S01.E05: And the Winner Is... (The Oscars of 1963)

[Drogo]

Quote

Bette is on track to win a record-breaking third Best Actress Oscar and Joan and Hedda launch a clandestine campaign against her.

 

 

 

[Growsonwalls]

Damn Joan. I knew what happened but it was still brutal to watch her do that to Bette. 

By the way here is the actual footage of Joan accepting the award. They really got her outfit, makeup and ensemble right.

Great episode. 

[voiceover]

Thank you Ryan Murphy!  If your point was: We did it to ourselves! -- then, congrats!

Edited April 3, 2017 by voiceover
Yeah, I took out all the physical reax. Because it was gross. Apologies.

[merylinkid]

Wow.   If you loved Joan that was her moment, but you still felt for her being alone WITHOUT the Oscar at the end.

If you loved Bette, that was just brutal.   Joan going on stage to accept the award YOU were nominated for.   And you got to watch her do it up close and personal.

Was Joan really mean to little Patty Duke????    Wow.   

Also, for someone who didn't want to be seen as an "old broad" the silver ensemble --especially the hair -- was a really bad idea.   

Who played Anne Bancroft?   I couldn't find it on IMDB. 

[GreekGeek]

It's a mark of an excellent show that I knew what happened and still was on the edge of my seat. I loved Sarah Paulson as Geraldine Page, but who played Anne Bancroft and George Cukor?

I loved that final shot of Joan at the edge of her bed, with reality sinking in. She got her moment in the spotlight and her chance to spite Bette, but she had to have known all along that the Oscar wasn't hers to keep.

[Primetimer]

It's the 1963 (ahem) Academy Awards, and Joan Crawford has a crazy plan to snatch Bette Davis's Oscar. Spoiler: it totally worked.

View the full article

[Arynm]

Holy hell, that was brutal! What a mean, spiteful thing to do. She took such glee in it, but it's very telling that she went home to an empty house to stare at a Oscar that isn't and will never be hers, while Bette was surrounded by friends. Such an empty victory for Joan.

[DasFlavorPup]

Up until now, every episode of Feud I've walked away from feeling a mixture of pity, sadness, and contempt for Joan Crawford.  After this one?  I just wanted to kick her in the tits.

I loved the bit at the end where Joan was prompted to take a photo with the other winners, and we pan to said other winners all staring at her with clear "Bitch, please" looks on their faces.  And that whole sequence where Joan led David Lean backstage and back to the main stage without missing a beat was fascinating to watch.  After that, the one scene that stood out to me was the phone conversation with Geraldine Page.  I watched it, thinking I was seeing Joan Crawford clearly, blantantly, ruthlessly, manipulate and scare poor Geraldine Page into staying home for the Oscars, and thinking that I always thought Geraldine Page was a tougher lady than that.  Then she hangs up the phone, turns to Rip Torn, and makes it very clear that she knew the whole time what was going on.  Loved it.

Edited April 3, 2017 by DasFlavorPup

[ThatsDarling]

3 hours ago, GreekGeek said:

It's a mark of an excellent show that I knew what happened and still was on the edge of my seat. I loved Sarah Paulson as Geraldine Page, but who played Anne Bancroft and George Cukor?

I loved that final shot of Joan at the edge of her bed, with reality sinking in. She got her moment in the spotlight and her chance to spite Bette, but she had to have known all along that the Oscar wasn't hers to keep.

Anne Bancroft was played by Serinda Swan. The resemblance is pretty strong.

[CraftyHazel]

Well, I'm a Bette fan from way back and I knew all the details, but wow, was that brutal to see.  I had sympathy for Joan every episode until this one, even while not really liking her much.  But that disappeared with that childish, petty display.  How calculating Joan was!!

[TobinAlbers]

10 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Who played Anne Bancroft?   I couldn't find it on IMDB. 

Serinda Swan

https://instagram.com/p/BSZv12pDhnk/

Both Geraldine and Anne saw through Joan's ploy but man was it a great mix of sadness, respect, pity, and some fear that there but for the grace of God would they end up like her.

So funny that it took me a moment to realize they Geraldine's Rip was Rip Torn.

The old Hollywood girl squads are so fascinating. Bette and Olivia, the Joan/Olivia feud, the younger factions of Geraldine and Anne. 

And boy howdy, Olivia. 'I didn't turn my back on my sister. I didn't see that she was there.'

Cold.Blooded.

Edited April 3, 2017 by TobinAlbers

[mochamajesty]

Damn, girl.  Joan was a rjght bitch.

Susan sold Bette's devastation.

Serinda was great. It is nice to see younger actresses hold their own with Lange and Sarandon.

Yeah silver was a horrible choice.

[Growsonwalls]

I know Joan was a conniving bitch this episode but I still felt for her. 

Bette was disappointed and devastated at the Oscar loss, but you could tell that even with that disappointment she had a strong sense of self. She had friends who supported her. Her spirit was hurt but not broken.

Joan's insecurity and lack of any meaningful inner life drove her to do such a petty thing. She got her moment in the spotlight but it was an empty victory. It wasn't her Oscar. 

[TheOtherOne]

Fact-Checking Feud: The Ugly Truth About Joan Crawford and Bette Davis’s 1963 Oscar Showdown

[enoughcats]

22 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Also, for someone who didn't want to be seen as an "old broad" the silver ensemble --especially the hair -- was a really bad idea.   

I've got to disagree a bit about the silver choice.  Back then, TV was black and white.  Nobody saw that dress as silver, just as sparkling like diamonds-bright. 

Newspapers the next day would have had photos...again in Black and White.  

Movie Magazines- a smaller audience would have some, but not all color. Joan's fans would have bought every magazine for the pictures and they would have loved the silver because it would set off the diamonds.  

Still getting over how brutal an episode this was. 

[merylinkid]

2 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

 

31 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

Also, for someone who didn't want to be seen as an "old broad" the silver ensemble --especially the hair -- was a really bad idea.   

I've got to disagree a bit about the silver choice.  Back then, TV was black and white.  Nobody saw that dress as silver, just as sparkling like diamonds-bright. 

 

But the silver against her black hair would not be sparkling and showing off the diamonds.   It would just look white.   In other words, grey hair on an old broad.

[Mumbles]

Quote

 After that, the one scene that stood out to me was the phone conversation with Geraldine Page.  I watched it, thinking I was seeing Joan Crawford clearly, blantantly, ruthlessly, manipulate and scare poor Geraldine Page into staying home for the Oscars, and thinking that I always thought Geraldine Page was a tougher lady than that.  Then she hangs up the phone, turns to Rip Torn, and makes it very clear that she knew the whole time what was going on.  Loved it.

I agree, that was really something. Plus afterward, I went to Wikipedia; Page was 37-38 when this happened, still a young woman but no ingenue who was going to let herself get pushed around, but agreed, while watching it I thought that was where the scene was going.

[voiceover]

I made myself sit through it again.  I know I picked a gross way of describing it the first time.  But it was all just so...hideous.  

Through the haze, loved Serinda Swan's Anne Bancroft.  The real Annie was like that - direct, no bullshit.  I felt like she was the only winner.  In more ways than the Oscar.

[Dejana]

19 minutes ago, TheOtherOne said:

Fact-Checking Feud: The Ugly Truth About Joan Crawford and Bette Davis’s 1963 Oscar Showdown

Interesting, BD being in attendance at the ceremony (as well as her brother) was left out of the show, and Geraldine Page officially anyway sounded awestruck by Crawford and honestly relieved about avoiding the Oscar rigmarole. 

I know the Price Waterhouse line was probably written before this year's debacle but ha ha.

[voiceover]

All that, and it was Kate, the one who shunned the Awards for decades, who made it to 3 first.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, merylinkid said:

Also, for someone who didn't want to be seen as an "old broad" the silver ensemble --especially the hair -- was a really bad idea. 

By that point she wasn't really going to be able to not be seen as an old broad no matter how much she tried (which she may have known deep down as there was always focus on showing off her legs and so on), but I'd say it was the teasing that looked worse than the color and it matching the dress. The quality isn't great but this interview around that period was a better version of the hair:

 

1 hour ago, Dejana said:

Geraldine Page officially anyway sounded awestruck by Crawford and honestly relieved about avoiding the Oscar rigmarole. 

That would have been a more believable and also a sadder commentary at someone who had so little idea of Joan still naively believing the best of her, but I guess it wasn't "good TV", or whatever Ryan Murphy's version of that is. They should have stuck with it.

[Valny]

I'm loved that duel pull in close ups of Joan and Bette when they first see each other backstage. The tension! The piercing looks!  Good stuff!

As much as I love BD, Bancroft was just as deserving in The Miracle Worker. And damn Patty Duke was friggin', amazing.

I was looking in a book I have called Bette & Joan- The Divine Feud and Davis said she was "paralyzed with shock" when she heard Bancroft's name. Sarandon did a good job of conveying that.

[AgentRXS]

Ugh, I am so hating Jessica Lange's portrayal in this. She is just not Joan Crawford. I feel like hers is a case where plastic surgery works against her.  Joan Crawford had a very expressive face and Lange's face is just so frozen tight that its hindering the role.  She's only convincing when in scenes highlighting the pathetic lifestyle of an aging media-hungry sexpot; but then, that might not be too far from reality for her. I hate to be so cruel, but Sarandon is acting rings around her.  I'm just seeing another variation of one of her AHS roles; not JC.

Edited April 3, 2017 by AgentRXS

[Willowsmom]

George Cuckoo was John Rubinstein.

[Pete Martell]

43 minutes ago, AgentRXS said:

Ugh, I am so hating Jessica Lange's portrayal in this. She is just not Joan Crawford. I feel like hers is a case where plastic surgery works against her.  Joan Crawford had a very expressive face and Lange's face is just so frozen tight that its hindering the role.  She's only convincing when in scene's highlighting the pathetic lifestyle of an aging media-hungry sexpot; but then, that might not be too far from reality for her. I hate to be so cruel, but Sarandon is acting rings around her.  I'm just seeing another variation of one of her AHS roles; not JC.

When I saw some of Jessica's interviews she said she didn't have much time to do research on Joan and basically just read about all the horrible abuse Joan suffered as a girl and felt that this made her who she was. That's one of the problems with "playing" Joan - you either get a gorgon or you get a lost soul. The real Joan is something I don't think anyone else can ever capture, because she was buried so deep down. 

I think Susan is giving a decent performance but it's tough sometimes to remember she's supposed to be Bette Davis, as when she tries it often feels like an impersonation.

I guess that's one of the drawbacks of having a show about two women who are so remembered for such distinct, campy personas. They are parodies of parodies of parodies to many. I think what works of this show works mostly just for the spectacle, or a commentary on women in Hollywood, or for newer fans who have little knowledge of Bette or Joan and can enjoy it all for the first time. 

[voiceover]

23 minutes ago, Willowsmom said:

George Cuckoo was John Rubinstein.

It's Cukor -- I expect that's autocorrect at it again! but from what I know of him, he'd've chuckled at the typo -- all those years & all those "Women's Pictures" probably made him nuts.

[doingthejackal]

3 hours ago, mochamajesty said:

Can we get a Feud: Olivia and Joan?

Just sayin

And after that season, Feud: Anne and Shirley. I'm already dreaming of The Turning Point episodes...

I feel like this episode would have benefitted by expanding the plot into a second episode, yet I can't tell you exactly what I would move. It's just a general feeling that there were emotional beats that didn't get as fully plumbed. Or maybe I just so enjoyed this episode more than the others before it that I wish there was more of it. 

[methodwriter85]

There was something kind of poignant about watching Jessica Lange and Susan Sarandon enacting an Oscar ceremony. Both of them were once continual Oscar contenders, and each won, Jessica twice and Susan once. But neither of them are likely to ever get Oscars again. There had to be some real meta-ness creeping into that performance with them.

I now kind of want Meryl Streep to show up as Katherine Hepburn.

Natalie Wood is one of my favorite actresses, and man, we just missed seeing her a part of this by a year, both before and after. I wonder who would have played her.

Not that she really looks like her, but Ryan should've gotten Abigail Breslin to play Patty Duke. That would have been a nice wink to Oscar history- having one of the youngest nominees playing one of the youngest winners.

Edited April 3, 2017 by methodwriter85

[NowVoyager]

Well, I'm a Bette Davis fan to my core---

^^^^Hello? Note my nom de plume & avatar (That. Hat. Gives me life!)

But! Even I thought Anne Bancroft was well-deserving of her Oscar for "The Miracle Worker." So, I don't feel like the real tragedy here was BD losing the award. The devil is in the details--- the mean girl antics of Joan & Hedda. Bette & Joan's personalities were so different it caused them to butt heads (not to mention all the behind the scenes manipulations). It's a shame. They had so much in common. 'All this time they could have been friends.'

Edited April 6, 2017 by NowVoyager

[vb68]

That was mesmerizing.

Joan was really someone to be pitied.  I was hoping she would have a moment of clarity and see Hedda Hopper as the viper she truly was and finally realize Hedda was preying on her vulnerabilities and worst instincts and finally tell her  to FUCK OFF. Sigh.

That stunt at the Oscars wasn't just bad manners. It was deliberate cruelty. I know Bette was a big girl and could dish it right back when she felt like, but when someone is that deliberate, it has to hurt.

Loved the scenes with Geraldine Page and Anne Bancroft. Anne especially came off like a real sweetheart. I was initially surprised at Page's phone chat, but it made sense she was playing along.  Also, since I am mostly familiar with Rip Torn from his time on The Larry Sanders Show, it was very interesting to see a young and handsome version of him.

Loved we got more Olivia. I would like to see some of the early days with her and Bette, and how Bette stuck up for her. Who would be a good Joan Fontaine if they ever go that route?

Surprised we didn't get  more Sinatra.

As much as I'm liking it, to me Sarandon is still very uneven. I think she has the harder job as Bette was so iconic in both her look and voice. The voice comes and goes. It doesn't help here that Sarandon's own looks are iconic as well.

15 hours ago, Dejana said:

I know the Price Waterhouse line was probably written before this year's debacle but ha ha.

That definitely got a guffaw from me.

12 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

Not that she really looks like her, but Ryan should've gotten Abigail Breslin to play Patty Duke. That would have been a nice wink to Oscar history- having one of the youngest nominees playing one of the youngest winners.

Hmm, now I wish there was a Tatum O'Neal cameo too just for fun. 

Edited April 3, 2017 by vb68

[GreekGeek]

9 minutes ago, vb68 said:

 

Loved we got more Olivia. I would like to see some of the early days with her and Bette, and how Bette stuck up for her. Who would be a good Joan Fontaine if they ever go that route?

 

Maybe Laura Linney? 

Quote

And after that season, Feud: Anne and Shirley. I'm already dreaming of The Turning Point episodes...

Were Bancroft and MacLaine rivals in real life? Or did they just play them in the movies? If they ever do make that "feud," there could be a cameo of the aged Davis saying of Bancroft, "Look! She's playing me!" (The Turning Point was a remake of sorts of another Davis movie, Old Acquaintance.)

Edited April 3, 2017 by GreekGeek

[Spartan Girl]

Hedda Hopper was Rita Skeeter incarnate.

I came into this of little knowledge of what went down at the Oscars back then, but WOW. Joan Crwaford was a miserable human being. Manipulating her way into accepting another actress' Oscar just to spite Bette? What was the point? It wasn't like it was actually for her own performance, she didn't earn it! What a hollow, petty victory. Then again, this was the woman who stepped into her daughter's role in a soap opera while she was hospitalized despite the obvious age conflict -- or was that part of Mommie Dearest not true?

Loved seeing young Patty Duke and her little dog. Miss her.

LOL at the stink eye the winners gave Joan.

Too bad Anne Bancroft couldn't accept her own Oscar. Maybe Bette wouldn't have taken it so hard then.

[Chaos Theory]

I have felt bad for Joan Crawford.  People get snubbed all the time.  Before this...and after.  However I think she crossed a line.  What she did was cruel.  

However whatever joy it gave her was short lived.  I thought it was interesting that Bette had all her friends and supporters around her to comfort her.  Joan went home alone to that big quiet house.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Chaos Theory

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, Spartan Girl said:

I came into this of little knowledge of what went down at the Oscars back then, but WOW. Joan Crwaford was a miserable human being. Manipulating her way into accepting another actress' Oscar just to spite Bette? What was the point? It wasn't like it was actually for her own performance, she didn't earn it! What a hollow, petty victory. Then again, this was the woman who stepped into her daughter's role in a soap opera while she was hospitalized despite the obvious age conflict -- or was that part of Mommie Dearest not true?

Yes, it was true. No video seems to exist as most soaps were not kept in those days.

 

[ghoulina]

This was a good one. It was really fun to watch all the Oscar goings-on. But at the same time, I found myself asking - "did she really do that??" over and over. I knew vaguely what happened, with her accepting for the winner. But I didn't realize the depths to which she went - did she talk to basically every nominee but Hepburn??? Campaigning with Hedda to get anyone but her co-star to win. Wow. I mean, that was just low. 

It's hard to feel sympathy for Joan in this episode. My heart really went out to Bette. She seemed like a woman who wasn't so much into the glitz and glam, but just really loved her craft and wanted to be appreciated for it. Sarandon really nailed it, because I found myself tearing up when I saw the look on her face after it all happened. 

But then there is Joan. Still alone in that big house and knowing that she didn't really win. It didn't accomplish anything in the end. She's still empty inside. Very sad all around.

9 hours ago, Valny said:

I was looking in a book I have called Bette & Joan- The Divine Feud and Davis said she was "paralyzed with shock" when she heard Bancroft's name. Sarandon did a good job of conveying that.

She really did!

Another thing that stood out to me - she was backstage. Ever since I started watching the Oscars, the nominees were in the audience. Did they used to do it differently? Did all the nominees hang out backstage? I found that interesting, because as shocked and hurt as Bette was - it wasn't seen by the live audience or captured on camera. 

[bmoore4026]

On 4/3/2017 at 6:51 AM, Pete Martell said:

Yes, it was true. No video seems to exist as most soaps were not kept in those days.

 

 

 

Mother of God!

Anyway, last night broke my heart.  Yeah, Bancroft's performance was the best one, but it still hurt when Bette lost.

And Joan really let her true bitchness shine through.  But her going home to an empty house and putting that Oscar that wasn't her's next to the one she earned felt like just desserts - she'll only have that one, while Bette will still have two.  And how could anyone be a c-word to sweet Patty Duke.  I'm amazed Joan didn't beat poor Patty with wire hangers right then and there.  My one consolation is that Joan is going to get pelted with plastic axes and popcorn while running down a theater aisle at, what I'm guessing, will be the premiere of that Maniac movie she did for William Castle.

I'm pretty sure Olivia De Havilland is a Disney Princess, in spite of her conflict with Joan Fontaine and them never speaking to each other even 'til Joan's dying day.

My hope for a future season of Feud - Marvel Comics.  All of it.  Not just the Stan Lee/Jack Kirby/Steve Ditko stuff either.

Edited April 4, 2017 by bmoore4026
Because it's while not will.

[Pete Martell]

18 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

She really did!

Another thing that stood out to me - she was backstage. Ever since I started watching the Oscars, the nominees were in the audience. Did they used to do it differently? Did all the nominees hang out backstage? I found that interesting, because as shocked and hurt as Bette was - it wasn't seen by the live audience or captured on camera. 

I think that was more common back then. In the Vanity Fair article linked above, the director of that Oscars said he was tempted to film backstage reactions but decided it would be too cruel.

[enoughcats]

25 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

Did they used to do it differently? Did all the nominees hang out backstage? I found that interesting, because as shocked and hurt as Bette was - it wasn't seen by the live audience or captured on camera. 

From watching back in the days of black and white TV, most of the actor nominees were shown as photographs because most weren't there.  But people who had won an Oscar earlier that night came from the side of the stage to accept their second (or even third) Oscar of the evening.  Not stars.  But producer director ...multiple Oscars did happen for the non-actors, especially when they were making multiple films a year.

[ghoulina]

42 minutes ago, enoughcats said:

From watching back in the days of black and white TV, most of the actor nominees were shown as photographs because most weren't there.

I find that very interesting. Maybe we should take this over to the "real life" thread, but why did so many nominees not show up? I haven't watched the Oscars in a few years (I'm over modern Hollywood), but when I was a kid and young woman I watched every year and I recall that most people showed up. 

[blaase]

 I am astonished at the amount of balls Joan had to pull off such an iconic stunt.  Joan found a way to  pull Bette down a peg, get under her skin and  grab all the spotlight that night!

[Chaos Theory]

No Ryan Murphy production is complete without an appearance from Sarah Paulson.  

[iMonrey]

I remember the days before political correctness when they were able to say "And the winner is" instead of "And the Oscar goes to." Sarah Paulson must have it written in her contract that she has to appear in every Ryan Murphy production.

This show may  not be Shakespeare but it's hella fun to watch.

[BingeyKohan]

This episode had been heavily hyped (or maybe I just pay disproportionate attention to entertainment press that would publish Ryan Murphy BTS interviews) but i thought it mostly lived up to it. The color theory/production design of the poolside chat between hedda and joan alone was decadently gorgeous, to say nothing of that backstage tracking shot that even swanned through the men's restroom. I loved how Joan was so checked out of her 'escort' duties that you feared the winning director would never even find the press room. The distorting plate that Lange held over her face to protect her make-up while her hair got silvered was a brilliant touch.

I have very little idea where the story is going from here, which I love. 

[kwnyc]

Quote

Sure, she won a Best Supporting Actress Oscar, but she gets shamed by Crawford for bringing her little purse dog to the Academy Awards. Crawford's right, too.

Actually, poor Patty was forced to bring her evil managers' dog to the ceremony. And if you haven't read "Call Me Anna," by the late, great Oscar winner, put it on your reading list right away.

Edited April 3, 2017 by Drogo
Quote formatting.

[Mindthinkr]

I especially loved the scene backstage when the Best Actress winner was announced and they showed Joan dropping the cigarette on the floor and grinding it out with her silver pump. Very poignant and a perfect reflection of how Joan was stomping on Bette's dreams. 

[AuntiePam]

That was the fastest hour of this show yet for me -- riveting. 

I do wish that we could have seen actual footage of the red carpet and the actors -- nobody looks like Gregory Peck.  That man was gorgeous.  The Maximilian Schell stand-in came close to the real thing though. 

It's interesting that the awards ceremony has changed so much over the years.  Oscars sitting on a table behind Bob Hope, presenters just presenting and not doing a routine.  Maybe that's why nominees didn't attend -- nobody was watching.

[vb68]

29 minutes ago, kwnyc said:

Actually, poor Patty was forced to bring her evil managers' dog to the ceremony.

Interesting. I was assuming it was basically a therapy/comfort dog. 

[Mindthinkr]

When I saw Joan sit Ms Bancroft's Oscar on her nightstand next to hers I noticed that it appeared to be already engraved. I might have gotten them mixed up but I thought they don't engrave them until after the ceremony as to prevent leaks of who the winners might be. 

[CraftyHazel]

2 hours ago, tvaddict44 said:

The 2 sisters Olivia and Joan  were my choice for the next feud.  That feud has always fascinated me because I can't imagine anything better to live your whole life into the 90's and Olivia is 100 with a sister.  I think I've read it was some rivalry over a man - makes it even sillier than it might have been.  I also thought Elizabeth Taylor and Richard Burton could make a good story.  Didn't I read that next season is going to be Charles and Diana?  Think I'll skip that one...

Not really over a man.  Mostly sibling rivalry to the extreme.  Olivia was 15 months older and became an actress first.  Joan decided to follow in her footsteps, which Olivia hated.  Olivia told her in no uncertain terms not to use the name de Havilland, because she didn't want Joan cashing in on her success.  So Joan used their stepfather's name, Fontaine, instead.

Joan really did claim that Olivia broke her collarbone when they were fighting as children.  Olivia was nominated for an Oscar before Joan was, but Joan won before Olivia did.  They fought and made up their whole lives.  More Here

Edited April 3, 2017 by Marmiarmo

[SmithW6079]

14 hours ago, DasFlavorPup said:

Up until now, every episode of Feud I've walked away from feeling a mixture of pity, sadness, and contempt for Joan Crawford.  After this one?  I just wanted to kick her in the tits.

I need to use this line somewhere, somehow. Brilliant.

I have a hard time with Catherine Zeta-Jones as Olivia de Havilland. Zeta-Jones just comes across as too big to be de Havilland, who just seems more petite.