S13.E11: Week 10: The Final Rose / S13.E12: After the Final Rose

[NeverLate]

47 minutes ago, Village said:

I agree with that for sure. There's a lot of IMO undeserved negativity towards her and the Bryan choice though which I think is a shame.

I think we all have an opinion on who she should have chosen and why. I'm very protective of my man. I can say what I want, and I do. But if anyone slights him, I have his back and he has mine. I didn't like the last bachelor, they didnt know where they were going to live, only that he wasn't moving. In every relationship there is give and take, good and bad. I hope they all find their happy, life is too darned short! :)

1 hour ago, coconutcookie said:

Eric is nice looking and has a cute personality.  He seemed like a lot more fun than either Peter or Bryan.  But I could not see the young lawyer, daughter of a judge, marrying the personal trainer, half of whose relatives had been in prison.   It wasn't a good fit.

I love Eric, but I got a brother/sister vibe with them. Its nice he's still friends with Bryan...

[bantering]

53 minutes ago, KenyaJ said:

I'm a black, female lawyer (and Rachel and I are sorors), so I'm certainly not trying to "angry black woman" her. But right after Peter apologized to her, her attitude got super frosty. It reminded me of her reaction to her family when they were skeptical of Bryan. Coincidentally, that reaction was what convinced me she would pick Bryan in the end, so I was really surprised by both her reaction to Peter not being ready to propose and her ATFR reaction to him. I don't understand still being that upset with someone when you're happily engaged to someone else. Let it go and go polish your ring, girl.

I guess I can understand describing her as frosty or slightly icy. But angry, I don't get. I feel frosty is a different kind of descriptor from angry.  When I think of angry, I think of Deanna from several seasons ago.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by bantering

[judie]

My take was, is, and always will be that Peter was the one Rachel really wanted. In my mind there's no way she would fight so long for a proposal from Peter if she was in love with Bryan the entire time, as has been alleged. But what's done is done. I wish Rachel nothing but the best. She was a fantastic Bachelorette.

[Padma]

4 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

In real life, ita. But if I'm going on a show looking for a husband and 25 guys sign up to audition to be my husband, I'm gonna expect that those who are serious and who stay on the show and take me to meet their families will propose.

Where I fault Rachel is keeping Peter on the show. He wasn't honest enough to take himself out of the running (apparently that has happened before) and he wanted Rachel, who was always clear about her expectations, to be willing to settle for less than what she came for. I think she should have tossed Peter weeks ago, and I do think she pressured him, but I also don't get the entitlement talk. If only more women were strong enough to decide what they want and not settle. But as they say, everybody ain't able.

I guess I'm with Peter in the sense that I wouldn't do something like propose marriage (or accept a proposal) that I wouldn't do in real life. And there's no way I would expect to find someone to actually commit to marriage with in this timeframe and with dating all these men. It could happen (like Trista and Ryan, which I totally believed) but that would shock me, as a contestant. It would never be something I would expect. Just my opinoion, but it would seem too weird to find a deep lifelong commitment on a show like this!  (Even though, yes, we've seen it happen.) I'd actually consider coming out of it with a real "we're serious" relationship that lasts a year to be a huge success. (One of many reasons I would never be chosen for this show!)

That said, I agree completely with you that Rachel's not thinking like I do. She knows what she wants and didn't want. Peter was frank about what he wanted and didn't want--and it was clear they were miles apart. He was honest. She might have wanted more of him but you can't force it and she's not entitled to HAVE what she wants from him, so I don't get the angry.  I guess he could have withdrawn, but then you look bad (and will never be TB) so I think he just tried to make it clear that, by her standards, he just wasn't that into her.

If she really preferred him, she either should have gone like Brad and chosen no one. Or agreed to date, maybe to "go steady". But clearly they weren't suited for each other. I think Peter dodged the bullet, but in terms of Rachel's needs, he was wrong for her (obviously) so she should have been glad to know it.  

[dirtypop90]

I feel like a lot people have ignored the things rachel has said about her past relationships and even the tidbit about her going to therapy. I don't think peter was rachel's first pick. I think Bryan was always number one. She loved the attention and affection he gave her. The way she snapped at her family over bryan let me know she wanted him. I believe Bryan treats her in a way no man has (and I do think Bryan is actually into her). She has Peters in her past. Men telling her she is great yadda yadda but really dont see a future with her and just plan to waste her time, who were just overall bad for her self esteem. I believe Rachel is used to dysfunctional relationships which is why she wouldn't let peter go.  Rachel clearly has some past relationship trauma a bunch of insecurities with men IMO. Rachel and Bryan may not last but their relationship is far more healthy than her relationship with Peter. Peter would've sent her back to therapy. IMO

[thehepburn]

It seemed like it was Bryan from very early on so I was surprised at the bitchyness from Rachel in AFTR. If she is truly happy - and I am sure she is still jumping from joy looking at her bigass ring as she was during the proposal - then what's with the salt? It reminded me of Andi's bitchyness in her AFTR. Ah, these lawyer Bachelorettes in love with their douchebags. Same ole, same ole.

Edited August 8, 2017 by thehepburn

[Ivana Tinkle]

Rachel's lashes were on the floor for two days??  What kind of shit cleaning crew did they have there?  Gross.

[judie]

In other news, Bryan is already hawking merch via Instagram. Is this a new record?

[comosedice]

7 minutes ago, dirtypop90 said:

I feel like a lot people have ignored the things rachel has said about her past relationships and even the tidbit about her going to therapy. I don't think peter was rachel's first pick. I think Bryan was always number one. She loved the attention and affection he gave her. The way she snapped at her family over bryan let me know she wanted him. I believe Bryan treats her in a way no man has (and I do think Bryan is actually into her). She has Peters in her past. Men telling her she is great yadda yadda but really dont see a future with her and just plan to waste her time, who were just overall bad for her self esteem. I believe Rachel is used to dysfunctional relationships which is why she wouldn't let peter go.  Rachel clearly has some past relationship trauma a bunch of insecurities with men IMO. Rachel and Bryan may not last but their relationship is far more healthy than her relationship with Peter. Peter would've sent her back to therapy. IMO

How do you know Bryan isn't the type of guy she usually dates? She has said nothing to make us not think this.

[MBJ]

45 minutes ago, ridethemaverick said:

In real life, ita. But if I'm going on a show looking for a husband and 25 guys sign up to audition to be my husband, I'm gonna expect that those who are serious and who stay on the show and take me to meet their families will propose.

Do the contestants have any idea who the Bachelorette is before they sign up?

Maybe Peter signed up with some intention to 'look for love' but wasn't ready to marry Rachel.  I understand Rachel being angry at the situation more than him.  I guess , the more that I think about it, I get her  "anger"; I was just so uncomfortable at watching it all play out.  It felt so private between the two of them, that's why I felt like it was a charade until the end when I realized they weren't tricking me for some big reveal.  How long ago did Peter "dump" her?  Months?  It was pretty powerful to see her still so very very affected.

I understand that some didn't see any 'chilliness' or 'anger' from Rachel, but the emotions that played out (as I said before) gave me such a visceral reaction.  My stomach was turning, which is something that happens to me in heavy emotional situations. Just my personal reaction to what I was seeing.  I thought the entire episode about Peter and Rachel was incredibly emotional.  I still don't really "get" how Peter felt about her but it was clear how Rachel felt.  And then to watch that 'happy engagement'/re-engagement after, wow.  Whiplash.

I have only watched two other seasons but it was a very unique difference to the other seasons I watched where Kaitlyn and Jojo were just ending things with everyone else as detached formality.  Just an interesting observation.

Edited August 8, 2017 by Ms Blue Jay

[dirtypop90]

4 minutes ago, comosedice said:

How do you know Bryan isn't the type of guy she usually dates? She has said nothing to make us not think this.

Yes, she has. She said she typically runs from the guy she chose, that she feels is too good to be true and has it all together.  She's said it in her blog and in multiple interviews. She's used to struggle relationships.

She also told Bryan on the show she doesn't believe when good things happen to her in love/relationships.  She's made other similar statements that made me think she's not used to being adored by men.

4 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Do the contestants have any idea who the Bachelorette is before they sign up?

Some sign up before and some after. But they can decline the offer after finding out.

Edited August 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[comosedice]

5 minutes ago, judie said:

In other news, Bryan is already hawking merch via Instagram. Is this a new record?

This is too funny. I do believe this is a record.

[dirtypop90]

11 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

Do the contestants have any idea who the Bachelorette is before they sign up?

Maybe Peter signed up with some intention to 'look for love' but wasn't ready to marry Rachel.  I understand Rachel being angry at the situation more than him.  I guess , the more that I think about it, I get her  "anger"; I was just so uncomfortable at watching it all play out.  It felt so private between the two of them, that's why I felt like it was a charade until the end when I realized they weren't tricking me for some big reveal.  How long ago did Peter "dump" her?  Months?  It was pretty powerful to see her still so very very affected.

I truly believe she is "triggered" by him.  I believed her when she said Peter reminded her of her past relationships. I'm now curious to know why she was in therapy. I've been assuming it was because of her past relationships but can't remember if she actually stated that.

This may or may not be related but fred said during an interview that he had a confrontational talk with rachel at the ATFR after-party and and he said she really was upset with him being on the show because she did not want to see anyone from her past.  That also made me raise an eyebrow. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by dirtypop90

[Workslame]

I've never been so angry after a season of this show and I KNEW the outcome! 

I agree with everyone who doesn't get her bitchiness at Peter with the "living my best life comment" and not understanding how he feels attacked. I told my husband if you are living your best life why are you mad at his comments? Because maybe he's right? 

I give it a year only because she has prove everyone wrong. Maybe her and Nick will get together when him and Vanessa breakup. Has that every happened?

[Miss Slay]

I think Rachel had questions about Peter's push and pull all season. On one hand,he was telling her about envisioning a life together and on the other, he was saying he wasn't positive if she was the one. Rachel was so confused. But when she watched it back on TV, it's quite clear, that Peter was gunning for the Bachelor position. As Rachel says, she hates to be played. I believe that's where her frustration was coming from.

[Mooncake76]

Now I'm even more convinced Rachel and Eric had an honest discussion about where he stood in her affections. Neither of them seemed that emotional about his departure - because they both knew it was coming. Contrast that with her outpouring of emotions when she sent Matt home. I'm still annoyed that they didn't show us more of their interactions because her reaction felt like it came out of nowhere.  There had to be something deeper between them and I believe her when she said that in a different setting, things could have been different for them.

Tonight was the most emotion I've seen from Peter and it made me wonder if he really did have deeper feelings for her. But the cynical part of me can't get over the idea that he just wants The Bacheor gig.

Speaking of which, I absolutely think Rachel attempted to sabotage his chance of being the next bachelor by pointing out that this show isn't the right place for him to find love given his preference for taking things slow. Which on the one hand is kinda a bitchy thing to do, but on the other hand, I really don't want to see him as the next Bachelor so I was more than happy to have her repeat it a few times. 

Despite not  liking Bryan initially, I did feel bad for him in the end because I actually do believe his feelings are genuine. Or as genuine as they could be in a situation like this. He strikes me as the type of person who falls "in love" quickly, but on the flip side, can lose interest just as quickly. But when he's "in love", he's the sweep-you-off-your-feet guy. Not my thing but I can see why that is appealing to Rachel, especially in this particular situation. 

I've never watched BIP and was kind of considering giving it a shot this season because of Dean, but that promo turned me off to it. Is it always that trashy? Why Dean??

Edited August 8, 2017 by Mooncake76

[JenE4]

1 hour ago, Mooncake76 said:

 

I've never watched BIP and was kind of considering giving it a shot this season because of Dean, but that promo turned me off to it. Is it always that trashy? Why Dean??

Yes. In fact, that promo didn't seem trashy enough! But the beauty of the show is inherent in its trashiness. It's also really funny because they edit it in a way in which the show makes fun of itself. It's really an homage to the Wrong Reasons viewer, so if you're all Right Reasons, then the show might not be for you. However, every season has had a marriage (plus a couple of additional failed engagements), so there is some Love Journey stuff thrown in there.

[LennieBriscoe]

Peter neither removed himself nor was removed by Rachel because---are you sitting down?---"The Bachelor." AKA, Producer's Prerogative. 

There was no possible way Peter could take the chance of an accepted proposal and forfeiture of a future paying TV gig.  

Most significantly, he didn't and doesn't love Rachel! She kept pretending not to get this,  but she really did; that's why her anger,  tears,  and smart-alecness. She was being quite publicly  REJECTED.  

Does Bryan love Rachel? For now. He is swept up in the "Ain't it ROMANTIC?!" cloud,  complete with attractive  (to him) woman,  fabulous (free) ring,  foreign landscapes, magazine covers,  and applauding television audiences. Wheee! 

Can "Dancing With the Stars" be far behind? ?

[Suzysite]

5 hours ago, Padma said:

 No one owes it to you to fall in love with you, especially on your timetable.

No one owes you a proposal.

In real life, I 100% agree.   But these people went on a well-known dating show with a short time frame and an expected engagement at the end.   If Peter wanted a one-time, forever engagement in life then this definitely was not a show he should have signed up for.     He knew what was expected, so his sudden reluctance to play along at the end just tells me he didn't want to be engaged to Rachel.  

[adhoc]

While I don't think Rachel did herself any favors in the way she came across last night , I also think there are multiple factors that probably played into her behavior--Rachel's knowledge that Peter was gunning to be The Bachelor (I believe Reality Steve said he was one of the men in talks with TPTB and likely the front runner, it was pretty much out there by last night's live show) while spouting off to her face how he could not propose in such a short time; Rachel's anger that Peter had not been willing to "play the game", follow the script, and propose; Rachel's sense that he was treating her a lot like she had been treated in past relationships; and so on.  Whatever.

She does seem to have an ego on her, though, doesn't she?

Quote

"I'm sorry, it's late, and I can't count all the negatives to figure out what it means to NOT DENY that you DON'T love someone. "   

Haha, so true!

So, they might live in Dallas or L.A. or Miami, she said.  Wait a minute. Los Angeles? Well, well. I think this confirms (for me, anyway) Rachel is angling for a new career. Heck, maybe they both are.

[NeverLate]

30 minutes ago, Suzysite said:

In real life, I 100% agree.   But these people went on a well-known dating show with a short time frame and an expected engagement at the end.   If Peter wanted a one-time, forever engagement in life then this definitely was not a show he should have signed up for.     He knew what was expected, so his sudden reluctance to play along at the end just tells me he didn't want to be engaged to Rachel.  

He is someone that is selfish or stingy with his love, and the conditions are all his. This is why it didnt work out with his ex. I thought he was good looking, but he's not. I think she's lucky to have Bryan, he just wants to love her and take away any hurts. Much like Des and Chris, after she broke up with her leading man, his name escapes me.

[fib]

Rachels's people blog is up. 

http://people.com/tv/bachelorette-why-rachel-lindsay-didnt-choose-runner-up/?utm_campaign=peoplemagazine&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_peoplemag

Quote

When I walked into Peter’s hotel room at the very end, I knew that I was going to send Peter home,” Lindsay, 32, tells PEOPLE in this week’s issue. “At that point, I knew it was Bryan. I did not want Peter to come to the proposal, pick out a suit, pick out a ring, prepare what he was going to say just to get turned down.

Sure Rachel, then why were you so frosty last night. And why are you shitting on Peter on twitter right now? Oh, I know.  Because you chose to decide Peter was like your ex and you wanted to be right more than you wanted him. Youre pissed your season isnt being portrayed as a perfect love story.  Youre pissed that viewers figured out that you want a proposal from him more than you wanted him, because when he offered to give you what you wanted, you were upset that it wasnt going to happen the way you wanted it. When all along you only really wanted Bryan.

No lead ever comes out smelling like roses, and i think Rachel is feeling that tide of the public turning against her a bit.  I wish she had gotten a PR person, because agreeing to the live show? That was a poor PR choice. 

Lastly, Chris Harrison sucks at interviewing. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by fib

[b2H]

8 hours ago, bantering said:

I thought the "I'm living my best life" comment was fine. I don't get what's so offensive about it. She didn't throw a dis at him -- she simply contradicted the "mediocre life" comment.

For me, it wasn't what she said, it was how she said it.  I took her delivery as snippy and bitchy and this was after Peter had apologized multiple times.  I took his apologies as sincere and heartfelt and her response-method was inappropriate.  She could have delivered exactly the same message by saying that she was happy and (then, as she said) wished only happiness for him.  It's the problem with a live show.  If Rachel ever gets to see a playback, I think she would have wished to just have communicated the sentiment a bit differently.  Peter sure wished he had a do-over with the mediocre life comment.

[b2H]

8 hours ago, lightbeam said:

That was really depressing. 

There was no way Rachel could accept Peter's luke warm "hey, let's date after the show...maybe there is a future when I'm 100% certain." She would have been the only Bachelorette to not be proposed to - not only that, but as the first black bachelorette, the pressure must have been enormous. My heart truly hurt for her.

Interesting people are willing to give Peter a break, but Juan Pablo and what his face (dude that was on the show twice - blanking on his name) got raked through the coals for not proposing. If Peter becomes the next Bachelor and proposes to someone, my head will explode in sympathy for Rachel. 

I wish they edited this differently. It was just painful to watch.

It's tough to compare Peter and Juan Pablo.  Juan Pablo was an instantly dislike-able individual for a multitude of reasons that were capped with his inability to propose to anyone.

I absolutely agree with Rachel that Peter is in the wrong venue to find his wife-to-be.  Having personally been through marriage a couple of times, this is a decision that shouldn't be rushed.  I actually agree with Peter that time should be taken to ensure that the partner you have is the one you really want.  It's a major life decision that should be taken with great care.  The Bachelor franchise has not been wildly successful with long-term marriages - one can count the number of successful marriages on one hand that actually resulted from the show.  I truly hope that, if offered, Peter runs in the opposite direction from being the next candidate.  I really like the guy, but this is definitely the wrong spot for him.

[mtlchick]

Above all, I'm sad we didn't get to hear from Copper.  I'm pretty sure the pooch has ALLLL the goods on this. 

[fib]

2 minutes ago, b2H said:

It's tough to compare Peter and Juan Pablo.  Juan Pablo was an instantly dislike-able individual for a multitude of reasons that were capped with his inability to propose to anyone

Second!  Juan Pablo slut shamed Claire, was vapid, and self centered.  Peter never stooped that low or even close. Generally he was thoughtful, respectful, and contrite when in the heat of a breakup, he wasnt. Ymmv. 

[DEL901]

1 hour ago, Suzysite said:

In real life, I 100% agree.   But these people went on a well-known dating show with a short time frame and an expected engagement at the end.   If Peter wanted a one-time, forever engagement in life then this definitely was not a show he should have signed up for.     He knew what was expected, so his sudden reluctance to play along at the end just tells me he didn't want to be engaged to Rachel.  

So much this!

And I so did not believe Rachel's retcon'd history that it was not going to be Peter.  She wouldn't have been so upset if this was true.

Also, Chris Harrison's "one of these men will leave Spain forever" just killed me.  I know he does that every season, but it always sounds to me like he'll be deported and never allowed into the country again.

Edited August 8, 2017 by DEL901

[Chick2Chic]

The Daily Beast has a good write-up on the finale with, IMO, some solid points.

Kudos to him bringing up Unreal S2 in regard to Rachel's season.

That merchandise hawking is... a bad look, but obviously mileage varies. 

[sioux21]

Wasn't Peter the one whose high school yearbook listed getting on The Bachelor as his goal in life? I think his presence on the show was meant as a ruse, a crossing-it-off-the-list opportunity.

[nlkm9]

9 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

Peter was playing her for the Bachelor role and has been shading her fiance on SM since she dropped him.  And his little smug comment,  "i hope you have mediocre life" like...who tf is Peter? what kinda life does he have to offer a woman? the delusions

I took it as "you are not picking me because i wont propose, so you are picking your second choice" (sort of like desi and chris) which would generally be settling just to get a ring. lucky it worked out for desi and chris

[JudyObscure]

Thanks to the last two episodes I now know the exact number of minutes  that I can tolerate watching a dead horse being beaten.  I turned off the TV at 10:17 and went to bed.  Whether it's 42 minutes of trying to get a little redneck to say the words, 'I am a racist," or 42 minutes of trying to get a man to say, "I'm so sorry I can't/didn't propose, "  it was painful and I was exhausted.

I do think Peter would be an interesting Bachelor.  The women would be fighting hard for him and I think the right one could get a quick proposal from him, he would just be quickly certain that it would be his one and only proposal, ever.  I just pity that girl, whoever she may be, because she'll have to live up to a lot of very high expectations and never get to have a mediocre evening at home watching trashy reality TV.   Although I did think "wine and painting," night sounded fun, at least until the "eyelashes on the floor," comment made me understand that it wouldn't be Peter cleaning up the painting mess the next morning.

Eric, you handsome, bearded man, you!  I owe you a big apology.  I made fun of the way he talked in the beginning, particularly all the big words that seemed slightly misused beyond their intended purpose, but last night, I started to get into that and see it as a sort of poetic license in Eric that is all his own.  When he told Rachel he had been missing the "entirety," of her I swooned a little bit.

I've been on team Bryan from the start, I see the radiant joy in him when he's with her and I think they might have a good chance. They make a dazzling couple.  Good luck to them.

[nlkm9]

7 hours ago, judie said:

In other news, Bryan is already hawking merch via Instagram. Is this a new record?

I just looked--who are these people? dorinda?? maybe because im not on instagram??

6 hours ago, Workslame said:

I've never been so angry after a season of this show and I KNEW the outcome! 

I agree with everyone who doesn't get her bitchiness at Peter with the "living my best life comment" and not understanding how he feels attacked. I told my husband if you are living your best life why are you mad at his comments? Because maybe he's right? 

I give it a year only because she has prove everyone wrong. Maybe her and Nick will get together when him and Vanessa breakup. Has that every happened?

I cant beleive I know this, but after the prince of dog food finale, he did go back and date one of the final 3. and of course Jason <yuk>

[Bobcatkitten]

Wow. That was awful.

If Rachel and Bryan actually do have a real love then the producers did them a disservice with both the edit and how the finale went; breaking it up to see Rachel and Peter still so raw with emotion with each other absolutely tore up any chance at a feel-good ending. 

And all this about Rachel being so different went out the window with her absolute obsession over a ring. "Give it to me." Yikes. 

I thought it was telling that Chris didn't ask any questions about Peter when Bryan and Rachel were out there. That is a very normal part of the conversation usually for the winning couple and they didn't even throw a softball on it.

[nlkm9]

watching this show made me wonder if meredith had insisted on Ian proposing to her, or if Sara insisted on Charlie, there is something about the concept "expiration dating"lol.

My issue is that of she wrung the proposal out of Peter, I think she still would have picked bryan, and that would suck:(

[NeverLate]

10 hours ago, phlebas said:

Run, Peter. Run far, run fast. You dodged a bullet, don't press your luck. Find a woman willing to date exclusively for at least a month before getting married. I'm sure Wisconsin has some, even if they have blocks of cheese on their heads.

Its Peter, they'd have to date his timeline and you still never meet his family! LOL.

[LilJen]

1 hour ago, fib said:

Rachels's people blog is up. 

http://people.com/tv/bachelorette-why-rachel-lindsay-didnt-choose-runner-up/?utm_campaign=peoplemagazine&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social&xid=socialflow_twitter_peoplemag

Sure Rachel, then why were you so frosty last night. And why are you shitting on Peter on twitter right now? Oh, I know.  Because you chose to decide Peter was like your ex and you wanted to be right more than you wanted him. Youre pissed your season isnt being portrayed as a perfect love story.  Youre pissed that viewers figured out that you want a proposal from him more than you wanted him, because when he offered to give you what you wanted, you were upset that it wasnt going to happen the way you wanted it. When all along you only really wanted Bryan.

No lead ever comes out smelling like roses, and i think Rachel is feeling that tide of the public turning against her a bit.  I wish she had gotten a PR person, because agreeing to the live show? That was a poor PR choice. 

Lastly, Chris Harrison sucks at interviewing. 

Loving the People blog. Headline: "Why Rachel Lindsay Didn't Choose Bachelorette Runner-Up Peter Kraus: 'I Just Knew He Wasn't the One for Me'". First words in article: "SPOILER WARNING: If you haven’t seen Monday’s season finale of The Bachelorette, heads up that the outcome will be revealed in this article." Um. . . because the reader couldn't figure it out from the headline??

[wonald]

Wow, looking at the People cover now . . .

Even with all the PSing, Rach looks like she aged 10 years since the show ended.

Rach, take a lesson from Golem. All that obsession with that fucking ring is gonna AGE you, hon. And try to keep all that "MY PRECIOUSSSSSSSS!!!" and "Mine! Mine! Mine!" to a minimum, will ya?

[Jillibean]

I don't love Peter. That said, I thought he came off as a lot more rational than Rachel did, and has for weeks. Especially a couple of weeks ago when he said he wanted them to know each other better and she said that was what the engagement is for. Given the history of the "end" couples on this franchise, he was not at all wrong that a proposal, in and of itself, was just a gesture. I also thought that his comments about  mediocre life and sacrificing happiness, while not kind, were merited given HER behavior in that moment. She was certainly acting as if she would pick him if he wanted to propose to her but since he wasn't willing she was going to pick the other guy whom she didn't like as much but who would give her a ring. Regardless of what her actual intention was or what her actual feelings were, that's certainly the impression I personally got based on how she was acting. I couldn't blame him if that's the impression he got also. He doesn't know what her relationship is like with Bryan. He only knows how she's acting in that moment.

I have to agree with others that she also came off as not being over it during their interview/conversation. I can't decide whether that's because she isn't over HIM or because he bruised her ego by not wanting to propose. I will say this, though: ego aside, I think most bachelorettes who had made their choice about whom to be with would be relieved that the "runner-up" didn't want to propose. It 1) spares you having to let down someone who is down on one knee and 2) reinforces that you picked the right person. The fact that Rachel didn't demonstrate that relief at all makes me think she wasn't set on Bryan, despite what she says now.

I also cry foul on her "confusion" about Peter's indecision about the proposal, he told her in Geneva he wouldn't stay if he wasn't feeling it, etc. From what we've seen, Peter has been extremely clear about his feelings about proposing and they seem to have had a talk about it on every date they've had for the past few episodes. Rachel knew very well that he wasn't there yet. She easily could have sent him home--that was HER decision to make. Instead, she decided to risk it by continuing to bring him along in the hopes he would somehow "get there" by the end. He didn't, but the fact that she gave him the opportunity to try was not his fault. 

And, finally, I'm not that into Peter. I don't want him as the next Bachelor. I just also happen to think his behavior on the show (I don't follow any of them on social media) was pretty reasonable. However, he never seemed totally into her and is terrible at spelling and I don't think she would have been better off with him by any means. 

As for Bryan...I can't even imagine what his mother will think after watching this. I can see Rachel and Bryan making it, because she's too stubborn and proud to want to admit she made any kind of error in judgment and he wants to have a TV wedding. But I can't imagine Rachel, who has a very strong sense of self, tolerating what will likely be Bryan's mother's very strong influence in his life. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Jillibean

[thesupremediva1]

I never thought I'd see anything worse than Des's finale, but I was so very wrong. I actually liked Chris in Des's season, and I'm happy things worked out for them. Des was never anything but kind and gracious to all the men.

Tonight was a shit storm of epic proportions. First, I tuned out at 10:20 p.m. When it became clear that Peter and Rachel were done after the hotel room sob-fest, I just went to sleep. She obviously chose Bryan and his ring, so nothing to see here folks. Why did ABC think this was a good format? They definitely lost viewers for the final 30 minutes. No suspense whatsoever.

There is no way to spin what happened in that hotel room. You do not sit on a couch and sob about wishing a man would propose to you if you are so truly in love with someone else. If Rachel was actually ready to marry Bryan, she would have had an easy time of it. She would have had to manufacture angst, in fact. Peter shows up, you tell him you know he's not ready to propose, but you wish him well, this process wasn't for him, yadda yadda yadda. Bryan shows up, you say you knew it was him all along and you get engaged. Suspense in tact, no deviations, perfect love story!

That's not what happened. She wanted Peter, and she made every last-ditch effort to hear him say sincerely that he wanted to propose to her the next day. That was an uglier breakup than Des and Brooks because you could tell Peter actually loves Rachel, where Brooks was just frightened and confused. I thought Peter articulated himself very well. If Rachel wanted a proposal more than anything, she had no business keeping Peter past final 5. That's on her. I actually believe Des would have accepted an offer from Brooks to just date, and she would have missed out on Chris.

In this situation, I agree with Peter and just find Bryan to be smarmy and disingenuous. Bryan and Rachel put on one huge schmooze-fest for all of us to watch. They're so happy about their titles of future husband and wife and her big rock that they could be hugging cardboard cutouts. 

If I had any doubts that Rachel was settling, her reaction to Peter put those to rest. She was there for a takedown. Neither of them were innocent, and I'm totally going to use Peter's "Go settle for a mediocre life with someone else" line at some point, because damn that's an epic burn, but her attitude toward him felt deeply antagonistic. The body language, the vibes... you could have cut it with a knife. It actually got worse for him after he acknowledged his mean comment and apologized! 

I understand why he felt "attacked" and couldn't put it into words. She wasn't actually attacking him, but she used all her intelligence, poise, and rationality against him. I've done that to people before. When someone you cared about takes all things you used to love about that person and turns those qualities against you, it feels personal and vindictive. Rachel was going to come out on top, and she had prepared herself to bury Peter and make sure he wasn't in the running for Bachelor.

I don't really blame Rachel for those feelings - Peter signed up to be on a show geared toward marriage and he could have ended up humiliating her at the end - but her flippant attitude about living her "best life" wasn't going to ring true after what we'd watched. She had no kindness left for Peter, and that happens when you deeply love someone and feel rejected by them.

Bryan just comes off as a poseur who's way too over the top for my taste. I'd have chosen Eric just to avoid that MIL. I give it 6 months to one year, and I'll be shocked if they get anywhere near the altar.

Edited August 8, 2017 by thesupremediva1

[truthaboutluv]

3 minutes ago, LilJen said:

I wish she had gotten a PR person, because agreeing to the live show? That was a poor PR choice. 

I'm pretty sure that the leads are contractually obligated to do the live ATFR. The format was a bit different this season with her being with Chris Harrison throughout the episode and them having the interview with her Eric and Peter as the eliminations were shown. But that aside, every lead has to do the live ATFR and face the Final 2 and well in this case the Final 3 as well. 

eta: As I said last night, I'm sure Rachel will get dragged plenty and Peter fans will declare that she was a monster to him.  And you know what, I do think Rachel is petty and has a mean girl streak in her. I saw it last season with some of her post show comments regarding Nick and Vanessa and her not so hidden disdain for Vanessa. Even now that she's gone through her own season, she was asked about any lingering thoughts about Nick now that she is engaged and she said she wished him the best with Vanessa and said it with this snide look that the interviewer started laughing. And she even said, "yeah I'm trying to be nice". So no questions, girl can hold a grudge and be petty. 

But I feel like a lot of the red flags and issues with Peter never got fairly called out, maybe because some were too busy being blinded by this so called pretty (don't really see it much myself). I'm not going to rehash all the issues I've had with Peter all season but I will say that for all the talk of Rachel's tone in their conversation during the ATFR, there were many moments during their breakup that I was very uncomfortable in Peter's tone and how he was talking to Rachel and the things he said to her. He came across as slightly controlling and "my way or the high way". Like I said last night, I got traumatic flashbacks of Jake Pavelka. The seemingly handsome and perfect guy who is all tightly wound and kind of a control freak. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by truthaboutluv

[nutty1]

I wonder what would have happened if Peter acted totally different in that hotel room and said he finally saw the light and was ready to commit. Would she have turned down his proposal the next day??

 

Supremediva, I have compared Peter to Brooks many times during the season. I think it's not that they didn't want to find love, it was just that neither found the right girl in the lead. I have heard podcasts with Brooks, and he wanted to leave earlier in the process. And I agree, if Brooks stayed until the end, she would have chosen him. Fate had a funny way of making it work for Des, happily.

Funny, I think Brooks and Peter are 2 of the most handsome men to ever have been on this show.

[bantering]

1 hour ago, b2H said:

For me, it wasn't what she said, it was how she said it.  I took her delivery as snippy and bitchy and this was after Peter had apologized multiple times.  I took his apologies as sincere and heartfelt and her response-method was inappropriate.  She could have delivered exactly the same message by saying that she was happy and (then, as she said) wished only happiness for him.  It's the problem with a live show.  If Rachel ever gets to see a playback, I think she would have wished to just have communicated the sentiment a bit differently.  Peter sure wished he had a do-over with the mediocre life comment.

I don't know...I thought the delivery was fine.  Unless you're gifted with a completely flat affect, I think it's impossible to say anything without some level of expression. Peter did seem somewhat flatter and lower energy, but then I wasn't sure if he was depressed and on Prozac. 

If he's going to be the next Bachelor anyway, I don't see anything wrong with her delivery or what she said.

Edited August 8, 2017 by bantering

[adhoc]

Well, weaselly Chris Harrison did a fine job hammering away at the Rachel/Peter issue last night, didn't he? He simply would not let it go.  He was going to milk the tension and undercurrent of animosity between R/P as long as he could. When, at his persistent questioning, Rachel and Peter re-stated their positions for, like, the third time, I just yelled at Chris Harrison and left the room. Harrison could have wrapped things up much sooner, but hey, why focus on the happy couple when there's more drama to be exploited? It's all about ratings, people!

Edited August 8, 2017 by adhoc

[bantering]

1 hour ago, pickle said:

  While there are some who are annoyed that she chose Bryan, the overwhelming sentiment is that she chose the ring and since Bryan was the only one willing, she went with Bryan. Fans know that most of this couples don't last but during the season airing, most want to see a fairy tale unfold. The backlash is not really about her choosing Bryan and more about her destroying this fairy tale narrative (and thus the enjoyment of the show) by making a choice to settle.

 

Wasn't the fairy-tale narrative of this show destroyed a long time ago? Anyone remember when Jason first picked Melissa, changed his mind, and then picked Molly?:

[TheFinalRose]

7 hours ago, Miss Slay said:

I think Rachel had questions about Peter's push and pull all season. On one hand,he was telling her about envisioning a life together and on the other, he was saying he wasn't positive if she was the one. Rachel was so confused. But when she watched it back on TV, it's quite clear, that Peter was gunning for the Bachelor position. As Rachel says, she hates to be played. I believe that's where her frustration was coming from.

I wish we had been privy to his conversations about what type of bed they would buy, etc., that Rachel alluded to. I think Peter was giving off VERY conflicting vibes to her that we didn't see. Maybe when she watched the show alone, (as she reminded us!) she was finally able to see his distant body language in a way she didn't while living it, and her perspective on Peter really changed to the point that, by the time she got to last night she didn't have any more patience for Mr. Indecision.

Quote

 

It's interesting that some believe Rachel was begging for a proposal. I didn't see it that way at all. I saw a woman who wanted to get married and needed to make that clear. She's done the long-term relationship thing (I love the sex and the city term "expiration dating") and she came on the show to find a husband, not a boyfriend. 

I guess I relate because I've never been into pointless relationships as an adult who was ready for marriage. I didn't date anyone who wasn't clear about why they were pursuing me. I wasn't conceited or entitled, I just valued my time. I didn't agree to date my husband until he made his intentions clear. 

I think more women (those who want to get married) should date like Rachel and refuse to settle for "maybe, someday, possibly, let's see where this goes." The Peters of the world are complete timesucks.

 

Quote

Where I fault Rachel is keeping Peter on the show. He wasn't honest enough to take himself out of the running (apparently that has happened before) and he wanted Rachel, who was always clear about her expectations, to be willing to settle for less than what she came for. I think she should have tossed Peter weeks ago, and I do think she pressured him, but I also don't get the entitlement talk. If only more women were strong enough to decide what they want and not settle. But as they say, everybody ain't able.

Ride the Maverick I agree with you so much I had to quote you twice. Rachel is not 25 years old, willing to just see what happens. She's lived through relationships that went nowhere and now can recognize a potential dead end when she sees it. The fact that she's saying, "not doing that again" is refreshing. I like that she didn't budge for Peter, as he wouldn't for her. So, bye bye!

I wish she would have dumped Peter at F3, but we never know how much producer manipulation is whispering in her ear, saying "give him a little more time, maybe he'll come around." 

[JudyObscure]

When Peter apologized for the "mediocre" comment and suddenly Rachel set up straight and looked angry, she was just like my husband.  Every time I ever apologized for anything he would go  from cool to steamed in seconds.  It's like he didn't give himself permission to get mad at me until he got that second opinion that what I did/said was wrong.  Needless to say, after the first several times, I quit apologizing about anything, ever.  Let sleeping dogs lie.

When Bryan said that Rachel's lawyer tone turned him on, I wondered how long that was going to last. Her facial expressions when she's doing that are very unloving, as though she has already passed judgement.  I wouldn't want to see that very often.

[mostlylurking]

Omgosh if "you will have a mediocre life" is an unforgivable offense when a person is in the heat of the moment I cringe at what my fellow poster may think of things I've said (and have had said to me).  He apologized more than once, and I don't even think what he said was that bad.  It was a silly comment.

That wind was out of control.  I guess production blew their budget on Mila and Ashton and the BSB in previous seasons because although the countries they went were lovely and scenic, the actual places they stayed were all meh.  I thought poor Rachel, first she cries her eyelashes off and then she has her eyelashes blown off in a windstorm.

10 hours ago, lightbeam said:

Interesting people are willing to give Peter a break, but Juan Pablo and what his face (dude that was on the show twice - blanking on his name) got raked through the coals for not proposing.

I think that was Brad?  I never understood the utter rage against these too.  Everyone knows the premise of the show, but if you're not feeling it well then you're just not.  What can you do?

I think Eric is amazing and really liked him.  He dodged all the drama on ATFR and I think he would be such a great bachelor.  I think he would enjoy the moment, be present and positive and just take the opportunity for what it is.  

I actually felt very badly for Bryan.  We barely got to see any of his last date with Rachel, they rushed the Neil Lane advert, and the proposal was anticlimactic after an hour of Peter angst.  Even ATFR I felt Rachel was still very distracted and forcing herself to focus on Bryan.  Look he's not my type, I think he is way too aggressive and looks like a bad kisser.  But I actually do think he's sincere, he comes off as smarmy but I think that is genuinely just his personality.  He didn't deserve to be a second fiddle.

And then the kicker--now that she has the ring on her finger she says they are going to take it slow.  It really was all about the ring.  Does Rachel understand that just because she has a rock on her finger that was paid for by ABC does not mean they are definitely going to last??  People break off engagements all the time.  Plus I'm sorry but no one gets that excited about a pear shaped ring (apologies if anyone here has one, jmho).  Oh, Bryan.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by mostlylurking

[TheFinalRose]

Quote

There is no way to spin what happened in that hotel room. You do not sit on a couch and sob about wishing a man would propose to you if you are so truly in love with someone else. 

Maybe, but I didn't see it that way. I think Rachel by nature might enjoy an intense interchange of the kind she had with Peter. It might say more about her love of getting in there and arguing a point that she truly is invested in than it says about her love of Peter. 

[mostlylurking]

10 hours ago, dirtypop90 said:

When did Eric say half of his relatives were in prison?

I do think Eric said before his hometown date that many of his relatives were/had been in prison.

[debbie311]

Did I hear this right?  Did she actually say "Give it to me" when she saw the ring at the proposal?!

I watched this show only sporadically this season, but she came across as desperate last night.  I get that you go on the show to find a husband, but her desperation was cringe-worthy.  Clearly she wanted Peter and settled for Bryan because he was willing to propose.  I give them six months, tops.

OMG, that dress she was wearing when she sent Eric home.  It was scary!  And the second Fantasy Suite was definitely low-budget.  Not like the previous luxurious Fantasy Suites from past seasons.