/2018 at 3:06 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I know art is subjective, but it looked like the set designers were trying to create bad art.

Yeah, they probably were. I've seen awful art selling for hundreds of thousands at places like the Armory show in New York or the Venice Biennalle...and don't get me to go on about David Shrigley (ugh!)

Edited November 4, 2018 by Notwisconsin

[Johnny Dollar]

A watery-eyed Kristen Bell gets me every time. Her eyes turn into shiny black pearls with magical powers. 

[whiporee]

16 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

I don't think we've seen anything to indicate Kamilah is a bad person.

"Tahani? You're a cocktail waitress now? I think that's a good step for you."

[Bruinsfan]

I think that hug was the first indication I've ever seen that Kamilah might have hints of a good person buried somewhere within her. Spitefully announcing that the show was over because of Tahani to turn the crowd against her fits in far better with my impression of the character.

[Harry24]

On 11/1/2018 at 10:15 PM, ae2 said:

   o              o

 

        O  O

Now, unlike Jason, all I see is a horse's face.

[Mabinogia]

1 minute ago, Harry24 said:

Now, unlike Jason, all I see is a horse's face.

I see a cow, but then, unlike Chidi, I drink dairy milk because I'm a good person lol

[BobH]

Sometimes this show scares me...

(and here I thought they called him that because they cheat off him)

Edited November 5, 2018 by BobH

[Enginerd]

On 11/2/2018 at 12:06 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I saw the whole Kamilah exhibition as a dig at the bullshit found in the art world.  People are lining up to get her omelettes as a performance piece.  It sounds totally absurd if you don't buy into the art world hype.  Kamilah's paintings were not really all that great.  I know art is subjective, but it looked like the set designers were trying to create bad art.

I agree that it was meant to look mediocre at best, as both a commentary on art world ridiculousness and to show that Kamilah is not, in fact, infinitely better at everything than Tahani, she just gets better hype. Kamilah is soooooo pretentious. You could really see how the constant praise she's gotten has allowed her to build up a whole mystique, growing in confidence and bullshittery. So now she's developed a combination of reputation and calibrated performance such that she can say nonsense like "all your fears are now mine", but she does it in a dramatic voice and with an intense look, and the response is "so profound!" instead of "ooooookay, weirdo."

 

Her art was pretty simple. Circles and stars representing united parents and children driven apart. EGGS, which are an obvious representation of offspring, getting broken to make omelets. I suppose the raved-over omelets represent her "genius" art...can't make omelets without breaking a few eggs, aka her and Tahani.
 

Are we really meant to think Dave is a great guy? It's one thing to not care if your girlfriend doesn't respect identity law or live up to her charity auction promises, because whatever, but to choose as a mother figure to your child someone who treated her own child so horribly and continued to let her daughter believe she is dead?!?! How do you ever trust someone like that with your kid, however honest she is about it? Does he know about the dog? Surely there are other options for confident, selfish lovers.

[Dowel Jones]

3 hours ago, Harry24 said:

On 11/1/2018 at 7:15 PM, ae2 said:

   o              o

 

        O  O

Now, unlike Jason, all I see is a horse's face.

I see a 2-3-7-10 split and somebody is buying beer after this game.

[Blue Plastic]

On 11/2/2018 at 12:36 AM, GaT said:

Huh, it seems that I'm in the minority about this episode, but I didn't find it that interesting. In fact, I'm starting to not like this show anymore.

Oh, I'm glad somebody else said it!  This season is just not as fun as it used to be.  I guess I just don't like the characters being on earth.  I really thought it would just be a simulation of earth to find out whether the Fab 4 could change, but apparently it's supposed to be real and it's not just as good that way IMO.  The only thing that made me laugh was Michael forgetting to put toilets in his architectural plans and trying to cover up that strange omission by saying how much he just loves to sit on the toilet and shoot one out.  LOL!  Yes, I'm 12 (not really).  I don't want to let these characters go, but it feels aimless to watch them supposedly have no hope of going to The Good Place themselves yet wander around trying to make sure that their friends and relatives do.

[Lois Sandborne]

On 11/2/2018 at 5:43 AM, Ailianna said:

I also think that Eleanor and Tahani are further along the path to being good people than Donna and Kamilah are, though.  So Eleanor and Tahani were able to see past their own issues, while their families were not.  

They're further along than me as well, then, because I still thought both Kamilah and Donna/Diana were wads at the end of this episode, and not deserving of forgiveness without showing some more active sense of remorse.  Yes, for the show's purposes this is about our final four becoming better themselves, but it didn't make any sense to me that a hug and changed title was enough from Kamilah after decades of gleeful grandstanding at Tahani's expense, or that Eleanor would this easily be able to bury all of her mother's truly terrible transgressions because Donna now has the potential to not ruin some other child's life in such a spectacular fashion.  Maybe I need to spend a couple of centuries living among flying shrimp and froyo on demand, and also be dead, but in my real life I don't think I'd be big enough to let water that high under my bridge without more from the other party.

23 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

Kamilah didn't treat Tahani lovingly, but she also didn't seem to go out of her way to hurt Tahani.

In just this episode, when Tahani does nothing but say she doesn't want an omelet, Kamilah loudly cancels her exhibit installation hack-show and blames Tahani so that she'll be publicly shamed and hated.

[Zuleikha]

In just this episode, when Tahani does nothing but say she doesn't want an omelet, Kamilah loudly cancels her exhibit installation hack-show and blames Tahani so that she'll be publicly shamed and hated.

That's putting an intention on Kamilah's actions that we have no idea whether or not was there. For that to be malicious, you have to assume that the show is portraying Kamilah as being a con artist who doesn't actually care about her performance. If you instead believe that the show is showing Kamilah to be a sincere artist (regardless of whether her actual artistic talent is overrated), then it is likely Kamilah was not being malicious at all. Tahani really did ruin the performance by interrupting and refusing to participate, and Kamilah was simply speaking from her heart.

Also, I wouldn't call that Kamilah going out of her way to hurt Tahani. Tahani is the one who showed up, crashed the line, and demanded an emotional conversation. Generally, Kamilah seems to be simply living her life. If Tahani also lived her life, Kamilah would never do anything hurtful. 

I'm not actually sure the show wants us to see that Kamilah's talent is overrated either. Because of the show's tone, it's hard to say. But the writers had Kamilah have a real effect on Chidi, so I think we are supposed to believe that Kamilah's performances really are powerful for those who participate.

[DrScottie]

11 minutes ago, Blue Plastic said:

I don't want to let these characters go, but it feels aimless to watch them supposedly have no hope of going to The Good Place themselves yet wander around trying to make sure that their friends and relatives do.

They think they don't have a chance, but this proves Michael's hypothesis that humans can be good if pushed in the right direction and it would even show that they would still choose to be good despite knowing eternal damnation awaits them. It really is the perfect test for moral desert and they are passing it with flying colors. 

I'm still intrigued probably because Groundhog Day is my favorite movie. Right now, the show has essentially moved into the second half of the movie where the more existentialist aspects come into play. Phil Connors has little reason to believe that helping all the citizens of the town will make any difference in getting out of his time loop, yet chooses to do it anyway. While he did a lot of self-improvement just to impress Rita, he's come to know the people of Punxsutawney as friends/family even though they don't even know him. That's how he is putting meaning in his presumably immortal existence.  They won't even remember it and it's thus an apparent exercise in futility, but he helps them nonetheless. The Soul Squad has been told they are doomed, and they've found meaning in trying to prevent those they care about from avoiding the same fate. The message resonates well with me and I'm liking it, even if like Groundhog Day, it's not as funny as when Phil Connors was a jerk or embracing hedonism and nihilism like he was in the first half of the movie. 

[theatremouse]

On 11/3/2018 at 10:11 PM, Zuleikha said:

In terms of the overall Soul Squad mission, it's nothing that would add up to enough points to counterbalance the prior damage she did. She didn't even try to make amends with Eleanor.

Unlike Jason in the previous episode, Eleanor didn't go find her mother to Soul Squad her. She went there to confront her for not being dead. So the points or lack thereof don't really matter. That wasn't the purpose of this visit.

[Athena]

On 11/4/2018 at 8:34 PM, Enginerd said:

So now she's developed a combination of reputation and calibrated performance such that she can say nonsense like "all your fears are now mine", but she does it in a dramatic voice and with an intense look, and the response is "so profound!" instead of "ooooookay, weirdo."

What I found interesting in the Kamilah and Chidi exchange is that Chidi has shown no indication of being a fan of Kamilah and was indifferent to her as a celebrity. However, when faced with her "Your fears are now mine," he comes away from it feeling better and with a star struck glow. I infer that the writers want us to believe that Kamilah is genuinely charismatic and confident. I think both Tahani and her sister are good looking, charismatic, and probably equally creative/talented growing up, but Kamilah was favoured and perhaps nurtured more artistically. Tahani is naturally charismatic as well, but her insecurities have affected how she goes through life looking for validation. Kamilah has less of these insecurities and has channeled her issues into her art. As someone else mentioned earlier, her privilege has added to her hype. Kamilah is an A-list celebrity in the Good Place universe and I don't think she got there without anything. Art is subjective and while she has a dedicated fan base, there are definitely those that don't care as much e.g. Eleanor. Kamilah is basically like any other celebrity.

[Enginerd]

One thing I find funny is that whenever we see Tahani's parents, their own clothes, their home, and the artwork on their walls are a very safe, traditional, staid, conservative posh kind of look. They praised Kamilah's more avant-garde work and trashed everything Tahani did, but their own choices aren't avant-garde at all, unless they think having two daughters and raising them in Jacob-and-Esau fashion is an avant-garde performance piece. They seem much more like Tahani.

[Amarsir]

12 hours ago, DrScottie said:

I'm still intrigued probably because Groundhog Day is my favorite movie. Right now, the show has essentially moved into the second half of the movie where the more existentialist aspects come into play. Phil Connors has little reason to believe that helping all the citizens of the town will make any difference in getting out of his time loop, yet chooses to do it anyway.

It's one of my favorites too. I never thought of that before but I love your comparison.

[Lois Sandborne]

15 hours ago, Zuleikha said:

If you instead believe that the show is showing Kamilah to be a sincere artist

I don't.

[BoogieBurns]

16 hours ago, BobH said:

Sometimes this show scares me...

(and here I thought they called him that because they cheat off him)

Michael - He who is like God

Eleanor - Bright Shiny One

Tahani - Congratulations (Beautiful)

Jason - Healer (remember his hand-to-heart thing?)

Kamilah - Perfection

No reliable explanation of what Janet represents, maybe God has been gracious. But for Mike Schur to say he was just blindly typing letters to come up with Eleanor, he sure did type the right letters for that character.

Interesting one... Shawn - gift from God.

And we know from the podcast, Simone was named after Sim One, or the first simulation. But the name also means "listener"

Gen is short for Hydrogen, but also means Spring.

Is there a chance everyone is from The Good Place? Even Vicki means victorious. Hmmmm... food for speculation...

Only name that means "dark, black" is Mindy!

[Mabinogia]

20 hours ago, Enginerd said:

Are we really meant to think Dave is a great guy? It's one thing to not care if your girlfriend doesn't respect identity law or live up to her charity auction promises, because whatever, but to choose as a mother figure to your child someone who treated her own child so horribly and continued to let her daughter believe she is dead?!?! How do you ever trust someone like that with your kid, however honest she is about it? Does he know about the dog? Surely there are other options for confident, selfish lovers.

Wow, that's a good point. He's either kind of a dick or dumber than dirt. If he truly did know about Mom's background, that she was a shit mother and changed her identity to hid from her own daughter, why on earth would he let her anywhere near his? Sure, it seems to have worked out, but I wouldn't have let it get to the working out point. I guess I'm just not that forgiving, and would be far more careful about who I let into my kids life. You want to bang the questionably hot blonde, have at it, but don't introduce her to your kid after finding out she's a hard core con artist. 

[snarktini]

On 11/4/2018 at 5:34 PM, Enginerd said:

Are we really meant to think Dave is a great guy? It's one thing to not care if your girlfriend doesn't respect identity law or live up to her charity auction promises, because whatever, but to choose as a mother figure to your child someone who treated her own child so horribly and continued to let her daughter believe she is dead?!?! How do you ever trust someone like that with your kid, however honest she is about it? Does he know about the dog? Surely there are other options for confident, selfish lovers.

18 hours ago, Mabinogia said:

Wow, that's a good point. He's either kind of a dick or dumber than dirt. If he truly did know about Mom's background, that she was a shit mother and changed her identity to hid from her own daughter, why on earth would he let her anywhere near his? Sure, it seems to have worked out, but I wouldn't have let it get to the working out point. I guess I'm just not that forgiving, and would be far more careful about who I let into my kids life. You want to bang the questionably hot blonde, have at it, but don't introduce her to your kid after finding out she's a hard core con artist. 

I missed this nuance, and it's a great point. While watching, I assumed he knew Donna had faked her death and was living under an assumed name, but must have glossed over / didn't hear / handwaved the part that he knew Donna had a daughter that she bailed on and let believe she was dead. The former, many people would overlook. The latter? I hope not.

Maybe this is how we're not supposed to feel bad for Dave. They both suck and deserve each other. (Not that the girl deserves any of it.)