S07.E05: Eastwatch

[nodorothyparker]

The scroll Arya found was the letter Sansa sent to Winterfell under duress in season 1 declaring Ned a traitor and telling Robb to get in line.  Littlefinger clearly meant Arya to find it to sow discord between her and Sansa.

 

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

The closest we ever get in book to an explanation is when Ned is thinking about the Jaime and Cersei situation and muses about what wouldn't we do to protect our children, basically saying that he prayed he would never have to find out where Catelyn was concerned.  At the time the original lie was told, he and Cat were still near if married strangers and it probably wouldn't have been a stretch to think she would choose protecting her own children over his dead sister's child if it ever came to that.

Declaring an infant Jon the rightful Targaryen heir would have made an insta-enemy of Ned's good friend Robert, who he was already not thrilled with as he had just shrugged off and rewarded the murders of the two other Targaryen children.  If he had been able to protect baby Jon it would have meant a verrry long regency, which as we've seen tends to bring its own problems, and he might have had a hard time convincing other houses to rally to defend Jon's title considering that they were just coming off a nasty civil war sparked in part by the excesses and cruelties of the previous Targaryen king.

[Macbeth]

1 hour ago, LanceM said:

If that is the case than Dany is Queen. 

I agree.  I was thinking of the scene where the Lannister army was slow to kneel to Dany.  Drogon expressed his displeasure - and didn't most of those soldiers bend their knees. 

[Haleth]

3 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Tom Hopper was completely wasted here. 

Ian McShane agrees.  "Yeah, what she said."

[Francie]

33 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Going by a real world example Charles Edward Stuart led the last uprising to restore the Stuarts to the throne of Great Britain about 50 or so years after they were exiled.  So yeah you are probably talking about 2 to 3 generations. And Dany had the support of 2 of the 7 kingdoms of Westeros and a 3rd as well had Yara been able to defeat Euron. Reducing that to just 3 women is very disingenuous.

"Reducing that to just 3 women is very disingenuous."

Not in the least.  There were 3 women, each leaders of various factions. And they, and they alone (unless the sand snakes got a vote with Ellaria) decided how to dedicate their resources.  In fact, I credit them with having the authority to dedicate certain resources. But those resources didn't make a choice -- they didn't voice any approval or support of Dany. Those who followed Yara followed her because they wanted her, and not the rightfully elected Euron, to be their leader. They didn't know anything about a Dragon Queen. The same with Ellaria. Do you think she consulted her subjects and got consensus?

Olenna had the worst problem. Not only did she not consult her houses, which again is her right and why it's not disingenuous to single her out, but she found out that they would not follow her, once they learned she had aligned herself with the Dragon Queen. 

More to the point, these three individuals made decisions not of the basis as to what was best for their kingdom, but what was in their own self-interest.  Olenna and Ellaria only wanted to use Dany to personally pay back Cersei and other Lannisters. Yara, one might argue, did think herself a better ruler than Euron. But she, too, is self-interested. She wanted the Iron Islands declared its own kingdom. 

As to your 2/3rd generation comment -- see -- it's all aribitrary. You're using examples to try to shore up why your fiction is better than someone else's. It's all a fiction, though. There is no such thing as a "right" to rule. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[AshleyN]

2 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

Ned made a deathbed promise to his sister that he would keep her son safe. The only way to do that was to keep his true identity a secret. If it were to become public it would not only immediately put his life in danger but could possibly even lead to another war. Even putting aside Robert, who almost certainly would have killed him, all of the power brokers in Westeros would either want him dead or would want to use him to advance their own status.

As for why he didn't even tell Catelyn, well, when he first brought Jon home to Winterfell they barely knew each other so he really had no idea if he could trust her. But I've always thought a major reason was that sheltering Jon and hiding his identity was an act of treason, and anyone he told would be forced into the position of committing treason along with him, which I think someone with Ned's moral code would have seen as a far greater offence than letting her believe he fathered a bastard.

Edited August 15, 2017 by AshleyN

[YaddaYadda]

1 hour ago, doram said:

I believe Ned didn't tell Catelyn because he didn't want her to share his burden of deceit/deception. And I think that Ned was tired of fighting. And it must have been an incredible blow to him to find out that the war was started for something that was not even true - the story that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna was apparently a lie. 

Requoting you because I remembered something that bled into the books. Back in season 1, when Osha takes Bran down to the crypts, he tells her about Rickard and Lyanna. He tells her that Rickard was burned alive by the Mad King. 

In the book, the same scene, he tells her that Rickard was beheaded by the Mad King. So that's one thing Ned lied about. The other lie, he just didn't correct.

[LanceM]

15 minutes ago, Francie said:

"Reducing that to just 3 women is very disingenuous."

Not in the least.  There were 3 women, each leaders of various factions. And they, and they alone (unless the sand snakes got a vote with Ellaria) how to dedicate their resources.  In fact, I credit them with having the authority to dedicate certain resources. But those resources didn't make a choice. Those who followed Yara followed her because they wanted her, and not the rightfully elected Euron, to be their leader. They didn't know anything about a Dragon Queen. The same with Ellaria. Do you think she consulted her subjects and got consensus?

Olenna had the worst problem. Not only did she not consult her houses, which again is her right and why it's not disingenuous to single her out, but she found out that they would not follow her, once they learned she had aligned herself with the Dragon Queen. 

More to the point, these three individuals made decisions not of the basis as to what was best for their kingdom, but what was in their own self-interest.  Olenna and Ellaria only wanted to use Dany to personally pay back Cersei and other Lannisters. Yara, one might argue, did think herself a better ruler than Euron. But she, too, is self-interested. She wanted the Iron Islands declared its own kingdom. 

As to your 2/3rd generation comment -- see -- it's all aribitrary. You're using examples to try to shore up why your fiction is better than someone else's. It's all a fiction, though. There is no such thing as a "right" to rule. 

They both had armies that they commanded which means yes they did consult with their subjects, those subjects being the bannerman who control those armies who were prepared to march on Kings Landing. It also makes no difference why they are supporting Daenerys only that they did. Wait, you are saying that the  Lords of the Seven Kingdoms are looking out for their own self interests first and foremost?  Alert the media.  This is what they have always done and always will continue to do.

Edited August 15, 2017 by LanceM

[screamin]

3 hours ago, Francie said:

If the showrunners were to have us believe that Cersei had taken the throne without "the shadow of a pretense of a legal claim to the throne," then we'd be seeing a Lannister lion in the opening credits. Cersei is gaining her authority -- at least this is how the lords have seen it -- based on her status as a Baratheon. 

But within the show itself we see Cersei proclaiming herself as Lannister. The idea that the showrunners are subtly signalling to us in the credit sequence and ONLY the credit sequence that Cersei is widely considered a legitimate Baratheon, while in the show itself Cersei's calling herself a Lannister and even her loyal subject who dies rather than renounce her doesn't do so on the grounds that she's the rightful queen - only that she's a proper native Westerosi while Dany's a damn furriner - I think it's just easier to believe that the showrunners made a sloppy mistake in the credits that is entirely contradicted by the show's actual content. It's especially easy to believe after an episode that had Bronn and Jaime swim a mile underwater in plate-mail, among various other howlers.

 

Quote

It was on Daenerys to show what kind of leader she wanted both: a) to be; and b) to be seen as in determining how to respond.  She went full Stannis.  And she will not be well-received from this point on. 

I think going 'full Stannis' would mean violating a taboo like Stannis did - such as burning one's own innocent daughter alive. I don't think Dany's doing anything so very different than any warring king has probably done in Westeros when she demands either their fealty or their death...the only novelty is the method of execution.

[screamin]

17 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Also, remember as book readers, many for a long time have felt that Elia and Rheagar had a loveless marriage and it was possible that her children, were not his children and we would find that out when Aegon tried to tame one of the dragons.  That he's not a Targ.

 

Elia and Rhaegar may have been no better than 'fond' of each other, but I can't remember anywhere in the books (or the show, for that matter) that there was ever a breath of scandal about Elia's behavior. IMO, in the books it's strongly hinted that fAegon is Illyrio's son by his second wife, who maybe had some Targaryen blood on the wrong side of the blanket. I can't imagine Elia would've entrusted her son to Varys, who'd been an enemy of Rhaegar for years. And if the show tries to justify Rhaegar's shitty behavior by saying 'oh, his first wife was always a slut' it would come out of nowhere and be exceedingly annoying.

[Macbeth]

14 minutes ago, screamin said:

 I don't think Dany's doing anything so very different than any warring king has probably done in Westeros when she demands either their fealty or their death...the only novelty is the method of execution.

Exactly.  Dany can't behead someone.  Dany is a dragon.  Drogon is an extension of her.  And as it was Dany who decided the punishment - it is she who must do the killing.

[WatchrTina]

Up-thread people were wondering why Gendry didn't immediately tell Jon, "Hey, I know your sister."  My recollection is that the last time Gendry & Arya were together he was being sold to the Red Priestess and she ran away (though I'm not 100% certain he knew she ran away.)  I wonder if he hesitates to bring her up because he's assuming she's dead?  He liked the Brotherhood without Banners -- he was even going to stay with them -- but then they betrayed him.  I wonder if he assumes they betrayed her too?

That's the best fan-wank I can come up with and it's pretty lame.  Gendry REALLY needed to tell Jon he'd met his sister and that they escaped Kings Landing together.  The more I think about it, the more absurd it is that he didn't bring it up immediately.  

Other people have mentioned Randall Tarly's failure to chase after Sam to retrieve the family sword.  Yeah, that's a puzzler.  The best fan-wank I can come up with is that Randall received a summons to go to Kings Landing just as they were preparing to set out and chase after Sam (and I assume  he was ordered to bring is heir as well -- just like Ned's father and older brother were summoned by the Mad King).  I have no idea if that works in the time-line but it's the only reason I can think of why Randall would have failed to pursue Sam.

[TaurusRose]

On 8/14/2017 at 4:16 PM, DakotaLavender said:

Sorry, Danaerys lost my support. She became her father, burning people alive. She demands total loyalty with a bend of the knee and is extremely power hungry and now seems like a psychotic despot. 

At the beginning of this episode, the conquered men who kneeled to her did so out of total fear, not because they believed in her. She has become an ugly tyrant using her dragons to threaten and frighten others in her own ego trip. Jon Snow also has beheaded those who were disloyal but something in her actions seemed sadistic. 

I hope she is not sitting on that Iron Throne in the end. 

Wow.  What are your thoughts on Cersei? The reason Randyl Tarly and the rest decided to back her was because she destroyed the Sept of Balor with wildfire, not only killing her "enemies," but scores of innocents.  Did you see the faces of the people in the audience chamber when she was proclaimed queen? Those were not the faces of jubilant, enthusiastic supporters, but people in fear of their lives. What about her treatment of the Septa?  Was tying her to a table so Qyburn's monstrous creation could abuse her okay with you?

Do you think Cersei's general abuse of power and authority over others is the sign of a benevolent, stable person? Cersei demanded that all the houses in the 7 kingdoms bend the knee to her; what do you think she'd do if they showed up in KL and refused? 

She wanted to strip an old woman naked and flay her alive even before she knew Olenna was responsible for Joffrey.  And now she wants Bronn punished for what exactly?

This isn't directed at you personally, but I am getting a little tired of the hysteria where Dany is concerned.  If Cersei was in possession of 3 full grown dragons do you think she would have shown half the restraint Dany has?  Dany's father may have been mad, but Dany is not.  Nor is she sadistic or a tyrant.  I'm not sure where all the Dany hate is coming from, but I'm starting to think it's because she's a petite,  blonde person of the female persuasion with dragons.

Edited August 16, 2017 by taurusrose
Correct typo

[Hanahope]

I'd like to think Jamie felt a shiver when Cersie said "don't betray me again" and woke. 

Id like to think that Arya is smarter than we think and doesn't trust Littlefinger, that she will show the paper to Sansa so the two together can work against him.

I'd like to think Jon knows what he's doing in trying to get a white walker to KL, but really so what if they bring some frozen corpse to KL? If it's not 'alive' no one will believe them still. 

I'd like to believe Sam magically grabbed all the 'right' books and scrolls.  

There seems to be a lot of empty castles to be filled with new families.

[Scaeva]

22 hours ago, Skeeter22 said:

Was Rhaegar trying to turn all of the ruling houses against his family? What a dick. 

Politically it was a mistake and resulted in all the wars and chaos that has engulfed Westeros, but I can't hate on him for loving someone other than his wife. Elia was the wife he was given by the Mad King, not the wife he chose. Their marriage was arranged and was a political union from the start.

He made the same mistake as Rob Stark.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Scaeva

[Scaeva]

22 hours ago, sweetcookieface said:

That last shot of the expedition heading out beyond the Wall felt like GoT's version of the Avengers. Loved it!

I love that as well but it felt bittersweet. 

This series being what it is, we know not all of them are coming back, and there isn't a character among that group that I currently dislike. I've even come around to liking the Hound. This is all going to end in an emotional gut-punch.

Tears are Coming. 

[Macbeth]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

This series being what it is, we know not all of them are coming back, and there isn't a character among that group that I currently dislike. I've even come around to liking the Hound. This is all going to end in an emotional gut-punch.

Tears are Coming. 

I know.  There isn't a red shirt among them.  And they are all brilliant fighters.  With the exception of Gendry (has to prove himself - which I am sure he will) - Men would follow each of them into battle.  That's a huge amount of talent for a suicide mission.

It has to be done - if they get a wight, besides showing Cersei and Dany - they need to cart that corpse down to the Citadel and wake those fools up.

[Colorful Mess]

Pity they didnt include Brienne on the team - not just for Tormund's sake. Its horrible optics for the show that a group of men go on an epic suicide mission just to convince two women that they're in the wrong. But I'm not taking it too seriously!

[crowceilidh]

I am fairly bewildered that there was no exposition of DAny's thoughts when Drogon interacted with Jon.  What was she landing there for?  Did Drogon land without orders?  How does she make them fly where she wants?  Kill precisely whom she wants?  

I could see her watching in amazement as Drogon did NOT chomp up Jon, but then what?  I trust my dog's choice of people more than Dany trusts her dragon's?  Or was that why she tried to stop Jon from going north? Rather than some philosophical comment about them being her children rather than beasts, she couldn't have made some tiny comment about Drogon's behaviour?  We couldn't have a scene of her telling Missandei about it? I want to kick the writers in the shins.  Hard.

[ihartcoffee]

23 hours ago, MadMouse said:

I can't tell what they're doing with Tyrion and Varys when it comes to Dany. If they want us to believe she's going mad they really didn't do a good job of showing, even with BBQ Tarlys or Varys speech about Aerys. She gave them a chance and they both refused, I really can't fault her for it. And then her talk with Jon about what she did cemented she's nothing like him. I really hope they don't waste any more time on that nonsense anymore.

Wow they are going full steam ahead on the Dany and Jon romance. She looked like she was ready to mount another dragon when Jon petted Drogon. And then all the looks she was giving him when he talked about going on the Wight hunt. I do like that both Tyrion and Jorah noticed it. And speaking of Jorah, seeing Dany's reaction to him was one of those great moments that will get overlooked. She loves him maybe not in the way he wishes but its she loves him alot.

Nice to see that Northern "loyalty" is showing up again. At this point in the show I'd trust a Greyjoy. But it was nice to see Littlefinger actually being smart.

Tyrion and Jaime I loved it and wished it had been longer. The conflicted Jaime we saw is the one I love from the books, the one trying to atone for his sins.

Gendry and Jon was a little too on the nose for me. I liked the callback to Ned and Bobby B's meeting but it felt like fanfiction. I love that Jon said the exact same thing to Dany that Arthur Dayne did to Ned. Lots of callbacks with dialogue this season.

Jon's magnificent seven, should be interesting dynamic between all of them. Can you imagine someone telling you that Jon, Tormund, Beric, Throros, The Hound and Gendry would be leading a party north of the wall two seasons ago? I also want to give some love to Richard Dormer, in show with tons of great performances his gets overlooked but when Beric is on screen the guy is fantastic.

Beric is one of my favorites, love his deep voice.  And yes I never thought I'd see that bunch together heading north of the wall.  

I notice they sent two people Dany cares a lot for to battle.  Hope they both live. 

[FemmyV]

4 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

 

There is no way on the old and the new gods' green earth that Catelyn would have been able to sit on that information without using it. At her most benevolent, she would probably have fought to keep him from going to the Wall - where he developed into what he is now. She probably would have tried to marry him off to a Frey girl or some other, and if that family were reluctant, let them in on the secret. At worst, she might have tried to use him as a bargaining chip to get Ned released. Ned was right to keep the information to himself.

Edited August 15, 2017 by FemmyV

[Ambrosefolly]

1 hour ago, Scaeva said:

Politically it was a mistake and resulted in all the wars and chaos that has engulfed Westeros, but I can't hate on him for loving someone other than his wife. Elia was the wife he was given by the Mad King, not the wife he chose. Their marriage was arranged and was a political union from the start.

He made the same mistake as Rob Stark.

 

 

Maybe because I come from a culture with arranged marriages, so I know they aren't the absolute worst, and if you grow up with that sort of thing happening all the time, you will adapt considering how crucial they to Westeros,  I absolutely can hate him for not doing his very privileged duty and sticking with wife and running off with someone else's. He comes across as more entitled and reckless than Robb, since Robb met someone else before meeting one of the Fray girls (or in the books, banged someone else and took her virginity before the wedding). Nor do I think he loved Lyanna, he just wanted the new, forbidden thing. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Ambrosefolly

[Paws]

5 hours ago, Francie said:

Here's my take on the entire "who should rule?" question.  There is no divine, invisible hand with all the guidelines.  There is no pure, objective law out there that explains this.  There will never be a right answer. 

Sure, oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son is a pretty easy formula to follow, and as long as there's an oldest son of an oldest son of an oldest son, and no revolutions upsetting that in between. 

But when something throws it off, there's no magic -- "Let's go to the rule book" answer. It's an open game.  It's chaos.  It's the ladder that Littlefinger talked about for those who want to grab the brass ring.   And it's an illusion, as Littlefinger also taught us.  It's a bunch of people who agree on a version of the facts and a version of the truth.  It's "a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie." 

There is no such thing as a "rightful" heir. That whole idea is a lie. So everyone looking to British royalty or theories of primogeniture -- those aren't answers. They are just another argument. A foundation upon which your fiction -- your lie -- is built. 

That's one of my issues with Daenerys. She's playing this game as though there are set guidelines -- this rule book -- and she's the winner, according to that rule book. And she expects and demands that everyone recognize her rule book. And she kills those who do not. 

"Power resides where [people] believe it resides." Any belief in a "right" will always have an underlying fiction. It will always be a construct.

Which leads me to my belief that the show will end with the ruler of Westeros being the one person who has shown the ability to lead, to speak up for what's right, to do the hard thing instead of the easy thing.

 

Lady. Lyanna. Mormont.

[LanceM]

Am I the only one who found it slightly amusing that Dany correctly used the word fewer in a sentence when she told Jon she had "fewer" enemies today than yesterday.  She must be getting lessons from Davos

[MadMouse]

1 hour ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Maybe because I come from a culture with arranged marriages, so I know they aren't the absolute worst, and if you grow up with that sort of thing happening all the time, you will adapt considering how crucial they to Westeros,  I absolutely can hate him for not doing his very privileged duty and sticking with wife and running off with someone else's. He comes across as more entitled and reckless than Robb, since Robb met someone else before meeting one of the Fray girls (or in the books, banged someone else and took her virginity before the wedding). Nor do I think he loved Lyanna, he just wanted the new, forbidden thing. 

If you buy into the notion that Lyanna was the Knight of the Laughing tree, you could easily see how he might have fallen for her.

[glowbug]

21 hours ago, Minneapple said:

So, upon rewatch I realized that Jon and Gendry have way more chemistry than Jon and Dany, plus they don't have the icky incest factor, so now I am shipping Jon/Gendry. 

Actually, they do have the incest factor although much more distantly related. Rhaegar and Robert were second cousins so Jon and Gendry are, I believe, third cousins. 

[Blonde Gator]

34 minutes ago, LanceM said:

Am I the only one who found it slightly amusing that Dany correctly used the word fewer in a sentence when she told Jon she had "fewer" enemies today than yesterday.  She must be getting lessons from Davos

I noticed as well, and gave a wave to Stannis for proper grammar on another GOT board earlier today.

[stillshimpy]

7 hours ago, Francie said:

About the only thing more annoying would be if she were to walk around, showing everybody her electoral map.

Quoted because I like it so much, I'm taking it out to lunch tomorrow.  Every time they show Cersei stalking around, in her unnaturally distracting, aggressively blond hair on a map, it does feel like they are echoing a vibe in terms of set dressing.   It's actually a really smart choice in terms of directions and set choices, we see a lot of maps as they relate to power structures in our real world anyway.  It's kind of a neat visual trick to evoke emotional investment.  I think.  

8 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Didn't Sam even tell them all at the Family Tarly Awkward Xenophobic Dinner that he was going to the Citadel to become a maester?  I could swear that he did. So Daddy Tarly knew exactly where he was headed and where he would be.  I've been waiting ever since Sam got there for some frazzled novice to interrupt his bedpan scrubbing to tell him an angry older man was outside demanding his sword back from his pasty wildling loving son.  But now Tarly Sr. is dragon ash and nary a peep or angry visit about the sword and Sam's moved on to stealing random books.  So the Family Tarly was merely a plot device with no payoff.

1

May the universe bless you for this turn of phrase, particularly when married to the bedpan montage without pause and fittingly so.   Well done, I would have really, really appreciated that novice, by the way.  Anything to interrupt the tidy bowl tidal wave.  

I like that the Night's Watch's Oath has seemingly turned into an "Eh, you know, fuck it.  Who can even tell who's King of what, am I right?  Right then, I'm off.   I may pop back later for a crucial battle or two, but after that we'll all just agree that I washed out on this Brother for Life business because we're scrapping the whole idea of the Monastery Prison Because What Could Go Wrong With That? Because in retrospect, it was a lot.  A lot went wrong.  So...oath...smoath...father some sons, or daughters...preferably with someone other than your son, or daughter, it turns out it is necessary to state..."  

People just wandering in and out, chain of command dependent on main characters being present or not.   It's sort of amusingly not being made into much of a thing.  "Oh, okay.  Well, looks like people are just deciding 'yup, my watch has ended, bye!' and even though the whole series opened with someone being killed for doing what people seem to be doing on a whim...makes sense...actually."  
 

I think it more or less does, they can't have an army of unwilling conscripts and convicts, partly because all of those guys got killed already, partly because when the going got awful, willingness to actually be there proved pretty key.   It's funny how it hasn't really even gotten line-dropped that the Oath is more "Hey, if we give a holler, will you show?  You will?  Good enough, send some of our previously mortal enemies to help man the joint while you're gone, that'll be fine.  That's how bad this shit is about to get" but it makes sense to me on a story level.   

It's just caused so few qualms in anyone.  Jon really transitioned from "I'm a Brother of the Night's Watch" to "I'm a King and I care about my people" for understandable reasons ('my brothers murdered me' qualifies for me) but it's been a low key amusing note for me this season.  

Castle Black:  It's stopped being a place that feels like it has an identity and instead is like a travel plaza on I70.  Characters are there briefly, on their way to a place with its own plot this season.  

[Shimmergloom]

10 hours ago, sacrebleu said:

Assuming Cersei married Robert a little older than was custom (due to the war)-- marriage @ 18/19-- lost Robert's kid, then had Joffrey-- I would put Cersei/Jamie at around 38/39. I don't recall a reference to age-- but I could be wrong.

Joffery mocks Jamie for being 40 in an earlier season.  So Jamie/Cersei are 40+ judging by that alone.

 

10 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

Joffrey called Jaime "a 40-year-old knight" waaay back at the beginning of season 4.

 

Right on cue, 3 posts later. I knew it as soon as I hit reply.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Shimmergloom

[MrsR]

I have this idea that the Tarlys never noticed that Heartsbane was missing until the servant girl went to dust it one day.

 

Mrs Tarly: "Dickon, do you have Heartsbane? Did you take it down to show friends and leave it at the tavern again?"

Edited August 15, 2017 by MrsR

[sumiregusa]

Saw this being discussed a lot so I figured I'd add my two cents:

If Dany is being self-entitled and "mad queen" by going to all lengths for the Iron Throne when she has no apparent right to it, why did Robert Baratheon spy on her and try to have her hunted down and killed? 

The fact is that she was seen as a threat because she is one. Her claim is legitimate and stronger than even his was. You don't have to like Dany or any of the Targaryens for that matter to know how succession is supposed to work.

Edited August 15, 2017 by sumiregusa

[Hecate7]

On 8/13/2017 at 9:48 PM, SimoneS said:

I keep reading that Jon is the heir. I don't get where that comes from. In no European monarchy succession (which this story is based on) can the king's nephew claim succession right to the throne over any of his children, male or female. 

He's not the king's nephew. He's the Mad King's grandson. Rhaegar, Viserys, and Danaerys were the Mad King's three children. Jon is the legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. And his father may have already been king when he was born.

[sumiregusa]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Wow.  What are your thoughts on Cersei? The reason Randyl Tarly and the rest decided to back her was because she destroyed the Sept of Balor with wildfire, not only killing her "enemies," but scores of innocents.  Did you see the faces of the people in the audience chamber when she was proclaimed queen? Those were not the faces of jubilant, enthusiastic supporters, but people in fear of their lives. What about her treatment of the Septa?  Was tying her to a table so Qyburn's monstrous creation could abuse her okay with you?

Do you think Cersei's general abuse of power and authority over others is the sign of a benevolent, stable person? Cersei demanded that all the houses in the 7 kingdoms bend the knee to her; what do you think she'd do if they showed up in KL and refused? 

She wanted to strip an old woman naked and flay her alive even before she knew Olenna was responsible for Joffrey.  And now she wants Bronn punished for what exactly?

This isn't directed at you personally, but I am getting a little tired of the hysteria where Dany is concerned.  If Cersei was in possession of 3 full grown dragons do you think she would have shown half the restraint Dany has?  Dany's father may have been mad, but Dany is not.  Nor is she sadistic or a tyrant.  I'm not sure where all the Dany hate is coming from, but I'm starting to think it's because she's a petite,  blonde person of the female persuasion with dragons.

^^This. It may have less to do with her gender or stature and more that some people just don't want to like the character, but the point stands.

Edited August 15, 2017 by sumiregusa

[LoveLeigh]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Wow.  What are your thoughts on Cersei? The reason Randyl Tarly and the rest decided to back her was because she destroyed the Sept of Balor with wildfire, not only killing her "enemies," but scores of innocents.  Did you see the faces of the people in the audience chamber when she was proclaimed queen? Those were not the faces of jubilant, enthusiastic supporters, but people in fear of their lives. What about her treatment of the Septa?  Was tying her to a table so Qyburn's monstrous creation could abuse her okay with you?

Do you think Cersei's general abuse of power and authority over others is the sign of a benevolent, stable person? Cersei demanded that all the houses in the 7 kingdoms bend the knee to her; what do you think she'd do if they showed up in KL and refused? 

She wanted to strip an old woman naked and flay her alive even before she knew Olenna was responsible for Joffrey.  And now she wants Bronn punished for what exactly?

This isn't directed at you personally, but I am getting a little tired of the hysteria where Dany is concerned.  If Cersei was in possession of 3 full grown dragons do you think she would have shown half the restraint Dany has?  Dany's father may have been mad, but Dany is not.  Nor is she sadistic or a tyrant.  I'm not sure where all the Dany hate is coming from, but I'm starting to think it's because she's a petite,  blonde person of the female persuasion with dragons.

I do not engage in debates regarding episodes because we all have different opinions and with regard to opinions there is no right or wrong.

Cersei is a horrible monster. However, that does not justify in my opinion, Daenerys also becoming a monster and demanding  everyone "bend the knee" regardless of their allegiances. They did it out of fear. And that type of loyalty is fake and within those legions there are traitors whose devotions are elsewhere and they cannot be trusted. 

I think that because one ruler is an unstable maniac, it does not justify another ruler morphing into an equal lunatic. And that applies to my political mindset today. 

Daenerys blonde hair and petite stature have nothing to do with my opinion of her actions. I actually believe that the writing is flawed and what does that have to do with her appearance? 

[tennisgurl]

General episode thoughts:

Randall Tarley was such a dick, I cant even be that mad at his nasty burning death, but I'm really sad that Dickon died. He seemed like a really decent person, whos biggest flaw seemed to be trying to please a father who only values war and being a warrior, and it led to him having a horrible, easily avoidable death. I don't think Sam will be THAT sad about his fathers death, but I think he will be sad to hear about his brothers death. While they didn't seem close, they did seem to get along alright, and Dickon was a nice guy. Plus, Tom Hopper is so very attractive.

On the one hand, Dany burning people alive who don't surrender to her is quite nasty, and I'm generally not too into Dany and her "I'm the Queen because my dragons say so" attitude lately. On the other hand, being tough on people who don't follow you or break rules is pretty standard for all Westerosi rulers and nobles, even the good guys. Ned was first introduced bringing his very young son to see Ned beheading a Nights Watch deserter who was clearly terrified and running for his life. That's just how things are there. So, is Dany becoming evil, or is she just doing what everyone does? Either way, Cersei is still the Worst, so I'm Team Dany over Team Cersei any day of the week. At least Dany is basically reasonable and is capable of empathy. Cersei seems incapable of either lately.

Gendry chuckling at Tormund made Tormund cracking about the two queens (the one with dragons, and the one fucking her brother) even funnier to me. Then Jon laughed at Tormund asking about Brienne. Its really too bad Jon isn't very smiley, he has a nice smile. Kit really lights up.

Jon saying that the dragons are "Gorgeous Beasts" sounded so much like Ned.

Robert would be thrilled to know that one of his sons (even a bastard) still has some loyalty to him, is on his way to becoming BFFs with Neds own (alleged) bastard, and rocks his trademark war hammer. I'm now pretty sure that, if Gendry survives, he will become legitimized as an official Baratheon to keep the line going. Then Arya will jokingly curtsy to him and say "Lord Baratheon" or something and then they hug. A lot. I also would like for Jon and Gendry to talk about Arya, which would be a pretty big topic, right?

You know, Qyburn might be Westeros's resident mad scientist and generally a crazed sadist, but he wasn't wrong about the head maesters. What a bunch of fuddie duddies.

The shot of the whole gang running out to bag them a WW was super cool, and I love getting all these characters together to fight ice zombies and their evil masters, BUT it makes me nervous. I'm sure they wont all be coming back, and I like all those characters, and I don't want any of them to die! Also, they're a solid Dream Team, and losing any of them with suck for Team Living.

Edited August 15, 2017 by tennisgurl

[Constantinople]

53 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Cersei is a horrible monster. However, that does not justify in my opinion, Daenerys also becoming a monster and demanding  everyone "bend the knee" regardless of their allegiances. They did it out of fear. And that type of loyalty is fake and within those legions there are traitors whose devotions are elsewhere and they cannot be trusted

 

Then what is Daenerys supposed to do?

[Shimmergloom]

8 hours ago, Andromeda said:

I thought he had the white Targ hair, which I don't think he'd get from Dornish Elia.

Doesn't mean it's from Rhaegar though.  It seemed suspicious that she has a child that close to the time that Jon is born.  It would mean Elia was pregnant soon after or at the time that Rhaegar runs off with Lyanna.

Aegon is said to have been born in 282 AC.  The tourney at harrenhal was in 281 AC.  The battle of the trident was in 283 AC(which should also be the year that Jon was born).  So we either assume that Rhaegar was still having sex with Elia while he was planning to run off with Lyanna, or that she had the baby with someone else.  If he was with Elia after he falls for Lyanna then he's really no different than Robert, who Lyanna disliked because she knew he would not be faithful.

It's possible that Rhaegar is a jerk and Lyanna was dumb to stay run away with him after he had proven to still be with Elia, but that sort of defeats the narrative.  There appears to be more to the story, that we may or may not ever know.

[WearyTraveler]

On 8/14/2017 at 5:32 PM, Chris24601 said:

I could be wrong, but I don't recall any wights Jon hit at Hardhome getting back up.

The ones that tried to kill Old Mormont at the Wall, were slowed by Jon's cuts with Longclaw, which is made of Valyrian steel, but they kept coming.  Only the fire that broke out in the room when a candle touched the curtains stopped them.

Edited August 17, 2017 by WearyTraveler

[Oscirus]

I think most of us including myself misunderstood the motives of both Varys and Tyrion.

Tyrion's all about the long game he not only wants to get her to the throne but he wants to keep her there and he realizes that flaunting one's dragons and killing off families is a bad way to do so. Varys is more weary, likely sick of serving so many shitty kings, he wants to serve one that's not a tyrant or otherwise incompetent  Which is why he desperately wants Tyrion to be the type of hand that he knows that Tyrion is capable of being since he's seen it with his own two eyes.

As to why people hold up Dany to higher standards then everybody? Is it misogyny? No it's the standards that Dany herself set. How you going to break the wheel when you're doing the exact same thing your predecessors were doing except with dragons?  While the actions might've been pleasing to the viewer, her actions on the battlefield were the actions of a tyrant trying to force loyalty from people as opposed to one trying to inspire loyalty. If she wanted to rule by fear, she should've just been the queen of ash and been done with it. As of right now, she's taking half measures and those never end well.

[Helena Dax]

6 hours ago, Oscirus said:

 

As to why people hold up Dany to higher standards then everybody? Is it misogyny? No it's the standards that Dany herself set. How you going to break the wheel when you're doing the exact same thing your predecessors were doing except with dragons? 

Imo, the problem is that you can't win a war without killing people. Dany wants to be different and I think she'll be, given the chance, but right now, she's at war. And when you defeat your enemies, you can only give them two choices: surrender  or die. She can't offer more choices right now. I think "breaking the wheel" is something she wants to do after the war. She can build schools for everyone, universities, hospitals...  She can change laws. As a queen, she can create a better world. But she isn't Christ or Buddha. Not even a High Sparrow. She isn't there to teach people about pacifism and the way we can all be friends.  She's indeed a conqueror and acting like one. I think she did what she had to do and I'm just sorry the fact that it was the Tarlys will surely create some problems later with Jon and Sam.

And maybe, who knows, many of the soldiers who bent the knee out of fear will soon find out that she's a better person than Cersei and will be proud of calling Dany their queen. 

Edited August 15, 2017 by Helena Dax
grammar

[Francie]

6 hours ago, sumiregusa said:

Saw this being discussed a lot so I figured I'd add my two cents:

If Dany is being self-entitled and "mad queen" by going to all lengths for the Iron Throne when she has no apparent right to it, why did Robert Baratheon spy on her and try to have her hunted down and killed? 

The fact is that she was seen as a threat because she is one. Her claim is legitimate and stronger than even his was. You don't have to like Dany or any of the Targaryens for that matter to know how succession is supposed to work.

Robert Baratheon had her hunted down and nearly killed when she married a Dothraki warlord, and a cogzinant threat to Westeros had developed in the form of a Dothraki horde of soldiers hitting Westeros. 

Robert and Cersei didn't have a conversation about Dany's "divine right" to rule Westeros. They had a conversation about what carnage could be done should that horde ever hit Westeros. 

Therefore, Robert's reaction had nothing to do with her "claim," but her potential to cause damage, and challenge Robert's rule by violence. 

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

 

Then what is Daenerys supposed to do?

Varys: Not burn him alive, alongside his son. 

[Uncle JUICE]

17 hours ago, Stella said:

Who committed treason? Not the Tarleys. 

Dany is an invader at this point in the story and they were her POW's. She burned them alive.

The Tarlys committed treason against House Tyrell according to their vow as bannermen. At least as far as I understand it. 

 

17 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Agreed. It was utter bullshit that Jaime and Bronn were able to escape. This might have been somewhat more believable if they had both jumped into a swift-moving river that carried them quickly downstream; instead, we see them emerge from a lake that is as still as glass. And about a mile or more from the battlefield. Like suddenly they're Aqua Men.

There's just no realistic explanation for it. It's all plot-driven and it doesn't make any sense. The writers simply wanted to send Jaime back to Cersei so he could tell her all about the battle. He and Bronn should have been captured and/or killed, period, and the show didn't want that. Which is why they shouldn't have ended the previous episode the way they did. They should have allowed Bronn and Jaime to slip away unnoticed if they didn't want them captured or killed. They sacrificed credibility (not to mention integrity) for a cheap cliff-hanger fake-out.

At any rate, I'm just glad Drogon is OK, because that's really the only thing I was worried about. 

Although I have to say, it's a wonder Rhaegal and Viserion aren't terribly jealous of him. "Mom likes you best! She never takes us anywhere!"

Obviously agree! I didn't even take it to task as well as you did: a cheap cliffhanger ending that didn't even pay off in any way that would have been surprising. We knew Jaime wasn't going to die offscreen, so why not twist the plot around a little more. With Jaime in custody, Dany;s leverage for a face to face with Cersei is maximized, and Cersei would have to offer terms for cessation of hostilities. 

[Francie]

11 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Wow.  What are your thoughts on Cersei? The reason Randyl Tarly and the rest decided to back her was because she destroyed the Sept of Balor with wildfire, not only killing her "enemies," but scores of innocents.  Did you see the faces of the people in the audience chamber when she was proclaimed queen? Those were not the faces of jubilant, enthusiastic supporters, but people in fear of their lives. What about her treatment of the Septa?  Was tying her to a table so Qyburn's monstrous creation could abuse her okay with you?

Do you think Cersei's general abuse of power and authority over others is the sign of a benevolent, stable person? Cersei demanded that all the houses in the 7 kingdoms bend the knee to her; what do you think she'd do if they showed up in KL and refused? 

She wanted to strip an old woman naked and flay her alive even before she knew Olenna was responsible for Joffrey.  And now she wants Bronn punished for what exactly?

This isn't directed at you personally, but I am getting a little tired of the hysteria where Dany is concerned.  If Cersei was in possession of 3 full grown dragons do you think she would have shown half the restraint Dany has?  Dany's father may have been mad, but Dany is not.  Nor is she sadistic or a tyrant.  I'm not sure where all the Dany hate is coming from, but I'm starting to think it's because she's a petite,  blonde person of the female persuasion with dragons.

I have yet to see a single viewer of this show say, "You know who I think would make a great, benevolent leader? Cersei." So the attack that Dany's getting grief for her tactics but Cersei isn't is a straw man argument. 

Of course Cersei would use dragons, should they be at her disposal.  I have no idea why all these men think all they need to do is show Cersei a wight, and she'll suddenly be all, "Yep, let's put aside our differences and fight this together." Of course she won't. She'll turn to Qyborn and ask him how he can weaponize them for her. 

Cersei and Dany are both monsters -- it's just that Dany paints herself as a savior (Ms. I want to break chains; I want to break wheels ... she's a breaker all right, and not a fixer) -- and Cersei doesn't give two cents at this point (and we can break into the argument about how Cersei became to be a monster, but I believe that best taken to the Cersei thread).  

The parallels this season between the two, Cersei and Dany, have been uncanny. Both tell their closest advisors not to betray them. Both take care of their enemies with fire. Both have men near them, trying to temper their actions. Both wear black.  Heck, both have/had three beloved "children." With Cersei, we see what she's like when she's lost them. Is that a sign that Dany will lose hers as well?

Meanwhile, the parallels between Jon and Jaime have been striking to me, as well. Both chose a lesser form of painful execution for the condemned, Jon with Mance and Jaime with Olenna.  When Jaime fell face up in the water, I saw not only the parallel with Bran but with Jon lying in the snow when he was killed.  Both have charged forward where angels would have feared to tread, with Jon charging Ramsey's forces and Jaime charging a dragon.  And both appear to have some sort of romantic entanglement with these two monsters. 

And the thing I'm tired of? This retreat to "it must be gender-hate" argument. I know gender equality. I work in a field that involves litigation of gender equality issues. Gender equality is a friend of mine. And I call a villain a villain when I see one, a victim a victim, and a hero a hero. And Dany has been crossing the line, this season, from hero to villain. It's that simple.  I've championed a petite blond heroine with supernatural friends. Her name was Buffy. And she was a vampire slayer.  And Daenerys Targaryen, you are no Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 

[TaurusRose]

6 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

I do not engage in debates regarding episodes because we all have different opinions and with regard to opinions there is no right or wrong.

Cersei is a horrible monster. However, that does not justify in my opinion, Daenerys also becoming a monster and demanding  everyone "bend the knee" regardless of their allegiances. They did it out of fear. And that type of loyalty is fake and within those legions there are traitors whose devotions are elsewhere and they cannot be trusted. 

I think that because one ruler is an unstable maniac, it does not justify another ruler morphing into an equal lunatic. And that applies to my political mindset today. 

Daenerys blonde hair and petite stature have nothing to do with my opinion of her actions. I actually believe that the writing is flawed and what does that have to do with her appearance? 

I don't think Dany is becoming a monster. She is taking back what she perceives to be her birthright by force, same as every other person who has held the IT. Dany conquered the Lannister army on the field of battle and needed them to stop hostilities.  What do you think she should have done?  This is Westeros, and if you lose, you submit to the conqueror or suffer the consequences. The conqueror settles into governing once s/he has stifled opposition. We have no idea what type of leader Dany will prove to be at this point. But I'm going to go out on a limb and say she will be better than Cersei.  As for what her looks have to do with it, I was merely searching for a reason for the intense negativity towards the character.  I think labels like "lunatic" or "monster" are unjustified, especially when compared with others playing the game.

[YaddaYadda]

41 minutes ago, Francie said:

Varys: Not burn him alive, alongside his son. 

Varys needs a tall glass of STFU. The way they shredded his book arc and make Varys into this benevolent character is so jarring. His scene with Tyrion took me out of the episode completely. 

[Tikichick]

14 hours ago, Francie said:

1.  That point isn't only relevant to mine, it *is* my point. She may seem like she's bring singled out because she's the one running around declaring an unalienable right to be on the throne. Going on about in perpetuity, and demanding that every man, woman, child, plant, tree, and bush bend the knee and accept her reality. If Viserys  showed up claiming the same thing, I would find him just as ridiculous. 

Cersei gathered lords from one kingdom and she made her best pitch as up why they should recognize her. No "bend the knee or die" demands. And now, even with blowing up the sept, Dany has a worse PR problem then she does. 

2. The implication that Cersei had children killed. 

3. You're totally right. She did a bang up job. The riot. The corruption. The unrest. The violence. You should know my opinion of Dany is based on how poorly she did as a "leader" in Essos, and her determination to bring that single-mindedness and dogmatism to Westeros. 

Does anyone believe the lords Cersei gathered did not understand that if they did not bend the knee Cersei would have simply said, okie dokes, no hard feelings, just thought I'd ask, hope you enjoy the rest of your visit to KL?

Cersei cannot run around and make claims to the throne by right like Dany is doing, she has no toehold like Dany does.  Cersei presented an "option" to the lords in the vein of Vito Corleone, an offer they couldn't refuse.  Many of those acceding to Cersei's rule are doing so because they see no other way.  In many way it's the same thing Dany is doing, simply dressed in different clothes.  Notably with Dany in Westeros and Cersei on the IT the clothes are gaining similarities.

[Francie]

1 hour ago, Helena Dax said:

And when you defeat your enemies, you can only give them two choices: surrender  or die. She can't offer more choices right now.

First, as to Tarly and his son, they had surrendered. They were in her custody. And she summarily executed them for not recognizing her as their queen.  

Second, taking this back to a grander scheme, why is she invading and creating enemies in the first place? She is the one putting herself in the position of creating only two options. It's like Hitler invading Poland and saying he can't offer more choices that surrender or die. 

The cournterargument, I am aware, is that this is Dany's "birthright," so of course she has a right to invade. I challenged that notion on two fronts. I'll refer to my prior posts in this thread as what it means to have a "birthright" (short answer -- it means nothing).  Second, this is your country. And let's say, for argument's sake, you know you're the rightful ruler. What's the best way to go about regaining control? Attacking with foreign armies? Or some other strategy like gaining the acceptance through diplomacy. 

If she had spent her resources on gaining popularity in the country beforehand, and come in as a caretaker and not a conqueror, she would have been better well-received and likely more successful. 

[TaurusRose]

34 minutes ago, Francie said:

I have yet to see a single viewer of this show say, "You know who I think would make a great, benevolent leader? Cersei." So the attack that Dany's getting grief for her tactics but Cersei isn't is a straw man argument. 

And the thing I'm tired of? This retreat to "it must be gender-hate" argument. I know gender equality. I work in a field that involves litigation of gender equality issues. Gender equality is a friend of mine. And I call a villain a villain when I see one, a victim a victim, and a hero a hero. And Dany has been crossing the line, this season, from hero to villain. It's that simple.  I've championed a petite blond heroine with supernatural friends. Her name was Buffy. And she was a vampire slayer.  And Daenerys Targaryen, you are no Buffy the Vampire Slayer. 

Cersei isn't getting near the grief she should be getting, so move along with the straw man argument.  I snipped a lot of your post because I'm not making the connections you are and I disagree with a lot of what you said, so I'll just leave it at that. And lastly, Buffy had her fair share of loser moments so IMO her heroine tiara is a bit tarnished.

[Chris24601]

6 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Then what is Daenerys supposed to do?

Option 1) Get her ass and her armies north to defend the Realms of Men from a great and terrible danger, thus earning the love and loyalty of the common people for saving them.

Option 2) Stay in Meereen and continue to rule through the necessarily generational changes that will be needed there so that lasting freedom can be brought to the region.

That Daenerys herself refused to send her troops north this episode because she knew Cersei would just send in troops to fill the vacuum proves she understands the principle behind option two. I'm expecting a ship any day now to turn up with a battered Daario informing Dany and company that the Bay of Dragons is again Slaver's Bay, because once she pulled out all the Dothraki and dragons (the two main things that let her beat the Masters last time) AND the Unsullied everything went to crap when the Masters bought the Second Sons' loyalty right out from under him (seriously, of all the forces she could leave behind to keep the peace she left a couple thousand mercenaries?) and now its right back to the awful mess it was before.

Dany's problem in Westeros is that there is no great social injustice she can easily solve through violence to earn their love and devotion. The people of Westeros don't live in chains. The non-nobles of Westeros aren't any more enslaved than they would be in Dany's new world.

As Ser Jorah so long ago put it... “The common people pray for rain, healthy children, and a summer that never ends. It is no matter to them if the high lords play their game of thrones, so long as they are left in peace. They never are.”

What the people of Westeros needed is PEACE enough to gather their grains and stores for the coming winter. Instead Dany delivered them a new front to a years long war and destructive new weapons that burned 1000+ tons of food to ash in a single afternoon.

Daenerys the Despot, Destroyer of Grain, Burner of Prisoners, Queen of the Dothraki Hordes and Mother of Monsters. Those are the titles the people of Westeros will use for her; not the pretentious ones she's given to herself.

Edited August 15, 2017 by Chris24601

[Growsonwalls]

In the books they specifically describe Catelyn as being borderline abusive to Jon growing up. Jon had the affection of Ned, Arya, Robb, etc. but I don't see Ned watching the shunning and anger and abuse from Catelyn and still holding that secret. I know this is to advance the storyline but Ned was kindhearted to a fault. Could he have watched little Jon being treated so poorly by Catelyn and said nothing?

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, crowceilidh said:

I am fairly bewildered that there was no exposition of DAny's thoughts when Drogon interacted with Jon.  What was she landing there for?  Did Drogon land without orders?  How does she make them fly where she wants?  Kill precisely whom she wants?  

I could see her watching in amazement as Drogon did NOT chomp up Jon, but then what?  I trust my dog's choice of people more than Dany trusts her dragon's?  Or was that why she tried to stop Jon from going north? Rather than some philosophical comment about them being her children rather than beasts, she couldn't have made some tiny comment about Drogon's behaviour?  We couldn't have a scene of her telling Missandei about it? I want to kick the writers in the shins.  Hard.

This is one of the reasons I did not find this episode as strong as it should have been.  It's not like things didn't happen, major things.  I feel the compression of the stories while I'm watching and notice myself wondering things I'm fairly sure the writers didn't intend me to notice or focus on the absence of or curiosity about other things weren't said and were not hanging in the air for dramatic effect and instead felt like I might find them swept under the rug.