Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[Absolom]

Based on my experience, there is no huge rush.  My daughter was allowed to schedule her procedure and it was almost a week later.  Remember Michelle had about an 18 week fetus and she waited for natural labor.  We lost a twin mid-pregnancy and went to almost 37 weeks to deliver both the live infant and the remains.  

[mynextmistake]

It sounds like Joy called Carlin and she came for the entire birth process. I’m really glad Joy had someone of her choosing with her during this time. And if Joy wanted to look nice for photos with her baby, then I’m glad she had someone to help her with that as well. I’m certainly not going to judge her for wanting her only pictoral memory of her baby to be as perfect as possible. 

I think whoever said Lauren is upset because Joy pulled ahead of her in the grief sweepstakes was dead on. What an awful piece of work that woman is. 

[BitterApple]

I'm glad Joy has Carlin. The Duggar kids have spent decades suppressing their feelings. I can't imagine they'd be a good source of support. 

[DangerousMinds]

6 hours ago, Lisa418722 said:

100% agree.  I'm southern myself (born in TN and live in GA now).  I don't say "y'all" a lot; mainly because I used to say it ALL the time. I tried to break myself of this habit after a northern "friend" called me out on it when I was at that age when it hurt my feelings. But please do not use "y'all" in a condolence posting.  But I do realize a lot of people use y'all, it just seems way too casual to me in this circumstance.  

Jessa did the same, ugh.

[MsJamieDornan]

3 hours ago, QuinnInND said:

In my case, the umbilical cord (which apparently was longer than most) got wrapped around her neck and strangled her. That was obvious when she was delivered.

Your story brings me to rears each time you mention it. Such heartache.

[DangerousMinds]

4 hours ago, Lunera said:

Looks like Carlin just took some shots in between their hospital photoshoot. The first picture looks posed. I would want pictures with my baby but this glam and posed photoshoot seems a bit much. Idk these people are weird. 

Completely staged. SMDH.

[MsJamieDornan]

4 hours ago, leighdear said:

Well, thank goodness somebody finally brought her eyeliner and curling iron.

Those pictures changed my feelings about the whole situation. They are all idiots.

[BitterApple]

I just checked out Jill's Instagram and she's getting slaughtered in the comments. I wish I could've read the responses to Lauren before she deleted her post. 

Eta: Wow, so I went down the Pickles rabbit hole and apparently six weeks ago someone posted on Joy's Instagram that her ultrasound video didn't look normal and urged her to see a doctor immediately. Was Joy winging it with lay midwives again? I understand the miscarriage wasn't preventable and she wouldn't have terminated anyways, but given how happy she seemed throughout the pregnancy, it doesn't seem like she knew anything was off until she went for the gender reveal. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by BitterApple

[Snow Fairy]

Some people commented that on the scan baby's head has too much fluid, and does not look ok. They even compared it with normal 10 week scan

Do you think it's possible they knew something is off, but still continued to pray to God and expect the best?

[Lunera]

She went to an ultrasound boutique for her 10 week scan, I doubt the people there are qualified to diagnose or recognize problems.  The boutique she went to offers a gender reveal special, I think she probably went back there for her 2nd ultrasound. 

[Lunera]

Went back to Joy's 1st ultrasound pic and found the comment. 

[Madtown]

2 hours ago, Lunera said:

Went back to Joy's 1st ultrasound pic and found the comment. 

I went back and looked at a lot of the comments and there were more saying that they wished Joy and Austin would've seen her comment. There was a comment from another sonographer that asked if anyone else thought the nuchal appeared thick. She said she wasn't trying to be negative, but hoped it was checked out. Another sonographer replied to this lady and said yes, that she did notice it and said it was likely chromosomal abnormalities.

[Albanyguy]

8 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I think whoever said Lauren is upset because Joy pulled ahead of her in the grief sweepstakes was dead on. What an awful piece of work that woman is. 

She wouldn't name her new baby "Annabell" as a "tribute" to Joy and Austin's baby (and to continue the "A" theme she started with Asa). Would she?

[LongDenimFrumper]

The posed & glammed up pictures Carlin posted are absolutely bizarre. What a time to use social media for the “likes”. Maybe it’s just me but this seems like it should be a private moment of grief and not a posed moment filtered out for insta. I mean... did Carlin direct Joy & Austin to appear solemn and then fluff up Joy’s curls before the perfect shot? The 3rd picture of the smiling selfie is also very strange...

These people are absolutely wacko. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by LongDenimFrumper

[Churchhoney]

12 hours ago, Zella said:

My "best friend" snapping pictures of me like that during that time would probably make me go postal.

Joy and Austin both look really shell shocked in the first picture. 😞

I'm baffled by why you'd ever take that first picture, if you're Carlin, or, if you're Joy, fix your hair and makeup for it to be taken (apparently). Let alone publish it or allow it to be published to the world at large.

This isn't like making some kind of private memory book about your lost child. (Although it wouldn't even occur to me to put the family grief in such a book about the child. You'll remember the damn grief. All too vividly. No need to have photos of it. If somebody tried to photograph me in a moment like that, I'm pretty sure I'd violently break their camera.)

Joy obviously has a right to do what she wants to do. But to me it seems near insane to think of times like that as something for public consumption by thousands of strangers. I can't get my brain around what would be going on in Carlin's or Joy's mind to prompt either to want to do that. 

Help me out here. Is this publication for strangers something they did because being media and social-media celebrities has completely changed the way they look at things or is this some normal-type impulse that I ought to recognize but don't? (and, if so,  what is the impulse....?)

ETA: Okay, now I've read the rest of the posts. It's not just me. 

I wonder if other denizens of social media and minor celebrities also do this? Or do these people go this far because of their isolation and ignorance? It all seems insane.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sofa Sloth]

32 minutes ago, Albanyguy said:

She wouldn't name her new baby "Annabell" as a "tribute" to Joy and Austin's baby (and to continue the "A" theme she started with Asa). Would she?

Ooooohh. 😬 I want to say no fricken way, but the narcissistic bitch is so strong in that one, so who knows?

I think more likely though, Lauren only thinks about Lauren, so she’ll probably forget Joy even had Annabell and instead post lots of insensitive ‘look at my perfect beautiful healthy baby girl’ without referencing or thinking about her sister-in-laws devastating loss or the impact it will have on her to see these other family pregnancies coming to fruition  😞 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Sofa Sloth

[Minivanessa]

53 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I'm baffled by why you'd ever take that first picture, if you're Carlin, or, if you're Joy, fix your hair and makeup for it to be taken (apparently). Let alone publish it or allow it to be published to the world at large.

This isn't like making some kind of private memory book about your lost child. 

I think I see where you're coming from. But as I understand it, Joy and Austin did have a photographer take photos of them and their baby for a private memory book. Carlin was there for Joy and did her hair and makeup for those photos. And Carlin posted a few shots that she took on IG, with Joy's permission. 

I'm old as hell - Joy could be my granddaughter - and I'm okay with the photos that were posted on SM by both Carlin and Joy. I don't know who took the B&W photo that Joy posted, but it was touching and IMO tasteful. 

I also see nothing wrong that Joy - fresh from one of the the worst experiences that a woman can endure - wanted to have her hair and makeup looking nice for the private photos. 

I don't think they crossed any lines here at all. Some people wouldn't want any photos taken of their lost baby or themselves at that time. That's not wrong. Other people do want those photos. That's not wrong, either. As several people here have noted, including @doodlebug, there's a program where professional photographers agree to take those photos when requested, and they are often requested, and appreciated.

ETA: just to be clear, I think Jill and her stupid hashtag post, and Lauren and her ME ME ME nonsense, were obnoxious as all hell. They are a TV family, no matter how hard they lie and say they aren't, so I expect they'll post on social media about things that people who aren't on TV wouldn't. But there are wrong ways to do that. Jill and Lauren found some of them. Bah.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Jeeves

[Normades]

1 minute ago, Jeeves said:

I also see nothing wrong that Joy - fresh from one of the the worst experiences that a woman can endure - wanted to have her hair and makeup looking nice for the private photos. 

I 100% agree with everything you said.  We all grieve differently.  Also, even though her smiling in the pic with Carlin seems odd to me, I think that she's just been conditioned to smile at the camera from a young age.  Plus, if she wants to smile, why not?  Anything she needs to do to get through this.  Her grief, her way.

I think this has shown Austin in a different light for me.  I really feel for both of them. 

[Fig Newton]

First and foremost, to Joy, Austin and Gideon ---- I am so very sorry for your loss.

Maybe I am old, or not with it enough or perhaps it is that I just don't care enough or get "it". All the conversation on social media is so cold and specifically used to be seen and get those fucking "likes". Is a death of any kind really the time to post, post, post??? I would think that talking to me in person is a whole lot more comforting and loving than words on a damn screen with little pictures.

Death is not the time to emoji like crazy, and do not get me started on the damn #hashtags. 

Asshole Duggars-pick up the phone, or drive over to Joy and wrap her up in a warm hug (side hug if more appropriate). Let her cry on your shoulder or just hold her hand.  Y'all should try it. 

Oh, and Lauren. SHUT THE FUCK UP YOU CRAZY NARCISSISTIC WENCH

#justdoit

#y'all

#ICanNotTolerateLauren

[Churchhoney]

39 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

I think I see where you're coming from. But as I understand it, Joy and Austin did have a photographer take photos of them and their baby for a private memory book. Carlin was there for Joy and did her hair and makeup for those photos. And Carlin posted a few shots that she took on IG, with Joy's permission. 

I'm old as hell - Joy could be my granddaughter - and I'm okay with the photos that were posted on SM by both Carlin and Joy. I don't know who took the B&W photo that Joy posted, but it was touching and IMO tasteful. 

I also see nothing wrong that Joy - fresh from one of the the worst experiences that a woman can endure - wanted to have her hair and makeup looking nice for the private photos. 

I don't think they crossed any lines here at all. Some people wouldn't want any photos taken of their lost baby or themselves at that time. That's not wrong. Other people do want those photos. That's not wrong, either. As several people here have noted, including @doodlebug, there's a program where professional photographers agree to take those photos when requested, and they are often requested, and appreciated.

ETA: just to be clear, I think Jill and her stupid hashtag post, and Lauren and her ME ME ME nonsense, were obnoxious as all hell. They are a TV family, no matter how hard they lie and say they aren't, so I expect they'll post on social media about things that people who aren't on TV wouldn't. But there are wrong ways to do that. Jill and Lauren found some of them. Bah.

I totally agree that they didn't cross any line! As I said, I think Joy has a perfect right to publish these pictures if she wants. 

And I wouldn't even question taking the pictures if they were part of a personal collection, to be looked at or shown to people in a traditional way -- such as in your family photo album  or on a social-media page that shares only to people you've friended.

What I don't understand is what would prompt you to want to publish actual pictures of your grieving (or your friend's grieving) to publish for hundreds of thousands of total strangers to look at. 

Again, I'm not questioning their right to do it. These are their lives. They have a perfect right to do it. 

What I wonder is -- What desires, what emotions, what impulses make you want to show your intimate grief or your friend's intimate grief to hundreds of thousands of strangers?

I simply can't get my brain around the impulse to do that and I'd like to understand it because my impulses are completely the opposite....and so far as I know so are the impulses of everybody else I've ever shared grief with .....

My impulse when it comes to that kind of intense, difficult emotions is to share them only with a select group of people.....and to some extent not even to share them at all.  My impulse with terrible feelings is to crawl into a corner and hide away from  strangers until the feelings subside.

I can't even imagine feeling an impulse to be photographed in a state of emotional devastation and then have that photograph published where hundreds of thousands of people could look  at it .... 

So....since you get it!...you're one of the people I'm asking!

Can you describe what would impel you to grieve so publicly,  in front of a whole world of strangers? What's the emotion behind putting photos of your most intimate and devastating emotions out there so that hundreds of thousands of people can comment on them and pass them on to others?

I'd like to understand these impulses and feelings, since I can't even imagine what they are or what they're like. Usually, if I try, I can get inside somebody's skin enough to at least make a guess about their motivations in doing things I don't initially understand. But in this case, I'm completely stumped. I would feel complete revulsion at the idea of having these things shared with crowds of strangers. 

All I can figure is that they must be seeking some kind of catharsis.....So do you feel that the catharsis will be greater or come more easily if the whole world can share it? Do you get comfort from knowing that so many other people are seeing your devastation and somehow sharing it through the pictures?

I'm not ranting against Joy or Carlin. Never have been. I seriously want to understand the impulse to do this in the public arena.

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

40 minutes ago, nan said:

Maybe if you experienced such a loss, it might occur to you.

We have pictures of our child lost at 20 weeks. The only pictures we will ever have. Yes, we remember the "damn grief". The brief time with our child, the images in those moments, were so overshadowed by emotion, they are a blur.  We treasure the few pictures.

I'm sorry that I hurt your feelings. I didn't intend to say anything at all critical about having pictures of the child or the situation.  I intended to say that I fully understand wanting pictures of the child. I don't really understand why anyone would want photos of themselves grieving, but I definitely take your point that, for some, that's probably equally important. Thanks for suggesting the idea that,  for some, pictures of the parents' grief itself may be equally important to cherish in the future.

The only thing I don't understand -- and that I specifically intended to ask about --is why someone would want the pictures of that private grief on social media when their social media has hundreds of thousands of followers and will be reposted all over the place for strangers to look at. I do understand why you might publish those pictures on a social-media page for friends only. 

That's the impulse I don't understand. The impulse to publish the parental grief to be consumed by hundreds of thousands of strangers. I apologize for putting it in a way that hurt you and I am very sorry for your loss. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[IndianPaintbrush]

Part of it is generational. I'm a Gen X-er and I really don't understand the impulse to document every detail of your life on social media. But these kids grew up with it, so it's no big deal to them. 

Not to mention their whole religion revolves around babies and "spreading the word", so these public displays of grief are very much part of their ministry.

Edited July 5, 2019 by IndianPaintbrush

[Minivanessa]

@Churchhoney, I have no answers to those very deep and thoughtful questions you asked.

In my case, I simply accept that Joy chose to post - or let her friend post - a few photos on social media. And I didn't find those photos offensive or obnoxious or inappropriate. I believe, from the context, that they had a photographer take photos for a private photo album. Again, I don't think that's wrong.

I've never been in that situation and have no idea how I would react or behave if I were. Would I want photos? I really don't know. I do know that at this stage of my life, when so many friends and relatives are now deceased (most of them older than me, some younger, some peers) - I treasure some of the photos I have of them. They are welcome aids to memory, especially after the initial stages of grief are past. 

I appreciate the role that social media plays in my own private and non-famous, life. I also sometimes tweak how much and what I'm sharing on social media and who I follow. 

If I were a TV reality show personality like a Duggarling, I think I would share photos and information on social media even about such a tragedy, if only to try to control the narrative. I don't know how deeply Joy or Austin think about this stuff. And as @IndianPaintbrush just said, some of it is probably generational. Joy grew up with a TV crew in the house, so there's that too. 

[Churchhoney]

Thanks, @IndianPaintbrush and @Jeeves. 

You make very good points.  

I use social media almost entirely for professional reasons and the thought of conducting personal relationships and sharing private things in front of a bunch of people -- even Facebook "friends" -- makes me cringe. So I'll never get this. 

When I saw the two photos that have been posted of Joy and Austin in the hospital, all I could think was that I had no right to be looking at those pictures. I felt as if I violated them by seeing those photos and I still do. But of course they have a right to publish them. It's a media age. 

ETA: And the reason I feel as if I violated them by seeing those pictures is because I do not know them. I am a stranger. A person who knows about them and has essentially idle curiosity. I'm a person who is not a part of their lives and who therefore cannot care about them in a meaningful way because I don't actually know who they are . Just like everybody else here. And I saw two photographs that are extremely intimate and painful.  If I did know them, and they showed me those photographs as a person they know and who knows them -- on a social-media page that only people who know them are likely to visit, for example --I wouldn't feel the same. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[louannems]

33 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I totally agree that they didn't cross any line! As I said, I think Joy has a perfect right to publish these pictures if she wants. 

And I wouldn't even question taking the pictures if they were part of a personal collection, to be looked at or shown to people in a traditional way -- such as in your family photo album  or on a social-media page that shares only to people you've friended.

What I don't understand is what would prompt you to want to publish actual pictures of your grieving (or your friend's grieving) to publish for hundreds of thousands of total strangers to look at. 

Again, I'm not questioning their right to do it. These are their lives. They have a perfect right to do it. 

What I wonder is -- What desires, what emotions, what impulses make you want to show your intimate grief or your friend's intimate grief to hundreds of thousands of strangers?

I simply can't get my brain around the impulse to do that and I'd like to understand it because my impulses are completely the opposite....and so far as I know so are the impulses of everybody else I've ever shared grief with .....

My impulse when it comes to that kind of intense, difficult emotions is to share them only with a select group of people.....and to some extent not even to share them at all.  My impulse with terrible feelings is to crawl into a corner and hide away from  strangers until the feelings subside.

I can't even imagine feeling an impulse to be photographed in a state of emotional devastation and then have that photograph published where hundreds of thousands of people could look  at it .... 

So....since you get it!...you're one of the people I'm asking!

Can you describe what would impel you to grieve so publicly,  in front of a whole world of strangers? What's the emotion behind putting photos of your most intimate and devastating emotions out there so that hundreds of thousands of people can comment on them and pass them on to others?

I'd like to understand these impulses and feelings, since I can't even imagine what they are or what they're like. Usually, if I try, I can get inside somebody's skin enough to at least make a guess about their motivations in doing things I don't initially understand. But in this case, I'm completely stumped. I would feel complete revulsion at the idea of having these things shared with crowds of strangers. 

All I can figure is that they must be seeking some kind of catharsis.....So do you feel that the catharsis will be greater or come more easily if the whole world can share it? Do you get comfort from knowing that so many other people are seeing your devastation and somehow sharing it through the pictures?

I'm not ranting against Joy or Carlin. Never have been. I seriously want to understand the impulse to do this in the public arena.

I agree with everything you said.  All I can think of is it's being filmed for Counting On.  And that would be truely horrible.  Surely they wouldn't agree to having their most private grief filmed just for money?  Would they???

[Churchhoney]

8 minutes ago, louannems said:

I agree with everything you said.  All I can think of is it's being filmed for Counting On.  And that would be truely horrible.  Surely they wouldn't agree to having their most private grief filmed just for money?  Would they???

This never even crossed my mind, actually. I truly don't think they would agree. I certainly hope noone talks them into it, although I can easily imagine a lot of people trying to. Just the thought of people trying to convince them to do it makes me sick. I certainly hope that isn't happening and will never happen. 

I've sort of come to the conclusion that social media is just so much a part of their lives that they tacitly accept is as being "social" -- in the sense of being something for friends and family, people they care about and who care about them -- so it doesn't even occur to them  that things posted there are actually on very public display. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, louannems said:

I agree with everything you said.  All I can think of is it's being filmed for Counting On.  And that would be truely horrible.  Surely they wouldn't agree to having their most private grief filmed just for money?  Would they???

I am hoping that there were not any TLC cameras in the hospital with Joy.  I can see the producers sitting down with Joy and Austin before the next season airs to talk about this.  Being on a reality show is a double-edged sword.  Joy is a public figure who shared on social media that she was pregnant, she was always going to have to post this devastating news.  

[GeeGolly]

I'm down the middle with Joy's posts. The first picture, the black and white one, I thought was tasteful. The second three gave me pause at being made public.

Joy's young and she and Carlin have spent their lives being filmed and photographed for public consumption. Maybe it's normal to them.

Whatever the reasons, I hope Carlin's presence gave Joy some comfort and maybe moments of distraction. I imagine the next few months to be even harder for Joy and Austin as they watch 'what would have been', as their sisters and sisters-in-law grow bigger and eventually deliver their healthy baby girls.

[Churchhoney]

12 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I am hoping that there were not any TLC cameras in the hospital with Joy.  I can see the producers sitting down with Joy and Austin before the next season airs to talk about this.  Being on a reality show is a double-edged sword.  Joy is a public figure who shared on social media that she was pregnant, she was always going to have to post this devastating news.  

This is the thing that bothers most of all.

These are not public figures. 

They're people who were brainwashed as children and teens into doing things that have made the public imagine that the public owns them. And that have made them somehow imagine that they're "public figures" or "celebrities."

Other than simply performing their lives in public, they do not do and never have done anything that warrants the media's and the public's calling them public figures or their seeing themselves as some sort of celebrities. (A "public figure," as traditionally defined, is someone whose activities affect the public in some way so that it becomes important to know some otherwise private facts about that person's life, because his or her motivations affect the public.)

And they didn't choose this life of public performance.

They didn't choose the many habits they've developed that reinforce the public's demand to know everything about them and reinforce their own totally out-of-control "sharing." 

They were pushed into this life of public performance when they were too young to know better or to make a decision and now they just play it out from habit and from being numbed to what it actually amounts to. 

And it seems to me that it's dangerous for them personally, dangerous for their children, and quite toxic for "the public" -- very much including all of us -- who increasingly imagine it's okay to demand to know things that are their private business and, in my opinion, ought to be kept that way. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[sleepysuzy]

If Joy sincerely sees Counting On as a ministry,  I could see her agreeing to share all of this as a way to make her loss meaningful. It allows her to connect on a personal level to other women who have experienced such losses, which is an underrepresented population in all media. She can demonstrate how her faith helps her through her grief, with the hope that it might draw others to faith as well. 

The very stigma that pregnancy loss should be kept private could be the reason for making it public. It's an affirmation that her baby was real because her grief is real, and this resonates with others who have not seen their own grief and loss reflected in traditional and social media. 

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, sleepysuzy said:

If Joy sincerely sees Counting On as a ministry,  I could see her agreeing to share all of this as a way to make her loss meaningful. It allows her to connect on a personal level to other women who have experienced such losses, which is an underrepresented population in all media. She can demonstrate how her faith helps her through her grief, with the hope that it might draw others to faith as well. 

The very stigma that pregnancy loss should be kept private could be the reason for making it public. It's an affirmation that her baby was real because her grief is real, and this resonates with others who have not seen their own grief and loss reflected in traditional and social media. 

Good point. I've heard less from Joy than from other Duggarlings about seeing her tv life as a ministry, but if she does think that, I agree with you about this. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by Churchhoney

[doodlebug]

12 hours ago, McManda said:

Thanks, everyone, for the info on the process regarding stillbirths. @QuinnInND, I'm so sorry for your experience with your daughter, but thank you for sharing. Mentioning that you wished the was something you could have noticed earlier to prevent it falls more in line with my idea that if it were me, I'd always wonder if there was something I could have done for a different outcome. 

Follow up question: was an induction recommended as soon as possible for Joy? I imagine there would be risk of infection to mom the longer they waited. I'm surprised that Carlin had time to make the trip, only because from my tangential experience with my sister's pregnaof ncy they don't mess around with concerns of a pregnant woman. My sister went to triage a couple of times (they advise it if you fall, for example) and the last time was because she was concerned that baby want moving as much. They ended up sitting her and her daughter was born without too many complications later that night. If they suspected problems with baby and steered Joy to the nearest ER I find it unlikely they'd give her the time to make plans.

It's not an emergency, waiting a day or two presuming the mother is healthy is not a problem.  I find that most parents just want to go to the hospital ASAP and get the baby born; but, sometimes they need to take a breath, tell their family, arrange child care, prepare mentally.

Even if Joy was admitted immediately for induction, it could easily take up to 24 hours for the delivery to happen which would be more than enough time for Carlin to get there.

Most parents do not know about Now I Lay Me Down to Sleep, why would they?  The hospital birthing center would have their information and would tell parents about it and make the arrangements to have someone come.  I've had them come for the delivery, other times, they come hours later.  It the case of such a tiny baby, Joy and Austin probably wanted to see her first and decide on the photos.  Joy wanting to shower or put on her own clothes, or even have her hair and makeup done because this was the only time, the only pictures, seems fine to me. I've seen other parents do similar things, wait for other kids or family to get there, bring a specific outfit for the baby to wear, even have a clergy person there to baptize or bless the baby during the photo session.  I begrudge nobody nothing.

Even 30 years ago, before we could get pros to do it, the nurses would use a polaroid to take some photos.  We would encourage the parents to let us take them even if they didn't think they wanted them.  We would put them in a manila envelope with the mom's name and the date on them if they didn't want to take them home when they were discharged and we'd tell the parents that the nurse manager would keep them in her office for at least a year and they were welcome to come back anytime and get them.  The vast majority took the photos home.  The majority of those who didn't came back later for them.  

I have a friend who had a stillbirth at 34 weeks.  NILMDTS took the photos after her daughter was born.  Eventually, she shared about half a dozen of them on Facebook with friends only.  She made sure to caption the album so anyone who looked was aware of what they were going to see.  She was proud of her beautiful little girl and she wanted to share.  She was a physician assistant and a lot of her friends on FB are medical people, but I didn't and I don't think there was anything wrong with it.

Edited July 5, 2019 by doodlebug

[Trillium]

I have seen many photos on my SM accounts from people who have had a stillborn/infant loss from people who are in no way famous.  Why they share them, I have no idea, I’m sure the reasons vary from person to person.I know one said she shared them because that was her child and she wanted to share just like she shared photos of her other kids and not pretend like the stillborn never existed.  Sharing these kind of photos is a thing that ordinary people do and not exclusive to any religious beliefs. People have their own reasons. I’ve even seen some have a photoshopped shadow of a child into a family photo that would have been the current age of the child they lost, had they not passed( like the child was stillborn and they photoshopped a shadow of a 5year old). Again not sure if that’s something I would,do but whatever. A parent who’s lost a child can do whatever brings them comfort. 

[doodlebug]

3 minutes ago, Trillium said:

I. Again not sure if that’s something I would,do but whatever. A parent who’s lost a child can do whatever brings them comfort. 

I think that's the bottom line.  If Joy or Austin thought it might help them to share their grief publicly, then who am I to say they shouldn't?  After my nephew died, my sister, never one to keep her opinions to herself, declared that, in a way, my nephew's death had freed to tell people what she really thought.  One of my adult cousins had a disagreement with his mother, my aunt, and stopped talking to her for a period of time.  My Aunt was devastated.  My sister stepped in and left a message on my cousin's answering machine telling him that life was too short and pointing out the obvious.  He ended up reconciling with his mother shortly thereafter and even told her about my sister's message.  My sister used to claim that 'if anything good is going to come from this, I am the one who is going to have to make it happen.'  She referred to it as 'the dead kid excuse.'  My sister was pretty irreverent.

[Zella]

@Churchhoney the best explanation I've ever seen--which may not be relevant--is from something surrounding the musician Nick Cave. His teenage son dies tragically a few years ago, right around the time he was working on an album. They ended up releasing a documentary about what happened when the album,  which was delayed, was released. 

I just remember people speculating on it, and someone--whether it was a bandmate or the documentary maker or a writer or even an astute commentator--pointed out Cave wasn't doing interviews. So, this was basically his way of dealing with the press/public, as he was expected to, but on his own terms with a close friend who made the documentary rather than being at a reporter's mercy. Maybe it's Joy's way of feeling like she has control over the situation where she has had no control over anything.

It's not what I would do--I stayed off social media during a recent death and would like to punch the fucking videographer who filmed my family sitting at the burial ceremony looking distraught--but I can see where Joy would feel like she maybe has to release something and it would seem less weird to her since she is in the public eye and that if she's going to do so, she wants it to come from a close friend she trusts.

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, Snow Fairy said:

Some people commented that on the scan baby's head has too much fluid, and does not look ok. They even compared it with normal 10 week scan

Do you think it's possible they knew something is off, but still continued to pray to God and expect the best?

I think a static picture of an ultrasound done at 10 weeks is impossible to judge anything.  I have never seen a major anomaly diagnosed that early in 35+ years.  If one of the maternal fetal medicine specialists at my hospital could actually see such a thing, I have a feeling that the first thing they would do was tell the mother they were going to repeat the test in a few weeks once the baby had grown to get a better look.  I also suspect that a baby whose brain was so malformed that it was detectable on a 10 week scan would never have made it to 20 weeks.

At 10 weeks, they could've measured a nuchal translucency or done a free fetal DNA test.  Those only hint at chromosome problems, nothing else.  I cannot imagine any medical professional telling a parent to consider aborting based on a 10 week scan.   At the very most, they'd be repeating the test and would've ended up doing an anatomy scan at 18-20 weeks and the baby would've died anyway.  

If Joy did know something, I suspect she didn't feel abortion was an option and I think many other women would feel exactly the same way.

[rue721]

2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I also see nothing wrong that Joy - fresh from one of the the worst experiences that a woman can endure - wanted to have her hair and makeup looking nice for the private photos.

Yes. I haven't had a miscarriage, but I imagine I'd feel the same way. It's reassuring and comforting to go through those rituals -- doing the hair, putting on the makeup -- especially with a friend.

Joy was about to take very vulnerable, difficult photos. She probably needed that ritual to help gird her for them.

Not everyone would feel that way, but it's not unusual.

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

What I don't understand is what would prompt you to want to publish actual pictures of your grieving (or your friend's grieving) to publish for hundreds of thousands of total strangers to look at.

Of course, I'm not in Joy's head. But in my opinion, the reason Joy would do this is to express herself.

Joy isn't a poet or a painter or a singer; these photos are the most eloquent way she can express what's happening and what she's feeling right now. Her feelings are bound to be incredibly intense, and the compulsion to express feelings like that can be incredibly strong. I don't think that's a bad thing or even generational; not everything can or should be stifled inside and left to fester.

I think she's probably showing these pictures to the world for the same reason that a poet publishes poetry or a painter exhibits a painting or a musician pours herself into a song on stage. Yes, it's catharsis, but it's also just plain old emotional expression.

Edited July 5, 2019 by rue721

[Ohiopirate02]

I am not going to fault Joy for having Carlin do her hair and makeup.  I love makeup it's my hobby.  I wear it on an almost daily basis because it brings me joy.  I will say that one reason why many women wear makeup is because it allows them to paint a mask on their face to help get through the really tough times.  It's warpaint to help you get through it.  

[Barb23]

While looking at birth stories on YouTube months ago  I came across many videos of tastefully done stillbirth stories that broke my heart.  I can't imagine having to go through that & my sympathy to all of you that have whether it be yourself,  a family member or friend. Most of the videos were done as a story to the baby. "We were so happy to find out you were a boy...." kind of thing.  There was one that sticks out in my mind where there was a large group of people that were not only waiting & sitting outside the room waiting for the mom to deliver but were in the room after.  There were a lot of tears but also some happy pictures as if the baby was alive.  Personally I don't think I could handle that many people being there but the mom said that so many friends & family loved them & the baby so much, they wanted to be their to show their support which I thought was beautiful. 

So to each their own. 

[doodlebug]

5 hours ago, Madtown said:

I went back and looked at a lot of the comments and there were more saying that they wished Joy and Austin would've seen her comment. There was a comment from another sonographer that asked if anyone else thought the nuchal appeared thick. She said she wasn't trying to be negative, but hoped it was checked out. Another sonographer replied to this lady and said yes, that she did notice it and said it was likely chromosomal abnormalities.

If those people were actual sonographers, they should be reported for their unprofessional behavior.  I work daily with sonographers who work with high risk pregnant patients.  None of them would be so quick to claim a baby had chromosomal abnormalities if they had actually done the scan, let alone third hand from the internet.  As far as the nuchal translucency, that has to be measured with calipers, eyeballing it and taking a guess is completely ridiculous.  In addition, not every baby with an increased NT has a chromosome problem.

And, as I've said before, it is not required that anyone have this testing anyway.  I doubt it would've changed Joy or Austin's mind about anything and stuff like Down syndrome doesn't run in families in the vast majority of cases so their future kids aren't at risk/

Edited July 5, 2019 by doodlebug

[leighdear]

I don't believe Duggars do anything for the emotional or psychological benefit of anybody outside their circle.  

They don't need or want therapy or psychiatric consultations, because Jesus.  

I think everything is posted is to say "This is all about us and people like us. We do things this way.  Watch us and learn".  

[debbie311]

I have little doubt that TLC will build an episode around this, similar to how they covered Jubilee's birth and funeral.  

I also predict that Joy will be pregnant again within a few months.  First of all, they don't practice birth control, right?  Also, I believe that like a lot of women who lose babies, she will be anxious/desperate to fill that void with another baby, whether it is the right thing to do, or not.  And yes, I speak from personal experience.

[lascuba]

I don't have a problem with taking or posting pictures, but I do find it weird that they pose for these sad pictures for memories and then immediately after Joy takes a smiling picture with Carlin. I know grief doesn't mean one is somber 100% of time but it's the performative sadness for the camera that's strange.

16 hours ago, McManda said:

My question for those that have been there, because I have not; do they do any sort of autopsy on stillbirths? As the parent, would it bring any peace or understanding to know why your baby died? Obviously it's not going to change anything or help with the feeling of loss and grief, but I could see there being some comfort in knowing your baby didn't suffer from a lifelong illness or something else incompatible with a long or fulfilling life.

A medical examiner wouldn't perform an autopsy but the hospital would if the mom requests it (if that's a service the hospital provides).

[BitterApple]

16 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I don't have a problem with taking or posting pictures, but I do find it weird that they pose for these sad pictures for memories and then immediately after Joy takes a smiling picture with Carlin. I know grief doesn't mean one is somber 100% of time but it's the performative sadness for the camera that's strange.

That's throwing me for a loop as well. I feel like I'm watching performance art rather than a couple in the throes of grief. That first picture is so staged as if someone was off camera directing them like "Okay, Austin stare straight ahead. Joy, angle your expression down. That's it! Good, now look lost and forlorn. Hold it for three...okay, we got the shot, let's move on to smiling selfie with BFF." It's odd.

Edited July 5, 2019 by BitterApple

[LongDenimFrumper]

I guess I should also clarify a bit... it’s not so much the pictures I find strange or wanting to clean herself up, it’s that they are peddling them around on their public/celeb page for “likes”. I’m totally with @Churchhoney on this. If I were preparing to deliver my dead child, the very last thing I would be thinking about is selecting attractive photos for Instagram or thinking of catchy hashtags. 

Professional pictures for your personal album to remember your child,  wonderful. 

Insta pics you plan to peddle to People, US Weekly or incorporate into shilling Citrus & Lemon or some kind of scheme for a big pay out? Totally off the wall bizarre.  

I’ll eat my words if those pics don’t end up in gossip mag but I’m pretty sure they are angling for a big pay out. 

Edited July 5, 2019 by LongDenimFrumper

[JennyMominFL]

7 hours ago, sleepysuzy said:

If Joy sincerely sees Counting On as a ministry,  I could see her agreeing to share all of this as a way to make her loss meaningful. It allows her to connect on a personal level to other women who have experienced such losses, which is an underrepresented population in all media. She can demonstrate how her faith helps her through her grief, with the hope that it might draw others to faith as well. 

The very stigma that pregnancy loss should be kept private could be the reason for making it public. It's an affirmation that her baby was real because her grief is real, and this resonates with others who have not seen their own grief and loss reflected in traditional and social media. 

Yup. This is it. By sharing the pics, she may feel like others can share in her grief and people with similar stories can share their grief with her . Then maybe she wont feel so much pain. My daugter shared her photos on facebook.  The responses from the many people who had experienced a similar loss helped her.

Edited July 5, 2019 by JennyMominFL

[Minivanessa]

Just now, LongDenimFrumper said:

I guess I should also clarify a bit... it’s not so much the pictures I find strange or wanting to clean herself up, it’s that they are peddling them around on their public/celeb page for “likes”. I’m totally with @Churchhoney on this. If I were preparing to deliver my dead child, the very last thing I would be thinking about is selecting attractive photos for Instagram or thinking of catchy hashtags. 

Professional pictures for your personal album to remember your child,  wonderful. 

Insta pics you plan to peddle to People, US Weekly or incorporate into shilling Citrus & Lemon or some kind of scheme for a big pay out? Totally off the wall bizarre.  

I’ll eat my words with those pics don’t end up in gossip mag but I’m pretty sure they are angling for a big pay out. 

As to photos they post on social media, they may get views and likes and comments, but that's just how it works. Certainly, viewing that as "peddling photos on social media for likes" is as legitimate an opinion of the process as mine, which is that they are trying to control the public narrative by sharing some information and photos with the public. 

As to money, once anyone posts a photo on their public IG account, AFAIK any website or magazine can use it without paying them a dime, as long as they acknowledge the source of the photo. I'm sure the photos will end up on some magazines' websites but i doubt there will be a big payout for them. 

[LongDenimFrumper]

@Jeeves I suspect they will save the professional pics & an interview for an exclusive with People (or a similar publication.) Sure the photos posted to their accounts can be shared without compensation. There will be exclusives... 

As for their motives, possibly she does view Counting On as a ministry. I just have a very difficult time seeing most of this family thinking that deeply or thoughtfully. 

[leighdear]

20 minutes ago, LongDenimFrumper said:

I’ll eat my words if those pics don’t end up in gossip mag but I’m pretty sure they are angling for a big pay out. 

PEOPLE magazine already has the story, I'm sure they have the photos too.  

[leighdear]

These folks use their "ministry" to tell people what to do, to be just like them.  It has nothing to do with helping people, merely instructing them.