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S02.E15: The Car

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26 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

At the very least have Jack say when he came out the front door that he 'had' to make sure that Kevin wasn't in the house.  As a parent, I would find that very believable.  Just another example of thoughtless writing.

I don't know how believable that would have been.  There's no way he could have gone down into the basement and come back out again.  Difficult enough to believe he made it down the fiery first-second floor stairs.  But, the basement?  Right next to where the fire started? Can't see it happening.

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9 minutes ago, Katy M said:

I don't know how believable that would have been.  There's no way he could have gone down into the basement and come back out again.  Difficult enough to believe he made it down the fiery first-second floor stairs.  But, the basement?  Right next to where the fire started? Can't see it happening.

Jack making it down to the first floor was totally unbelievable.  At least in my opinion. And picking up mementos along the way??

Making 'sure' your kid with a cast on is not in your burning house is much more believable in the list of 'unbelievable' events that night.  :)

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Just now, breezy424 said:

Jack making it down to the first floor was totally unbelievable.  At least in my opinion. And picking up mementos along the way??

Making 'sure' your kid with a cast on is not in your burning house is much more believable in the list of 'unbelievable' events that night.  :)

Kevin being forgotten and left behind in the fire does sorta fit in the whole premise of him being ignored or being the middle child.

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Kevin with a cast does not seem like the type to "quietly" sneak into a house. 

Do we know how long Jack left the kitchen? If not long, I can see him trusting what Rebecca said. To me, I think the writers covered it enough by mentioning the phone call. But, then, I'm not a parent. 

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15 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I hate 'curb honkers' and at a motel, it's doubly obnoxious. 

Do people actually do that? 

I mean personally, I’ve never seen or done it. I mean I’ve I’m waiting or picking up someone, I either knock, call or text. I know this was set before everyone had a phone but still. I always took it as something done in American shows and films. 

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3 minutes ago, -pj- said:

Do people actually do that? 

I mean personally, I’ve never seen or done it. I mean I’ve I’m waiting or picking up someone, I either knock, call or text. I know this was set before everyone had a phone but still. I always took it as something done in American shows and films. 

They sure do.

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17 minutes ago, -pj- said:
16 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I hate 'curb honkers' and at a motel, it's doubly obnoxious. 

Do people actually do that? 

I mean personally, I’ve never seen or done it. I mean I’ve I’m waiting or picking up someone, I either knock, call or text. I know this was set before everyone had a phone but still. I always took it as something done in American shows and films. 

We had neighbors who (thankfully) moved out a few months ago.  I think they ran a restaurant?  The kids would come home after school, and around 5, the dad would come home to get them, but he'd just sit there and honk the horn until they came down.  Very obnoxious.

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That’s just crazy! And seem pretty pointless. I mean if there’s loads of houses who knows who is beeping? Plus outside people housing. Noise pollution. Just get out the car and walk or even just pick up the thing that is attached to your hand and call/text. 

 I actually just thought it was film/tv thing. I don’t think I’ve known or seen anyone do it in the UK. 

Edited by -pj-

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From the scene it didn’t seem like they thought they would be leaving that early. Although they were ready to go except for maybe Kevin’s tie. 

I cant imagine loosing a partner and especially given the circumstances of it. Rebecca was pretty much out of it until her talk with Dr K. She seemed like she hadn’t a clue what was happening and the montage at the funeral service helped build that picture. It started and was over just as quickly. It kinda just lasts you without realising. She was working with that reptilian brain. Just functioning but not a help to anyone not even her children at this point. So I guess she was kinda oblivious at that point about her surroundings.   

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3 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I did like the scene with the coffee cup and concert tickets.  I think that is exactly the sort of stuff that is really hard after a loss... the hundred little reminders every day.    

Oh yes, so very true.  In this case, unless there is a garage, there aren't going to be too many tangible, mundane things left like this and his watch, ring, notebook, keys.  Some of the last things that he touched and used. 

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It’s akways the little things that get you. Never the big things. Those small things and moments that usually fleet by beacuse of their simplicity. Leaving shoes, some dinners and food, a film or just belongings. 

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1 hour ago, memememe76 said:

Do we know how long Jack left the kitchen? If not long, I can see him trusting what Rebecca said. To me, I think the writers covered it enough by mentioning the phone call. But, then, I'm not a parent. 

Rebecca went downstairs after she and Jack had sex, started putting away the Super Bowl food, and was interrupted by the call from Kevin. Then she abandoned the food and went upstairs. Some time later Jack came down, finished putting away the food and cleaning up, turned off the crockpot, and went upstairs. Then we see the crockpot turn itself back on and start the fire. So by the time the house is completely engulfed and Jack wakes up Rebecca, it seems like it's been at least an hour since Rebecca has spoken to Kevin, probably more. Enough time for Kevin to change his mind and come back.

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To me, the clock should start not when Rebecca spoke with Kevin on the phone, but when Jack exited the kitchen. If Kevin did return when Jack was cleaning up, Jack would have noticed. 

Edited by memememe76
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5 hours ago, Bethanne said:

There have been a few times where my son was planning to stay at a friends house and then in the morning I find him snoring in his bed. He's quieter when he sneaks in than when he sneaks, out. ;)

I can't believe all parents of kids over twelve don't know this is likely.  I know of two cases where teens came home unexpectedly and their father shot them, thinking they were intruders. 

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30 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

Rebecca went downstairs after she and Jack had sex, started putting away the Super Bowl food, and was interrupted by the call from Kevin. Then she abandoned the food and went upstairs. Some time later Jack came down, finished putting away the food and cleaning up, turned off the crockpot, and went upstairs. Then we see the crockpot turn itself back on and start the fire. So by the time the house is completely engulfed and Jack wakes up Rebecca, it seems like it's been at least an hour since Rebecca has spoken to Kevin, probably more. Enough time for Kevin to change his mind and come back.

Maybe they have extra information that we don't. Such as the door was locked and the kids don't have keys.  Or, the door is super squeaky and you can't get in or out without waking the whole place, although these people were sleeping through an inferno, so probably a squeaky door wouldn't wake them on a regular basis.  Do we know how Kevin got to sophie's?  I'm kind of assuming he wasn't driving with a broken leg, so he would have needed a ride home.  Which could have been provided on Sophie's end.

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11 hours ago, debraran said:

Kate is lucky to have Toby, a guy that sees her under all her issues but it grows old to keep hearing about how she killed her dad at 37. Does she ever think or talk to her dad and wonder how sad he would be that half her life has been hurting herself because of his death?  Kevin wants to be a good man, he'll keep trying, his therapy hopefully helped but Kate is not an endearing character because she pulls the weight issue as a shield too. It just gets old on TV because they made that her soul. We don't know much about Rebecca and her past but Kate seemed to be weight and music and Jack wanted her to try her wings with that.

How many times can I love this?  Whether it's God, another deity, or just the universe in general, part of me believes that Jack directed Toby to Kate.  As much as Jack coddled and spoiled Kate, the recent Alannis conversation said to me that Jack would be terribly sad/upset that Kate was wasting her life in this way.   The Alannis conversation was Jack urging Kate to follow her passion, embrace music, and live her life as Kate Pearson.  I don't think he'd want her to do what she's currently doing at all.  I think with the presence of Toby, Jack has done all that he can.  Kate has to want to make a different decision than the one she's made for years.

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16 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I have to say I'm kinda of amazed at what some people have stated about what a 67ish person should look or act like.  It's like they should be feeble or something.  Isn't Oprah 63?  Meryl Streep is 68.  I could go on.

When I read about this, I have the same reaction-- and I keep wondering if the people I know who are in that age range are fountain of youth anomalies, because they don't come off nearly as "old" as Rebecca ! I can believe Oprah and Meryl and other celebrities have surgical and other aids to help them look young, but the people I know personally are just everyday folks and they also look and act much less "old" than Rebecca. I actually think Rebecca and Miguel look fakely old, excessively so. The make up and wigs are the worst of it-- they look so ridiculous, it's astonishing. Other shows have wigs that look more convincing, and I don't know why a show with these ratings would have budget issues forcing them to skimp on this kind of thing. But it's also, especially with Rebecca, something about how muted, stilted and slow she seems. That's just not the case with anyone I know. Younger Rebecca is more expressive. Aging wouldn't make her voice change to a modulated whisper, it wouldn't make her stop smiling, it wouldn't make her seem repressed and dull. If that's supposed to be aging, it's way off. And I don't like it if it's supposed to be that she's as stuck as Kate is wrt grieving, either. At least Kate preserved her basic personality!

 

11 hours ago, debraran said:

I hope next season we see more growth with Kate but I know Chrissy has to decide if she wants to lose weight and that will effect the script with that plot line.

Kate can grow as a person and heal from her guilt and other issues whether or not she becomes thin, though. Or she could become thin and still be obsessed with her guilt. I don't think the story has to hinge on Chrissy's weight.

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38 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

To me, the clock should start not when Rebecca spoke with Kevin on the phone, but when Jack exited the kitchen. If Kevin did return when Jack was cleaning up, Jack would have noticed. 

He could have returned before Jack came down. The point is that, as a parent, you can't take a teen's word from a conversation that happened hours earlier at face value. Checking whether Kevin was in his room should have taken precedence over the dog (and definitely over the mementos).

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On 07/02/2018 at 1:35 AM, kittyglitter said:

lso, as an animal rescue volunteer, I will lose my shit if Louie is dumped at a shelter. The least they can do is find him a home with a friend. Please don't take him to the shelter! (And pleading for a fictional dog is when I know I've thoroughly become one of "those" people, LOL.)

When Kate was sitting in the dark kitchen (i think) with the dog on her lap I knew what was coming and turned off the episode.  I just can't watch that sweet little dog, who did no wrong get shuffled to another house because Kate feels a certain way.  I am totally one of "those" people ever since we rescued a dog off the highway in a cold winter storm. She now lives in her own bedroom with a queen size bed and is probably better travelled then the trash who dumped her. I'm mush when it comes to animals.

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5 minutes ago, possibilities said:

When I read about this, I have the same reaction-- and I keep wondering if the people I know who are in that age range are fountain of youth anomalies, because they don't come off nearly as "old" as Rebecca ! I can believe Oprah and Meryl and other celebrities have surgical and other aids to help them look young, but the people I know personally are just everyday folks and they also look and act much less "old" than Rebecca. I actually think Rebecca and Miguel look fakely old, excessively so. The make up and wigs are the worst of it-- they look so ridiculous, it's astonishing. Other shows have wigs that look more convincing, and I don't know why a show with these ratings would have budget issues forcing them to skimp on this kind of thing. But it's also, especially with Rebecca, something about how muted, stilted and slow she seems. That's just not the case with anyone I know. Younger Rebecca is more expressive. Aging wouldn't make her voice change to a modulated whisper, it wouldn't make her stop smiling, it wouldn't make her seem repressed and dull. If that's supposed to be aging, it's way off. And I don't like it if it's supposed to be that she's as stuck as Kate is wrt grieving, either. At least Kate preserved her basic personality!

I actually think older Rebecca’s difference in demeanor is purposeful — both Fogelman and Moore have spoken about portraying her as having this underlying sadness from Jack’s death.  That’s not to say that Rebecca doesn’t have any moments of joy, but it is meant to reflect that this sudden and devastating loss did take a toll. 

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On 2/6/2018 at 9:38 PM, balmz said:

what a horrid episode,

 

the overhype and endless shilling of jack has gone beyond annoying, i would argue it's even worse that what they did with wesley crusher's character on star trek if that's even possible

kate being rewarded for skipping school was so stupid, at the least even if she was still allowed to go, she should have been punished afterward

kate blaming herself was annoying, it made it seem like she wanted everything to be about her

the foreshadowing jack's death was beyond annoying

the car saleman part was so damn stupid and annoying, there's no reson why they couldn't have gotten a used car, my family has gotten them and they are fine, also wouldn't getting a used car be like adopting randall or getting louie, they are giving someone or something a loving home

Randall really annoyed me with the watch, like who the hell does that? what is he going to pick through jacks stuff and steal the clothes he was wearing when he died as well?

Well at least we know about nick, i wonder if he died during the war or after and if he died after what happened

the bridge scene was annoying and really random and unneeded

the miguel part was so stupid and over the top, like i'd think your mother would take priority even over your best friend

also the urn ashes was weird

This show really seems to ANNOY you, when it isn't stupid, weird or horrid. I suffered secondary angst reading all the negativity. To each his own. Unlike The Bachelor or similarly made-to-be-mocked TV entertainment, I never saw This Is Us as a good "hate watching" opportunity. To each his own I guess.

I thought this episode was a POSITIVE episode accurately & warmly displaying a family dealing with loss (especially a sudden, unexpected loss) and all the messy and sometimes selfish and not pretty emotions that go with that. Dealing with it alone & together. Celebrating good memories while in pain. Laughing & crying at the same time. Been there, done that. Like others, I enjoyed the performances of the teen actors, Mandy Moore, and Gerald McRaney. 

I hope they took what was left of Jack & his urn to the Springsteen concert with them! ;)

Edited by ChiMama
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On ‎02‎/‎07‎/‎2018 at 12:04 PM, pawsodoom said:

When my dad passed, my mom gave away a lot of his clothes to other family members and the rest were donated. The one thing I wouldn't let her give away was my dad's Member's Only jacket (yes, I'm dating myself here). My dad died a couple of weeks before the start of my sophomore year of high school, and I wore the jacket every single day that year, no matter what the weather. It was comforting to me. I didn't care if any of my classmates thought it was weird. As I worked through my grief, I stopped wearing it. 

Everyone reacts and deals with grief differently. The fact that Randall was wearing the watch doesn't bother or surprise me at all. 

When my mother died, I went walking with my dad and it was a little cool, so my dad gave me the gray sweater he was wearing.  I continued to wear it on and off through out the time I was home.  When I left I tried to give my dad back the sweater, but he said "You keep it."  My dad ten year later.  I still wear the sweater all the time, even though I probably look dumb in an oversized man's sweater.  It reminds me of both my parents." 

This has nothing to do with "This Is Us".  Sorry, Moderators :).

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On 2/7/2018 at 1:11 AM, doodlebug said:

I’m an OB/GYN, not a pathologist or cardiologist; but I think they’re totally overplaying the smoke inhalation as the cause of death in order to enhance Kate’s guilt.

Anyone who dies outside a hospital or within 24 hours of admission to one is a coroner’s case.  The only exception is for people with known life threatening or terminal conditions who are currently under the care of a physician willing to attest to the cause of death.  So, Jack’s death would trigger a coroner’s investigation, and, given the circumstances, the coroner would’ve been virtually obligated to do an autopsy where he/she would’ve found extensive blockages of the coronary arteries which would’ve put Jack at high risk of a heart attack, fatal or not, in the near future even without the fire.

As far as the smoke inhalation;  he would’ve experienced progressive respiratory failure leading to hypoxia ( low oxygen levels) and cardiac arrest from profound lack of oxygen over time if the smoke inhalation was the main issue. It would not have been the sudden, unexpected event we saw on the show.

We all know heart attacks can be triggered in people at risk for them by stress, physical or mental.  Awakening to find your home engulfed in flames and then having to help your family escape and watch your house burn to the ground  certainly qualifies as the sort of emotional and physical ordeal that could bring on a heart attack in a vulnerable individual.

I certainly don't want to disagree with you, as I'm sure you know better than I do when it comes to coroner's cases, but is this something that varies by state or is it a blanket rule for everywhere?  I only ask because my father died suddenly and unexpectedly within 3 hours of being admitted to the hospital.  We were given the option to have an autopsy to find out the exact cause of death, because they couldn't really tell us (they assume he threw a clot that caused him to arrest), but it was up to us.  My attitude was that he would still be dead whether we knew for sure the exact cause or not, so, it didn't really seem to make sense to do an autopsy, it won't change anything.  But, anyway, I was just curious, because in this case, it sounds like it shouldn't have been a decision we got to make.

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I loved Jack's speech to the car salesman.  Heck, he could make a bundle selling cars to people by painting pictures of their future life.

I thought this episode was much sadder than the last.

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12 hours ago, possibilities said:

When I read about this, I have the same reaction-- and I keep wondering if the people I know who are in that age range are fountain of youth anomalies, because they don't come off nearly as "old" as Rebecca ! I can believe Oprah and Meryl and other celebrities have surgical and other aids to help them look young, but the people I know personally are just everyday folks and they also look and act much less "old" than Rebecca. I actually think Rebecca and Miguel look fakely old, excessively so. The make up and wigs are the worst of it-- they look so ridiculous, it's astonishing. Other shows have wigs that look more convincing, and I don't know why a show with these ratings would have budget issues forcing them to skimp on this kind of thing. But it's also, especially with Rebecca, something about how muted, stilted and slow she seems. That's just not the case with anyone I know. Younger Rebecca is more expressive. Aging wouldn't make her voice change to a modulated whisper, it wouldn't make her stop smiling, it wouldn't make her seem repressed and dull. If that's supposed to be aging, it's way off. And I don't like it if it's supposed to be that she's as stuck as Kate is wrt grieving, either. At least Kate preserved her basic personality!

 

Kate can grow as a person and heal from her guilt and other issues whether or not she becomes thin, though. Or she could become thin and still be obsessed with her guilt. I don't think the story has to hinge on Chrissy's weight.

I agree, re aging. I'm Rebecca's age and I don't walk "old" or look as old as she is made to look. We are all different, but she isn't 70's.  She shouldn't be carrying a dull look so many years after Jack passed, she married Miguel, live life fully and with joy until you also pass. It's more her movements  and dour look than her wrinkles etc. I want to see her belly laugh with her grandkids and hopefully Miguel in the future when people have dried their eyes. We can love more than one person in your life, not the same, but it can be done.

Re Kate, I agree, she can be messed up thin or heavy and had issues with her father alive. That said, it was Fogleman and others that said her weight was more about her guilt and mourning her dad. (although it is rarely one thing) Any contract supposedly was pushed aside and Chrissy said they touch base often and discuss script options.

The way I look at it, if they wanted someone heavy who loses weight, they could have gone the Tobey route and got someone who wore heavier padding and then lost it, which is their plan with him.  They also made her character all about weight, from getting notes by the pool by nasty friends to much later, blaming a music producer for not liking her because of it.  It was always an issue.  I've always said, "Who is she?" What does she like besides music, hobbies, friends, movies, make her multi-dimensional so people don't just see that. It's hard not to concentrate on it when it's all the script is about.

Edited by debraran
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4 hours ago, Mrs. DuRona said:

We had neighbors who (thankfully) moved out a few months ago.  I think they ran a restaurant?  The kids would come home after school, and around 5, the dad would come home to get them, but he'd just sit there and honk the horn until they came down.  Very obnoxious.

When we carpooled, one of the moms would drive into our U shaped driveway, stop right outside the front door, and honk without waiting to see if the kids would come out. Pissed me off each time. 

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Rebecca honking for the kids probably had several purposes. First, it kept her in the car that was the focus of the episode, allowing for glimpses of the tickets and the coffee cup. Secondly, production didn't have to construct an interior motel room set for her to step into, although I suppose angled right she could just stay outside the door after knocking.

Toby may be a godsend for Kate but he keeps up the pattern of her always having a man to cheerlead for her, love her unconditionally and pay the bills. First Jack, then Kevin, then Toby.  Even if your dad lives until *you* are 70, little girls shouldn't be relying on daddies to run their lives forever.

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5 hours ago, Optimist48 said:

I actually think older Rebecca’s difference in demeanor is purposeful — both Fogelman and Moore have spoken about portraying her as having this underlying sadness from Jack’s death.  That’s not to say that Rebecca doesn’t have any moments of joy, but it is meant to reflect that this sudden and devastating loss did take a toll. 

Current Rebecca reminds me of a relative of mine who was widowed about five years ago and in the same age range. It's not like you'll never see her laugh or smile but there's just this...sadness now, that hangs over her and their adult children (as in, we will never celebrate Fathers' Day again even though we're fathers of young children ourselves, because Dad Is Gone, for one example, and no, he didn't die on Fathers' Day). Her sister was widowed a few years earlier in similar circumstances (a spouse with health issues but a sudden death) and grieved of course, but is much more vibrant and active in the community and with friends. She doesn't mind going to social events or even traveling alone, while her sister can't possibly as She Doesn't Have a Husband Anymore. Counseling is just...not going to happen, alas. Some people recover emotionally from tragedy and some people don't. I think we see that with the Pearsons overall.

So, I don't look at Rebecca's demeanor now as the writers saying all women in their late sixties or widows are like that. If we ever get to see another widow in the same age range or other friends, they might have very different personalities from her. I do wonder if they want to limit having Old Rebecca around people who are that age in real life.

This was the first episode where I noticed Middle Aged Rebecca has some wrinkles under the eyes. That's probably been there the entire time she's played that age, but I watched a scene on my phone and maybe the different resolution helped me spot it more easily.

Edited by Dejana
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When you look at Rebecca, though:

1.  She always feels like she is the lucky one who married “up” with Jack who was the better husband and father.

2.  Kate is mad at her mom for living so Rebecca has years of trying and failing to connect.

3.  Kevin is always mad at her and has moved far away.

4.  Randall is close, but she had the burden of the secret and also watched him suffer a mental breakdown.

5.  She has the chance for happiness with Miguel, but her children can barely tolerate him (and several can’t at all), which has to be hurtful and exhausting on family get togethers.

I would look older than my age, too.

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We don't yet know what Rebecca may have experienced in the intervening 20 years since Jack died.  She said to Kevin, I think, that for a long time she didn't know how she would go on, words to that effect.  About ten years later we see her find Miguel on Facebook.  We may yet see her have a tough illness to deal with.  We age in our own ways, so many variables in play -- genes, fitness levels, sun exposure, drinking, smoking, etc.  I've seen people in their 40s look like they're in their 60s and vice versa.  I can also totally buy that she has found peace and contentment but that after such a dramatic loss some of her spark is just forever dampened. 

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On 2/7/2018 at 10:04 AM, Trillium said:

The car salesman probably lowered the price just to get Jack to shut the hell up. I like Jack but good grief that was a bit much, even for Jack. 

I so agree!  I let a lot of things go on this show (we pretty much have to), but that really was a bit much.  Far too much of a long-winded speech, far too unlikely chance of that kind of outcome, just unrealistic and ridiculous.  I think they could have conveyed the same spirit/idea without being so over the top about it.

Re Kate skipping school:  There was nothing to indicate that it was exam week or finals week or whatever.  She clearly was supposed to be in school, had not gone, and had done so without telling her parents.  She said there were no exams that day as a way of making it seem not so bad.  (I used to say exactly the same thing when I wanted to stay home from school because I "wasn't feeling well.")  Missing school on a day with a test or exam is worse than missing a regular day of school.  But missing a regular day of school is still skipping school, and I thought it was pretty clear that was the case here.  She looked alarmed and guilty when she saw Jack, and if she didn't have to be in school that day I'm sure that would have been discussed prior to that day or at the breakfast table that morning.  Jack was wrong, btw, to coddle her and let her off so easily like that.  Not only did she skip school, but she did it behind her parents' backs.  I would have been all over my child for not only missing school, but lying/deceiving.  If he hadn't seen her, she would have come home and pretended she had been in school because she knows she should have been there.  That's not okay, and no way should that have been rewarded. 

(I think the words "test" and "exam" are being used interchangeably, which was also the case when I was in school, and when my kids were in school.  Tests or exams are given on regular school days too, not just during exam week.  Final exams are a whole different thing, with certain exams being scheduled on certain days in a one or two-week period and probably not a lot else going on, and attendance rules are different.  But that would be at the end of the school year, in May or June.  It was very clear to me that Kate was skipping a regular school day, and that she told Jack that there were no tests that day simply as a way to hopefully minimize her "crime".   If not, then why the obvious guilt and lack of something like, "Dad, you know it's exam week and I don't have to be in school today!"  Instead she was worried that he was going to drive her to school.  Because she knew that's where she was supposed to be.)

Edited by DebbieM4
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On 2/7/2018 at 10:42 AM, doodlebug said:

I think, considering how Kate was so very close to her father, how extraordinarily sensitive (and self centered) she isand just because it didn't need to be said at that moment or ever; I would've never mentioned the smoke inhalation as the specific cause of Jack's death and instead stressed the obvious hidden heart disease as the culprit. Rebecca did a good job of telling Kate that it was Jack's choice to go back into the house, but I think it might've been better had the emphasis been placed on his underlying cardiac disease and not on the fire's aftereffects as the cause of his demise.  As it is, part of the reason I find adult Kate so very hard to tolerate is her "me, me, me, the world revolves around me" attitude and, in a weird way, blaming herself for Jack's death only helps her continue to put herself into the middle of the tragedy.

My nephew died at age 5 and was cremated (in part because he didn't like the dark and didn't like bugs; so my sister was emotionally unable to think of putting his body in the ground).  Her mother in law was opposed to cremation and very vocal in those feelings.  So, my sister and her husband purchased a cemetery plot, had a wake with him in the casket which went to the church and then the cemetery where we had a graveside prayer.  After everyone left, the funeral home took the casket and body to the crematorium,  Nobody at the cemetery even noticed that the casket was sitting on ground covered with a tarp and there was no hole underneath.  A couple weeks later, several of us went back to the cemetery where a portion of his ashes were buried.  My sister kept a small urn, which interestingly, she never told my parents about because the idea of dividing the ashes bothered them.  My sister's mother in law went to her own grave never knowing the casket wasn't in the grave and my parents never knew there was a second urn.  Sometimes, it's a kindness to keep the specifics private, IMO, which is why Rebecca should've been a little less forthcoming in discussing the cause of Jack's death with the kids.

I agree with your first paragraph completely.  The fact that Jack didn't actually die going back in for the dog was fortunate (in relation to this topic)  because it made it much easier to alleviate Kate's guilt by emphasizing the heart attack that actually killed him.   And yes, I find adult Kate hard to tolerate too.  Clearly the entire family went through something that was tremendously difficult, and Kate had lost the one person who seemed to always accept and love her.  However, I often find her insufferable.  She wears this loss sometimes like a badge of honor and at other times like a Get out of Jail free card.  Way too much "poor Kate", and way too much use of it as an excuse and a need to be treated with kid gloves by everyone always.

The story about your nephew is sad.  It reminds me of a friend who died in the World Trade Center on 9/11.  No remains were found for quite awhile, and when they were, it was only a fairly small bone that was retrieved and identified.  His wife chose to have a graveside service with the bone in a full-size, borrowed casket.  Only a handful of very close friends knew the truth.  Everyone else (including his mother) thought the casket contained his body and would be buried.  His wife wanted to retain some dignity for him, and it would have been too unbearable for friends and family otherwise.  So yes, I agree.  It definitely can be a kindness to keep specifics private.  My sympathy to you and your family on the loss of your nephew.

Edited by DebbieM4 · Reason: changed some wording to protect friend's privacy
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I can get that Rebecca was broken after Jack died.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember seeing any scenes after Jack's funeral until the kids were in their thirties?  My point, way back on the thread, was that she may have been broken but she just doesn't resemble a woman who is in her late sixties in today's world.  She's obviously upper middle class and has taken care of herself.  It's not about that.  It's about what some people who feel that someone in their late sixties should look like.  It kind of shocks me.  Her voice isn't old enough.  She doesn't walk as slow as she should, etc.  She's not 'old' enough.  I just find it amazing what some people think what sixty something should be. 

Bringing up after Jack died, I do think it's going to be an interesting story.  How do they get by financially?  Does Rebecca find a career?  I don't remember when Rebecca marries Miguel or if that has been revealed.

I guess I may be just frustrated with this season as opposed to season one.  It's like the writers and TPTB are trying to sell things that just are just beyond my level of drama TV acceptance of stuff.  I can accept to a certain point but I'm now at the point of are you for real?  You've got to work a little harder and put your egos out of the way.  I don't think I'm alone in this.  So, I don't think it's an unpopular opinion.    

23 hours ago, Cardie said:

Given that Ken Olin is one of the producers--and directed this episode--this is probably not a coincidence.

How do people know the writers aren't parents?

Yes, I know that Olin is one of the producers.  That was my point of bringing up Thirtysomething.

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56 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

I can get that Rebecca was broken after Jack died.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember seeing any scenes after Jack's funeral until the kids were in their thirties?  My point, way back on the thread, was that she may have been broken but she just doesn't resemble a woman who is in her late sixties in today's world.  She's obviously upper middle class and has taken care of herself.  It's not about that.  It's about what some people who feel that someone in their late sixties should look like.  It kind of shocks me.  Her voice isn't old enough.  She doesn't walk as slow as she should, etc.  She's not 'old' enough.  I just find it amazing what some people think what sixty something should be. 

Bringing up after Jack died, I do think it's going to be an interesting story.  How do they get by financially?  Does Rebecca find a career?  I don't remember when Rebecca marries Miguel or if that has been revealed.

We saw a flashback to Halloween 2008 in the 20s episode, where Rebecca came to stay with Randall for Tess's birth. She still looked very youthful, had shoulder-length wavy hair, and moved normally. She was sad that Jack wasn't able to meet his grandchild, but I wouldn't call her broken. That episode was also when she reconnected with Miguel. She asked Beth to help her set up a Facebook account and Miguel messaged her. So it seems like the most drastic aging has happened since then.

I think part of the reason why 60-something Rebecca seems "old" is because the show doesn't age her progressively through the years. 47-year-old Rebecca looks no different from 29-year-old Rebecca. It's like the hair and makeup people can only do "old" but can't do the subtle changes that happen as people age.

Edited by chocolatine
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23 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The point is that, as a parent, you can't take a teen's word from a conversation that happened hours earlier at face value. Checking whether Kevin was in his room should have taken precedence over the dog (and definitely over the mementos).

Yes; yes but. It's true: Jack would have tried to look for Kevin before leaving the house. But if the story's written that way, then Kevin's really on the hook, much more than Kate with Louie. On the hook for Jack's fruitless search and subsequent death, because Kevin avoided coming home that night, after he'd been a real shit to his parents that day (and a lesser shit for several weeks before). On the hook far more than he already was for what proved to be his parting shot at his father, or for not speaking with Jack when he was given that last chance. 

Had Jack gone downstairs to look for Kevin, and died for it, this might also seem to have shown up Rebecca (again) as the lesser parent -- even though it would be exactly right that only one parent take that risk. And while they'd have known it was unfair, Rebecca, Randall and especially Kate might have found themselves blaming Kevin, just a bit. The show chose not to go there. This way, only Kate blames Kate.  

A no-gravesite memorial respectfully staged by a cemetery...which Pearson talked the cemetery into that? My guess is that the showrunners wanted a service at some kind of traditional setting that would strike somber and familiar chords, but very much did not want that setting be a sanctuary: in the same way that Jack and Rebecca married at City Hall. So as not to peg the Pearsons as any one denomination, even only culturally. If Jack is Everyman, Saint Jack must be ecumenical.

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2 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

The shows name itself invites us to compare these people to ourselves and try to find common ground.  It’s hard to do when they write reactions we can’t fathom.  

This is of course an entirely YMMV situation, but I absolutely can fathom that reaction – a teenager full of sadness and anger misdirecting those emotions onto something that can’t hurt her back doesn’t seem at all improbable to me.  Beyond that, guilt leading to self-destructive behavior also strikes me as a pretty predictable reaction, especially for someone with existing self-image issues – Kate loved Louis, and pushing away another thing that she loved is a way to punish herself.  And after all, wouldn’t Louis be better off with someone else, since she’s such a worthless person (in her own head). 

In the scenario I mentioned above where the father lost his daughter, his eldest daughter gave birth to his first grandchild a few months later, and that little girl was named after her deceased aunt.  Though he was by nature a warm and loving man, he could hardly stand to be near that child for the first several months of her life.  He hated himself for it and started drinking heavily to cope.  Obviously that baby had nothing to do with his daughter’s death, but the grief and the rage that he had tried so hard to bottle up had to land somewhere sooner or later, and that’s where it ended up for a time – blocking out a relationship that had the potential to provide him with the first glimmer of happiness he might have had after losing his child.  Before I saw it happen, I never would have thought any decent, rational human being would react that way to an innocent newborn.  This all happened almost 25 years ago, and thankfully now he has a good relationship with that granddaughter.  However, the outgoing, cheerful man that he was before his loss is gone – I actually see in him what I believe they might be trying to depict with Rebecca in this story – a permanently flat, muted affect.

Edited by arabidopsis
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5 hours ago, breezy424 said:

I can get that Rebecca was broken after Jack died.  Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't remember seeing any scenes after Jack's funeral until the kids were in their thirties?  My point, way back on the thread, was that she may have been broken but she just doesn't resemble a woman who is in her late sixties in today's world.  She's obviously upper middle class and has taken care of herself.  It's not about that.  It's about what some people who feel that someone in their late sixties should look like.  It kind of shocks me.  Her voice isn't old enough.  She doesn't walk as slow as she should, etc.  She's not 'old' enough.  I just find it amazing what some people think what sixty something should be. 

Bringing up after Jack died, I do think it's going to be an interesting story.  How do they get by financially?  Does Rebecca find a career?  I don't remember when Rebecca marries Miguel or if that has been revealed.

I guess I may be just frustrated with this season as opposed to season one.  It's like the writers and TPTB are trying to sell things that just are just beyond my level of drama TV acceptance of stuff.  I can accept to a certain point but I'm now at the point of are you for real?  You've got to work a little harder and put your egos out of the way.  I don't think I'm alone in this.  So, I don't think it's an unpopular opinion.    

Yes, I know that Olin is one of the producers.  That was my point of bringing up Thirtysomething.

I work with many women in their 50-70's and none of them, except one with a hip ailment walk funny. I guess when you are middle-aged and know people in your group, it does vary greatly but I see them in yoga classes and the gym, running races, walking daily, moving and not just an age. Rebecca doesn't have to be slow, she's only 65 or so.  I actually would like to see Rebecca doing something like yoga, with others, please get her out of cardigans sweaters ; )   Maybe it's overkill because they know her real age.

I don't see Miguel with a cane, thank God.  Maybe as Fogleman hinted at, you'll see more of them when the Jack angst subsides and he needs season 3 material.  I don't want to see Rebecca aimless for too long, she's capable and smart and can be an asset to many people. I also hope Jack had some life insurance to help her while she finds solid ground.

I think Jack would want her to try to be happy, no one wants someone they loved deeply to be sad and depressed.

Edited by debraran
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1 hour ago, debraran said:

I work with many women in their 50-70's and none of them, except one with a hip ailment walk funny. I guess when you are middle-aged and know people in your group, it does vary greatly but I see them in yoga classes and the gym, running races, walking daily, moving and not just an age. Rebecca doesn't have to be slow, she's only 65 or so.  I actually would like to see Rebecca doing something like yoga, with others, please get her out of cardigans sweaters ; )   Maybe it's overkill because they know her real age.

I think varying greatly is the key.  When you see people at yoga class and the gym, running and walking, you are seeing a select group that can do that.  When I go to the state fair or different festivals or the arena to see a game or the airport where there are great numbers of people, there are loads of them of all ages of varying mobilities/gaits/difficulties.  It's just a fact that not everybody in one age group is the same.  Rebecca at 67 will not look or move the same as Rebecca at 37 or 47 or somebody else at 67.  Also, with the surprises this show likes to pull off once in awhile, she might have experienced something in the past several years, who knows, hip replacement, cancer, car accident.  Aside from the wig and sort of drab clothes, I don't have much problem with how she is in the present.  It's the years we've seen her from meeting Jack til when he dies that are sort of wonky to me. 

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6 hours ago, Pallas said:

A no-gravesite memorial respectfully staged by a cemetery...which Pearson talked the cemetery into that? My guess is that the showrunners wanted a service at some kind of traditional setting that would strike somber and familiar chords, but very much did not want that setting be a sanctuary: in the same way that Jack and Rebecca married at City Hall. So as not to peg the Pearsons as any one denomination, even only culturally. If Jack is Everyman, St. Jack must be ecumenical.

An service at the cemetery would have involved no burial since it's early February in Pittburgh and the ground would have been too frozen to dig.  Even though there was no snow on the ground anywhere and nobody was wearing winter jackets.

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On 2/6/2018 at 10:23 PM, Runningwild said:

Of course Rebecca gave Randall Jack’s watch. He is her favorite. 

Nicely done, show. I lost it as soon as I saw Dr. K. 

And Kevin has Jack’s necklace. Seems fair.

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I think chocolatine is right and they just don't know how to age Rebecca. She doesn't look any different at age 47 than age 28, and yeah, there IS a difference. And there's a difference between 47 and 67, no matter how youthtful a 67 year old can/may be. I think 67 year old Rebecca doesn't look 67---my honey, who's about the age of the Big 3, was watching with me the other nite and when I told him she was playing late 60s, he scoffed, cuz he thought she in no way looked that old. I honestly think part of it might be the difference in quality or HD-sharpness of TVs...ours is not one of those, so perhaps we're missing something, but Rebecca's face still looks relatively unlined and firm. Not that there aren't great looking 60 somethings, there are, but I see daily how my face has changed, it's just what happens. And tho I don't like the mousy bob, millions of women of all ages wear that 'do. I DO think they dress her extremely boringly. I'd not say Rebecca at any age had a particular or striking style , but she wore vivid colors and seemed to enjoy dressing up. Now, they put her in a dull beige-y palate that is unmemorable and flat and washed out. Maybe that's intentional, to show Rebecca's spark is gone, but that's just...sad.

Miguel's age makeup is stupid, tho. Really bad.

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7 hours ago, Pallas said:

Yes; yes but. It's true: Jack would have tried to look for Kevin before leaving the house, but. If the story's written that way, then Kevin's really on the hook, much more than Kate with Louie. On the hook for Jack's fruitless search and subsequent death, because Kevin avoided coming home that night, after he'd been a real shit to his parents that day (and a lesser shit for several weeks before). On the hook far more than he already was for what proved to be his parting shot at his father, or for not speaking with Jack when he was given that last chance. 

Had Jack gone downstairs to look for Kevin, and died for it, this might also seem to have shown up Rebecca (again) as the lesser parent -- even though it would be exactly right that only one parent take that risk. And while they'd have known it was unfair, Rebecca, Randall and especially Kate might have found themselves blaming Kevin, just a bit. The show chose not to go there. This way, only Kate blames Kate.  

A no-gravesite memorial respectfully staged by a cemetery...which Pearson talked the cemetery into that? My guess is that the showrunners wanted a service at some kind of traditional setting that would strike somber and familiar chords, but very much did not want that setting be a sanctuary: in the same way that Jack and Rebecca married at City Hall. So as not to peg the Pearsons as any one denomination, even only culturally. If Jack is Everyman, St. Jack must be ecumenical.

I also think the writers wrote themselves into a corner last season.  They showed an outdoor service and they had to follow through.  I wonder if they knew Jack would die in late January in Pittsburgh last season.

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I do think the makeup team could do a better job with middle aged Rebbeca- they have tried (lighter hair and some wrinkles), but that’s it. Middle age is a hard age to pull off technically, but if you want to see some great aging makeup check out the Roots (2016 remake) miniseries. Those artists were ON POINT. 

I think they do a better job with 67 year old Rebecca....Miguel looks awful, they gave him jowls!

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Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

 

I don't mind Rebecca acting aged in her movements, because the actor is 33.  They need to pile on visual cues.  I have a big HD tv and she's got a lot of aging makeup on... liver spots, wrinkles.  But she does still look good, like a Hollywood 67.  

Yeah, I really can't see that on our (aging!) TV, so I suspect that really is an issue.

Just now, Winston9-DT3 said:

It seems like it gets criticized in both directions here, doesn't it?  Some think she acts too old for 67 and some think she doesn't look old enough?  That's probably a sign they're doing as well as can be expected.  Miguel, not so much.  

Yeah, it's funny...'No way she looks 67, she looks maybe 50!' to 'Hey, I'm 67 and she looks way older than me!'. HDTV and personal perspectives.

 

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I think they do a better job with 67 year old Rebecca....Miguel looks awful, they gave him jowls!

Sadly, jowls happen. Stupid age.

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57 minutes ago, MJS said:
On ‎2‎/‎6‎/‎2018 at 10:23 PM, Runningwild said:

Of course Rebecca gave Randall Jack’s watch. He is her favorite. 

Nicely done, show. I lost it as soon as I saw Dr. K. 

And Kevin has Jack’s necklace. Seems fair.

It was the way it was handled.  Randall asked and Rebecca agreed without so much as thought to the other two kids.

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8 minutes ago, blondiec0332 said:

It was the way it was handled.  Randall asked and Rebecca agreed without so much as thought to the other two kids.

And her mind was completely clear, she wasn't distracted or grieving in any way, so it really was completely unforgivable.

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8 hours ago, Pallas said:

A no-gravesite memorial respectfully staged by a cemetery...which Pearson talked the cemetery into that? My guess is that the showrunners wanted a service at some kind of traditional setting that would strike somber and familiar chords, but very much did not want that setting be a sanctuary: in the same way that Jack and Rebecca married at City Hall. So as not to peg the Pearsons as any one denomination, even only culturally. If Jack is Everyman, St. Jack must be ecumenical.

I think your points are good ones. Of course, funeral homes provide spaces to hold memorial services - so they could have done that as a "city hall" equivalent, and it would have struck as many chords, I'm thinking. But as someone upthread mentioned, they'd already shot a graveyard scene. 

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7 minutes ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

There is going to be a mountain of Jack's stuff to divvy up. 

Like what?  Did he have mountains of stuff that he kept somewhere besides the house?

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