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S02.E15: The Car

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5 hours ago, debraran said:

They did show the kids in the "20's" episode. That's when Kate slept with the guy who was married and was a waitress. She seemed the same as now but when I commented on that, someone said maybe she wasn't 22 as much as 25 or older and she  could have gained that much that quickly.

They were 28 in that episode. They were wearing Obama/Biden pins and had signs in their lawn to show it was 2008. So we have ten(ish) years to see the weight gain. I do hope they stick with the teen actors as they age. Because Sterling is handsome as hell, but he should not play 19, when we have a perfectly capable actor—who will actually be 19–to play him.

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2 hours ago, Driad said:

Exactly. Good parents want to raise their children to be strong and resilient.  If the Big Three can’t handle Jack’s death 20 years later, it sounds to me as if he somehow made them dependent on him.  Not so saintly.

Completely disagree.  Jack was making great efforts to do the opposite, in my opinion.  Given his conversation with Kate about music, he would have likely championed her going to Berke;ley, which would have been across the country.  He was very much in favor of Kate finding out what it meant to be Kate.  He was supportive of Randall exploring historically black colleges and growing and learning about the part of himself that is completely unlike Jack or Rebecca.  Jack also was the one who told Kevin to look beyond football and find his next passion when he injured his knee.   With Randall and Kevin and the driving incident, Jack was the one to remind them that there would come a time when he and Rebecca would no longer be alive.  All of that points to independence from Jack and Rebecca, not more dependence on them.

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22 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

almost everyone knows that a man's watch is like a woman's engagement ring -- it's usually the number one memento and is often either handed down to the eldest same sex child or negotiated carefully.

I've never heard of a man's watch spoken of in the same way as a woman's engagement ring.  Plus, my dad's had the same watch forever, but it's ugly.  My dad's also not a spender when it comes to himself, so I doubt the watch is a high-end piece.  If my brother wants it that badly, he's welcome to it.

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13 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Completely disagree.  Jack was making great efforts to do the opposite, in my opinion.

I didn't say he wasn't a good father.  Just that not all of his efforts were successful.  I'm tired of the "Saint Jack" idea.

 

15 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

Given his conversation with Kate about music, he would have likely championed her going to Berke;ley

Berklee, https://www.berklee.edu/   in Boston.

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3 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

It’s illegal to wait til spring in some states.  And there are ground thawing tools available.  

Channeling Robert Service and Sam McGee...

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25 minutes ago, BoogieBurns said:

They were 28 in that episode. They were wearing Obama/Biden pins and had signs in their lawn to show it was 2008. So we have ten(ish) years to see the weight gain. I do hope they stick with the teen actors as they age. Because Sterling is handsome as hell, but he should not play 19, when we have a perfectly capable actor—who will actually be 19–to play him.

I agree, showing an aging teen actress is easier than making someone younger. I think until about 25, the teen Kate and others can do very well.

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34 minutes ago, Driad said:

I didn't say he wasn't a good father.  Just that not all of his efforts were successful.  I'm tired of the "Saint Jack" idea.

 

Berklee, https://www.berklee.edu/   in Boston.

The way I interpreted your initial point was that you were saying that Jack was not raising strong or resilient children and instead encouraging dependence.  That's where we disagree, and I gave examples of him doing the opposite.

As to the geographic location of Kate's preferred school, my overall point is still the same.  Boston is still not Pittsburgh.  Kate would have had to go away to attend school, which can help encourage strength and resilience because one's parents are not geographically close by to be able to take care of things.  I do not believe that Jack was encouraging his children to be dependent on him or Rebecca.

Edited by Ohmo
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2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

I'm not saying Rebecca and Randall aren't still affected, they are, but not as much as the other two.

I wonder if subconsciously the twins have survivor guilt and grief/loss over the death of their triplet brother, and that further complicates their recovery from losing Jack.

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49 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

The way I interpreted your initial point was that you were saying that Jack was not raising strong or resilient children and instead encouraging dependence.  That's where we disagree, and I gave examples of him doing the opposite.

I said "it sounds to me as if he somehow made them dependent on him."  Nothing about it being deliberate.

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I lived in PA across the street from a cemetery for a number of years and I can attest to the fact that they buried people year round.  I've never heard of someone not being able to be buried because it was winter and having to wait until spring.  

I also can say that after having been a primary caretaker for my grandfather while he was dying, we moved him into a hospice facility when it became too much to care for him at home.  The hospice people called to say he had died, and my first words were "Oh, thank God."  The previous weeks of caring for him had been a nightmare, cancer is awful.  I was incredibly relieved to know that he didn't have to live another minute the way he had been, though I would give anything to have him back as his full self for just another hour.  I miss him terribly, but if it meant having him around the way the last weeks of his life were, well, then I'd rather things be the way they are.  

I do know some people who have watches that have been handed down, but in a lot of cases, it's just something to have  of that person, since they were close.  Especially in Jack's case, it's not like there are really a lot of options to choose from, since they likely lost most of their belongings in the fire.  Maybe he had an everyday watch and a dress watch and each boy would get one under other circumstances.  Or one would get the watch and the other a tie tack he wore to work each day, etc.  But, when all that is left is basically what fits into a TSA ziplock bag, things become a lot harder to handle.  I don't blame Kevin for wanting to hold onto every piece of his father that he could, it likely wasn't even fully about Randall, but more losing yet another piece of his father.  It wasn't so much a rational thing where, ok, I have this, of course Randall would want that, we each should have something, it's more a situation where when someone just dies suddenly, you want to hold every piece of them that remains as close as you can.  And, in this case, there are so few pieces, that makes it even harder, the loss is even bigger.  

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On 2/9/2018 at 10:01 PM, Nire said:

This.  I feel like the biggest problems with 47 year old Rebecca are her hair and her clothes.  I'm two years younger than the Big 3 and by the time I was in high school, I don't remember anyone's mom having hair that went past their shoulders.  Most had either a bob or a pixie cut or something else on the shorter end.  If they did have slightly longer hair, it certainly wasn't all 70s styled.  The clothing Rebecca wears also looks like it's from the 70s or really early 80s for the most part.  Absolutely nothing about middle aged Rebecca (or really middle aged Jack, for that matter) says 90s to me.  Rebecca needs some mom jeans, stat!

The show has basically decided to have Rebecca wear flattering clothes and flattering hairstyles that have a mostly 1970's vibe to them or a "classic" vibe, regardless of whether or not it's right for the time period. They've pretty much ignored any unflattering clothing styles from 1990-ish. We never see Rebecca or Jack in bright neons or anything but the earth tones that were popular in the 70's and again in the mid/late 90's, even if it's 1989 and we should be swimming in acid wash, neons, and Aquanet. In the first episode set in 1995 they gave Rebecca a straighter but still layered look that I thought looked great if she were a cast member on Friends, but not so much a 40-something mom in 1995.

The Farrah Fawcett hair they seem to give her doesn't jibe right at all for the late 80's/early 90's, and they seem to have defaulted back into that for Rebecca's late 90's looks. I did actually really love her 2008 look.

I'd like to see at least one french braid on either her or Kate in a 1990 episode. Come on. Those were everywhere!

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On 2/9/2018 at 8:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I also think the writers wrote themselves into a corner last season.  They showed an outdoor service and they had to follow through.  I wonder if they knew Jack would die in late January in Pittsburgh last season.

You're absolutely right: from the moment those brief, previous shots of the service were included, everyone's costume was determined (and one season ruled out, one would think). But as I recall, the shots used then were careful not to include anything that absolutely established that the service was taking place at a cemetery, rather than some other dignified site outdoors. They did "three-season" mourning wardrobing...then set the death mid-winter.

1 hour ago, possibilities said:

Jack's body was cremated and he did not want to be buried in the ground. We weren't going to see a burial no matter what the season or location.

That's what I thought, too: and so I wondered why the cemetery allowed a service on its grounds, since Jack's ashes were never going to be interred there. At least, that's what I understood by his firm request, "Don't put me in the ground. Leave me outdoors." (And by how the flashback to Jack's making that request came at the beginning of the episode: placing the request near the end would have better suggested that Rebecca suddenly chose to remember or honor it.) 

We've known all along, pretty much, that Jack's urn was not interred. We learned in "Memphis" that some of his ashes don't get to watch football, but instead, were scattered by a tree in Pittsburgh. But maybe my impression was wrong. Did other people here see it differently -- that Rebecca intended to have Jack interred, then changed her mind at the reception? That after being comforted by Dr. K, she make a more radical choice: no burial at all? So she grabs the kids, ditches the reception, makes off with the urn and heads for the tree?  If so, that might have been Rebecca's first truly conscious act since Jack's death. Followed by her open eyes as she drove her family across the bridge.

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On 2/7/2018 at 9:05 AM, luna1122 said:

That speech at the end was eyerolling. The Pearsons are such special snowflakes that they get a deal on a car cuz Jack sermonizes. I'd have loved to see the impassive face of the car salesman as he had to listen to it, and then have him say 'Nice speech, bro. But here's the price'.

 

YES.  This is what I hate most about the show.  The speeches.  

Other than that, I thought the show was pretty good this week.  And now that the death reveal has happened, I'm looking forward to the Rebecca/Miguel relationship happen.  Also, as a widow with a 16 year-old daughter, I'm interested in seeing how Rebecca goes forward.  

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Randall and his fathers. Jack taught Randall to drive; Randall taught William to drive. And as Jack begins the driving lesson, he tells 17-year-old Randall, "The key to driving is to be flexible, to be spontaneous." Think of William -- also in the passenger seat -- telling a still-wound-up Randall the same thing as they began their journey and at its end.  

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10 hours ago, Pallas said:

We've known all along, pretty much, that Jack's urn was not interred. We learned in "Memphis" that some of his ashes don't get to watch football, but instead, were scattered by a tree in Pittsburgh. But maybe my impression was wrong. Did other people here see it differently -- that Rebecca intended to have Jack interred, then changed her mind at the reception? That after being comforted by Dr. K, she make a more radical choice: no burial at all? So she grabs the kids, ditches the reception, makes off with the urn and heads for the tree?  If so, that might have been Rebecca's first truly conscious act since Jack's death. Followed by her open eyes as she drove her family across the bridge.

No, I didn't see it that way.  I cannot believe she would have been intending to do something so important that was against Jack's explicit wishes.  She did take the step of cremating him like he wanted, so I don't think she would then reverse or subvert that by burying the urn. 

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On 2/7/2018 at 5:33 PM, SueB said:

-Rebecca: Hopping between Denial and Bargaining. She's mostly floatin in shock but helping the family go on will center her.  She's not crying because she can't even touch that grief yet.  And definitely not in front of the kids.  Not at the funeral. 

I can really relate to the scene because when my husband died from a four year cancer battle, I was more worried about staying strong for my 15 year-old daughter that I didn't cry at the funeral.  The tears came later and mostly done in private.  

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On 2/8/2018 at 5:01 AM, debraran said:

Kate is lucky to have Toby, a guy that sees her under all her issues but it grows old to keep hearing about how she killed her dad at 37. Does she ever think or talk to her dad and wonder how sad he would be that half her life has been hurting herself because of his death?  Kevin wants to be a good man, he'll keep trying, his therapy hopefully helped but Kate is not an endearing character because she pulls the weight issue as a shield too. It just gets old on TV because they made that her soul. We don't know much about Rebecca and her past but Kate seemed to be weight and music and Jack wanted her to try her wings with that.

I hope next season we see more growth with Kate but I know Chrissy has to decide if she wants to lose weight and that will effect the script with that plot line. Therapy though I hope we see soon.

I'm struggling to figure out just what Toby sees in this overgrown baby?  What is it about her that is lovable?  She doesn't appear to have some winning personality.  She doesn't appear to have steady sources of income.  She's a 37 year old woman who seems to be stuck in a time warp.  We've seen her resent her mom because well, her mom was skinny.  Her life seems to revolve around canonizing her dad, wallowing in guilt and grief, angry at people for being skinny (how bitchy was she to the girl in therapy until she finally wasn't?).  I find Toby's character irritating as hell, and Chrissy is a beautiful woman, but what exactly does Toby get out of this relationship other than a fat woman feeling happy to be loved?  And most of the time, she doesn't seem to be that happy to be loved.

Of course, this show seems to make the men hopeless romantics and the women complex humans that are more often than not total bitches.

Edited by sasha206
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21 hours ago, sasha206 said:

I'm struggling to figure out just what Toby sees in this overgrown baby?  What is it about her that is lovable?  She doesn't appear to have some winning personality.  She doesn't appear to have steady sources of income.  She's a 37 year old woman who seems to be stuck in a time warp.  We've seen her resent her mom because well, her mom was skinny.  Her life seems to revolve around canonizing her dad, wallowing in guilt and grief, angry at people for being skinny (how bitchy was she to the girl in therapy until she finally wasn't?).  I find Toby's character irritating as hell, and Chrissy is a beautiful woman, but what exactly does Toby get out of this relationship other than a fat woman feeling happy to be loved?  And most of the time, she doesn't seem to be that happy to be loved.

Of course, this show seems to make the men hopeless romantics and the women complex humans that are more often than not total bitches.

I think Toby loves her wit and her instincts.  Yes, she's got issues and I think being with Toby has actually caused her to deal with her issues than if she had been on her own.  I also think Toby gets that.  We saw a snippet in a montage the week prior of them dancing.  I think there are a lot more "normal" moments than drama.  And he knows the story about the dog and when she brought one home in spite of her issues, he sees a woman who will stand up to her demons because it's both the right thing to do and her life partner needs her to.  

Kate is both snarky and caring.  Like when Madison, who was her foil in the group, got in trouble, Kate went over and made sure she's okay.  She's gained empathy for Madison when she is the opposite of Kate (on the surface level).  And it was a little scary when Madison declared Kate her best friend and yet Kate didn't drop her.  

So, I think there's more to Kate than just her issues.

As for the logistics of her life, I think that tiny stint as a woman's assistant showed Kate's got organizational and management skills.  She CAN get a job if that's what's needed.  I think she talked it over with Tony and decided to pursue singing because she realized that they (and they are engaged, so it's a "they" now) are in a position where she can take a shot at this. I also suspect that as Kevin's assistant she EARNED her pay and that she wasn't careless with the money so she had a little cushion for transitions.  Kevin and the Hollywood crowd seemed like it required a level of skill and effort.  But I also like that he fired her because she needed to become independent.  Yes, she ended up having Toby replace Kevin in terms of significant other person in her life, but I think they demonstrated she would financially land on her feet.  So they don't cover it more than they have.

Just my opinion, YMMV.   

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On 2/12/2018 at 12:37 PM, sasha206 said:

I'm struggling to figure out just what Toby sees in this overgrown baby?  What is it about her that is lovable?  She doesn't appear to have some winning personality.  She doesn't appear to have steady sources of income.  She's a 37 year old woman who seems to be stuck in a time warp.  We've seen her resent her mom because well, her mom was skinny.  Her life seems to revolve around canonizing her dad, wallowing in guilt and grief, angry at people for being skinny (how bitchy was she to the girl in therapy until she finally wasn't?).  I find Toby's character irritating as hell, and Chrissy is a beautiful woman, but what exactly does Toby get out of this relationship other than a fat woman feeling happy to be loved?  And most of the time, she doesn't seem to be that happy to be loved.

Of course, this show seems to make the men hopeless romantics and the women complex humans that are more often than not total bitches.

I don't quite understand that either.  She comes across as very self-centered and needy, and for her it seems to be all about what Toby can do for her.  He apparently adores her, but it's very one-sided.  I don't like Toby at all, but he's certainly devoted to her and he's incredibly understanding.  He gives her space, forgives her when she yells at him, works hard to understand her thinking & emotions, and apologizes when he inadvertently messes up.  He's clearly very well-intentioned and he wants her to be happy.  If I were him, as willing as I might be to treat this fragile flower with kid gloves, I would kind of expect to get some caring and consideration back in return.  Kate seems to need Toby, but only to prop her up and coddle her, and I'm not convinced that Toby's place couldn't easily be taken by any man willing to do that.   She's way too inside her own head, and is apparently convinced that everything should revolve around her because she's had difficulty in her life.  Honey, LOTS of people have had horrible things happen.  It's not a lifelong pass to make yourself the focal point of every relationship going forward, and it's not an excuse to consistently take without giving.   

Love is supposed to go both ways.  A relationship is supposed to be a two-way street.  I see Toby giving far more of himself to her than she does to him.  It's very, very unbalanced.  I really want to like Kate.  A little more balance would make me sympathetic to her, but as this has played out, I just find her annoying.

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On 2/11/2018 at 6:58 AM, debraran said:

I'm looking forward to the kids in their early twenties.  We haven't seen that.  How do they show Kate's weight gain?  At what point will the adult Pearsons play their earlier selves.  We got to see Randall and the birth of his daughter but when does that line stop?  I love the teenage actors and it will be interesting to see how far they carry them forward. 

I would love to see Logan Shroyer get Adult Kevin's spiky/bedhead haircut. I can see it being really flattering. I'm assuming he got it somewhere around 1999/2000, although of course, much spikier and probably bleached. (Justin Hartley has mostly kept to a variation of that look for the 16 years since he first showed up on Passions, although he's laying off the bleach more often than not.)

Of course, I grew up as a teen in the early 2000's so I will always find that spiky haired surfer/skater boy look kind of hot.

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7 minutes ago, methodwriter85 said:

Of course, I grew up as a teen in the early 2000's so I will always find that spiky haired surfer/skater boy look kind of hot.

Nick Carter from the Backstreet Boys has a lot to answer for.

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:12 PM, bettername2come said:

The Big Tree.

Nicely done!

I to had to come back to this episode. No way I could have watched it so close to the big Superbowl ep.

"I'd like to punctuate my inspiring speech by standing up, winking at you, and walking away, but all that would take at least 6 minutes ..." made me love Dr. K. all over again. As mentioned up-thread, that scene combined comfort for Kate with a refusal to let her wallow in Jack's perfection. It made a nice counterpoint in Jack's haunted expression when he hugged Rebecca, and she couldn't see his face, but we could see his avowed certainty slip for a moment, revealing how terrified he really was.

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On 2/10/2018 at 12:14 PM, Clanstarling said:

Interesting.  How does the building industry survive in winter in cold climates?  I know houses need basements where the ground freezes.

Odd factoid... A career test I took in college recommended Funeral Director as one of the top 5 or so professions they thought I'd like and excel at.  Heh.  IRS Agent was another.  Must be my cold heart.  

If the contract to build a new house is signed in the winter, they have to wait until spring to dig. I signed a contract in December in NJ, but the winter that year was mild so they were able to dig. Cemeteries might differ because there is less ground to dig up.

A personality test I took in elementary school told me I should be a funeral director also. It seemed to depend on my answer to whether I would prefer to build a birdhouse or paint a birdhouse.

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51 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

If the contract to build a new house is signed in the winter, they have to wait until spring to dig. I signed a contract in December in NJ, but the winter that year was mild so they were able to dig. Cemeteries might differ because there is less ground to dig up.

A personality test I took in elementary school told me I should be a funeral director also. It seemed to depend on my answer to whether I would prefer to build a birdhouse or paint a birdhouse.

The quote function messed up a bit. The quote that says it's from me, was actually from @Winston9-DT3. My answer to that quote was similar to yours (with less expertise):

Quote

The building industry does a lot of planning. Foundations are pretty much the first thing, and I think - especially in cold climates - they schedule that part of the process early  on when (hopefully) the ground isn't frozen. The new house next door had its foundation dug out in September, I think. And most of the digging and other ground work was done before winter. Now it's all inside stuff.

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minority opinion here: 

what tedious turd of an episode: i found the endless exposition and contrived foreshadowing, not to mention the clunky symbolism (rebecca and the bridge), so emotionally manipulative that instead of tearing up when the writers wanted me to, i was just pissed off. reminded me of "parenthood," which, for me, is not a good thing. 

Edited by wonderwoman
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On 2/10/2018 at 12:10 PM, sioux21 said:

I think "the Rachel" would have been a good hairstyle for her during the mid to late '90s.

Rebecca had somewhat of a "Rachel" in "The best washing machine in the world" episode. The one where the boys fought on the football field. Maybe that year was 1995? Not sure, but she definitely looked different than how she looked in 97/98. 

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On 2/23/2018 at 5:24 PM, Violetgoblin6 said:

Rebecca had somewhat of a "Rachel" in "The best washing machine in the world" episode. The one where the boys fought on the football field. Maybe that year was 1995? Not sure, but she definitely looked different than how she looked in 97/98. 

She did and I liked it on her, but then they had Rebecca revert back to her Farrah hair.

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Love that people are discussing Mandy's makeup and hair because her look in the 90s is always totally unrealistic.  Her hair is always "Done" and her makeup is always perfect, even after the housefire.  Give me a break! And she seems to be the only actress on the show that always looks like that.   And both her 90s hairstyle and makeup is very 2018, not 1998.  I had the Rachel, so the comments about it here are spot-on.  I was like 16 though so maybe it makes more sense.

I love the scene about Randall memorizing the phobias and Rebecca saying something like "Great job, Baby" and him politely saying "Thank you" and then sitting back down.  LOL!

I love the Alanis Morissette thing because to me, skipping a day of school now seems just so goddamn inconsequential and honestly who the hell cares.  We killed ourselves over high school and now I realize how stupid it all is.  Plus Alanis really WAS the artist of that time.  Furthermore, when Jack said "Now who's this Atlantis character whose music trumps a good education?" and Kate responded "Dear God" both lines were so hilarious.

My dad gave me so much damn grief over Mariah Carey :(  He was so mean to me about it.  And my mom gave me grief over Boyz II Men but at least she made it funny ("They always sound like they're constipated.")

The whole dizzy spell was weird to me.  Everyone here refers to it as a 'cancer scare' but I don't remember those words uttered on the show.  Rebecca specifically mentioned being worried about a brain tumour.  I thought it would lead to Rebecca finding out she's pregnant with the triplets.  When it didn't lead to anything, I was like, Oh lord.  (I get that it led to Jack making a speech about dying in the future.)

Milo was so sexy on Gilmore Girls, even at such a young age, and I think it's because his character had so much vulnerability and nuance and complexity and maybe, anger?  (If my math is correct, he was 25 when he started on GG, but I think his character was 17 ish.) Here, Jack has no nuance.  He's not allowed to really show any colour.  I wonder if other people can see what I'm trying to say.  It's hard to grab on to this character and find him appealing.  Maybe because he doesn't feel real.

Edited by Ms Blue Jay
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On 3/24/2018 at 4:05 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

I love the Alanis Morissette thing because to me, skipping a day of school now seems just so goddamn inconsequential and honestly who the hell cares.  We killed ourselves over high school and now I realize how stupid it all is.  Plus Alanis really WAS the artist of that time. 

I can picture Teen Kate looking sadly at Rebecca's dress size label while looking at her own, as "Perfect" plays.

Quote

Love that people are discussing Mandy's makeup and hair because her look in the 90s is always totally unrealistic.  Her hair is always "Done" and her makeup is always perfect, even after the housefire.  Give me a break! And she seems to be the only actress on the show that always looks like that.   And both her 90s hairstyle and makeup is very 2018, not 1998.

It kind of bugs me because she looks better with straighter hair in my opinion, yet this show insists on giving her the Farrah look that absolutely no one was rocking at the time.

Kate, Kevin, and Randall look reasonably like late 90's teenagers (even Randall's nerd gear works for that time), but yeah.

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