Donald John Trump: 2016 President-Elect

[Kromm]

7 hours ago, tenativelyyours said:

I'm not sure if a taking back of the House and Senate by Deomcrats will change things.  Career politicians and a really warped election system itself will still exist. 

Define "change things". What does it mean to you?

Will taking back the House and Senate release the gridlock on passing legislation? Yes.

Will it allow new Supreme Court Justices to be appointed? Yes.

Will it cause Campaign Finance Reform? Possibly, but not assuredly. Democrats have been the ones talking about it, but it's hard to say if they'd really follow up. PACs and SuperPACs and such just have their hooks too into the system, it's true.

Will gun control pass? Possibly. It depends on that majority's actual composition, because it's not like Republicans are the only ones in the NRA's pocket.

Will empty talk and demagoguery go away? No. The biggest demagogue around currently will, but just as Sarah Palin begat Donald Trump, Donald Trump in turn will beget someone else. Hopefully not someone even worse, but even if not, that kind of thing is never leaving our system now.

Will a third party magically now be viable? Unlikely. Our system is indeed too rigged towards two parties. It's not even necessarily a bad thing, because there's no way a third party would fill any role but take votes from one or the other of the "big" ones. Trumpeteers/Tea Partiers from the Republicans, Greenie/Socialists from the Dems, but neither of those would work as true third parties in that they could swing to either of the big blocks. At best their roles would be extra votes for the main parties they are most similar to, but only when they feel like it. 

Will "career politicians" suddenly disappear in favor of a system where people from other areas rotate in to office? Unlikely. Then again, look what's happened with this baboon Trump. He's not a career politician but has instead ridden the illusion that an outsider could do better all the way (almost) to the top. There's a definitely skill set to being a successful politician and as much as we want to totally disdain it, maybe 2016 has taught us all that we shouldn't (at least totally). Being able to build consensus with others in power? A skill. Being able to deal with fundraising? A skill. Being able to project confidence without it seeming totally empty (the way Trump's version does)?  A skill. And there are more. The best (at their job) career politicians have these. The worst? Are Chris Christie.

Will things change if the Dems take back the House and Senate (and Presidency)?  Yes. Will it change more than laws but instead change the whole system? Unlikely. But stuff WILL get done at least that hasn't for a number of years.

[b2H]

10 hours ago, Pixel said:

This gave me chills. This hits the nail on the head. It's also why I have had no problem clearing out any FB friends who are supporting him.  Although now I think maybe I should have kept them, so they could watch this (I just shared it). 

I have already asked some of my virulent friends how they would feel, as in Olbermann's last statement, if DT's target was their mother or sister.  Interesting how they never, ever respond to that.

[DeLurker]

9 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

It's really hard. I've read about how political differences can really screw up relationships.

I'm really sorry for what you've gone through.  That's really heartbreaking.

I don't talk politics with most of my family or friends, although I do with a few.  Interestingly, I talk about it with a friend who holds wildly different views than I do, but it only works because we don't get upset with each other and he actually has reasons for his position.  I may not agree with the reasons, but doesn't just parrot what he's read or seen on tv.  We conclude each discussion with how misguided the other person is.

He's pretty far right and also friends with my brothers.  He can't talk politics with my far right brother because he (my brother) gets so worked up even if you are on the same side on an issue.

[Kromm]

52 minutes ago, b2H said:

I have already asked some of my virulent friends how they would feel, as in Olbermann's last statement, if DT's target was their mother or sister.  Interesting how they never, ever respond to that.

If they are really sold on "protect the Bible at all costs" (the ultimate source of a lot of this being the Supreme Court future), combined with the religious-like but not actually religious "protection" of the Second Amendment (well, an interpretation of it at least), then they'll go into tunnel vision mode. Trump could, as he once boasted, kill someone in the middle of Times Square and many people wouldn't care.

It's not inherently totally different from people backing off of talking about Bill Clinton's slime trails, or overlooking the fact that Hillary hardly has clean hands and has gotten her hands dirty a lot in her career, or that the email thing, while not criminal showed really bad judgement, but it's elevated to another level because most Democrats and other moderates are at least willing to acknowledge those things exist. The stupid ads showing Hillary like a paragon are a political necessity, but at least in places like this board, you rarely see blind Hillary Clinton worship. People know she's a mess, but she's a mess on a much smaller scale than the psycho in the other room.

That said, I personally feel that people need to keep their skepticism and their self-honesty to the degree that they'll admit at least to themselves that a good part of the Hillary support is just as much because of party positions as happens with the Republicans and Trump. The difference being I hope that there's the extra layer (not replacing the party or issue loyalties) that she's not INSANE. Olbermann isn't overselling how far Trump potentially could go as leader of the formerly free world. He can't do it unilaterally. but we already know he wouldn't HAVE to. He's got plenty of other insane people surrounding him and in the public to help.

I'd say that in four years we could do this all over and get better people on both side, except that's not realistic either. A sitting President being knocked out the box in favor of another candidate isn't going to end well for that party. So it's unlikely to happen.

I dunno. It hurts your chances of getting through to your acquaintances that you yourself (unless you are a Republican who's split with Trump's New Nazi Party) are likely genuinely partisan against things they deeply believe in. You can't hide that if they know you fairly well. They're going to assume another agenda other than not letting a Dictator into power, and at least a little bit they won't be totally wrong. You'd have both motives but it's hard to transparently have both and convince someone that your larger motive is... not letting our civilization be destroyed. In a way it sounds ridiculous. I bet if we'd sent this post back in time two years and someone read it then, they'd think it was ridiculous hyperbole rather than real legitimate fears we have now.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Kromm

[b2H]

@Kromm, it is worse than that.  This guy is a kid from my neighborhood back in the 60s.  Served in the Marines.  One failed marriage.  He is the guy with the memes about the female side of Hillary, to be polite here.  To me, it is no wonder he is still single after the failed marriage, but the stuff he posts is virulent and derogatory.  No Bible involved, except that his dad was a pastor and we were never sure as to the treatment of his mother. 

[P2C2E]

Olbermann's video reminded me of this quote, which I first saw at the Holocaust Museum. It has stayed with me strongly since then.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me 

[Kromm]

18 minutes ago, P2C2E said:

Olbermann's video reminded me of this quote, which I first saw at the Holocaust Museum. It has stayed with me strongly since then.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me 

Pastor Martin Niemöller, a Lutheran priest. He was actually an early supporter of Hitler, but became disillusioned when he saw what Hitler actually did with his power. He and other clergymen who felt the same were rounded up and put in the Concentration Camps themselves eventually. The wording of what he said has actually undergone rewrites, in part because it was translated, but also because he literally wrote different versions (with different groups mentioned) for different speeches he made. It even underwent further revision when it was prepped for the Holocaust museum, because they used "socialists" in place of "communists" (the version actually there doesn't have both like the one above does, and many earlier ones only have "communists"). 

It's even been tweaked since. There's a version of it in Boston, at a Holocaust museum that's apart from the one in Washington, DC, which changes the order and adds in Catholics.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Kromm

[atomationage]

47 minutes ago, Kromm said:

I bet if we'd sent this post back in time two years and someone read it then, they'd think it was ridiculous hyperbole rather than real legitimate fears we have now.

Even earlier this year, people thought the idea of Drumpf's candidacy was a joke, but no one thought that he was the actual person that they saw on The Apprentice.  He's not an actor.  That's really him, and the closer you look at him, the worse it becomes.  Hillary, or one of the PACs that support her, should do an ad just with quotes from his GOP opponents from the primaries.  "You know this man", you just didn't realize it.  His campaign seems to be based on The Sapir Whorf Hypothesis

See also Newt Gingrich's "Language: A Key Mechanism of Control" from

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article4443.htm

Or you could just go back to the Drumpf family's homeland of Germany, for The Big Lie:

http://etnk.co/articles/the-big-lie-theory-and-human-behaviour/

Edited October 19, 2016 by atomationage
family

[callmebetty]

That Keith Olbermann video was chilling. 

I think what's even more chilling is what this election has revealed. Like turning over a rotting log in the forest and seeing all the bugs you didn't know we're living under there. You are beginning to see what is truly in some people's hearts and minds.  Just reading some of your posts and how some thought they knew someone. I still think we are better off than (insert # of years here) ago. Damn, our country elected an African American president,  twice! That's amazing progress,  but there is always work to be done things to improve on. But that's not what the Republican candidate is preaching and I don't think he's going to deliver what he promises. Hillary is far from perfect, but she's not insane. If the Republican candidate doesn't win, even if Nov 9th he say ha ha just kidding I never believed anything I was saying, I'm not like that (hypothetical), he's turned over the log and even trying to put the log back in the same place it never fits, you've shifted the foundation it was settled on, and you've let what was underneath out. But sometimes maybe that's a  good thing. Maybe you can examine and see what's different what can be fixed and make things better.

I'm glad for this forum, I'm glad we can have these type of dialogues.  I'm damn proud of our country no matter it's imperfections, cause I know it could be far far worse. 

[Kromm]

The full Colbert faux-terview with his version of Melania:

[DollEyes]

Leave it to Melania.  It seems like every time she tries to publicly defend her husband, she ends up making things worse. First, it was Melania-or rather, Michelle Obama's-speech at the Republican convention and now it's her so-called "interview" with Anderson Cooper, who could have been way tougher on her, but my theory about why he wasn't is because given Trump's potshots about him not being qualified to moderate the second debate, I think that Cooper wanted to give Melania enough rope to hang herself and him, which is exactly what she did. Melania not only repeated every one of Trump's conspiracy theories like the good little trophy wife she is, she came up with a new one: blame Billy Bush. Melania's claim that Bush somehow tricked Trump into saying those things is ludicrous, to say the least. Trump's ignorance is already the stuff of legends, but implying that he's so gullible that he can get conned into confessing his crimes by the likes of Billy Bush makes him look even more incompetent than ever, if that's even possible anymore; otoh, Trump's incompetence, like his arrogance,  his ignorance, his ego and his hypocrisy, knows no bounds. 

 Melania's trivializing the bus incident, attacking the accusers and calling Trump "a gentleman" after she had just called him "a little boy" are more examples of why she should be seen and not heard. For one thing, Trump is not a child anymore. He was grown then and he's grown now. As for Melania's asking why the accuser's didn't come forward sooner, like I said before, it's because of fear. According to Paul McLaughlin, the ex-journalism professor of Natasha Stoyanoff  of People magazine, if Ms. Stoyanoff had said anything, then not only would her career had been ruined, any magazine that hired her would have been ruined too-and given Trump's temper, chances are he would have done it and thought nothing of it. Trump proves time and time again that he's scorched-earth, not "We Are the World." Re Melania's saying "Don't feel sorry for me," I don't feel sorry for her nor him; otoh, my heart goes out to Barron, their son. With them as parents, IMO when it comes to growing up sane, he doesn't stand a chance. As far as I'm concerned, Melania Trump, you're no Michelle Obama. 

Re Keith Olbermann's rant, I don't always agree with him, but that gave me life like my mama! 

Edited October 21, 2016 by DollEyes

[atomationage]

I've linked to the Tea "Consent is Everything" video several times in various threads.  This is a new one from Vox called Consent, Explained For Donald Trump, referring to the orginal Tea Consent video, featuring Jill Harth, Temple Taggart, with  nonsense from rush limburger, corey lewandumski, ghouliani, and other assault justifiers.

[MulletorHater]

2 hours ago, P2C2E said:

Olbermann's video reminded me of this quote, which I first saw at the Holocaust Museum. It has stayed with me strongly since then.

First they came for the Communists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Communist
Then they came for the Socialists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Socialist
Then they came for the trade unionists
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a trade unionist
Then they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out
Because I was not a Jew
Then they came for me
And there was no one left
To speak out for me 

As an African American, I can't afford to NOT be hyper-vigilant.  I've always understood the coded language and dog whistles that have been thrown about by some politicians long before Drumpf came on the scene.  He's only saying out loud and in living color what some have been saying behind closed doors in the comfort of their homes, churches, social clubs and backyard barbecues.  Some of us recognized Drumpf for what he is based on his being in plain sight for 30+ years.  His scorched earth vendetta against the young men who were wrongfully (and maliciously) convicted of raping a woman in Central Park comes to mind.  That's why it amused me initially, and then infuriated me that Drumpf's surrogates, collaborators and enablers waxed poetic about him "pivoting" for the general election.  No, you dumb, self-serving fucks!  He is who he IS!  

Keith Olbermann's latest rant is frightening, and he can't overstate how dangerous Drumpf and his followers are.  Even The New York Times had an article regarding the rise in anti-Semitic hate tweets and death threats journalists have been receiving since last year.  That a lot of those doing the threatening identify themselves as Drumpf supporters is no surprise to me.  The hatred is ramped up every time these brave souls do their jobs.  Someone told me yesterday that even Chuck Todd has been getting hate mail, and that several newsrooms are seeing a racheting up of these kinds of threats.  Some journalists are also getting threats at their homes, and their children are being targeted because the assholes doing the threatening have been doing their research.  One journalist even stated that she actually went out and purchased a .22 because shit just got real.

See, I can't afford to sit back and say, "Oh, he's just attacking the Mexicans," or "Oh, he's just targeting the Muslims."  Because at the end of the day, "they" have never stopped coming for people like me.

[Padma]

One thing I appreciate about Trump is his egotism and lack of discipline. Because even a few months ago, if he HAD "pivoted" to the center after he got the nomination (even after that horrible convention), I know some people who would have voted for him. Smart people, not hateful (as I think of them anyway), but who weren't paying lose attention and really liked the whole "tell it like it is" image and "successful (gag) businessman shaking up Washington because it really needs it" thing. 

If he had stayed on a populist message--nationalism, some isolationism but fighting terrorism (and not "killing terrorist families"), bringing back companies abroad (but not his own),  railing against globalism, changing his mind about the minimum wage, being conservative with the SC, avoiding environmental conversations, pushing the "law and order" thing while continuing to talk in white suburbs about his "concern" for the hellish lives of minorities (not recognizing achievements and real lifestyles or diversity).... etc. etc. If you add in the sexism and general anti-Hillary emotions.... he could, by now, have it in the bag.

If he had JUST been smarter and more self disciplined (like Kellyanne --ick-- rather than Bannon), we could be contemplating President Trump right now. 

So I'm super grateful for his narcissistic personality disorder and that he's an inveterate liar who just can't stop himself. Yay! Thanks!

[springtime]

Kellyanne Conway really looks worn out (and I'm sure she is!)

[Moose135]

7 minutes ago, springtime said:

Kellyanne Conway really looks worn out (and I'm sure she is!)

Well, she never gets a day off...

[atomationage]

7 minutes ago, Padma said:

So I'm super grateful for his narcissistic personality disorder and that he's an inveterate liar who just can't stop himself. Yay! Thanks!

Yeah, but what if the next guy has all the same views, but is a smooth talker, hasn't assaulted anyone, and actually has "the best words", unlike Mr. and Mrs. Drumpf?  Then what?  IMO, it's all the fault of the GOP/Faux "news" pandering to the lunatic fringe.  I don't think there's anyway of putting Alex Jones, Breitbart, Limburger and the rest back under the rocks they crawled out from, as mentioned very ably by, well, a poster whose post I can't find right now. 

Anyway, this is trending, from Liz Garbus, It's not ok:

[Padma]

She looks terrible. She deserves every line and bag and gray hair she gets from, literally, selling her soul to the deil.

I have to stop watching the news because even little things are infuriating. For example, demonstrators supporting Latino immigrants have organized a "taco truck wall" around Trump's hotel.  I could scream.

The eyes of the nation are all on Las Vegas. For nearly a year, Trump has fought against the union that workers at his hotel voted for. He's taken them to court and lost, but is appealing it.  I thought when the first debate was there that it would be an issue. (Their "working class champion" is ANTI UNION!!!)  But... no. No one mentioned it. His 16 opponents never made it an issue and Democrats seem to be asleep at the wheel as well.

Would it have been impossible to PICKET his hotel today?  To draw attention to his awfulness with a clear message that is not about "taco trucks"  Urghhhhh!!!!!

[Silver Raven]

So Trump is inviting Barack Obama's half brother to the debate.  I don't know what purpose that is supposed to serve, but Kellyanne Conway says it's to show that they are "inclusive".  Right, we're supposed to believe that.  Barack and Malik were each other's best man at their weddings, and they've visited each other frequently, so it's not as if they're bitter enemies or anything.  And I suppose Trump's people don't know that Malik has spoken of his support for Hamas in the past,

[Padma]

Trump's people MAY know. And be looking forward to having Malik interviewed with his radical views and people confusing him as a Hillary supporter.

I hear from Alex Jones that there are demons running around in our politics. I have to admit when I see and hear robotic Kellyanne and hateful Donald I -do- start to wonder. Her babble about Malik being there because "we're inclusive" actually made my stomach turn. I did kind of like Hallie Jackson asking her, "It's not because it revisits the 'Kenya thing'?" Kellyanne lies more emotionlessly and effortlessly than anyone I've ever seen. It's scary! If I were young enough to trick or treat, I would think of being her for Halloween. She makes me think of "Children of the Corn" (shudders).

[Drumpf1737]

One of my key frustrations this election cycle is the way in which everyone pretends that the Republican party hasn't courted racists for years. Just 4 years ago every one of the candidates for POTUS said some variation of "black people should stop asking for hand outs". Remember Santorum's infamous "blah people". Trump isn't a symptom he's the result of more and more racist vitriol from the Republican party.

What is the point of bringing Obama's brother to the debate if not to touch that "he's a foreigner who stole our election" nerve in Trump's base. 

I hate how limited my choices were this election cycle but I will be thrilled to see it end.

[xaxat]

1 hour ago, Padma said:

So I'm super grateful for his narcissistic personality disorder and that he's an inveterate liar who just can't stop himself. Yay! Thanks!

Is it a lie if you honestly believe every word that comes out of your mouth?

Because I think he does.

[Kromm]

3 hours ago, MulletorHater said:

As an African American, I can't afford to NOT be hyper-vigilant.  I've always understood the coded language and dog whistles that have been thrown about by some politicians long before Drumpf came on the scene.  He's only saying out loud and in living color what some have been saying behind closed doors in the comfort of their homes, churches, social clubs and backyard barbecues.  Some of us recognized Drumpf for what he is based on his being in plain sight for 30+ years.  His scorched earth vendetta against the young men who were wrongfully (and maliciously) convicted of raping a woman in Central Park comes to mind.  That's why it amused me initially, and then infuriated me that Drumpf's surrogates, collaborators and enablers waxed poetic about him "pivoting" for the general election.  No, you dumb, self-serving fucks!  He is who he IS!  

Keith Olbermann's latest rant is frightening, and he can't overstate how dangerous Drumpf and his followers are.  Even The New York Times had an article regarding the rise in anti-Semitic hate tweets and death threats journalists have been receiving since last year.  That a lot of those doing the threatening identify themselves as Drumpf supporters is no surprise to me.  The hatred is ramped up every time these brave souls do their jobs.  Someone told me yesterday that even Chuck Todd has been getting hate mail, and that several newsrooms are seeing a racheting up of these kinds of threats.  Some journalists are also getting threats at their homes, and their children are being targeted because the assholes doing the threatening have been doing their research.  One journalist even stated that she actually went out and purchased a .22 because shit just got real.

See, I can't afford to sit back and say, "Oh, he's just attacking the Mexicans," or "Oh, he's just targeting the Muslims."  Because at the end of the day, "they" have never stopped coming for people like me.

Yeah, the biggest variance is simply the level of denial.  But the hate is everywhere now.

These days people BARELY deny targeting Muslims. A thin veneer of denial for some, and no denial at all for others. Of course those assholes in ISIS are feeding this, but Trump and his ilk are just furthering their work by giving them even more ammo to make their enemies turn on each other.

At least in certain parts of the Country, the disrespect and venom for Mexicans specifically, and Latinos in general, is only slightly better veiled. I'm not talking about people looking down on their gardener, or being condescending to a nanny or housekeeper (I'm talking about these stereotypical jobs on purpose and not the legions of white collar professionals because it's where the hate is most overt), because as distasteful as those behaviors might seem, the folks who do those jobs WANT to do them and usually appreciate having them. Putting up with random shit is far from the worst they face. The bigger danger are the ugly people who follow the logic that somehow those jobs being filled are taking something away from everyone else.

Then we get to African Americans. Where it runs the gamut. Every kind of targeting possible. Increasingly... often literally, with guns. It would be stupid to act like there isn't a ton of crime perpetrated by poor African Americans, and cops often have to stop it. But it goes off the damn rails because nobody even wants to work that hard to ensure people's rights are actually being protected. And the good cops go down with the bad, because not nearly damn enough money is being put into body cameras for EVERY last cop, nor absolute accountability for every damn time they draw a weapon rather than just talk to someone.  Does Trump really give a shit about any of this? No. He thinks Stop And Frisk is an answer. Dumbass. 

And OF COURSE there's a rise in antisemitism. Is anyone really that shocked?  The Jews are mostly past the days when they're the first targeted, because they don't physically stand out as much anymore (back in ye olden days, not only were there less people of color around to distract people from noting what a "Jewish nose" looks like, or that at the time Jews all tended to dress like only the Orthodox Jews dress like now). But that doesn't mean they aren't EVENTUALLY always in the sights of the haters. The assumption being that if every black person is out to rob you physically that every Jewish person is out to rob you in some other way. 

Argh. It does make you sick, doesn't it? Even considering how blatant it's all gotten again. How little "cover" people think they need for their hate now.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Kromm

[Hanahope]

It was commented in the Bill Maher thread that Trump won't really be worse than Bush and we could probably survive four years.  I disagree.

GWB is exactly why Trump shouldn't be president.  Bush made a real mess of this country during his 8 years.  A huge expensive war that didn't solve a damn thing and in fact most likely made things significantly worse for the US with the middle east.  A war that drove our country into a huge debt that ended up in China's hands, which is a huge problem for our economy.

A major recession that almost certainly would have become a depression if not for the election with a change in president and party.  Coupled with the crippling of our economy from the war debt, and realistically, we still haven't fully recovered.  People lost their homes, their jobs, their retirement savings.  Its still a problem for the middle class.

Both foreign and domestic, Bush almost ruined this country because he was so unqualified and unfit and essentially let Cheney run the country.  You want to risk that again, on someone who's actually worse?  

Edited October 19, 2016 by Hanahope

[MulletorHater]

1 hour ago, springtime said:

Kellyanne Conway really looks worn out (and I'm sure she is!)

Some people get the face they deserve.  To paraphrase the wife in the State Farm commercial:  She sounds [and looks] hideous!

It must be difficult and downright exhausting trying to balance her lies against her client's.  Most of us are taught at a young age by our parents that if you tell one lie, you damn well better have a good memory because of all the other lies you have to tell to cover the first one.  Sometimes I get the sense that Kellyanne is actually more invested in fighting and discrediting the Clintons than she is in seeing that slug she represents in the White House.

And, for this silly troll with the bad hair to claim they are trying to show how inclusive the party can be, she needs to quit it.  Finding useful idiots who happen to have a little more melanin than you doesn't mean jack.  Especially when your party's platform for years has been exclusion, demonizing and scapegoating those same people and their communities.  Nice try, though.

[BookWoman56]

I have pretty much had to stay off Facebook for the last couple of months to avoid having my blood pressure rise to dangerous levels because of political postings. I have friends and family with diverse political views, and with some of them, it's just better for me to avoid the pro-Trump contingent. If my family is anything to go by, though, there are various reasons that some people are voting for Trump regardless of their normal political affiliation or lack thereof. My mother, my two older sisters, and I are all fervent pro-Hillary people. My brother used to be more liberal but about 10 years ago married someone who is super religious. She is a one-issue voter; she will not vote for any pro-choice candidate regardless of positions on any other issues. With my brother himself, my sense is that he thinks both choices are bad but will probably vote for Trump to appease his wife. My younger sister and her husband are both on-again, off-again druggies, super-religious, racist, anti-immigrant homophobes because, you know, [sarcasm alert] it's all those groups' fault that my sister and BiL are poor and without decent jobs. Their socioeconomic situation has nothing to do with their own bad choices, not at all. I have an aunt and set of cousins who are firmly convinced that Faux News is the only news worth listening to, and with them it's equal parts pro-Trump on immigration issues and the conviction that Hillary is satan. I'd like to think that if Trump did in fact kill someone in the middle of Times Square, they'd reconsider their vote, but I'm not entirely convinced that they would. They seem to have tunnel vision and just tune out anything that under other conditions would make them absolutely unwilling to vote for someone. Please note that I am not in any way implying that other people voting for Trump are doing so for these reasons, just that these are the reasons I have seen among my immediate and extended family. I think one of the things that bothers me the most about this election is that it's so difficult to talk to people about it without somebody getting offended. In the past, both family and friends have supported opposite sides of the political fence but without the extremism that I'm seeing this time around.

[atomationage]

45 minutes ago, Kromm said:

It would be stupid to act like their isn't a ton of crime perpetrated by poor African Americans

I'm pretty stupid.  My experience has shown me that it isn't actually the poorest African Americans that perpetrate a ton of crimes.   A person can come from a respectable middle class background and still be a criminal.  Poor kids aren't the only ones in gangs, or that exhibit anti-social behavior.  It just seems like poor plus black equals target.

43 minutes ago, MulletorHater said:

And, for this silly troll with the bad hair to claim they are trying to show how inclusive the party can be, she needs to quit it

I thought you were talking about Drumpf, not Kellyanne Fitzpatrick who married a Conway who was one of Paula Jones's lawyers.  I don't know when it was filmed, but there's a new UK series, not very good, called Zapped, in which the main character points at a picture in a book, and says, "That's Donald Trump."  The other guy says, "No, it's the Orange Troll".

34 minutes ago, BookWoman56 said:

I'd like to think that if Trump did in fact kill someone in the middle of Times Square, they'd reconsider their vote, but I'm not entirely convinced that they would.

Just the fact that Drumpf ever said this should have been a disqualifier for anyone with a grain of common sense.  I wonder if, after he loses the election, he'll found a community in a foreign country called Trumptown, and the kool-aid will start flowing. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by atomationage

[backformore]

just for fun - 

Evangelical Trump

Quote

 

#EvangelicalTrump Saved Twitter From Being Bored As Hell

 

10/19/2016 04:26 pm ET

Andy McDonald Comedy Writer / Editor, The Huffington Post

 

Despite his classless comments, the many disturbing allegations against him, and the hatred his supporters promote, Donald Trump is still likely going to win over Evangelicals.

So, for this week’s Stupor Tuesday, we thought we’d put that relationship to the ultimate test by asking Twitter to weigh in on #EvangelicalTrump.

Examples: 

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You should look into this 'virgin' Mary's past, believe me. You'll find some very questionable things." #evangelicaltrump

"I would like to see Jesus' birth certificate." #EvangelicalTrump

Look, I'm not proud of what I said about Mary Magdalene. It was just Roman bathhouse talk #EvangelicalTrump

We're going to build an ark. And the animals are going to pay for it. #EvangelicalTrump @HuffPostComedy

"People say I've been inappropriate with nuns. Have you seen nuns? I don't think so!"

[millennium]

17 hours ago, atomationage said:

Olbermann's latest rant on Drumpf.  You know this man:

I' ve always admired Olbermann, used to hang on his every word back in the MSNBC days.   It's a pity he blew it and let himself become marginalized like this.   His words are important, and, true to form, he's the only one courageous enough to speak them publicly.   Problem is, he's preaching to the choir.    The only folks willing to give Keith Olbermann eleven minutes and fifty-six seconds are already dead-set against Trump.   He validates everything we're feeling and it's cathartic to hear our deep-seated dread so strongly and eloquently vocalized.   But I'm afraid he's not changing anyone's mind.   First, he's not in a position to change anyone's mind with a video web blog.   And second, the people whose minds need changing ... they've locked the doors and pulled down the shades.   Ain't nobody getting through to them now.

I had to switch off CNN again today.   They parked Brooke Baldwin directly in front of the Trump supporter camp, so no matter who was speaking -- Brooke or her guests -- all you could hear was the chanting in the background "TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP TRUMP."   Without pause.   The effect was like a brainwashing experiment.   You try to focus on what was being said, but you can't because all that sinks in is the power of the chant.

[ruby24]

1 hour ago, Hanahope said:

It was commented in the Bill Maher thread that Trump won't really be worse than Bush and we could probably survive four years.  I disagree.

GWB is exactly why Trump shouldn't be president.  Bush made a real mess of this country during his 8 years.  A huge expensive war that didn't solve a damn thing and in fact most likely made things significantly worse for the US with the middle east.  A war that drove our country into a huge debt that ended up in China's hands, which is a huge problem for our economy.

A major recession that almost certainly would have become a depression if not for the election with a change in president and party.  Coupled with the crippling of our economy from the war debt, and realistically, we still haven't fully recovered.  People lost their homes, their jobs, their retirement savings.  Its still a problem for the middle class.

Both foreign and domestic, Bush almost ruined this country because he was so unqualified and unfit and essentially let Cheney run the country.  You want to risk that again, on someone who's actually worse?  

I agree, but as awful and disastrous as the Bush presidency was, I would take a third term of W before one DAY of Trump. That's how strongly I feel about this. The man is an authoritarian.

[Kromm]

34 minutes ago, millennium said:

I' ve always admired Olbermann, used to hang on his every word back in the MSNBC days.   It's a pity he blew it and let himself become marginalized like this.   His words are important, and, true to form, he's the only one courageous enough to speak them publicly.   Problem is, he's preaching to the choir.    The only folks willing to give Keith Olbermann eleven minutes and fifty-six seconds are already dead-set against Trump.   He validates everything we're feeling and it's cathartic to hear our deep-seated dread so strongly and eloquently vocalized.   But I'm afraid he's not changing anyone's mind.   First, he's not in a position to change anyone's mind with a video web blog.   And second, the people whose minds need changing ... they've locked the doors and pulled down the shades.   Ain't nobody getting through to them now.

Yeah, pretty much.

What he said has impact, but nobody's ever going to hear it who isn't already open to it.

[ruby24]

How is bringing Obama's half brother to the debate supposed to rattle Hillary? See, this just goes back to my belief that Trump hates Obama more than Hillary and because she's a woman, sees her as some nuisance that he shouldn't have to take seriously. That's why Bill's affairs are somehow a reflection on her, because she belongs to her husband and she's nothing but an extension of him.

Edited October 19, 2016 by ruby24

[Kromm]

1 hour ago, atomationage said:

I'm pretty stupid.  My experience has shown me that it isn't actually the poorest African Americans that perpetrate a ton of crimes.   A person can come from a respectable middle class background and still be a criminal.  Poor kids aren't the only ones in gangs, or that exhibit anti-social behavior.  It just seems like poor plus black equals target.

Nobody said "only". But we are talking about the excuses that the bad cops and the bad Trump supporters both use.

It's counterproductive to act like poverty doesn't intersect with criminal behavior. What differs between the Trumpeteers and the rest of the world is how you deal with that fact. Do you punish the people who have less and so are easy targets even for the things they DON'T do, or do you battle the root causes by raising minimum wages, boosting inner-city services, and by setting up proper accountability so that the fact that poverty breeds crime doesn't turn into an excuse to never look any further for a perpetrator (not to mention an excuse to punish people in the process of questioning or arresting them rather than protect both sides of the process with stuff that costs actual money and resources, like body cameras and actual training that emphasizes minimum force)?

Cops aren't necessarily the enemy. Being lazy, cheap and maintaining a blue wall are.

Edited October 19, 2016 by Kromm

[Kitty Redstone]

Still no Republican leaders coming out to denounce the extremism that Trump and his supporters represent, huh?  Paul Ryan deserves to lose his job, as do his cronies, for being such pathetic wafflers. 

[atomationage]

Keegan-Michael Key, The Weather forecast if Drumpf is elected:

[Pixel]

17 hours ago, FilmTVGeek80 said:

It's really hard. I've read about how political differences can really screw up relationships. I've seen the SNL , and other places, skits about the kind of arguments politics can cause, but I've never really experienced it myself, probably because I've never participated in politics as much as I have this year. I've talked with friends about this before. Most of them have talked about how they usually don't let political differences affect their relationships, but that this year is different because of how repugnant Trump and his views are. I'd love to just remove some Trump supporters from my life, but it's difficult since most of them are people that I've respected for years. It's been really shocking to go on Facebook and see so many people I thought were intelligent defending some of the gross things Trump has said and done. It's especially difficult because of the divide between what my relatives and I think and what my husband's family thinks. I don't want to necessarily say this is the reason for it, but my husband's family is White and I'm Black and sometimes I just want to scream "Well, of course, you don't give a shit about the disgusting, disrespectful things Trump has said. He's not denigrating you and your family." I got in big trouble last week because my MIL posted this stupid meme to Facebook defending Trump's hot mic comments by talking about how if women are so upset about naughty words then why was 50 Shades of Grey so popular. I had to point out that it wasn't about naughty words but about having a problem with someone boasting about sexual assault. I was slightly snarky with what I said, but I wasn't particularly rude but my MIL and her sister took it to a personal level that I was not prepared for. It led to some issues with my husband too because she unnecessarily put him in the middle of it. I'm trying really hard to avoid those kinds of landmines for the next three weeks (which is why I'm really grateful to find these forums.)

I've defriended several people. Today it was my cousin, who said I would be wishing Trump had won and that I had on blinders.  He didn't get defriended for that statement. He got defriended because he's aligned himself with a misogynistic bigot who stands for nothing but hate.

[xaxat]

2 hours ago, Kromm said:

It would be stupid to act like there isn't a ton of crime perpetrated by poor African Americans, and cops often have to stop it.

The crazy thing is that violent crime rates are at their lowest levels in decades. Nationwide and in communities of color. 

Yet politicians of both parties, the police and the media act as if there has been no progress and things are actually worse than they were in the eighties and nineties.

My grandmother used to live in the projects in Pittsburgh and I simply can not convince her that her new place (which is just blocks away from the old, now demolished, buildings) is dramatically safer than  it used to be.

[junemeatcleaver]

Roger Ailes and Trump are no longer speaking.

I can't believe all of these long time friends of Trump didn't notice he was an unfocused, dumb lunatic before all this.

[SoSueMe]

Uh, rumor has it that the Trump camp has invited Sarah Palin to the debate. LOLOLOLOL

[xaxat]

5 minutes ago, junemeatcleaver said:

Roger Ailes and Trump are no longer speaking.

I can't believe all of these long time friends of Trump didn't notice he was an unfocused, dumb lunatic before all this.

Could it be because Bannon (formerly with Breitbart) won the battle to run a future Trump media enterprise?

[peacheslatour]

Quote

And be looking forward to having Malik interviewed with his radical views and people confusing him as a Hillary supporter.

I don't know why Trump thinks having Malik there will rattle Hilary. Maybe he doesn't realize that in no way are the Clinton's the Obama's.

[atomationage]

Hillary might be glad to meet the President's brother if they haven't already met.   There must be more involved if it's supposed to be a stunt.  Maybe he thinks Malik can get him votes somehow.  Olbermann's latest is about Drumpf projecting his faults, actions, and fears onto others:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLiyQVn6Xnw

An interesting thing was that Drumpf sometimes sounds like he's saying his projections into a mirror.  I wonder if he has practiced looking into a mirror, and the sniffing is a tell related to some part of his process. 

Edited October 19, 2016 by atomationage
maybe

[starri]

1 hour ago, ruby24 said:

It was commented in the Bill Maher thread that Trump won't really be worse than Bush and we could probably survive four years.  I disagree.

It's probably true...so long as you are a straight, white, cis-gendered, college-educated, Christian man.  I have former Bernie-backer friends who are voting for Trump to "bring the revolution" and they're almost all in that mold.

[Milk-Eyed Mender]

Speaking of Evangelical Trump, a post appeared in my FB newsfeed today comparing the Orange Menace to Saul of Tarsus/St. Paul, declaring him a messenger of God. There is not enough alcohol in the world some days.

[tenativelyyours]

3 hours ago, Hanahope said:

It was commented in the Bill Maher thread that Trump won't really be worse than Bush and we could probably survive four years.  I disagree.

GWB is exactly why Trump shouldn't be president.  Bush made a real mess of this country during his 8 years.  A huge expensive war that didn't solve a damn thing and in fact most likely made things significantly worse for the US with the middle east.  A war that drove our country into a huge debt that ended up in China's hands, which is a huge problem for our economy.

A major recession that almost certainly would have become a depression if not for the election with a change in president and party.  Coupled with the crippling of our economy from the war debt, and realistically, we still haven't fully recovered.  People lost their homes, their jobs, their retirement savings.  Its still a problem for the middle class.

Both foreign and domestic, Bush almost ruined this country because he was so unqualified and unfit and essentially let Cheney run the country.  You want to risk that again, on someone who's actually worse?  

Yeah, I'm trying to parse in my imagination which would be worse.  A third term for Cheney -- consider how he would have approached the Arab Spring?  Egypt?  Now Syria? 

Or a Pence Presidency trying to balance the Orange Scrotum's cosplay Oval Office games?

The idea of Cheney letting loose in a post-Arab Spring/ISIS/Syrian world really terrifies me.  But Pence is just so fucking stupid that for him to try to be the brains of the outfit?  And coupled with the incredible overreach intellectually by the Beast's children who think they are all way smarter than they are if their spawner wins? 

Cheney vs Pence?  Shoot me now.

ETA: Evangelicals are not as homogeneous as I think the Republicans are hoping.  There was an attempt to rouse them over guns following Sandy Hook which was a huge mistake and quickly got smothered.  There also was a core component that was not thrilled to see a Mormon on the ticket in 2012 and there was considerable dissatisfaction of some Evangelical leaders claiming Romney as one their own when to them a Mormon is worse than a Catholic or Jew.    Its one thing to condemn older corrupt bases of your religion as you pass them by, its another for someone to try to pass you wearing magical underwear and waving gold tablets that say you don't have the latest and greatest from God.  Just going by anecdotal evidence I see and hear from the people of faith I know who usually swerve hard right now looking at the Orange Scrotum and don't buy it.  Adding Pence to the ticket might have herded a number of those back, but the grabbing thing?  I think that could well seal the deal on staying home or simply not voting for him in any way they can.

Edited October 19, 2016 by tenativelyyours

[Kromm]

7 minutes ago, starri said:

It's probably true...so long as you are a straight, white, cis-gendered, college-educated, Christian man.  I have former Bernie-backer friends who are voting for Trump to "bring the revolution" and they're almost all in that mold.

Nah, it's bullshit.

Bush was a bit dim, but he wasn't particularly egotistical or thin-skinned. And he had his actually Daddy (George H.), and his virtual Daddy (Dick Cheney) looking over his shoulder. He'd listen to people, and he was in the end a party loyalist, even if a schmuck. There's no sign he was especially selfish, nor that in the context of his belief system particularly cruel (Cheney took care of "cruel"). He did the country and the world a good deal of damage, but it was for more complicated reasons than him simply being a bad man. He probably wasn't and isn't. He was just an idiot.

Trump listens to nobody but Trump. He's got clear anger issues, clear impulse control issues, and worst of all he either doesn't know, or simply won't acknowledge his limits. He's also if you credit faith as occasionally a good thing (religion not always, but faith sometimes) a man of no faith, but he's also inherently selfish and narcissistic. Trump is, to put it bluntly, a bad man. A very bad one.

Trump will be far worse. Dubya didn't want to hurt people, his Presidency just DID. Trump often does want to hurt people, but even when he doesn't and it just happens, he really doesn't care. He cares about winning. About being celebrated. About having the most toys. About having the last word. About sometimes having the ONLY word. 

If you want to compare Trump to a leader compare him to Nero. He will be fiddling while everything burns around him.

[Padma]

42 minutes ago, Kromm said:

Nah, it's bullshit.

Bush was a bit dim, but he wasn't particularly egotistical or thin-skinned. And he had his actually Daddy (George H.), and his virtual Daddy (Dick Cheney) looking over his shoulder. He'd listen to people, and he was in the end a party loyalist, even if a schmuck. There's no sign he was especially selfish, nor that in the context of his belief system particularly cruel (Cheney took care of "cruel"). He did the country and the world a good deal of damage, but it was for more complicated reasons than him simply being a bad man. He probably wasn't and isn't. He was just an idiot.

Trump listens to nobody but Trump. He's got clear anger issues, clear impulse control issues, and worst of all he either doesn't know, or simply won't acknowledge his limits. He's also if you credit faith as occasionally a good thing (religion not always, but faith sometimes) a man of no faith, but he's also inherently selfish and narcissistic. Trump is, to put it bluntly, a bad man. A very bad one.

Trump will be far worse. Dubya didn't want to hurt people, his Presidency just DID. Trump often does want to hurt people, but even when he doesn't and it just happens, he really doesn't care. He cares about winning. About being celebrated. About having the most toys. About having the last word. About sometimes having the ONLY word. 

If you want to compare Trump to a leader compare him to Nero. He will be fiddling while everything burns around him.

I agree about Trump. Bush? Not so much. Not that he was mean, just so arrogant. I'll never forget when in 2000 he was on "Letterman" and, during a commercial break wanted to clean his glasses. So, not having a handkerchief, he leaned over and used the pashmina of Letterman's producer without her knowledge. (The cameraman filming thought it was outrageous enough to bring it to their attention and DL ran the clip the next night. If Youtube was in existence then, I don't think Bush would have been president. That gesture really spoke to me about his sense of entitlement--and some sexism, too).

That said, he must have charisma to get Tony Blair so in line in Iraq. And, unlike Jeb, he had a lot of swag. I'd like to have seen him take on Trump (also, for different reasons, seen Reagan take him on.) The 2015 crop of Republicans was pathetic.

Re: Cheney or Pence. It makes me think of Lindsey Graham on Trump v. Cruz, "Would you rather be shot to death or poisoned?" Unlike Cheney, Pence looks kindly, grandfatherly and pious. I think that probably makes him even more dangerous.

[formerlyfreedom]

The Live Chat topic for the debate has been unlocked; if you're watching pre-debate coverage on one of the networks, please feel free to head over there to talk.  PLEASE - NO DEBATE LIVE CHAT in here. We're volunteer mods, please love us!

[partofme]

5 hours ago, Drumpf1737 said:

One of my key frustrations this election cycle is the way in which everyone pretends that the Republican party hasn't courted racists for years. Just 4 years ago every one of the candidates for POTUS said some variation of "black people should stop asking for hand outs". Remember Santorum's infamous "blah people". Trump isn't a symptom he's the result of more and more racist vitriol from the Republican party.

Thank you for this.   All the other Republican candidates believe the things Trump does, they are just smarter about how they say things.  During the primaries I used to get asked which Republican candidate scared me the most and I couldn't pick one cause they all scare me, they are all a danger to this country.

[PatsyandEddie]

25 minutes ago, saoirse said:

The Live Chat topic for the debate has been unlocked; if you're watching pre-debate coverage on one of the networks, please feel free to head over there to talk.  PLEASE - NO DEBATE LIVE CHAT in here. We're volunteer mods, please love us!

******melting******