S01.E08: Pilgrim Rick

[Neurochick]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

When a person finds out adoption facts at a point when it's kind of too late, like the TV anchor mentioned above, there will be lots of questions that can't be answered, and I would think that would be hard to live the rest of one's life at peace with.

The anchor, as I remembered was able to find her birth parents; she found photographs of them.  Her bio-dad was in the army, stationed in Germany after the WWII and that was where he'd met her mother, a German woman.  BTW, the dad was black and the mother, white.  Her adoptive parents were both black, she never even knew she was biracial.  I think what helped was her sharing it with the public, at that time (I think this was in the 80's or the 90's)

I guess a person might always wonder "what if" but after awhile, if you don't accept it, you'll end up going crazy. (which I imagine can happen)

[SadieT]

5 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I know several people who have had gastric bypass. All lost tremendous amounts of weight ... and every single one gained it all back. Kate needs to "find herself" first, as she said, and learn that dieting is more than just eating dried leaves and cardboard. There actually IS real food she can eat to lose weight and keep it off.

My sister had gastric bypass about 8 years ago when she was in her early 20s. She was nearly 400 pounds at the time and her doctor told her if she didn't have the surgery she would likely have a heart attack before she turned 30. She lost over 250 pounds and has kept the weight off for several years and has made it to her 30th birthday healthier than ever. I've also know a couple of other people who had weight loss surgery and did not keep off the weight. It depends on what you put into it. My sister isn't on a dry leaf diet like Kate appears to be, she'll eat almost anything except a handful of foods that make her sick due to the surgery, but she's very strict about portion control and exercise. Her stomach being smaller probably makes sticking to correct portions a little easier but it's still a lot of work. I think gastric bypass could be very beneficial for Kate health-wise, but if she expects the surgery to be a magical instant cure, she won't succeed and failure after undergoing such a dramatic step could be very damaging to her mental and emotional health. That's why it's crucial for weight loss surgery patients to undergo counseling before and after surgery.  The actress's attitude towards surgery makes me think they'll have Kate reconsider, which is fine if she can lose weight without weight loss surgery, but I hope the show doesn't just write off the surgery as something that can never work or as taking the easy way out because it can be life-saving for some. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by SadieT

[ItCouldBeWorse]

2 hours ago, Tiger said:

In all seriousness, if Rebecca stated that she wasnt going to tell Randall, then Beth would have every right to.  But until or unless Rebecca did that, Beth had to keep it to herself.

I just rewatched and was reminded that Rebecca offered to accompany Randall on his drive to William's apartment.  I truly believe that she would have told him the truth while alone with him in the car, but Randall insisted she stay.

[mojoween]

"I'm waiting for my Uber."

(Beat)

"I don't know what that is."  Love William so much.

I also loved "even I'm too young for a VCR."

Police Academy 3 is a terrible movie.

Milo IS hot and I loved when he gave a little wink to Rebecca in the hotel room.

Poor Kevin.  I noticed in the picture a page or so back Kevin was laying against Jack's arm while Jack had his arm around Randall but not Kevin.  And then at the end of the ep Rebecca was snuggled with Randall and Jack was snuggled with Kate while Kevin was alone in the middle.

My mother always has three pies (cherry, pumpkin and a Dream pie and sometimes there is a fourth of chocolate).  I didn't realize that made us fancy.

I felt for Kate when all those assholes were judging her with their eyes when she was on the plane but FFS Kate, when you are boarding you don't stop in the aisle to talk on your phone.

[HeyThere83]

I think the scene with Kate breaking up with Toby was maybe the most authentic acting I've seen so far on the show. Also think Mandy is doing a good job as older Rebecca. She was good reacting to Randall without really even saying anything. Kevin reminding Rebecca he told her 8 times was another pitiful attempt at showing how she apparently doesn't care about him, I think. To me it was just more of his whining. Olivia seems 100% about her work. During that scene with William I thought.....someone might say "I can't imagine what it's like going through what you are right now" or something along those lines and he might respond similarly. She obviously went with a much more....direct? approach lol. Didn't really mind her during the episode I guess because I didn't think it was her intent to be cruel. I suppose she's too hardened or desensitized or out of touch with reality to see why this could come off badly. I do like that she has Kevin confused as to why she hasn't just fallen head over heels in love with him for the simple fact that he is him. Geez people really do have realizations and light bulb moments so quickly on this show. And the relationships move so so fast that when there is a moment that happens such as the kiss between Kevin and Olivia I have no clue why it's even happening. I know someone mentioned earlier that they have already had sex, but that seemed to just be all it was...no meaning behind it. And of course because Olivia considered it good prep for their show. But this kiss seemed to be for the purpose of showing passion and being full of emotion and caught up in the moment. It's hard to believe that when they have had maybe 3 scenes together with no build to something like that. The breakup between Toby and Kate would have been more effective had it not been for the fact that I feel like they just met.

[TobinAlbers]

6 minutes ago, mojoween said:

 

Poor Kevin.  I noticed in the picture a page or so back Kevin was laying against Jack's arm while Jack had his arm around Randall but not Kevin.  And then at the end of the ep Rebecca was snuggled with Randall and Jack was snuggled with Kate while Kevin was alone in the middle.

 

LOL, It says a lot how this show has trained us that we look for these things because I examined that photo in the exact same way! My consolation was that while Jack had his arm around Randall, his hand was resting on/gently grasping Kevin's leg so that he was showing physical contact/affection but no, it's not on the same level as an arm wrapped around you to pull you close.

Same with the final shot of them on the bed. Randall had to be placed with Becca since it was their relationship on display tonight in the present day. The choice is then either Kevin or Kate in the middle. On one hand you'd think he'd want to be as far away from Randall and get some snuggles in with dad, but since Kate is daddy's girl and Kevin knows this and seems to defer to her needs and she's the only girl and her being shoved to the middle visually puts more value placement on the boys, I got how she ended up being hugged by Jack. 

Which left poor Kevin stuck in the middle with no parent to hug him and buffered from their by his siblings.

[SueB]

I also thought the breakup scene was well done. Kate handled it very well.  She told Toby (honestly) that he was better than her Hugh Grant fantasy. But she also can't be with someone who is not on plan and she just KNOWS (IMO) he'd either cheat or resent her.  Her weight IS more important right now than that relationship.  She made a very smart decision. Giving up what you think is a great guy has to be very hard.  I doubt she dated a lot before. She seemed to be re-experiencing romance for the first time in a long time.  So kudos to her for a self-preservation move. 

[JennyMominFL]

7 hours ago, Neurochick said:

So you couldn't forgive the person who mothered you because she didn't allow you to meet a man who basically was stranger to Randall. IMO Jack was his father.  Randall is more like Jack than William because Jack raised him.    I don't get why biology is SO important, it's who raises you that's important.  Who is to say that Randall and William would have had any type of relationship?  

Years ago, people didn't tell things to children, ever.  I went to school with a girl who didn't know she had four half siblings, until she was twenty years old.  I went to school with a girl who, when her mother died of cancer, her father sent her to school the next day and didn't allow her to go to the funeral.  IMO none of this stuff was right, but both of these women came to realize many years later that their parents did what they did because they thought they were protecting them.  The father of the girl whose mom died thought his daughter (she was about 7 at the time) wouldn't be able to handle a funeral and wanted her life to go on as normal.  People do all kinds of screwed up stuff when they think they're protecting you. 

 

4

My mother told me my father died when I was two. When I was 13 I found her will which said that I should never be allowed to see him. I never told my mother that I knew that he wasn't dead. She eventually told me that he didn't really die when I was 2. She told me she actually divorced him right after I was born. She only told me a few years ago that he was beaten to death in a bar in 1980 when I was . She lied to protect me. She was wrong and I resent it. But the good she did outweighs the bad. Randall will probably realize this eventually but never quite get over the lies

[JennyMominFL]

5 hours ago, Sake614 said:

I dunno, when I'm hosting thanksgiving I do most of the cooking same day. Cranberry sauce, rolls and pies are made in advance but everything else is done that day. Of course I can't move for the rest of the weekend but I want everything to be fresh. I can't even imagine cooking the turkey in advance.

 

I made cranberry orange relish yesterday. Today I pre prepped the yams in orange cups.  I put my turkey into brine and made up the stuffing tonight to put in the turkey tomorrow. Mashed potatoes go in the crock pot first thing in the morning. I will cook the turkey/gravy  tomorrow, but much of the work for the dinner is done.

[Cardie]

I do cranberry sauce, cook the sweet potatoes and make stuffing Wednesday. After starting the turkey I put together the sweet potato casserole and the green beans. I don't bake so brought the pie home from the bakery on Tuesday. We don't do rolls or mashed potatoes. When turkey comes out to cool, sweet potatoes and beans heat up in the oven. I often manage not to have everything read at the same time though. My late mom totally synchronized the meal but I don't have that skill.

[cali1981]

I loved the scene between William and Olivia.  William's gentle lecture to her about how things get beyond our reach was beautifully written and Ron Cephas Jones' delivery was perfect. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by cali1981

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Because sometimes I need to remember Chevy Chase before he turned into Pierce Hawthorne in real life (and I loved Graceland):

[bros402]

14 hours ago, MaiSoCalled said:

I dislike Miguel, but I had the impression that this was not the first year he's talked about the hat. Maybe the grandchildren have requested be play the pilgrim or maybe Rebecca has mentioned it. I could even see Miguel being a part of a Thanksgiving celebration with Jack. He might want to honor his friend too. I was surprised and disappointed when Kevin let Miguel wear the hat, but I think it's because this is the first year that we've seen it. I'm not invested in Miguel's story yet. I still want to know about the Big 3 and their traditions. If this was season 3, I think I'd be happy to see Miguel get the hat.

I think we were meant to see Olivia as blunt, rather than rude. I still don't love her - I thought her entire pie story was a lie, just another part she was playing. 

I think if he had asked before - they would've put it in one of the lines. That'd make sense, at least.

[jeansheridan]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:09 PM, Court said:

Where the heck are Miguel's kids? I haven't seen him trying to connect in any way with the adult kids. The grandkids, yes.  Randall has obviously let his kids have a relationship with his kids considering they call him Grandpa. 

 

 

For all we know, Miguel deserves the animosity. Or maybe he doesn't. I just have sympathy for the kids. Having a parent remarry is tough even when the other parent is alive. Jack is gone, so that makes it worse.

These aren't "kids" however.  Jack has been dead for at least 10 years based on Kate's football story.  I like Kevin in general but I found him so obnoxious this entire episode (adult Kevin).  His open hostility to Miguel, his annoyance his mother can't recall the play name, how he invited Olivia (black brother, fat sister!), how he said no to Miguel' s request.  One incident would be okay but piled on?  I don't like Olivia either but fleeing that situation was a good move.

I did like her bluntness with William.  She may be a stereotype but we have seen her be ruthless when it comes to research.  That long moment when he stared at her and then decided to answer was great.  She didn't back down.  Rude and ballsy.  

This was the first episode where I preferred the flashbacks.

Also I may be made of stone but I am starting to dislike Randall' s daughters and their lack of personality beyond "cute".  What child says "You are pretty" meeting a random adult?  My friends' daughters never greet strangers like that.  The older daughter needs better writing.  Maybe the younger one can't do nuance yet.  

[SadieT]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

 What child says "You are pretty" meeting a random adult?  My friends' daughters never greet strangers like that.  The older daughter needs better writing.  Maybe the younger one can't do nuance yet.  

This seems to be something children do on TV and in movies but not actually in real life. I've seen plenty of kids on screen do the innocent but blunt "you're pretty" thing upon meeting a female character for the first time, typically either the female protagonist or the love interest of the male protagonist, but I've never known an actual child to say such a thing in that situation. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Much to my mother's dismay (and horror), I did the opposite and blurted out something that wasn't a compliment. I was maybe four years old and as we were leaving a store, I saw a random woman walking in. She either had really light hair with dark roots or salt and pepper hair. I asked my mom (very loudly), "Mommy, why is that lady's hair two colors?"

[JudyObscure]

17 hours ago, Neurochick said:

 I don't think less of her for not telling Randall anything, since William was an active addict when she saw him.  Randall needs to understand that sometimes the universe knows what it's doing.  Had he looked for William when William was using drugs, he might have just written the man off forever, maybe William might have tried to scam him for money, maybe Randall might have wasted time and energy trying to get William into recovery.  If any of those things had happened, which can happen with an addict, Randall might have written off his father forever.  Now, even though William is dying, Randall can at least have some kind of relationship with the man.

I agree.  All the comments about Rebecca's "betrayal," made me start thinking that adoption must be a terrifying choice, because, to me, she was in a no win situation.  Randall, the child, cried because he hated being different.  How would he have felt to be the only one with another father?  Would he have felt that he didn't have as much right to Jack as the other kids? If he had been given chances to visit his bio-dad, would he have been conflicted about which father to emulate?  Adopted child syndrome is real, causing some children to never feel fully wanted in the world.  If Randall seemed to be well adjusted in the family, why mess with that?  Later on Rebecca might have felt that William was in danger of relapse and not wanted Randall involved with the often thankless and heartbreaking effort to save a loved one from drugs.  It also could have been, as someone else suggested, a bit of procrastination on Rebecca's part;  Randall is doing his Master's degree,  or he just got married, or he has a new job to deal with, etc.

Randall had a two hour drive home to think of some of these possibilities, Beth had even longer, and Rebecca probably hadn't answered her calls because she wanted to talk to Randall in person.  Confronting Rebecca in that prosecutorial manner in front of everyone and  not giving her a chance to answer,  was like him telling her and Miguel "Thank you for not calling first."  Not how you treat your mother who has cherished and adored you all your life. 

[ShadowFacts]

22 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree.  All the comments about Rebecca's "betrayal," made me start thinking that adoption must be a terrifying choice, because, to me, she was in a no win situation.  Randall, the child, cried because he hated being different.  How would he have felt to be the only one with another father?  Would he have felt that he didn't have as much right to Jack as the other kids? If he had been given chances to visit his bio-dad, would he have been conflicted about which father to emulate?  Adopted child syndrome is real, causing some children to never feel fully wanted in the world.  If Randall seemed to be well adjusted in the family, why mess with that?  Later on Rebecca might have felt that William was in danger of relapse and not wanted Randall involved with the often thankless and heartbreaking effort to save a loved one from drugs.  It also could have been, as someone else suggested, a bit of procrastination on Rebecca's part;  Randall is doing his Master's degree,  or he just got married, or he has a new job to deal with, etc.

Randall had a two hour drive home to think of some of these possibilities, Beth had even longer, and Rebecca probably hadn't answered her calls because she wanted to talk to Randall in person.  Confronting Rebecca in that prosecutorial manner in front of everyone and  not giving her a chance to answer,  was like him telling her and Miguel "Thank you for not calling first."  Not how you treat your mother who has cherished and adored you all your life. 

The problem for me is that nearly 20 years have gone by since Randall might have been old enough to find out some hard truths about his still-alive biological father.  Who Rebecca and maybe Jack apparently knew was not actively using.  Relapses can happen anytime, yes, but she had to have felt some sense of protecting her own relationship, and Jack's if he was still alive, with Randall.  Mixed motives are understandable.

As to Randall's behavior once he knew, two hours isn't nearly long enough to begin to process this life-changing information.  He was spinning out of control there.  Face-to-face, privately with Rebecca would have been better instead of in front of everybody.  He shouldn't have done that, but he has cherished and adored her all his life as well (still calls her Mommy) and she has to seem like a different person to him now.  He was going to be shocked no matter what age he found out, but this many years later when the very likeable William is dying, really blows him out of the water.  And as I said earlier, the way I see Randall, he will get past this because he loves her dearly.  But I don't expect an entirely rational, reasoned reaction immediately, he's already been shown to be kind of intense, even manic. 

[ClareWalks]

I've been thinking about what would have been a "good" way/time for Randall to find out about William. Maybe if Rebecca had asked William to write Randall a letter and given it to him after high school graduation. The letter could have explained why he hadn't been able to meet Randall earlier and given him an opportunity and address to contact William when he was ready. Obviously this is all very hypothetical, but I think that might have gone over a bit better with Randall.

[kili]

Quote

It also could have been, as someone else suggested, a bit of procrastination on Rebecca's part;  Randall is doing his Master's degree,  or he just got married, or he has a new job to deal with, etc.

Why didn't she admit the truth when she found out William was living in the house? Instead, she just threatened an old and dying man. 

When we first saw that, we only knew that she had seen him once a few weeks after Randall's birth while she was still reeling from the death of a child and Randall was a messed-up drug addict.

Now that we know that she kept in contact with him and he had been clean/sober for decades, her behaviour in the scene is less forgivable (IMO).

I can understand why she might have kept William a secret when Randall was a child, but once he was an adult, that is far less understandable. Once Randall found him himself, Rebecca was deluded to think that would stay a secret and should have put on her big girl panties and told him the truth. 

That he had to find out the truth the way he did is just part of the betrayal. That it ruined his Thanksgiving he had worked so hard to make special for William probably just added to the devastation.

[SueB]

Rebecca seemed very intent to make Randall feel a part of the family.  I imagine having a biological parent outside of the core 5 would have been disruptive of that goal.  But once he was 18?   That makes no sense.  

[Tiger]

19 minutes ago, kili said:

Why didn't she admit the truth when she found out William was living in the house? Instead, she just threatened an old and dying man. 

When we first saw that, we only knew that she had seen him once a few weeks after Randall's birth while she was still reeling from the death of a child and Randall was a messed-up drug addict.

Now that we know that she kept in contact with him and he had been clean/sober for decades, her behaviour in the scene is less forgivable (IMO).

I can understand why she might have kept William a secret when Randall was a child, but once he was an adult, that is far less understandable. Once Randall found him himself, Rebecca was deluded to think that would stay a secret and should have put on her big girl panties and told him the truth. 

That he had to find out the truth the way he did is just part of the betrayal. That it ruined his Thanksgiving he had worked so hard to make special for William probably just added to the devastation.

Rebecca did not threaten an old and dying man!

Rebecca and Jack brought an abandoned baby into their home and gave him a great lifem. William was a drug addict who abandon him.  And William has also been living in that house for at least a month also keeping the secret.  It's amazing that William is completely blameless his own actions.

[Lady Calypso]

49 minutes ago, kili said:

Why didn't she admit the truth when she found out William was living in the house? Instead, she just threatened an old and dying man. 

When we first saw that, we only knew that she had seen him once a few weeks after Randall's birth while she was still reeling from the death of a child and Randall was a messed-up drug addict.

Now that we know that she kept in contact with him and he had been clean/sober for decades, her behaviour in the scene is less forgivable (IMO).

I can understand why she might have kept William a secret when Randall was a child, but once he was an adult, that is far less understandable. Once Randall found him himself, Rebecca was deluded to think that would stay a secret and should have put on her big girl panties and told him the truth. 

That he had to find out the truth the way he did is just part of the betrayal. That it ruined his Thanksgiving he had worked so hard to make special for William probably just added to the devastation.

As Tiger has pointed out, William is not blameless in this. Dying or not, he's also responsible for Randall not knowing. Not only that, but he also kept Rebecca's letter in an unlocked drawer, so Randall found it easily. Rebecca's to blame for not telling her son, but William is not innocent in this either. He chose to also keep silent about it. 

It's also possible that William has not been clean and sober since Randall was born. It's actually more likely that one of Rebecca's last visits to him as him relapsed. William may be perceived as a perfect dying old man who can do no wrong, but he has. Rebecca had the responsibility to tell him, but William's also had the same amount of time to see Randall. He may not have done it when he was a minor, but when he was eighteen, he could have made contact. 

It's why I'm annoyed that, after eight episodes now, we haven't seen William do one bad thing besides the flashbacks where he was taking drugs and abandoned his own son. He's the guy that says the right things, bonds with people easily, and gets the sympathy because of his terminal cancer. He needs to be held responsible for his own actions, and it actually makes a better story because he has so little time left. We can see him admitting fault, we can see him atone, instead of the show making it seem like he has no faults. 

[saber5055]

I hated the Kate scene on the plane. She sits down and feels compelled to say she bought two seats to the woman in the window seat? Please. Just sit down and keep your mouth shut. No one is going to sit in the middle, that lady doesn't need to know why. Plus you obviously fit in your seat, I did not see you flip the arm up so you spread out onto two seats. And the flight attendant: "Here's your seat extender." WTH? That guy needs customer service training. The right way to approach that is to ask if Kate was okay and did she need anything he could get for her. Then I LOL'd when the turbulence hit and all the PILLOWS fell out of the overheads. Where were the briefcases, suitcases, overnight bags, boxes, the stuff that's really in overheads. Plus airline pillows are these crummy little tiny square things, not big "My" pillows. And do all overheads really open that easily?

[Clanstarling]

On 11/23/2016 at 6:36 AM, ShadowFacts said:

Now that William talked about his sober-living friends and how they had Thanksgiving and jammed together

Strike the sober part, and that described the first Thanksgiving I ever spent away from my folks (in my late 20's no less). My boyfriend (now mister) is a musician, and his band got together with a whole host of other people. It was the first time I realized Thanksgiving could be fun.

On 11/23/2016 at 6:40 AM, Biggie B said:

Even if she meant the "You're the adopted one" remark as a dry, deadpan joke, it FAILED

Now if she'd said "You're the twin" it might have worked.

23 hours ago, SuzyLee said:

I pounded the coffee table in solidarity with Little Randall when he said that he hated the fact that his grandparents asked for one picture "just with the twins."  What completely transparent assholes.  That would have been the last time my son was expected to attend.  Good for him for being so honest with his mother.

This. So much. As a parent, I wouldn't have stood for it.

[Lady Calypso]

3 minutes ago, saber5055 said:

I hated the Kate scene on the plane. She sits down and feels compelled to say she bought two seats to the woman in the window seat? Please. Just sit down and keep your mouth shut. No one is going to sit in the middle, that lady doesn't need to know why. Plus you obviously fit in your seat, I did not see you flip the arm up so you spread out onto two seats. And the flight attendant: "Here's your seat extender." WTH? That guy needs customer service training. The right way to approach that is to ask if Kate was okay and did she need anything he could get for her. Then I LOL'd when the turbulence hit and all the PILLOWS fell out of the overheads. Where were the briefcases, suitcases, overnight bags, boxes, the stuff that's really in overheads. Plus airline pillows are these crummy little tiny square things, not big "My" pillows. And do all overheads really open that easily?

Ok, so I don't speak from experience here so anyone else can absolutely correct me. I think that Kate has experienced a lot of prejudice like this before. She's probably been stared at one too many times on a plane. Like Kate said, people stare at her, hoping that they don't sit next to her. I think Kate assumed, probably after a lot of experience, that the woman she was sitting near was afraid that there would be another person in the middle and she wanted to not only put the woman's mind at ease, but get the awkwardness out of the way. Kate's probably tired of all the staring and silent judgment from people, so she seems to handle the problem face on. I can't blame her for that. It's a confidence that Kate doesn't often show about herself. As for her fitting in her own seat, it looks like she would have been awfully uncomfortable and I think Kate was thinking of other people's comfort when she booked two seats. 

[mtlchick]

Quote

And wait till he finds out Beth already knew.  Oh, boy.

Quote

In the words of GH's Carly, it wasnt her secret to tell.

And which is why I hope Randall doesn't blow up at her. Beth probably feels horrible as it is, but it's not her issue to explain, it's Rebecca's and to a lesser extent, William.

 

Quote

How many people would insist that their senior parent who is a sick cancer patient hike for 3.4 miles on a holiday?

My dad finished cancer treatments a few months ago and lost a lot of weight and sleeps a lot.  But he will go to Costco and just walk around for HOURS just so he can build his strength and endurance.  So while 3.4 miles is a lot, it was part of a tradition that Randall wanted to include him in and very possible that William could walk it, even in his weakened state.

[kili]

Quote

As Tiger has pointed out, William is not blameless in this. Dying or not, he's also responsible for Randall not knowing. Not only that, but he also kept Rebecca's letter in an unlocked drawer, so Randall found it easily. Rebecca's to blame for not telling her son, but William is not innocent in this either. He chose to also keep silent about it.

William chose to keep silent about so that his son could go to a good home. Rebecca insisted that he agree to it or, she implied, Kyle/Randall would go back. Would he get another good family? Would he end up spending time in foster care? He thought Rebecca and her husband would be a good family so he acquiesced. 

And then he honoured that commitment. The commitment that Rebecca came up to sternly remind him about and warned him that it would destroy Randall if he ever learned the truth. William trusted her judgement and kept his promise - the deal he made so long ago to save his child. He went along with it to try to preserve the relationship his son had with his mother.

If William had told Randall, it would have been better than how things turned out, but Randall would still be furious with Rebecca for all those years he missed. Rebecca is  his mother. Rebecca knew him. Rebecca knew his hopes and dreams. All those years and she never said anything. 

BTW I think that William deserves no blame for keeping the letter and not locking it away. How was he to know that his son would search through his things? He didn't even know Randall was going over to his place. William had so little of his son, I cannot fault him for treasuring the crumbs he did get. Yes, it is his fault that he only got crumbs, but I can totally understand him keeping what he did get. 

[Tiger]

2 minutes ago, kili said:

William chose to keep silent about so that his son could go to a good home. Rebecca insisted that he agree to it or, she implied, Kyle/Randall would go back. Would he get another good family? Would he end up spending time in foster care? He thought Rebecca and her husband would be a good family so he acquiesced. 

And then he honoured that commitment. The commitment that Rebecca came up to sternly remind him about and warned him that it would destroy Randall if he ever learned the truth. William trusted her judgement and kept his promise - the deal he made so long ago to save his child. He went along with it to try to preserve the relationship his son had with his mother.

If William had told Randall, it would have been better than how things turned out, but Randall would still be furious with Rebecca for all those years he missed. Rebecca is  his mother. Rebecca knew him. Rebecca knew his hopes and dreams. All those years and she never said anything. 

BTW I think that William deserves no blame for keeping the letter and not locking it away. How was he to know that his son would search through his things? He didn't even know Randall was going over to his place. William had so little of his son, I cannot fault him for treasuring the crumbs he did get. Yes, it is his fault that he only got crumbs, but I can totally understand him keeping what he did get. 

Rebecca was reasonably and legitimately scared that William would try to take Randall away from her.

She never stated or implied that Randal woul "go back" if William violated their agreement.

Seriously, the saintification of drug addict and simultaneous villification of a good mom is just horrible.

[Biggie B]

20 hours ago, Neurochick said:

Who is to say that Randall and William would have had any type of relationship?  

Who's to say they wouldn't or couldn't have? Randall wasn't give a choice about seeing if a relationship could develop or not; Rebecca made the choice for him. He may hold that against her for a long, long time.

[Clanstarling]

20 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

But I'm now aware that standing up to family is harder than people think and it's not always the easiest decision.

It is, definitely. I was always unable to stand up to my father for myself, but when it came to my children, I surprised myself and laid it out flatly in a "my way or the highway" tone, and he complied. But I do understand how hard that is to do.

20 hours ago, Jx223 said:

But Randall came home with Kate/Kevin and has been apart of the family as long as they have. It should never be a just twins type of thing. Unless she's also going to do a just Randall and Kate, and just the boys pics as well.

My assumption is that it's racial. Then she has pictures she can show to her friends that don't involve explaining why she has a black grandchild.

19 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

so what it comes down to is a whole day cooking and more minute timing than a Nasa launch

I used to hate Thanksgiving and its chaos, until I used actual project management techniques to manage Thanksgiving. Now it's all  works like clockwork and I am not frantic, except at the last minute when I making the gravy and dishing it all up.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

The problem for me is that nearly 20 years have gone by since Randall might have been old enough to find out some hard truths about his still-alive biological father. 

This is my problem too. Not telling him when he was a child was not only understandable, but arguably the right thing. But not telling him when he's an adult, and doubling down when she meets him face to face in Randall's house that first time, not so much. 

1 hour ago, kili said:

BTW I think that William deserves no blame for keeping the letter and not locking it away.

I agree. It was in his home, and he had a reasonable expectation of privacy.

[kili]

Quote

Rebecca was reasonably and legitimately scared that William would try to take Randall away from her.

That's why her original request was reasonable. It doesn't make William a bad person for respecting the promise that he made her.

Quote

She never stated or implied that Randal woul "go back" if William violated their agreement.

My recollection was that she said she couldn't do it if William was involved. To me, that sounded like that if William insisted on being involved with Randall, she wouldn't be able to continue. YMMV

Quote

Seriously, the saintification of drug addict and simultaneous villification of a good mom is just horrible.

Good moms can make really bad decisions. Drug addicts aren't evil. That's the beauty of this show. People have lots of dimensions.

Rebecca made a bad call on keeping this from Randall for the last 18 years especially since she knew that William was clean and sober. She was wrong to try to maintain the secret after Randall found William. She is wrong for dodging Beth's calls for the last three days. She started out making the right call on keeping a drug addict out of her child's life. But, the situation changed and her decisions became bad.

Next show, it will be somebody else's turn to be wrong.

That there is so much to debate shows that the show is doing a great job with showing shades of grey.

[ShadowFacts]

1 hour ago, kili said:

William chose to keep silent about so that his son could go to a good home. Rebecca insisted that he agree to it or, she implied, Kyle/Randall would go back. Would he get another good family? Would he end up spending time in foster care? He thought Rebecca and her husband would be a good family so he acquiesced. 

And then he honoured that commitment. The commitment that Rebecca came up to sternly remind him about and warned him that it would destroy Randall if he ever learned the truth. William trusted her judgement and kept his promise - the deal he made so long ago to save his child. He went along with it to try to preserve the relationship his son had with his mother.

If William had told Randall, it would have been better than how things turned out, but Randall would still be furious with Rebecca for all those years he missed. Rebecca is  his mother. Rebecca knew him. Rebecca knew his hopes and dreams. All those years and she never said anything. 

BTW I think that William deserves no blame for keeping the letter and not locking it away. How was he to know that his son would search through his things? He didn't even know Randall was going over to his place. William had so little of his son, I cannot fault him for treasuring the crumbs he did get. Yes, it is his fault that he only got crumbs, but I can totally understand him keeping what he did get. 

I agree with this.  At the time of her discovery of William, she was definitely in a better "bargaining" position.  We don't even know yet if William terminated his parental rights.  Was this done, or did Rebecca feign ignorance of his paternity?  I'd be interested in knowing that.  She may have kept this to herself which would have been wrong legally. 

William wanted the best for Randall.  He subverted his own needs to be known to, and know, his son.  Not putting him up for sainthood, but that is pretty selfless.  He could have reneged on his agreement, but aside from not wanting to mess up Randall's relationship with Rebecca, doing that sort of thing may have upended his sobriety.  Maybe keeping his word was a really important part of his program, I don't know, just speculating that part.  Whatever his reasons were, he is now free to explain himself to Randall.  It is sad, to me, for both of them that this couldn't happen years ago. 

2 hours ago, saber5055 said:

I hated the Kate scene on the plane. She sits down and feels compelled to say she bought two seats to the woman in the window seat? Please. Just sit down and keep your mouth shut. No one is going to sit in the middle, that lady doesn't need to know why. Plus you obviously fit in your seat, I did not see you flip the arm up so you spread out onto two seats. And the flight attendant: "Here's your seat extender." WTH? That guy needs customer service training. The right way to approach that is to ask if Kate was okay and did she need anything he could get for her. Then I LOL'd when the turbulence hit and all the PILLOWS fell out of the overheads. Where were the briefcases, suitcases, overnight bags, boxes, the stuff that's really in overheads. Plus airline pillows are these crummy little tiny square things, not big "My" pillows. And do all overheads really open that easily?

I saw it just the opposite.  Kate was being preemptive in saying she bought both seats, and the flight attendant was very good at the attentive part in giving her the extender, which she absolutely and obviously needed, without her having to fumble around and ask. 

[mansonlamps]

38 minutes ago, kili said:

That's why her original request was reasonable. It doesn't make William a bad person for respecting the promise that he made her.

My recollection was that she said she couldn't do it if William was involved. To me, that sounded like that if William insisted on being involved with Randall, she wouldn't be able to continue. YMMV

Good moms can make really bad decisions. Drug addicts aren't evil. That's the beauty of this show. People have lots of dimensions.

Rebecca made a bad call on keeping this from Randall for the last 18 years especially since she knew that William was clean and sober. She was wrong to try to maintain the secret after Randall found William. She is wrong for dodging Beth's calls for the last three days. She started out making the right call on keeping a drug addict out of her child's life. But, the situation changed and her decisions became bad.

Next show, it will be somebody else's turn to be wrong.

That there is so much to debate shows that the show is doing a great job with showing shades of grey.

How can you say the show is doing a great job of showing shades of grey right after stating "Rebecca made a bad call, "she was wrong," "her decisions were bad, " etc.?

Sounds like you see it in black and white.

There is no definitive right or wrong here, there is only people making the best decisions they knew how to due to their love of a child.

[J-Man]

I think it would've been nice to offer to let William wear the hat since (1) it's probably his last Thanksgiving and (2) he's the biological grandfather to Randall's kids.

Quote

And the flight attendant: "Here's your seat extender." WTH? That guy needs customer service training. The right way to approach that is to ask if Kate was okay and did she need anything he could get for her.

I assumed that Kate had requested the seat belt extender as she passed by one of the flight attendants while boarding the plane and that he was just fulfilling her request.

I wonder if we'll ever get to meet Rebecca's parents.

[possibilities]

I think that sometimes people make very wrong choices but the show is good about not making them into terrible people. We've seen Rebecca have flaws, but she isn't evil and I don't think we're supposed to hate her guts. To me, the grey is that people aren't all bad or all good, even if at times their behavior clearly is. To me, the decision to keep Randall's biodad a secret when Randall was young is debatable (not something I would do, but I can accept that she thought it was right, mostly because she seems to lack any insight into how to handle difficult situations and explain complex subjects to her kids, and she seems to avoid things in general rather than confronting them most of the time). But to continue to lie to him about it when he asked her later on, and to threaten William when she met him at Randall's home recently, to me is just flat out horrible behavior. I still think she's an interesting character and I like many things about her. But on this issue I think she's just plain wrong.

I have a friend who explained "addiction sickness" to her very young step-son, because the kid's biodad was an addict. It's something some people are capable of doing (this was in the 1990s), even if Rebecca didn't feel like she could. It appears she never sought help to figure out how to handle any of the issues related to being an adoptive parent, and just muddled through, in general, until she met that woman at the pool and was forcefully confronted with her failings. I can't imagine how anyone could adopt a child and not seek out support and clarity from the numerous readily available resources for how to handle these kinds of issues, but there it is. We see that Rebecca tried to be a good mom, loved Randall, but somehow had this enormous blank spot in her approach, and it had consequences.

Good people can be held accountable, disagreed with, and told they've made mistakes... without it being implied that they are monsters who have never done anything right and who are just BAD PEOPLE. I think that's what the show does very well. We're supposed to feel for everyone, regardless of who is right or wrong in a particular instance. Consequences are inevitable, from good behavior and bad. It's just the way things work. So we get to see that, and hopefully still love the people involved, whichever side of a particular issue they fall on.

If Randall didn't get angry, at this point I would find that absurd. If he can forgive Kevin, surely he will eventually forgive Rebecca. He also forgave William. But to get there without any negative feelings in the process is really Gary Stu territory, if you ask me.

Edited November 24, 2016 by possibilities
typo

[Crs97]

One line in an earlier episode that bothered me was William telling Randall that he had never done right by him.  He gave him the opportunity to be raised in a loving family with parents who were willing to sacrifice to get him what he needed.  I had hoped someone would mention that.

How do we know he's been sober all these years?  Frankly, if William was so severely addicted only for the short period of time that included Randall's birth and right afterwards became and stayed a model citizen, I am crying foul.

[SueB]

I believe she owed it to Randall to check on WILLIAM and if had been keeping clean and sober, then telling him.  If he was still an addict, I could see her waiting until 21 (18 is definitely an emotional time).  At 21 he will have been at least part way through college and seen more of the world. If William was still using, Rebecca should tell him then, regardless of his condition.  By 36?  She clearly never intended to tell him.  

[MaiSoCalled]

One thing that I liked was seeing the boys interact in the flashbacks. After seeing the distance between teen Kevin and Randall last week, it was nice to have a flashback where they acted like typical brothers. 

[Court]

I understand why Rebecca didn't tell Randall when he was a child. But I believe Randall did ask about his birth parents. When he was 18, she should have absolutely told him this is your bio father's contact info and name. Then he could have made his own decision on what he wanted to do. Rebecca knew it was wrong and that Randall would be upset if he found out. That's why she made sure to tell William not to forget their deal. That doesn't make her a bad mom but it wad a bad decision. 

William being a drug addict doesn't make him a bad person. Most drug addicts are good people. I do think Randall's bio mom dying and him abandoning Randall probably led to his recovery. I'm sure he relapsed a few times since that is typical. But again that doesn't mean he is some terrible person. 

[kili]

Quote

 

How can you say the show is doing a great job of showing shades of grey right after stating "Rebecca made a bad call, "she was wrong," "her decisions were bad, " etc.?

Sounds like you see it in black and white.

 

There are shades of grey - some are pretty close to black, some are close to white and lots in the middle.

Grey characters are capable of making decisions across the spectrum. I, as a commentator on this show, reserve the right to classify some actions as bad (closer to black) or good (closer to white).  A decision can even start out close to white and due to changing circumstance, turn darker. Or subsequent choices make it darker.

And, even though I have my world view, I accept that others can see the same actions completely different. I think the writers do a great job of painting things grey when I can have a defensible opinion and others can have a different, yet still defensible, opinion.

One of the things I love about this show is it allows us to see different perspectives of the characters and different perspectives of viewers. I learn so much from hearing how people see things differently. The world is complex. People are complex.

And even when characters do bad, it doesn't mean they are bad. It just means they are human. I'm sure we are going to get more of a window into why Rebecca did what she did. Maybe I will even change my mind on how dark her decisions were. This is a journey.

[Cardie]

2 hours ago, ShadowFacts said:

the flight attendant was very good at the attentive part in giving her the extender, which she absolutely and obviously needed, without her having to fumble around and ask

I need seatbelt extenders and ask the flight attendant for one as I step onboard. Often they have one right there and I carry it with me to the seat. Otherwise the attendant will say that he or she will get it to me at my seat, and they come back and hand it to me without fuss. And none has ever offered to help me buckle up! If Kate has flown as a person of size frequently, she will know this drill and not suffer such embarrassment.

[HeyThere83]

3 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

How can you say the show is doing a great job of showing shades of grey right after stating "Rebecca made a bad call, "she was wrong," "her decisions were bad, " etc.?

Sounds like you see it in black and white.

There is no definitive right or wrong here, there is only people making the best decisions they knew how to due to their love of a child.

Even if Rebecca isn't shown to be evil, or just that she's making mistakes, it's still really being implied that SHE is responsible for all of her children's "issues." Not one, or even two, but all of them. She shouldn't have kept the secret, she should have remembered the name of Kevin's play, she shouldn't have given Kate that cantaloupe, she shouldn't have let the light stay on, she shouldn't have acted that way at the pool, etc. So I don't think it has been balanced in that sense at all. Maybe there is some reason for this though that will come to light as the season rolls along. 

 

ETA: She also married Miguel who is being shown unfavorably, and her children don't care for him.

Edited November 24, 2016 by HeyThere83

[photo fox]

I think it's partly due to Rebecca still being alive in the current timeline. It's more dramatic to play these stories with her, because she's there.

For example, if Randall found out that Jack knew...  it's still dramatic, but it's a different kind of drama. If you want to write a big, ugly, current-day dinner confrontation, it has to be with Rebecca. 

[twoods]

Olivia has gotten so unlikable that I want someone to punch her in her smug face everytime she is onscreen. She was the worst at the Thanksgiving dinner- why would Kevin bring someone so terrible to meet his family? 

Poor Randall- I felt for him when he found that letter. Rebecca should have told him when he turned 18 but she was probably scared to lose her son. I feel bad for both parties. I hope Beth doesn't get dragged in this, and William as well since he's probably going to die soon. He gives the best advice as well.

I don't think Jack is shown as a Mary Sue. Rebecca mentioned in an earlier episode how parenting seemed to be easy for Jack- he was the creative one who entertained the kids. I am not looking forward to the flashback of him dying. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by twoods

[pennben]

1 hour ago, photo fox said:

I think it's partly due to Rebecca still being alive in the current timeline. It's more dramatic to play these stories with her, because she's there.

For example, if Randall found out that Jack knew...  it's still dramatic, but it's a different kind of drama. If you want to write a big, ugly, current-day dinner confrontation, it has to be with Rebecca. 

To be honest, in the next episode I'm hoping we find out that she told Jack and maybe they had planned to tell Randall at some point, but Jack died before that point and then for whatever reason Rebecca never said anything.  

I too have been getting concerned that all/most of the problems are her "fault", not Jack. 

Edited November 24, 2016 by pennben

[hippielamb]

Olivia's back! I like her, though not the kissypoo with Kevin. I rather see her bust his chops versus them becoming a couple . I had to laugh at William referring to Kevin as a "nice boy", um, no he's not. I guess in that respect,  he and Olivia are perfect together. 

It's a little bizarre that this family has all the traditions from the food, to the hike, to the movie. It seems very inclusive and makes people not part of the family into outsiders. I wonder about Beth's family and traditions. And also how long has Jack been gone that they still do traditions from when he was alive. I'm indifferent to Miguel but surely they could have included him in their wacky thanksgivings before this. I like Jack and his fun, laid back way of parenting but the Pilgrim Rick thing felt overdone. I do wonder if, as has been said by others, the flashbacks of Jack are more sympathetic because he has passed away. This was the least favourite episode for me. Maybe cos the family traditions were a bit much.

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 0:19 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

This is pure speculation by me, but I think the Rebecca not knowing about Kevin's play stuff was really heavy-handed.  Is Rebecca so biased towards Randall that any kind of thing Kevin does is seen as needy attention-grabbing, and Rebecca kind of resents it and doesn't like it? And therefore, kind of ignores it? I have mother issues myself, so I am just thinking out loud.  The way some parents act, it is almost laughable 1) how different they treat their kids and 2) how insensitive they can be when a kid or even adult kid really wants approval or validation.  I'm not being judgemental because I don't have children myself, just that I've seen it.  Just as a tiny example, the way my father talks to my brother about his work versus mine.  Some parents see some work as more important than others and don't care how it comes off. 

It could be that Rebecca sees acting as frivolous, while Randall has a more respectable professional type career. Kate apparently worked in an office setting before working for Kevin too. I took Rebecca's line about not remembering the name of the play as she wasn't terribly interested, same with his tv show. It doesn't appeal to her, (same as Randall not watching it). But really you'd think she would be more sympathetic, as she was a musician when the kids were young. 

My father was like that too, not in preference for one child's career over another but in the not quite approval of a chosen path. 

 

On Wednesday, November 23, 2016 at 0:25 PM, buckboard said:

I can't wait for the backstory on why the kids seem to hate their father's best friend, what happened to Miguel's wife and kids and how Jack's death figures into this whole story.  Lots left to be told. 

But until I learn what Miguel did that causes so much dislike - from the boys and on this board -  I'm wondering what he did that lets them treat him like an outsider and not like someone who has known them their entire lives.  Sort of like the way Rebecca's parents treated Randall.  He's there, but not a legitimate part of the family. The twins and Randall.  The Pearsons and Miguel.

Maybe he is trying to be respectful. I don't get why so many fans don't like him. Jack is gone but these flashbacks keep him in the show so I guess Miguel is not liked because he is in Jack's place. He hasn't done anything yet that have caused me to not like him. 

[Ms Blue Jay]

We don't like Miguel because he married his dead best friend's wife and he looks like bad Photoshop

Edited November 24, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Enigma X]

Ugh! Since getting a roommate who claims not to watch tv and claims she does not want her daughter to watch tv, I am pretty late in watching shows that I have had to DVR.

Anyway, I finally saw this, and I must say that I am a fan of the traditions. Although, William should not have been expected to partake in the hike. Rebecca's parents would have been cutoff long ago. Their behavior was ridiculous! I felt for Randall and for Rebecca, although I did not agree with how she handled keeping William from Randall. When he turned 18 (or even 16) she should have discussed the situation with him. Olivia is a miserable person. 

Chiming in on Jack being viewed as the fun parent. Again, he is my favorite character but I do think we are seeing both Jack and Rebecca making mistakes. Now the Pierson kids just may be romanticizing Jack because he is dead. And I honestly would not let Miguel, the husband to my mom who happened to also be the best friend of my dead dad, be Pilgrim Rick. It would be different in my eyes for a significant other of one of the kids to take on the role but not your father's "replacement," for lack of a better term.