S01.E10: Last Christmas

[Lady Calypso]

Also, what hurt about the Toby collapsing scene was the way he fell. I honestly thought for a solid five seconds that the way he fell over the coffee table, that maybe he snapped his neck or hurt it really badly. The collapse just looked absolutely brutal, but it felt so real. A lot of TV shows have that cliche "sway and fall daintily onto the ground" fall. This one actually made my heart skip a beat. So good job on Helen Hunt for directing that scene the way that she did.

1 minute ago, ShadowFacts said:

They had an action-packed Thanksgiving as well.  Randall is a real carpe diem kind of guy.  Moss does not grow under his feet.  I would kind of like somebody like him in my family circle. 

Same here. I just assumed that Randall already had some food pre-prepared. Kate didn't cancel until probably in the early evening (it was dark), William probably cancelled sometime during the afternoon after his meeting, and Kevin cancelled right after Sloane not-so-invited-as-much-as-demanded his presence over for Hanukkah, so Randall probably was only popping over to the work Christmas party and then rushing home to serve dinner for probably 7. The girls were asleep when Toby collapsed, so I imagine it was around 11 when that happened. So it seemed pretty packed in, but maybe it wasn't.  

[ShellSeeker]

2 hours ago, Court said:

I don't have an issue with Rebecca brushing off Kate's tummy ache. I would and have done the exact same thing. 

She was/is concerned about Kate. It was clear to me she feels a lot of guilt and does love Kate. You can see the strained relationship they have and I can see how it got there.

I didn't have a problem with this either. Kids know how to push your buttons, and daughters especially know how to push their moms' buttons. Mine sure does.

One morning she kept saying she didn't feel well. This was after a pattern, over a week or 2, of ravenous hunger suddenly triggered by the word "bedtime," and a mysterious stomach ache that only I ever heard about, that would also coincidentally strike when it was time to get ready for bed. So I was inclined not to believe her. She said she felt like she was going to throw up, and I said, "If you're going to throw up, go into the bathroom and do it. I want to see it actually happen." She marched into the bathroom and proceeded to puke her guts out. I of course felt like the world's worst mother. On the other hand, my husband was very impressed that she was able to vomit on command.

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I was VERY upset that nobody went after him, or called anyone, or anything. Were I Randall, I would not assume I'd literally talked him off the ledge, but that Beth's entering had just made him change his mind about doing it there. I'd be terrified that he was just going to go back to hotel room and off himself. His problems are still there, he's still about to lose his wife and his job. I would at least try to call his estranged ex or something, who might hate him and want to divorce him but presumably doesn't want him to splat himself all over New York.  I love Jimmi Simpson so much that I was far more concerned about him than Toby or Dr. Folksy. I really do hope there is some kind of follow up about him, tho I doubt there will be. I'd be perfectly happy if he became a new cast member!

I think Randall at least convinced him not to do it that night, when he pointed out that if he did, then Christmas Eve would always be a horrible day for Chloe (his daughter). How did he put it? Something like, "This will always be the day that her dad splattered himself all over the pavement." I would also love to see Jimmi Simpson as a regular on this show, but he seems to be popping up everywhere these days. I had a, "Hey look! It's William!" [Westworld] moment when I realized who it was.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

They had an action-packed Thanksgiving as well.  Randall is a real carpe diem kind of guy.  Moss does not grow under his feet.  I would kind of like somebody like him in my family circle. 

The wonderful chemistry of Randall, Beth and their daughters is pretty irresistible.   It wouldn't work as well with simply overachieving, massively successful Randall IMO, at least I wouldn't necessarily be so happy to see his great success and want to see him on my screen doing so well.  With Beth and the girls you clearly see he absolutely is a man on a mission, but he's not the main priority in his mission.  For me the love in their little family is what I can't get enough of.

[Arcadiasw]

1 hour ago, vendredi3 said:

Was I the only one who shouted out "Yay, a Christmas miracle!" when Toby collapsed? This episode had everything.

LOL! I didn't say "Yay" and though I'm shocked Toby had a heart attack part of me was thinking like Drago.  "If he dies, he dies." Still not the way I wanted him and Kate to end if they do, but if that's how it is, then that's what it will be.

53 minutes ago, Court said:

I don't have an issue with Rebecca brushing off Kate's tummy ache. I would and have done the exact same thing. 

She was/is concerned about Kate. It was clear to me she feels a lot of guilt and does love Kate. You can see the strained relationship they have and I can see how it got there.

I think what bugs me about Rebecca and little Kate is that Rebecca didn’t even look at Kate. She glanced but she went back to wrapping presents. I get the first time Rebecca will ignore Kate and I probably would’ve done the same thing. Jack did, too. When Kate mentioned her stomach a second time, I think as a parent you check the child over. Even if you think the child is lying, check the child just to call their bluff. Jack looked at Kate the second time, saw her hands on her face and leaning in pain. That’s why he went over and checked her. It just highlights what others have said, Jack is more nurturing. Some parents are like that. Mom is nurturing and Dad is not or it’s the other way around.

[Tikichick]

Anybody ever have any curiosity about how reliable the flashbacks we get are? 

[Cardie]

1 hour ago, OtterMommy said:

I'm planning to rewatch the episode later today, but was the envelope throwing boss the same one who was going to jump?

No, Andy said he came to the party because he needed to pick up his bonus check because his family would need money after he killed himself.

[Georgia]

Don't plays have understudies? 

I know they're reform, but I think she would know that Maccabee stands for hammer (it's also a Hebrew acronym for "Who is like you among the powers, O G-d?"). 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Georgia said:

Don't plays have understudies? 

I know they're reform, but I think she would know that Maccabee stands for hammer (it's also a Hebrew acronym for "Who is like you among the powers, O G-d?"). 

I think without one of the big stars, the producer pulled out and that's why they couldn't afford to do the play. I don't think Kevin would really have enough money to be able to produce it, but I could be wrong.

[OtterMommy]

2 minutes ago, deaja said:

I think without one of the big stars, the producer pulled out and that's why they couldn't afford to do the play. I don't think Kevin would really have enough money to be able to produce it, but I could be wrong.

There is no way he could financially produce a Broadway production, or even off-Broadway.

He could, however, pull off a regional or off-off-Broadway production.  That may sound like small beans, but many a Broadway hit came from such humble beginnings.

[AuntiePam]

34 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

Anybody ever have any curiosity about how reliable the flashbacks we get are? 

I think the flashbacks are as reliable as the present day scenes.  Unless we're supposed to be seeing them as memories.  ??

One nitpick I have is that Randall's house apparently doesn't have a guest room.  Just three bedrooms? 

[OtterMommy]

Just now, AuntiePam said:

I think the flashbacks are as reliable as the present day scenes.  Unless we're supposed to be seeing them as memories.  ??

One nitpick I have is that Randall's house apparently doesn't have a guest room.  Just three bedrooms? 

Beth said that she has an office, so my guess is that is how they are using the 4th bedroom--especially since it sounds like it is set up to handle houseguests, although not on a long-term basis (looking at you, Kev....)

[mojito]

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Anybody ever have any curiosity about how reliable the flashbacks we get are? 

I have stated this a couple of times. I can't make many judgments based on the little I've seen, the little I know of the characters and the circumstances, the point of view I'm shown.

I don't see any of the characters being portrayed negatively (except the actress). I don't like Jack more than Rebecca and don't even think she's being portrayed as a worst parent. I see her as the mother who is the parent who spends the most time with the kids and has made mistakes. Yet many people see her as a not-so-great parent or feel that she is portrayed negatively. I don't agree. I see her as the parent who is in the trenches and makes the most decisions and Jack as the fun guy who shows up at the end of the day. Rebecca's is the enforcer and she's the one who has to do most of the dirty work as far as home and kids are concerned.  We hardly know Jack at all. 

This show has a great way of twisting and turning people's opinions about the characters, all the while revealing only a little at a time. The writers must love reading this board. 

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One nitpick I have is that Randall's house apparently doesn't have a guest room.  Just three bedrooms? 

I think there are three bedrooms and Beth's office. When William came, she doubled up the girls to keep her office (perhaps she didn't expect him to stay long?). But then when Kevin arrived, she gave it up to him (she even made a comment to him about it). 

Edited December 7, 2016 by mojito

[Ms Blue Jay]

I'm always the one who comes out here writing some heartfelt essay because I love the show so much and it made me cry but I felt almost nothing for this episode.  

I liked the stuff with Gerald McRaney and the stuff between Randall and his coworker, because Sterling and Jimmi Simpson are so talented and it was so well-directed that the entire scene was very cinematic.  

But the rest of the stuff, meh.  I'll put my hand up as seemingly one of the lone people who would not care at all if Toby died.  

I think the issue with Mandy Moore is that she's just not an amazing actor.  It's not easy for someone of her age to pretend to be a 70-ish year old mother.  (I wonder how Sterling or Milo would handle playing that age, for instance. I assume it would be hard for anyone.)  So I don't really blame her.  I love her as Young Rebecca.  But she's not given much to work with, Mandy looks insanely perfect even for her own age, and that character is hard to play.  It's just not that believable.  Just like Miguel's hair and eyebrows.

I hate how the only thing Toby seemed to want from Kate was sex and then Kate delivered.  Ugh.  It seems so childish.  Maybe I should give Kate a break.  I don't know what her sexual history is like so maybe she does feel childish around Toby.

Kevin and Sloane.  Again.  I don't find it believable.  Kevin is that kind of character that is usually a female one that writers always feel the need to have them paired up with someone, like Ally McBeal or Carrie Bradshaw or Pam from The Office.  Olivia's a complete asshole, so Kevin likes her. Sloane is kind of a loser (sorry, I don't know how else to view her), so Kevin likes her.  Who is Kevin?  I really have no idea.  

As we all know that Beth is perfect, I didn't really like the part where Randall yelled at Beth to stay back and Beth wouldn't listen.  That seems stupid and dangerous.  What if there was some kind of gunman out there or something?  But maybe Beth was worried about Randall the way Randall worried for his coworker?

Edited December 7, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's the Previously.TV post on the episode!

Did This Is Us Save The Worst For 'Last Christmas'?

There are so many twists, Al Lowe is asking Santa for a whiplash brace this year.

[Pallas]

6 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

In general there's a "blame the mom" mentality in our society where there's so much pressure on women to be a perfect parent.  It's like there is no room for a woman to be a human being with flaws.  I really wish the writers were more balanced with Jack and how their parenting is portrayed and didn't make Rebeca the bad guy all the time. 

I think "Blame the mom" had a role in the 2016 presidential election. 

But the writers could be setting up a reversal of our blame-the-mom complex. Not so much a redemption tale as a re-imagining of all the treasured grudges, brought out of storage and given pride of place as regularly and reflexively as a creche or a menorah. The writers may make explicit what some of us suspect: we're viewing past incidents only through one character's skewed point of view. Perhaps we'll revisit those incidents from another perspective.

Was it actually Jack who felt Kate's forehead? Possibly: but it's also been proven to me, in black and white, that my memory has its own opinions about matters of fact. Can the mother who says, "You ate Santa's cookies" still be (1) correct; (2) able to take another look and see if there's more to your distress; (3) get you and your family re-organized for a trip to the ER and Christmas Eve in a waiting room, and (4) make up the Christmas greenery story before your sleigh ride on a gurney? Possibly -- and not because it's Christmas, or she's magic.

[Tikichick]

1 minute ago, mojito said:

I have stated this a couple of times. I can't make many judgments based on the little I've seen, the little I know of the characters and the circumstances, the point of view I'm shown.

I don't see any of the characters being portrayed negatively (except the actress). I don't like Jack more than Rebecca and don't even think she's being portrayed as a worst parent. I see her as the mother who is the parent who spends the most time with the kids and has made mistakes. Yet many people see her as a not-so-great parent or feel that she is portrayed negatively. I don't agree. I see her as the parent who is in the trenches and makes the most decisions and Jack as the fun guy who shows up at the end of the day. Rebecca's is the enforcer and she's the one who has to do most of the dirty work as far as home and kids are concerned.  We hardly know Jack at all. 

This show has a great way of twisting and turning people's opinions about the characters, all the while revealing only a little at a time. The writers must love reading this board. 

I've had similar thoughts.  I suspect we will see Jack portrayed in a less flattering light over time as well.   I actually like that they do splash the good and the bad around among the characters and I'm relieved that generally no one is painted to be a particular bad guy or villain.  That makes the stories much more believable to me, because we all have our moments where we shine and seem like the hero, as well as our less stellar moments where we hope the spotlight isn't there to catch us being a butt. 

Olivia's behavior at Thanksgiving, including her reaction to William's words, followed by her regression to nasty and empty ridiculousness at the cottage doesn't necessarily make me think she's horrid the way it does a lot of other people.  I felt like I was watching a very guarded individual who has spent a long time trying not to emotionally engage who then panicked when someone unexpectedly broke down her defenses, someone who she felt invulnerable to because she read him as being more emotionally empty and detached as she is.  I don't think she expected Kevin was deeper than a teaspoon and was terrified to discover she was wrong, and she had let down her defenses and was confronted with something more than a surface encounter. 

[Archery]

14 hours ago, LadyNebula said:

Am I the only one that became an armchair doctor when Toby collapsed?  Incidentally, my diagnosis is DVT.  He WAS sitting on a plane for 6 hours, after all.

I would guess that they rushed him into surgery because the DVT became a pulmonary embolism.  That feels and presents just like a heart attack.  I liked Toby showing up; who wouldn't want someone to come to the realization that they want you more than they want that other (ultimately unimportant) stuff.  I thought his speech was sweet.

Favorite Non-Verbal of the Week:  Beth, after realizing that William and Jesse are a couple, does that black woman "hide the lips, raise the eyebrows, and tip on out of the room" thing.  I fell out laughing because that is EXACTLY what I would have done.

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I'm really sick of Rebeca being the parent who screws up with the kids and being the parent the kids are angry at as adults and Jack being the great parent.   On one level I get that the kids would romanticize the parent who died and be more critical for the parent who is still around.    But the show seems to make a point to have Jack come off better in the flashbacks.  Kevin blames Rebeca for favoring Randall, Kate blames her for mishandling her weight as a child, and Rebeca's the one who unilaterally decided to keep Randall from William.  Of course the writers have Rebeca assume Kate's stomach ache is from too much cookies, and super parent Jack's the one who realizes it's more serious.   In general there's a "blame the mom" mentality in our society where there's so much pressure on women to be a perfect parent.  It's like there is no room for a woman to be a human being with flaws.  I really wish the writers were more balanced with Jack and how their parenting is portrayed and didn't make Rebeca the bad guy all the time.  I feel a lot of sympathy for her.

I get what you're saying, but I don't think the show making Rebecca the bad guy; they are showing her as real.  She feels the pressure because she is the primary caretaker, the one who keeps track of all the details.  Jack gets to skim the surface, and gets to have the fun moments.  Of course he comes off better.  As for Rebecca/Kate:  personally, I know very well what it feels like to watch your pre-teen, chubby daughter reach for that third brownie, or heaping second helping of mac and cheese, and bite your tongue.  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation.  Because I know I should help her learn good eating habits and portion control, but the chapter on how to accomplish that without triggering self-image problems seems to be missing from my parenting manual.  And when she is an adult and dealing with high blood pressure, diabetes, or infertility, I will know that part of the reason is that I didn't say, You've had enough for now.  And I think Rebecca just added that to her list of Things I Didn't Do Well Enough As A Mother. 

I did feel like the episode had a little too much content, and lacked the characteristic slow burn. 

My favorite line was actually Randall's, where he tells Andy something like, "Chloe will forgive you, unless she can't."

[ShadowFacts]

11 minutes ago, Archery said:

As for Rebecca/Kate:  personally, I know very well what it feels like to watch your pre-teen, chubby daughter reach for that third brownie, or heaping second helping of mac and cheese, and bite your tongue.  It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation. 

The thing that felt wrong to me in that scene is that Rebecca tossed off the line about the package of cookies in a passive-aggressive manner, immediately assuming that was the problem, instead of talking to Kate directly about it, privately, when she discovered the open package.  That wasn't helpful in the moment or in the big picture, it betrayed a little hostility the way I saw it.  Plus, I don't believe a fun, hands-on parent like Jack would settle for packaged Santa cookies -- they would have been home made by the whole gang with flour and frosting everywhere.   Nitpick.  Oh, also, the kids are a little old for Santa belief unless they didn't and it was just tradition being kept up. 

[lawyergal]

On a long term basis, the show needs to figure out how to get Kate to the NYC area, and killing off Toby also kills off the one major reason she might have stayed in LA. I'm one of the few who liked Toby, but I'm also really liking the idea that he's dead. I always felt like the "fat girl meets perfect, charming guy" in the weight loss class was a little too cliché, especially for this show, and if they stayed together I was concerned about long term story arcs for Kate. But, having her boyfriend die, and working through that while also working through the diet/possible surgery issues - well, I can see Chrissy Metz really hitting that out of the park.

[Tikichick]

3 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The thing that felt wrong to me in that scene is that Rebecca tossed off the line about the package of cookies in a passive-aggressive manner, immediately assuming that was the problem, instead of talking to Kate directly about it, privately, when she discovered the open package.  That wasn't helpful in the moment or in the big picture, it betrayed a little hostility the way I saw it.  Plus, I don't believe a fun, hands-on parent like Jack would settle for packaged Santa cookies -- they would have been home made by the whole gang with flour and frosting everywhere.   Nitpick.  Oh, also, the kids are a little old for Santa belief unless they didn't and it was just tradition being kept up. 

That might be an exaggeration of Jack's super parenting.  I think we need to keep in mind what Jack had to say about the volume of presents under their tree -- We have three kids AND I work hard.  I'm not so sure Jack was necessarily available enough to oversee Christmas baking shenanigans.

[OtterMommy]

4 minutes ago, ShadowFacts said:

The thing that felt wrong to me in that scene is that Rebecca tossed off the line about the package of cookies in a passive-aggressive manner, immediately assuming that was the problem, instead of talking to Kate directly about it, privately, when she discovered the open package.  That wasn't helpful in the moment or in the big picture, it betrayed a little hostility the way I saw it.  Plus, I don't believe a fun, hands-on parent like Jack would settle for packaged Santa cookies -- they would have been home made by the whole gang with flour and frosting everywhere.   Nitpick.  Oh, also, the kids are a little old for Santa belief unless they didn't and it was just tradition being kept up. 

My husband is in his mid-40s and still believes in Santa (albeit not exactly in the "Jolly Guy in a Red Suit" sort of way).  Personally, I was never told that Santa wasn't real.  Instead, my mother always said that Santa is the spirit of Christmas so, I guess, I still believe in him.

(About to air dirty family laundry)...
All this, of course, is in light of the fact that a mall Santa played a part in the break up of my brother's marriage.  Let me tell you, nearly 40 years on and I still tell people that my crazy ex-SIL had an affair with Santa Claus.

[JenE4]

I appreciate the timetable analysis at the top of this page. That was my #1 burning question: How the hell did they have time to cook a ham?! First Thanksgiving, now this. Maybe they have a convection oven instead of a standard oven and thus can cook in a fraction of the time.

I'm going with Toby surviving. They made a point of showing him still alive in the hospital, and even though he jerked (which could have been the moment of death), they still had the monitors going beep-beep-beep-beep instead of the flatlining beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep. 

I'm also going with "Last Christmas" being a reference to the Wham song and precisely "this year...I'll give [my heart] to someone special," as we had several characters giving their hearts to someone this episode: Kevin > Sloan, William > Jessie, Rebecca > Kate, Kate > Toby, Randall > suicidal coworker > daughter Chloe, hell, even little Randall > Dr. Folksy, etc.

[Court]

The kids are 8 or 9? It's not too old. It may be the last year they believe but you'd be surprised at how many 9 year olds still believe in Santa. This is based on my imformal poll of moms the other week. We all have 8/9 year olds and all of them still believe.

Or the ham was already cooked and they picked it up from honeybaked ham.

[PRgal]

Just now, Court said:

The kids are 8 or 9? It's not too old. It may be the last year they believe but you'd be surprised at how many 9 year olds still believe in Santa. This is based on my imformal poll of moms the other week. We all have 8/9 year olds and all of them still believe.

Or they play along.  I played along until I was 11.  I'm an only child.  I kind of HAD to.

[Court]

Just now, PRgal said:

Or they play along.  I played along until I was 11.  I'm an only child.  I kind of HAD to.

They could be fooling us, lol. I prefer to believe that they still believe.  I do think my 9 year old won't next year but he has younger siblings so he has to play along regardless. 

[AmandaPanda]

I absolutely know some 8 and 9-year olds that still believe in Santa. They're the ones who still have that innocence and sense of wonder intact. I firmly believe that Kate and Randall would still believe in Santa at that age. I feel like Kevin was always a touch more jaded than the others.

As far as the reliability of the flashbacks, I believe they are accurate. Until they show us that the flashbacks are from a specific character's point of view, I trust them. Now, if they turn out to be Randall's memory of Christmas or Kevin's memory of Thanksgiving, then we could better question the validity. I think the writers are just telling a story in two timelines and the point of view is the writer.

I don't want Toby to be dead because I feel like that's kind of a cheap way to get Kate to stay on the East Coast, but I also trust the writers to tell an authentic story.

[DoubleUTeeEff]

Once again, a man knows what is better for a woman than the woman herself.  I really hate that Kate broke up with Toby to work on herself and then Toby flies 6 hours to surprise her at a family celebration (a family he's never met BTW) and Kate is happy to see him.  Why, show, why?  Why can't a woman express her needs and desires and actually be believed and respected for it?  And if she is disrespected, like Toby did to Kate, why can't she tell him off?  Why does he have to be right?  Gah!  I'm going to need more than one phone call between them to know that Kate really wanted this before it happened.  I just hate that Toby makes all these grand gestures and they always land.  Maybe check with the woman first to see what she wants rather than just going ahead with what YOU want and expecting her to be happy about it.

And then Toby has a heart attack and makes me feel bad!  I actually hope he is not dead.  I don't hate him, I just hate the way the show portrays the Kate/Toby "romance."  Just the whole man pursues woman thing where the woman has so little agency.

I am however enjoying the Randall/Beth and Kevin/Sloane relationships, and now the William/forgot his name relationship.  I'm so glad the description was wrong about Olivia.

I am so amazed at how well some of the child actors do, young Kevin was heartbreaking and Tess delivered the "he's gay or at least bi" line perfectly.

[ClareWalks]

2 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Once again, a man knows what is better for a woman than the woman herself.  I really hate that Kate broke up with Toby to work on herself and then Toby flies 6 hours to surprise her at a family celebration (a family he's never met BTW) and Kate is happy to see him.  Why, show, why?

I agree. When I saw it was Toby my mouth dropped open and I said "OH NO HE DI'IN'T" out loud. Kate could have had least given him a "what the ACTUAL fuck?" face before his Big Speech.

[Lady Calypso]

2 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Once again, a man knows what is better for a woman than the woman herself.  I really hate that Kate broke up with Toby to work on herself and then Toby flies 6 hours to surprise her at a family celebration (a family he's never met BTW) and Kate is happy to see him.  Why, show, why?  Why can't a woman express her needs and desires and actually be believed and respected for it?  And if she is disrespected, like Toby did to Kate, why can't she tell him off?  Why does he have to be right?  Gah!  I'm going to need more than one phone call between them to know that Kate really wanted this before it happened.  I just hate that Toby makes all these grand gestures and they always land.  Maybe check with the woman first to see what she wants rather than just going ahead with what YOU want and expecting her to be happy about it.

I know that this is definitely a problem in television and it's going to take a lot to overcome this mentality. I love when I see women have agency, so I totally get it. Weirdly enough, I actually enjoyed the Toby going to fight for Kate aspect. He loves her just as much as she loves him. I think Toby showing up to try to get Kate was just hope that she would take him back. He had no idea if she even would. He risked it, took a chance, and hoped for the best. She could have turned him away and she was well within her right to. But I think Toby recognized that he had to put his own effort in because Kate would always have issues with her weight. I know that the show was trying to portray the scene as romantic, as the guy comes to fight for the girl. I guess I fell for it? I think it helps that it was clear to the both of them that they still loved each other when she broke up with him. Plus, he promised to continue dieting not just for her, but for himself, but probably mostly for her. 

Ok, but also I accidentally clicked on a link when I started the episode that said something about Toby so I knew that something bad was probably happening to him. That might have clouded my dislike for him when he showed up. 

I want him to live so him and Kate can really work on their issues together. Also, this'll be the second Chris Sullivan character death in 2016 that is quite violent and sudden, alright? I just got over the Benny from Stranger Things death and he was only in one episode! 

[ShadowFacts]

3 minutes ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

Once again, a man knows what is better for a woman than the woman herself.  I really hate that Kate broke up with Toby to work on herself and then Toby flies 6 hours to surprise her at a family celebration (a family he's never met BTW) and Kate is happy to see him.  Why, show, why?  Why can't a woman express her needs and desires and actually be believed and respected for it?  And if she is disrespected, like Toby did to Kate, why can't she tell him off?  Why does he have to be right?  Gah!  I'm going to need more than one phone call between them to know that Kate really wanted this before it happened.  I just hate that Toby makes all these grand gestures and they always land.  Maybe check with the woman first to see what she wants rather than just going ahead with what YOU want and expecting her to be happy about it.

I agree we need more than that one phone call.  If there was nothing else between the day after Thanksgiving and Christmas Eve, then what was Toby going on?  And why was Kate receptive if she had really gone cold turkey, no pun intended.  I was not happy to see him back, but not happy to see him keel, either.

 

5 minutes ago, AmandaPanda said:

I absolutely know some 8 and 9-year olds that still believe in Santa. They're the ones who still have that innocence and sense of wonder intact. I firmly believe that Kate and Randall would still believe in Santa at that age. I feel like Kevin was always a touch more jaded than the others.

Yes, I know kids who believed (or wanted to) who were older than that.  I was 6, my kids were, too, so maybe it's genetic.  Kidding.  I was the oldest so I got the fun of helping do the Santa duties after the younger ones were asleep.  I also know parents who don't go down the Santa road to begin with.  

[JudyObscure]

1 hour ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

I didn't really like the part where Randall yelled at Beth to stay back and Beth wouldn't listen.  That seems stupid and dangerous.  What if there was some kind of gunman out there or something?  

I laughed out loud at Beth. Her husband's words, stance, and tone all said, panic and danger, but nothing was as important as Beth asserting her inalienable right to go out on balconies. My sister in-law is very much like Beth, beautiful, professional and perfect.  My brother once told me that if she was in the street with a truck  bearing down on her and he screamed, "Move!"  She would put her hands on her hips and say, "Don't you raise your voice at me!"

[GodsBeloved]

Wasn't Kate's issue with Toby was his atttitude towards "dieting"? I thought she in essence said if he was going to eat whatever that would make it even harder for her and that's why she broke up with him. If I'm remembering correctly and now Toby is willing to change his attitude, I don't see that as Toby knowing what's better for Kate more than she does. He seems to be attempting to get in line with what she said she needs.

[Bluedog100]

Forgot to add one of my favorite exchanges.  When Kevin and Sloane were discussing losing backing for the show at Sloane's house:

Sloane's dad, "Let me tell you, those Broadway shows cost money! And plenty of it!  Why, they tried to get me to invest in a Broadway show. 'Wicked.' I wanted no part of that!"

Sloane's mother, dryly, "And here we are."

Paraphrasing a bit but it made me laugh.  Loved the whole scene at Sloane's house.

[OtterMommy]

14 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Wasn't Kate's issue with Toby was his atttitude towards "dieting"? I thought she in essence said if he was going to eat whatever that would make it even harder for her and that's why she broke up with him. If I'm remembering correctly and now Toby is willing to change his attitude, I don't see that as Toby knowing what's better for Kate more than she does. He seems to be attempting to get in line with what she said she needs.

My problems with the Toby re-appearance were:

1 - Just showing up at someone's house--someone you have NEVER met--is beyond odd. Especially if you have to fly 3000 miles to do it.  What if Kate had kicked him out?  What if everyone had come through on their cancellations and Toby showed up and Randall and Beth and the girls were the only ones there?  I get the grand gesture, but that was just a bit too much.  It reminds me of those over the top wedding proposal.  I'm all for romantic proposal, but when it is done in front of dozens, hundreds, thousands of people, does it give the proposee the ability (at least without undue pressure) to turn down the proposal if that is what they want?

2- Radio silence from him and then showing up makes no sense.  I mean, how did he even know Randall's address?  (I know...the internet...)

3 - It was just one more sign of Toby's lack of any boundaries.  Toby has some great qualities--he's warm-hearted and generous.  He's also pushy and has a tendency to steamroll over Kate.  This was just one more sign of it.

4 - I think Kate did quite a bit of growing in the past 2 episodes and, in one scene, it was all undone.

Now, did I want him to keel over?  No, of course not.  But I will say this...I really have no strong feelings about whether he lives or dies at this point.

Edited December 7, 2016 by OtterMommy
Typos

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, JenE4 said:

That was my #1 burning question: How the hell did they have time to cook a ham?!

Honey Baked Ham or the like works wonderfully. Just pop it in the oven for a few minutes to warm it up.

[roughing it]

Didn't William refer to this being his "last Christmas" in his AA share?

Re:  Olivia quitting the play.  Maybe she's used to her co-stars fawning over her and being so enamored of her, that she can't work with them unless they do.  I don't know, and I guess I don't care.

[annewithaneee]

8 minutes ago, OtterMommy said:

15 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Wasn't Kate's issue with Toby was his atttitude towards "dieting"? I thought she in essence said if he was going to eat whatever that would make it even harder for her and that's why she broke up with him. If I'm remembering correctly and now Toby is willing to change his attitude, I don't see that as Toby knowing what's better for Kate more than she does. He seems to be attempting to get in line with what she said she needs.

My problems with the Toby re-appearance were:

1 - Just showing up at someone's house--someone you have NEVER met--is beyond odd. Especially if you have to fly 3000 miles to do it.  What if Kate had kicked him out?  What if everyone had come through on their cancellations and Toby showed up and Randall and Beth and the girls were the only ones there?  I get the grand gesture, but that was just a bit too much.  It reminds me of those over the top wedding proposal.  I'm all for romantic proposal, but when it is done in front of dozens, hundreds, thousands of people, does it give the proposee the ability (at least without undue pressure) to turn down the proposal if that is what they want?

2- Radio silence from him and then showing up makes no sense.  I mean, how did he even know Randall's address?  (I know...the internet...)

3 - It was just one more sign of Toby's lack of any boundary.  Toby has some great qualities--he's warm-hearted and generous.  He's also pushy and has a tendency to steamroll over Kate.  This was just one more sign of it.

4 - I think Kate did quite a bit of growing in the past 2 episodes and, in one scene, it was all undone.

Now, did I want him to keel over?  No, of course not.  But I will say this...I really have no strong feelings about whether he lives or dies at this point.

Yep, I too wasn't moved one way or another because I have some real problems with how they're writing that character. If he does survive (which I kinda think he will), and their relationship plays out into a controlling, toxic, possibly emotionally abusive mess, kudos to the writers for foreshadowing it fairly subtly. But if he really is written with the intention of being a completely well-meaning supportive guy we're supposed to be rooting for....yeesh. He's overbearing and has little regard for boundaries, and seems to use grand gestures as romantic currency. Their relationship seems like one that could easily go dark. There's a lot of red flags for me for a guy who considers himself to be the 'nice guy' who women constantly reject. The quick introduction, and swift dismissal of his apparently emasculating bitch-monster of an ex wife also perturbed me. Not sure if they're setting him up to being a controlling gas-lighter, or if the show's just being really clumsy and lazy in setting up this romance.

[BananaRama]

Poor Rebecca.  This show is really tough on her character.  But her character does a lot of stuff and has the same flaws as a mom in real life.  I know that my mom wasn't perfect and as a result I'm dealing with her "motherly missteps" as an adult.

[catrox14]

Whilst I don't like Toby and I wish Kate would have given him the whatfor and kicked him to the curb, I didn't find it unrealistic for Kate to change her mind about Toby. I think Rebecca always makes Kate feel inferior and somewhat invisible or when she does make her feel visible it's always in context of Kate's struggles with her weight. I'm not recalling their really ever discussing Kate's life (thus far, anyway) beyond her weight. Toby showing back up might have given her  a moment of feeling better about herself. Maybe she was more amenable to Toby's reassurances that could work it out, after the talk with the surgeon and Rebecca because IMO she was having second-thoughts about the surgery. 

[PRgal]

2 hours ago, AuntiePam said:

I think the flashbacks are as reliable as the present day scenes.  Unless we're supposed to be seeing them as memories.  ??

One nitpick I have is that Randall's house apparently doesn't have a guest room.  Just three bedrooms? 

Exactly.  One would think a finished basement in Randall's kind of neighbourhood would have some sort of guest suite!  His house HAS to be at least $1.5M.  Maybe more. 

[jhlipton]

7 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

They need to dress Sloane in a tight blue shirt and khakis and try to sell Kevin an iPhone.

I'll keep my  comments about Milana Vayntrub out of the tight blue shirt to myself, but I'll be in my bunk.

6 hours ago, Haleth said:

I don't know how it could have happened but Beth must be descended from Lagertha.  She's that awesome.

More likely Seh-Dong-Hong-Beh.  The tales of the  Ahosi aka Mino are breathtaking.  (It's well-nigh impossible to be descended from them, but if anyone could do it, Beth would be the one!)  [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahomey_Amazons]

[tennisgurl]

Wow, there was a whole lot going on there. I dont even know where to start! 

First of all, I cant say I`m a big fan of Toby, and it makes me feel weird that he decided to just ignore Kate saying she needed space, and flying across the country, and going on about how much he wants to be with Kate, even when its only been a months! That being said, I dont want him to die! That fall was brutal too. It looks like he smashed his head on the table too, just very bad all around. Now I feel bad for rolling my eyes at him. Damn it show! 

Yes to more Sloan! I didnt really hate Olivia like others did, but Sloan is way more likable, and she even has a quirky family!  They actually have nice chemistry, and I like the idea of them running a play together. And Kate ships them already!

And we discover that William is just too awesome to be confined to just one gender. Hello there Dennis O'Hare! Nice to see you here! This was a pretty sad episode, but the look on Randalls face when he realized that Jessie and William were more than just buddies was amazing. His brain just exploded right there. 

I cant be expected to wait so long for a new episode! 

[tennisgurl]

Oh, and Jimmi Simpson makes an appearance, after a great turn over on Westworld! Great seeing him here. 

[izabella]

I know this board hates Toby, but the show and Kate took great pains to include dialogue from Kate saying she brought him breakfast in bed because he had done so many nice things for her already, and that he exceeded her wildest Hugh Grant dreams.  She was clear that the diet thing was the only reason she was breaking up with him, and how extremely difficult it was for her to let him go.  And they showed her calling him after they broke up. 

I can easily believe he gave her a month of space after the break-up, missed her so much because he does love her, and decided to give it his best to be with her.  Yes, he knows where Randall lives because Kate had invited him there for Thanksgiving and he planned to go and she canceled the day before, so he knows. 

Yes, Kate loves him too so yes, she was happy to see him when he showed up to ask her for another chance along with agreeing to work on his dieting as well - he gave her everything she wanted and was her dream Hugh Grant.  Why should she say no??

This was all spelled out for us on the show, so I don't really understand why Kate is being seen as lacking agency or somehow a victim of Toby's love and caring. 

[Laurie4H]

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I was indifferent on Toby but I hope he lives.  I still find it hard to believe he would be so into someone that drastically overweight considering he had a "hot" wife.  I think if Kate struggled with 50 or so lbs it would be more realistic....but then they probably couldn't use the gastro bypass story line then.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Laurie4H

[PRgal]

Sloane's family seems a bit stereotypical.  The mom, especially! 

[Jx223]

10 hours ago, Luckylyn said:

I'm really sick of Rebeca being the parent who screws up with the kids and being the parent the kids are angry at as adults and Jack being the great parent.   On one level I get that the kids would romanticize the parent who died and be more critical for the parent who is still around.    But the show seems to make a point to have Jack come off better in the flashbacks.  Kevin blames Rebeca for favoring Randall, Kate blames her for mishandling her weight as a child, and Rebeca's the one who unilaterally decided to keep Randall from William.  Of course the writers have Rebeca assume Kate's stomach ache is from too much cookies, and super parent Jack's the one who realizes it's more serious.   In general there's a "blame the mom" mentality in our society where there's so much pressure on women to be a perfect parent.  It's like there is no room for a woman to be a human being with flaws.  I really wish the writers were more balanced with Jack and how their parenting is portrayed and didn't make Rebeca the bad guy all the time.  I feel a lot of sympathy for her. 

The way that a lot of the adult children's problems being dumped at her feet is coming across as heavy handed, IMO. We knew that Kate and her had issues, but now they all have some sort of serious issue with her and I hope that the show eventually eases up on laying a lot of the blame for the things that The Big Three are dealing with on Rebecca. I think that one big reason the adult kids blame her more for Jack than stuff is because she spent more time with them and because she is their surviving parent. It may be easier for her to get blamed than their deceased father. I think that Jack dying has kind of made him a bit of a “martyr” with his children. She wasn’t a perfect mom, but I think that overall she was a pretty decent mom and loving. And she was definitely not that bad of a mother that everything bad the Big Three are dealing with as adults should circle back to her. 

I hope that the the Big Three will eventually develop better relationships with Rebecca and I also hope they take responsibility for the reasons why they are the way they are. Yes, Rebecca made mistakes as a parent, but they are adults and also responsible for the some of the things they are dealing with. And they definitely have the power and resources as adults to get whatever help they need to become better people. At the end of the day adults in general are ultimately responsible for our behavior, even if other things contribute to it. I am hoping they lay off the “Blame the mother” stuff for everything when it comes to the Big Three. 

 

32 minutes ago, izabella said:

I know this board hates Toby, but the show and Kate took great pains to include dialogue from Kate saying she brought him breakfast in bed because he had done so many nice things for her already, and that he exceeded her wildest Hugh Grant dreams.  She was clear that the diet thing was the only reason she was breaking up with him, and how extremely difficult it was for her to let him go.  And they showed her calling him after they broke up. 

I can easily believe he gave her a month of space after the break-up, missed her so much because he does love her, and decided to give it his best to be with her.  Yes, he knows where Randall lives because Kate had invited him there for Thanksgiving and he planned to go and she canceled the day before, so he knows. 

Yes, Kate loves him too so yes, she was happy to see him when he showed up to ask her for another chance along with agreeing to work on his dieting as well - he gave her everything she wanted and was her dream Hugh Grant.  Why should she say no??

This was all spelled out for us on the show, so I don't really understand why Kate is being seen as lacking agency or somehow a victim of Toby's love and caring. 

Toby may not be that popular on this board, but I have seen him get a lot of support on places like Twitter. People were posting things like “Pray for Toby” last night. It actually wouldn’t surprise me if overall more viewers liked him than disliked him. And I liked lines he said about deciding to go back on his diet. Paraphrasing "I got back on my diet. Not for you but for me. But also for you." Him and Kate love each other and I understand why they would want to get back together.

Edited December 7, 2016 by Jx223

[catrox14]

9 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.

LGBT people do exist in the real world and and often their families don't even know they are LBGT. It's a realistic LIFE issue. I'm not seeing how it's inclusion is political. 

[Lady Calypso]

7 minutes ago, Laurie4H said:

I don't care if William or anyone is gay but I feel like they do this for political reasons.  I'm sure there will be a transgender plot also.

I don't get this sense. In fact, I think they handled it more casually than most shows do. The overall reveal to the audience was so casual and so nonchalant that I appreciate they didn't make a big deal out of it all. And the "Gramps is gay, or at least bi" seemed to be more out of humor, and a way to show Randall that he still doesn't know his biological father as well as he could. There's still a lot that they need to learn before William dies.

I think it's because having LGBTQ characters is treated as such a big deal that shows/films are still thinking that it's a bigger deal than it should be (in theory). What I mean is not that having LGBTQ characters aren't a small deal, but the way they're presented on TV shows and movies is. One day, hopefully soon, there won't be a need for a coming out storyline, or used as a "political" message. I hope I explained myself properly; I'm not quite sure if I did! I just think this show handled the reveal a lot better than most. It's just a casual "hey, this person is into guys AND girls. Ok? Got it? Ok, let's move on and get back to the story". 

[ClareWalks]

Even in this day and age, it seems like some people think any mention (no matter how brief or casual) of sexuality is somehow "pushing an agenda," which is frustrating for me as an ally and must be ten times more frustrating for the community. My MIL is always raving about how Ellen Degeneres is "shoving gayness in [her] face" by mentioning HER WIFE on the show. Like, "Portia and I went apple-picking last weekend," or something. I think making William have a former boyfriend show up was just another way for the writers to throw in multiple twists with one fell swoop. The writers cannot resist those twists ;)