S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Sentient Meat]

Just now, Timetoread said:

I have more thoughts but the most prominent at this moment is the question of why Sansa liking power makes her a bad person. Most people do. Jon doesn't but he's knows nothing.  The thing is that her parents raised her to perhaps be a queen someday.  Just like Cersei and just like Margarey.  If Joffrey hadn't been, well Joffrey, she very well might have been queen at this moment.  At any rate my point is that I don't like when ambition in females is portrayed as something bad.  If Bran had walked in and decided to take his rightful place, nobody would have given it a second thought.

Because she wants it for position and material wealth, and Dany despite her arrogant manner, wants to make the world a better place as does Jon.

I like Sansa, but she's like a typical Washington politician in that respect.

[gbbarb]

2 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Because she wants it for position and material wealth, and Dany despite her arrogant manner, wants to make the world a better place as does Jon.

I like Sansa, but she's like a typical Washington politician in that respect.

Where is the story has she been shown wanting the position for material wealth and/or power.  Sansa wants to be safe. Period.

[Sentient Meat]

1 minute ago, gbbarb said:

Where is the story has she been shown wanting the position for material wealth and/or power.  Sansa wants to be safe. Period.

They are not mutually exclusive desires... Sansa although she has grown and matured in many ways... still would have some of the old Sansa inside her.

Perhaps Arya was overly judgmental but why would the writers raise this point, if it meant nothing?

[Couver]

A little too convenient how Bronn and Jamie made it out. Neither looked to be in shape to swim to safety. I wanted to see them prisoners to see more interaction with Tyrion. I was glad to see that Bronn at least is fond of both brothers and isn't on board with dying for Cersei. I hope he switches to the winning side.

RIP Dickon :( What a waste of a very hot man. I wish he was Targaryn so that just his clothes burned off. Tom Hopper's err main talent was totally wasted. Not sad to see Randall go. His faux nobility was strange considering how quickly he betrayed Olenna. I was glad Tyrion called him on that.

I am very frustrated with Varys and Tyrion's hand wrigging over Dany's war campaign. They have both been with her for at least 2 years. They have seen how she has conquered. There has been violence but never anything like what her father did. Neither has batted an eye at seeing her use the dragons before. Why are they shocked now? Were they just okay with her burning non Westerosi people alive? Because that is what it seems like. Dany gave those men present a choice. A choice we've seen Cersei and other kings/lords on this show do. No one was questioning if Ned was a tyrant when he beheaded that guy in season one. Dany even seemed open to Randall taking the black. He flatly refused. She was entirely correct that if she just threw dissenters in prison no one would fear or respect her. Did Varys and Tyrion think the lords and ladies of Westros would yield to Dany without any blood shed? Tyrion has to know Cersei would never do that. It just seems like lazy writing to put doubt over Dany's actions when in the past both Tyrion and Varys were fine with her methods. Tyrion also came off like a massive hypocrite when he had no issue with those 2 soldiers getting their heads bashed in on his behalf.

I am confused by LF's plot with Arya. And I thought Arya was super paranoid with her conversation with Sansa. Sansa did defend Jon and is absolutely right that they can't piss off potential allies.

The scene with the ravens and the NK were beautifully shot. They did a wonderful job convey the mounting threat the WW and the army of the dead pose.

So very Cersei to pull a classic soap opera move and regain control of Jamie with a 'baby'. A don't believe she's pregnant for a second. I worry for Dany letting Cersei or Qyburn anywhere near her babies.

Nice little reveal about Rhegar there with Gilly. I'm surprised Sam missed it. I hope LF isn't the one who finds that scroll.

[CatWarmer]

Random thoughts: 

Sam is now the head of House Tarly (if you ignore that he took the Night's Watch oath) so is now the lord of at least some of those soldiers who just bent the knee to Daenerys.

He gave the diary implying that Jon was legitimate to Baby Sam, who hopefully kept the book and won't gum the page to tatters.

 "I thought you might still be rowing" - LOL. 

Pat the Dragon is a lot more scary than Pat the Bunny.

Jon finally knows that Arya and Bran are alive.

Waiting for the Hound to tell Jon about his adventures with Arya and that he was at (or almost at) the Red Wedding.  He has lots of stories...

Edited August 14, 2017 by CatWarmer

[xaxat]

Add me to the "Arya running game on Little Finger's game" camp.

"He just turned the corner! Now I can break into his room." is not master assassin level planning.

[seacliffsal]

So, Arya thinks she is totally sly in her spying, not realizing that LF is playing her.  She also starts judging Sansa about having their parents' room without realizing that Sansa assumed that Jon would take it and he gave it to her.  Arya was also quite judgmental with Sansa-we all have inner thoughts that we never act on, why should Sansa be held to a higher standard?  Overall, Arya is pretty self-righteous without realizing that it makes her vulnerable to LF's manipulations.

Over the course of the series, the Citadel and the Maesters have been portrayed as the centers of knowledge in Westeros.  Instead, it has been revealed that the Maesters of the Citadel are actually the Three Stooges of Westeros.  

I just do not understand how Dany and her supporters can continue with the "they all chose to follow me, I did not force any of them to make me their Queen" malarkey.  As was evidenced in this episode, yes, all of the Lannister prisoners, except for the Tarlys, willingly chose to follow Dany...so that they would not be burned alive.

I like so many of the wight-hunters that I am very nervous about their success as well as their chances for survival.  

[CletusMusashi]

47 minutes ago, maydaymayday said:

Cercei cannot be pregnant.  It is not in the  prophecy. Either she is wrong/lying or she dies before its born.

Actually, she's already had four kids, so the prophecy is already a tad wonky. Remember back in the pilot, when she told Cat about the black-haired child of Robert who died as an infant? Or, based on the show's insistance on treating Gendry as important... probably not so dead. "Hmf! I refuse to raise the children of anyone except my own twin, because I'm a narcissisitic weirdo that way... hey, you, random forgotten minion guy, go deliver this baby to the sausage factory or whatever it is we do here..." "Yes, My Queen!" followed by a sort of Snow White schtick where he secretly lets the baby live and grow up to be a pain in the ass. But even if that hypothesis is way ovethinking it, she's still already had four babies.

Hopefully this time she dies giving birth to it. And it's a dwarf. And as soon as it's born it drinks all her wine and kicks Jaime out the window.

Or, alternately, maybe she's been cheating on her brother with FrankenMountain. It'll weigh thirty pounds, have a full set of teeth, and come smashing out of her yelling "Oh YEAH!" And then it'll rampage around the bedroom smacking Jaime and Euron's heads together like coconuts. Hey, still more likeable than Joffrey...

[shireenbamfatheon]

The problem with Dany is that she's a hypocrite through and through, which has never been more clear. You know, I could be okay with Dany's actions if she owned up to them, but the issue is that she hides behind paper thin justifications and genuinely believes them, which doesn't make her mad or crazy or whatever other synonyms people can come up with, but it does make her dangerously delusional. I have no idea how she could tell them she was there to end the wheel of oppression with a straight face when she's currently THE face of oppression. She genuinely seems to believe she's in Westeros to save them from tyrants while she's confining a peaceful and just king to Dragonstone for being elected by his own people who don't want her as their Queen, refusing to aid the North unless they bend the knee, then changing her mind to refusing to fight the NK unless Cersei does it as well because she doesn't want to lose the Iron Throne, and burning people alive over giving them a quick death via beheading so as to build her rule on fear while proclaiming herself the Breaker of Chains (no way that was a coincidence on the part of the writers who had her forego most of her other titles). 

Yes, there are plenty of horrible characters in this story, but no other character is burning people alive without it affecting their conscience while proclaiming himself a messiah of everyone. That's what makes Dany so dangerous. She literally went "I'm here to save you because I know what's best for you better than you do."

And, sorry, I have a hard time taking Dany calling other people traitors seriously when she was perfectly okay with Ellaria murdering Doran, a good and just man, in his own home and usurping him as long as she allied herself with Dany. Or helping Yara and Theon oppose Euron who was elected by his own people, which is how the Kingsmoot works on the Iron Islands, because she got her army. I'm sure she'd have also been completely okay with Olenna poisoning her own King at his wedding. 

Dany isn't mad, but she is a hypocrite and a tyrant, and those don't seem to last long in Westeros nowadays. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by shireenbamfatheon

[BitterApple]

All I have to say is really Sam? Really?! Gilly mentions an annulment concerning a Prince Rhaegar and you don't think that's information worth looking into? I get that he doesn't know about Jon, but the Targaryens were a pretty big deal. You'd think his curiosity would've been peaked regardless. 

Arya was a total bitch tonight and I'm hoping we see another side of her soon, because at this point I could care less if she's the next major character to bite the dust. The comment about Sansa liking nice things was petty as hell. As for killing anyone and everyone who displeases you, yeah, look how well that's working out for Cersei right now.

My favorite lines of the night:

Davos: "This is Clov-"

Gendry: "Hi, I'm Gendry, Robert Baratheon's bastard".

Dany continues to annoy. Props to the Tarlys for going out like champs, even though it was foolish. Cersei doesn't give a rat's ass about either of them. She certainly wasn't worth dying for.

[Katalina]

I agree with those who think Arya is letting LF know she's spying on him. Why else would she make such an incredible amount of noise while searching his room?

Quote

Tyrion also came off like a massive hypocrite when he had no issue with those 2 soldiers getting their heads bashed in on his behalf.

It's the difference between two anonymous threatening guards, and two members of a ruling family who could potentially be allies.

[jbrecken]

I really wish Jon had brought Ghost with him.  He'd be very useful hunting the dead beyond the Wall, but mostly so we could have seen a "I let you pet mine - can I pet yours?" scene.

[Teitr Styrr]

Well, even after lasr weeks amazing episode, I still loved this one. For different reasons of course. All the different people meeting each other, and coming to understand their connections, that was very cool. There were quite a few of those.

Favorite part was Dany's reaction to the dragon's treatment of Jon. I just loved that scene. She has to think something is up with that, and I think her questioning the old "dagger in the heart" story was leading up to it.

Oh my goodness, the reunion of Dany and Jorah. He is so hopelessly committed to her, and her to him....as just friends. Heh. Jorah gets there just as she's possibly found a new man. Typical Jorah.

I am not afraid for Arya in the least. I hope I'm not underestimating LF, but I really think Arya is ready for this.

Cercie preggers?  Yeeeeaaah....

ETA: Oh hai Gendry! Also, loved his introduction to Jon.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Teitr Styrr

[LittleIggy]

I love Dany's "uniform," especially the three dragon head brooch. I don't care about the Tarlys going crispy critters. The old man was a jerk and the son was boring. I much prefer Sam.

[schmickschmack]

54 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Jaqen H'ghar owes Arya a full refund from his University of Phoenix quality creeping academy.

 

Dead.  Dead before the end of Season 7.  

[Popples]

2 minutes ago, jbrecken said:

I really wish Jon had brought Ghost with him.  He'd be very useful hunting the dead beyond the Wall, but mostly so we could have seen a "I let you pet mine - can I pet yours?" scene.

After what happened to Summer, I couldn't take it if Ghost died. In the very first episode, they said it was rare for direwolves to be south of the Wall, so I'm not sure how he would do on Dragonstone.

[CeeBeeGee]

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

Won't Cersei be surprised if it's early menopause.

Ooooh! Good call.

 

59 minutes ago, bmoore4026 said:

RIP, Sam's hot brother

I really liked him. Dad was a traitorous abusive dick but I liked the brother. 

 

26 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

Because she wants it for position and material wealth, and Dany despite her arrogant manner, wants to make the world a better place as does Jon.

I like Sansa, but she's like a typical Washington politician in that respect.

....No. There is no indication whatsoever that Sansa "wants it for position and material wealth." She never challenged Jon *or* Bran for position, and there have been numerous scenes showing Sansa to be a smart, level-headed, very practical leader. Arya said that about Sansa (liking "nice things" and connecting it to Sansa's being in the master suite, without knowing that Jon had *offered* it to Sansa) in an episode that showed how Arya was also being expertly played by Littlefinger. Arya's a great character but her snide comments to Sansa were way out of line here. So-just no.

 

Really tired of the assumptions that Sansa is still the shallow girl she was in Season 1. 

 

I loved the Rhaegar reveal but ultimately, it doesn't prove that Jon is the more legit leader. Dany herself has no enforceable "legal" claim here because that means nothing at this stage. This isn't the Wars of the Roses (which itself was resolved not by legalities--Henry VII's claim to the throne was laughably weak--it was resolved by right of conquest). One of the few intelligent things Cersei has said was her little monologue to Littlefinger about how "power is power." In the end power is what you make happen. Don't count too much on precedent or the system. Power is what you make happen. The reveal of about Jon's background is fascinating but can only be, at best, a distraction and at worst, a danger to him.

 

...HOW was Bronn able to drag Jaime across the length of that pond, staying underwater to avoid Dany's soldiers (surely Jaime would make a valuable hostage) and stay there long enough so that the snoke had somewhat dissipated?

[enoughcats]

3 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

1 hour ago, NeenerNeener said:

Won't Cersei be surprised if it's early menopause.

Ooooh! Good call.

Or ....if we are in the times of Henry VII to Henry VIII, Cersei could be Catherine of Aragon who thought she was pregnant with a boy for VIII, and wasn't even though it appeared to be a pregnancy but at 12 months people started wondering what was wrong.

[Keepitmoving]

47 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

They are not mutually exclusive desires... Sansa although she has grown and matured in many ways... still would have some of the old Sansa inside her.

Perhaps Arya was overly judgmental but why would the writers raise this point, if it meant nothing?

Because maybe in time we will be shown just the opposite, that, that superficial Sansa truly no longer exists. So it does have meaning, but maybe the meaning is to show how far she has come by the time they wrap up this story with Littlefinger. I think that's where they are going, Littlefinger will underestimate her and Arya will have misjudged her by the time all is said and done. 

And once again, just for the record, so what if a woman wants power just for the sake of having it?So what if she likes nice things? I don't see why she has to be judged negatively especially if I personally haven't yet seen her, in this case Sansa, do anything so horrid to get that power.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Keepitmoving

[Calamity Jane]

I have to say that Jorah's new duds looked really good on him.  And he looked much as he did before the greyscale, so good job everyone for first making him look less well, and now more healthy.  It wasn't just the lesions of the greyscale, he just overall looked more ragged and less splendid, and now he's back to looking magnificent.    

[CeeBeeGee]

6 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Or ....if we are in the times of Henry VII to Henry VIII, Cersei could be Catherine of Aragon who thought she was pregnant with a boy for VIII, and wasn't even though it appeared to be a pregnancy but at 12 months people started wondering what was wrong.

Are you thinking of Catherine or her daughter, Mary I? Mary had a false pregnancy that went on for-bloody-ever which finally, wretchedly, was revealed to be "hysterical" (the term they used at the time). I'm pretty sure all Catherine's pregnancies were actual ones.

[100PercentPain]

I'm actually wondering if Cersei sensed that she was losing Jamie's support and is lying about being pregnant to reign him back in. It would still leave wiggle room for him to turn on her in the end. 

[enoughcats]

Just now, CeeBeeGee said:

9 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

Or ....if we are in the times of Henry VII to Henry VIII, Cersei could be Catherine of Aragon who thought she was pregnant with a boy for VIII, and wasn't even though it appeared to be a pregnancy but at 12 months people started wondering what was wrong.

Are you thinking of Catherine

I was thinking of Catherine.  I'll check a biography I happen to have out of the library tomorrow and update then.

[Lady S.]

30 minutes ago, CatWarmer said:

Random thoughts: 

Sam is now the head of House Tarly (if you ignore that he took the Night's Watch oath) so is now the lord of at least some of those soldiers who just bent the knee to Daenerys.

Why are people ignoring that? The NW could be destroyed by the end of this, but not yet, and Sam still identifies as one of them. The only person who escaped his oath did so by dying in a mutiny and coming back to life. So I don't think Sam or his family would call him a lord as soon as they find out the news, and his feigned bastard son born after he took the oath to father no children is no heir either.

 

5 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I loved the Rhaegar reveal but ultimately, it doesn't prove that Jon is the more legit leader. Dany herself has no enforceable "legal" claim here because that means nothing at this stage. This isn't the Wars of the Roses (which itself was resolved not by legalities--Henry VII's claim to the throne was laughably weak--it was resolved by right of conquest). One of the few intelligent things Cersei has said was her little monologue to Littlefinger about how "power is power." In the end power is what you make happen. Don't count too much on precedent or the system. Power is what you make happen. The reveal of about Jon's background is fascinating but can only be, at best, a distraction and at worst, a danger to him.

Yeah, a secret marriage whose only proof is a dusty old scroll that's apparently been ignored all this time? And is conveniently found by the best friend of the possible secret heir? An annulment which Elia and her family never knew about to marry a girl already betrothed to another man? Real life royal marriages have been contested for far less. And Jon can't automatically jump over his aunt when he doesn't even want a damn southern throne and would have to be forced onto it, which I don't see happening just yet. But people hate Dany so much they'd rather have Jon in a position which makes him miserable (worked out so well for Ned in KL, right?) and have fighting Dany, Cersei, and the Night King all at the same time.

Cheesy as it is, I'm fully onboard Jon/Dany riding dragons together as co-Targs to defeat the WWs. No way they both survive the Great War to live happily ever after anyway.

[CletusMusashi]

28 minutes ago, jbrecken said:

I really wish Jon had brought Ghost with him.  He'd be very useful hunting the dead beyond the Wall, but mostly so we could have seen a "I let you pet mine - can I pet yours?" scene.

Well, we almost did,

Dany: "They're beautiful, aren't they?"

Jon: "Yes, they're spectacular. I can hardly believe they're real. Oh, and the dragons are cool too."

Edited August 14, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[SimoneS]

I find it amusing that Sam is swanning around Westeros stealing valuable items and no one seems the least bit concerned. He isn't even fleeing on horseback. He is in a cart with Gilly, the baby and all the loot, particularly a priceless Valyrian sword. Hilarious when you think about it. Don't know why he doesn't just grab the Iron Throne while he is on his stealing spree. LOL!

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Teitr Styrr]

Sansa craves safety I think most. Hell, she told Bran he was the rightful ruler of Winterfell as soon as she could get the words out.  I don't get the idea behind she craves power.

Also, Sansa and Arya are playing Littlefinger.  I bet even the conversation that has everyone on edge was for Littlefinger's benefit.  

[enoughcats]

16 minutes ago, Lady S. said:

a dusty old scroll that's apparently been ignored all this time?

Think of a library without a card catalog.  And a passel of librarians who are biding their time until retirement.  (When the gatekeeper will advance to one of the warmer seats in the edifice and will get to interview surly replacements.)

[MrWhyt]

2 hours ago, maydaymayday said:

Cercei cannot be pregnant.  It is not in the  prophecy. Either she is wrong/lying or she dies before its born.

who says the prophecy is correct?

[Couver]

1 hour ago, Katalina said:

I agree with those who think Arya is letting LF know she's spying on him. Why else would she make such an incredible amount of noise while searching his room?

It's the difference between two anonymous threatening guards, and two members of a ruling family who could potentially be allies.

Those two members saw to the ending of a greater House which Tyrion himself pointed out. Olenna was Dany's ally. I don't think any other leader would have let the Tarly's off any easier for their betrayal. Randall had a choice and he made it. Dickon didn't even have to involve himself but he made his own decision. Their defeat basically puts The Reach in Dany's control now anyway.

[BitterApple]

I'm kind of surprised Dany let Jorah go with Jon, especially considering Tyrion is proving to be useless as a military strategist. 

I don't know what it is about Beric Dunderion, but I find him strangely alluring. 

I understand the timeline is moving at warp speed, but it was somewhat jarring to go from a huge battle to "let's draw a truce" all in the course of one episode. 

My favorite part of the episode was the scene at Eastwatch. Having Jon, Jorah, Tormund, Beric, Thoros, Gendry and the Hound all in one place was just all kinds of awesome. The only sad part is, I don't think all of them will make it back alive.

Edited August 14, 2017 by BitterApple

[AttackTurtle]

Sansa hooking up with Gendry is not completely crazy.   I mean she was supposed to marry Robert's oldest son....and Gendry is actually his son.

[izabella]

28 minutes ago, seacliffsal said:

Over the course of the series, the Citadel and the Maesters have been portrayed as the centers of knowledge in Westeros.  Instead, it has been revealed that the Maesters of the Citadel are actually the Three Stooges of Westeros.  

I was expecting more from the Citadel myself. I guess I thought there would be more discussion and teaching, and the sharing of wisdom and lore passed down from Maester to Maester.  I was not expecting Professor Slughorn, but since he was there, he could have at least taught Sam something about mystical creatures.

If that was an example of stealthy Arya, it failed.  Just the key clicking in the lock as she left seem loud.  No One wouldn't be so obvious.   But that conversation with Sansa seemed genuine.  Maybe they are playing LF, but Arya told Sansa what she really thinks of her.

[CletusMusashi]

I'm mostly okay with how Bronn rescued Jaime. It's a river, not an ocean, so the deep part was probably only a couple yards wide. As lomg as it's muddy and/or splashy enough that they can keep a low profile crossing over to the other side, I can suspend disbelief on that at last as easily as  can on, say, blowing money on a full suit of plate armor and then running around without a helmet. Hell, as smokey as that batle area was, visibility was pretty much gone anyway.

You know what I'm still struggling with a little, though? Jaime actually took the time in all that firey tackley drowny chaos to put his sword back into its scabbard. Left handed.

Edited August 14, 2017 by CletusMusashi

[Joimiaroxeu]

Heh, Drogon's like, "Did she stutter? Y'all best be taking a knee right now lest you get BBQed."

Aw, Daenerys doesn't want to lose her new sorta boyfriend, Jon.

Cersei, the Young and the Restless called and they want their fake pregnancy storyline back.

Quote

Dany: "They're beautiful, aren't they?"

Jon: "Yes, they're spectacular. I can hardly believe they're real. Oh, and the dragons are cool too."

Cue the Seinfeld theme.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Joimiaroxeu

[Lady S.]

53 minutes ago, Couver said:

Those two members saw to the ending of a greater House which Tyrion himself pointed out. Olenna was Dany's ally. I don't think any other leader would have let the Tarly's off any easier for their betrayal. Randall had a choice and he made it. Dickon didn't even have to involve himself but he made his own decision. Their defeat basically puts The Reach in Dany's control now anyway.

Yep, bend the knee or die sounds more like Stannis than Aerys to me. Except dragonfire turns people to ash in moments, which is a lot faster than Shireen or her Florent uncle would have died. Dany singled out the commander as an example, while other men were still standing beside him, because he was the most treasonous, and she still didn't rule out the possibility of letting him redeem his treason at the Wall. I don't count Randyll not wanting Dickon to die as a redeeming moment after he threatened to murder his elder son and said he'd enjoy doing it, especially considering he's the one who put Dickon in danger from dragons by betrayed House Tyrell, to serve the woman who murdered House Tyrell. And when Dickon literally asked to die when Dany wasn't even threatening him, out of loyalty to a shitty father who didn't even want them to die together, well, then, I can't find too much sympathy for his dumb ass either, no matter how hot he he was already before experiencing the heat of dragonfire.

Let's dig the irony of Robert Baratheon's bastard befriending Ned Stark's, neither knowing that Jon's bio father was actually killed by Robert and he was only claimed as his uncle Ned's son so that Robert wouldn't kill him too.

Updated.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Lady S.

[Sentient Meat]

49 minutes ago, Keepitmoving said:

Because maybe in time we will be shown just the opposite, that, that superficial Sansa truly no longer exists. So it does have meaning, but maybe the meaning is to show how far she has come by the time they wrap up this story with Littlefinger. I think that's where they are going, Littlefinger will underestimate her and Arya will have misjudged her by the time all is said and done. 

And once again, just for the record, so what if a woman wants power just for the sake of having it?So what if she likes nice things? I don't see why she has to be judged negatively especially if I personally haven't yet seen her, in this case Sansa, do anything so horrid to get that power.

This has nothing to do with gender at least as far as I'm personally concerned.  I'm a dyed in the wool socialist... so I'd say the same about a male character.

I'm rooting for Daenerys's vision of the world... although I'm worried after watching her torch the Tarlys.  

[TigerTimes]

2 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

 

Sansa really is politically astute and I like how she was able to placate the lords because the North needs their armies/support--I really hope Sansa's  able to keep these men on their side because Arya's answer is to just chop off heads-- damn scary indeed.  And Baelish's now setting up Arya to believe that Sansa is disloyal to Jon--please let her have enough faith in her sister to give Sansa a chance to explain herself.

I was also rolling my eyes at Arya's  mean spirited "You always did like nice things" remark--yes, Arya, Sansa's a horrible person because she enjoys running the castle.  I guess Arya also sneered at their parents and Jon when they were holding Winterfell together.

I think Arya is the politically astute Stark. Arya was just saying that Sansa does not want to rock the boat because Sansa would be scared if the Lords didn't support her while Jon is away. But I think Sansa is also scared to lose power because of how Joffrey and Ramsey abused her; she doesn't want to relive the nightmare of being controlled or without certainty that she won't be hurt. Arya is a strong leader, and I think will prove to be a stronger leader than Sansa.

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

Because she wants it for position and material wealth, and Dany despite her arrogant manner, wants to make the world a better place as does Jon.

I like Sansa, but she's like a typical Washington politician in that respect.

Sansa is damaged because of what Joffrey and Ramses did to her. She isn't strong like Arya, and she isn't patient and noble like Jon. She has been dealt a bad set of cards, and it's hard for a person to come back after such harsh experiences, but she will continue to have problems unless she starts to control the Lords who are speaking badly about Jon behind his back and will eventually distrust Sansa unless she takes control.

[FishyJoe]

Is it me or is the Jon/Dany thing seem to be giving a Luke/Leia vibe?

Rhaegar went crazy like Anakin.

Jon and Luke were raised by their uncles.

Both Leia and Dany were princesses.

The Skywalkers have the Force, the Targaryans have the force of the dragons.

[lucindabelle]

I didn't realize it at the time but now Ira so obvious Littlwfinger is playing Arya. We know the note was written under duress but she doesn't. That's why in the previously they showed him smirking ar her.

ao thrilled about Rhaegaf and Lyanna! Thought for a long time she loved him. It never dreams secret wedding.

 

drogon went Lo slitty eyed. He was gonna pure in a minute.

[scrb]

I definitely recall a rivalry between Sansa and Arya in season 1.  Arya was like a tomboy, who wanted to learn about fighting.  She even teased Bran because she was better at it than him.

Meanwhile, Sansa was like a tween infatuated with boy band knockoff Joffrey.  She was thrilled to go to KL while Arya soured on the whole trip after Joffrey got the baker's boy beaten and Ned had to get rid of the dire wolf as opposed to killing it.

Arya disdained how Sansa liked "nice things" even back then.

[rozen]

Details of succession are immaterial at this point, imo. What matters if if the player has a claim of any kind, and do they have the firepower to back it up? Cersei basically has no business sitting on the throne, but here she is, with people ready to get immolated than yield to a foreigner with a better claim.  I don't see Jon being revealed as being a Targ setting up a competition, but resolving a pressing concern. Dany cannot have children. Even if she marries for political stability, she will not issue an heir to take over after her. That is actually one of the biggest issues I've had with her crusade to take her birthright, the inevitable return to civil war when she dies without a legal heir. Jon resolves that and truly unites the North and South to boot. 

Calling it now, Sansa and Arya are running game on LF. I don't believe for a second that Arya is that gullible...and noisy. Executing Northern Lords for attempted treason is step of 1 of what led of Rob having his direwolf sewn to the top of his head. Sansa does not have the political or martial will to punish anyone for questioning their King. That, and when Jon inevitably returns, he'd be pissed if she did such a thing. Letting them blow steam while keeping preparations moving for the inevitable two-way siege from North and South is the best thing Sansa can do. Lyanna Mormont is an adorable addition to the show, but I thinks she's kind of done it a disservice by making her a magic rhetorical wrench that makes all these dudes sit down, shut up, and follow orders. Northern Lords thus far in this show have been exceptionally headstrong assholes. Rob's entire military campaign showed over and over and over again that a united Northern effort of any kind is like herding cats. 

I literally don't know what Danereys was supposed to do with the Tarlys. They betrayed their oath to her house, impugned her claim, and refused to bend the knee. Making an example of those two got everyone else to yield, it was an efficient resolution to the problem. Anything else would make her look like a coward. Hell, a good portion of Northern leadership thinks Jon's a coward, and he has a literal army of undead on the doorstep to use as an excuse to pardoning traitor's children. What is she supposed to do with her literal bannerman telling her to go kick rocks? Everyone's afraid of what she might do, and not looking at what she has done. Versus people just glossing over the fact that when the chips were down, Cersei was willing to kill her own people to save herself. 

[Potanical Pardon]

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I loved the Rhaegar reveal but ultimately, it doesn't prove that Jon is the more legit leader. Dany herself has no enforceable "legal" claim here because that means nothing at this stage. This isn't the Wars of the Roses (which itself was resolved not by legalities--Henry VII's claim to the throne was laughably weak--it was resolved by right of conquest). One of the few intelligent things Cersei has said was her little monologue to Littlefinger about how "power is power." In the end power is what you make happen. Don't count too much on precedent or the system. Power is what you make happen. The reveal of about Jon's background is fascinating but can only be, at best, a distraction and at worst, a danger to him.

It is Wars of the Roses.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Potanical Pardon

[ElectricBoogaloo]

3 hours ago, Haiti D said:

They should have kept Gilly illiterate.  I'm not trying to be sexist but her literacy happened very quickly.

I know the timeline is all kinds of wonky due to the fact that everyone is zipping around all over the place this season, but I don't think that Gilly becoming literate has happened any faster than when Shireen taught Davos how to read.

3 hours ago, maydaymayday said:

Cercei cannot be pregnant.  It is not in the  prophecy. Either she is wrong/lying or she dies before its born.

 

3 hours ago, Last Time Lord said:

Ploy to keep Jaime in line?

 

3 hours ago, ShannaB said:

I highly doubt that Cersei is pregnant.  I hope it is only a ruse to keep Jaime under her thumb.  I may hate Cersei but the woman is crazy smart and definitely takes after her father.

As soon as she told Jaime she was knocked up, I just rolled my eyes. That's the oldest trick in the book. See also: Kelly Kapoor.

[CeeBeeGee]

14 minutes ago, Potanical Pardon said:

It is Wars of the Roses.

No. The start of Game of Thrones (the Starks v. the Lannisters = the Yorkists v. the Lancasters) was the Wars of the Roses. This, seven seasons later, is something much more existential--neither the Yorks nor the Lancasters ever had to deal with zombies marching from the North Pole threatening to obliterate all of mankind. This is power at its most basic, whereas the Wars of the Roses was a power grab with an attempt to reconcile such with precedent and continuity. Cersei has NO claim whatsoever to the Iron Throne--she has no corollary figure in the WotR.

[CletusMusashi]

Those dragons have gotten ridiculously huge. I accept that right now there were enough corpses on the battlefield, both human and equine, to keep Drogon fed for at least a week. But in peacetime? In winter? Or while just flying in circles around Dragonstone? Fishies and seagulls are gonna run out pretty quickly. And by "quickly," I mean, in, like, two or three minutes.

[Blissfool]

2 hours ago, seacliffsal said:

 

I just do not understand how Dany and her supporters can continue with the "they all chose to follow me, I did not force any of them to make me their Queen" malarkey.  As was evidenced in this episode, yes, all of the Lannister prisoners, except for the Tarlys, willingly chose to follow Dany...so that they would not be burned alive.

I thought we were gonna witness more of Tyrion's inner struggle regarding this. Especially after last week's episode where Missandei told him that all of Dany's followers chose her as there leader. Something like, "Yeah they chose her! Otherwise they'd be burned alive."

[Potanical Pardon]

6 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

No. The start of Game of Thrones (the Starks v. the Lannisters = the Yorkists v. the Lancasters) was the Wars of the Roses. This, seven seasons later, is something much more existential--neither the Yorks nor the Lancasters ever had to deal with zombies marching from the North Pole threatening to obliterate all of mankind. This is power at its most basic, whereas the Wars of the Roses was a power grab with an attempt to reconcile such with precedent and continuity. Cersei has NO claim whatsoever to the Iron Throne--she has no corollary figure in the WotR.

My book has North Pole zombies in it.

[FrancesL]

3 hours ago, Timetoread said:

I have more thoughts but the most prominent at this moment is the question of why Sansa liking power makes her a bad person. Most people do. Jon doesn't but he's knows nothing.  The thing is that her parents raised her to perhaps be a queen someday.  Just like Cersei and just like Margarey.  If Joffrey hadn't been, well Joffrey, she very well might have been queen at this moment.  At any rate my point is that I don't like when ambition in females is portrayed as something bad.  If Bran had walked in and decided to take his rightful place, nobody would have given it a second thought.

Sansa seems to truly care about the north, so I see nothing wrong with her wanting to be in charge, as long as it doesn't involve betraying Jon or her other siblings. Sansa may disagree with Jon on several issues, but I still think that her loyalty towards Jon will prevail. The Starks have been through so much that I think it will be difficult for anyone to tear them apart.  Arya's comment to Sansa was unfair but I don't think that Arya realizes how much Sansa has changed over the years. Hopefully she will, before Littlefinger gets in her head.

However, I disagree about Bran. I think that if he had showed up at Winterfell saying that he was the rightful heir, he would be heavily criticized by fans, regardless of his birthright.  Jon and Sansa are responsible for reuniting the North and reclaiming Winterfell, not Bran, and I think that most viewers would take issue with anyone other than Jon or Sansa leading the North . Being male doesn’t give you a pass on Game of Thrones.  In fact, the more ambitious male characters (i.e. the ones most interested in power and the Iron Throne) have all been portrayed as villains and have been unpopular with viewers. Vicerys, Euron, Ramsey, Stannis, Joffrey and Littlefinger all come to mind.  

[TVbitch]

The end was a bit: "rag tag team of rebels and misfits goes off to blow up a comet and save the planet".  It's seems to me like the show isn't taking itself quite as seriously as it used to. More wink wink moments, amazing LOTR-level narrow escapes by favorite characters, and that sort of thing. But still a great show!