S02.E15: The Car

[blondiec0332]

11 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But I was fairly alone in being on her side on the William thing, too.  

I was on Rebecca's side as well. She knew next to nothing about William.  She thought she was protecting her son.  As any parent would have done. And as for telling Randall when he was older I'm willing to cut her break on that as well.  She didn't know where William was or what kind of life he was living then.  Why tell Randall something that could have led to disappointment?

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Can't they dig year 'round in freezing climates, with bulldozers?

Yes, a person can't dig with a shovel but heavy equipment can.  I had relatives here in the upper Midwest buried in December and March.  But they weren't doing that in any event, they took the urn with them obviously.  It was ill-thought out all the way around, no winter wear, etc.

8 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Like what?  Did he have mountains of stuff that he kept somewhere besides the house?

The only place he might have a lot of stuff is a garage, which I don't remember seeing but they might have one behind the house. 

[Clanstarling]

Did Randall explicitly say Rebecca had given him the watch? Or could his words have meant he was just given permission to wear it to the funeral - which was my take at the time. Have we seen it on present day Randall? 

[ShadowFacts]

19 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Did Randall explicitly say Rebecca had given him the watch? Or could his words have meant he was just given permission to wear it to the funeral - which was my take at the time. Have we seen it on present day Randall? 

I don't know if it's been seen on Randall, but didn't Kevin say to Charlotte (? name -- the one-night stand) that the necklace was the only thing he had of his father?  Although it would be very like the Randall we've seen at all the younger ages to offer the watch to Kevin to mollify him. 

[Blakeston]

I can understand why the writers didn't include anything about Jack and Rebecca checking to make sure Kevin didn't sneak back into the house. The audience already knows he isn't home, and if Jack and/or Rebecca had checked down there, a lot of people would be wondering, "Wait, Rebecca just found out that Kevin is out for the night, what are they doing?"

Certain things that we would do in real life aren't going to make their way onto the screen. I really don't think it has anything to do with the writers not having children themselves.

As for Rebecca's aging, I've heard a lot of people say that they think she acts older than 67, but I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that she looks older. To me, she just looks like a 30-something woman with a bad wig, and some goop on her face. No amount of hunched-over walking or creakiness in her voice is going to change that.

[luna1122]

This pic does really show the prosthetics on her face...I cannot see those on my TV! :::need better TV::::

Aging is a bitch.

[Ohiopirate02]

I have no problem with the aging makeup, but that wig is horrendous.  The problem is the color.  The picture of Helen Mirren shows her gray roots, and the wig is too uniform in color.  There should be some gray peaking in to make it look more natural.  No one's hair color is that uniform, even those that dye their hair.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

1 hour ago, Clanstarling said:

Did Randall explicitly say Rebecca had given him the watch? Or could his words have meant he was just given permission to wear it to the funeral - which was my take at the time. Have we seen it on present day Randall? 

Kevin: Where'd you get Dad's watch? 

Randall: Mom brought it back from the hospital.

Kevin: So you just decided it's yours now?

Randall: I asked her. She said it was fine.

Kevin: Of course she did. Mom, did you say Randall could have Dad's watch? 

Rebecca: Kevin.

Kevin: You did. Wow.

[Jax7917]

In all fairness to Rebecca, her husband literally just died . If my kids asked me if they can have their father's watch, I probably wouldn't even be listening to the question. I would just say yea because I really wouldn't care at that moment. 

I liked both the episodes, my only problem was the family's lack of emotions, especially Rebecca and Kevin. I get that everyone deals with grief differently, but I just didn't feel the emotion from Mandy. I would have liked more tears and overall shock factor. And teen Kevin just acts the same no matter the episode, no matter the scene. 

And.. I think they do a great job on Mandy's face, but I agree with the poster above that said the hair throws her off. Does for me too

Edited February 9, 2018 by Jaclyn88

[chocolatine]

7 hours ago, Katy M said:

An service at the cemetery would have involved no burial since it's early February in Pittburgh and the ground would have been too frozen to dig. 

 

5 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Can't they dig year 'round in freezing climates, with bulldozers?

Bulldozers for sure. I don't think I've ever seen a hand-dug grave in the 20+ years I've been attending funerals. Also, some religions/cultures require interment within 24 hours of death. You can't just not bury people during winter months.

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I have no problem with the aging makeup, but that wig is horrendous.  The problem is the color.  The picture of Helen Mirren shows her gray roots, and the wig is too uniform in color.  There should be some gray peaking in to make it look more natural.  No one's hair color is that uniform, even those that dye their hair.

I hate the wig too. It just looks limp to me. 

2 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

In all fairness to Rebecca, her husband literally just died . If my kids asked me if they can have their father's watch, I probably wouldn't even be listening to the question. I would just say yea because I really wouldn't care at that moment. 

I liked both the episodes, my only problem was the family's lack of emotions, especially Rebecca and Kevin. I get that everyone deals with grief differently, but I just didn't feel the emotion from Mandy. I would have liked more tears and overall shock factor. And teen Kevin just acts the same no matter the episode, no matter the scene. 

And.. I think they do a great job on Mandy's face, but I agree with the poster above that said the hair throws her off. Does for me too

 

I don't have a problem with Rebecca's "lack" of emotions, because I get it. While I haven't (thank God, knock wood) been in that situation, I have been in several others where I was the one who had to be strong for my family. I kept my emotions in check, and mastered silent screaming in bathrooms. But in public or with the family, during those times I am always more or less calm and collected. It's not necessarily healthy, but it is the way I'm built.

Edited February 9, 2018 by Clanstarling

[JudyObscure]

17 hours ago, arabidopsis said:

All this to say, people have an incredible range of experiencing and expressing their grief – often completely unpredictable to both themselves and others before they were thrust into it, and I find it very difficult to work up judgement for any of it.  So in the context of the characters on this show, Rebecca honking her horn, Kevin lashing out unfairly at Randall, Kate’s resentment of her dog (not something that she made a choice to feel, nor should she be expected to work through rationally at this stage of her grieving), all within days of the sudden, horrific loss of one of the most important people in their lives?  Not only do I have zero judgement for any of it, but I find them all remarkably put together, given the circumstances. Perhaps if they had been able to fall completely apart at the time, they would have been better able to work through their devastation and not still be stuck in it 20 years later, but who can say?

Regarding the watch, I understand that Rebecca is in shock and grief and doesn't feel like making decisions, but almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring -- it's usually the number one memento and is often either handed down to the eldest same sex child or negotiated carefully.  It's important.  At some level you would think Rebecca would have known this, after all, she wasn't about to casually give Kate her necklace.  When Randall asked for the watch,  I think it would have been the perfect time for the classic parental delaying statement: "We'll see."

And with that said please don't accuse me of "passing judgement," on Rebecca.  These are not real people, they are characters in a TV show and this is the forum made for discussing the show, the acting, and the writing.  In real life I would never question anyone's manner of  grieving, but it's a show and I am questioning some of the writing -- please don't judge me for it.

[Katy M]

50 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Bulldozers for sure. I don't think I've ever seen a hand-dug grave in the 20+ years I've been attending funerals. Also, some religions/cultures require interment within 24 hours of death. You can't just not bury people during winter months.

Well, all I know is that all 4 of my grandparents died between December and March and interment waited until it was warmer.

 

25 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

but almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring

I had no idea.

[TV Diva Queen]

regarding the cemetery:  maybe a little bit of Jack's ashed were actually being buried because Rebecca doesn't want to be cremated and this way they can still be together.  We did this with my SIL - never married, no kids, and didn't want to be alone: she was cremated and buried "on top" of her mother.  Had her ashes in an urn, and then place that in those cement vaults.  This is all above board too, funeral director worked with the Catholic cemetery to get it done.  Cost a couple grand.  

[Crs97]

My dad never even wore a watch so I didn’t know it was that big of a deal.  Rebecca knew Kevin had the necklace.  Frankly, Kate is the odd one out unless she was given his wedding ring.  To me, Kevin seems like the jerk by demanding the watch when he is already wearing the necklace.  I don’t know if we were supposed to see it as further evidence of Kevin being left out or Kevin being mired in his victim status.  Kate and he have worked that angle nicely so far.

[TwoGrayTabbies]

A man’s watch might be a big deal if it’s an heirloom, or if it’s expensive, or unique in some way, but Jack seems like a drug store Timex kind of guy.  He’d have something practical and non-extravagant.

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, Katy M said:

Well, all I know is that all 4 of my grandparents died between December and March and interment waited until it was warmer.

If this was quite a while ago, perhaps the cemeteries in your area did not have access to the heavy equipment required.  I am old enough that most of my grandparents were buried at a time when hand digging was done.  Being a gravedigger was a thing, and was done with shovels.  In winter, it couldn't be done, they would have to wait for thaw.  Back before refrigeration, ice cutting of frozen lakes was also a thing, so I guess there was a means of preservation of sorts. 

7 minutes ago, Crs97 said:

My dad never even wore a watch so I didn’t know it was that big of a deal.  Rebecca knew Kevin had the necklace.  Frankly, Kate is the odd one out unless she was given his wedding ring.  To me, Kevin seems like the jerk by demanding the watch when he is already wearing the necklace.  I don’t know if we were supposed to see it as further evidence of Kevin being left out or Kevin being mired in his victim status.  Kate and he have worked that angle nicely so far.

Kevin still might have his model airplane collection that he did with his dad, if we're to believe what he told that widow in the wake he crashed.  That would be a big deal; that represents a lot of time (those models are tedious to build) spent one-on-one with Jack, and goes against the narrative of Kevin having been left out.  Didn't he say he trashed it? 

[Katy M]

9 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

If this was quite a while ago, perhaps the cemeteries in your area did not have access to the heavy equipment required.  I am old enough that most of my grandparents were buried at a time when hand digging was done.  Being a gravedigger was a thing, and was done with shovels.  In winter, it couldn't be done, they would have to wait for thaw.  Back before refrigeration, ice cutting of frozen lakes was also a thing, so I guess there was a means of preservation of sorts. 

The last 3 were 2014, 2007 and 2005.

[MJS]

7 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

It was the way it was handled.  Randall asked and Rebecca agreed without so much as thought to the other two kids.

And Jack gave the necklace to Kevin without consulting the other kids. Sometimes a parent acts in the moment to give a child what they need, when they need it, and deals with the effects later.

[Katy M]

14 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Burial kind of disgusts me anyway but waiting months for it?  Ick.  Did they have all the funerals in the spring, too, or just hide the bodies til then?  

You generally have a memorial service at the time of death and then you have a smaller service at the gravesite in the winter.  There are storage facilities at funeral homes for the bodies where they are kept cold so they don't stink.

[Drumpf1737]

On 2/7/2018 at 10:10 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

On 2/7/2018 at 9:25 AM, Runningwild said:

The fact that Kevin was upset about it doesn’t bother me. I think Rebecca gave it away too quickly. Kevin is grieving too. He lost his father, his house, his future and now the only parent he’s got left is the one he knows prefers his brother over him. 

 

My mom gave away a lot of my dad’s stuff. I got a t-shirt. My brother got his cross, one nephew got his oboe, one nephew got his suits. I don’t know who ended up with his watch. And she gave all that away after the funeral. And his death was expected, not sudden like Jack’s. 

 

Exactly.  It does make sense that Randall got Jack's watch and Kevin got his dog tags, but I am  looking at this as an rational outsider.  In the midst of the grief and confusion of the Pearson family that week, I  can see how Kevin would react badly to seeing Randall wearing the watch.  He is a grieving 17 year old.  It probably never occurred to Rebecca to take time to explain this to Kevin.  With siblings, it is easy to forget what Mom and Dad already gave you when you see what they have given your brother (or sister). 

Kevin has not been helpful at all. As Randall said during their argument Kevin wasn't home...again. I get that Kevin is a grieving 17-year-old, but when do we hold him accountable for being an asshole. He treats his family like his entourage and he's 20 years from fame. Kevin has treated Randall badly all their lives so while I get that he's grieving too if you spend all your time shunning any affection offered you, eventually people will stop offering.

I have to rewatch but there's a scene in this episode where Kevin actually pulls away from Rebecca. I love adult Kevin, but Teen Kevin can suck it.

[GSMHvisitor]

15 minutes ago, Drumpf1737 said:

Kevin has not been helpful at all. As Randall said during their argument Kevin wasn't home...again. I get that Kevin is a grieving 17-year-old, but when do we hold him accountable for being an asshole. He treats his family like his entourage and he's 20 years from fame. Kevin has treated Randall badly all their lives so while I get that he's grieving too if you spend all your time shunning any affection offered you, eventually people will stop offering.

I have to rewatch but there's a scene in this episode where Kevin actually pulls away from Rebecca. I love adult Kevin, but Teen Kevin can suck it.

I do not remember such a scene, so if you find it, please point me towards it.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, Katy M said:

Well, all I know is that all 4 of my grandparents died between December and March and interment waited until it was warmer.

My father-in-law as well.

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Regarding the watch, I understand that Rebecca is in shock and grief and doesn't feel like making decisions, but almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring -- it's usually the number one memento and is often either handed down to the eldest same sex child or negotiated carefully.  It's important.  At some level you would think Rebecca would have known this, after all, she wasn't about to casually give Kate her necklace.  When Randall asked for the watch,  I think it would have been the perfect time for the classic parental delaying statement: "We'll see."

And with that said please don't accuse me of "passing judgement," on Rebecca.  These are not real people, they are characters in a TV show and this is the forum made for discussing the show, the acting, and the writing.  In real life I would never question anyone's manner of  grieving, but it's a show and I am questioning some of the writing -- please don't judge me for it.

I think we all understand that these are  not real people. But, for me anyway, if I don't connect to the characters in ways that feel real - that they seem real people - then I'm not interested in watching or discussing the show. For me the point of the writing, and then the acting, is to make the characters seem real. 

The fact that we're so engaged with the characters and what they say, how they react is a pretty good indication (in my opinion) that the writers and actors are doing a pretty decent job. There's still room to criticize, and there's plenty of that too.

Me personally, I'm a lot more comfortable with judging fictional characters than, say, the characters in The Crown (where the lines between reality and fiction get blurred), or on reality TV forums where we are talking about real people who might actually read the posts and feel hurt.  I'm not going to judge you - or anyone -  for judging the characters when I do it myself.  Others might be completely non-judgmental, and I like to hear those perspectives as well. They're kind of aspirational for me.

We do get caught up in how the show relates (or doesn't) to our own personal experiences - and that's mostly a good thing. That, for me, is the biggest part of what I enjoy in this forum. It is always interesting to me what I, and others, think are universal experiences or beliefs that aren't actually that universal (say, for example, the understanding that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring - new one for me). 

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, TwoGrayTabbies said:

A man’s watch might be a big deal if it’s an heirloom, or if it’s expensive, or unique in some way, but Jack seems like a drug store Timex kind of guy.  He’d have something practical and non-extravagant.

I think the reason it's become a special thing to so many men is not it's monetary value, but that it's something their father wore every day and the son has seen on his father's wrist since he was a child.  The son doesn't necessarily wear it, he just has it to remember  his father by, even if it's a Timex.

[biakbiak]

On 2/8/2018 at 2:08 PM, chocolatine said:

He could have returned before Jack came down. The point is that, as a parent, you can't take a teen's word from a conversation that happened hours earlier at face value. 

I can't imagine that Jack wouldn't have checked to see if he was home before writing the note and attaching it to the outside of the basement door where he would only see it if the door was closed.

[Snapdragon]

12 hours ago, luna1122 said:

I think chocolatine is right and they just don't know how to age Rebecca. She doesn't look any different at age 47 than age 28, and yeah, there IS a difference.

This.  I feel like the biggest problems with 47 year old Rebecca are her hair and her clothes.  I'm two years younger than the Big 3 and by the time I was in high school, I don't remember anyone's mom having hair that went past their shoulders.  Most had either a bob or a pixie cut or something else on the shorter end.  If they did have slightly longer hair, it certainly wasn't all 70s styled.  The clothing Rebecca wears also looks like it's from the 70s or really early 80s for the most part.  Absolutely nothing about middle aged Rebecca (or really middle aged Jack, for that matter) says 90s to me.  Rebecca needs some mom jeans, stat!

[arabidopsis]

6 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

And with that said please don't accuse me of "passing judgement," on Rebecca.  These are not real people, they are characters in a TV show and this is the forum made for discussing the show, the acting, and the writing.  In real life I would never question anyone's manner of  grieving, but it's a show and I am questioning some of the writing -- please don't judge me for it.

Judy - I apologize for the wording in my post that implied disparagement towards those who are critiquing character behavior in this episode. It wasn’t my intention to suggest that those commenters were awful people, but I can see how it could be interpreted that way. In hindsight, I probably should have avoided the “judgment,” since that can be a very loaded word.  To try to state my original thoughts in a more neutral manner, let me say this –  from my real-life experiences, I found the way that the characters were written in this episode to be well within the bell curve of believable human reactions.  When I am able to align fictional character behavior with ways that I can conceive real-life people acting, I tend to engage with their stories in the way I would if the story were true.  This is not the way everyone engages with fiction.  For others that do engage this way, they might not have felt the writing aligned with their experiences of real life grief, preventing them from jumping in with these characters.  In regard to the latter – I tend to feel this way about Jack – the big speeches,  the way other characters (not just his family) seem to buy into his saintly glow, the world’s fastest alcoholism recovery, etc.  It all keeps me from becoming emotionally attached to Jack as a character.  Of course, there is no objective truth in any of this – we are all different people reacting to fictional characters in our own ways due to some mysterious combination of nature and nurture, and that’s pretty cool – no judgment from me ;-)

If I were to critique an aspect of how the characters were written in this episode, it would be that they all seemed to have essentially the same core reaction to their grief – mostly holding it together, but leaning into their, shall we say “least heroic” impulses.  For Rebecca, her Perfect Pedestal Jack and outward favoritism of Randall became a complete sense of helplessness without her husband, and her giving the watch to Randall without a thought for how that would make her other children feel. For Kevin, his habit of lashing out at Randall for negative emotions toward his parents’ perceived disinterest turned into an extremely cruel accusation toward Randall.  For Randall, his perfectionism and his protectiveness toward his mother turned into him stepping up as Jack’s surrogate.  For Kate, her sullen self-loathing turned into the self-punishment of pushing away poor innocent Louis.  While I do find all these reactions believable and perfectly in line with what we’ve been shown of the characters so far, it would have at least been narratively more interesting to me if one of them had gone in a less predictable direction.  I suppose the writers sort of locked themselves into these reactions though, since the present day characters are still drinking at those wells.

[Thumper]

On February 8, 2018 at 7:37 PM, arabidopsis said:

My dad is a pastor, so I went to a lot of funerals growing up, and witnessed a lot of people deal with the profound grief of losing someone they deeply love.  I saw one of the most gregarious, fun loving men I’ve ever known launch himself onto his daughter’s casket at the interment, refusing to leave the cemetery because he couldn’t bear the thought of his child being put into the ground.  I saw a prim, seemingly stoic retired English teacher sent to a locked psychiatric ward because she had a complete mental break when she lost her husband of 50 years.  I’ve seen a husband giddy with joy and relief when his beloved wife passed because she was finally free after 20 years of relentless chronic pain.  All this to say, people have an incredible range of experiencing and expressing their grief – often completely unpredictable to both themselves and others before they were thrust into it, and I find it very difficult to work up judgement for any of it.  So in the context of the characters on this show, Rebecca honking her horn, Kevin lashing out unfairly at Randall, Kate’s resentment of her dog (not something that she made a choice to feel, nor should she be expected to work through rationally at this stage of her grieving), all within days of the sudden, horrific loss of one of the most important people in their lives?  Not only do I have zero judgement for any of it, but I find them all remarkably put together, given the circumstances. Perhaps if they had been able to fall completely apart at the time, they would have been better able to work through their devastation and not still be stuck in it 20 years later, but who can say?

Thank you for this.  

[Nire]

1 hour ago, Snapdragon said:

This.  I feel like the biggest problems with 47 year old Rebecca are her hair and her clothes.  I'm two years younger than the Big 3 and by the time I was in high school, I don't remember anyone's mom having hair that went past their shoulders.  Most had either a bob or a pixie cut or something else on the shorter end.  If they did have slightly longer hair, it certainly wasn't all 70s styled.  The clothing Rebecca wears also looks like it's from the 70s or really early 80s for the most part.  Absolutely nothing about middle aged Rebecca (or really middle aged Jack, for that matter) says 90s to me.  Rebecca needs some mom jeans, stat!

I struggle with 47 year old Rebecca too.  I don't feel like they aged her up enough to have teenagers especially having not been very young when her teens were born.  She looks so similar to when they were in elementary school to me that it's hard to believe that time has actually passed.  I feel like one simple thing would have been to have the glasses make their appearance at that point instead of waiting until she was in her 60s and a shorter hairstyle would have been more accurate for the time period.  

[Remlab]

Quote

But almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring.

My father does not wear a wedding ring and only wears a watch on special occasion. Actually neither of my parents wear wedding rings, and now that I think about it, my mom only wears a watch on special occasions too. I'm the only one in the family who wears a watch every day. But that's neither here nor there. I felt like the whole point was that to Kevin, Rebecca giving Randall the watch was just another sign that no one cared about him. No one thought to consult him, no one thought he'd care, no one thought about him at all. Of course this was probably not what happened, but it's how it felt to Kevin.

[JudyObscure]

8 hours ago, arabidopsis said:

Judy - I apologize for the wording in my post that implied disparagement towards those who are critiquing character behavior in this episode. It wasn’t my intention to suggest that those commenters were awful people, but I can see how it could be interpreted that way.

Your beautifully worded posts need no apology, Arabidopsis, I'm just overly touchy about being called judgmental -- probably because I actually am sometimes.   Sorry. 

These characters are "real," to me too and as Clanstarling says we probably wouldn't enjoy the show as much if we didn't connect with them so well.  For me, Rebecca is the one I have trouble relating to, so I'm probably more critical of her.

[Lisa418722]

19 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

I don't have a problem with Rebecca's "lack" of emotions, because I get it. While I haven't (thank God, knock wood) been in that situation, I have been in several others where I was the one who had to be strong for my family. I kept my emotions in check, and mastered silent screaming in bathrooms. But in public or with the family, during those times I am always more or less calm and collected. It's not necessarily healthy, but it is the way I'm built.

2

We believed that my dad a stroke. My mom called me at 12:30 on Saturday morning to let me know.   I live in another state so I threw some clothes into a suitcase (2 t-shirts and 5 pairs of pants, yeah).  Driving back to my hometown, my mom called again and said they were transferring Dad to the nearest big city. I had to stop by her house to get a family friend (her husband drove my mom to the hospital).  It took about six hours and when I got there the daughter of the family friends was sitting there with my mom.  The daughter got up to give me a hug and my mom looked at her like "why are you comforting Lisa, you need to be there for me."  We eventually found out my dad had brain cancer and the entire ten months with my mom it was "all about me. You need to be there for me.  Don't worry about Lisa. She doesn't live here so she has an escape." I'm an only child, so it was really hard on me. Also living out of state made it hard because I wasn't able to be there every day or even every week.   I did a lot of crying on the interstate between home and my hometown because I wasn't allowed to cry in front of my mom because it was all about her.  Even at the funeral home, one of my cousins and her husband came in from out of state and we were laughing about childhood memories.  My mom's sister made the comment, "it looks like Lisa was having a good time." Yeah, and if my dad had been alive, he would have been laughing too.  I needed a reason to laugh after all of this.   

[Ohmo]

On 2/9/2018 at 8:48 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Can't they dig year 'round in freezing climates, with bulldozers?

I had a relative die in the dead of winter here in the Midwest.  The services were in a small country town, and the ground was frozen.  No, they did not dig that day.  Oddly enough, my relative worked in the funeral services industry.  Many of his colleagues helped prepare him for burial.  One of them told the family that funeral homes have plans in place to store deceased people for short periods of time (days or weeks) until the ground thaws to be able to dig.  Admittedly, I didn't listen attentively to details because the whole "storage" idea kinda creeped me out, but that was the jist.

[TwoGrayTabbies]

Lisa418722, that’s awful.  (((Hugs)))

[Ohmo]

On 2/10/2018 at 5:47 AM, JudyObscure said:

Your beautifully worded posts need no apology, Arabidopsis, I'm just overly touchy about being called judgmental -- probably because I actually am sometimes.   Sorry. 

These characters are "real," to me too and as Clanstarling says we probably wouldn't enjoy the show as much if we didn't connect with them so well.  For me, Rebecca is the one I have trouble relating to, so I'm probably more critical of her.

I'd like to stand up for the concept of being judgemental.  I too, am often called that.  As a society, it's now seen as a bad thing across the board, and I don't think that's fair.  There are times where I think a little judgement is needed, especially when something persists over a long time.  In my own family, I'm very judgemental about certain members of my extended family...because they have continued to behave in certain negative ways toward other family members with no change in behavior.  In Kate's case, I'm fine with not judging teenage Kate or young-adult Kate, but I feel present-day Kate needs some judgement.  Some of her actions are not good for her, and she continues to behave as she does.  It's not ideal for Toby to continue to just try and make everything OK for her all the time.

 

On 2/10/2018 at 10:12 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

I would think the little bobcats I see digging holes would work but I haven't lived in a cold climate in 25 years, either. 

It could also have something to do with location.  In this particular small town, the cemeteries have graves that are fairly close together.  I'm not sure a bobcat could fit in there without potentially damaging other gravesites.  Maybe funeral homes and cemeteries just want to avoid that risk altogether?

Edited February 10, 2018 by Ohmo

[ShadowFacts]

1 minute ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

Interesting.  How does the building industry survive in winter in cold climates?  I know houses need basements where the ground freezes.  Or is it just that they have the right heavy equipment for that whereas the funeral industry doesn't?  I would think the little bobcats I see digging holes would work but I haven't lived in a cold climate in 25 years, either.   And we're cremation fans, for the most part.  Moreso the more I hear about interments.

Odd factoid... A career test I took in college recommended Funeral Director as one of the top 5 or so professions they thought I'd like and excel at.  Heh.  IRS Agent was another.  Must be my cold heart.  

It is a matter of the right equipment.  I recently found out (bummer of a story, contaminated well), new wells can be dug in winter, and in fact some well drillers prefer it because there is no mud on the site then.  As a driller said, if we can dig through rock, we can dig through a few inches of frozen ground.  Bobcats might or might not be able to dig a grave, I don't know, but the right heavy equipment will do it.  It was never really a factor for Jack, though, we know where his ashes went and it wasn't in the ground.  We got sidetracked on this, at least I did, because of the California cemetery they used that made Pittsburgh in winter look ridiculous.  If they wanted to go with the idea that Jack wanted to be outside and not in the ground, they could have picked some other outdoor scenario that was either snowy or bare trees, brown grass. 

[sioux21]

14 hours ago, Nire said:

I struggle with 47 year old Rebecca too.  I don't feel like they aged her up enough to have teenagers especially having not been very young when her teens were born.  She looks so similar to when they were in elementary school to me that it's hard to believe that time has actually passed.  I feel like one simple thing would have been to have the glasses make their appearance at that point instead of waiting until she was in her 60s and a shorter hairstyle would have been more accurate for the time period.  

I think "the Rachel" would have been a good hairstyle for her during the mid to late '90s.

[Clanstarling]

On 2/10/2018 at 7:58 AM, Lisa418722 said:

We believed that my dad a stroke. My mom called me at 12:30 on Saturday morning to let me know.   I live in another state so I threw some clothes into a suitcase (2 t-shirts and 5 pairs of pants, yeah).  Driving back to my hometown, my mom called again and said they were transferring Dad to the nearest big city. I had to stop by her house to get a family friend (her husband drove my mom to the hospital).  It took about six hours and when I got there the daughter of the family friends was sitting there with my mom.  The daughter got up to give me a hug and my mom looked at her like "why are you comforting Lisa, you need to be there for me."  We eventually found out my dad had brain cancer and the entire ten months with my mom it was "all about me. You need to be there for me.  Don't worry about Lisa. She doesn't live here so she has an escape." I'm an only child, so it was really hard on me. Also living out of state made it hard because I wasn't able to be there every day or even every week.   I did a lot of crying on the interstate between home and my hometown because I wasn't allowed to cry in front of my mom because it was all about her.  Even at the funeral home, one of my cousins and her husband came in from out of state and we were laughing about childhood memories.  My mom's sister made the comment, "it looks like Lisa was having a good time." Yeah, and if my dad had been alive, he would have been laughing too.  I needed a reason to laugh after all of this.   

I am so sorry this happened to you. After my mother's death, we all shared fond memories and did a lot of laughing - it was cathartic. I think that may be the point of wakes (though I've never attended one, so I don't know). 

On 2/10/2018 at 8:12 AM, Winston9-DT3 said:

Interesting.  How does the building industry survive in winter in cold climates?  I know houses need basements where the ground freezes.  Or is it just that they have the right heavy equipment for that whereas the funeral industry doesn't?  I would think the little bobcats I see digging holes would work but I haven't lived in a cold climate in 25 years, either.   And we're cremation fans, for the most part.  Moreso the more I hear about interments.

Odd factoid... A career test I took in college recommended Funeral Director as one of the top 5 or so professions they thought I'd like and excel at.  Heh.  IRS Agent was another.  Must be my cold heart.  

The building industry does a lot of planning. Foundations are pretty much the first thing, and I think - especially in cold climates - they schedule that part of the process early  on when (hopefully) the ground isn't frozen. The new house next door had its foundation dug out in September, I think. And most of the digging and other ground work was done before winter. Now it's all inside stuff.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Clanstarling

[NutMeg]

2 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

We believed that my dad a stroke. My mom called me at 12:30 on Saturday morning to let me know.   I live in another state so I threw some clothes into a suitcase (2 t-shirts and 5 pairs of pants, yeah).  Driving back to my hometown, my mom called again and said they were transferring Dad to the nearest big city. I had to stop by her house to get a family friend (her husband drove my mom to the hospital).  It took about six hours and when I got there the daughter of the family friends was sitting there with my mom.  The daughter got up to give me a hug and my mom looked at her like "why are you comforting Lisa, you need to be there for me."  We eventually found out my dad had brain cancer and the entire ten months with my mom it was "all about me. You need to be there for me.  Don't worry about Lisa. She doesn't live here so she has an escape." I'm an only child, so it was really hard on me. Also living out of state made it hard because I wasn't able to be there every day or even every week.   I did a lot of crying on the interstate between home and my hometown because I wasn't allowed to cry in front of my mom because it was all about her.  Even at the funeral home, one of my cousins and her husband came in from out of state and we were laughing about childhood memories.  My mom's sister made the comment, "it looks like Lisa was having a good time." Yeah, and if my dad had been alive, he would have been laughing too.  I needed a reason to laugh after all of this.   

I feel for you and can relate. I was even further away, working in Hong Kong at the time. But yes, the feeling of dealing with your own grief while both not being supported by the person you feel should get you, but also having to tiptoe around her is very, very painful indeed.

[Aside to all: I seem to remember that last season we had a thread to talk in more details about the experiences or feelings that happenings in this show brought back to mind, what was it? It might be worth reactivating so the discussion can go on past the episode while not over saturating the episode threads]   

[DebbieM4]

On 2/9/2018 at 6:21 AM, Katy M said:

An service at the cemetery would have involved no burial since it's early February in Pittburgh and the ground would have been too frozen to dig.  Even though there was no snow on the ground anywhere and nobody was wearing winter jackets.

I've lived in the northeast my entire life (NY, NJ, and Connecticut), and I've been to many January/February funerals (some with snow on the ground and bitter cold weather) that included burial at the cemetery.  I've never heard any one ever talk about it being impossible or even a problem.   

 

On 2/9/2018 at 2:51 PM, TwoGrayTabbies said:

A man’s watch might be a big deal if it’s an heirloom, or if it’s expensive, or unique in some way, but Jack seems like a drug store Timex kind of guy.  He’d have something practical and non-extravagant.

I think the point is that it was their Dad's watch, which made it special and unique and sacred.   Whether or not it was a run-of-the-mill Timex or something very expensive is beside the point, at least from what I've seen in real life in this type of situation.  It's about something personal that belonged to their Dad, and has nothing at all to do with the cost or value to anyone else.

[Clanstarling]

31 minutes ago, DebbieM4 said:

I've lived in the northeast my entire life (NY, NJ, and Connecticut), and I've been to many January/February funerals (some with snow on the ground and bitter cold weather) that included burial at the cemetery.  I've never heard any one ever talk about it being impossible or even a problem.   

I hadn't either - until my father-in-law couldn't be buried in the mid-west in late December.

Edited February 11, 2018 by Clanstarling

[breezy424]

I can't stand 67 year old Rebecca's wig either.  The problem for me is that long in the front and short in back doesn't work because it's too short and most people would have it even all the way around.  Also, we've never seen Bec with straight hair.  There's always been a curl.  The other problem with aging MM is that she does have a roundish face.  As you get older, your face tends to thin a bit.  Unless you're on the heavy side.  Not always.  So, it's hard to get around this.  I do like how the make up artist did the wrinkles on the neck.  Yep.  That happens.

I also agree with many about 47 year old Bec.  I don't mind the hair.  I don't think the hair length was the problem.  I knew many women who were in their late forties during that time period and many had longer hair than Bec.  I do think she needed a little bit more aging in the make up.  Not much.

The other thing that bugs me is the clothing choice for 67 year old Bec.  Here is a woman who did wear color and TPTB went with brown/beige.  I just don't know what they're going for.  Is Bec a broken woman?  She wears a so called 'chic' hairstyle but her wardrobe is drab. 

I'm looking forward to the kids in their early twenties.  We haven't seen that.  How do they show Kate's weight gain?  At what point will the adult Pearsons play their earlier selves.  We got to see Randall and the birth of his daughter but when does that line stop?  I love the teenage actors and it will be interesting to see how far they carry them forward. 

[SueB]

My Dad couldn't be buried in early January in 1975 due to frozen ground and a blizzard.  We never went to the gravesite until after he was buried and the tombstone placed -- months later.  But that was 1975.  Can't say about today's options.

I guess when it comes to memorial locations, it's possible that the funeral director had pre-arranged "options".  For example, if you want to have a memorial outside, they have a location where they go (in the graveyard) near a columbarium (where urns go) for those who want the "outside" service.  That the urn was not going to be interred there may not have mattered. It's just where they have these ceremonies.  It's out of the way where people can sit and grieve in the outdoors and it's appropriate (versus taking over a corner of a park).  There were a lot of people, so they needed to go SOMEPLACE.  And Jack wanted "outside" so some place in the funeral home would have been unfit in Rebecca mind.  Hence, outdoor service but no interment.   

[pennben]

14 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

It is a matter of the right equipment.  I recently found out (bummer of a story, contaminated well), new wells can be dug in winter, and in fact some well drillers prefer it because there is no mud on the site then.  

I know that both wells and graves can be dug in the winter (at least where I lived in the midwest at the time), because our well ran dry maybe the day (or two) before my father died.  New well, new grave, no problem:) I can laugh now.....not so much back then. 

[debraran]

7 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I can't stand 67 year old Rebecca's wig either.  The problem for me is that long in the front and short in back doesn't work because it's too short and most people would have it even all the way around.  Also, we've never seen Bec with straight hair.  There's always been a curl.  The other problem with aging MM is that she does have a roundish face.  As you get older, your face tends to thin a bit.  Unless you're on the heavy side.  Not always.  So, it's hard to get around this.  I do like how the mapike up artist did the wrinkles on the neck.  Yep.  That happens.

I also agree with many about 47 year old Bec.  I don't mind the hair.  I don't think the hair length was the problem.  I knew many women who were in their late forties during that time period and many had longer hair than Bec.  I do think she needed a little bit more aging in the make up.  Not much.

The other thing that bugs me is the clothing choice for 67 year old Bec.  Here is a woman who did wear color and TPTB went with brown/beige.  I just don't know what they're going for.  Is Bec a broken woman?  She wears a so called 'chic' hairstyle but her wardrobe is drab. 

I'm looking forward to the kids in their early twenties.  We haven't seen that.  How do they show Kate's weight gain?  At what point will the adult Pearsons play their earlier selves.  We got to see Randall and the birth of his daughter but when does that line stop?  I love the teenage actors and it will be interesting to see how far they carry them forward. 

I think they feel they want her to seem drab even with Miguel, but I resent that at a viewer. We don't need visuals to show she loved Jack, we all know she loved Jack, she has his memories, his necklace and probably other things found in the garage, etc.  She is committed to Miguel, you can show her happy now, Jack's officially gone and she should have joy with her children and grandchildren and Miguel. Seeing her laughing at the TV with Miguel (until Kevin came in) was a short spot but I hope there is more. Kevin is right, don't fake emotions to make us happy.

They did show the kids in the "20's" episode. That's when Kate slept with the guy who was married and was a waitress. She seemed the same as now but when I commented on that, someone said maybe she wasn't 22 as much as 25 or older and she  could have gained that much that quickly.

There are pics out there of her as a waitress, this is only her face, the bangs were the only way they really made her 'younger".  Twenties is hard.

 

Edited February 11, 2018 by debraran

[Driad]

26 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I feel like they’re afraid that showing any of the Pearsons having moved on emotionally and not as somewhat broken people would undermine their entire premise— how the death of St. Jack reverberates to this day.   Which I think is fairly unrealistic. People get past grief, or they get help.   

Exactly. Good parents want to raise their children to be strong and resilient.  If the Big Three can’t handle Jack’s death 20 years later, it sounds to me as if he somehow made them dependent on him.  Not so saintly.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I can't stand 67 year old Rebecca's wig either.  The problem for me is that long in the front and short in back doesn't work because it's too short and most people would have it even all the way around.  Also, we've never seen Bec with straight hair.  There's always been a curl.  The other problem with aging MM is that she does have a roundish face.  As you get older, your face tends to thin a bit.  Unless you're on the heavy side.  Not always.  So, it's hard to get around this.  I do like how the make up artist did the wrinkles on the neck.  Yep.  That happens.

I also agree with many about 47 year old Bec.  I don't mind the hair.  I don't think the hair length was the problem.  I knew many women who were in their late forties during that time period and many had longer hair than Bec.  I do think she needed a little bit more aging in the make up.  Not much.

The other thing that bugs me is the clothing choice for 67 year old Bec.  Here is a woman who did wear color and TPTB went with brown/beige.  I just don't know what they're going for.  Is Bec a broken woman?  She wears a so called 'chic' hairstyle but her wardrobe is drab. 

Yep, the neck's the worst. No way to hide it, unless you like turtlenecks and scarves, and I hate both of those.

7 hours ago, SueB said:

My Dad couldn't be buried in early January in 1975 due to frozen ground and a blizzard.  We never went to the gravesite until after he was buried and the tombstone placed -- months later.  But that was 1975.  Can't say about today's options.

My father-in-law couldn't be buried in 1988.

7 hours ago, pennben said:

I know that both wells and graves can be dug in the winter (at least where I lived in the midwest at the time), because our well ran dry maybe the day (or two) before my father died.  New well, new grave, no problem:) I can laugh now.....not so much back then. 

My mother-in-law also died in the winter, in the same mid-western area, years later and there were no problems with her burial.

I imagine the frozen ground issue only occurs intermittently when the weather's been unusually cold and severe.  So it probably doesn't happen all the time (or winter), and probably not even most of the time. They just need to have backup for when it does happen. 

[Clanstarling]

21 minutes ago, Driad said:

Exactly. Good parents want to raise their children to be strong and resilient.  If the Big Three can’t handle Jack’s death 20 years later, it sounds to me as if he somehow made them dependent on him.  Not so saintly.

I can't stand the Sainthood of Jack, but I'm not going to blame him for this one. There's no surefire method to make your kids strong and resilient, and nobody is a perfect parent. Not to mention the traumatic death of a parent can knock anyone off kilter.

[ShadowFacts]

23 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I can't stand the Sainthood of Jack, but I'm not going to blame him for this one. There's no surefire method to make your kids strong and resilient, and nobody is a perfect parent. Not to mention the traumatic death of a parent can knock anyone off kilter.

I agree.  A trauma can arrest someone's development and it looks like that is what happened with Kate and Kevin, but to a lesser degree with Rebecca and Randall.  I attribute that to Rebecca and Randall being on more solid ground to begin with -- Kevin was on testy terms with Jack and Kate has the dog-guilt thing.  Those two have buried their feelings up until when the show opens.  Kate started getting what was tripping her up when she was drumming at the fat camp, and Kevin more recently after his knee injury during filming that movie.  Rebecca was able to remarry, and Randall is more free with his feelings -- he celebrates Jack by re-enacting Pilgrim Rick and having a Super Bowl party and he also was able to go looking for his birth parents.   I'm not saying Rebecca and Randall aren't still affected, they are, but not as much as the other two.

[BoogieBurns]

On 2/9/2018 at 1:57 PM, JudyObscure said:

almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring -- it's usually the number one memento and is often either handed down to the eldest same sex child or negotiated carefully.

Since my father only has daughters and granddaughters, I texted him after watching this episode and asked if I have a son can he get some of his watches when he passes away. My dad has about 30 watches, so even if I have two sons and my sister’s current pregnancy gives him his first grandson, we will have plenty to go around.

I really didn’t want the brothers-in-law to get “dibs” on my Dad’s stuff without asking for myself.