S07.E05: Eastwatch

[Francie]

17 minutes ago, nodorothyparker said:

Didn't Sam even tell them all at the Family Tarly Awkward Xenophobic Dinner that he was going to the Citadel to become a maester?  I could swear that he did. So he knew exactly where he was headed and where he would be.  I've been waiting ever since Sam got there for some frazzled novice to interrupt his bedpan scrubbing to tell him an angry older man was outside demanding his sword back from pasty wildling loving son.  But now Tarly Sr. is dragon ash and nary a peep or angry visit about the sword and Sam's moved on to stealing random books.  So the Family Tarly was merely a plot device with no payoff.

The payoff will happen when Jon and Sam learn that Dany decided to BBQ them. Deliberately telling the audience that that information was being withheld at this time is the tip off to that. 

Sam is the also the most likely author of a Song and Ice and Fire when all is said and done. Not sure how much of a "good edit" the woman who killed his brother is going to get. I doubt he'll be as understanding of the idea as some here have indicated.  

[screamin]

1 hour ago, Francie said:

I absolutely agree that Tarly was swayed by xenophobia. 

I do disagree that Cersei blew up the sept so that she could sit on the iron throne. She meant for Tommen to sit in that seat. Granted, she knew she would wield a great deal of power, given his tractability. But an important distinction.  She didn't mean to take that throne for herself with that maneuver. 

But Tarly turned his coat of fealty to Cersei after Tommen was dead. He swore fealty to a woman who (unlike Tommen) had not even the shadow of a pretense of legal claim to the throne that she'd taken by dishonorable means. He did it because 'at least she was born here,' no more.

[mac123x]

7 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I'd hoped they'd grown past their childhood spats, after all they've been through, and with so much to bind them to each other as two of the last remaining family members.

I can see this playing out a couple of ways:

Scenario 1.  Arya confronts Sansa with the scroll, blames her for getting Ned killed, angry exchange of words until someone (Bran maybe) sorts it out for them.

Scenario 2.  Arya shows the scroll to Sansa and says something like "Littlefinger planted this so I'd find it and pull a Scenario 1 on you.  Kind of dumb of him - if I thought he was getting rid of this evidence on your orders, why didn't he just burn it instead of hiding it for me to find?  I think he's messing with us and I'd like to get stabby.  Okay with that?" Sansa nods.

 

Pretty sure the writers will go with Scenario 1, because it's trite and annoying.

[screamin]

18 minutes ago, YaddaYadda said:

At the risk of getting jumped on (which is fine, because opinions and all), I never understood why the Targaryens who had dwindled so much, saw Rhaella have 7 miscarriages/stillbirths/babies that didn't live all that long would take their chances on someone who was known as being frail. It's such a crapshoot. In a society that values healthy women with good hips (see Catelyn's assessment of both Jeyne Westerling and Roslin Frey), it's just so odd. Was Aerys that worried about Dorne, or were there was no one old enough to marry Rhaegar? If Aerys had accepted Cersei, they would still have needed to wait until she was sixteen before she married him. 

 

Aerys wasn't thinking of Rhaegar's benefit when he married him to Elia. He was apparently suspicious of Rhaegar since he was a teenager, believing he was plotting to usurp him. When given the chance to piss off Tywin at the same time, matching up his son with Elia looked like a brilliant move to such a nut-job.

Besides, in medieval times men went through wives like Kleenex, many of them dying in childbirth. If Elia dies, marry another.

[Francie]

12 minutes ago, screamin said:

But Tarly turned his coat of fealty to Cersei after Tommen was dead. He swore fealty to a woman who (unlike Tommen) had not even the shadow of a pretense of legal claim to the throne that she'd taken by dishonorable means. He did it because 'at least she was born here,' no more.

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree because the showrunners are not being forthcoming. 

If the showrunners were to have us believe that Cersei had taken the throne without "the shadow of a pretense of a legal claim to the throne," then we'd be seeing a Lannister lion in the opening credits. Cersei is gaining her authority -- at least this is how the lords have seen it -- based on her status as a Baratheon. We can all have issues that she is only a Baratheon by marriage, but that appears to be what the lords are conceding. Cersei is, arguably to them, the rightful heir to Tommen. 

The showrunners have not once said that Cersei has taken the throne through conquest. Indeed, the official story is that it was an accident. 

So, I am starting from a the premise that, at least to the lords of three kingdoms, they do recognize Cersei as the legitimate ruler, through blood and not might.  And Olenna, as a "governor," went and aligned herself with a foreign leader.  Olenna's former minor lords are now caught in the middle.  Tarly was saying that he chose which side, and he was going to hold true to that.  It was on Daenerys to show what kind of leader she wanted both: a) to be; and b) to be seen as in determining how to respond.  She went full Stannis.  And she will not be well-received from this point on. 

These were her prisoners. There is legitimately an open question as to who should rule Westeros. And instead of recognizing that, Dany is mandating that her captives recognize that she is their "true" leader. That's pretty tyrannical. 

About the only thing more annoying would be if she were to walk around, showing everybody her electoral map.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[GrailKing]

35 minutes ago, crowceilidh said:

AND that series is finished, so you don't have to worry about dying before the thing ends).

Somewhere in the world people are dying before the beginning or the end of something.

I worry ( not too seriously ) GRRM or I may bite it before the end of either mediums conclusion.

[DarkRaichu]

19 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

I'd hoped they'd grown past their childhood spats, after all they've been through, and with so much to bind them to each other as two of the last remaining family members.

Lol I am going with the double bluff of Sansa&Arya knew LF was setting up the trap and  played along to figure out what LF ultimate plan was.  That sounded more like what showrunners would do ito solve this scenario

[FnkyChkn34]

27 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

Sorry, Danaerys lost my support. She became her father, burning people alive. She demands total loyalty with a bend of the knee and is extremely power hungry and now seems like a psychotic despot. 

At the beginning of this episode, the conquered men who kneeled to her did so out of total fear, not because they believed in her. She has become an ugly tyrant using her dragons to threaten and frighten others in her own ego trip. Jon Snow also has beheaded those who were disloyal but something in her actions seemed sadistic. 

I hope she is not sitting on that Iron Throne in the end. 

The difference is that Jon Snow was following the "laws" of the Night's Watch.  I put it in quotes because I don't think they really have laws as we know them, but they do try to have order, and consequences for actions.  I don't think he beheaded anyone as King in the North, right?  Robb did, but has Jon?  He treated the Alyce Karstark and the other boy (his name is escaping me) with compassion.

[Blonde Gator]

31 minutes ago, Paradigm14 said:

You know,I hope there's a good reason Elia Martell went along with this. I can't think of what it might be. 
As far as legitimacy of the annulment, if the Maesters do it, it's kind of a given. There are no other actual active churches in Westeros, so no one to oppose it.

I just re-watched the episode.

It wasn't a Maester's diary/list of stuff book that Gilly was reading.  It was written by a High Septon (head of the Faith of the Seven).  Which carries even MORE weight than that of a Maester, who is a recorder of history, rather than a maker of history.  That a High Septon annulled Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, and performed a secret second wedding ceremony in Dorne makes the evidence golden.

[gbbarb]

4 hours ago, tangerine95 said:

The episode was a slower and less intense than last week but I liked it.

Dany didn't seem mad at all to me,I totally understood her decision.She gave them a chance and for some reason the Tarly's were dumb enough not to accept.I mean he knows Cersei is crazy and blew up a bunch of her people to save herself from the mess she made,said so himself but to him that's better than Dany because she grew up in Westeros.

Tyrion is kinda a hypocrite imo.He's walking all sad among the Lannister soldiers like he doesn't know what war is and what it looks like when he literally lead a battle against Stannis and fought in one for the Lannisters against Robb.The idea that Dany shouldn't use her dragons as weapons or that using them to execute people instead of a sword is somehow worse doesn't make sense to me tbh.

Loved the scene when Jon meets Drogon.It was so well done and beautifully shot.Drogon looks amazing and Kit Harington's acting was great too.

Not a fan of Jorah but I'm kinda glad he's back so that Dany has someone less conflicted than Tyrion to advise her.It was funny tho how they kept framing the scenes with Jorah,Dany and Jon like it was a love triangle when its really not lol

I wish Jon had more of a reaction to finding out Arya and Bran are alive,there wasn't much time I guess but they could have made it more of a moment.Also weird that Gendry didn't mention Arya.I would think surviving with his sister for like a year would be the first thing he would say to Jon to connect with him instead of talking about a father he never knew.I found Gendry's pride about being Robert's kid weird and ooc tbh.

Jaime and Cersei continue to be annoying.Again Jaime had a look that seems like he sees what Cersei is becoming but I'm guessing like usual he'll ignore it and push it aside.

I could see both Arya and Sansa's point.Sansa can't just kill whoever complains about Jon but I get why Arya can't stand for it.According to the leaked outlines Sansa does think she should be queen and Arya did read her right but that doesn't make sense to me when Sansa's main goal has been to just come home and be with her family.I find it hard to believe she would resent her brother because she wants to be queen herself.

The site that leaked hates Sansa so any action she takes is automatically assumed to be for the worst reason and/or outcome.  Take it with a grain of salt.   Everything we have been shown indicates Sansa doesn't care if she Queen, she wants to be safe.  The power mad perception comes from people who can't let go of season 1.

[Blonde Gator]

11 minutes ago, Francie said:

This is where we're going to have to agree to disagree because the showrunners are not being forthcoming. 

If the showrunners were to have us believe that Cersei had taken the throne without "the shadow of a pretense of a legal claim to the throne," then we'd be seeing a Lannister lion in the opening credits. Cersei is gaining her authority -- at least this is how the lords have seen it -- based on her status as a Baratheon. We can all have issues that she is only a Baratheon by marriage, but that appears to be what the lords are conceding. Cersei is, arguably to them, the rightful heir to Tommen. 

The showrunners have not once said that Cersei has taken the throne through conquest. Indeed, the official story is that it was an accident. 

So, I am starting from a the premise that, at least to the lords of three kingdoms, they do recognize Cersei as the legitimate ruler, through blood and not might.  And Olenna, as a "governor," went and aligned herself with a foreign leader.  Olenna's former minor lords are now caught in the middle.  Tarly was saying that he chose which side, and he was going to hold true to that.  It was on Daenerys to show what kind of leader she wanted both: a) to be; and b) to be seen as in determining how to respond.  She went full Stannis.  And she will not be well-received from this point on. 

These were her prisoners. There is legitimately an open question as to who should rule Westeros. And instead of recognizing that, Dany is mandating that her captives recognize that she is their "true" leader. That's pretty tyrannical. 

About the only thing more annoying would be if she were to walk around, showing everybody her electoral map.

Thank you for reminding me about the opening credits.

Bolton's had theirs (flayed men) put on Winterfell, replacing the gray Stark wolf, after Roose got paid off for the Red Wedding.  And now that Sansa & Jon successfully re-took Winterfell, there is a WHITE wolf flying over Winterfell in the credits.  The fact that the  Stag remains over King's Landing with "Cersei Lannister, First of her Name" ruling, just makes no sense whatsoever.  It should be the Lannister Lion.  But it's not.  Something smells fishy...........

[Francie]

Here's my take on the entire "who should rule?" question.  There is no divine, invisible hand with all the guidelines.  There is no pure, objective law out there that explains this.  There will never be a right answer. 

Sure, oldest son of the oldest son of the oldest son is a pretty easy formula to follow, and as long as there's an oldest son of an oldest son of an oldest son, and no revolutions upsetting that in between. 

But when something throws it off, there's no magic -- "Let's go to the rule book" answer. It's an open game.  It's chaos.  It's the ladder that Littlefinger talked about for those who want to grab the brass ring.   And it's an illusion, as Littlefinger also taught us.  It's a bunch of people who agree on a version of the facts and a version of the truth.  It's "a story we agree to tell each other over and over, until we forget that it's a lie." 

There is no such thing as a "rightful" heir. That whole idea is a lie. So everyone looking to British royalty or theories of primogeniture -- those aren't answers. They are just another argument. A foundation upon which your fiction -- your lie -- is built. 

That's one of my issues with Daenerys. She's playing this game as though there are set guidelines -- this rule book -- and she's the winner, according to that rule book. And she expects and demands that everyone recognize her rule book. And she kills those who do not. 

"Power resides where [people] believe it resides." Any belief in a "right" will always have an underlying fiction. It will always be a construct.

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, Francie said:

If the showrunners were to have us believe that Cersei had taken the throne without "the shadow of a pretense of a legal claim to the throne," then we'd be seeing a Lannister lion in the opening credits. Cersei is gaining her authority -- at least this is how the lords have seen it -- based on her status as a Baratheon.

I don't see any evidence for this, particularly since when she was crowned, Qyburn proclaimed her "Cersei of the House Lannister".  

[YaddaYadda]

26 minutes ago, screamin said:

Aerys wasn't thinking of Rhaegar's benefit when he married him to Elia. He was apparently suspicious of Rhaegar since he was a teenager, believing he was plotting to usurp him. When given the chance to piss off Tywin at the same time, matching up his son with Elia looked like a brilliant move to such a nut-job.

Besides, in medieval times men went through wives like Kleenex, many of them dying in childbirth. If Elia dies, marry another.

I wonder if everyone around her wasn't just expecting her to die. 

I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Tywin had gotten to Aerys before Jaime killed him. 

So I just realized that Jon did take dragonglass with him back to Eastwatch in those small cases they were loading onto the boat and unloading. 

[Allie56]

1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

Quote

Shouldn't the crew venturing north of the wall maybe invest in some hats? Earmuffs, at least?

Seriously! not one of them covers their head-- they'll all catch cold!

This has bothered me the ENTIRE SERIES. I have frostbitten ears from not wearing a hat during a bitter Midwestern winter, and my ears hurt like hell when it gets below 50 degrees. I can't imagine with the wind and ice and snow of the far north. It drives me to distraction. 

I was so glad to see the mercenary Bronn back, looking out for #1. After his seemingly selfless behavior in the last battle, I was so happy to hear him call Jaime a "c***," to see him make clear that he's only with the Lannisters as long as he's getting paid, and to hear him definitively state that he has no intention to stay around and get killed by dragons. 

I thought Kit did a fabulous job portraying the awe of seeing a dragon up close. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Allie56

[Francie]

9 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't see any evidence for this, particularly since when she was crowned, Qyburn proclaimed her "Cersei of the House Lannister".  

 It's the same reason that Robert, of House Baratheon,  was held  to have the strongest claim to the throne, because of his Targaryen heritage. He is there on the seat by virtue of being a Targaryen. But he is of house Baratheon, because that is his last name. 

Look, I'm not enamored of the idea. But the show runners have let us down in this regard.  And, other than laziness, I can't explain why they still have a stag in the opening credits. If they didn't mean for Cersei to have the throne through her connection to Tommen, they would've changed it to a lion.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[KungFuBunny]

Did anyone notice that Gendry's weapon of choice is the same as his father Robert Baratheon (warhammer)?

Just to make sure I went on Wiki Game Of Thrones.

There has been mention on this board that the Mad King denounced Prince Rhaegar and made Viserys heir to the throne. I don't remember that in the books.

What I did just read on Wiki and did not know was that Robert Baratheon has Targaryeon blood - his grandmother was a Targ. Also Mya Stone of the Vale that got Catelyn Stark up that basket is Robert Baratheon's love child

[screamin]

30 minutes ago, Blonde Gator said:

I just re-watched the episode.

It wasn't a Maester's diary/list of stuff book that Gilly was reading.  It was written by a High Septon (head of the Faith of the Seven).  Which carries even MORE weight than that of a Maester, who is a recorder of history, rather than a maker of history.  That a High Septon annulled Rhaegar's marriage to Elia, and performed a secret second wedding ceremony in Dorne makes the evidence golden.

It makes NO flippin' sense, though. The Westerosi High Septon is this universe's equivalent of the Pope, and he's based in KL. And we're supposed to believe the High Septon took himself in secret all the way to Dorne, without benefit of Popemobile, granted an annulment that he knew would raise political hell, then performed a marriage he knew would raise even MORE political hell if he kept it secret, and yet somehow despite all the entourage required for this NO ONE ever heard about it till now? (Not to mention it beggars belief that a man who kept such OCD track of his bowel movements would be willing to go to such trouble; all that fuss upsets digestion, don't you know.)

God, how easy it would have been, instead of writing "Sam, what's annulment?" to simply write, "Sam, what's polygamous marriage?"

Edited August 14, 2017 by screamin

[FemmyV]

3 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

Yes, admittedly I guess part of the problem would be that they don't have a spare dead person at the Wall because they've been burning all the dead bodies.   S

In the books, wasn't Jon keeping a few on ice (literally) for study? I could've sworn ....

[Chris24601]

8 minutes ago, Allie56 said:

I thought Kit did a fabulous job portraying the awe of seeing a dragon up close. 

I've heard it says that Kit rises to the level of the people he's acting the scene with. The reason he appears to have more chemistry with a soccer ball on a stick than with Emilia in his scenes is probably best not dwelling upon.

[henripootel]

4 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

In the books, wasn't Jon keeping a few on ice (literally) for study? I could've sworn ....

He shouldn't need to.  Don't know what's been happening up at the wall but like as not, there's somebody up there who died recently or is about to.  Take them north of wall, wait a bit and bam, instant wight.    No need to go fossicking about that'll certainly bring you into contact with a ton of the buggers.  

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, FemmyV said:

In the books, wasn't Jon keeping a few on ice (literally) for study? I could've sworn ....

Yup.

[Constantinople]

I wish Jorah had stayed at Dragonstone to counter the Tyrion/Varys peace train duo.  I think they're being somewhat unrealistic, particuarly Varys who was Master of Whispers during Robert's Rebellion and who planned to use the Dothraki to put Viserys on the throne.

[Andromeda]

15 hours ago, Shimmergloom said:

Remember that Kings or Queen's can legitimize bastards.  Jon can make Gendry legitimate. 

Also, remember as book readers, many for a long time have felt that Elia and Rheagar had a loveless marriage and it was possible that her children, were not his children and we would find that out when Aegon tried to tame one of the dragons.  That he's not a Targ.

I think it would be interesting if after all this time wondering who would be the one who killed Cersei, if it turns out that the Younger, more Beautiful woman turns out to be her own daughter and Cersei dies in childbirth.  It would be a Martin thing to do, for Cersei to die, but not in the way that people expected or wanted.

I thought he had the white Targ hair, which I don't think he'd get from Dornish Elia.

[SimoneS]

2 hours ago, nodorothyparker said:

  So the Family Tarly was merely a plot device with no payoff.

Not yet, I would say. I have always been convinced that the Night Watch will be disbanded or eliminated after the war against the NK and Cersei is won. This would leave Sam as the new Lord Tarly and I would expect Jon to give him Highgarden which his father was in line to inherit before he betrayed Olenna. Sam, Gilly, Little Sam, his mother, and his sister (who no longer would have to marry that old man at the father's insistence) should make out quite well in the end.

Also, Sam will likely give the Valyrian sword to Jorah so it will be put to good use.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[Constantinople]

There was at least one amusing moment in last night's show

Tyrion (sees message): Who's that for?

Varys: Jon Snow.

Tyrion: Did you read it?

Varys: It's a sealed scroll for the King in the North.

Tyrion: What's it say?

[SimoneS]

38 minutes ago, Francie said:

But the show runners have let us down in this regard.  And, other than laziness, I can't explain why they still have a stag in the opening credits. If they didn't mean for Cersei to have the throne through her connection to Tommen, they would've changed it to a lion.

The stag stayed in the credits because they always intended Gendry to return and reestablish the Baratheons. It isn't a coincidence that Gendry made a war hammer with the Baratheon sigil which he promptly smashed into those two Lannister guards, told Davos that he wanted revenge against the house than killed his father, told Jon who he really was, and volunteered to go on the wight capture debacle. D&D even said that they intended to bring back Gendry in season six, but they could not fit it in the story.

Edited August 14, 2017 by SimoneS

[LanceM]

3 hours ago, Macbeth said:

I agree.  When talking about who has claim to the Throne.  Drogon's opinion matters most.

If that is the case than Dany is Queen.  People are getting little carried away with the Jon-Drogon scene which in my opinion was just another in a long line of not so subtle hints that Jon is a Targaryen. But nevertheless lets compare:

Drogon allows Dany to climb on top of him and ride him, obeys her commands and is fiercely protective of her and will attack anyone that would do her harm.

Drogon allowed Jon to pet his nose.

[Francie]

18 minutes ago, doram said:

That's not much different from Cersei claiming the Throne through her tenuous link to the Baratheon House; or Robert in his turn claiming the throne through his tenuous link to the Targaryen House that he exterminated.

 

At least Dany isn't summarily blowing up Septs or murdering children with the wrong blood.

 

No matter how it's sliced, she still ends up looking as the best candidate on offer. In these medieval times, not everyone can be unanimously elected over his true-born siblings like special snowflake Jon Snow.

I broke up your post into three parts. 

As to paragraph one, I absolutely agree.  Cersei has no better claim to the throne then Dany.  And the converse is true as well.   Anyone arguing that Danny has a "right" to the throne has to ignore the entire idea that her family has been dethroned for a generation. And ignore that Aegon was a conqueror himself. They have to ignore that she is, essentially, foreigner. They have to ignore that we've seen no one in Westeros, in all the years that she's been gone, has lamented the loss of the Targaryen rulers.

2. You are factually incorrect as to your second claim. You are overreaching or mistaken. 

3. That is your opinion, which is seemingly shaped on how much you like the character.   If you're saying she's the best candidate due to her qualifications, she shown herself to be an absolute mess in Essos. If you're saying she's the best candidate because of her "right," then see my answer to paragraph number one. 

[YaddaYadda]

13 minutes ago, doram said:

I'm a book reader and I don't remember anything about Rhaegar+Elia being a loveless marriage just that she was sickly and had difficult pregnancies and probably couldn't have any more children.

Loveless is probably not the right word. Barristan said Rhaegar was fond of Elia. He also said he loved his Lady Lyanna and thousands died for it. For all we know, they got along just fine, they may not have loved each other, but they didn't actively hate each other either as far as we know. 

[Growsonwalls]

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

Also re: Cersei's hair I think it's her choice to keep it short. Now that her only romance is her brother, her kids are gone, and she's queen of King's Landing, there's no need to keep up the feminine charm anymore. Cersei has always been a ballbuster. I've noticed her outfits are less fancy and medieval as well but are instead simple dark dresses. 

The other possibility is she's wearing her hair short to commemorate her three dead children?

Edited August 14, 2017 by Growsonwalls

[TarotQueen]

1 hour ago, YaddaYadda said:

I wonder if everyone around her wasn't just expecting her to die. 

I wonder sometimes what would have happened if Tywin had gotten to Aerys before Jaime killed him. 

So I just realized that Jon did take dragonglass with him back to Eastwatch in those small cases they were loading onto the boat and unloading. 

We dont get a lot of background on how thier betrothal was established ... we know more about the failed effort "The Princess of Dorne" made to get Elia engaged to Jaime though, so my guess is Aerys meant it to be a dig at Tywin since he wanted Cersei to marry Rhaegar.  Gave that rejection a bit more zing to turn around and marry Rhaegar to someone Tywin hadnt thought was good enough for his son.

Could have also been a good faith match made between besties Rhaella and her old lady in waiting.  Rhaella had a pretty shitty life and no reason to love her lineage enough for a commitment to length or purity.  I could see her saying, theoretically, burn it all, and not really caring whether the match would be fruitful.

Couldve been both too.

Edited August 14, 2017 by TarotQueen

[YaddaYadda]

2 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

Sometimes, living with a lie for so long can make it difficult to tell the truth. 

And Ned also calls the secrets he's keeping too dangerous to share, even with the people he loves. All it takes is one person to overhear for the secret to spread, and Jon being a Targaryen makes him a prime target for Robert and Tywin. Robert says he'll kill every Targaryen he can get his hands on, he still hates the hell out of Rhaegar and believes the story he wants to believe that Lyanna was kidnapped and raped to death. 

Ned has a wife and children of his own, shit would hit the fan really fast if the truth came out. There are still Targaryen sympathizers in the kingdoms. Whose to say they won't try and rally around Jon and try and place him on the throne?

[LanceM]

7 minutes ago, Francie said:

I broke up your post into three parts. 

As to paragraph one, I absolutely agree.  Cersei has no better claim to the throne then Dany.  And the converse is true as well.   Anyone arguing that Danny has a "right" to the throne has to ignore the entire idea that her family has been dethroned for a generation. And ignore that Aegon was a conqueror himself. They have to ignore that she is, essentially, foreigner. They have to ignore that we've seen no one in Westeros, in all the years that she's been gone, has lamented the loss of the Targaryen rulers.

 

Sorry that is now how it works. Yes, Aegon conquered the seven kingdoms and in doing so established a dynasty that lasted 280 years.  That is how a  royal family establishes legitimacy. That is why yes, Dany has a strong claim to the throne. That is why Jon has a strong claim to the throne.  Cersei has no legal claim to the throne whatsoever. She just took it because she could.

[Francie]

1 minute ago, LanceM said:

dynasty that lasted 280 years.

You know what's better than a dynasty that lasts 280 years? 

One that lasts 1,000.

[rmontro]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

At any rate, I'm just glad Drogon is OK, because that's really the only thing I was worried about. 

Lol, that was the main thing I was worried about as well.  Especially after someone here posted about how he was named after Drogo, and Drogo had been killed by a festering shoulder wound.

 I'm actually surprised at how quickly he recovered, he doesn't even seem to have any trouble flying, at all.

[LanceM]

6 minutes ago, Francie said:

You know what's better than a dynasty that lasts 280 years? 

One that lasts 1,000.

Sure. But we haven't had any dynasty that has sat on the Iron Throne for 1000 years so I don't know what your point is. Do you really think that average guy in Westeros makes a distinction between 280 years and 1000 years. They don't.  We are talking about what 15 generations or so who knew only the rule of only one family on the Iron Throne prior to Robert's usurpation.

[KungFuBunny]

I would love it if Jon and Co capture a WW and stop off at Winterfell.

While in Winterfell, they throw Littlefinger into the same cage and have the captured WW infect LF. Captured WW is then killed by fire or dragon glass.

Then drag scrawny White Walker Littlefinger off to King's Landing. It might be more effective and make Cersei take pause seeing someone she knows "turned"

[YaddaYadda]

3 minutes ago, doram said:

I believe Ned didn't tell Catelyn because he didn't want her to share his burden of deceit/deception. And I think that Ned was tired of fighting. And it must have been an incredible blow to him to find out that the war was started for something that was not even true - the story that Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna was apparently a lie. 

Maybe it's my Catelyn hate that's clouding my judgement, but I don't even sure how well she would have taken that because of the danger the secret put her family in. One of Ned's thoughts was him wondering what Catelyn would do if it came to the children of her body or Jon, he prayed he'd never have to find out. Rhaegar kidnapping and raping Lyanna is probably the best cover story there is.

What I find really funny is that when it comes to Robb's will, or Sam in Oldtown, there's this clear chain of communication that's going on on how people can find out that Jon has been named KitN by Robb, or how Sam can get to influential people with regards to the WW. With R+L and who else might know about Jon, that chain of communication is so murky.

Quote

Maybe they should have rallied around Jon and placed him on the throne? Maybe Ned should have done so instead of raising him as a bastard and tearing apart his own family to keep the secret? 

As far as the Ned placing Jon on the throne, why would he do that? Wouldn't that go counter to the promise he made his sister? I have no doubt the north will follow Ned, and Houses in the riverlands like Darry, some of crownlands would follow, Crackclaw Point, but what would it achieve when there's the force of the stormlands and the westerlands and most likely the Vale is behind Robert? If Ned loses his bet, the Starks lose Winterfell, the north and Jon dies.

7 minutes ago, KungFuBunny said:

I would love it if Jon and Co capture a WW and stop off at Winterfell.

And let it loose on Glover.

[Francie]

8 minutes ago, doram said:

1. Whether Cersei has a better claim or not is irrelevant to my point. The point being made is that she (Cersei) is making a claim based on something, just as Dany and every one else has. So why is Dany singled out* as if she is the only one who makes claims to the Iron Throne based on this fictional rule-book?

2. Which is factually incorrect - that Dany is not blowing up Septs or that Dany is not executing children?

3. Dany wasn't an absolute mess in Essos - this isn't an opinion, it's a fact as stated by the show-runners and "creators" of this Show in various commentaries and interviews. So your perspective on this as in (1)* is based on your dislike of the character and I don't think there's anything to be gained from going down that rabbit hole. 

1.  That point isn't only relevant to mine, it *is* my point. She may seem like she's bring singled out because she's the one running around declaring an unalienable right to be on the throne. Going on about in perpetuity, and demanding that every man, woman, child, plant, tree, and bush bend the knee and accept her reality. If Viserys  showed up claiming the same thing, I would find him just as ridiculous. 

Cersei gathered lords from one kingdom and she made her best pitch as up why they should recognize her. No "bend the knee or die" demands. And now, even with blowing up the sept, Dany has a worse PR problem then she does. 

2. The implication that Cersei had children killed. 

3. You're totally right. She did a bang up job. The riot. The corruption. The unrest. The violence. You should know my opinion of Dany is based on how poorly she did as a "leader" in Essos, and her determination to bring that single-mindedness and dogmatism to Westeros. 

[Constantinople]

30 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

One thing about Jon's parentage that makes little sense is that if Ned wasn't the father, why would he maintain that lie for so many years? Even when Catelyn was jealous, possessive and resentful. You would have thought he would have let her know the secret. I can see Ned raising the boy out of the goodness of his heart but the elaborate lie he maintained for years makes even less sense now that we know that Jon's not even illegitimate.

I'll kill every Targaryen I get my hands on - Robert Baratheon, The King's Road, Season 1 Episode 2

[Francie]

 My point is that 280 is arbitrary. It doesn't magically transform into "legitimacy."  If you are arguing that it does, at what point does, at what point does that happen? 50 years? 100?

You say people accept it because it's been so many generations, it sure seems like were seeing the opposite, now, isn't it? They don't seem to flocking to Dany, at all. She had 3 women join her, and bring their forces, all because of personal objectives they had.  So no one is accepting of Danny's rule just because her great great great great great great great grandpa created the job. 

Edited August 14, 2017 by Francie

[magdalene]

1 hour ago, nodorothyparker said:

Tom Hopper was completely wasted here.  I can't figure out why they even bothered with a recast for that.

So that maybe some people would care that Dany had Dickon burned to death? It worked on me. Hopper has one of those faces that make me care about his characters.  If it had just been his arrogant asshole father Dany killed I would have thought in the abstract - what a barbaric way to kill someone, but oh well Randall Tarly wasn't exactly filled with the milk of human kindness so ....

However, Dickon was kind of naive and basically decent and his brutal death made me think of the fate  Shireen suffered at the hands of Stannis.  But Karma got Stannis and I am hoping Dany won't be rewarded for the ruthless things she has done to fulfill her ambitions and force everybody and their dog to bend the knee to her. I know this is a minority position but it's how I feel.

Tyrion wasn't too pleased about those executions either and he has a lot times represented the view of the sort of moral outsider POV on the show and is GRRM's darling in the books.

[Willowy]

I read through the first 10 pages here, but skipped through after that - has anyone brought up Drogon's obvious intelligence and cognition with a lot of the shit that's going on around him? I don't know if he reads Dany's mind or what but he practically introduced her when she was addressing the Lannister troops. When he deliberately smashed the scorpion I was like... what? He's a mythic beast and a powerful flying reptile - but how does he know to do that? Then his recognition of Jon, and him reining himself in and not breathing fire until Dany gives the signal, and knowing exactly who and what she wants torched?

It just seems to me he's got quite a lot on the ball, like maybe much more intelligence than a horse or dog. Once and for all, ARE the dragons telepathic?

[crowceilidh]

Quote

  3 HOURS AGO, CROWCEILIDH SAID:

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AND that series is finished, so you don't have to worry about dying before the thing ends).

Somewhere in the world people are dying before the beginning or the end of something.

I worry ( not too seriously ) GRRM or I may bite it before the end of either mediums conclusion.

Not to be too much of a downer, but as someone with stage 4 cancer already 5 years beyond my sell-by date,  who started reading the series in good faith in 1996, I don't find it ti be much of a joking matter.  Of course, it does give me a reason to keep on doing all the treatments<grin>....

Actually, I'm firmly in the camp that GRRM has literally lost the plot.  I've been rather sure for a while that I'm not going to see the end of the book series.  But I used to think that was because GRRM, a pasty white overweight cigar-smoking old guy, wasn't going to live long enough..

P.S.  Don't need any sympathy - just another damn book.

Edited August 15, 2017 by crowceilidh

[LanceM]

44 minutes ago, Francie said:

 My point is that 280 is arbitrary. It doesn't magically transform into "legitimacy."  If you are arguing that it does, at what point does, at what point does that happen? 50 years? 100?

You say people accept it because it's been so many generations, it sure seems like were saying the opposite, now, isn't it? They don't seem to flocking to Dany, at all. She had 3 women join her, and bring their forces, all because of personal objectives they had.  So no one is accepting of Danny's rule just because her great great great great great great great grandpa created the job. 

Going by a real world example Charles Edward Stuart led the last uprising to restore the Stuarts to the throne of Great Britain about 50 or so years after they were exiled.  So yeah you are probably talking about 2 to 3 generations. And Dany had the support of 2 of the 7 kingdoms of Westeros and a 3rd as well had Yara been able to defeat Euron. Reducing that to just 3 women is very disingenuous.

[piequinn35]

Sorry I don't want to dig in 13 pages thread, what was on the scroll that Arya read?

I am thinking it was a setup by Little Finger for Arya but Arya is smarter than him.

[Colorful Mess]

20 hours ago, Eyes High said:

While I am confident that Dany is not mad and will never go mad, and while I don't see any issue with her decision to burn the Tarlys (she gave them a choice which they refused, fair enough), my vibe from the way D&D are writing her is that they don't see her as endgame queen, even as queen to Jon's king. I dunno. 

I do see a problem in saying she is giving her potential followers a choice, though. She set the terms.They weren't allowed to question these terms. Thats no choice. She gives them a narrow range of available options as her scarily intimidating fire executioner stands right behind her.  Assailants also give their victims a choice when they say you can either give me all your money or get a shot to the head.

Which is why I totally agree with you about the endgame queen. In this universe burning people alive is not welcomed as any kind of "just" ruling, especially if the rulers use it to argue they are "protecting" people, as she does.

She's not insane. She's fully aware of her actions. Which is possibly even worse. 

[areca]

So my friend pointed out that the entire Fellowship of the Wight is unnecessary.  Simply take a PoW or criminal sentenced to death north.  Put him in a cage.  Perform the necessary execution and wait overnight for him to wight-ify.  Take him back south.  In and out in 24 hours or less.

Edited August 15, 2017 by areca

[GrailKing]

11 minutes ago, piequinn35 said:

Sorry I don't want to dig in 13 pages thread, what was on the scroll that Arya read?

I am thinking it was a setup by Little Finger for Arya but Arya is smarter than him.

The letter Sansa was forced to write before Ned was killed, asking Robb to goto KL and bend the knee, Sansa paused and asked if she could see her father, Cersei let her know, it wasn't happening, Robb couldn't see Sansa was under duress, Luwin and Cat had to explain it to him.ETA : LF was there and said Sansa should be given the chance to prove her loyaty.

Edited August 14, 2017 by GrailKing