Joy and Austin: This One Time At Family Camp

[cmr2014]

41 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

This is my guess too! It probably doesn't even occur to her that she's the right age to be a student. It probably occurs to Austin, but he likely feels superior because he's married with a child, not sleeping with a different girl every night like the student heathens certainly are all doing! He probably feels they should all be jealous of HIM!

I think you're right.

It will be a few years down the road when they start feeling old and haggard, and have a mob of kids running around the camper that they start to realize what they missed.

[yogi2014L]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:04 PM, cmr2014 said:

I think you're right.

It will be a few years down the road when they start feeling old and haggard, and have a mob of kids running around the camper that they start to realize what they missed.

And unlike a lot of other teen parents, they will never stop having kids so they won't even get time to themselves in their 40's to do all the things they missed out on.

My SIL had her kids young( on accident) but first one was at 19, second ( on purpose) at 23. We talk all the time about which is better, I think she used to be a little jealous of my husband and I when we would always be out/ going on vacation/enjoying DINK life in our 20's but I will be jealous when her and my BIL are 40 and their kids are in college and they can have their life back again. When I am 40 and my kids will still be in elementary school. There are perks to both! 

Also, I am curious to see the burnout of the older Duggar born girls. They been non stop child rearing since they were children. Boob and Mechelle had a ton of child free time (comparatively) before they starting breeding irresponsibly. I bet the laundry room breakdowns will be sooner with the oldest girls than it was for Michelle if they choose to have 4+ Kids

On 11/19/2018 at 10:04 PM, cmr2014 said:

I think you're right.

It will be a few years down the road when they start feeling old and haggard, and have a mob of kids running around the camper that they start to realize what they missed.

And unlike a lot of other teen parents, they will never stop having kids so they won't even get time to themselves in their 40's to do all the things they missed out on.

My SIL had her kids young( on accident) but first one was at 19, second ( on purpose) at 23. We talk all the time about which is better, I think she used to be a little jealous of my husband and I when we would always be out/ going on vacation/enjoying DINK life in our 20's but I will be jealous when her and my BIL are 40 and their kids are in college and they can have their life back again. When I am 40 and my kids will still be in elementary school. There are perks to both! 

Also, I am curious to see the burnout of the older Duggar born girls. They been non stop child rearing since they were children. Boob and Mechelle had a ton of child free time (comparatively) before they starting breeding irresponsibly. I bet the laundry room breakdowns will be sooner with the oldest girls than it was for Michelle if they choose to have 4+ Kids

[Catfin]

On 11/19/2018 at 10:04 PM, cmr2014 said:

I think you're right.

It will be a few years down the road when they start feeling old and haggard, and have a mob of kids running around the camper that they start to realize what they missed.

My student heathen is having a blast. 

[Barb23]

I keep thinking Joy will be the next one to be pregnant.  I really don't know why.

Does anyone have any scoop on Joy & Austin?  Are they still in the camper & if so, where is the camper parked?  Is Austin flipping another house for them to live in?  I guess they would always have a room/place at Fort Rock if necessary.  How far is Fort Rock away from the TTC? 

[yogi2014L]

3 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I keep thinking Joy will be the next one to be pregnant.  I really don't know why.

Does anyone have any scoop on Joy & Austin?  Are they still in the camper & if so, where is the camper parked?  Is Austin flipping another house for them to live in?  I guess they would always have a room/place at Fort Rock if necessary.  How far is Fort Rock away from the TTC? 

Young dumb anf fertile that is why

Even if Joy didn't want to get pregnant, I don't think she has the brains, motivation or willpower to undo all that brain washing/also go get contraceptives or attempt natural family planning. ( None of this is her fault, I don't want anyone to think Im ragging on her, but it is what it is)

 If they do ever take measures to limit their family size, it will be because of Austin taking the lead on it. 

Jessa, on the other hand, would be the one controlling her reproduction. 

Edited November 25, 2018 by yogi2014L

[Lunera]

Joy spent her thanksgiving in Texas.

3 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Does anyone have any scoop on Joy & Austin?  Are they still in the camper & if so, where is the camper parked?  Is Austin flipping another house for them to live in?  I guess they would always have a room/place at Fort Rock if necessary.  How far is Fort Rock away from the TTC? 

I think they are still in the camper. In late August she posted pictures in the camper and when people asked why she was back there she said she had an update coming soon. Still no update, so maybe things didn't go as planned. 

I think someone here said the camp was around 45 minutes from the Duggar compound.

[Temperance]

This just in: Joy just told someone on Instagram that she is not pregnant. 

[Lunera]

2 minutes ago, Temperance said:

This just in: Joy just told someone on Instagram that she is not pregnant. 

That's good, I didn't think she was. Hopefully she waits the recommend time after a c section. I think they are abstaining, that's why Austin practically mentioned being miserable in his marriage. 

[Churchhoney]

At some point before this marriage happened, Joy did apparently express clear doubts about the Duggar way being the only way or the way for her. (Joe herded her back in, of course, reportedly.). But that fact gives me a little hope for her. There has to be some spark of thinking or autonomy or something in there somewhere. And maybe it'll arise again someday, in a way that'll surprise us. She's about the only one about whom we've heard actual rumors of doubts expressed, I think. (Although we can postulate that some of the boys have rumbled about things at times, and perhaps Jana, based on their Alert and Journey of the Heart records.). Sparks aren't all that easy to extinguish permanently. Maybe one day her day will come.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Churchhoney

[madpsych78]

I'm trying to figure out who the in-laws are that are in Texas. I thought the Forsyths were in Arkansas.

[dargosmydaddy]

I'm just happy that it seems like the majority of the married Duggars spent Thanksgiving with their non-Duggar families and not at the TTH!

[madpsych78]

1 minute ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I'm just happy that it seems like the majority of the married Duggars spent Thanksgiving with their non-Duggar families and not at the TTH!

We know Smuganna, Benessa, Joystin, and Jinjer spent Thanksgiving elsewhere. I'm not sure the Dullards were with Cathy; they might have been on their own. Unknown about SiRen, JoKen, or Jabbie.

[BitterApple]

18 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

I'm just happy that it seems like the majority of the married Duggars spent Thanksgiving with their non-Duggar families and not at the TTH!

Very interesting. So Joy, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Josh were elsewhere. That's a rarity in Duggarland. Maybe the kids are finally getting sick of their parents' b.s. 

On the plus side, that's about twenty less people Jana had to cook for, so yay for her. 

[OpieTaylor]

39 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

Very interesting. So Joy, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Josh were elsewhere. That's a rarity in Duggarland. Maybe the kids are finally getting sick of their parents' b.s. 

On the plus side, that's about twenty less people Jana had to cook for, so yay for her. 

I suspect it’s so that they can all spend Christmas at the Duggar compound - the “primo” holiday 

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, madpsych78 said:

I'm trying to figure out who the in-laws are that are in Texas. I thought the Forsyths were in Arkansas.

The Forsyths are originally from Texas. Perhaps Austin's grandparents still live there?

[Barb23]

3 hours ago, Lunera said:

That's good, I didn't think she was. Hopefully she waits the recommend time after a c section. I think they are abstaining, that's why Austin practically mentioned being miserable in his marriage. 

Giddyup was born the end of February (we share a birthday) so that makes him 9 months old which is way past the time for them to abstain from her c-section.  I don't think they could go that long without sex.  Maybe they are using natural planning but I see them of all the Duggar couples as not doing or using anything for birth control. 

2 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

I'm trying to figure out who the in-laws are that are in Texas. I thought the Forsyths were in Arkansas.

It said on the Duggar Blog (Ellie & Lily's site) that they spent Thanksgiving with Austin's extended family in Texas.  It looks like the picture is taken at the River Walk in San Antonio. 

[cmr2014]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Very interesting. So Joy, Jill, Jessa, Jinger and Josh were elsewhere. That's a rarity in Duggarland. Maybe the kids are finally getting sick of their parents' b.s. 

On the plus side, that's about twenty less people Jana had to cook for, so yay for her. 

I wish that were true, but I think that @OpieTaylor is more likely on target. The fact that they ALL had somewhere else to go suggests (to me) that JB and J'chelle kicked them to the curb and told them that there would be no dinner at the TTH and they would have to look elsewhere -- Xmas, however, is probably mandatory as usual. The Duggar family Christmas is so gross, too: dozens of people sitting alone with their own sad little pile of presents followed by a crappy meal eaten haphazardly on paper plates with plastic utensils 

[Temperance]

Jill seems to wait at least a year after each of her births to have another baby, and Joy seems to be following in her footsteps. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

7 hours ago, Temperance said:

Jill seems to wait at least a year after each of her births to have another baby, and Joy seems to be following in her footsteps. 

Seems a bit of a stretch to find a pattern after two births, but maybe all of them have sort of made a mutual decision to not follow their parents' example of consciously striving to have as many children as possible and are at least engaging in some natural family planning. I suspect that Henry was probably a bit of an "oops", and that Jessa has fine-tuned her methods a bit since then. I expect that most to all of the Duggar offspring will wait until their previous baby is at least a year old before trying again, and while they may have a few children relatively close in age, any that come along after that number will also be random "oopsies". They may have been eager to start families, and I can't say I necessarily blame them, but they may have actually learned more than they let on from having grown up in a family as large as theirs. As much as they present everything as being sunshine and rainbows 24/7, I'd be surprised if most of them didn't feel some resentment at being thrust into the sort of life they were dealt.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Jynnan tonnix

[Scarlett45]

51 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to find a pattern after two births, but maybe all of them have sort of made a mutual decision to not follow their parents' example of consciously striving to have as many children as possible and are at least engaging in some natural family planning. I suspect that Henry was probably a bit of an "oops", and that Jessa has fine-tuned her methods a bit since then. I expect that most to all of the Duggar offspring will wait until their previous baby is at least a year old before trying again, and while they may have a few children relatively close in age, any that come along after that number will also be random "oopsies". They may have been eager to start families, and I can't say I necessarily blame them, but they may have actually learned more than they let on from having grown up in a family as large as theirs. As much as they present everything as being sunshine and rainbows 24/7, I'd be surprised if most of them didn't feel some resentment at being thrust into the sort of life they were dealt.

Also, (thanks for pointing out it’s hard to distinguish a pattern after two live births), each couple probably isn’t as fertile as Michelle & JB. Duggar Data estimates that the Duggar Daughters will have a fertility life as long as Michelle, but without actual medical testing we don’t know the sperm quality/fertility of their spouses- the Duggar parents were incredibly fertile as a couple, partnered with someone else they could’ve had far fewer children. 

Regarding Kendra & Joy-Anna (who both had honeymoon babies), I’d wait to see how quickly they get to 3 children to see if there’s a Michelle like pattern. Alyssa Bates has three and is following in Kelly’s footsteps. 

P.S. While I know people have sex with people they cannot stand all the Time, and these couples are relatively young- JB& Michelle CHOSE each other and were genuinely attracted to each other from the get go, thus likely he regular sex throughout their marriage because they wanted to. 

Joe and Kendra seem to like each other quite a bit, but Joy & Austin?!!! I think Joy liked Austin intially and he was just looking for a wife....who knows how steamy their marriage will be going forward. 

[GeeGolly]

8 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Also, (thanks for pointing out it’s hard to distinguish a pattern after two live births), each couple probably isn’t as fertile as Michelle & JB. Duggar Data estimates that the Duggar Daughters will have a fertility life as long as Michelle, but without actual medical testing we don’t know the sperm quality/fertility of their spouses- the Duggar parents were incredibly fertile as a couple, partnered with someone else they could’ve had far fewer children. 

Regarding Kendra & Joy-Anna (who both had honeymoon babies), I’d wait to see how quickly they get to 3 children to see if there’s a Michelle like pattern. Alyssa Bates has three and is following in Kelly’s footsteps. 

P.S. While I know people have sex with people they cannot stand all the Time, and these couples are relatively young- JB& Michelle CHOSE each other and were genuinely attracted to each other from the get go, thus likely he regular sex throughout their marriage because they wanted to. 

Joe and Kendra seem to like each other quite a bit, but Joy & Austin?!!! I think Joy liked Austin intially and he was just looking for a wife....who knows how steamy their marriage will be going forward. 

It's so true that there are endless contributing factors to reproducing. One huge factor is at one point JB & M starting timing their activities to increase the odds of Michelle becoming pregnant. I'm guessing the married couples are just having unprotected sex and "leaving it in God's hands".

[FizzyPuff]

12 hours ago, Lunera said:

That's good, I didn't think she was. Hopefully she waits the recommend time after a c section. I think they are abstaining, that's why Austin practically mentioned being miserable in his marriage. 

I don't know if there celibate or not I doubt it though. Also I think Austin being miserable in marriage was more to do with he didn't expect Joy to not be so Joyful during her pregnancy and then he had to take care of her after the c-section I don't think it ever occurred to him that he'd have to take care of his wife, probably though marriage was all sex and your wife doing everything you wanted. 

[Scarlett45]

9 minutes ago, Puffin said:

I don't know if there celibate or not I doubt it though. Also I think Austin being miserable in marriage was more to do with he didn't expect Joy to not be so Joyful during her pregnancy and then he had to take care of her after the c-section I don't think it ever occurred to him that he'd have to take care of his wife, probably though marriage was all sex and your wife doing everything you wanted. 

Yes I agree. Austin didn’t come from a mega family, he’s one of two. I don’t think his grandparents or great grandparents lived with him or needed care in the home, meaning he hasn’t seen the physical and emotional energy being a caregiver requires. He was shocked. I’ve noticed this about a lot of first time parents, but my friends remind me that I grew up in a world having to care for family in the home (due to various disabilities and age) so one infant doesn’t phase me. For many people becoming a parent is literally the first time they’ve had to care for another human being. 

[dargosmydaddy]

9 hours ago, cmr2014 said:

I wish that were true, but I think that @OpieTaylor is more likely on target. The fact that they ALL had somewhere else to go suggests (to me) that JB and J'chelle kicked them to the curb and told them that there would be no dinner at the TTH and they would have to look elsewhere -- Xmas, however, is probably mandatory as usual.

Well, considering how many kids are still at home, I'd find it hard to believe that there wasn't a Thanksgiving meal being served, and that the marrieds would have been barred from attending. At the very least we did have the picture of the overgrown howlers making biscuits...

That being said, I could definitely see JB "magnanimously" suggesting that the marrieds see the in-laws for Thanksgiving and spend Christmas at the TTH. Though from the pictures we saw of Christmas at the TTH previously, I would think it might be avoidable and that no one would notice you weren't there in all the chaos...

[Scarlett45]

20 minutes ago, dargosmydaddy said:

Well, considering how many kids are still at home, I'd find it hard to believe that there wasn't a Thanksgiving meal being served, and that the marrieds would have been barred from attending. At the very least we did have the picture of the overgrown howlers making biscuits...

That being said, I could definitely see JB "magnanimously" suggesting that the marrieds see the in-laws for Thanksgiving and spend Christmas at the TTH. Though from the pictures we saw of Christmas at the TTH previously, I would think it might be avoidable and that no one would notice you weren't there in all the chaos...

There are 8 under 18 (James- Josie), and Jana, The Twins & Jason still at the TTH. I do think there was a Thanksgiving meal, but if they weren’t filming I see JB not caring where the marrieds went. 

[Soaper410]

My guess is Christmas is the Duggar Holiday cause Jesus...and lots of filming stuff.

My daughter is 15 months and I would LOATHE a thanksgiving where I had 271937 other kids there.  Loved my 5lbs of potatoes, dressing and a quiet thanksgiving with a 7:1 adult to kid ratio!  

[awaken]

4 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

It's so true that there are endless contributing factors to reproducing. One huge factor is at one point JB & M starting timing their activities to increase the odds of Michelle becoming pregnant. I'm guessing the married couples are just having unprotected sex and "leaving it in God's hands".

Exactly. This has always been a sticking point for me with regards to the D’s.  They didn’t leave it up to god, as much as they promote that as being what they did. They took things into their own hands and manipulated the natural process for their own benefit, at a cost to the children. 

Im curious as to whether the Bates are more naturally fertile, or if they were trying for “as many as possible “ vs “as many as god provides”. Big difference in my mind! 

[Temperance]

6 hours ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Seems a bit of a stretch to find a pattern after two births, but maybe all of them have sort of made a mutual decision to not follow their parents' example of consciously striving to have as many children as possible and are at least engaging in some natural family planning. I suspect that Henry was probably a bit of an "oops", and that Jessa has fine-tuned her methods a bit since then. I expect that most to all of the Duggar offspring will wait until their previous baby is at least a year old before trying again, and while they may have a few children relatively close in age, any that come along after that number will also be random "oopsies". They may have been eager to start families, and I can't say I necessarily blame them, but they may have actually learned more than they let on from having grown up in a family as large as theirs. As much as they present everything as being sunshine and rainbows 24/7, I'd be surprised if most of them didn't feel some resentment at being thrust into the sort of life they were dealt.

 

Well Duggar data made their predictions with even less data. I finally looked up Duggar Data on Scarlett45's rec. There was a enough data from Michelle, who by the way had a baby every 13 months give or take 3 months, according to Duggar Data. But they made these predictions a year ago with even less data. 

  If they're really leaving it up to God, I doubt most will have at least a year before having another one.  I tend to think that Jill and maybe Joy (too soon to say) would ideally like to have a VBAC or know that they need more time after a c-section. 

I also agree with you that try to make it sound like rainbows and sunshine, since they probably feel like they have no choice but to have children. I don't know if they eager to have babies so much as they know it's likely to happen. 

5 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

It's so true that there are endless contributing factors to reproducing. One huge factor is at one point JB & M starting timing their activities to increase the odds of Michelle becoming pregnant. I'm guessing the married couples are just having unprotected sex and "leaving it in God's hands".

 I agree with this.

Edited November 25, 2018 by Temperance

[Sew Sumi]

If Jill sets a pattern of spacing, I think she's due to conceive this month or next. We shall see, I guess.

[SMama]

How about never again until she and Derelict can support them financially, and care for them. I know it’s not my call, but darn those two don’t seem into parenting. Their interest in breeding is to appear Godly.

[sigmaforce86]

22 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Yes I agree. Austin didn’t come from a mega family, he’s one of two. I don’t think his grandparents or great grandparents lived with him or needed care in the home, meaning he hasn’t seen the physical and emotional energy being a caregiver requires. He was shocked. I’ve noticed this about a lot of first time parents, but my friends remind me that I grew up in a world having to care for family in the home (due to various disabilities and age) so one infant doesn’t phase me. For many people becoming a parent is literally the first time they’ve had to care for another human being. 

Well maybe Austin could get used to caring for his family in the home if he actually tried to have a home instead of moving his wife and baby and all the accompanying stuff that comes with babies from a flip house to a cramped trailer/RV to another flip house.  Even if you don't "spoil" and go with just the necessities babies need stuff and stuff needs to be kept someplace; I really thought once Austin saw what it took to raise even one baby he'd find a house to settle in while he flipped other properties.  Rumor is they made $70,000 on the house they renovated while she was pregnant but they moved into an RV when they sold it.  Wonder how long he'll try to keep doing that while dragging Joy, Giddy and future blessings with him.

[Absolom]

Perhaps he'll use that lifestyle as an "excuse" for why they only one or two children.  I can't see Austin doing more than about three children.

[Normades]

On ‎11‎/‎24‎/‎2018 at 9:25 PM, Lunera said:

That's good, I didn't think she was. Hopefully she waits the recommend time after a c section. I think they are abstaining, that's why Austin practically mentioned being miserable in his marriage. 

I wonder what is the fundie rule when there are medical risks to the woman if she conceives.  Do they completely abstain?  Do they try NFP and hope that god keeps them safe? Or does the husband basically have his "needs" met and if the wife becomes pregnant, god will take care of them?  I can't see some of these guys going along with not having regular sex after they followed the rules.  It makes me crazy that they won't simply use birth control, especially when the woman's health is an issue.  When I was in Catholic school, we were taught that the woman could tell her husband that she was not in the mood, didn't feel well, or if they were trying to limit family size that it was her fertile time, but if the man insists, then she HAS to have sex with him!!  This was in the 80's.  I couldn't believe I was being told I had basically no agency at all over my body.  One of the many reasons I am no longer a Christian.

I guess I shouldn't be thinking about the sex lives of these people so much, either!!!

[BitterApple]

36 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Perhaps he'll use that lifestyle as an "excuse" for why they only one or two children.  I can't see Austin doing more than about three children.

I can't either. He doesn't strike me as a kid person, and I think he's very black and white in how he views marriage, where it's his job to bring in the money and Joy does everything else. I don't think he was planning on doing any hands-on care for Giddy-up prior to the emergency c-section. 

[graefin]

2 hours ago, Absolom said:

Perhaps he'll use that lifestyle as an "excuse" for why they only one or two children.  I can't see Austin doing more than about three children.

And yet, in a scene on the show right after Gideon was born, where Joy was talking about not being able to imagine dealing with a bunch of children, Austin immediately chimed in with, "the Lord will give you what you need to cope" (paraphrased). Joy, of course, fell into line once he said it and agreed. Maybe he was just parroting the party line and didn't truly mean it, but there you have it.

[McManda]

1 hour ago, graefin said:

Austin immediately chimed in with, "the Lord will give you what you need to cope" (paraphrased).

The Lord will give her what she needs to cope? He obviously didn't give her a helpful, understanding husband. 

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, graefin said:

Austin immediately chimed in with, "the Lord will give you what you need to cope" (paraphrased).

Yeah the Lord will give JOY what she needs to cope.  When Austin isn't given what he needs to cope, the kid train will stop.  I don't think family life is quite what he thought it was.  

[Loves2Dance]

6 hours ago, Normades said:

I wonder what is the fundie rule when there are medical risks to the woman if she conceives.  Do they completely abstain?  Do they try NFP and hope that god keeps them safe? Or does the husband basically have his "needs" met and if the wife becomes pregnant, god will take care of them?  I can't see some of these guys going along with not having regular sex after they followed the rules.  It makes me crazy that they won't simply use birth control, especially when the woman's health is an issue.  When I was in Catholic school, we were taught that the woman could tell her husband that she was not in the mood, didn't feel well, or if they were trying to limit family size that it was her fertile time, but if the man insists, then she HAS to have sex with him!!  This was in the 80's.  I couldn't believe I was being told I had basically no agency at all over my body.  One of the many reasons I am no longer a Christian.

I guess I shouldn't be thinking about the sex lives of these people so much, either!!!

Women becomes martyr's if they die while pregnant or in labor. They don't care about the mother's safety. 

[Christina87]

6 hours ago, Normades said:

I wonder what is the fundie rule when there are medical risks to the woman if she conceives.  Do they completely abstain?  Do they try NFP and hope that god keeps them safe? Or does the husband basically have his "needs" met and if the wife becomes pregnant, god will take care of them?  I can't see some of these guys going along with not having regular sex after they followed the rules.  It makes me crazy that they won't simply use birth control, especially when the woman's health is an issue.  When I was in Catholic school, we were taught that the woman could tell her husband that she was not in the mood, didn't feel well, or if they were trying to limit family size that it was her fertile time, but if the man insists, then she HAS to have sex with him!!  This was in the 80's.  I couldn't believe I was being told I had basically no agency at all over my body.  One of the many reasons I am no longer a Christian.

I guess I shouldn't be thinking about the sex lives of these people so much, either!!!

This makes me think about gone with the wind, when Scarlett decides she doesn't want any more kids, and informs Rhett, who says, "okay, then I'll get my needs met elsewhere." Then Scarlett gets upset because Ashley "is okay with it" (I'm guessing abstinence) because melanie can't have any more children. We tend to think of birth control always having been here (I know I do sometimes!), but for most of human history, this was an issue! I guess it would depend on the severity of the condition; maybe if you just didn't want another child, or weren't sure you could afford it, you might try natural family planning. However, if having another child could kill you, you probably would lean towards abstaining completely! I'm sure some husbands forced their wives to do it in those circumstances; think how horrible you would feel! Some men really valued their wives (like Ashley Wilkes) and would quietly abstain, even if they hated having to. Then, I could definitely see plenty of men denying their wives because of finances, or just not wanting more! The more I think about it, the more birth control makes everyone equal, and it's sad the duggars can't experience it. Otherwise, the man has total say; he can force a woman to do it when it could kill her, or deny her and cause her to suffer because he made the unilateral decision of no sex. While these situations could hypothetically happen with birth control, they would be a lot less likely. I hope some of the duggars can at least use it on the down low!

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

I hope some of the duggars can at least use it on the down low!

I won't be surprised if any of the Duggars who have talked about contraception theology with Jeremy have decided that it's OK.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Christina87 said:

This makes me think about gone with the wind, when Scarlett decides she doesn't want any more kids, and informs Rhett, who says, "okay, then I'll get my needs met elsewhere." Then Scarlett gets upset because Ashley "is okay with it" (I'm guessing abstinence) because melanie can't have any more children. We tend to think of birth control always having been here (I know I do sometimes!), but for most of human history, this was an issue! I guess it would depend on the severity of the condition; maybe if you just didn't want another child, or weren't sure you could afford it, you might try natural family planning. However, if having another child could kill you, you probably would lean towards abstaining completely! I'm sure some husbands forced their wives to do it in those circumstances; think how horrible you would feel! Some men really valued their wives (like Ashley Wilkes) and would quietly abstain, even if they hated having to. Then, I could definitely see plenty of men denying their wives because of finances, or just not wanting more! The more I think about it, the more birth control makes everyone equal, and it's sad the duggars can't experience it. Otherwise, the man has total say; he can force a woman to do it when it could kill her, or deny her and cause her to suffer because he made the unilateral decision of no sex. While these situations could hypothetically happen with birth control, they would be a lot less likely. I hope some of the duggars can at least use it on the down low!

Condoms have been around a long time. And there are many ways to be intimate outside of vaginal penile intercourse (of course I know you know that I’m just saying). In ye olden days before hormonal contraception many couples did obtain from vaginal penile intercourse when they didn’t want to conceive a child or couldn’t afford it right now etc etc. Of course men always had the option of stepping out of their marriage for sex in a ways women did not......

Sadly women are raped by their husbands even in 2018. I would hope Austin wouldn’t do such a thing but in their world view Joy’s body belongs to HIM as his wife (irrespective of her health concerns, desire for children etc etc)- now according to their doctrine it goes the other way as well (his body belongs to her) but how often do the fundy men practice that? Despite being a dipshit in a lot of ways I don’t see JB as that type of man, nor do I see Ben as that type of man.

 I don’t think Derrick cares about having sex with Jill that much- I think he hates her. 

[Normades]

52 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

now according to their doctrine it goes the other way as well (his body belongs to her) but how often do the fundy men practice that?

Well, in my opinion, Josh is stuck in the situation of not wanting more children, but Anna wants to continue having more and more.  Theoretically, he could decide to use birth control, but I doubt he will ever overcome his upbringing or that Anna would ever go along with it, even though she is supposed to submit.  I think Anna would run right to Boob and tell on Josh if he ever tried to convince her to stop having children.  Basically he trade tattle tale Jill for Anna. Plus he is stuck under Boob's thumb for monetary support, so he's really screwed (no pun intended).  Now I'm not saying feel sorry for him, but it just shows there are some men who are not happy with their doctrine in practice.  Their whole way of life seems to bring so much unhappiness.

[mousegirl]

Regarding the Gone With the Wind reference, if my memory of the book serves, Melanie died at the end because of a pregnancy her body couldn't handle.  Ashley did NOT restrain himself, although I seem to remember that she did not want to resist him anyway, that she was deeply and passionately in love with him and definitely wanted another child.  (It's been a long time since I last read the book - I really despise the Scarlett O'Hara character - so I may have forgotten some elements of the story).

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, mousegirl said:

Regarding the Gone With the Wind reference, if my memory of the book serves, Melanie died at the end because of a pregnancy her body couldn't handle.  Ashley did NOT restrain himself, although I seem to remember that she did not want to resist him anyway, that she was deeply and passionately in love with him and definitely wanted another child.  (It's been a long time since I last read the book - I really despise the Scarlett O'Hara character - so I may have forgotten some elements of the story).

Yes. I’m a huge Gone with the Wind & Scarlett O’Hara (hence my name) fan. Melanie was passionately in love with Ashley and did want another child, she did pass away from complications of a miscarriage. 

[Scarlett45]

9 hours ago, Normades said:

Well, in my opinion, Josh is stuck in the situation of not wanting more children, but Anna wants to continue having more and more.  Theoretically, he could decide to use birth control, but I doubt he will ever overcome his upbringing or that Anna would ever go along with it, even though she is supposed to submit.  I think Anna would run right to Boob and tell on Josh if he ever tried to convince her to stop having children.  Basically he trade tattle tale Jill for Anna. Plus he is stuck under Boob's thumb for monetary support, so he's really screwed (no pun intended).  Now I'm not saying feel sorry for him, but it just shows there are some men who are not happy with their doctrine in practice.  Their whole way of life seems to bring so much unhappiness.

This is true, but I still think Josh has more bodily autonomy than Anna has. He can make the choice to just NOT have sex with her (hence no more children). Despite JB not liking the idea of a separation, he cannot force Josh to have sex with Anna. I don’t think Anna has the same option  (to not have sex with Josh). I could be wrong of course, JB could’ve offered to back her up on an in-house separation, BUT I think Anna still wants Josh as awful as that is. Josh may have been just fine with an in-house separation. 

[MargeGunderson]

Josh 'overcame his upbringing' enough to abuse his sisters and try to have an affair (or did have an affairs), so maybe it's time he put his rebellious streak to good use and get a vasectomy already. 

[lookeyloo]

58 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

This is true, but I still think Josh has more bodily autonomy than Anna has. He can make the choice to just NOT have sex with her (hence no more children). Despite JB not liking the idea of a separation, he cannot force Josh to have sex with Anna. I don’t think Anna has the same option  (to not have sex with Josh). I could be wrong of course, JB could’ve offered to back her up on an in-house separation, BUT I think Anna still wants Josh as awful as that is. Josh may have been just fine with an in-house separation. 

I too think Anna still wants Josh. And still wants to be joyfully available. She is a young healthy woman. I know we would rather be celibate that welcome Josh in that way but I’m guessing Anna doesn’t. 

[Scarlett45]

52 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Josh 'overcame his upbringing' enough to abuse his sisters and try to have an affair (or did have an affairs), so maybe it's time he put his rebellious streak to good use and get a vasectomy already. 

Amen. Josh has no problem not following “rules” when it suits him, he’s got more choices than Anna even within the confines of their culture. No sympathy for him what so ever. 

[Scarlett45]

1 minute ago, lookeyloo said:

I too think Anna still wants Josh. And still wants to be joyfully available. She is a young healthy woman. I know we would rather be celibate that welcome Josh in that way but I’m guessing Anna doesn’t. 

I agree. For the record I’m not shaming Anna for being a young healthy woman with a sex drive. According to her religious beliefs a husband and wife are supposed to satisfy each other and going outside the marriage isn’t an option (among most of the population marriage means sexual monogamy). But even if she really believes Josh has changed more kids are a BAD idea. Just BAD. 

[lookeyloo]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree. For the record I’m not shaming Anna for being a young healthy woman with a sex drive. According to her religious beliefs a husband and wife are supposed to satisfy each other and going outside the marriage isn’t an option (among most of the population marriage means sexual monogamy). But even if she really believes Josh has changed more kids are a BAD idea. Just BAD. 

And I agree with you - but their wheelhouse doesn’t provide for anything but unprotected intercourse and so unless they don’t participate or one of them uses something, there will be more babies whether they want them or not. But then how did they manage to skip a year between babies?  They had to either avoid each other or use some kind of family planning.