The Other Duggars: The Lost Girls and Amy

[BitterApple]

To be fair to the State of Arkansas, it's not like high school is all that hard to graduate from regardless of where you live. Grades are so inflated you'd have to make a serious effort NOT to make it out of high school.

IIRC, Jessa is the only one with an actual HS Diploma, everyone else (allegedly) has GED's.

[allonsyalice]

What about Josiah? he had that party with the bowtie for his graduation. was that just a ged??

[andromeda331]

But everything I've heard from other teachers indicates that many times the home-schooled children are ahead of public kids by leaps and bounds. I don't think I've ever heard a single story about home-schoolers having a difficult time adjusting academically.

 

 

Me too. Its never the education that people mention when they worry about homeschooling because academically they learn faster. Its not being around kids their age, missing out on events, options to join band or orchestra and so on that people worry about.  Normal parents who home school (not Duggars) nearly always have playdates, sign their kids up for arts, sports, and other things.

[truthtalk2014]

Does anyone know when this family bathes?  I am mostly talking about the little kids and howlers.  Most kids that age get pretty dirty during the day.  I know mine always took a bath or shower at night.  I didn't want them going to bed dirty.  Most people I knew did the same with their kids.  

 

I've never heard it mentioned if they get a proper bath at night.  To me, it's just part of a good bed time routine. 

 

I kept thinking (again I need the 12 step program for even thinking about this crazy family so much) that the reason Mary has so much laundry is that the kids don't get a bath at night and have to change into their polos or heaven forbid pajamas and that they put on a new pair each night and then toss that stuff down the shoot for good old Grandma Duggar to wash the next day.  

 

And, as someone mentioned, they probably use bath towels the way they do paper plates.  I'm sure they have never heard of hanging up and reusing a bath towel that you simply dried off with after getting clean in the bath.  

 

Why do I have the feeling that when MEchelle had only the first few and the others were not trained to do laundry, that maybe they did.  

Edited March 28, 2015 by truthtalk2014

[Wellfleet]

Does anyone know when this family bathes?  I am mostly talking about the little kids and howlers.  Most kids that age get pretty dirty during the day.  I know mine always took a bath or shower at night.  I didn't want them going to bed dirty.  Most people I knew did the same with their kids.  

 

I've never heard it mentioned if they get a proper bath at night.  To me, it's just part of a good bed time routine. 

 

I kept thinking (again I need the 12 step program for even thinking about this crazy family so much) that the reason Mary has so much laundry is that the kids don't get a bath at night and have to change into their polos or heaven forbid pajamas and that they put on a new pair each night and then toss that stuff down the shoot for good old Grandma Duggar to wash the next day.  

 

And, as someone mentioned, they probably use bath towels the way they do paper plates.  I'm sure they have never heard of hanging up and reusing a bath towel that you simply dried off with after getting clean in the bath.  

 

Why do I have the feeling that when MEchelle had only the first few and the others were not trained to do laundry, that maybe they did.  

 

After a lot of observation this has become my theory too. However many loads Grandma is doing each week, I think it's virtually ALL day clothes and underwear. No sleepwear [apparently they sleep in tees, sweat pants, even jeans]. Very little bed and bath linen. We know not all beds have the usual linen on them [flat/fitted sheets & pillowcases] and for the ones that do, I have to wonder how often things are changed. The kids are also not usually what I'd describe as clean and well-groomed. The older ones don't look dirty per se most of the time, but the girls' hair usually has a just-rolled-out-of-bed look, and their outfits are usually quite rumpled. Apparently no one has the "ironing" jurisdiction. The little kids don't look as though they're washed regularly at all and I literally want to take a hot soapy washcloth to Josie Grossie practically each time she's on camera. She always looks like she's rocking a dirty, sticky face and hands. They don't even seem to use kitchen linen. Everything in this household is done the laziest and most environmentally-irresponsible way possible. More so when you consider that there are more than enough bodies to do all the chores necessary to maintaining a neat, clean and well-ordered home. I won't even go into the disposable dinnerware/flatware 3 times a day. There can be no excuse - other than laziness - for the shortcuts the Duggars employ on a daily basis.

[JenCarroll]

Our state requires all 8th graders and 12th graders to pass a Constitution test. It is a requirement for graduation. I question whether any of the kids (or Jim Bob and Michelle) could do this.

Really? Do you mind telling which state you're in? Is it Federal Constitution only, or State and Federal? That's a wonderful thing. Aaaaand now I'm trying to picture anyone in that family from Boob on down, picking up the US Constitution, reading it, and understanding any part of it... yeah, not happening. But hey, they know bankruptcy law doesn't mean you go to a bank!

(Actually, I doubt a lot of Americans could pass a test on the Constitution. My anecdotal experience tells me that hardly anyone has ever read it. But that's another whole thing...)

Edited March 28, 2015 by JenCarroll

[SoSueMe]

After a lot of observation this has become my theory too. However many loads Grandma is doing each week, I think it's virtually ALL day clothes and underwear. No sleepwear [apparently they sleep in tees, sweat pants, even jeans]. Very little bed and bath linen. We know not all beds have the usual linen on them [flat/fitted sheets & pillowcases] and for the ones that do, I have to wonder how often things are changed. The kids are also not usually what I'd describe as clean and well-groomed. The older ones don't look dirty per se most of the time, but the girls' hair usually has a just-rolled-out-of-bed look, and their outfits are usually quite rumpled. Apparently no one has the "ironing" jurisdiction. The little kids don't look as though they're washed regularly at all and I literally want to take a hot soapy washcloth to Josie Grossie practically each time she's on camera. She always looks like she's rocking a dirty, sticky face and hands. They don't even seem to use kitchen linen. Everything in this household is done the laziest and most environmentally-irresponsible way possible. More so when you consider that there are more than enough bodies to do all the chores necessary to maintaining a neat, clean and well-ordered home. I won't even go into the disposable dinnerware/flatware 3 times a day. There can be no excuse - other than laziness - for the shortcuts the Duggars employ on a daily basis.

Maybe I just happen to catch Josie's TH segments at the right(wrong) time but it seems like she spends a lot of time with her fingers in her mouth and/or nose.

[Fostersmom]

Really? Do you mind telling which state you're in? Is it Federal Constitution only, or State and Federal? That's a wonderful thing. Aaaaand now I'm trying to picture anyone in that family from Boob on down, picking up the US Constitution, reading it, and understanding any part of it... yeah, not happening. But hey, they know bankruptcy law doesn't mean you go to a bank!

(Actually, I doubt a lot of Americans could pass a test on the Constitution. My anecdotal experience tells me that hardly anyone has ever read it. But that's another whole thing...)

 

I Google search makes me think Illinois, it's the only state coming up in a search. 

[roamyn]

Passing a citizenship course would be hard pressed for ANY native citizen.

As far as bathing - maybe (for once) their self-imposed modesty rules prevent it from being shown / discussed. After all they could tempt the boys implying nude bodies.

[Joe Jitsu913]

The male Duggars also swim in jeans and t-shirts. How practical.

[cmr2014]

 

 

Does anyone know when this family bathes?  I am mostly talking about the little kids and howlers.  Most kids that age get pretty dirty during the day.  I know mine always took a bath or shower at night.  I didn't want them going to bed dirty.  Most people I knew did the same with their kids. 

I've never heard it mentioned if they get a proper bath at night.  To me, it's just part of a good bed time routine.

 

This is a particular pet peeve of mine.

 

First of all, I don't think that there is any "routine" in the Duggar household. I don't think that there is such a thing as "dinner time," or "bath time," or "story time," or "bed time." I think that those kids just wander around that house most of the day, and then crawl into bed at night fully dressed -- it's my understanding that even the smallest children stay up quite late.

 

In the earliest specials when they were still in the small house, I think there was a schedule for baths. Everyone got one or two a week. I think that the older children just don't have a habit of regular bathing, although I think that the older girls began to develop some self-awareness as they became teenagers and made some effort in their grooming.

 

But, yeah, to me, the younger kids never look clean, their hair is never combed, and their clothes don't fit and are often inappropriate for the activity/weather.

[kaleidoscope]

It is Illinois that requires the US Constitution test.  At one time, all teachers also had to pass a Constitution test in order to be certified.  My daughter is a special education teacher and her students struggle like crazy preparing for that test each year.  Wouldn't it be nice if Jim Bob had to pass it to run for office!!?

Edited March 29, 2015 by kaleidoscope

[TomServo]

I had to take a U.S. Constitution test in 8th and 11th grades and in 8th we had to memorize the Preamble.  But I don't know if they still do that.

 

Arkansas does require home-educated students to take standardized tests.  Failure to take the tests can result in being charged with truancy, but the scores are for information purposes only.  As far as I know, there are no major consequences if your scores come back below grade level.

 

Most veteran homeschool parents advise AGAINST getting a GED.  If you have a diploma, you don't need it to get into college or the military and many employers and often the military will look at a GED as a mark against you in comparison to a traditional high school graduate.  A GED is viewed as failure to complete the classes--you get lumped in with all the people who dropped out in 8th grade even if you did all the work.  A diploma from the School of Mom and Dad along with a transcript of your coursework and a few test scores will get you into a lot of places more easily than a GED.  My guess is that the Duggars started out having their kids sit for the GED, and then after they got some experience under their belts, they realized it wasn't advantageous and stopped.

[Mrsjumbo]

It is Illinois that requires the US Constitution test. At one time, all teachers also had to pass a Constitution test in order to be certified. My daughter is a special education teacher and her students struggle like crazy preparing for that test each year. Wouldn't it be nice if Jim Bob had to pass it to run for office!!?

That's pretty ridiculous to expect special needs kids to pass the test! Some kids simply don't have the capacity.

[mbutterfly]

Hm. I think I'll re-read Anne of Green Gables. What a great series.

I have the series on my kindle. I think I got it for free or very little. I often turn to it when I'm in a bit of a time of grown up stress. It is lovely. 

[3girlsforus]

I had to take a U.S. Constitution test in 8th and 11th grades and in 8th we had to memorize the Preamble.  But I don't know if they still do that.

 

Arkansas does require home-educated students to take standardized tests.  Failure to take the tests can result in being charged with truancy, but the scores are for information purposes only.  As far as I know, there are no major consequences if your scores come back below grade level.

 

Most veteran homeschool parents advise AGAINST getting a GED.  If you have a diploma, you don't need it to get into college or the military and many employers and often the military will look at a GED as a mark against you in comparison to a traditional high school graduate.  A GED is viewed as failure to complete the classes--you get lumped in with all the people who dropped out in 8th grade even if you did all the work.  A diploma from the School of Mom and Dad along with a transcript of your coursework and a few test scores will get you into a lot of places more easily than a GED.  My guess is that the Duggars started out having their kids sit for the GED, and then after they got some experience under their belts, they realized it wasn't advantageous and stopped.

 

Here the thing though... in schools there are no major consequences for being below grade level either. There are bound to be kids who aren't above grade level. It requires consistent and significant below level performance before something happens. Same with homeschooling. In our state you must test each year and be above the 30% mark (in other words you must test better than 30% of the other kids taking the test). This is actually a higher standard than they put on school students. If the student is below you have a year to improve it and then test again. After that the school system can step in. Of course for everyone I know their standards are far higher than that. 

 

Oh and I require that my kids read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers and the Declaration (as well as some memory work from both the Constitution and Declaration). And that is a typical assignment for a homeschooler. 

Edited March 29, 2015 by 3girlsforus

[Barb23]

Here the thing though... in schools there are no major consequences for being below grade level either. There are bound to be kids who aren't above grade level. It requires consistent and significant below level performance before something happens. Same with homeschooling. In our state you must test each year and be above the 30% mark (in other words you must test better than 30% of the other kids taking the test). This is actually a higher standard than they put on school students. If the student is below you have a year to improve it and then test again. After that the school system can step in. Of course for everyone I know their standards are far higher than that. 

 

Oh and I require that my kids read the Constitution, the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalist Papers and the Declaration (as well as some memory work from both the Constitution and Declaration). And that is a typical assignment for a homeschooler.

Great for you!! I'm sure most of the Duggar kids don't even know what the Constitution or Declaration of Ind are. (Mr Barb23, a history major & lover would have a coronary.) I couldn't get over that one of the Howlers didn't even know what mold was when they were at the Benessa house. He was asking a lot of questions & I'm sure they didn't do any follow up research on it when they got home. Just like when Boob said moss was God's carpet (or something like that.) Maybe mold is Satan's carpet.

[lookeyloo]

http://www.adeq.state.ar.us/ftproot/Pub/WebDatabases/PermitsOnline/Air/2278-A-REG315.pdf

 

What in the world is this?  I was looking for the address and came upon this.  

[GEML]

One thing it tells us - John David doesn't have his own email address. Unless a 25 year old virgin who had never given away pieces of his heart would choose "duggardad" as his email address.

[JoanArc]

Yeah, Daddy's running everything. JD might be the 'owner' but Jim Bob's his silent partner.

[3girlsforus]

One thing it tells us - John David doesn't have his own email address. Unless a 25 year old virgin who had never given away pieces of his heart would choose "duggardad" as his email address.

 

Sometimes things are just so wrong I don't know why I bother to say they are wrong. Seriously... a 25 year old without his own email address is just disturbing.

[GEML]

It means he's not a real businessman. They can talk the talk, but if Daddy filters his communications because access to a computer might be too tempting, it also means Daddy is likely handling the computerized accounting. And that's not actually a businessman, that's someone who works for hire. And that's fine - but let's not pretend otherwise.

[Wellfleet]

It means he's not a real businessman. They can talk the talk, but if Daddy filters his communications because access to a computer might be too tempting, it also means Daddy is likely handling the computerized accounting. And that's not actually a businessman, that's someone who works for hire. And that's fine - but let's not pretend otherwise.

 

I wonder if Boob would be monitoring everything if John-David was married? IMO, he doesn't consider any of his children adults until they're married - and I have to say I'm not all that convinced he thinks it even then. Something tells me he'll overseeing everything, and making all the really important decisions, for as long as he's able.

[CakeLeigh]

http://www.adeq.state.ar.us/ftproot/Pub/WebDatabases/PermitsOnline/Air/2278-A-REG315.pdf

 

What in the world is this?  I was looking for the address and came upon this.  

It's an air permit application and air permit.  Not sure why he would list that address for the burner... Isn't that Jill and Derrick's house?  And wonder what JD is doing with the burner?  Doesn't he have a towing business?

 

Edited:  It's to clear wood debris on the property.  But why would it be registered to JD?  Doesn't the house belong to JB?

 

Edited again:  As a former air pollution control engineer, I'm really impressed that the Duggars filed for the permit in the first place... I bet a lot of people wouldn't even realize they would need an air permit in that situation.

Edited March 29, 2015 by CakeLeigh

[3girlsforus]

The permit is for a registration that expired in 2013 so the whole thing is old. I'm not sure what you need with an air permit but if that address is Jill and Derick's house they weren't living there at the time this registration was applied for.

[shipmate]

I wonder if Boob would be monitoring everything if John-David was married? IMO, he doesn't consider any of his children adults until they're married - and I have to say I'm not all that convinced he thinks it even then. Something tells me he'll overseeing everything, and making all the really important decisions, for as long as he's able.

This makes me think jimBob as a modern day fundie Joseph Kennedy The parallels are crazy!

[JoanArc]

Joseph Kennedy had successful kids. The Duggars, no so much.

[GEML]

I don't know the ins and outs, but I believe John David owns property in the same vicinity where Jill and Derick now live, so it might be for that property.

But I'm also wondering if John David actually owns anything at all or if things are only placed in his name because it's better to do so for tax purposes.

[Wellfleet]

Joseph Kennedy had successful kids. The Duggars, no so much.

 

Joe gave all his children the finest educations money could buy - both girls and boys. He encouraged them all to read and travel. He let them date and choose their own spouses [and as far as we know, had zero creepy involvement in their "personal" lives]. Most importantly, he told each of them they could do and be anything they wanted. Other than both being wealthy and controlling [and news flash, Boob wins the controlling contest] I guess I don't see many parallels between old Joe and Boob at all. Not that Joe was perfect - far from it. I will hand Boob one thing - I doubt he ever cheated on Me-chelle. But then I also doubt he ever had any opportunity...

Edited March 30, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Gianthambeast]

Jim Blob is the Deliverance version of Joe Kennedy.

[JoanArc]

Jim Bob would also happily lobotomize a disobedient daughter!

[3girlsforus]

I don't know the ins and outs, but I believe John David owns property in the same vicinity where Jill and Derick now live, so it might be for that property.

But I'm also wondering if John David actually owns anything at all or if things are only placed in his name because it's better to do so for tax purposes.

I suspect you are right. It's all for tax purposes and John David is just a pawn in whatever JimBob wants to do. I also suspect it comes in handy to have all this stuff in JD's name so he can say 'JD owns X business' or whatever other reality he wants to spin. But the actual reality is that JimBob owns a bunch of stuff and his grown son's job is to run around and do what Daddy says. 

Edited March 30, 2015 by 3girlsforus

[Wellfleet]

Jim Blob is the Deliverance version of Joe Kennedy.

 

And Me-chelle is the one who whispers under her breath about Ben: "He shore has got a purty mouth..."  Eew-ick.

[Mrsjumbo]

I think it's more fun to imagine JD having an illegitimate child- @duggardad indeed! But no, even I can't imagine that. You know J'Boob is behind it all.

[frenchtoast]

I know we're talking about how the kids compare to others, but it's starting to stray a bit too much. Let's try to keep this about the kids themselves and Grandma. There is a topic for the parenting and how they were raised that should the conversation flow to that can be moved there.  Thanks!

[Sew Sumi]

The permit is for a registration that expired in 2013 so the whole thing is old. I'm not sure what you need with an air permit but if that address is Jill and Derick's house they weren't living there at the time this registration was applied for.

This could also be JD's house, which is either right next door to, or just down the road from Chez Dullard. He was shown doing burns on his property eons ago on the show. I imagine the two are connected, and why JD lists himself as the "owner." It is, after all, his property. And even if this was the McMansion land, JD still has the "business" albeit under Boob's watchful eye. 

[msblossom]

This could also be JD's house, which is either right next door to, or just down the road from Chez Dullard. He was shown doing burns on his property eons ago on the show. I imagine the two are connected, and why JD lists himself as the "owner." It is, after all, his property. And even if this was the McMansion land, JD still has the "business" albeit under Boob's watchful eye.

I think you're right, Sew Sumi. I believe it's JD's (aka JB's) http://www.zillow.com/homedetails/5723-W-Stoney-Brook-Rd-Rogers-AR-72758/70614500_zpid/

[3girlsforus]

I'm surprised JimBob doesn't just buy up a cul-de-sac (or a whole block) a la Kody Brown and make a Duggar compound.

[Gemma Violet]

I'm surprised JimBob doesn't just buy up a cul-de-sac (or a whole block) a la Kody Brown and make a Duggar compound.

 

He probably would have done it if he had thought of it before building the big house.  I can't believed he missed that prime opportunity for more control.

 

BTW, I'm pretty sure the Osmonds' dad built a compound in the '70s when the children started to get married and have kids.  

[GinnyLee]

 How can kids who've never read a work of literature graduate from high school? 

 

I've been wondering about that for 25 years. It almost seems unfair that some of fellow classmates got the same diploma I did. I know I earned mine all while playing 2 sports. I'm not a genius at all but even I could pull a modest 3.2 gpa and I ranked about 35th/170 which means that there were ALOT of morons behind me. 

Many of them turned in their books at the end of the year still unopened. WTF??? Sorry folks, but I'm going to play devil's advocate here and say that the Duggar's probably aren't any dumber than the average C+ American school student.

[Ljohnson1987]

Duggars' don't care that their kids have no reading or math skills. All that matters, is that they have a servant's heart and are able to whore themselves out, but call it ministering others.

[GinnyLee]

  

That is a great idea about them building a doll house. TLC are you paying attention?

I guess for obvious reasons, Barbies are out for the girls. Especially when they end up naked, laying in a box somewhere. I loved playing Barbies growing up. My friend's grandma showed us all different ways of turning little boxes & things into furnishings for Barbie. Such nice memories.....

Don't they get GEDs & not actual high school diplomas? There is no way they could pass the tests our high schoolers take here in Maryland to graduate.

 

I've heard GED's are not that easy. Quite intensive.

[GinnyLee]

I don't disagree with any of this but I would think the Arkansas Board of Education already knows as much as we do.  The Duggars are not exactly keeping it secret.

 

I agree. The Duggars are in the media all the time so I'm sure they're following Arkansas homeschooling laws otherwise I think the state would be right in their face. (If this is off topic please feel free to move it to the correct section.)

[trimthatfat]

I have a HS diploma so I've never personally taken a GED test, but from what a friend told me, it is not an easy exam to pass and it involves critical reading skills. I certainly don't look down on those with GEDs, so hats off to any of the Duggar children who have successfully passed.

[Sew Sumi]

I still wonder how they're getting around the teacher issue. Mechelle still supposedly teaches the littles DRT lessons until 3rd grade when they're switched to the computer program, although I'm not sure how accurate that is these days. Amara Query (oldest Query daughter, late 20's, one of Jessa's bridesmaids) supposedly handles everything else now. Now, in AR, the law happens to be that the only teachers allowed to homeschool are parents, legal guardians, or PAID teachers. I assume that by "teachers," they mean someone with certification, not just someone off the street that the parents pay. However, if the latter is true, I guess that unqualified Gothardite Amara Query is okay. The family has been IBLP for a long time; Boob kind of took them in after the father died, maybe 10 years ago (might have been even longer than that)? No college for Amara, who would have been the only one old enough at the time. So no, she can't be a certified teacher, but Boob could be paying her a nominal sum (his default) to "teach" his older kids. 

[Wellfleet]

I have a HS diploma so I've never personally taken a GED test, but from what a friend told me, it is not an easy exam to pass and it involves critical reading skills. I certainly don't look down on those with GEDs, so hats off to any of the Duggar children who have successfully passed.

 

Very true. The GED, at least in my state - New York, is no walk in the park. I helped my Mom prepare for hers in the 70s during my senior year in high school, and I was very glad all the material was so fresh for me, because it was definitely not your basic can-you-spell-your-own-name type of test. Mom took it the Summer after I finished my first year in college, and we were all thrilled when she got the letter stating she passed. I'm actually a little more impressed by people who earn educational credentials in this manner. When I was in high school and college, school [aside from 20 hours a week at a work-study job] was all I did. But virtually no one who studies at night is solely "going to school." Most are working [full or part] and/or running a household at the same time. Someone who can earn a GED/college degree at night is worthy of our respect, and someone who can do it summa cum laude, while also working and raising a family, deserves undying respect. Now THAT is an accomplishment.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Wellfleet

[Literata]

 

Amara Query (oldest Query daughter, late 20's, one of Jessa's bridesmaids

Can't JD court her? Not to be rude, but neither seems to be in a position to be terribly choosy. 

[Hpmec]

While it's true that many kids do the minimum in school and may only rarely open a book, at least they are being exposed to literature, history, science etc. simply by being present in a classroom or in a homeschool environment dedicated to learning. A kid can't help but learn something if the teacher is talking about a poem by Poe, a novel by Hemingway, an historical event, or a scientific discovery. The Duggars are deliberately keeping their kids from learning much of anything that isn't directly related to the Bible. Jill couldn't even name a single nursery rhyme when asked recently in a tv interview. They are doing a huge disservice to their kids by not preparing them for a future that more than likely will not include income from a tv show.

Edited March 30, 2015 by Hpmec

[Adeejay]

 I certainly don't look down on those with GEDs, so hats off to any of the Duggar children who have successfully passed.

 

From what I understand, folks keep calling Child Protective Services on the Duggars, just like they do with Kate Gosselin, so they are under intense pressure to comply with the law. 

[GEML]

After the Amish Supreme Court case in the 1970's which opened up homeschooling for religious regions, I'm sure that if someone like Jim Bob pushed the State of Arkansas on the idea that a " paid teacher" needed to be a certified teacher the state of AR would lose. After all, the Supreme Court upheld that a young Amish woman with only an Amish education up to 8th grade would be an acceptable teacher for Amish schools. As long as Jim Bob pays Amara Query something and she declares it on her taxes, she's a paid teacher.