The Lonely Js Club: James, Jackson & Johannah

[JenCarroll]

Wait, what? The Duggar kids, or the kids who were abused were beaten?

I came here to see if Josiah going to ALERT was any indication that they thought he was up to no good with girls, so sent him there for brainwashing.

The kids who were abused are Duggars. But the rod was reported by a non-victim witness (Duggar) child. Edited May 22, 2015 by JenCarroll

[cmr2014]

This also makes me think about all of the time that Jana has been spending in DC. I really thought that she liked going there, and being away from the TTH, but that really seems unlikely.

 

The Gothard materials for counseling abuse victims mention how important it is for the victim to forgive the abuser. Maybe Jana has been sent there over and over again so that she will have the opportunity to forgive as part of her "therapy."

[Saylii]

Number one I think Jana does it for Mack. Also even though Anna stands by his side, she may not have known the five girls he molested included his sisters. Jana may have liked Anna's company.

[becca3891]

 

I just realized Jana's famous JTTH spiel about having issues in her heart against certain family members probably didn't just mean her parents... :(

I came to the same depressing conclusion. How awful that her only "counseling" has been Gothard indoctrination. She and her fellow victims needed real counseling and never got it. Everyone responds to abuse differently. Maybe for Jana, it's triggering every time Boob humps and slobbers over Michelle or makes one of his endless juvenile sex allusions. Maybe it's triggering any time someone hints at a courtship at her and she tries to picture sex and has only bad associations with the idea. Of course, this could be true for any of the victims and my heart breaks for each of them. We have called the young girls the Lost Girls, but the older ones are lost too. Even now the focus is all on Josh.

[MissMally]

Someone posted this link from 2007 in the Josh and Anna thread

http://bitterjealousfatties.yuku.com/topic/964/Josh-Duggar-Molested-Sisters#.VV5xb1IsrJ0

So it looks like Josh avoided Jana (if it is to be believed). She probably suffers from some pretty severe survivor's guilt. But serious props to her for doing her damnedest (well what she realistically can) to protect the others.

[Lillybee]

Poor Jana, I believe that Mullet has told her that her molestation happened because she somehow defrauded Josh and it was all her fault.

[Readalot]

I think it was Jana who started this ball rolling. Wanted to get off the crazy train. Maybe she heard about TLC and Honey Boo Boo snd how TLC provided counseling for the kids and hoped that TLC would help her siblings too

[Fuzzysox]

Now it makes perfect sense why Josiah was upset every time a new baby was announced. He knew what was coming and didn't want anyone else to suffer.

[GEML]

Yes, it explains a lot. But I also think that Anna and Jana have the only genuine friendship out of the Duggar daughters. And to the extent that Anna knew details, I'm betting those details came from Jana. I think this is a very complicated and closed circle, that most of us are never, really going to be able to understand.

[neural-plasticity]

From another thread talking about this situation, I started thinking about Jana's relation with John David and how many have commented that it's pretty nonexistent being that they were twins. I wonder if a.) the fact that JD is her twin saved her from Josh's actions and b.) the fact that they're not really close is because of this situation (once her parents started separating the boys and girls after puberty). It makes me sad if Jana really missed out on having a strong(er) support system through John David. I don't have any brothers, but I've had friends who literally were like brothers to me, and I can't imagine where I'd be without their support when I was growing up (especially as a teen).

[BitterApple]

I don't know, I still think it was Jill who managed to avoid abuse, not Jana. JD and Jana have never seemed close to me and I think that was by design. After what happened with Josh I'm sure there was a concerted effort to break up sibling pairings. JD/Jana, Joy/Si, Hannie/Jackson. It seems like a lot of preemptive measures were taken to avoid another "mistake."

[barbedwire]

Just like Jana being forced to give her jewelry box to Jessa, I wonder if she was one of the victims and was forced to forgive Josh.  I so hate that!  Someone does something wrong/cruel against you and you are the one in the wrong if  you don't forgive them.  It becomes all about what you should do!  How about if the person so chooses to forgive you then that is a gift to you but they are under no obligation or time frame to do so?!  No wonder she always looks so down.

 

Run Jana run!

[Vaysh]

After what happened with Josh I'm sure there was a concerted effort to break up sibling pairings. JD/Jana, Joy/Si, Hannie/Jackson. It seems like a lot of preemptive measures were taken to avoid another "mistake."

And that makes perfect sense using their twisted logic of suppression and denial. To me it would actually make more sense to nurture close natural sibling relationships between brothers and sisters. Not only will there be a personal connection where they see each other as actual people, not just body parts or a different gender to be curious about, but from what I understand the more time spent growing up close together the less attracted people will be to each other. There's a fancy name for it that I can't recall at the moment but the opposite would be GSA where people get attracted to siblings or parents after having been separated from them their whole lives.

 

 

ETA: It's called The Westermarck Effect

Edited May 22, 2015 by Vaysh

[neural-plasticity]

The sad thing, too, is that if they did let those relationships happen (Joy/Si, etc.), they might have been able to show the other siblings that it is possible to have relationships with the opposite sex without any inappropriate actions or thoughts happening. You would think that when this concerns your siblings, that idea would be a given. Instead, the girls get split from their male-siblings and told they better not entice their brothers by walking around them!!

[BitterApple]

Vaysh, I understand what you mean. I grew up being close with the boy next door and when one of my friends in high school made a joke about the two of us dating, my response was "ugh, that would be like dating my brother!!!" I can see how breaking normal sibling bonds would be a catalyst, not a deterrent, for abuse.

Edited May 22, 2015 by BitterApple

[Happyfatchick]

There was such an amazing load of devastating reading and adjusting to do yesterday - I promised myself I would NOT snark today at all.  I was going to give myself (and everybody else) a break.

 

But.  Duty calls.

 

I watched the epi last night with the host (what's her name?) sitting there in the living room with the Duggars.  The recent one.  I wanted to hear Josie sing because several people mentioned it.  I also wanted to see the tension in the room that everybody talked about.  And I saw the point, although you can't really watch anymore without zeroing in on Josh and thinking CREEP!!!  CREEP!!!  CREEP!!!!!

 

I did finally hear Josie do Amazing Grace.  It was quite sweet.  She really does have a sweet little voice, and she really did manage to stay on key, and even get the high notes.  But the thing I noticed (and I LOVE me some Jana, I really want to lasso that girl and save her from a life of insanity...) was Jana's piano playing.  I've seen before where she's been noted as a "concert pianist".  I took 10 years of piano, and I'm passable.  I don't play in public anymore, in fact, I rarely play at all anymore.  It was mostly for my mother's entertainment and she's beyond that now (dementia).  But I'm wondering WHO ever labeled Jana a concert level pianist?  True enough, she was playing a simple hymn, and not Chopin.  Still, to a trained ear, she doesn't have the touch of a concert pianist.  I'd say she's a couple notches below the keyboard ax murderer, Erin.  I'm sure she is talented, I'm sure she loves to play, as they put a small upright in the girl's bedroom for her.  Loving to play, and playing at an acceptable level for ones own entertainment or even accompaniment is many, many levels different than a classical concert pianist.  Just saying.  I wonder if she's shy about playing as well?  When J/J got married, they should have asked Jana to take her ax and hammer and play the Bridal March instead of being a bridesmaid.  I'm always ultra honored when asked to play for weddings.  Funerals too, oddly enough.  I'm probably the only nutjob in the world who wondered why she didn't play for the weddings at the time, but I did.

[StaceyNotStacie]

Jana totally acted like Josie's mom during the piano/singing segment.  She seemed very proud of Josie and cracked some sort of joke about how they're still working on the words.  Still, I thought that they played/sang great.  

 

I caught the end of the skiing episode this morning, the part where they went tubing (and left Michelle and Josie at home).  Jana had a huge smile while tubing down that hill, a smile that we rarely get to see.  I'm hoping that with these revelations that she will get an amount of independence and we will see more of that smile.  

[Aethera]

Knowing what Jana's been through and seen can we change the title of this thread? It seems kinda insulting, now.

 

Done.  We'll likely do a poll for better joke thread names once things calm down a bit, but for now, just took the 'Old Maid' off.

[MarysWetBar]

Awesome. Thank you.

[JenCarroll]

Yes. I have always assumed the intent of the title was ironic, but under the circumstances, I'm glad to see it gone.

[CarolMK]

If we had a choice on what to call Jana in this thread, I'd refer to her as both a mom and a hero. She has raised pretty much all the kids in the house much better than Michelle ever did and showed love and caring a great deal more as well. She is also a hero for staying, and now in light of this horrible truth coming out, I believe the reason she has stayed is to protect her younger siblings from her parents, who do as little parenting as possible. 

[anony mouse]

I've had the gut feeling this courtship is more of a rescue Josiah operation, and now more than ever I hope it's true.

[graefin]

Remember this clip, where Jana is ostensibly tearing up remembering how Jessa used to torment her, and her parents, when told about it, forced her to give her her most prized possession? I now think the tears were triggered by the memory of what Josh did, not Jessa. So sad.

 

https://instagram.com/p/2JNnd0g4k4/?taken-by=freejinger

[BitterApple]

Remember this clip, where Jana is ostensibly tearing up remembering how Jessa used to torment her, and her parents, when told about it, forced her to give her her most prized possession? I now think the tears were triggered by the memory of what Josh did, not Jessa. So sad.

https://instagram.com/p/2JNnd0g4k4/?taken-by=freejinger

I feel sick to my stomach seeing Jana in so much pain. Looking back with what we know now, it's ludicrous to think that level of hurt came out of giving away a stupid jewelry box. Jessa may have been a little shit but in reality, most younger siblings are pains in the ass. I agree she was referring to something more sinister, we just didn't know it at the time. How awful. Edited May 22, 2015 by BitterApple

[Apple Clark]

If we had a choice on what to call Jana in this thread, I'd refer to her as both a mom and a hero. She has raised pretty much all the kids in the house much better than Michelle ever did and showed love and caring a great deal more as well. She is also a hero for staying, and now in light of this horrible truth coming out, I believe the reason she has stayed is to protect her younger siblings from her parents, who do as little parenting as possible. 

I've always been a Jana fan, but now.... I can't imagine how much strength it takes for her to do what she does every day, and how much courage it takes for her to face her brother. She really is an amazing person, and even though I liked her before, I really admire her now. I was speculating a while ago (not sure if I posted it here) about how she might be depressed, and I truly think she is now. I hope she isn't though...

[graefin]

I agree she was referring to something more sinister, we just didn't know it at the time. How awful.

It's what she's quoted as saying that clinches it: "There are people that may hurt us, there are people who may have done things to us, and it is our responsibility to forgive them."

[Vaysh]

"There are people that may hurt us, there are people who may have done things to us, and it is our responsibility to forgive them."

 

This, right here, makes me so furiously angry it brings tears to my eyes. What an utter, utter shit move to not only blame the victim for their abuse but then turn around and put all the responsibility of forgiving the abuser on their shoulders as well. Forgiveness is a gift that should be given willingly and without external pressure; it is an internal process that can take a long long time, and if it never comes that's perfectly fine too as sometimes things just can't be forgiven.

 

I know forgiveness is a big deal in Christianity, and I do think that being able to let go of grudges and painful memories and forgive those who wronged us can be a relief and a way of moving on with your life, but this idea of public insta-forgiveness or you're a bad Christian just rubs me the wrong way. It seems more for the benefit of the perpetrator and the patriarchal power structure than for the victim.

[Micks Picks]

I got the idea Josiah was upset about the news of a new baby because he knew the risk that his mother would die.

[Fuzzysox]

I'll be the first to say that the Marjorie/Josiah courtship will soon be done.

 

I can't imagine her family wanting her to get into the Duggar family now. Since the Duggar name is now tainted I can't imagine her parents wanting her to be part of it. 

[GEML]

I will say, having my own music box story, I think it rings true.

I think it's important that we not read everything about the girls' lives through this one event(s) that happened to them. Yes, it's enormous and profoundly shaped who they are, but treating them ONLY as victims of abuse turns them into one dimensional caricatures, and risks victimizing them again.

Edited May 22, 2015 by GEML

[txvoodoo]

It's what she's quoted as saying that clinches it: "There are people that may hurt us, there are people who may have done things to us, and it is our responsibility to forgive them."

With JB & Michelle sitting there gloating, watching her conform. I am so nauseous. 

[BitterApple]

I got the idea Josiah was upset about the news of a new baby because he knew the risk that his mother would die.

I think that's likely the case. I don't believe Josiah or the other boys knew the full extent of what happened between Josh and the girls until the story broke this week.

[RazzleberryPie]

I'll be the first to say that the Marjorie/Josiah courtship will soon be done.

 

I can't imagine her family wanting her to get into the Duggar family now. Since the Duggar name is now tainted I can't imagine her parents wanting her to be part of it. 

I'll be the first to say that it won't. Marjorie really really really wants to be on the Duggar Stage. Josiah is not Josh. They think Josh has repented and trust him enough to let him live under the same roof as his siblings until he married, and then let the older girls travel across the country to babysit for him.

 

If anything, they'll push it faster, to have a happy ending and save the franchise, and to keep Josiah and Marj from having any unrighteously fulfilled desires. If anything, Marj might expedite it all by putting herself in a Southern Belle 'compromising situation' where they just can't bear it and have to be married NOW.

[Spencer Hastings]

I don't think the courtship will end because of something Josh did. Heaven help us all if we were judged by a sibling's transgressions.

[Fuzzysox]

^^^But her geting married to Josiah (we all love him to death) means she will forever be a Duggar (tainted name) and have to interact with Josh at family gatherings. The having to interact with Josh part is a red flag to me as a parent. He will always be a part of the family. His parents didn't shun him or punish him. Marjorie will be forced to have her kids in the same room as  him. I couldn't live if my daughter had to live under those circumstances.

 

IDK maybe I just don't forgive or forget ever so it would always weigh on my mind.

[JoanArc]

I don't think the courtship will end because of something Josh did. Heaven help us all if we were judged by a sibling's transgressions.

Yeah, but what about the parents that raised him? JB&M didn't know whether to piss or go blind as parents, and now it shows. I'd advise my child to slow the heck down, since you don't know the full extent, or what might show up in Si.

[HeyNow]

I hope they know the difference between forgiveness and absolving.

[Spencer Hastings]

Yeah, but what about the parents that raised him? JB&M didn't know whether to piss or go blind as parents, and now it shows. I'd advise my child to slow the heck down, since you don't know the full extent, or what might show up in Si.

His parents suck but somehow children of rapists and serial killers manage to go through life as decent human beings. I understand the concern and any parent should have questions and doubts, but I would hate to dismiss a kid who had no choice in which family he was born into. It sucks for everyone involved but I would be more concerned FOR Josiah, rather than be concerned about him.

[birkenstock]

I can't imagine what Josiah is going through right now with his place in the family and his new courtship. Josiah's best friend growing up was Joy Anna and he seemed to have a true brotherly bond with Josh. He was also close enough to Ben and Jessa to be one of Ben's groomsmen. It's a lot to process for someone who is barely an adult. 

 

I can understand why Marjorie's parents would have concerns and be wary in regards to Josh's continued presence in the family. I can also see why they would be concerned about Jim Bob and Michelle's moral ethics. I don't think that it should be an automatic end of Josiah and Marjorie's courtship.  Josiah isn't Josh. I think the Jackson family could be circling the wagons around Josiah even if they begin to keep Jim Bob and Michelle at a distance.  Marjorie's family has gotten to know Josiah over several years, this isn't meeting once at an ATI conference and then starting to skype relationship. I hope the courtship continues if that's what Josiah and Marjorie want.  

[Aw my lahgs]

I will say, having my own music box story, I think it rings true.

I think it's important that we not read everything about the girls' lives through this one event(s) that happened to them. Yes, it's enormous and profoundly shaped who they are, but treating them ONLY as victims of abuse turns them into one dimensional caricatures, and risks victimizing them again.

 

I think though, that even though it's presented as one-time events in the police report, that in reality this went on for years and was probably way way worse and gruesome than what we know. I think what we know is merely the tip of the iceberg, so to speak.

[MrsMommy]

I would love to be a fly on the wall at tth right now

[JoanArc]

 

His parents suck but somehow children of rapists and serial killers manage to go through life as decent human beings. I understand the concern and any parent should have questions and doubts, but I would hate to dismiss a kid who had no choice in which family he was born into. It sucks for everyone involved but I would be more concerned FOR Josiah, rather than be concerned about him.

My comment reads like I think he leans toward his brother perversion - to clarify, I do not. What I meant was how'd he going to behave a relationship, when every model of intimacy, love, and friendship in his life if effed up from the floor up? He needs a bit of time and counseling. Marge has a had a much better life than Si, let him catch up.

 

Oh, and he's really gonna need a job an education now. Marge shouldn't get married, not use birth control, and have a teenage husband who's only life experience is as a reality tv star. 2 years of counseling, working a real job, and getting some kind of degree before they take it any further. Just my thoughts.

[BitterApple]

Oh, and he's really gonna need a job an education now. Marge shouldn't get married, not use birth control, and have a teenage husband who's only life experience is as a reality tv star. 2 years of counseling, working a real job, and getting some kind of degree before they take it any further. Just my thoughts.

THIS^^^^^. The gravy train is likely over. Getting caught cheating on your wife is one thing, molesting underage girls is another. The Duggars will truly be Teflon Dons if they can bounce back from this mess. With that said, the last thing Josiah needs is to be yet another uneducated, unskilled family member marrying too young and popping out babies before his 20th birthday. If both he and Margie want to continue the courtship, by all means do so, but homeboy needs a life plan that doesn't include reality tv.

[RazzleberryPie]

I can't imagine what Josiah is going through right now with his place in the family and his new courtship. Josiah's best friend growing up was Joy Anna and he seemed to have a true brotherly bond with Josh. He was also close enough to Ben and Jessa to be one of Ben's groomsmen. It's a lot to process for someone who is barely an adult. 

 

I can understand why Marjorie's parents would have concerns and be wary in regards to Josh's continued presence in the family. I can also see why they would be concerned about Jim Bob and Michelle's moral ethics. I don't think that it should be an automatic end of Josiah and Marjorie's courtship.  Josiah isn't Josh. I think the Jackson family could be circling the wagons around Josiah even if they begin to keep Jim Bob and Michelle at a distance.  Marjorie's family has gotten to know Josiah over several years, this isn't meeting once at an ATI conference and then starting to skype relationship. I hope the courtship continues if that's what Josiah and Marjorie want.  

Josiah has a very similar smugness that Josh has. Not saying Josiah is a perv like Josh, but I truly think they're marrying Josiah off as soon as possible for a reason (he's horny). There doesn't seem to be any concern with JD or Joseph, but those two are as dull as dishwater. 

 

I completely realize Josh and Josiah are two separate people and not responsible for each other's actions. HOWEVER, if I were any parent and my child was interested in pursuing any Duggar, I'd have a whole lot of red flags, just for the sheer fact that they'll be around Josh and possibly others with the same perversion at family events, where its difficult to keep track of everyone when there are dozens of people running around a huge property.

[ChicksDigScars]

Good call on the thread name change, Mods. I was never comfortable referring to her in that way, even though I knew it was just snark. Now? Well, it definitely needed to be done. Team Jana. 

[birkenstock]

Josiah has a very similar smugness that Josh has. Not saying Josiah is a perv like Josh, but I truly think they're marrying Josiah off as soon as possible for a reason (he's horny). There doesn't seem to be any concern with JD or Joseph, but those two are as dull as dishwater. 

 

I completely realize Josh and Josiah are two separate people and not responsible for each other's actions. HOWEVER, if I were any parent and my child was interested in pursuing any Duggar, I'd have a whole lot of red flags, just for the sheer fact that they'll be around Josh and possibly others with the same perversion at family events, where its difficult to keep track of everyone when there are dozens of people running around a huge property.

I agree any parent should have concerns about their child entering the Duggar family.  The Duggar family dynamic is dysfunctional at best and, IMO, this was caused by Jim and Michelle's parental negligence and adherence to Gothard. I do wonder how the Jackson family's fairly recent conversion will affect their response to the news. Will it cause them to pull back or double down? I don't think that the Jacksons should just hand their underage daughter over to the Duggars, but Josiah shouldn't be written off as a lost cause (I'm not saying that you or anyone here have said this). I had hoped that this courtship was a chance for Josiah to leave the Duggar influence and potentially go to college/gain job skills. I don't think that it is Marjorie or her parents' responsibility to save him, but I would love for him and all of the Duggar kids to have some normality in their lives. I hate that Josh's actions and Jim Bob/Michelle's inaction and neglect continue to negatively affect the rest of the Duggar family.

 

There were times that I thought Josiah was overly smug when he was a preteen and family spokesperson on the show.  I attributed his smugness from constantly being told how amazing and inspirational his family. 

 

I do think that Jim Bob and Michelle trust JD and Joseph. They allowed them to stay back in Tontitown when the rest of the Duggars were in Little Rock when Josie was in the hospital and they trusted JD with Jana on the overseas mission trip.   

 

I think that Josiah's interest in Marjorie and getting married is normal developmentally (he wants to have sex and getting married is the only "respectable" way in their culture). I agree that it seems Jim Bob and Michelle are ready for him to leave the house.  Ben was the same age (18) when he began to officially court Jessa. While I think it is extremely young, I didn't think Josiah and Marjorie's courtship was strange because Jim Bob and Michelle got married so early. Now I see it could have been their preemptive measure. 

[satrunrose]

Run Marjorie, run!

 

It's hard to say that because my biggest wish for all of the kids (especially Josiah) right now is for them to get away from their hose beast parents. The problem is, going through with this courtship doesn't mean Joshiah moving into a guest room and signing up for college and continuing to date/court Marjorie until they have both gotten some sort of (accredited) post-secondary education. It means Marjorie, married within a year, pregnant in 18 months, no education and becoming totally Duggar-fied like all her in-laws while the empire crumbles around them. I just can't wish that on a kid, no matter how in love they feel they are. 

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Run Marjorie, run!

^^^This!

I feel like that about all the Duggar kids and I want to tell them that now is the optimal time to break away from the family, write the first tell-all while the story is still "new," and make themselves new lives.

I know it's harder to do when it's your family that you're leaving. These people aren't Marjorie's family yet, though, so she better get out now! (and take Josiah with her and write a tell-all)

[MyPeopleAreNordic]

Sending positive thoughts Jana's way.

And Jana, it's okay if you're not ready to forgive. It's great if you have. But that doesn't mean you have to forget. None of this was your fault.

[Emme]

^^^This!

I feel like that about all the Duggar kids and I want to tell them that now is the optimal time to break away from the family, write the first tell-all while the story is still "new," and make themselves new lives.

I know it's harder to do when it's your family that you're leaving. These people aren't Marjorie's family yet, though, so she better get out now! (and take Josiah with her and write a tell-all)

I wonder if Marjorie's family knew about some of this? They've known the family a while (having taught them), have probably heard rumors (there must have been lots of rumors flying in AR, considering what reaches us here).

Every little thing Boob does is calculated to save money/make money/be the winner(s). I wouldn't be surprised if there are talks before courtships are entered where certain "issues" are laid out, with specifics on compensation for accepting, how they'll be dealt with, etc. Boob is extremely cunning. Not always successful, but always scheming.

P.S. I love your username! Are you as much in mourning for Mad Men as me? I feel adrift!