Season 4 Talk

[NUguy514]

If I were Junior, I'd have chosen Stanford in large part as a big old "fuck you" to Dre, but he's a sweeter boy than I.

Since my day job is in tangentially involved in the college admissions process, I always have to remind myself with episodes like these that fictional shows never, ever portray that process accurately.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One of the unrealistic things was a pile of acceptance letters arriving on the same day.

[Empress1]

4 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

If I were Junior, I'd have chosen Stanford in large part as a big old "fuck you" to Dre, but he's a sweeter boy than I.

Since my day job is in tangentially involved in the college admissions process, I always have to remind myself with episodes like these that fictional shows never, ever portray that process accurately.

Me too re: the fuck you to Dre. I loathe the way Dre treats Junior. It's not funny. (I liked hearing Junior say "Everything at Howard made me proud and happy to be Black ... except Dad.")

But I really liked Junior's reasoning for being excited about Howard, talking about different kinds of Black people - Dre definitely doesn't think Junior is Black enough (see also: Ruby and Bow), and I liked Junior subtly pointing out that there are different kinds of Blackness.

I can't think of a show that has gotten admissions and ESPECIALLY financial aid right.

[attica]

12 hours ago, Jodie Landon said:

Not sure what this means, but I went to an HBCU and I'd never heard""Alison" until tonight.

For heaven's sake, "Allison" came out in  1977. It never charted for Elvis Costello. (Linda Ronstadt's cover of it did better.) Why on earth should this be an obvious white pop-cult touchstone for people as young as Dre, let alone Junior? I have old white friends that don't know from Elvis Costello.

My only other complaint about the ep was the super creepy, unaddressed response by Junior of the girl at Howard that wanted to punch him in the face. Junior, how's about you take a woman at her word? How's about that becomes the standard, rather than 'oh, she might be saying that, but I know the truth that she's the ONE.' I know, yeah, it was played as a joke, but how's about we do better jokes? Sheesh! This was what was so HIGHLarious about Mr. Collins and Elizabeth Bennet 200 years ago!  I'm bone-damn-tired of being disbelieved every time I say anything. Parents, teach your sons better!

[nilyank]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One of the unrealistic things was a pile of acceptance letters arriving on the same day.

Junior could have been collecting them all and just waiting to open the letters all together.

[Deanie87]

12 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I don't want Junior to leave this show. He's the only child on the show whose stories I want to watch.

Yeah he is my favorite and his absence would be a huge loss to the show. And of course he new Elvis Costello. Mediocre white singer?? How DARE you, Dre.

 

2 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Me too re: the fuck you to Dre. I loathe the way Dre treats Junior. It's not funny. (I liked hearing Junior say "Everything at Howard made me proud and happy to be Black ... except Dad.")

But I really liked Junior's reasoning for being excited about Howard, talking about different kinds of Black people - Dre definitely doesn't think Junior is Black enough (see also: Ruby and Bow), and I liked Junior subtly pointing out that there are different kinds of Blackness.

I can't think of a show that has gotten admissions and ESPECIALLY financial aid right.

Yeah, it’s not funny at all. And honestly, I feel like Dre’s constant harping to Junior about having only one way to be authentically black (Dre’s way) seems to just backfire and have the opposite effect. He clearly doesn’t really know or value his son if he doesn’t think that Junior can stand on his own the way he is wherever he goes.  When he pulled that jacket out I about died.  

I also loved that Junior wanted to get his letters by snail mail. There is something romantic about opening an envelope vs. staring at a screen. Of course Dre ruined the moment. My affection and defensiveness regarding Junior is bordering on unhealthy ?.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Deanie87

[Joimiaroxeu]

When would you ever need your liver to palpitate? Either of them?

I used to love going on business trips to D.C. just so I could listen to WHUR. (Pre-internet times when dinosaurs were still roaming the earth.) It formed a lot of my musical tastes at the time.

Quote

Unfortunate that this episode was probably already in the can before they could wedge in some reference to the "Bitch Better Have My Money" protests.

Heh, when Junior mentioned he'd gotten an offer of a full ride I thought, "That full ride might turn out to be more like a carjacking." At least for him it won't be an issue since his family can well afford to cover his costs.

Quote

For heaven's sake, "Allison" came out in  1977. It never charted for Elvis Costello. (Linda Ronstadt's cover of it did better.) Why on earth should this be an obvious white pop-cult touchstone for people as young as Dre, let alone Junior?

You still hear it on classic rock stations. I agree though, it was an odd choice of a reference. Maybe the rights to more recognizable songs were too expensive.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Joimiaroxeu

[Empress1]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One of the unrealistic things was a pile of acceptance letters arriving on the same day.

I applied to nine schools and got letters on the same day - not all nine, but definitely a few at once.

42 minutes ago, Deanie87 said:

Yeah he is my favorite and his absence would be a huge loss to the show. And of course he new Elvis Costello. Mediocre white singer?? How DARE you, Dre.

Yeah, it’s not funny at all. And honestly, I feel like Dre’s constant harping to Junior about having only one way to be authentically black (Dre’s way) seems to just backfire and have the opposite effect. He clearly doesn’t really know or value his son if he doesn’t think that Junior can stand on his own the way he is wherever he goes.  When he pulled that jacket out I about died.  

I remember when Junior learned about the origins of the Star-Spangled Banner (I think?), he briefly became militant. Pops tells him that one of the best things about him is his sweetness and he can be pro-Black without losing that. That's how you value someone. Dre is just like "You're Black-ing all wrong, do it my way, and also I don't actually want to spend any time with you" which is really shitty. Also: a) Dre sees Junior every day, he knows he doesn't have any Pelle Pelle, and b) I peeped that Burberry scarf Dre was wearing on the tour. Burberry isn't exactly "urban."

Speaking of the scarf, what time of year was this? I assumed it was "real time" - the Easter episode was last week. College acceptances hit in April. While it did snow in the northeast in April this year (there were snow showers on Monday), it's not common for that to happen, especially in DC. They were treating it like it was normal - Dre was talking about the cold and snow as though it was a given. In December, yes, but not in April. That was weird. If you were going to DC in April you wouldn't pack winter clothes.

I also found it a little weird that Junior applied to Howard sight unseen, but maybe Dre insisted on it.

Given that Junior spent his childhood in predominantly white institutions, I don't think it will be hard for him at all to "re-integrate" when he goes into the workforce.

Edited April 4, 2018 by Empress1

[GHScorpiosRule]

9 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Speaking of the scarf, what time of year was this? I assumed it was "real time" - the Easter episode was last week. College acceptances hit in April. While it did snow in the northeast in April this year (there were snow showers on Monday), it's not common for that to happen, especially in DC. They were treating it like it was normal - Dre was talking about the cold and snow as though it was a given. In December, yes, but not in April. That was weird. If you were going to DC in April you wouldn't pack winter clothes.

THIS! That scene in D.C./Howard drove me NUTS. Yes, it's still winter weather (temps are still in the 40s!) here, though it's Spring. However, the only "winter storm" during "Spring" we got in the DC/MD/VA area this year was on March 21. It's a crazy season, and I suspect we'll just go from Winter to Summer this year!

Edited April 4, 2018 by GHScorpiosRule

[TiffanyNichelle]

I hated Bow's take on why Junior needs to go to Stanford. Because he'll be behind on all the white stuff and won't be able to deal with white people? WTF? I also hated how Dre pushed his version of what kind of black person Junior needs to be and that's why he should be at Howard. I liked that Junior picked Howard for his own reasons. Why Bow and Dre don't get that Junior will be Junior no matter what school he goes to. Of course he knows Elvis Costello! And don't worry Bow, either Diane or the baby could end up at Stanford. Jack....

The twins and Ruby subplot was meh.

The timing of airing an episode where Junior gets a full ride to Howard after the recent financial aid scandal made me laugh.

[Dee]

Dre's relationship with Junior is no worse than Rainbow's relationship with Zoey.

[tennisgurl]

Is Elvis Costello considered a stereotypical "white people" singer? Wouldn't Barry Mannilo or someone be a better person to use for that joke? Because I am pretty dang white, and I've never heard Allison in my life. And I love 70s music! Maybe because I was born a few decades after it came out? That was just confusing. 

Junior gets into two great schools, and Dre...makes it all about him, to the shock of not one single person. Because every single dang thing in Juniors life has to be some big insult to Dre, guardian of Blackness. Does Dre think that black people are like the Borg, and all have some kind of Hive Mind, and all act, talk, and think alike, and agree on every single thing? Because thats freaking ridiculous. Dre really has a very limited worldview (which is weird coming from a successful ad man) and sees everything based around how he grew up, and how he sees the world. He had one kind of experience as a black person, and now he thinks that there is only one way to "be a black person", and anything else is wrong, and he has never gotten that people have tons of experiences based on their own lives and interests, and that lots of black people, including his own kids, have had different ideas on how to be black, and how to just be themselves. I mean, I dont know what its like to be black so I cant tell him what to think about being black, but its generally annoying to me when anyone is told they have to be some way because of their gender, race, sexual identity, or anything, and I think it sucks, no matter the background. I kind of wanted Junior to go to Stanford just to spite him, but if going to Howard can help Junior see that he can be proud to be a black man while still being his lovably nerdy self, then its great that he is going there. 

Not that Bow was winning points this week either. It would have made more sense of she has just said that Junior should go to Stanford because its what he wants, and not try to make the idea that he wont be able to "fit into white culture" or something. Like, really Bow? Junior has spent most of his life around mostly white kids, why wouldn't he be able to talk about...Elvis Costello (?) or whatever. Besides, thats a dumb reason not to go to Howard. Just because a college is a HBCU, doesn't mean that its 100% black people, and its not like they live in a bubble. Junior will like what he likes, and thats that. She should have just admitted she wanted Junior to go to a school she wanted him to go to. Also, do people really not respect a school like Howard? I mean, current issues not withstanding, its still a very well known institution. If thats true, thats just sad. 

I did kind of giggle a few times at Ruby and the twins. 

[attica]

I don't buy/wear graphic tees, but I might need a 'Just Sayin'' mug.

[peeayebee]

3 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

When would you ever need your liver to palpitate? Either of them?

Hee. One of the side effects being liver palpitations reminded me of Stephen Colbert's various Prescott Pharmaceuticals side effects.

I loved when Charlie said, "Howard, like the duck."

[NUguy514]

Yeah, Bow's reasoning for Stanford was idiotic.

Among the many unrealistic aspects of this episode was the fact that apparently Junior either only applied to or was only accepted by Stanford and Howard.  Given his resources, there is no way he would've applied to fewer than 12-15 schools; if he had the goods to get into Stanford, there is no way he wouldn't have gotten into more schools than those two.  I can see Dre insisting Junior apply to Howard, but I don't buy that methodical Junior wouldn't have wanted to visit there first; he assuredly would've gone on at least one East-Coast college tour during his junior year with his fancy private school and could have seen Howard then.  I just didn't buy that if he loved Stanford that much, he'd have had such a quick change of heart; I'd have bought more easily if he had visited neither school before applying (also completely unrealistic) and then fell more in love with Howard.  Really, though, I need to stop trying to project reality onto this show.

[nilyank]

3 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Speaking of the scarf, what time of year was this? I assumed it was "real time" - the Easter episode was last week. College acceptances hit in April. While it did snow in the northeast in April this year (there were snow showers on Monday), it's not common for that to happen, especially in DC. They were treating it like it was normal - Dre was talking about the cold and snow as though it was a given. In December, yes, but not in April. That was weird. If you were going to DC in April you wouldn't pack winter clothes.

I wonder when they filmed those scenes because that looked like the actual campus of Howard University.

 

3 hours ago, Dee said:

Dre's relationship with Junior is no worse than Rainbow's relationship with Zoey.

The difference is Bow tries to have a close relationship with Zoey who isn't as keen as she is while Dre has acted like Junior is the worse and tries to avoid him.

[Dee]

8 minutes ago, nilyank said:

The difference is Bow tries to have a close relationship with Zoey who isn't as keen as she is while Dre has acted like Junior is the worse and tries to avoid him.

Rainbow really doesn't try to have a close relationship with Zoey.

She constantly judges and harangues Zoey for not adhering to her hippy dippy worldview and/or failing to live up to her unrealistic expectations.

They have their occasional moments of understanding, much like Andre & Junior, but Rainbow's inherent snottiness constantly undercuts any potential progress they might make.

[wallofsound]

Junior killed me when he said, “It’s a 9 XL”, in reference to the butterscotch Pelle Pelle.    So ridiculous.   I love him.    

[Arcadiasw]

Does Dre realize if Junior didn't go to Howard, he has three other kids to work on? 

I did cringe at the bitch comment on Diane's Instagram. I know Diane has a sadistic mind at times but she's still a kid.

34 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

 

Junior gets into two great schools, and Dre...makes it all about him, to the shock of not one single person. Because every single dang thing in Juniors life has to be some big insult to Dre, guardian of Blackness. Does Dre think that black people are like the Borg, and all have some kind of Hive Mind, and all act, talk, and think alike, and agree on every single thing? Because thats freaking ridiculous. Dre really has a very limited worldview (which is weird coming from a successful ad man) and sees everything based around how he grew up, and how he sees the world. He had one kind of experience as a black person, and now he thinks that there is only one way to "be a black person", and anything else is wrong, and he has never gotten that people have tons of experiences based on their own lives and interests, and that lots of black people, including his own kids, have had different ideas on how to be black, and how to just be themselves. 

I went to school with a lot of Dre's. I've learned to tune them out. 

[Pallida]

While I fully appreciate and support that the college experience is an academic, cultural, and maturity-building (hopefully) experience, I was bothered by the lack of looking at which university would actually fit Junior's academic interests and goals more. I can't recall if he's ever said what he wants to do in life professionally, but that should factor into the decision if he wants to be successful in college. 

[jumper sage]

On 4/3/2018 at 9:39 PM, Jodie Landon said:

I haven't been able to get into Grownish, but I would love to see a spinoff centered around Junior settling into life at Howard.

I like Grown-ish but am currently a bit put off by Zoe.  I love Junior and think both he and the granddad are my favorites.  I loathe Dre and since I have watched Anthony Anderson on his game show and see he is the same in real life I believe he is playing true to himself.

16 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

One of the unrealistic things was a pile of acceptance letters arriving on the same day.

Back in the day..............I would come home from school and find my porch piled high with large envelopes filled with catalogs and acceptance letters.  I think they mail them in bulk by calendar dates.

14 hours ago, Empress1 said:

But I really liked Junior's reasoning for being excited about Howard, talking about different kinds of Black people - Dre definitely doesn't think Junior is Black enough (see also: Ruby and Bow), and I liked Junior subtly pointing out that there are different kinds of Blackness.

I agree with this!

[Pop Tart]

21 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Junior gets into two great schools, and Dre...makes it all about him, to the shock of not one single person. Because every single dang thing in Juniors life has to be some big insult to Dre, guardian of Blackness. Does Dre think that black people are like the Borg, and all have some kind of Hive Mind, and all act, talk, and think alike, and agree on every single thing? Because thats freaking ridiculous. Dre really has a very limited worldview (which is weird coming from a successful ad man) and sees everything based around how he grew up, and how he sees the world. He had one kind of experience as a black person, and now he thinks that there is only one way to "be a black person", and anything else is wrong, and he has never gotten that people have tons of experiences based on their own lives and interests, and that lots of black people, including his own kids, have had different ideas on how to be black, and how to just be themselves.

I think this aspect of Dre has become more pronounced as the series has progressed and is a symptom of what I consider to be a larger problem with the recent episodes. In the first couple seasons Barris wrote episodes that had strong messages about black experience of life in America, but the messages were offered more subtly and with much more wit and humor. Lately I've been feeling like I'm being lectured to when I watch. Each episode has to have a very strong message that is offered very didactically with Dre eventually falling into lecture mode for the audience. Basically I think that Kenya Barris is doing a lot more telling then he is showing which makes these episodes weaker and less enjoyable overall.

Edited April 5, 2018 by Pop Tart

[Quickbeam]

As I was watching this I was laughing hard about the Elvis Costello bit. Alison (My Aim is True) came out my senior year in college and was huge in terms of appeal amongst college kids. But I'm 62 now! It was a very idiosyncratic choice to make, I wondered if one of the writers is a big Costello fan. 

I love Junior and would miss him a lot if he was to be less of the show. 

[Sheenieb]

20 hours ago, NUguy514 said:

Yeah, Bow's reasoning for Stanford was idiotic.

Very. That was such a reach. The argument would've been better if Standford were Junior's dream school. But this nonsense about not being able to acclimate to white society was on some bullshit. Just because one attends an HBCU doesn't mean that the world no longer exists when you graduate. You just learn how to code switch. Shit, even when you attend a PWI, you still have to code switch. 

[NUguy514]

2 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

Very. That was such a reach. The argument would've been better if Standford were Junior's dream school.

Which it seemed like it was at the beginning.  Her argument would've made more sense if she'd just been like, "...it's Stanford."  I agree with @Pallida that there was no talk of academic fit with regard to either Stanford or Howard – another thing that bothered me.

I'm white and in my 30's and had never in my life heard of "Allison" before Tuesday.

[jhlipton]

On 4/3/2018 at 7:28 PM, Irlandesa said:

I don't want Junior to leave this show. He's the only child on the show whose stories I want to watch.

I think I might leave the show if Junior does.

On 4/4/2018 at 5:33 AM, Empress1 said:

I really liked Junior's reasoning for being excited about Howard, talking about different kinds of Black people - Dre definitely doesn't think Junior is Black enough (see also: Ruby and Bow), and I liked Junior subtly pointing out that there are different kinds of Blackness.

One of the things that makes Dear White People so good is how it addresses the many kinds of Blackness.

4 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

As I was watching this I was laughing hard about the Elvis Costello bit. Alison (My Aim is True) came out my senior year in college and was huge in terms of appeal amongst college kids. But I'm 62 now! It was a very idiosyncratic choice to make, I wondered if one of the writers is a big Costello fan.

I'm a few years older, and loved "Allison" back in the day.

===================================================

@Dee has her opinion, and has her reasons for her opinion, but I have to agree to disagree.

Edited April 5, 2018 by jhlipton
Dee

[LBS]

Overall I liked this episode especially when we saw the Howard scenes through Junior's eyes.  I am getting slightly tired of Dre antics.  I'm just sayin'.  I also died laughing at the Joe Jackson line from Ruby,

As for the Alison song, I'm a 40 year old white woman and I can't remember not knowing that song and I don't. know. why.   Why is it ingrained in my head?  Why did I immediately sing along when I haven't heard it in a while?   All I do know is that I spent a lot of time that should of been on work researching that dang song to see if it is was in any cultural step stone movies or TV shows.  I think that it could be because he played it at Woodstock '99 but I'm not sure.

Edited April 5, 2018 by LBS

[Happytobehere]

On 4/4/2018 at 3:30 PM, Dee said:

Rainbow really doesn't try to have a close relationship with Zoey.

She constantly judges and harangues Zoey for not adhering to her hippy dippy worldview and/or failing to live up to her unrealistic expectations.

They have their occasional moments of understanding, much like Andre & Junior, but Rainbow's inherent snottiness constantly undercuts any potential progress they might make.

Thank you.  Yes, Dre is beyond awful 99% of the time with everyone but Zoey and Ruby, but in her own way, so is Rainbow.  There is a reason she picked Dre to be her spouse and is still with him twenty-years later.

While Junior opting to go to Howard makes sense and definitely connects to Dre’s treatment of him.  I also think his decision connects to how Bow treats him.  I think being away from the overbearing presence of both his parents will enable Junior to come into his own and help him be comfortable in his own skin, rather than the battling skins his parents want to wrap him in.

The thing I found interesting about the Jack and Diane story is that much like Junior, what we saw connects to how she is treated by her family. How, not for the first time either, we saw Diane try to reach out and connect with people only to be side-eyed and dismissed.  The running, not even funny anymore IMHO, joke is Diane being evil and everyone being afraid of her, including her therapist.  While Diane has a sharp-tongued, dominant, especially in relation to Jack, personality, I think the she’s evil  persona is really a result of how she is treated. Zoey is Dre’s favorite, Junior is Bow’s favorite, and Jack is the one everyone’s finds adorable. This leaves a Diane in the role of the “just there/forgotten” child, and sometimes such kids are only noticed when they do something wrong.  So you have the pattern of Diane being neglected emotionally, only getting attention when doing something not approved of, and the cycle began and perpetuating itself, with the negative perceptions being actively and openly co-signed by both Bow and Dre.  As she gets older and tries to break the pattern, her efforts are not supported. Notice in the episode where she tried connecting with Zoey, Diane was receptive when her sister interacted with her positively. Diane was equally receptive and open to interacting with Ruby and Junior when they have moments of sharing. Perhaps if people could get past their perceptions of Diane, she would show herself to be a kind, loving, and smart young lady, who does not suffer fools; which is a far cry from the hellspawn she has been labeled as.  

[NUguy514]

Bow is farrrrrrrr from perfect as a mother, but I can only laugh at the notion that she's as awful to Zoey as Dre is to Junior.

[Dee]

Why is that laughable? Pretty much everything Andre is accused of, in terms of Junior, is what Rainbow is also guilty of....just with Zoey.

[charmed1]

On 4/3/2018 at 9:39 PM, Jodie Landon said:

I was surprised that they didn't really explore some of the most well-known HBCU stereotypes like most black universities being located in the hood,

I thought for sure they’d show Dre’s surprise at how the neighborhood is nearly completely gentrified now. Even the nasty assed carry out, Howard China got a makeover. I live in DC. I want to cry every time I drive uptown. 

”Me and Joe Jackson — we get results!” LMAO! I don’t care. I love Ruby. Even though she made me have a dream about Sinbad.

Edited April 6, 2018 by charmed1

[meep.meep]

I could have sworn they did an episode last seasonish about taking Junior to tour colleges and one of them *was* an HBC.  Am I senile?

[incandescent]

@meep.meep You might be thinking of the season two episode where they took Zoey on a college tour of Brown, Bow's alma mater. It was mentioned that Dre went to Howard, but he was pushing for a UC so that Zoey would be close to home (and so he wouldn't have to fly).

[NUguy514]

14 hours ago, Dee said:

Why is that laughable? Pretty much everything Andre is accused of, in terms of Junior, is what Rainbow is also guilty of....just with Zoey.

Dre is what I would call abusive to Junior.  Bow is not what I would call in any way, shape, or form abusive to Zoey.  Ergo, to state that Bow treats Zoey the same way that Dre treats Junior is, in my opinion, laughable.  It's not worth commenting on further because your and my observations of Bow have always been very different.

[Dee]

If Andre is abusive to Junior than so is Rainbow to Zoey, but since Rainbow is lightskinned and 'quirky,' her toxic behavior is given a free pass.

Which is essentially par for the course with this show.

Edited April 6, 2018 by Dee

[possibilities]

Dee, can you give examples of Bow being abusive to Zoey? I really don't see it, but you've made me curious. I see Dre being aggressively cruel to Junior almost every episode and I can't think of a single time Bow has been that way.

[Dee]

Rainbow spends the entirety of Lemons harassing Zoey about Zoey's activism.

When Zoey wanted to go party in What Lies Beneath, Rainbow demands Junior act as her chaperone, when they're later brought home by the cops, Rainbow blames Zoey for everything.

Rainbow is constantly slamming Zoey for being "shallow" and lacking potential despite the fact that Zoey is popular, ambitious and gets really good grades.

Rainbow accused Zoey of "throwing her life away" because she was considering leaving with Cash over staying at Cal U.

[jhlipton]

If you think any of that rises to the physical abuse Dre inflicts on Junior... I just don't know what to say. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

11 hours ago, Dee said:

When Zoey wanted to go party in What Lies Beneath, Rainbow demands Junior act as her chaperone, when they're later brought home by the cops, Rainbow blames Zoey for everything.

It was sexist to put Junior in charge when Zoe was older. Bow does worry about Zoe more because Zoe is female and thus vulnerable in certain ways. Zoe, however, should not go to drinking parties when underage. Junior shouldn't either. 

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Rainbow is constantly slamming Zoey for being "shallow" and lacking potential despite the fact that Zoey is popular, ambitious and gets really good grades

She was certainly popular on Blackish, but also pretty obsessed with her appearance and her presence on social media. She admitted "playing the race card" to get into college instead of writing a truthful, thoughtful essay, and based solely on what we've seen on Grownish, the college she chose to attend would not challenge an ambitious student who is serious about her studies.

11 hours ago, Dee said:

Rainbow accused Zoey of "throwing her life away" because she was considering leaving with Cash over staying at Cal U.

Dropping out of college after freshman year to follow the guy you've known fir a few months without any plan or commitment would more likely than not be a huge mistake. Look at how quickly he dumped her and how devastated she was while surrounded by good friends. If she had been all alone in a new city a few months later, how much worse would her situation have been? 

Zoe has a good heart and she's reasonably bright, but she's not terribly mature and is easily influenced. Junior seems young and often naive with his nerdish ways, but he's far more aware of the results of his actions than Zoe is, is not beholden to popular opinion, plans ahead,  and seems to be the glue that holds the family together. I fear for Devante when he is gone. 

Edited April 8, 2018 by ItCouldBeWorse

[jhlipton]

33 minutes ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I fear for Devante when he is gone. 

If Devante isn't the perfect son Dre wants him to be, he'll be treated just like Junior.

[Dee]

On 4/8/2018 at 1:47 AM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

It was sexist to put Junior in charge when Zoe was older. Bow does worry about Zoe more because Zoe is female and thus vulnerable in certain ways. Zoe, however, should not go to drinking parties when underage. Junior shouldn't either.

 

Except Rainbow had absolutely no reason to worry about Zoey.

She sent Junior along to spy on Zoey because she couldn't control Zoey.

And yet even after Zoey acted responsibly, both for herself and her hopelessly naive brother, Rainbow refused to believe in Zoey's innocence, because in Rainbow's eyes everything about Zoey is wrong.

Quote

She was certainly popular on Blackish, but also pretty obsessed with her appearance and her presence on social media. She admitted "playing the race card" to get into college instead of writing a truthful, thoughtful essay, and based solely on what we've seen on Grownish, the college she chose to attend would not challenge an ambitious student who is serious about her studies.

Being mildly self centered and social media obsessed isn't a crime, especially when, as with Zoey, it's balanced with good grades, a strong independent streak and an enviable work ethic.

From what we've been shown on Grownish, Zoey is pretty much the exact same as she was on Blackish, with just a little more emphasis on her dating life. She regularly attends the majority of her classes, does well enough to qualify for prestigious internships and is trusted with tutoring Cal U's star athletes.

When Zoey "played the race card" in her college essay, it was a move Rainbow supported wholeheartedly, which is not surprising, given it was a stunt Rainbow, herself, pulled when she was in college. So if "playing the race card" is a character flaw, Rainbow only has herself to blame.

Quote

Dropping out of college after freshman year to follow the guy you've known fir a few months without any plan or commitment would more likely than not be a huge mistake. Look at how quickly he dumped her and how devastated she was while surrounded by good friends. If she had been all alone in a new city a few months later, how much worse would her situation have been? 

Except Zoey wasn't dropping out of college to follow Cash. She was considering leaving Cal U. That's a huge difference.

And as Zoey acknowledged to Rainbow, she could attend school anywhere, including online. But instead of Rainbow accepting that Zoey was an adult who had a proven track record of making solid decisions, she proceeded to tear Zoey down because Zoey wasn't adhering to her life plan.

Which is highly ironic, given how far Rainbow herself, veered far away from the values and morals D'Alicia instilled in her growing up.

But of course, since Rainbow is a DOCTOR, she is above criticism.

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Zoe has a good heart and she's reasonably bright, but she's not terribly mature and is easily influenced.

How is Zoey 'not terribly mature and easily influenced?'

It was Zoey who protected Junior at random house parties and taught him how to survive public school. It was Zoey who took care of the twins when her parents and grandparents were otherwise indisposed. It was Zoey who was deemed stable enough, by both of her parents, to be entrusted with the care of her siblings if/when something were to happen to them. It was Zoey who excelled at prestigious fellowships and dabbled in entrepreneurship, all before attending Cal U.

Zoey's also not all that easily influenced. She knows her own mind and is well aware of her limits. Hence, her refusing to continue endorsing Vivek's dealing & essentially saving the day when Aaron & Ana caused a small riot on campus.

Edited April 10, 2018 by Dee

[readster]

8 hours ago, Dee said:

 

It was Zoey who protected Junior at random house parties and taught him how to survive public school. It was Zoey who took care of the twins when her parents and grandparents were otherwise indisposed. It was Zoey who was deemed stable enough, by both of her parents, to be entrusted with the care of her siblings if/when something were to happen to them. It was Zoey who excelled at prestigious fellowships and dabbled in entrepreneurship, all before attending Cal U.

Zoey's also not all that easily influenced. She knows her own mind and is well aware of her limits. Hence, her refusing to continue endorsing Vivek's dealing & essentially saving the day when Aaron & Ana caused a small riot on campus.

Something that Black-ish and My Wife and Kids did twenty years is have it where the parents HAD to be right about their kids and when the kids weren't reminded about THE RULES, bad things happen. Then when they prove everyone wrong, they have to be once again told: "You are wrong and I'm right." Of course, both Bow and Dre's parents are exactly the same way and they continue to let them get away with that. That's what does frustrates me with shows that do that and then go: "But real people are like that too." Yes, but eventually kids learn, especially after they are on their own and have their own kids, NOT to do those same things. Example is my wife, she sadly listen to her dad about things several times because she felt he had scarified so much for her growing up, she HAD to listen to even his half-ass advice, that he never really did himself. Until our finances and other things took a nose dive and now she just agrees with him and doesn't do it after he leaves. Yet, the damage is done and he knows he caused it, but will he ever admit he was wrong? Of course not, which is as realistic as I find Bow and Dre, Ruby and Pops on this. They get proven wrong, but don't want to bruise their pride, so they look for reasons to spin it. Just like Dre's agency or the hospital that Bow use to work at. Talk about the "bad bosses" to the T and it's not funny, because they be out of work or sued so many times, they be living on the street. But its suppose to be FUNNY.

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

I think Allison was maybe a music video?   So if you watched much MTV in the 80s/90s you probably heard it.  

It doesn't look like the was an "official" music video.  So I don't know (and don't remember) if it appeared on MTV.

[Boofish]

Late to the party but the way Bow treats Zoey seems out genuine love, care, concern and hopes of bonding. Classic oldest kid sets the example, rules are little more stringent.  Dre just comes across as flat out not liking Junior.

[jhlipton]

We can see from the dorm visit on Grown-ish that Bow and Zoey have a pretty comfortable relationship, where Zoey feels that she can tell her mom about everything, including having sex.  The only time Dre is even remotely appreciative of Junior is when Jr is doing something Dre approves of in a Dre-approved manner (Jr can play basketball as long as he doesn't think about it).

[readster]

1 hour ago, Boofish said:

Late to the party but the way Bow treats Zoey seems out genuine love, care, concern and hopes of bonding. Classic oldest kid sets the example, rules are little more stringent.  Dre just comes across as flat out not liking Junior.

That is the problem. We see more of Bow and Zoey have more agreements than problems or clashes over the series. While with Junior, Dre has said and done some very mean things to Junior. While Junior has done very naive and at times very stupid things (the sharing showers idea or stock marketing based on Zoey's likes without making sure she didn't find out). Then you get things like bringing his grades up, taking care of the twins and Demonte and yes, even getting items working in the house. Yet, Dre only high fives Junior when he finally has sex with someone that his parents really didn't like to begin with. Because you know "right of passage". It goes too far at time, even with the times that Bow treats Zoey. It's played for laughs and when it is acknowledged by other characters doesn't make it right. Just makes it more poorly written. Same with Dre's office, seriously, anyone else would have left a long time ago, because if Dre has been making all this money and so forth. Any other company would have taken him and Charlie a long time ago. 

[After7Only]

On 4/4/2018 at 11:52 AM, tennisgurl said:

Is Elvis Costello considered a stereotypical "white people" singer? Wouldn't Barry Mannilo or someone be a better person to use for that joke? Because I am pretty dang white, and I've never heard Allison in my life. And I love 70s music! Maybe because I was born a few decades after it came out? That was just confusing. 

I'm guessing the Elvis Costello song may be some type of writer's inside joke.   I've heard of Elvis Costello, but not familiar with any of his music.   I kind of associate him with "white hipsters" for some reason.   However, I do love Barry Manilow : ).   The show has a several running jokes that are either completely random or have to be insider jokes.  Like Rick Fox being Zoey's real dad.  This episode also had a couple of random mentions of a celebrity/comedian (I can't remember who) that felt very insider-y.   

I think the Costello thing was funny, for the same reason that the majority of the show's Black audience immediately got that baby Devonte was named after a member of the group Jodeci, while the majority of the white audience did not.  

[Dee]

Except Rainbow and Zoey aren't shown as having more agreements than Andre & Junior. In fact, nearly any time Zoey is mentioned, Rainbow slams her without cause.

Andre regularly tries to find common ground with Junior. Over the seasons he's gotten better at apologizing to, and bonding with, Junior. Is he perfect about it? No. But Rainbow doesn't even try to find common ground with Zoey. And Rainbow's issues with Zoey aren't even about Zoey being the oldest. They are about Rainbow's ugly internalized issues that she is constantly given a free pass for, because she's a lightskinned 'Cree Summer/Freddie Brooks' biracial female character in mainstream media imo.

Even when Rainbow visits on Grownish, it's not a planned visit, it's an ambush. Andre, who would love to have Zoey home, manages to give Zoey her space to grow while Rainbow descends on her out of the blue to harangue her for not being an acceptable feminist in Rainbow's eyes. 

None of Rainbow's issues with Zoey are treated as jokes. They're treated as legit concerns despite being baseless and trite. In the past, their rare attempts at bonding have been treated as comedic, but so have Andre & Junior.

Also it's not just Andre who regularly ridicules Junior. It's the entire family...including Saint Rainbow.

Edited April 11, 2018 by Dee

[In2You]

On 4/3/2018 at 9:39 PM, Jodie Landon said:

Not sure what this means, but I went to an HBCU and I'd never heard""Alison" until tonight. And I laughed when Charlie said that he and Dre should be worried when their white co-workers eat lunch together.

Bow really annoyed me this episode with her biased views against HBCU's, but I guess I'd be hesitant to send my child there to if Dre was the biggest advocate of the school. I don't remember having problems reintegrating back into the "white world," so I thought was dumb. I was surprised that they didn't really explore some of the most well-known HBCU stereotypes like most black universities being located in the hood, or issues with the financial aid office.

I haven't been able to get into Grownish, but I would love to see a spinoff centered around Junior settling into life at Howard.

I wasn't really paying attention at the beginning so Ruby's story line with Jack and Diane went over my head.

I'd be hesitant to send a child to Howard with all the financial aid issues and housing issues they're having at the moment. And I was waiting for those things to be brought up. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

Just now, In2You said:

I'd be hesitant to send a child to Howard with all the financial aid issues and housing issues they're having at the moment. And I was waiting for those things to be brought up. 

It was't known at the time they filmed the episode.