S03.E09: Fall

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

 

Everyone's Relationships Are 'Fall'ing Apart On Better Call Saul

Even relationships you wouldn't think could get any worse.

[ghoulina]

3 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did anyone else get a "Green Grove" (nursing home on the "Sopranos") vibe from the old ladies.  It reminded me a lot of Paulies "mom" being ostracized.  

Yes!!! I absolutely thought of her. Paulie's mom was adorable and I cried at her mistreatment just as I did last night with Irene. For those seniors, their social life/status is everything - they're stuck with those people indefinitely. 

 

2 hours ago, LuciaMia said:

Chuck may think he's getting better and more able to tolerate electrical currents, but he's far from being on the upswing. As Howard observed when Chuck was gripping that table lamp, "This is not what 'fine' looks like." Chuck looks pretty haggard and its obvious he's white-knuckling all his forays   outside.

As soon as Howard left the kitchen he put down the electric mixer thing and started chanting his colors. He's making improvements, but he's not there yet. And he's pushing it way too hard. 

[rue721]

23 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

I don't see any difference between the Jimmy who tormented Irene and the one who dumped a load into the car of someone he didn't like.

Really? I see a huge difference. Taking a shit in someone's car is gross and ridiculous, but IMO a whole different kind of thing than systematically alienating an elderly woman in order to manipulate her for your own financial gain.

[Prairie]

I have grown to care for Jimmy, and I didn't expect to dislike watching his transformation into Saul so much when I started watching this show. Not to say that I dislike the show, it's fantastic as is the cast. When we met Saul he was Saul, and I enjoyed him very much as an over-the-top, greasy character. But now that we know Jimmy, a real human (character) who wants nothing but love and acceptance from his older brother that he'll never get, it's really tough to watch him become hard. There's something heartbreaking about when people lose their innocence, and we are watching it play out. I think that Howard's bitter words to Jimmy in the parking garage, like Chuck's words in the courtroom, left scars on Jimmy's soul. You could see the complete sadness in his face both times as he learned what they thought of him. I wonder if we'll eventually despise Jimmy as we did Walter White. 

I always like the Mike/Nacho/Gus scenes. They are tense and exciting, and keep building the layers of the greater areas of this world. Michael Mando was a babe this episode as usual.

I liked how Howard was BLASTING jazz piano as he screeched into his parking spot.

[ChipBach]

17 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Really? I see a huge difference. Taking a shit in someone's car is gross and ridiculous, but IMO a whole different kind of thing than systematically alienating an elderly woman in order to manipulate her for your own financial gain.

Also - in a way, Jimmy was right.  Irene was not thinking of her friends while being manipulated by the law firm.  She isn't a child and she was given responsibility for the disposition of the law suit.  Apparently she didn't bother to convene a meeting or solicit feedback from her friends.  She just assumed they were financially "fine".  While she seemed like a sweet lady, she shouldn't be making independent decisions based solely on her frame of reference.  Kind of selfish.

Edited June 13, 2017 by ChipBach

[nodorothyparker]

29 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Quote

I don't see any difference between the Jimmy who tormented Irene and the one who dumped a load into the car of someone he didn't like.

Really? I see a huge difference. Taking a shit in someone's car is gross and ridiculous, but IMO a whole different kind of thing than systematically alienating an elderly woman in order to manipulate her for your own financial gain.

The Chicago sunroof incident was also a deliberate malicious act against someone Jimmy felt, justifiably, had wronged him.  In describing it, he was clearly enjoying himself right up to getting arrested for it.  I'm sure if you were in a position to ask Jimmy about what he was doing to Irene, he probably would have tried to explain it away as as not a malicious or personal thing at all and that sucks that she got hurt but business is business.  She was a means to end.

I did wonder throughout watching Jimmy interact with all of these women how much talking about the suit any of them had actually done with each other.  Because it seemed like something they had all signed on to without ever discussing any offers being made or what anyone actually wanted to come out of it. 

[Bryce Lynch]

56 minutes ago, rue721 said:

Really? I see a huge difference. Taking a shit in someone's car is gross and ridiculous, but IMO a whole different kind of thing than systematically alienating an elderly woman in order to manipulate her for your own financial gain.

I totally agree.  When he (in my maniacal Chuck voice) DEFECATED THROUGH A SUN ROOF!, he was trying to get even with some jerk who owed him money a slept with his wife, and he had no idea the children were present.  It was disgusting and classless, but he wasn't doing any permanent harm to anybody.   

With Irene, he basically took away all the happiness in what is left of her life by making all the other ladies hate her.   I'd rather have someone crap in my car than become an outcast among all the people in my life any day, 

[Sentient Meat]

1 hour ago, Ohwell said:

What Jimmy did was desperate and sleazy but I don't hate him.  I just felt badly for him that he had to stoop so low but when you're desperate for money......well, at least he didn't rob a bank.   Those old ladies were so sweet but it was kind of funny to see them gradually turn on Irene like mean girls.  

Nacho's conversation with his father was painful to watch.  It broke my heart when he quietly took the glass off the table, emptied it in the kitchen sink, and then left. 

And I still hate Chuck with all my heart. 

The problem is that Jimmy doesn't really need the money.  Right now he and Kim are doing some perverse version of Gift of the Magi, where she took on the extra account to help make up Jimmy's shortfall, and he's conning the old lady so he can keep his place in their office together.  It would be very romantic if he wasn't ruining someone's life to do so and she weren't running her health and sanity into the ground.  He only wants the money so he can play the role of the man, the knight in shining armor, because he's too proud to accept her help.  I don't hate Jimmy, but right now he doesn't have much of my respect.

[Ohwell]

18 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

I don't hate Jimmy, but right now he doesn't have much of my respect.

It's fine if you feel that way, we're all entitled to our opinions.

[Eulipian 5k]

20 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

 He only wants the money so he can play the role of the man, the knight in shining armor, because he's too proud to accept her help.  I don't hate Jimmy, but right now he doesn't have much of my respect.

Exactly, but of course Jimmy needs self-respect. Maybe he sees in Irene something he long ago learned to dislike about his own father. Don't let the wolves use you so they can profit from you.  The Law, as a profession will only harden that stance for Jimmy, er, Saul.

Nacho sees the wolves coming for his father, but he is taking a different stance...

[Ohwell]

37 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

He only wants the money so he can play the role of the man, the knight in shining armor, because he's too proud to accept her help.

I doubt that anyone, man or woman, would want someone to work themselves so hard that they have a car accident, to make money to support him or her.  Of course Jimmy is too proud to accept Kim's money; I would be too.  

[Lonesome Rhodes]

Humble apologies to everyone for my ridiculous error in referencing a Twilight Zone episode in my earlier post.  The show was Alfred Hitchcock and it was Peter Lorre, not Edward G. Robinson.   It is, however, all sorts of awesome.  On that point, I am correct.  ;)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0508196/

[Sentient Meat]

32 minutes ago, Ohwell said:

I doubt that anyone, man or woman, would want someone to work themselves so hard that they have a car accident, to make money to support him or her.  Of course Jimmy is too proud to accept Kim's money; I would be too.  

Most would be, but it's way better to allow her to help you while you get back on your feet, than cheating an old woman.  He could've done her paralegal work or just been her gofer instead... whatever is allowed within the parameters of his probation instead of becoming a con artist.  Kim wouldn't be so tired... Old lady doesn't lose her friends.  Win Win.

[PeterPirate]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

 Right now he and Kim are doing some perverse version of Gift of the Magi, 

Nice. And if Kim sold her pony tail it would solve a lot of problems.

[isiscloud]

I feel like Jimmy/Saul really was interested in finding out what was going on with the lawsuit and that Davis & Main was taking their time to see if there could be more money, but any money would do. It would be to the seniors' well-being as well; however, he sucked at doing something about it. Mean girls & boys doesn't change, it just gets different.

Kimmy, please tell Jimmy/Saul what you're doing so he doesn't have to con(ish) old ladies. He loves Kim so he doesn't want to let her down as he's already done. She also has her pride that she can do it all herself. Obviously won't end well.

Hate Chuck, but Howard & HHM (as much as Chuck wants to remind him, McGill comes last) should have called their insurance company when Chuck went out on leave. Their bad for sure.

We need a Gus show next!!

Nacho, Nacho, Nacho.

[Atlanta]

Isn't Jimmy pretty much broke? If he had any cash to spare, he wouldn't have that deathtrap car, would he?

I thought Kim took the client just to prove herself.

Yes, Irene should have consulted with her friends. She can't assume their situations, but Jimmy should have framed it gentler when he met with the other ladies like, "Maybe she doesn't know? Talk to her!" Etc.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Sentient Meat said:

The problem is that Jimmy doesn't really need the money.  Right now he and Kim are doing some perverse version of Gift of the Magi, where she took on the extra account to help make up Jimmy's shortfall, and he's conning the old lady so he can keep his place in their office together.  It would be very romantic if he wasn't ruining someone's life to do so and she weren't running her health and sanity into the ground.  He only wants the money so he can play the role of the man, the knight in shining armor, because he's too proud to accept her help.  I don't hate Jimmy, but right now he doesn't have much of my respect.

Gosh, that really echoes the predominant theme of Breaking Bad, which is how Walt, Jesse, Hank, and maybe even Skyler were possessed of an excessive pride which eventually created a tsunami of misery. I still think the predominant theme of this show is the reaction to grief and loss, whether it be the loss of dreams, of familial relationship, romantic relationships, and, of course, death. But referencing the role pride is playing as a destructive force in this instance is a nice callback to BB.

[iMonrey]

Quote

How does Davis and Main figure into the settlement proceeds? 

That's what I was wondering. Irene told Jimmy she'd been talking to someone over at D&M. Didn't they take the Sandpiper case when Jimmy went to work for them? So why did Jimmy go to Howard? I can't remember the connection between HHM and Davis and Main.

[ShadowFacts]

28 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Gosh, that really echoes the predominant theme of Breaking Bad, which is how Walt, Jesse, Hank, and maybe even Skyler were possessed of an excessive pride which eventually created a tsunami of misery. I still think the predominant theme of this show is the reaction to grief and loss, whether it be the loss of dreams, of familial relationship, romantic relationships, and, of course, death. But referencing the role pride is playing as a destructive force in this instance is a nice callback to BB.

I had not been thinking in these terms, but these are good points, and may tie in to a question posted above about not understanding the title of this episode.  Maybe one interpretation is "pride goeth before the fall."  Kim's pride in her ability to do it all will make her fall off the pedestal the Mesa Verde people have put her on, Chuck's inability to recognize he needed help and Howard's delayed reaction in protecting the firm are now converging to make HHM fall apart, Jimmy's refusal to take Kim's financial aid allowing him to fall so low as to devastate a sweet "friend".  Nacho has fallen right out of his family, and Hector is about to take a physical fall.  So far Gus and Mike are still standing.   Okay, I stretched a bit but I had been puzzling over the title, too. 

[JudyObscure]

The saddest part of the whole Irene story was Irene crying, "I don't care about the settlement, I just want things to be the way they used to be."  Because they never will.  No matter how nice they are in the future, Irene will know that their friendship isn't deep enough to withstand a few rumors and a new pair of walking shoes. 

[MonicaM]

17 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

I just saw blood.  I've (thankfully) never experienced it but I understand that an airbag going off can do a number on your face.

From personal experience, I can tell you that yes, it can.  It can also leave bruises all over your front torso, plus the aftermath smells awful.  Kim looked properly disoriented after the accident.  Hard to tell how badly she might be injured, since the adrenaline afterward sometimes causes even critically injured people to get out of the car and walk around.

[Quilt Fairy]

Quote

I thought Kim took the client just to prove herself.

I really wonder if a big part of Kim's problem is that she doesn't understand the infrastructure needed to be a lawyer in private practice.  All her experiences have been in a large law firm with partners and lots of associates and support staff.  When Jimmy was doing wills for seniors, he could get along with an office, a desk and an executive assistant like Francesca.  That same setup simply doesn't work when your client is a huge bank with regulatory issues in multiple states.  HHM or D&M  could handle a client like Mesa Verde, but Kim - even though it appears she's a sharp attorney - simply can't do it on her own.

Edited June 13, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[Ohwell]

I do wonder if over time, some of the other residents asked Irene about the status of the settlement.  I mean, they did know that she was the lead plaintiff, correct?

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Atlanta said:

Isn't Jimmy pretty much broke? If he had any cash to spare, he wouldn't have that deathtrap car, would he?

I thought Kim took the client just to prove herself.

I agree about Kim. I don't think she's in savior mode, I think she's a workaholic. She said that she came to ABQ and started law school because she "wanted more." I think she still, perpetually "wants more." I think it's just flat out ambition on her part.

IIRC, she chose to take the oil case after Jimmy refused her offer of help and gave her money for his share of the expenses. I think she looked at childish, sour, "loser" Jimmy laying there, and thought "fuck that!" and doubled down on her own ambition. I don't think it's about something as practical as paying the rent, for her.

Anyway, as to Jimmy:  He's not especially broke right now, I don't think -- at the least, he has that bag of cash from the music store, and the easy $700 from the community service guy, and he doesn't have a whole lot of expenses at the moment.

Jimmy has been weird about how he spends money since the beginning of the show, and will on the one hand just blow lots of money for no reason and on the other hand give force himself to live an incredibly ascetic existence. Like how he bought the fancy desk from D&M with his bonus money, and then was flashing lots of cash while trying to tip his (former) assistant for helping him move it, only to shove it into the nail salon furnace room along with his little cot. He could have gotten a pretty nice used car for the amount he spent on the desk, but that's just not who he is.

I think he'll buy a nice car when it is part of some scheme of his or some part he's playing (ie Saul) to have a nice car, because he always seems to find money to invest in that kind of thing. But in the meantime, he'll just get around in the most basic, minimal car possible, the Esteem.

2 hours ago, Sentient Meat said:

Most would be, but it's way better to allow her to help you while you get back on your feet, than cheating an old woman.  He could've done her paralegal work or just been her gofer instead... whatever is allowed within the parameters of his probation instead of becoming a con artist.  Kim wouldn't be so tired... Old lady doesn't lose her friends.  Win Win.

1 hour ago, Bannon said:

Gosh, that really echoes the predominant theme of Breaking Bad, which is how Walt, Jesse, Hank, and maybe even Skyler were possessed of an excessive pride which eventually created a tsunami of misery. I still think the predominant theme of this show is the reaction to grief and loss, whether it be the loss of dreams, of familial relationship, romantic relationships, and, of course, death. But referencing the role pride is playing as a destructive force in this instance is a nice callback to BB.

I don't think it's pride per se.

I think Jimmy is, in his own way, as much of a control freak as Chuck is, and this compulsion for scheming and this hunger for money is at least partly a control thing for him. The scheming is for sure.

To me, it seems like any situation where Jimmy is essentially powerless, he starts spinning these wild schemes to try and manipulate and pull everyone's strings and reassert control somehow. Saul did the same thing, up through the very end of Breaking Bad.

And I think that's why Jimmy concocted this IMO incredibly elaborate over-kill scheme to get Irene to accept this offer. I mean, it would have been smarter for him not to get involved at all, because this "chicanery" was not only mean and cruel of him, but it puts his whole claim at risk (like Howard warned) -- yet he couldn't keep his hands off the situation. And then a lot of what he emphasized to Irene's friends was their lack of control, that what they wanted didn't matter, that they were powerless, that they would have to accept their own inferior status compared to her's...IMO that was all a window into Jimmy's mind, too.

I think the trigger for all this scheming isn't so much the falling out with Chuck as it is that Chuck purposefully took away Jimmy's livelihood. Jimmy *freaked out* when he found out about the tape, and he's gone into a tailspin since the license suspension. I think it makes him feel very vulnerable and we're seeing the ripple effects of that.

ETA:  Vulnerable, and also hopeless, directionless...

Edited June 14, 2017 by rue721

[Auntie Anxiety]

9 hours ago, scenario said:

I agree that Irene is not the one to make the decision. That's why I think that all of the lawyers are being unethical in this case. Jimmy's handling of the case is terrible and offensive. The official lawyers are keeping most of the elderly clients out of the loop and relying on one trusting compliant person to make all of the decisions for the rest of the people. No one looks good in this situation. 

The lawyers might have hand-picked Irene because she was non-confrontational, wanted to be liked, and her eyes probably glazed over before the end of the second paragraph in letters from the law firm. Are you telling me there is no retired lawyer or accountant amongst the entire bunch of litigants? Let's face it: at this point the firm spends all of fifteen minutes once a month, calls the lawyer for Sandpiper, refuses whatever offer Sandpiper gives, write a letter to Irene and will still earn millions of dollars for doing next to nothing at this point. Unless Irene was not allowed to talk about the case to her friends, I think she should have made it her business to discuss the offers with them. The firms are culpable in all this, at least in my mind.

Lots of vitriol about Jimmy, but I still have a soft spot for him.

[monagatuna]

I'm just now watching this....as Chuck picks up the light in the conference room, the brakes on a car outside started screeching, and I could have sworn it was the "Chuck feeling searing pain" noise.

[MisterBluxom]

6 hours ago, J-Man said:

I addressed this upthread. The original poster must have been confused because it was an Alfred Hitchcock episode with McQueen and Peter Lorre. 

Thanks J-Man. I appreciate you taking the time to clarify that. People who may not have access to those Hitchcock TV episodes will likely remember a very similar story that occured in one of Tarantino's movies, Four Rooms. Tim Roth plays a bellboy who is tasked with helping out in a very gruesome bet. That bet is essentially the same story as the one in the Hitchcock episode. 

[Ronin Jackson]

Jimmy manipulating the ladies to turn on poor Irene was definitely a big leap towards becoming Saul Goodman, but I wonder if it's really that far removed from the warm, charismatic Jimmy we were introduced to earlier. Even if his intent was never harmful, Jimmy has never been above manipulating old people for his personal gain. Now he's crossed the line into potentially ruining a poor old lady's simple existence for his personal gain, but it's only a nudge of desperation that got him there.

I'm impressed once again with how Gilligan and Gould handle the evolution of characters over time. This is quite unique to their shows. Look at some of the other great dramas... The Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, The Shield, etc... the characters at the end of the show are not necessarily that different from how they started (I might give Mad Men a slight exception there). But In Gilligan's shows the characters completely transform. For a while it was hard to see how Jimmy would become the unsavory Saul Goodman, but now we are seeing it happen and it's easier to see that the signs were always there.

[MisterBluxom]

39 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

 

I do wonder why at least some of the old ladies didn't just talk this all out with Irene.  They have plenty of time to do that.  I find it hard to believe that they are all of the same mind, that it was better to isolate Irene, rather than get her view on things.

 

Many people here are upset with the way Jimmy treated Irene. Somehow, I don't see Irene having much of a problem for long. I'd guess she will easily be able to resolve the problem with her friends just by explaining that she didn't understand her role in the Class Action Suit but as soon as it was explained to her, she immediately told the lawyers to give her friends the money.

Those ladies wouldn't be very good friends if they weren't willing to accept that. I don't see that Jimmy had many better choices and I think the way he arranged things, it should work out well for all the ladies.

Be that as it may, once Irene insists on settling, the ladies should all get their money real quick. And if they can't make up with Irene after understanding the fact and after getting the money in hand, then I just hope someone will explain to Irene they are not really very good friends at all. But I expect they will all be very happy in the near future.

I know this show is just fiction, but my heart really goes out to Kim. I didn't understand what happened to her. I thank the poster who explained she must have fallen asleep at the wheel - given she was so exhausted and all. I hope this accident leads to Jimmy telling her that he will take care of everything while she heals and then he should resolve the legal affairs with the oil company and make sure Kim gets all the money she needs to avoid closing the office.

If that is indeed what happens, if Jimmy has a lick of sense, he will tell Kim that he loves her and ask her to marry him and no matter what else happens in the show, the two of them will live happily ever after. I don't think I will ever be able to forgive the show runner if that does not come to pass.

Like most men, Jimmy does much, much better with a loving woman by his side and Kim would be just about the perfect match for him. Don't miss this opportunity, Jimmy. Tell her you love her and ask her to marry you.

[Ohwell]

I don't think that Kim wants to marry Jimmy.  I think she cares for him a great deal but I don't believe she thinks he's husband material.

[Jextella]

Saul was likeable in BB and while he had connections galore and made some very scary suggestions a time or two, he was never in the meth-trade fray.  He was always on the outside.  It was a wierd balance that only Odenkirk could pull off as an actor (in the same way only Bryan Cranston could pull off Walter White).

Saul was generally happy and affable and financially secure.  With all this in mind, I like to think this is the ultimate direction Jimmy will go.

Ramping up the drama for Nacho and Mike and Chuck and Howard will help move things along.

Howard really hasn't shown himself to be a bad person.  The decision to keep Jimmy out of HHM was Chuck's.  Howard helped Jimmy get the Davis and Main job, and he has complimented him several times..

Where Kim is concerned, he's actually been very supportive. He paid her way through college - which is a big deal.  His only sin was to put her in doc review a time or two when clients were lost.  

And, even when Jimmy came to talk to him about settling Sandpiper, he said in a huff that Jimmy will get his money.  He could have easily threatened Jimmy to find a way to not have to pay him, but he didn't.  

And, he's been beyond patient and genereous with Chuck's illness.  I'm sure there would be a way to wrestle him out of the firm but he kept on going.  

Other than kowtowing to Chuck's wishes where Jimmy and likely Kim were concerned, Howard has been a pretty up front and decent guy.  

Edited June 15, 2017 by Jextella

[Auntie Anxiety]

Unless Kim somehow gets to that meeting she was going to, her client is going to end up paying taxes to two states, something she told him he could avoid but only had two weeks to achieve.

[Gobi]

7 minutes ago, Jextella said:

Saul was likeable in BB and while he had connections galore and made some very scary suggestions a time or two, he was never in the meth-trade fray.  He was always on the outside.  It was a wierd balance that only Odenkirk could pull off as an actor (in the same way only Bryan Cranston could pull off Walter White).

The other thing is that Saul was generally happy and affable and financially secure.  With all this in mind, I like to think this is what we'll continue to see. 

Ramping up the drama for Nacho and Mike and Chuck and Howard will help move things along.

Howard really hasn't shown himself to be a bad person.  The decision to keep Jimmy out of HHM was Chuck's.  Howard helped Jimmy get the Davis and Main job, and he has complimented him several times over.

Where Kim is concerned, he's actually been very supportive. He paid her way through college - which is a big deal.  His only sin was to put her in doc review a time or two when clients were lost.  

And, even when Jimmy came to talk to him about settling Sandpiper, he said in a huff that Jimmy will get his money.  He could have easily threatened Jimmy to find a way to not have to pay him, but he didn't.  

And, he's been beyond patient and genereous with Chuck's illness.  I'm sure there would be a way to wrestle him out of the firm but he kept on going.  

Other than kowtowing to Chuck's wishes where Jimmy and likely Kim were concerned, Howard has been a pretty up front and decent guy.  

I agree with this. Howard may be unlikable in some ways, yet I think he is the most upright of all the characters (excluding Kim) in the show. I thought his suggestion to Chuck was a gracious way of giving Chuck a chance to retire with his dignity intact. 

[DrSpaceman73]

Surprisingly Nacho is the one that has grown on me the most this season. 

Chuck's answer to everything is to sue somebody.  Don't like the insurance rates, sue the company.  (and even if you manage to do this, you have to get insurance SOMEWHERE, it gets you nowhere, all the other companies will just give you the same rates or higher)  Don't like being forced out, sue the company.  Your brother makes you mad, drag him to court somehow.  I find him particularly irritating having previously been in a situation with a business partner using medical excuses for not working and at the same time trying to take all the money he could from the company.  He is such an ass.  And he hides beyond the law to justify it all.  As long as everything is legal, there is no other standard for him.  Frankly he is lucky he got away with what he has for so long with his "condition". 

Essentially the decision to fight over Kim's client is ruining the law careers of both Chuck and Jimmy. 

I felt very bad for Irene and what Jimmy did to her, turning her friends against her. 

I feel for bad for Kim as well.  I like Jimmy, he is a fun character, an interesting character, but he is not for Kim.  And yes my impression was she fell asleep at the wheel.  They just aren't right for each other.  Obviously they don't end up together.  Hopefully for her sake they split up sooner rather than later, to save her career. 

8 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I agree with this. Howard may be unlikable in some ways, yet I think he is the most upright of all the characters (excluding Kim) in the show. I thought his suggestion to Chuck was a gracious way of giving Chuck a chance to retire with his dignity intact. 

Yeah I am not the biggest fan of Howard, but you can't fault most of his motives or decisions.  He even tried to warn CHuck before he appeared in court about Jimmy that it was a bad idea, but Chuck would not listen. 

[DrSpaceman73]

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I was flipping back and forth between BCS and the NBA Finals, so I need to watch again, but a few thoughts.

1) Jimmy was despicable for turning all the old ladies against Irene.  Scamming jerks in bars, his brother, etc. is one thing, but being so mean to Irene was over the line. 

2) I liked Chuck in fighting mode.  Howard deserves whatever Chuck does to him for trying to push him out now.  If he had done it earlier, before he made such progress,  I could have understood it more.  Chuck is officially the more likable (or less detestable) McGill brother in my book...at least for now.  

3) Kim's crash was just like the foreshadowing when the cell phone alarm suddenly woke her up after seemingly almost no time had passed.  I loved the way they didn't show her dozing off, just the aftermath.  

4) I loved the Madrigal scene. As soon as I saw the guy zipping down the hall on the segway I thought "Madrigal?"

5) It seem like Hector might have gotten himself clipped by the cartel before long even if Nacho hadn't switched his pills.  You don't disrespect a man like Don Eladio.  

6) I am wondering if Kim's crash, rather than alienating her, might push her back into Jimmy's arms, with bad long term consequences.  

I disagree about Howard and Chuck.  Howard and the firm have bent over backwards to keep Chuck in practice and to protect him from the real world consequences of his psychiatric problem.  Now part of that was not altruistic but because of harm to the firm, but still, they have done it.  But then CHuck went and was made to look foolish in front of several lawyers and now their is no hiding it.  The damage to the firm is almost irreparable.  The insurance carrier now knows the truth and can't be hidden from.  Howards suggestion is really best for everyone involved.  ANd he is right, while CHuck is "better", he is not "normal".  I loved the shot as well in his home where he stated 'you have the lights on!", then they show on small lamp in the other room. No CHuck, still not normal.  How is everyone going to react in court when you start naming things off you see in the middle of a case? 

 

Howard is trying to do what is best for the firm.  Chuck is trying to do what is best for him, as he always does. 

[Bannon]

58 minutes ago, Ronin Jackson said:

Jimmy manipulating the ladies to turn on poor Irene was definitely a big leap towards becoming Saul Goodman, but I wonder if it's really that far removed from the warm, charismatic Jimmy we were introduced to earlier. Even if his intent was never harmful, Jimmy has never been above manipulating old people for his personal gain. Now he's crossed the line into potentially ruining a poor old lady's simple existence for his personal gain, but it's only a nudge of desperation that got him there.

I'm impressed once again with how Gilligan and Gould handle the evolution of characters over time. This is quite unique to their shows. Look at some of the other great dramas... The Sopranos, The Wire, Mad Men, The Shield, etc... the characters at the end of the show are not necessarily that different from how they started (I might give Mad Men a slight exception there). But In Gilligan's shows the characters completely transform. For a while it was hard to see how Jimmy would become the unsavory Saul Goodman, but now we are seeing it happen and it's easier to see that the signs were always there.

I agree, with regard to Gilligan's  and Gould's strength. I remember writing, in a season one episode thread, that Jimmy wanted two things in life, that normal people accomplish all the time. He wanted to work alongside his brother in a business, in this case, as a lawyer in a law firm, and he wanted to be around Kim. That was the extent of his ambition, and if those two somewhat modest goals had been met, he might have been very content. Despite the fact, however, that he is more intelligent than average, and has a great capacity for work, these relatively modest goals were proving elusive for him, and now the first one is gone completely, and the 2nd one does not feel secure. He's like two tectonic plates rubbing past each other, and the loss of the first goal has increased the pressure along the two plates, and it is only the tenuous second goal that is keeping things together. Once that goes, the quake is going to produce a guy who is willing to pursue considerable evil, as opposed to chiseling the dishonest, greedy, jerks he encounters in saloons, out of  small amounts of money.  

[ShadowFacts]

4 minutes ago, Gobi said:

I agree with this. Howard may be unlikable in some ways, yet I think he is the most upright of all the characters (excluding Kim) in the show. I thought his suggestion to Chuck was a gracious way of giving Chuck a chance to retire with his dignity intact. 

I can't blame him for trying to get Chuck to go gentle into that good night.  But the timing -- right after finding out HHM would have to pay double what it has been paying for malpractice premiums, seems like he's more motivated by that than by being gracious to Chuck.  He wasn't just humoring Chuck all this time out of the goodness of his heart.  If he wants Chuck out, he's going to have to buy out his share.  It would be a good business decision to part ways with Chuck, but why on earth would he think he could do it without paying. 

[Bannon]

34 minutes ago, DrSpaceman73 said:

Surprisingly Nacho is the one that has grown on me the most this season. 

Chuck's answer to everything is to sue somebody.  Don't like the insurance rates, sue the company.  (and even if you manage to do this, you have to get insurance SOMEWHERE, it gets you nowhere, all the other companies will just give you the same rates or higher)  Don't like being forced out, sue the company.  Your brother makes you mad, drag him to court somehow.  I find him particularly irritating having previously been in a situation with a business partner using medical excuses for not working and at the same time trying to take all the money he could from the company.  He is such an ass.  And he hides beyond the law to justify it all.  As long as everything is legal, there is no other standard for him.  Frankly he is lucky he got away with what he has for so long with his "condition". 

Essentially the decision to fight over Kim's client is ruining the law careers of both Chuck and Jimmy. 

I felt very bad for Irene and what Jimmy did to her, turning her friends against her. 

I feel for bad for Kim as well.  I like Jimmy, he is a fun character, an interesting character, but he is not for Kim.  And yes my impression was she fell asleep at the wheel.  They just aren't right for each other.  Obviously they don't end up together.  Hopefully for her sake they split up sooner rather than later, to save her career. 

Yeah I am not the biggest fan of Howard, but you can't fault most of his motives or decisions.  He even tried to warn CHuck before he appeared in court about Jimmy that it was a bad idea, but Chuck would not listen. 

It really shouldnt be forgotten that Chuck's pitch to win back Mesa Verde was itself unethical, in that his pitch reveolved around his particular skills, without revealing how his his contention that electiricity was attacking him would force him to work in unacceptable conditions, and had a history of rendering him unexpectedly incapacitated. Chuck's a towering hypocrite.

Howar;d's not a malicious guy at all,  he's just kind of a pompous dope without a record of accomplishment to match the pomposity. 

(edit) Well, I'll correct myself, by observing that Howard's treatment of KIm, after she landed Mesa Verde, had a stupidly malicious tone, which has cost HHM dearly. Stupid, ego-driven, malice is quite frequently an expensive luxury. Dumb, dumb, dumb.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Bannon

[benteen]

I hope that Jimmy does lose the Sandpiper money.  He would deserve it.  But somehow I think he won’t because it would likely lead to his permanent disbarment.  Quite frankly, I find it unrealistic that he wouldn’t be exposed for what he’s doing considering he called HHM, confronted Howard about it and that Irene knows.  I don’t think Irene would ever give up Jimmy but I’m sure someone from HHM or Davis and Man could persuade her to talk and she’s likely to let something slip.

[shapeshifter]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

The saddest part of the whole Irene story was Irene crying, "I don't care about the settlement, I just want things to be the way they used to be."  Because they never will.  No matter how nice they are in the future, Irene will know that their friendship isn't deep enough to withstand a few rumors and a new pair of walking shoes. 

Maybe it's because my not-so-sweet and not so athletic mother is in an assisted living apartment, but it really hurt me to see what Jimmy did to Irene.

I thought the "Fall" title was going to refer to the Killer Skecher shoes Jimmy laced onto poor Irene's feet. But it seems the lawsuit that I recalled reading about for the "rocker bottom" shoes was only about lies in advertising, not injuries: http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/17/nation/la-na-nn-skechers-20120517

 

Kim getting her car unstuck reminded me of myself at her age so much that I didn't see it as a sort of Chekhov's Car Incident or premonition of car doom.

[tennisgurl]

I really love that Howard blasts jazz as he parks his car. This show does a great job at adding character details to even the supporting cast. 

It looks like Saul is just about here. I have to say, manipulating old women into turning on a friend, and making poor sweet Irene cry her eyes out because of his manipulatively, all to make money. And the thing is, he wasn't wrong, exactly. Settling was for the best, and holding out wasn't helping anyone, but he just went about it in the shadiest way possible. Really, it's just sad seeing more and more of the Dark Origin Story of Saul Goodman. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[peggy06]

10 hours ago, LuciaMia said:

Chuck may think he's getting better and more able to tolerate electrical currents, but he's far from being on the upswing. As Howard observed when Chuck was gripping that table lamp, "This is not what 'fine' looks like." Chuck looks pretty haggard and its obvious he's white-knuckling all his forays   outside.

I like that they're doing it this way. Treatment isn't an overnight miracle cure.

[tennisgurl]

Poor Kim. I hope she's alright, and can get this together. It's bad enough that her boyfriend is turning into Darth Lawyer, now she's trapped in the desert with her work literally being blown away. 

Nacho really has had a great season, hasn't he? He might be a criminal, but I still felt awful for him while he begged his dad to just go along with whatever happens. Also felt bad for his dad. You can see this whole history between them in just that one scene in the kitchen. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by tennisgurl

[rue721]

45 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

Maybe it's because my not-so-sweet and not so athletic mother is in an assisted living apartment, but it really hurt me to see what Jimmy did to Irene.

Yes, it was so painful to watch. And isn't Irene the same woman who Jimmy let keep her last twenty-odd dollars when she said it was all she had until allowance day? I mean, she actually had reason to trust Jimmy, this was an actual betrayal on his part. Just so hurtful. I know in the grand scheme he didn't do that much to her, but my heart broke for her anyway.

I still do have a soft spot for Jimmy (I even have one for Saul!) and I understand his rationalizations. But this is the first time we've really seen him hurt someone's feelings, isn't it? Maybe aside from Chuck, when he switched the numbers, maybe aside from Rebecca when he got her to come to the hearing...

[bookrat]

I think the irony would be that Irene and the old ladies figure out Jimmy has been playing them and turn all the Sand Castle residents against him. Aren't they are big part of his current clients. So he gets the settlement money but loses most of his loyal clients.

[Irlandesa]

8 hours ago, Atlanta said:

Yes, Irene should have consulted with her friends. She can't assume their situations, but Jimmy should have framed it gentler when he met with the other ladies like, "Maybe she doesn't know? Talk to her!" Etc.

Nice would have been riskier for what he wanted.  Her friends would have still believed she was representing them well.  She could have explained her reasoning.  She could have even offered to set up a meeting with a lawyer to help explain the status of the case and why they didn't think they should settle.  They may have agreed with Irene and the lawyers. 

8 hours ago, iMonrey said:

That's what I was wondering. Irene told Jimmy she'd been talking to someone over at D&M. Didn't they take the Sandpiper case when Jimmy went to work for them? So why did Jimmy go to Howard? I can't remember the connection between HHM and Davis and Main.

When HHM realized the full scope of the lawsuit, they decided it'd be a good idea to partner with another law firm. That firm was Davis & Main.  IIRC, when Jimmy joined Davis & Main, he was going to be on the client side of things and worked with Erin which is why Irene mentioned her but HHM is still a primary player.

 

6 hours ago, Auntie Anxiety said:

The lawyers might have hand-picked Irene because she was non-confrontational, wanted to be liked, and her eyes probably glazed over before the end of the second paragraph in letters from the law firm. Are you telling me there is no retired lawyer or accountant amongst the entire bunch of litigants? ... The firms are culpable in all this, at least in my mind.

From what I've found on Google, it's the court who appoints the lead plaintiff...not the lawyers.  That'd be a conflict of interest since one of the responsibilities of the lead plaintiff is hiring, and potentially firing, the lawyers.  Irene was the client whose will Jimmy was working on when he discovered the erroneous charges so it'd make sense she was selected as "Litigant 0."

As for whether or not she should be consulting the others.  I think she has the responsibility to represent their best interests as a group.  And she has to consult them when she thinks they should settle.  But I don't think she has to continuously be in touch with them as the logistics of that could be difficult when a class action isn't located in one living facility like this.

6 hours ago, MissBluxom said:

 

Many people here are upset with the way Jimmy treated Irene. Somehow, I don't see Irene having much of a problem for long. I'd guess she will easily be able to resolve the problem with her friends just by explaining that she didn't understand her role in the Class Action Suit but as soon as it was explained to her, she immediately told the lawyers to give her friends the money.

Those ladies wouldn't be very good friends if they weren't willing to accept that. I don't see that Jimmy had many better choices and I think the way he arranged things, it should work out well for all the ladies.

I think the fact that they didn't go to Irene and instead let Jimmy manipulate them into hating her probably means it's going to be hard to repair.  Even if she does decide to settle, they still probably think she put her interest over theirs until it backfired on her. 

6 hours ago, Jextella said:

Howard really hasn't shown himself to be a bad person.

IA.  He's getting a lot of slack for the settlement but we only know Jimmy's perspective as he was trying to get the women and Howard to settle.  A decision whether to settle or not is not a case of right and ethical vs. wrong and unethical.  (Just as there's not necessarily a "better" when it comes to deciding whether or not to take payouts or a lump sum after winning the lottery).  All we do know is that Howard has actually been involved with the case while Jimmy, presumably, has not since he left Davis & Main.

Edited June 14, 2017 by Irlandesa

[Dobian]

I felt bad for Irene when she ran out of the bingo room.  Jimmy really set her up and her friends were cruel.  Of course now he has his money to launch his career as Saul.

I had a feeling all season that Chuck and Howard were going to have a rift.

Thought that the switched pills were going to cause Hector to stroke out right away.  Guess that's in the finale.

That film edit of Kim's accident was something else, almost made me jump.  She obviously fell asleep at the wheel and they did a time jump to the impact.  Scary.

[PeterPirate]

Jimmy didn't get just Irene's friends to turn against her. When she hit Bingo the entire room went silent.  Irene put up with a lot of shunning before she finally cracked. 

This may turn out better for Irene. Before this she was just another Sandpiper resident. Pretty soon she will be the person who got everyone else thousands of dollars. 

Edited June 14, 2017 by PeterPirate

[Wiendish Fitch]

Jimmy has truly been evolving into "Saul" this season, and in this episode? He's there. Saul Goodman has officially arrived, folks, and there's no going back. 

Here's the thing: Jimmy has done some questionable, even awful things since the beginning of the show, but they were rooted mostly in a desire to help others, and he usually inflicted the most damage on those who really had it coming. In his own warped way, he had a certain code of honor and ethics. Here? He wanted the money, needed the money, so instead of sitting Irene down and giving her sound, practical advice (which, by the way, he could have given as her friend, not as her lawyer), he pulls the cruelest, most emotionally manipulative con I've seen him pull, and against someone who didn't deserve it in the slightest.

Was Irene being foolish and impractical about not settling right away? Sure she was; after all, she and her pals are far from spring chickens, and they only have so much time before the Grim Reaper comes to call, so settle and enjoy the money while you still have time. But Jimmy should have simply told her that (or gotten someone else to tell her that), rather than play the evil puppet master and inflict psychological torture on a poor old woman who probably has very few close friends or family in her life. Only villains in Hitchcock films do that sort of thing, and Jimmy had very few, if any, qualms about doing so. Well, they have money now, but there's no guarantee Irene's friends have "forgiven" her and taken her back in the fold, which means the settlement will be cold comfort indeed. Nice one, Saul. Hope the cash is worth it, dickhead.

Y'know? There is something seriously wrong with the McGill character gene on the men's side: Dad was a gullible, short-sighted chump, Chuck's a pompous moral hypocrite, and Jimmy is a con artist and blossoming sociopath. 

God, I feel so awful for Kim. I know I'm stupidly stating the obvious, but that car accident is definitely an omen... and I'm not just talking about the ramifications with her new client. More terrible things are waiting for Kim, I just know it.

[ilovetrashtv]

Does anyone remember where Jimmy is living right now? In the nail salon or what?