S01.E08: The Defenders

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

As New York edges closer to disaster, Elektra sees what's beyond the wall, and the Defenders make a last-ditch effort to save the city.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

It's official. I want to be Jessica Jones when I grow up.

I think doing an eight episode stretch helped this show a lot - the story moved fast, and stuff kept happening. It started slow (and when that stretch that showed Alexandra 'resurrecting' Elektra happened? I was sooo close to clocking out), but after that? It moved along well. And then this episode...you guys, it got really dusty in here. Even though I knew that Matt COULDN'T be dead, I fell for it. Foggy & Karen when he didn't walk through the door? Oww. That hurt.

I'm already looking forward to a re-watch.

[retrograde]

I enjoyed this well enough after episode 3 (I know they had to do some groundwork-laying but yikes, that was a slog).

It wasn't even in the same league as JJ or LC, but I certainly liked it more than Iron Fist. And Iron Fist continued to be the worst part of this show. Other than being the butt of the other heroes' jokes, he didn't add much -- either as a character or a fighter. I don't know if I need to see all these guys team up again, but I'm definitely down with more cross-overs in the future. I especially liked Matt and Jessica's dynamic. I also liked some of the sidekicks meeting -- I can see Karen and Trish working together again. 

[thuganomics85]

Damn, Matt!  I get Elektra is hot and all, but is she worth getting crushed by an entire building for?!  In all honesty, I do think him staying behind helped saved the others because if he didn't she probably would have still broken the elevator and maybe do worse, but it still kind of made the whole "He died saving his city!" spiel inaccurate.  Of course, he isn't dead but in some kind of nunnery?  And the nun he was with said to tell some woman he is alive?  Season Three of Daredevil is going to be weird as hell!  I also will not be surprised if somehow both Elektra and Madam Gao survive.  In particular, the latter is pretty much the cockroach of The Hand and it will take more then a building to do her in!

I really feel bad for crapping all over Danny, but these past two episodes really showed how insignificant he was because Matt, Jessica, and Luke by themselves (with back-up from Colleen and Claire) were perfect together with all the quips, banter, and interactions.  Although I did like Danny's stuff with Luke in the past episodes.  But he really is pretty much the annoying younger sibling out of this dysfunctional family.

Glad we got some brief Trish/Karen stuff and then bits with them and Foggy/Malcolm.  I wish they integrated the supporting cast better, but I guess they only had a certain amount of time.

Glad Colleen was the one to take out Bakuto, but I guess Misty getting her arm cut off (ouch!) helping out is setting it up for the two to interact more in the future shows since that apparently happens in the comics.

Overall, I'll easily put this over Iron Fist and the second half of Luke Cage.  Maybe even the second half of Daredevil S2 too.  I do think only eight episodes helped with the pacing issues later on, although admittedly they probably could not dragged out the opening as much as they did.  A few other issues like not using the supporting crew all that well and as much as I love Elodie Yung, I really can't figure out what in the hell they are going for with Elektra and why Matt is so infatuated with her, but I had fun.  The quickest I have ever binged a show too.  

For me personally, Jessica was the best of The Defenders, Colleen Wing was easily the MVP of the rest, and Luke was the most pleasant surprise this go around, as I'm usually indifferent towards him, but he had some great lines, reactions, and fight scenes in this.  And, of course, the Least Valuable Player was good old Danny, but at least I don't hate him.  If anything, I get a kick out of him being so dumb.  Silly Danny!

[Cthulhudrew]

I just knew an arm wasn't going to make it out of this season. :'(

That last scene really reminded me of a scene in Born Again (not the least reason for which is Maggie), which makes me wonder if that's where they're going with it. It would be kind of an odd place to start that storyline, though.

They did get me going for a bit with thinking they'd actually killed off Matt, though. I was like- wait! Didn't they already cast s3 and start breaking it down? Did I miss something?

It would have been nice to see the other characters mention something about the GIANT FRICKIN' DRAGON SKELETON underground. Danny seemed to think it was Shao-Lao, though, at least based on his dialogue with Madame Gao. How's that work? Body buried on Earth underneath NYC, but his Heart is in San Francisco K'un-L'un?

[Oscirus]

This last episode saved it from being the shit show it could'v been. I stil l think that the Defenders deserved a better story but it worked for now.

Highlights included the sister of the dragons taking on Coleen's old mentor, complete with Misty getting a bionic arm in the near future, Jessica Jones finally getting to use her abilities and madame gao. 

Let's be real electra and Madam Gao are probably not dead either. Major setback for the Hand, but I don't think they're done.

Poor Luke and Matt both caught between two women. If the comic books are any indication, Danny Rand will be as well in the near future.

[Bec]

Elektra did die saving Matt in her previous life, so it's only fair that he tries to return the favor by trying to save her even if it kills him. I think the show set it up as well as it could by showing us how tormented he still was by her death in the earlier episodes before he crossed paths with her again. I wouldn't buy him just giving up on her when there is still any hope at all.

Elektra's motivations, on the other hand, I'm fuzzier on. Some part of her still cares about Matt. Why does she keep trying to kill him (but always hesitating at the last second)? Is she fighting him because she thinks he let her die and she's miffed about that? Or does she want to kill him so she can bring him back, then they can be undead together, but she just can't quite go through with killing him? I'm confused.

I was sure there was no way Matt was actually dead, but the longer the epilogue went on without him, the more I was like "Uh, guys... Matt's not really dead... right? Right?" I had a scary thought that Danny's going to replace him as Daredevil in Daredevil season 3. Heh.

I did get a case of the sniffles at everyone else's reactions to thinking Matt is dead. Even Jessica looked like she was tearing up.

[AudienceofOne]

1 hour ago, Bec said:

Elektra's motivations, on the other hand, I'm fuzzier on.

That's a fucking understatement. This is two shows this character has bemirsched with her non-existent characterisation. Hopefully she's now completely really dead so I don't have to put up with her anymore. 

On that note, can anyone tell me why the Hand set off and then covered up the earthquake? Why did the architect kill himself? Why did the Hand build on top of the hole instead of just going down into it? Were they saying that NYC was built on top of a dragon?

Was the plot of this show really poor OHS while dragon mining?

[MissL]

I'm still amazed they let the sidekicks wander all over the police station without supervision. Karen, a reporter, and Trish, a radio personality, stand in front of an evidence board for like an hour and Karen is TAKING NOTES?  Nobody stops them? Colleen walks into an evidence room and out with C4? I'll buy superpowers and dragons but they need to wrap some realism in there somewhere. 

And very few of the sidekicks interacted outside their circles. That was disappointing. 

I didn't understand why Mat stayed behind but I guess from reading  this  thread it could be partially to stop Elektra from stopping the others.  He had to know he didn't have time to get through to her AND get them both out of there. 

I binged the whole thing in one day which maybe means I liked it but I think overall I was a bit disappointed. Don't know if they'll do another one but sometimes the second go around is better because the character interactions are established, but I do hope this increases the chance of crossovers. Can't wait for Jessica Jones season 2 but Im still going nowhere near Iron Fist. 

[Oscirus]

4 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

That's a fucking understatement. This is two shows this character has bemirsched with her non-existent characterisation. Hopefully she's now completely really dead so I don't have to put up with her anymore. 

On that note, can anyone tell me why the Hand set off and then covered up the earthquake? Why did the architect kill himself? Why did the Hand build on top of the hole instead of just going down into it? Were they saying that NYC was built on top of a dragon?

Was the plot of this show really poor OHS while dragon mining?

I assume the Hand bought this office knowing that it was built on top of said dragon bones, they were likely slowly digging until Alexandra found out she was dying so they set off some sort of explosions to expedite the process. Architct likely figured out a way to get through that wall, found out what they were doing and decided not to. He killed himself to make sure they couldn't use him to get through the wall.

[rtms77]

So Electra and Matt are surly alive since both of them were swimming in dragons blood while fighting right? The camera focus was being pretty obvious about it.Madam Gao and Murakami are question marks though. Gao did go down a few times in the fight but I don't recall if she ever touched the liquid and the same could be said of Murakami though being impaled on that rod and the building collapse should have done him in. I figured Gao was trying to escape when she slithered away near the end. I did love her descriptions of the hero group and Jessica's was hilarious. Devil of Hell's Kitchen, the Iron Fist, the Man who does not break and the Unyielding Woman,lol. 

 

Collen and Misty were the only interesting sidekicks in this show. Trish disappeared in ep 7 after making a big todo getting her in six and introducing her to the others. Foggy and Karen were so distant from the others, as if they wanted nothing to do with the whole thing and continued to act like none of this was happening. They had such tunnel vision about Matt that I wanted to yell at them to get lost and make it on their own.

As others have said Danny Rand was the weak link in this group. I got the feeling they were trying hard to redeem, improve, build up his character etc only to fail because of either the writing or the actor just could not do anything with his premise. They really tried to make his character stand out by making the story around his special fist, but wow he just continually came off as clueless and stupid the whole series and this ep. Now that the Hand is gone what is his purpose? 

Looking forward to Jessica Jones who really was the only interesting character this series had. Luke is too bland, Danny is a baby, Matt is either going to be amnesia for his next series or a complete wreak now that he lost his love and his mentor.

[Enigma X]

Of all the NetFlix Marvel series, this one disappointed me the most. I am not saying it was the worst acted or anything. As far as my expectation level went, this one fell flat. 

I am not an Electra or Colleen fan. So there's that.

I actually think Jones and Colter did an ok job here. I wish everyone who knew Claire (which is almost everyone) made that connection. The one baddie (Cottonmouth) I wanted brought back to life wasn't. I kept hoping Alexandra would show why she was head of the Hand. She never did.

And I like Jessica Jones but she is not the only good Defender in my opinion. I get it. 

[bettername2come]

I love Claire telling Colleen to stay behind to help her since the Defenders can take care of themselves, and Colleen giving her credit for saving just as many people as they have. I really like their friendship. I like Trish and Karen meeting, and Trish's explanation of how Jessica's a good friend when it matters. MCU needs more female friendships, but Defenders and the Netflix series in general have done a good job in that arena. So is Misty gonna get a bionic arm now? Loved Jessica jumping out of the elevator and holding it up. "Protect my city." That is so Matt Murdock. Oh, God, that moment where Foggy and Karen are watching for Matt to walk through the door and he doesn't. Claire gets to have more of a connection to Matt once she thinks he's dead than she did while he was alive on this series. 

I had high expectations for this series that weren't met. Everything felt really rushed. Didn't is all happen in the span of about a week? I was also disappointed that this had only 8 episodes compared to other series' thirteen. Would've liked to see more of the supporting players interact with the team because I liked what we got. I wish we could've seen more of Trish and Jessica together. And would a vague Spider-Man reference have killed them?

Personally, my rankings for the Netflix series go: Jessica Jones, Daredevil season 1, The Defenders, Luke Cage, Daredevil season 2, Iron Fist. 

[penguinnj]

14 minutes ago, bettername2come said:

"Protect my city." That is so Matt Murdock. Oh, God, that moment where Foggy and Karen are watching for Matt to walk through the door and he doesn't. Claire gets to have more of a connection to Matt once she thinks he's dead than she did while he was alive on this series. 

Yeah- I almost teared up at that one.

As an Elektra fan I loved the series despite a bit of a slow start.  The way I read it, and I could be wrong, she is now afraid of death and wants to die together with Matt so she won't be alone in the great void of nothing Alexandra described.  She wanted the building to come down on them both.  And I don't think she has any feelings left about anyone else.

As much as Danny still annoys me- Finn Jones seemed to be having a much better time and that helped A LOT.  Also loved the idea that he all of the Iron Fists are incredibly dim.  He fits right in instead of being a complete idiot.

Was slightly disappointed there was no larger Marvel reference.  Shouldn't Danny at least know of Tony Stark or Hank Pym from Ant Man?  There can only be so many NY billionaire vigilantes.  I get that the stakes have to walk the thin line of being huge but not at the level of global extinction, but the problem is Tony seems so plugged in to tracking people with "abilities" that it's weird he does not have a mention or a presence here.   

[ruby24]

Guessing Elektra's alive since Matt is too. I can see her coming back and trying to re-build the Hand as assassins who kill villains next time. And she and Matt of course clash again on her methods.

I can't stand Karen Page though. I far prefer Matt and Elektra so I hope she's not dead.

[moonshine71]

10 hours ago, Bec said:

I had a scary thought that Danny's going to replace him as Daredevil in Daredevil season 3. Heh.

 

Danny will definitely be taking up the mantle of Daredevil for at least a bit, until Matt returns. I think the final rooftop shot of him and what Matt said to him confirmed that. Plus, it's straight out of the comics. I actually think it will be good for the character, he seemed to finally be getting over his whole "I'm the Iron Fist, protector of Kin Lun" thing and became more interested protecting New York. Plus, I'm guessing they aren't charging ahead with a season 2 of Iron Fist, but that they will use him a lot in coming seasons of Daredevil and Luke Cage(which was set up a bit, also).

Glad to see I'm not the only one that thought the lack of Matt/Claire interaction was weird. I thought I missed something, like Matt bumping into her at the precinct, and asking her "what are you doing here, how'd you get mixed up in this?". 

[SnoGirl]

I....dont know how I feel about this episode. I think I just expected more.

Matt. Killing yourself was your plan? I mean, I should have seen the writing on the walls since you had been self-sacrificing yourself since season one, but that was your go-to move? I wish he had listened to Stick earlier when he said "We're only going to get out if this together." As a team, as The Defenders I bet they could have gotten out of there alive if they had actually worked together instead of everyone almost always fighting on their own.

Speaking of The Defenders, did they ever have that magical team moment? It was all "rescue Danny" and then "fight our way out." I felt like there was no growth. Matt still fought Electra on his own. Did Danny ever learn teamwork? Did any of them learn teamwork? Luke and Jessica were kinda developed with the others (Luke and Finn, Matt and Jessica). Im also shipping Matt and Jessica. Their scenes together sparked.

The whole season is blurring together and I need to rewatch, but was it just my imagination or did the trailers for the season show the Punisher and we never saw him?? I was expecting him to show up at the end, grabbing Matt or shooting Electra. I literally saw Matt laying there at the end, thinking maybe Punisher would be hanging around somewhere and we'd see a flashback to Matt getting out. I literally shouted "WTH" when the credits rolled. That would have been one heck of an ending, especially since I think the Punisher likes Matt deep down. Im mad he was in a trailer.

[Advance35]

I have quite a few feelings about this part of the Marvel "cinematic" Universe.  First let me say, even when Matt comes back, I really do NOT want to see Karen Page again.  For the love of the Marvel Deities, Please.  The girl makes me envy for the company of a wet blanket.

I'm one of the few people who actually likes this incarnation of Danny Rand.  I think Finn Jones does a good job brining that earnest but clumsy energy to the character.  He's self-aggrandizing and gullible but I never doubt that his heart is in the right place.   I actually really liked his character dynamic with pretty much everyone.  Luke/Danny, Jessica/Danny and Matt/Danny were all enjoyable from my perspective.

I didn't care about Alexandra, but my favorite Hand villains have always been Madam Gao and Bakuto.  Something about Bakuto's voice, I find it so attractive.  Gao is probably the smartest out of all of them.  I'm convinced she'll one day bury everyone, if she survived this latest Hero/Villain showdown.  If not, these are two characters I will very much miss.

Misty Knight, so they are going to do the rm thing.?!?!  I wonder if you know who is going to factor into that.  I'm a comic fan so I know about her arm and who takes an interest in her situation.

All in all, I really liked the series.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Advance35

[MrWhyt]

I liked the fast pace of the series, all the other marvel netflix shows are at least 2 episodes too long IMO, even JJ and DD S1. I thought the team worked really well together, played off each other nicely. I hope Madam Gao makes it out alive, aside from the main characters I think she is my favorite person in the Netflix universe. I was really worried for Colleen in the final fight, I was sure they'd kill off some semi-major character in this series but I guess Stick filled that slot.

[GHScorpiosRule]

15 minutes ago, SnoGirl said:

Im also shipping Matt and Jessica. Their scenes together sparked.

I think the Punisher likes Matt deep down. Im mad he was in a trailer.

Me too!!!!!!

That was a low blow- and moreso because it was a trailer for his show, which I think is next. I don't understand why they can't air all of the shows in the same year instead of years apart.??

I enjoyed it over all, but my favorite team up, or rather, interactions were with Matt and Jessica. If she weren't so Fucked up, I would totally ship them! But I'm happy enough with them being teammates and friends. ??

Karen is the absolute worst-at least before she knew that Matt was Daredevil, she supported him, and thought Daredevil was awesome. Here? Turned into the typical whiny girlfriend/would be girlfriend trope of "it's too dangerous! You said you didn't miss it! You were just starting to rebuild your life!" Bullshit. At least Foggy redeemed himself at the end when he came to the police station with the devil suit. Matt had been doing the vigilante thing for awhile and before she even knew him, so she can shut up. Then There's her hypocrisy when it came to Punisher.

And I really liked how Danny and Luke became friends and how the show made it happen since in the comics they're supposed to be best friends. But really, Danny is a dumbass and the weakest link. Maybe this might not be the case if a stronger or better actor had been cast?

And I really hope that Elektra is really dead dead dead for real now. She's a sociopathic nutjob and not anywhere near similar to Bucky. And that was before she was resurrected.

And I continue to remain confused why Claire can't say Matt's name to Foggy. At the end, where it's clear that Luke knows who Matt is, what's with the "our mutual friend" as if Matt is supposed to be a secret??

And just HOW did Matt get to the nunnery? And the "she" is his mother, right?

For me, this show ranks third after Daredevil and Jessica Jones.

[Sakura12]

I kind of wish Jessica had to fly Misty to the hospital, just to see the others react to the fact that she can fly. I mean I guess she got her jumping high moment with the elevator. 

I'm another that likes Electra and not because of comics. I think Elodie Young is doing a great job at the playing the assassin that is in love with Matt.  If Matt survived then she's most likely alive as well. I also hope Madame Gao is alive. Out all of the Hand people she seemed like a survivor. She knows when it's time to leave to see another day. She's probably the Netflix Marvel shows most interesting villain.  

Wow, did I feel for Karen and Foggy when they figured out Matt wasn't going to walk through the door with the rest. But the others were kind of dicks for not shaking their heads or letting them know what happened to Matt. 

Now that they established the team, it's going to look pretty dumb if the other characters don't show up for at least one episode in their next series. 

[calliope1975]

I was overly excited when Misty got her arm cut off since I thought the bionic arm was coming when her arm was injured in Luke Cage. 

I also would have liked to see more of each show's sidekicks interacting, but I was pleased with what we got. Too bad Ward was out of town. I can just imagine his reaction to all of this. 

I'm fine with Luke and Claire, but I did like the last conversation between Jessica and Luke, and his reaction to her suggesting coffee. I still hope those crazy kids can work it out. 

Jessica was the MVP of the whole series for me. Her irritation with Danny, reconnection with Luke, and her partnership or whatever you'd call it with Matt were great. 

I wouldn't mind Madame Gao popping up again. 

[AudienceofOne]

9 hours ago, Oscirus said:

I assume the Hand bought this office knowing that it was built on top of said dragon bones,

No, the Hand bought the land and then commissioned an architecturally-designed building to cover the hole that they were trying to excavate. Why? 

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they were likely slowly digging until Alexandra found out she was dying so they set off some sort of explosions to expedite the process.

Ah, ok, that makes sense. I have no idea why an explosion like that would seem like an earthquake. That's literally not how seismology works. Also, if it did activate a fault line or something then setting off more explosives in the same place would cause an even larger earthquake so it seems like NYC was more at risk from the architect's plan. But at least I can see how that fits into the Hand's Plan. 

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Architct likely figured out a way to get through that wall, found out what they were doing and decided not to. He killed himself to make sure they couldn't use him to get through the wall.

Highly improbable. He was just an ordinary guy, not a member of the Hand and doesn't speak ancient Kun-Lunian or whatever language that was in. The architect likely found out about the hole and realised their attempts to excavate it would destabilise the city. The Hand were trying to assassinate him so he couldn't warn anyone so killing himself just gives them the win. It really made no sense. They implied the architect had some knowledge they needed but then when the plan was revealed, they already knew what they needed to know.

I doubt the architect's plan was "kill myself in front of Jessica Jones so she'll be motivated to join the fight". But that's what it boils down to.

[Oscirus]

44 minutes ago, AudienceofOne said:

Highly improbable. He was just an ordinary guy, not a member of the Hand and doesn't speak ancient Kun-Lunian or whatever language that was in. The architect likely found out about the hole and realised their attempts to excavate it would destabilise the city. The Hand were trying to assassinate him so he couldn't warn anyone so killing himself just gives them the win. It really made no sense. They implied the architect had some knowledge they needed but then when the plan was revealed, they already knew what they needed to know.

I doubt the architect's plan was "kill myself in front of Jessica Jones so she'll be motivated to join the fight". But that's what it boils down to.

The architect knew something because he told Electra that she couldn't have what was in his head before he shot himself. Only thing that makes sense is that he knew a non mystical way around the wall, hence the need for Iron Fist once the architect died.

[rozen]

It was fun to watch all these characters interact, but it felt pretty uneven.  I never got around to watching Iron Fist, so his skillset confuses me. Like, was his training left unfinished or something? There are times where just channeling the fist seems to blow everyone off their feet, but then in the cavern he was punching ninjas and they were popping right back up to keep fighting him.

Elodie Young is doing God's work making Elektra so enigmatic and captivating, because the writing for her is a straight mess. All this fuss about Black Sky, Black Sky, Black Sky, I expected her to turn into the freaking terminator. The most intimidating moment was honestly her sneaking up to stab Alexandra in the back, only because I presume that she would be baller at anticipating it due to her centuries of warding off coups from the rest of the Hand. Matt's the only person who's been truly willing to die for her, I understand why she's obsessed with him considering her shit upbringing. But I really need her to move on and find someone who will love her for her 80% unadulterated violence 20% goodwill self, instead of trying to bludgeon an equally stubborn 80% goodwill 20% unadulterated violence Matty into submission. 

If Jessica did not climb on top of that desk and tackle Malcom, I am severely disappointed with her! He got finer with every pop in appearance, for real.

[wayne67]

I'm going straight to hell...

When Misty got her arm chopped off I cheered because now she can get her upgrade

When Matt and Elektra were having their big dramatic kissy moment I was like "oh you two, just get a room already, oh wait, have an office building".

I was disappointed that Matt was shown to be alive at the end of the episode, it would have been far more satisfying if they left that open ended, wait a little longer than ten minutes to destroy the 'noble sacrifice' he made buying them time/saying goodbye to his crazy ex girlfriend. 

On other news Danny needs to buy himself a private tutor to catch him up on battle strategies and business because he sucks at both. Also he needs to read the Art of War because he's the worst ninja ever.

I really really hope Elektra is dead and Madame Gao returns and kills Karen just so I don't have to listen to her whine any more like the cliched superhero's girlfriend. 

[pivot]

This was a pretty big disappointment. As far as I am concerned, centering the show around Daredevil and Iron Fist's characters was a huge mistake. It should have been centered around the strongest actors/storylines in the universe - Jessica Jones and Luke Cage. The only tolerable character out of the DD and IF universes is Colleen. I honsestly couldn't decide which actor was worse - Iron Fist or Elektra. Whoever plays DD isn't much better. Absolute waste of Kristin and Sigorney's talents to be on this show. 

[MrWhyt]

3 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

That was a low blow- and moreso because it was a trailer for his show, which I think is next. I don't understand why they can't air all of the shows in the same year instead of years apart.??

$$ and scheduling. Netflix wants subscribers, they want subscribers to keep their subscriptions active. They don't want them to watch all the episodes and then dump their subscriptions until the next year.

[Rascotes]

Alrighty, since we seem to be rating this against the rest of the shows, I'll start there.  I thought both Daredevils and Jessica Jones were better but the Defenders series topped Luke Cage and Iron fist, which are sort of tied for my least favorite.  

I found the end to be sort of anti climactic, sadly.  I was really disappointed when the killed off Weaver without ever giving us a taste of why she so casually cowed the leaders of the Hand, plus it just felt off that they spent most of the series building her up and then she was offed almost as an afterthought and replaced by Electra.  To my mind they didn't define the Black Wind thing enough for me to see why she was suddenly more than a match for four gifted heroes.  Frankly, Electra would have worked better as a Big Bad in DD season 3 instead of this one since her story was so wrapped up with Matts.

I thought the sidekicks were pretty good, though some of them really only had bit parts.  Was bummed that we didn't see more of Foggy or Trish but was happy that we got plenty of Colleen.  Not a huge fan of Misty but I did enjoy seeing her lose the arm, given what is coming for her.  

Karen continues to be the biggest wet blanket of the entire Netflix/Marvel universe.  The only scenes I find her at all compelling in are with the Punisher so I am glad she will be featured there and hopefully she won't see much time in DD3.

Jessica is great and I like the actress as well.  She pulls it off well.  Looking forward to season two from her.

Luke was... better in this, but still kind of awkward and stiff.  I get that the actor is doing it on purpose but he needs something more to play off.  He and Danny were surprisingly amusing together, so lets hope we see both Jessica and Danny in LC2 to give Luke some personality.

Matt is clearly the alpha of the group, as it should be even though his angsty nonsense can be a little tedious in a group setting.  I get that people don't like Electra much but I personally like how she and Matt play off each other, the fact that they bring out the worst in each other is an interesting dynamic.

I feel like the writers have done a serious disservice to Danny and it makes me sad.  I don't know if it's intentional or they are just failing to pull off what they want with him but it's becoming laughable how useless he is.  The guy is supposed to be special, a hero.  We don't see any of that.  He's not smart,not charismatic and he's not even a terribly capable fighter.  If you want the audience to get behind him, you have to actually make him exceptional or at the very least good at something.  Please do better in IF 2.  

 

All in all I give the Defenders about a B.  It had great fighting scenes, good interplay between the leads and a plot that, despite an awkward and slow start, kept me invested.  Really looking forward to The Punisher now.

[AudienceofOne]

38 minutes ago, Rascotes said:

 I get that people don't like Electra much but I personally like how she and Matt play off each other, the fact that they bring out the worst in each other is an interesting dynamic.

That implies that Elektra has a personality. She doesn't. She's nothing. It's not just that she's poorly characterised - she isn't characterised at all. I still have no idea who she is or why she does anything. Her behaviour throughout most of this was inexplicable because she's a cardboard cutout. This is a really big problem in comic book adaptations because most female characters are barely drawn in other than "she's hot" and "she's dangerous" and "we love nun/whore dichotomies". But Elektra is the worst example of it. The worst.

I've been watching a lot of Kdrama lately instead of US shows for exactly this reason. Say what you want about Korean TV, they know how to characterise. It's quite frustrating coming back to an English language show.

[arjumand]

3 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

That implies that Elektra has a personality. She doesn't. She's nothing. It's not just that she's poorly characterised - she isn't characterised at all . . . Her behaviour throughout most of this was inexplicable because she's a cardboard cutout. This is a really big problem in comic book adaptations because most female characters are barely drawn in other than "she's hot" and "she's dangerous" and "we love nun/whore dichotomies". But Elektra is the worst example of it. The worst.

That's exactly what I felt about Elektra; also, she bored me in DD2, and she bored me in the Defenders.

Quote

I still have no idea who she is or why she does anything.

You've pinpointed exactly what my reaction was to her, especially after she killed Alexandra. There I was, thinking, well that's a good power play. Good move. And then she's all: "I'm in charge! Let's go on with the plan!" And my reaction is WHAT??? And she's smearing the blood spray, like she's a zombie now and she likes it, and I don't know what the fuck is going on.

She wants the immortality juice, but why? You understand the others - Alexandra was dying, Gao was as old as dirt, and the other two were always doing risky shit. But no-one could even get close to her.

And she's the Hand now? They killed her, resurrected her as a killing machine, turned her against her friend(s), but that's ok because reasons? But she's still going to kill Alexandra because ???

If Matt survived, I'm sure she survived too. Sigh.

[millennium]

Wow.   A dreadful ending to a dreary series.

THIS is how four individual series over what?  two or three years? culminated?

The hiphop soundtrack over the final fight jerked me right the hell out of it.   So mismatched, no cohesiveness between sight and sound, so disruptive as you're trying to follow what's going on and some guys are  yammering about Schwarzenegger ...

I also lost count as to how many times a character said, "You don't have to do this ..." in the last few episodes.

Unpopular opinion, I guess, but IMHO The Defenders royally sucks. .

[pootlus]

2 hours ago, arjumand said:

If Matt survived, I'm sure she survived too. Sigh.

I was freaking livid that Matt died trying to redeem Elektra of all people that I was too angry to give a crap when the building was collapsing around them. Then that scene with Karen and Foggy waiting for him to walk in the door almost killed me. Then he's alive, and I had a microsecond of 'yay' before I realised that most likely Elektra is also alive.  If she's around for DD S3 I'm out.  Horrid character, shitty writing and a terrible performance.

Luke on the other hand was redeemed for me. Maybe it was the exasperated big brother/little brother thing he had going on with Danny, maybe it was his sense of humour - more quippy, sarcastic Luke please. Coulter does that well.

Jessica was MVP of the show though - would love to see her interact more with Matt.

[clack]

That extended hand-to-hand combat climactic scene was silly. The Hand have mastered high-end financial power plays in a computerized economy, but it seems that the invention of the gun has passed them by. Why aren't all Hand minions armed?

And the Black Sky/Electra resurrection made no sense in the end. Madame Gao had more powers. Black Sky was good with a sword, was proficient in hand-to-hand -- I could see that she would be useful as a ninja assasin. But as this great, legendary strategic asset that was worth risking all to acquire? Ridiculous.

[SimoneS]

This was okay. I had only watched Jessica Jones and Luke Cage before. I was not impressed with either Daredevil or IronFist. Daredevil's fighting style is laughable. I had to laugh when Slink said that he was the most natural fighter that he ever encountered. He wastes so much energy with the turns and flips that I am surprised that he has any energy left to win any fights. Finn Jones is such a weak actor. Marvel should be embarrassed about casting him in the role. Same with the actress who played Electra. She was just bad.

The fight scenes were way too long. They felt never ending and got boring after a while. I would have preferred that airtime go to the supporting cast which was strong, yet wasted. It would have good to see them mixing and teaming up to get info to help the heroes. Misty is such a fun character. She can do more beyond giving safe haven to the heroes' loved ones. Hopefully, she gets her own show now that she is getting a bionic arm. It annoys me to see a talented actress like Deborah Ann Woll playing the boring unrequited love interest. She should be playing a superhero and kicking butt.

I thought this was the strongest cast of villains in any Marvel vehicle. They were menacing without being comical. I will miss them all.

Edited August 20, 2017 by SimoneS

[Ottis]

There are a lot of elevators on this show. When your heroes have to take an elevator to the bad guys, that's less than suspenseful. 

"The epicenter of everything." Ugh. 

How can Luke know that no innocents will enter the building? Making that a condition is pointless, aside to have his character say something in character.

Luke's big idea in the elevator was to hide for a minute? Deep. And Jessica didn't like it because.... she had to talk?

These big fight scenes are silly. It's like the 60s Batman. Can we get to more intimate, meaningful fighting? Matt and Elektra's fight was better. 

So Danny can now keep the Iron Fist lit up for 10 minutes?

Jessica  suddenly is a team player and doesn't want to leave Matt?

Elektra's accent is bizarre. Sometimes English, sometimes Hispanic. 

The way the team came together was pretty well done. Everything about the plot and bad guys was not. The threat from the bad guys was vague and honestly, if they had won, what would have been the difference? Aside from "NY will fall?" What does that even mean? Sigourney Weaver was wasted and wasn't interesting nor threatening. I miss the moral interplay of The Kingpen vs. DD, and two different ways to make Hell's Kitchen better. Give us some of that instead of ninjas and moustache twirling. 

Edited August 20, 2017 by Ottis

[Helena Dax]

1 hour ago, millennium said:

 

The hiphop soundtrack over the final fight jerked me right the hell out of it.  

I didn't like it either. 

But it was a great final fight. I like the idea of Danny taking care of NY for Matt, and the final and friendly conversation between Jessica and Luke. The show wasn't perfect but it did an amazing and fun job with the relationships between the heroes: the four of them really worked very well together. I'm totally in for the next ride. 

[Sakura12]

This show was ok, it wasn't amazing but it had it's moments that I liked. I do hope we can see more of Jessica and Matt on each others shows. They do have jobs that could make them cross paths besides just fighting crime.

I'm thinking they should combine Luke Cage and Iron Fist into one show, because Iron Fist on his own doesn't work. He played well off Luke Cage despite still being a dumbass.  He needs protectors to stay alive. The Hand's super weapon is a much better fighter then K'un Lun's super weapon and she didn't get a magical glowing fist. Which is still such a stupid power especially since it doesn't work all the time. And I really hope they don't follow the comics with Misty Knight because there is no way I could see this version of Misty going anywhere near this version of Danny. Colleen is a good fit for him. 

[clack]

Ninjas are fucking boring. Small, black-clad masked men with their stupid karate chops and ineffectual kicks, and who are mere cannon-fodder for 110-pound actresses.

[Teitr Styrr]

Well, I enjoyed it just fine. I don't complain about much of anything really, so it kinda feels like a complaint to say "just fine". Coulda been better I guess. The MVPs are the ladies, Jessica Jones, Elektra, Madame Gao, Collen Wing, Claire, Misty Knight and Alexandra. Jessica Jones was my favorite overall. It probably helps that I like her current run in the comics too.

I've had enough of ninjas and hydras for awhile. Give us something else please.

[bettername2come]

11 minutes ago, Teitr Styrr said:

I've had enough of ninjas and hydras for awhile. Give us something else please.

I'm realizing The Hand is what made me rank Iron Fist and Daredevil season 2 as my least favorites. If Defenders gets a second season, I'd prefer evil scientists/mutates.

[RachelKM]

Goddammit!  Foggy Nelson is the only character in this damn show who can make me cry.  EVERY. DAMN. TIME. 

[Oscirus]

Another big disappointment is that you started this series with five major hand members and Electra more than enough to give each defender a boss battle even if you account for one being lost to Colleen. Instead, we got that mish mash fight at the bottom.  Also why does their skill sets overlap so much. It might work in the comics, but it's fairly annoying here.

Edited August 20, 2017 by Oscirus

[clack]

Remember when comic book writers who didn't understand radiation thought that radiation might be presented as magical, and that being exposed to gamma rays or being bit by a radioactive spider might plausibly give you superpowers? 

Or, 20 years on, when movie scriptwriters thought that those new-fangled computers were like magic, and that a sudden power surge could make a computer give birth to a real, three-dimensional woman? (Weird Science).

That's the way that current scriptwriters view Eastern martial arts. A tiny woman, with enough training, can whip dozens of highly skilled fighters swarming around her, because Kung Fu is magic!

Kung Fu and martial arts in general are no more effective than boxing. Imagine how stupid it would look if Electra were to be swarmed by a dozen men and went into a boxing pose. 

Part of the problem is that it was never made clear what exactly were Electra/Black Sky's powers. Was she just good at  martial arts? Or did she have superhuman strength, agility, resilience, and speed? 

[kieyra]

Hmm, I was already pretty meh on this even before I came to the thread and realized how little actual  substantive plot there was behind "big hole in ground".

I wish they hadn't leaned so hard into Elektra/Matt. Didn't that dynamic get a less than favorable reaction in DD? I also feel like I've seen that whole thing played out via the Resurrection Pits on CW about four thousand times now. 

(I will say, though, that I don't think the problem is the actress. I think any actress would be insufferable with that material, and I believe she is acting as directed to.)

The final brawl scenes were so fucking long and boring, and yes, the rap music cue was weird because it seemed like it should bookend a big LC showcase, but didn't. Just came out of nowhere and wasn't particularly impactful.

I don't know anything about what makes directing "good" or "bad", but for a lot of this show I had the annoying sense of the camera/POV not being where I wanted it to be. 

I didn't feel like I had any particular understanding of why Matt chose to stay and die.

I didn't know anything about Misty Knight from the comics, but when she got her arm chopped off I yelled "robot arm!", so ... nailed it I guess?

[MrWhyt]

10 minutes ago, clack said:

A tiny woman, with enough training, can whip dozens of highly skilled fighters swarming around her, because Kung Fu is magic!

it's not a documentary

[kieyra]

Just now, MrWhyt said:

it's not a documentary

Yeah, to watch comic book shows I think you have to accept the conceits that 1) no one has guns when they should and 2) the biggest badass in the room at any given time is driven solely by plot, not physics.

[MisterGlass]

My reaction to this series is mixed leaning toward positive.  I enjoyed Jessica Jones and I enjoyed Matt Murdock while he was interacting with her.  I would have liked them to have more time being investigators together.  Luke Cage was fine, and a little more fun than he was on his own show.  I liked that so many of the supporting characters from the other shows got to be in this, and even Carrie-Anne Moss got to have a cameo.  I thought the level of interaction made sense because most of them didn't know each other before showing up at the police station.  I liked Karen and Trish interacting.  I was really interested to see that the coloring and transition styles followed the characters from their own shows into this one.  I could almost always tell who the show was cutting to based on the transition style.

I did not watch Iron Fist, and this did not inspire me to go back to it.  He may have been sincere but he is not bright and not that interesting on his own.  There is nothing about this character that says disciplined warrior raised by monks.  Elektra's plan to trick him into punching that wall was so obvious.  And speaking of Elektra.  Ugh.  As others have commented she doesn't seem to have a personality other than kill stuff and seduce Matt.  She was my least favorite part of DDs2, and my least favorite part of this, and I would be happy if she never appeared again.  I agree Sigourney Weaver was under used.

I'm a little more supportive of Karen Page when she is acting as her own character and investigating things.  I don't like her as Matt's conscience or vigilante sober companion.  He did get lost in heroing in DDs2 and was neglecting his primary life. I get why she and Foggy are worried about him doing it again.  She should stay a friend if she can't be reconciled to his second life, and there is no shame in not wanting someone with Matt's obsessions as a romantic partner.

I would be okay with it if Madam Gao pulled herself up out of that hole.  I'm glad they didn't drag out the reveal that Matt's alive - but I'll admit they had me going.

I love Malcolm plastering bullet holes at the end.  He may end up my favorite sidekick.

[pootlus]

Another thing that bothered me, but it's not unique to the Defenders - why were all the scenes in the pit so damn dark? I was semi-tuned out because all I could see were a lot of bodies moving around.

I realise it's dark in real life, Mr/Ms Director, but that doesn't mean you can't give the impression of darkness without actually having everything too gloomy to make out.

[Bec]

I was kind of hoping Karen would be more pro-Daredevil. Back when she and Foggy didn't know who was behind the mask, Foggy thought Daredevil was bad, but Karen would argue that he's good. It would have been good to have more of that dynamic come back. Instead we got two people vying for the role of "nagging wife of the hero".

I'm not sure why Elektra did most of the things she did in this show. Her DD2 characterization wasn't this ambiguous. Her childhood of being treated like a monster that everyone wanted to kill made her a ruthless killer. Being raised by Stick didn't help. Matt swayed her over to the good side by caring about her and believing she can be good. That all flowed well enough in DD2. Whether all of that is believable might be debatable, but at least the logic behind it was clearly laid out for us.

Okay, I'll try to sum up Elektra's story in The Defenders... she was Alexandra's lackey because Alexandra was all she knew. Then she started to remember Matt, and she's conflicted between loyalties to Alexandra and Matt, not sure which one is for real and which one is trying to trick her. Then Alexandra told her the secret to eternal life and Elektra was like "screw it, I'll take all this substance stuff for myself and live forever! I'll kill everyone who gets in my way!" Then instead of trying to escape like everyone else, Elektra decided to get buried under a building and take Matt down with her. Whaaat?

Did she know staying in that hole would somehow keep them alive? That might be the only way this makes sense.

They did at least bothered to have Madam Gao explain to us that Alexandra was important because she was the one who forged relationships with the rich and powerful around the world and kept The Hand looking like a business that's running on the up-and-up. Even if part of The Hand survived (probably did, they're like cockroaches), they're going to be missing a whole bunch of their wealth and power after this.