S01.E08: Pilgrim Rick

[SueB]

43 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

We don't like Miguel because he married his dead best friend's wife and he looks like bad Photoshop

Things Miguel has done that evokes potential feelings:

- Telling Jack to stop drinking cause he's got a great wife and he doesn't want to lose her. For me, him telling Jack to stop drinking was a thing a good friend would do but commenting on his wife, in light of the future....iffy 

- Taking Jack with him as he was promoted  good friend   Providing an alternative that squashed Jack's dream of independence ...not actually Miguel's fault   

- Flirting with the secretary.... not good Miguel but he didn't do anything truly creepy   

- orange makeup, not actually Miguel's fault   

 

 

-

Edited November 25, 2016 by SueB

[kili]

I don't think Jack is shown as the perfect parent. He's definitely got issues and they were front and center at the beginning of the season.

He's a fun guy with lots of charm, so he is easy to like. But,  he definitely has issues. He avoids problems he cannot fix and they fester. He sublimates his career aspirations  and tells nobody. It eats him up inside and percolates out with a drinking problem and general weariness by the time the kids are 15.  Having a rotten day? Let's just ignore it and have fun. That's a good way to turn the day around, but is not a long-term solution. Randall and Kevin have adopted that policy and we see it too is crushing them from inside and boils over into anger (Kevin's on-set rant and Randall's meltdown here. The fact that the two never resolved their differences for years).  It also crushes those around you because you won't let them really discuss their problems either.

Rebecca clearly said she didn't want to have kids and he ignored it and pretended it wasn't true. She gets pregnant. She had a rough delivery, lost a child and has to raise twins, but Jack puts on a happy face and bring home a third unclaimed baby in the nursery? Rebecca was in no head-space to make an informed consent at that point.  If Jack had stopped and discussed things, they might have dealt with the grief and changes. Rebecca might not have felt so trapped in her life. The kids might have learned better coping mechanisms.

And Jack may talk a good game, but does he play it? Sure, he calmed Kevin down about being ignored at the pool. In the very next episode, we watch as Kevin cheerfully builds a complex model and Jack never helps him - even though the only reason Kevin makes the models is the hope of getting a scrap of his time. Jack is always going to help, but he never shown helping Kevin. He's going to do better, but he doesn't. Talk is cheap.

But Jack isn't a villain either. He is trying his best, but he is flawed. 

[ClareWalks]

I do think it's odd that Miguel wanted to be Pilgrim Rick, only because he wasn't there for the original Pilgrim Rick so he has no frame of reference. It's not just about "wearing the hat," Miguel.

[Crs97]

I am curious about the backstory because I would think the kids want their mom to be happy, and what better person than someone else who loved their dad.  I think the boys have been jerks about it; if Kevin had been in our family and spoke to any of us the way he spoke to Miguel, he wouldn't have lasted long.

[ShadowFacts]

There's just a whole lot we don't know yet about Miguel and about a large swath of time from whenever Jack died until now.  Maybe he has done as yet unseen things that really repulse the siblings.  So far, Miguel's actions do not bother me near as much as say, Olivia who is insufferable, or even Toby.  Asking for the hat was a kind of clumsy dramatic device to show us how he isn't accepted, it was a bizarre request, but as far as him marrying his dead best friend's widow, he didn't kidnap and force her, she must have returned the feelings at some point. 

[Court]

If Jack also knew about William, I'd also say it was wrong of him to not tell Randall once he was 18. Of course, Jack may not have had that chance. My mom loves me but that doesn't mean she gets a pass every time she does things that hurt me, make me angry, etc. I may get mad at her but I still love her. That's why I see no issue with Randall being mad at Rebecca.

[Clanstarling]

3 hours ago, hippielamb said:

Maybe cos the family traditions were a bit much.

This so much. It really got on my nerves. One, or even two, of the elements would be sweet. All of them together, too saccharine for my tastes.

I'm neutral on Miguel. I'm not sure I see how marrying your dead friend's wife is, in and of itself, some kind of an offense. And if it is, why doesn't Rebecca get the same kind of hatred for marrying her dead husband's friend? There may be more to it, and maybe I'll swing to the hate Miguel side when the story is more fully developed, but for now, I'm just sad that the actor is so under used, as he's been pretty charismatic in other roles.

I've never had a step parent, and the one time my surviving parent seemed about to connect romantically, I was all for it. But I have a close friend who reacted to the same situation in an opposite fashion. So maybe I just don't get the dynamic.

1 hour ago, Court said:

If Jack also knew about William, I'd also say it was wrong of him to not tell Randall once he was 18.

The only scene they've shown gave me the impression that Rebecca didn't tell Jack (whether she did later is still unknown). My impression is that Jack doesn't live long enough to tell him at 18, even if he did know.

[possibilities]

I do think they showed Jack's problems more in the early episodes, and the effect is it's making the current run of eps look like Jack gets sainthood and Rebecca gets flaws. I hope they dial that back and balance it more. I don't think it's fair at all to dump on the stay at  home parent and give the fun parent a pass, and I agree that Rebecca is getting a bad edit at the moment. But I don't that the show is implying she's a terrible mom, just that she's made mistakes, mainly with the business about keeping Randall from knowing about his biodad when he asked for that over and over again.

2 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I'm neutral on Miguel. I'm not sure I see how marrying your dead friend's wife is, in and of itself, some kind of an offense. And if it is, why doesn't Rebecca get the same kind of hatred for marrying her dead husband's friend? There may be more to it, and maybe I'll swing to the hate Miguel side when the story is more fully developed, but for now, I'm just sad that the actor is so under used, as he's been pretty charismatic in other roles.

This is how I feel about it, too. I liked my step-mom, so maybe that helps. But generally I think it's ridiculously immature to hate a parent's new spouse just for being the new spouse. It's right up there with hating your younger siblings because it means you don't get all the attention anymore. "You replaced my dad" is really stupid shit for adults to pull. So to my  way of thinking, either the kids are assholes, or we haven't seen Miguel's crimes yet. But if Miguel is really terrible, that would add to the idea that the show hates Rebecca, and I will be pissed off if that's how it plays out.

I want them to spread the flaws around, so Jack needs to get back down off the pedestal, and Rebecca needs some love, and I need to see why Miguel is so reviled by at minimum the brothers, if not also Kate (we don't know what Kate thinks about him, yet).

[dargosmydaddy]

Just caught up on this episode now. A few observations...

-While Kevin was obnoxious to Miguel, the fact that he did hand the hat over to Miguel (and seemed to feel honestly guilty about denying it to him earlier, which, IMO, he should not have) makes him somewhat less awful.

-I think Rebecca forgetting the name of Kevin's play was meant to be juxtaposed with the earlier scene with Randall where she knew the name of/ details about his assistant, and was therefore meant to show her favoritism.

-Rebecca's dish of cranberry sauce in the beginning looked way too tiny. They are going to a dinner where there will be at least nine people, and maybe more if the sister has kids or there's other extended family. That was a really tiny bowl. And I was expecting her to be coated with the new sauce after the crash, but apparently it magically disappeared instead.

-Is it normal for a furnace to have an easily accessible flame??

[Dowel Jones]

All of those family traditions started on that one unfortunate night, added onto the fact that Rebecca broke with her parents over the many insults she had to deal with over the first 8 or so years.  It's not like the Christmas dinner in A Christmas Story, which would have been a one-off deal.  That's why I think they're so important to the Big Three.  Although, I would have liked to have been a fly on the wall (or tree) when they were deciding exactly where to put a 3.4 mile hike.

Older furnaces, yes.  You reached in with a match with the setting on Pilot, and lit the fire.  After warming up, you turned it to On, and, whoosh.

[memememe76]

A few years back, I drove from DC to Philadelphia. The first and last time so far. I vaguely recall noticing signs on the highway with numbers, like 100, 100.1, 100.2, etc. I live on the west coastlike where signage wish every mile. So, the 3.4 miles sign kinda jogged that memory. Am I mistaken about this?

[bros402]

16 hours ago, mtlchick said:

My dad finished cancer treatments a few months ago and lost a lot of weight and sleeps a lot.  But he will go to Costco and just walk around for HOURS just so he can build his strength and endurance.  So while 3.4 miles is a lot, it was part of a tradition that Randall wanted to include him in and very possible that William could walk it, even in his weakened state.

I have cancer. I couldn't even walk 3.4 miles before chemo. Let alone now - and William is currently doing chemo, so yeah

[chocolatine]

44 minutes ago, bros402 said:

I have cancer. I couldn't even walk 3.4 miles before chemo. Let alone now - and William is currently doing chemo, so yeah

That's terrible; wishing you a speedy recovery!

William takes daily walks in the neighborhood (remember when the neighbors called security on him?), and it seems to be a long-held habit of his, so maybe 3.4 miles are not that terrible if he takes breaks, and maybe the fresh air makes him feel better? Randall offered to take him back to the house, and William said no.

[Jx223]

13 hours ago, Crs97 said:

I am curious about the backstory because I would think the kids want their mom to be happy, and what better person than someone else who loved their dad.  I think the boys have been jerks about it; if Kevin had been in our family and spoke to any of us the way he spoke to Miguel, he wouldn't have lasted long.

I don't think that Randall has been a jerk to Miguel. He has been decent towards Miguel and defended him against Kevin. He did say the line about coming to the house unexpectedly but he also said the same thing to Kevin. Maybe he doesn't like people showing up in his home unexpectedly.

Or maybe his reaction was more about Miguel (and later Kevin) showing up unannounced when he was trying to talk to William. Both of them showed after he brought William to his home. He may have wanted to have some more time to talk with William alone and then plan on how he was going to tell the rest of his family. But he had to tell some of them on the spot when they showed up unexpectedly which made the situation more awkward. Kevin OTOH was flat out jerky to Miguel but at least he eased up at the end.

Also, I hope William defends Rebecca a bit when confronted with William about the truth. He stated he didn't want Randall to know because he didn't to damage his relationship with Randall. I want him to tell Randall that and even discuss what he thinks Rebecca's motivations were for keeping the secret. I don't want him to have a "I'm just glad you are not really mad at me response" when Randall talks with him about the secret and voices his displeasure about Rebecca.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jx223

[TVForever]

On November 23, 2016 at 0:29 AM, Crs97 said:

I don't get the feeling there is a room for one of his traditions.  When he asked Kevin he mentioned all the traditions and wanting to be involved this one time in one of them.  I don't have a problem with him and didn't view him as whining or pouting.  Maybe it is because my love for Jack lessens each time they make him the most perfect dad who ever lived while Rebecca is just a screw-up who is to blame for any issue in her kids' life.  What is the male version of a Mary Sue?

My goodness, thanks for putting it out there. I was starting to feel like I was all alone. Unless Miguel actually killed Jack, for goodness sake, these GROWN children need to cut the man some slack and act like adults. Miguel just seems to be trying to find his way (still!) with his wife's family. Awkward, yes, but he doesn't seem to be coming from a bad place. I suppose the backstory will explain some things.

i fully agree with you about Jack. Jack seems like the "fun dad" who gets to indulge everyone while Rebecca had to play "bad cop" all the time. And now he gets to be the sainted dead dad who can NEVER be touched. Meanwhile, Rebecca is still here, and just a plain old human.

[Ms Blue Jay]

If your parent marries someone, do you really owe that person anything?  To be honest I don't get it.  I get that the Big 3 are all adults but I don't begrudge them any of their feelings.  It's personal to them.  We don't know exactly how old the Big 3 were when their mother married Miguel, but if Miguel didn't actually parent them until 18 then I guess they can feel however they please.  They are not outright rude.  They're just whatever.  It's absolutely not rude how Kevin treated Miguel.  He calmly explained how their practically lifelong tradition works.  And Randall opened his house to Miguel.  That's fine to me.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Ms Blue Jay

[Court]

Exactly. I bet Miguel knows how the tradition started and why they do it. That makes it even worse that he asked. 

[Jx223]

8 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

If your parent marries someone, do you really owe that person anything?  To be honest I don't get it.  I get that the Big 3 are all adults but I don't begrudge them any of their feelings.  It's personal to them.  We don't know exactly how old the Big 3 were when their mother married Miguel, but if Miguel didn't actually parent them until 18 then I guess they can feel however they please.  They are not outright rude.  They're just whatever.  It's absolutely not rude how Kevin treated Miguel.  He calmly explained how their practically lifelong tradition works.

I thought he was rude with the way he talked to Miguel when Miguel asked him about the play. His tone was rude and Rebecca even had to say "Kevin" in an attempt to get him to stop acting that way. He also had a disrespectful tone when he mentioned Miguel before Miguel/Rebecca showed up. Which promoted Randall to deliver the "he's our step-father not Isis" line.  I will give him credit though for letting Miguel be Pilgrim Rick. That was a nice gesture on his end.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jx223

[Crs97]

Yes, a step parent is owed common decency if for no other reason than out of respect for the parent who married him/her.  Randall is the better of the two, but still passive aggressive.  Kevin whines that no one cares about his acting, but he shuts down and ridicules the one guy who expressed an interest.  His tone of voice was so awful with his "that's NEVER gonna happen" when Miguel asked about the hat.  I was glad to see him finally realize he had been a jerk.  The backstory better be good because right now Miguel is the sainted one for putting up with the kids' continued rudeness out of love for his wife.

BTW, to the earlier poster who said Rebecca and Beth weren't involved in the traditions, Rebecca apparently gets to quote Jack's thankfulness speech.  My concern was what tradition Kate gets to lead; I didn't hear anyone worry that someone would have to take her spot for one of them.  Funny that.

[GodsBeloved]

On 11/23/2016 at 11:30 AM, Ms Blue Jay said:

 

[Clanstarling]

1 hour ago, Jx223 said:

Maybe he doesn't like people showing up in his home unexpectedly.

Or maybe his reaction was more about Miguel (and later Kevin) showing up unannounced when he was trying to talk to William. Both of them showed after he brought William to his home. He may have wanted to have some more time to talk with William alone and then plan on how he was going to tell the rest of his family. But he had to tell some of them on the spot when they showed up unexpectedly which made the situation more awkward. Kevin OTOH was flat out jerky to Miguel but at least he eased up at the end.

This was exactly my take on it at the time.

20 minutes ago, Ms Blue Jay said:

If your parent marries someone, do you really owe that person anything?

If that's the only "crime", then yes, I think you do. Your parent (presumably one you love) loves this person enough to marry them and by marrying them has made them part of the family. They deserve at least respect and an initial welcome, the same as you would for a sibling's spouse, or adopted children. Obviously, there can be mitigating circumstances and reasons why you wouldn't - but in the context of this show so far, we haven't seen any.

[saber5055]

Cyberhugs to bros402. And now that Randall's Thanksgiving tradition has been ruined for all eternity, how about inviting all of William's musician friends to jam at your house every Turkey Day from now on, Randall. And I could care less about Miguel, married to Rebecca or not. What's the big deal? Unless he killed Jack, then I can see some hostility toward him.

[SueB]

48 minutes ago, TVForever said:

My goodness, thanks for putting it out there. I was starting to feel like I was all alone. Unless Miguel actually killed Jack, for goodness sake, these GROWN children need to cut the man some slack and act like adults. Miguel just seems to be trying to find his way (still!) with his wife's family. Awkward, yes, but he doesn't seem to be coming from a bad place. I suppose the backstory will explain some things.

i fully agree with you about Jack. Jack seems like the "fun dad" who gets to indulge everyone while Rebecca had to play "bad cop" all the time. And now he gets to be the sainted dead dad who can NEVER be touched. Meanwhile, Rebecca is still here, and just a plain old human.

The kids may have felt Miguel took advantage of Rebecca's situation when Jack died.  

Im sure we'll find out the actual details. However, we're building to a scenario where Jack, the sole breadwinner dies and Rebecca can't possibly keep up with bills on a singing career.  If Jack didn't have proper life insurance, Miguel may have 'slid into place' a little too conveniently for the kids.   They may have felt their Mom remarried quickly because Miguel was nice and she was in a financial bind.  And they would blame Miguel, rather than dead Dad, because it's easier.  In reality, IF Rebecca was left in a bad position financially then it's either Jack or Jack AND Rebecca's fault for not getting any life insurance to cover.  Even if Randall is getting scholarships, they needed to prioritize protecting the family.  But it's a COMMON mistake (no, I don't sell life insurance!). And just this last episode demonstrated why Jack's family isn't an option for help and Rebecca would rather handle the problem then rely on racist Grandma and Grandpa. 

But I could be completely off about this.  It's just 'married his best friends wife' is a pointed comment and being opportunistic may be what the kids blame Miguel for. 

[Jx223]

1 hour ago, Court said:

Exactly. I bet Miguel knows how the tradition started and why they do it. That makes it even worse that he asked. 

I think that that he also knows who that tradition is mainly for and so does Kevin. That tradition was started to entertain kids for a Thanksgiving that started out crummy. If Jack and Rebecca had ended up at that motel but had been childless, I don't believe that would have been a tradition. Jack started it to keep them entertained and lift their spirits and in the present day it's being used to entertain Tess/Annie.

I think that Kevin realized that this tradition is largely about continuing to entertain the younger generation in the family and I think that is a big reason why he let Miguel be Pilgrim Rick. I think that he was putting the girls first before himself by letting Miguel be apart of it as well. Plus, he ended up making Rebecca happy. She seemed touched by his decision.

 

27 minutes ago, SueB said:

The kids may have felt Miguel took advantage of Rebecca's situation when Jack died.  

Im sure we'll find out the actual details. However, we're building to a scenario where Jack, the sole breadwinner dies and Rebecca can't possibly keep up with bills on a singing career.  If Jack didn't have proper life insurance, Miguel may have 'slid into place' a little too conveniently for the kids.   They may have felt their Mom remarried quickly because Miguel was nice and she was in a financial bind.  And they would blame Miguel, rather than dead Dad, because it's easier.  In reality, IF Rebecca was left in a bad position financially then it's either Jack or Jack AND Rebecca's fault for not getting any life insurance to cover.  Even if Randall is getting scholarships, they needed to prioritize protecting the family.  But it's a COMMON mistake (no, I don't sell life insurance!). And just this last episode demonstrated why Jack's family isn't an option for help and Rebecca would rather handle the problem then rely on racist Grandma and Grandpa. 

But I could be completely off about this.  It's just 'married his best friends wife' is a pointed comment and being opportunistic may be what the kids blame Miguel for. 

I had wondered if Miguel stepped in and helped the family financially after Jack died as well. I could see him doing that. I do think though that him and Rebecca got married after the kids became grown. I think the kids would be closer to him in present day, if they had married when they were teens. (Even if they would have had issues with the marriage at first). I hope that Jack had protection for his family, but I could see a situation where he didn't. And if that happens it is definitely going to be a make a terrible situation even more devastating. Especially considering that Rebecca has been a stay at home mom since the kids were born and wasn't really earning any money.

[llewis823]

On 11/23/2016 at 10:43 AM, SueB said:

Kudos to those who mentioned Rebecca acting subdued these days.  I think whatever happened with Jack's death and marriage to Miguel somehow broke her.  She's never recovered that spark she had.  There's so much more to see here.

I have felt this, but never even acknowledged it to myself in thinking about the show, but you are so right! That is forward thinking on the writers' parts - having her act differently without it being glaringly obvious. It's setting us up for WHY she is more subdued like that now. Good observation!

[jeansheridan]

Quote

 And if it is, why doesn't Rebecca get the same kind of hatred for marrying her dead husband's friend? 

Kate doesn't seem enchanted by her mother.  I can't point to a specific example, but when she was telling Toby all about her football traditions, it was all about dad. And I think she does say she doesn't talk to her mother much.  

Excellent points about the life insurance.  My mother was a young widow and fortunately reps in my father's union made sure she got everything she qualified for.  It was still hard, but not impossible.  And I can see Rebecca just spinning.  If Jack dies before the kids go to college or even the first year or so of college, then there are those bills (even in the 1990s when college tuition wasn't quite so horrifying).  It might explain too why Kate doesn't seem to have a college degree (Does she mention college at all?  Maybe she followed Kevin out to California and he came on a football scholarship?)

I really don't see Miguel as evil thus far.  Maybe there was an affair before hand, but must admit in terms of looks and style, it's hard to imagine.  He makes sense as an older husband.  They look cute together now.  Hard to see them together in the 1990s.  

Also, I don't find older Rebecca "broken" at all.  I think Mandy Moore is playing her very lady-like and Diane Keatonish (I think she has Diane Keaton's hair).  I think Moore is going an okay job, but being able to play different ages and make them distinct is a challenge for any actor.  Robert DeNiro in Raging Bull hard.  It's not that easy.  And given the fast schedules of filming for television she needs to figure out shortcuts and I think one of her shortcuts is to be stately/elegant/calm in body energy.  It's not a bad choice and I like it.  Hardly perfect.  She looks about mid-fifty, not late sixties, but too late to fix the make-up.  

Edited November 25, 2016 by jeansheridan

[Crs97]

Quote

Kate doesn't seem enchanted by her mother.  I can't point to a specific example, but when she was telling Toby all about her football traditions, it was all about dad. And I think she does say she doesn't talk to her mother much

She explained to her assistant's daughter that they don't talk much because she blamed her mom for being thin and beautiful.  I will be curious to see if there is more to it than that.

[Calamity Jane]

On 11/23/2016 at 7:32 AM, SuzyLee said:

* Go sit your keister down somewhere, Toby.  I'm thrilled that Kate dis-invited him to Thanksgiving.  I hope that their "break" sticks.  I've disliked Toby's attention-seeking ass from day one.  I've watched the aftermath of gastric bypass surgery unfold four times in real life with friends and to say that it's not pretty is a major understatement. To be honest, I would qualify for the surgery, myself, and that's the main reason I haven't taken the plunge. It affects every single area of your life and if you don't follow the post-surgical rules regarding portion sizes to the letter, you'll pay for it in spades. The idea of Kate remaining with non-dieting Toby after surgery is laughable. He would make it all about himself and continue to eat anything he wanted in her presence "because Kate said it was okay." No, you horse's ass, she's just trying to be nice. You should NOT eat cheesecake and chocolate in front of her no matter what she says to reassure you that it's okay. Ugh, I hate Toby.

 

Several members of my family have had either gastric bypass or lapland surgery, as well as a number of colleagues from work.  The time right after the surgery is not fun, but after a few months, things calm down, and a few years out, most have adjusted quite well.  For some, it was a great and ongoing success, for some, it has been fairly successful, and for one or two it just did not last at all.  For two of them, it instantly cured their pre-diabetes.  I think Kate would benefit quite a bit because she's not just a bit overweight, she's heavy enough that it's going to impact her health and well-being in many ways.  In her circumstance, I think the surgery is well worth the risk.  Yes, it takes some fortitude, but she's already demonstrating that quality, just not getting a lot of payoff for it.  

But she should still dump Toby for being a jerk.  

[chocolatine]

4 hours ago, Jx223 said:

I think that that he also knows who that tradition is mainly for and so does Kevin. That tradition was started to entertain kids for a Thanksgiving that started out crummy. If Jack and Rebecca had ended up at that motel but had been childless, I don't believe that would have been a tradition. Jack started it to keep them entertained and lift their spirits and in the present day it's being used to entertain Tess/Annie.

I disagree. This is a tradition the Big Three have been following since they were eight years old, and it means a lot more to them than it does to Tess or Annie. There are a myriad other ways Miguel could have created a special tradition with Tess and Annie if that's so important to him, but he needs to accept that he's not part of the Pilgrim Rick tradition and stop trying to butt in on it.

[saber5055]

We're doing a lot of making up own our story lines and show details here, and I hope the show proves us wrong on most counts. Me, I only know what this show has allowed me to see, I can't put my own "this happened offscreen" into the scenario. Mostly, I hate that Kate's weight has been her whole reason for being on this show. I hate she was fat shamed on the airplane, she was on the phone when she boarded, we saw her the entire time, and she DID NOT ask the snotty flight attendant for a belt extender. And that empty seat next to her was for Jerkface Toby who she dis-invited, thank god. She didn't buy two seats for her own fat ass, so snarky seat mate, look away. I want Kate to have some normal story now that the self-centered "It's all about me" Toby is done. Please!

[Jx223]

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

I disagree. This is a tradition the Big Three have been following since they were eight years old, and it means a lot more to them than it does to Tess or Annie. There are a myriad other ways Miguel could have created a special tradition with Tess and Annie if that's so important to him, but he needs to accept that he's not part of the Pilgrim Rick tradition and stop trying to butt in on it.

It means a lot to them but it's something that is ultimately done to entertain children. Would they do it if they were all grown and childless? And did they do it after they became grown but prior to Tess/Annie being born? Probably not. I don't really think that they would be acting out the tradition if none of them had kids. I think that the most they would do/ probably do is recall the tradition fondly.  

When Miguel approached Kevin and asked to do it he said he wanted to do it for Tess/Annie. And I think that factored into Kevin's decision to let him do it. I think that he cares about the tradition but he realized he is an adult and now it is largely about entertaining his nieces. I think he came to this realization when he was talking to them and that factored into him letting Miguel do it. I thought it was a mature, nice gesture on his end.

Edited November 25, 2016 by Jx223

[PepperMonkey]

Sterling K. Brown for president, seriously. First, the turn in the O.J. thing and now this. I remembered him from Supernatural but I'm not that familiar with any other work, but holy cow, this guy is Denzel Washington in his prime levels of actor. Even better from where I'm standing.

Having said that, I didn't like that he went off on his mom in front of everyone, but I understand it. Thanksgiving is supposed to be uncomfortable and for my family, at least, it always is. There's always someone who's late, or doesn't show, or doesn't show with what they said they would bring, leaving a gap in food groups, or shows up with someone no one likes, or drinks too much, ad infinitum.

For me, it's going to be tough at Emmy time because I want to see SKB, RCJ, and Milo all 3 nominated. I never liked Milo before but I love him in this role, and I can clearly see his imperfections. I'm sure the kids idolize him, but we, as adults, can see the things about him that aren't that great and recognize his humanity. My mom passed away 12 years ago, and she and I had our fair share of fights, disagreements, arguments, and times when we didn't even speak to each other, but now she's gone, I choose to only remember the great stuff, and there was a ton of it.

I missed Kate in the episode and wish she would eventually end up back with the family on the east coast. Also, I don't think Toby is bad for her, but I don't think he's her Prince Charming, either, so I'm fine either way.

Miguel: I think it's okay if the adult kids have conflicting feelings about him. They're adults and they had a dad whom they love and look back upon most fondly through that haze of loss. It's powerful. I like the way Randall's kids (who, by the way, I adore, and I never like kids on these damn shows) care for Miguel and call him Grandpa. I don't like the way Miguel thought he should be able to do Pilgrim Rick, but then I realized he wanted to do it for the girls.

This show is going to make me so sad when William dies. I almost tear up just thinking about it now.

Edited November 26, 2016 by PepperMonkey

[Eeksquire]

Quote

I like Jack and his fun, laid back way of parenting but the Pilgrim Rick thing felt overdone. ... Maybe cos the family traditions were a bit much.

I understand the traditions for narrative purposes, but... I've had some disastrous holidays - I'm guessing everyone who's been around a few decades has.  Even when things turn out in a way that you can remember them fondly or laugh about them after the fact, I'm having a hard time imagining a scenario where, had my family's Thanksgiving turned out in such a dramatic departure, that my parents (who are approximately the same ages as Jack and Rebecca were in the 80's, down to the obsession with Graceland!) would be like, "Hey, this Thanksgiving, we aren't going to your terrible parents because you told them off last year! And you know what would be fun? Let's eat HOT DOGS covered in melted Kraft singles and rolled in saltines like we did last year! And watch that same terrible movie again! And I'll wear that terrible hat and pretend to be Pilgrim Rick!"

I mean, were it my family, I'll grant you that every time hot dogs were consumed, there would be a snickering remark about where the appropriate "Pearson family condiments" were or every time Police Academy III came on TV, we'd remark upon how they shouldn't be airing it because that was a "Thanksgiving movie", or - running across the hat in the attic, we'd giggle about it, but there is NO WAY that the first year after that disaster would we all be hauling out all the accoutrements so we could recreate it.  To be so ingrained almost thirty years later doesn't track, unless Randall resurrected them as an adult or maybe after Jack's death.  

[Arcadiasw]

46 minutes ago, Eeksquire said:

I mean, were it my family, I'll grant you that every time hot dogs were consumed, there would be a snickering remark about where the appropriate "Pearson family condiments" were or every time Police Academy III came on TV, we'd remark upon how they shouldn't be airing it because that was a "Thanksgiving movie", or - running across the hat in the attic, we'd giggle about it, but there is NO WAY that the first year after that disaster would we all be hauling out all the accoutrements so we could recreate it.  To be so ingrained almost thirty years later doesn't track, unless Randall resurrected them as an adult or maybe after Jack's death.  

I agree. Couldn’t the traditions have been modified? Keep the walk to an hour regardless if everyone reaches the 3.4 miles or not. Keep the movie viewing tradition, but don’t let it be the same movie every year. Ditch the hot dogs and cheese. Is anyone really eating that?

One thing that stood out with Thanksgiving was the family honoring Randall’s family traditions. What about Beth’s? She doesn’t have any tradition she wants to add or is Thanksgiving Randall’s holiday and she has Christmas?

[Court]

Your view of traditions is going to depend likely on what your family does. We have traditions that we do with our family that date back to when I was a child.We're a tradition heavy family. My husband is happy to continue them. His family rarely did anything for any holidays.

I don't see any reason why the traditions had to be modified. That was their first Thanksgiving as a family and that's what they created. I'm guessing the next year, that's what the kids wanted to do and it stuck. With Jack's passing, that likely helped them stick this long as well 

Edited November 26, 2016 by Court

[PepperMonkey]

That wasn't their first Thanksgiving as a family, but, Court, I, too, understand why the traditions were important to Randall. Especially after hearing what Becca's parents said about the photos (can we get a picture of just the twins?). It was the first Thanksgiving Randall was not ostracized because they didn't have to spend it with his mom's parents.

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, Jx223 said:

It means a lot to them but it's something that is ultimately done to entertain children. Would they do it if they were all grown and childless? And did they do it after they became grown but prior to Tess/Annie being born? Probably not. I don't really think that they would be acting out the tradition if none of them had kids. I think that the most they would do/ probably do is recall the tradition fondly.

The point is not to entertain the children - most children don't care much for Velveeta and saltine crusted hot dogs and Police Academy III - but to keep Jack's memory alive. Miguel gets to be part of the family in the present day, but he doesn't get to insinuate himself into their history. Simple as that.

[Jx223]

48 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

The point is not to entertain the children - most children don't care much for Velveeta and saltine crusted hot dogs and Police Academy III - but to keep Jack's memory alive. Miguel gets to be part of the family in the present day, but he doesn't get to insinuate himself into their history. Simple as that.

I think that If Kevin had felt that the tradition was only about honoring Jack’s memory, then he wouldn’t have let Miguel be Pilgrim Rick. He wasn’t obligated to give Miguel the hat, but he did it largely for his nieces. I think that a big reason he let Miguel be Pilgrim Rick because he believes that that tradition was created to mainly entertain kids in the family. I think that the hot dogs/movie traditions were created for the same reason (and also to try and make that Thanksgiving work with the little that they had). Tess/Annie didn’t seem to have a problem with either of those tradition either and seemed fine with watching the movie with their family. It wouldn’t surprise me if they liked both traditions.

I do believe that the Big Three feel like they are honoring Jack with the traditions, but I also feel like they do the traditions because they like to participate in them/want to share them with their children. And on this particular Thanksgiving Kevin let Miguel share it with his grandchildren.

Even though some people don't like it Miguel is apart of that family and is important to Tess/Annie. Kevin realized this and let him be Pilgrim Rick. If he felt strongly enough about not wanting Miguel to be Pilgrim Rick for whatever reasons, Miguel wouldn’t have been Pilgrim Rick. No one was pressuring Kevin to make that decision, he ultimately felt it was the right thing for him to do.

Edited November 26, 2016 by Jx223

[Court]

2 hours ago, PepperMonkey said:

That wasn't their first Thanksgiving as a family, but, Court, I, too, understand why the traditions were important to Randall. Especially after hearing what Becca's parents said about the photos (can we get a picture of just the twins?). It was the first Thanksgiving Randall was not ostracized because they didn't have to spend it with his mom's parents.

I should have clarified. The first Thanksgiving without doing what Rebecca's parents wanted. Or Jack's parents before they died. Just their little family. And yes, Rebecca's parents are awful and I would have stopped going there much sooner!

Miguel was pressuring Kevin. I don't believe Kevin would have let Miguel wear it if he hadn't been sitting there pouting and he hadn't laid a guilt trip about the girls. Miguel could have smiled or pretended to enjoy it.

[hippielamb]

On Thursday, November 24, 2016 at 10:10 PM, Clanstarling said:

This so much. It really got on my nerves. One, or even two, of the elements would be sweet. All of them together, too saccharine for my tastes.

I'm neutral on Miguel. I'm not sure I see how marrying your dead friend's wife is, in and of itself, some kind of an offense. And if it is, why doesn't Rebecca get the same kind of hatred for marrying her dead husband's friend? There may be more to it, and maybe I'll swing to the hate Miguel side when the story is more fully developed, but for now, I'm just sad that the actor is so under used, as he's been pretty charismatic in other roles.

I've never had a step parent, and the one time my surviving parent seemed about to connect romantically, I was all for it. But I have a close friend who reacted to the same situation in an opposite fashion. So maybe I just don't get the dynamic.

I'm glad it's not just me. The whole thing felt way too precious. Eating the same food, going on a 3 mile hike (seriously?), watching the same movie, listening to the same album. And let's not forget about the hat. Fast forward to when the kids are teenagers and it's not quite so cute. 

I have no experience with step parents either. Lots of experience with boyfriend or girlfriend of the person you share kids with. Sometimes kids don't like that person because they see them as an interloper or someone preventing mum and dad from being together. But the Big 3's father has passed away. You would think they would be respectful for the benefit of their mother. That seems to be Randall's attitude. Kevin has some issues about it though.

[methodwriter85]

On 11/22/2016 at 10:11 PM, msani19 said:

When did Milo (aka Jess from my Gilmore Girls days) get to be so freaking hot? I was astounded every time he was on screen! Whoa!

I will/may have actual thoughts on this episode which was quite powerful, once my primal brain has settled down #shallow

I have this personal theory that men look their best in their mid-30's to mid-40's, provided they kept in decent shape. You've kind of grown into your features by that time, and you start getting wrinkles and little hints of grey that really add character to a person's face. Guys in their 20's are still basically kids when it comes to their looks.

I've developed  a thing recently for preppy suburban dads in their late 30's. Weird, but whatever.

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I sure thought so. But given his exchange with the secretary in the last episode, maybe he had an ugly divorce and his kids chose sides.

I could see the show being willing to kill off Miguel's kids. It's weird that the Big Three don't seem to have grown up with Miguel's kids at all. Maybe they died, or maybe there was a divorce and the mom basically shut them out of his life.

[bros402]

22 hours ago, chocolatine said:

That's terrible; wishing you a speedy recovery!

William takes daily walks in the neighborhood (remember when the neighbors called security on him?), and it seems to be a long-held habit of his, so maybe 3.4 miles are not that terrible if he takes breaks, and maybe the fresh air makes him feel better? Randall offered to take him back to the house, and William said no.

True. Asking him is the important part.

16 hours ago, saber5055 said:

Cyberhugs to bros402. And now that Randall's Thanksgiving tradition has been ruined for all eternity, how about inviting all of William's musician friends to jam at your house every Turkey Day from now on, Randall. And I could care less about Miguel, married to Rebecca or not. What's the big deal? Unless he killed Jack, then I can see some hostility toward him.

I'm better tonight - medical marijuana does wonders for nausea - not quite as giggly as it was portrayed in the previous episode - but the strain I have helps (Also, medical marijuana is legal in NJ, William would be approved for it pretty quickly, he'd just have to have 4 visits with a doctor who is a licensed prescriber of MMJ - terminal illness = marijuana).

[methodwriter85]

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This show is my new Brothers and Sisters.

I don't know, that show would have had some insane twist where it turned out that Kevin had actually survived his birth and was kidnapped into a baby smuggling ring by the seemingly kind doctor.

This episode really made me miss the Holidays you have when you're a kid. Even though they often aren't perfect, there's a magic to them that you just don't get when you're a grown-up.

Edited November 26, 2016 by methodwriter85

[kat165]

But didn't they bake the pot in brownies rather than smoke it? Cooked pot will give you an intense trippy high closer to acid/mesc than the just smoking it mellow high. And it will last longer.

[SanDiegoInExile]

17 hours ago, SueB said:

The kids may have felt Miguel took advantage of Rebecca's situation when Jack died.  

Im sure we'll find out the actual details. However, we're building to a scenario where Jack, the sole breadwinner dies and Rebecca can't possibly keep up with bills on a singing career.  If Jack didn't have proper life insurance, Miguel may have 'slid into place' a little too conveniently for the kids.

I suspect this is close to what happened, especially from the kid's perspective.  I have every confidence that the writers/producers have developed a the storyline/details which are going to flip nearly everyone's opinions about Miguel and Jack. It's actually going to be very easy to do.

I have remained spoiler-free, so don't plan on diving into any spoiler threads.  I've just watched 40 years of daytime and nighttime soaps to know that the viewers are being set up (love Jack, hate Miguel).  I do know that the season is only 18 episodes, so the sad part is that we are almost halfway through!

Edited November 26, 2016 by SanDiegoInExile

[Tiger]

5 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I don't know, that show would have had some insane twist where it turned out that Kevin had actually survived his birth and was kidnapped into a baby smuggling ring by the seemingly kind doctor.

B&S was grounded in season 1 too.  

I've joked that come season 4, Beth & Kevin will have an affair and it will inexplicably be revealed in a letter Jack wrote to be delivered to Kate on her 40th birthday.  

The third triplet showing up alive at some point with some sinister agenda wouldnt surprise me at all. NBC, like ABC, is notorious for interfering with shows with successful initial seasons.  

[NutMeg]

21 hours ago, Jx223 said:

I think that Kevin realized that this tradition is largely about continuing to entertain the younger generation in the family and I think that is a big reason why he let Miguel be Pilgrim Rick. I think that he was putting the girls first before himself by letting Miguel be apart of it as well. Plus, he ended up making Rebecca happy. She seemed touched by his decision.

This is a very good point, Kevin still looking for his mother's attention after all these years of not getting it. Seriously, could she not make an effort to remember the name of his play? or to meet up with him and Randal for lunch after not having seen him for however long?

While most shows don't know how to portray a good marriage, this one sure does, with Beth/Randal and Jack/Rebecca. The flip side is that they get not married relationship very wrong. Kate thinking that Toby is so much better that she had ever dreamed it could be - WTF!???

That being said, that scene at the restaurant should be Chrissy Metz's Emmy submission, she was just perfect in every way.

Olivia... Her "joke" - you're the adopted one? was seriously bad. As for her convo with William - I cringed at first, but William was so perfect in his answer to her, and gave a performance worthy of any first notch play, and obviously really got to her, so I ended up ok with it. It also reminded me how people with disabilities/sickness would sometimes rather talk about them and explain how they got to be there than have that be the huge elephant in the room that everyone is sidestepping. I'm just remembering that Kevin was the first one to address it head on, and William seemed ok with it. Beth did too, more subtly. 

BUT I think Randall didn't need to wake up his sick father and expect him in the kitchen 7 minutes later - let him sleep, or if you must wake him up, don't expect him to rush to the kitchen. Especially if you expect him to go on a long hike later on. William seemed so weak this episode, and Randall acted so clueless.     

[romantic idiot]

On 11/25/2016 at 3:23 AM, hippielamb said:

It could be that Rebecca sees acting as frivolous, while Randall has a more respectable professional type career.

This would be rich considering Rebecca was (is?) a singer. 

18 hours ago, Calamity Jane said:

S I think Kate would benefit quite a bit because she's not just a bit overweight, she's heavy enough that it's going to impact her health and well-being in many ways.  In her circumstance, I think the surgery is well worth the risk.  Yes, it takes some fortitude, but she's already demonstrating that quality, just not getting a lot of payoff for it.  

Here's what I don't get. I don't see Kate having difficulty managing her food intake (minus the occasional binge), but her problem doesn't seem to be eating less, rather her problem is that she seems to have horrible metabolism and eating less doesn't seem to be working out for her. So how will gastric bypass help? Eating less doesn't seem to be the issue here.

Anyway, I also noted that Kevin's dream was playing for the Steelers, growing up. Not being an actor. I wonder when that changed. And  I wonder if the fight with Randall when the scout was watching had any negative impact on this career. 

[wendyg]

The thing I didn't understand was why the weight loss people didn't point out to Kate that if you exercise a lot, as she was, you're building muscle, and muscle weighs more than fat, so she should judge progress by her clothes getting looser, not just by the number of pounds.

[romantic idiot]

I don't think she's exercising enough to be building any real muscle though. She just seemed to be walking (which again, don't know how healthy it is for her feet, knees and ankles at that weight).