Jill, Derick & the Kids: Moving On!!

[JennyMominFL]

It's been a long time since I've done any reading about church history, but from what I remember, Catholics were the ORIGINAL Christians. Martin Luther and the Reformation created Protestantism ["protest" - get it?] and Henry VIII broke away from the [Catholic] Pope to create the Anglican/Episcopal branch. Duggars - any rebuttal?

 

PS - if this needs to be moved to another thread, sorry and please do so. I still don't know how to do that.

Yes, but even those two,( Luther and Henry)  stayed pretty darned Catholic. Luther wanted the church to reform so they excommunicated him.. Henry wanted to stay Catholic but wanted a divorce. He declared himself the head of the Church, which was at that time Catholic in every way but having the pope as leader... It wasn't until the era of Elizabeth that the COE became less Catholic and, it wasn't until James that if was really fully Protestant. 

  There were other Non -Catholic movements around from day one, pretty much but they were always quite brutally put down, so, in essence Catholicism was all there was until the 1500's.

[Churchhoney]

As a Catholic I have met Christians who didn't think I was truly a Christian because they believed Catholics worship Mary and pray to statues.  This seems to be a common belief among the more fervent fundamentalists.  I don't know if Jill and Derek hold this opinion but I would not be surprised.

 

All the Duggs and Seewalds are likely to, I think. I don't think we've seen anythnig specifically from J and D that state this, but we certainly have from others, including others on those Duggar mission trips, I think. It underlies the group thinking in the groups they've all belonged to, I'm pretty sure. Not that means everybody actually holds to it.

 

The thing is, they have to come up with some reason why theirs is the only true form of Christianity, so they pump whatever they've got, dumb as it may be to anybody with half a brain.

[Aja]

As a Catholic I have met Christians who didn't think I was truly a Christian because they believed Catholics worship Mary and pray to statues.  

Yeah, I've heard that too. There is no such thing as a divine authority on Earth! That's idolatry! Now if you'll excuse me, my hair is not going to home-perm itself into Gothardesque glory.

[louannems]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS1G3vrszY/

Jill posts a new picture of Izzy, same day as Jessa's post of Fish.

[Sew Sumi]

Derick also posted a couple pics of Izzy. One was Derick and Izzy in colorful wigs and there was another pickle pic. I don't think I can copy/paste Derick's posts here anymore since he went private. I do wonder who posted first. I'm now #blessablocked, so I can't get a timestamp for her. Dillard pics went up around 5pm central (same time in Guatemala as in AR). 

Edited January 9, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[louannems]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS4wL1mCdM/

There you are!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS5dK4mCeo/

[Sew Sumi]

But can non-followers see them? 

[louannems]

I'm not a follower, nor do I have an Instagram account.

[Sew Sumi]

I guess that means Derick went back to being public, because you can't see private accounts (I have mine set up that way) unless someone requests to follow, or they're grandfathered in by already being a follower. 

[Absolom]

Yes, Derick's account is public again.

[Vermicious Knid]

I don't usually hang out in this thread, but the Copts, the Egyptian Church, are the real original Christians. They are one of the sects that control the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and count their founding from Mark in the First Century. That most people have never heard of them doesn't invalidate the fact they are the oldest Christian tradition.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Coptic-Christianity.html

 

As a non-Christian, I was taught the basic definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the son of God. Period.

 

[kokapetl]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS1G3vrszY/

Jill posts a new picture of Izzy, same day as Jessa's post of Fish.

So many buttons.

[JennyMominFL]

I don't usually hang out in this thread, but the Copts, the Egyptian Church, are the real original Christians. They are one of the sects that control the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and count their founding from Mark in the First Century. That most people have never heard of them doesn't invalidate the fact they are the oldest Christian tradition.

http://www.gotquestions.org/Coptic-Christianity.html

 

As a non-Christian, I was taught the basic definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the son of God. Period.

This is true.However, the Copts were in full communion with the Catholic church until the Council of Chalcedon in 451. This was even the time period before the Catholic Church split into Roman Catholic and  Eastern Orthodox in the eleventh century. So they were straight  Catholic until 451

 Not a Christian, but I was raised one and Am close to a degree in History and Anthropology

[BradandJanet]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS4wL1mCdM/

 

 

Jesus Christ Superstar. Dull Derick's photo took me right back to the 1970s. Rock on. 

Edited January 9, 2016 by BradandJanet

[JenCarroll]

 As a non-Christian, I was taught the basic definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the son of God. Period.

I thought the resurrection was the key thing.

[Mrs. P.]

As a non-Christian, I was taught the basic definition of a Christian is someone who accepts Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the son of God. Period.

I think the fundamentalists add another component to this: One must accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Son of God, but also as one's personal savior. Without the latter, one is not truly a Christian. Thus, the Dillard's belief that Catholics must be taught how to be 'saved.'

[SomePity1066]

The picture of Izzy posted for his 9-month milestone is adorable, though I don't understand the diaper situation. I'm not a baby person, so is it a "thing" nowadays for diapers to look like they were made by the costume designer for Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome ? Either way, he's a cute kid. 

 

Too bad Jill had to ruin the happy ambiance by then posting yet another picture of a crying, miserable baby. Why do you do that, Jill ? WHY ? You'd think she'd learned her lesson after the kerfuffle over SwaddleGate and #NoBabyProofing hitting mainstream media, but nope ! 

 

I guess her upbringing in a family that thrives on proffering their childrens' suffering as entertainment has rendered her unable to recognize the difference between cute and cruel. 

[DangerousMinds]

I think the fundamentalists add another component to this: One must accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Son of God, but also as one's personal savior. Without the latter, one is not truly a Christian. Thus, the Dillard's belief that Catholics must be taught how to be 'saved.'

Will they be able to explain that mess in Spanish? And what "prayer" do fundies pray?

[CofCinci]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS1G3vrszY/

Jill posts a new picture of Izzy, same day as Jessa's post of Fish.

Very specific bruise on Izzy.

[Lukeysboat]

Very specific bruise on Izzy.

Looks like a typical baby bruise to me. A nine-month-old may be rolling over, crawling around, pulling to a stand, and possibly taking tentative steps.

[Fosca]

Jesus Christ Superstar. Dull Derick's photo took me right back to the 1970s. Rock on.

It's much more GODSPELL to me. Complete with clown wig.

[kokapetl]

Very specific bruise on Izzy.

Might be a bug bite, its not really big enough for something an adult hand could do.

Edited January 9, 2016 by Kokapetl

[kokapetl]

https://www.instagram.com/p/BAS4wL1mCdM/

Reminds me of

But George Bush on The Simpsons "explained (his) hair". The Dullards don't. The two pics of Izzy being swaddled like a burrito were separated by a chaste smooch kiss, and this:

And none of any of these had captions that explained what the hell we're looking at.

[Abstract]

The picture of Izzy posted for his 9-month milestone is adorable, though I don't understand the diaper situation. I'm not a baby person, so is it a "thing" nowadays for diapers to look like they were made by the costume designer for Mad Max: Beyond Thunderdome ? Either way, he's a cute kid.

Yes, that's a trendy cloth diaper.

[jschoolgirl]

Jill looks to have a blessing bump in that photo.

[Mollie]

Jesus Christ Superstar. Dull Derick's photo took me right back to the 1970s. Rock on. 

He looks just like Ringo Star in the 1970s.

[Churchhoney]

Reminds me of

But George Bush on The Simpsons "explained (his) hair". The Dullards don't. The two pics of Izzy being swaddled like a burrito were separated by a chaste smooch kiss, and this:

 

And none of any of these had captions that explained what the hell we're looking at.

 

Well ... looks to me like they were just joking around. Entertaining themselves and maybe hoping to entertain on social media with silly pictures? Since they haven't started any wars or anything they probably have less need than cartoon GB did to justify his lack of seriousness, right? :  )

Edited January 9, 2016 by Churchhoney

[truthtalk2014]

Is there anyone that believes Jill is actually using cloth diapers?  Not me.  That cover was probably covering a disposable.  Not that I care one way or the other.  

 

I agree that she does appear to have a blessing bump in the photo.  

[MarysWetBar]

Reminds me of

But George Bush on The Simpsons "explained (his) hair". The Dullards don't. The two pics of Izzy being swaddled like a burrito were separated by a chaste smooch kiss, and this:

And none of any of these had captions that explained what the hell we're looking at.

Knocked. Up.✔

[NewDigs]

.

I think the fundamentalists add another component to this: One must accept Jesus Christ as the Messiah and the Son of God, but also as one's personal savior. Without the latter, one is not truly a Christian. Thus, the Dillard's belief that Catholics must be taught how to be 'saved.'

Will they be able to explain that mess in Spanish? And what "prayer" do fundies pray?

Goodness gracious, they can explain it with dance!!!! Though it's going to be one heckuvan interpretative dance.

Wonder if they dragged those goofy wigs down in their luggage. Could be they're going to be jesus-rainbows in their little dance. Or something.

Maybe the pic with the leaf is them saying, Look what we found under a cabbage leaf?

Other than that I got nuthin'.

[JoanArc]

VBAC with no/minimal prenatal care, in the thrid world. Jill, you fuckin' idiot.

[kokapetl]

Knocked. Up.✔

That picture is from 7 November. They leave all the metadata in the photos on their website.

[Tabbygirl521]

I like to see DeRick looking like a normal dad, goofing around with his critter. I am typing this as my 15-month-old twin grandsons (and their grandpa) are napping, and I know when they wake up, they will start pouring balls on their heads, wearing boxes as hats, etc. it all looks like fun and games to me. But DeRick doesn't usually bug me anyway.

[JoanArc]

That picture is from 7 November. They leave all the metadata in the photos on their website.

She must be huge now.

[Missy Vixen]

Is that a real game? If not, get on the phone and sell it to Mattel.

Fun fact: Pictionary was actually invented by some guys that went to my alma mater. (Bible college in Kirkland, WA.)

 

With Jilly Muffin's pincer-like grasp of pop culture, one can only imagine how proficient she'd be at Pictionary. IMHO of course.

[MarysWetBar]

That picture is from 7 November. They leave all the metadata in the photos on their website.

Really?? Maybe she just has really bad bounce back ability then. I'm not body shaming her. I just remember being her age with a body that bounced back quicker. Following pregnancies. .not so much. .lol

[SomePity1066]

Fun fact: Pictionary was actually invented by some guys that went to my alma mater. (Bible college in Kirkland, WA.)

 

With Jilly Muffin's pincer-like grasp of pop culture, one can only imagine how proficient she'd be at Pictionary. IMHO of course.

I can only imagine the total silence, zero-gravity, suffocatingly dense atmosphere at the DuggarDome if they tried to play REAL Pictionary. I'm envisioning blank, panicked stares all around, uncomfortable squirming, and tense, forced smiles as they all start to realize that they don't know anything. ANYTHING. 

 

I wonder, if you asked them, or at least the older teenagers and adults, what the Titanic was, how many could clearly identify it ? I'll accept either the actual historical event OR the movie here ! Do you think they know what Mount Rushmore is ? The Grand Canyon ? The Pentagon ? Could they articulate any version of things from the  moon landing, the Civil War, the Great Depression ?  I could go on for PAGES...

 

Most likely they'd just make their own version of the game - all the clues would be babies, broomball, babies, Stinkbus, babies, denim skirt, babies, hairspray, babies, Starbucks, babies, and babies. 

 

Seriously, through the Law of Diminishing Returns, the J-Crew are less educated and culturally aware than JB and Michelle, with their fancy high schoolin' ways, and Jill, perhaps because she was the Favored Daughter, seems to be the dimmest of the dim. She doesn't seem like she's... connecting with her surroundings or her own thoughts when she talks. Her eyes are constantly searching, like the answer she's looking for is written on the walls of the room she's sitting in. 

 

Hmmm. Maybe it's why all the families in the Duggar clan have all those sappy, insipid quotes and platitudes plastered all over their houses...

 

So they have something to say. 

[louannems]

Very specific bruise on Izzy.

Fun fact: Pictionary was actually invented by some guys that went to my alma mater. (Bible college in Kirkland, WA.)

With Jilly Muffin's pincer-like grasp of pop culture, one can only imagine how proficient she'd be at Pictionary. IMHO of course.

Sorry to be off-topic, but I just have to tell Missy Vixen that I lived a block away from your Northwest Bible college for a dozen years! My sister graduated from there, as did her husband!

I thought Izzy's mark on his right thigh was a birthmark.

Edited January 10, 2016 by louannems

[Fuzzysox]

Looks like a typical baby bruise to me. A nine-month-old may be rolling over, crawling around, pulling to a stand, and possibly taking tentative steps.

He is really fair he he probably buises easily.

[queenanne]

Yeah, I thought maybe a teeny blood vessel burst while he was moving around/doing otherwise perfectly benign things.  I will get said bruises sometimes, possibly from exercise, haven't bothered to ask my doctor because I've had other women at the gym casually say "oh yeah, I get those too".  Though I don't know if it's usual for someone or something as small as a baby.

[Vermicious Knid]

*Waves to JennyMominFL*

 

BA in Anthropology with minor in history, and almost an MS but I didn't finish my thesis. One of the things I learned in grad school is that the Catholic Church was so successful in Meso America and South America because they could just swap in a saint for a local deity. Many people are actually practicing a combination of Catholicism and indigenous traditions. Although they will tell you they're good Catholics. I did a paper on it and my professor in that class happened to specialize in the Quiche Maya and said that was what he had observed.

[becca3891]

Begging to differ from the referenced pastor: there is never a GOOD time to witness, unless requested by the individual. Unrequested 'witnessing ' feels to the witnessees as religion being forcefully shoved down their throats to the point of asphyxia. The unrequested, unwelcome 'witnessing' is all about the WITNESS feeling holy vs. genuine care giving to the witnessee - it is completely self serving.

Witnessing isn't actually self serving, not to fundy Christians who actually care about other people. You have to remember that to fundamentalists, the concept of eternal torture for unbelievers is reality. (You have to have been born into this to understand it fully, I think.) Actually, it's the ones who "witness" that I respect the most. They're the only non-hypocritical ones. Wouldn't any of us, if we saw a person headed straight for what we knew to be a land mine, run with all our strength to warn and stop them? This is how the fervent fundies feel about witnessing and all the OTHER ones, who believe the majority who haven't prayed the sinner's prayer will be writhing in agony for eternity, and yet don't "witness" at all, are lazy, selfish hypocrites.

Please note that I am as annoyed as anyone by witnessing! I don't believe in hell or any of it. But I used to, and know many people who still sincerely do.

Edited January 10, 2016 by becca3891

[Churchhoney]

Witnessing isn't actually self serving, not to fundy Christians who actually care about other people. You have to remember that to fundamentalists, the concept of eternal torture for unbelievers is reality. (You have to have been born into this to understand it fully, I think.) Actually, it's the ones who "witness" that I respect the most. They're the only non-hypocritical ones. Wouldn't any of us, if we saw a person headed straight for what we knew to be a land mine, run with all our strength to warn and stop them? This is how the fervent fundies feel about witnessing and all the OTHER ones, who believe the majority who haven't prayed the sinner's prayer will be writhing in agony for eternity, and yet don't "witness" at all, are lazy, selfish hypocrites.

Please note that I am as annoyed as anyone by witnessing! I don't believe in hell or any of it. But I used to, and know many people who still sincerely do.

Perfectly explained! Thank you.

[SomePity1066]

The thing is, with Jill and Derick - what is it, exactly, that makes them so sure, so superior, so all-knowing, that *their* God, their religion (CULT !), is "better" than anyone else's ? That their way is the ONLY way ? NOT damned if you do, but surely damned if you don't, so to speak...

Anyone - and I mean ANYONE - can claim that they are a member of the one and only "true" faith and then proceed to condemn everyone else to eternal Hellfire and dalmations (tee-hee), but who would really know ? Without verified, documented evidence (pics or it didn't happen, y'all !) of one God or another going all badass on the evil and saving the righteous and just, how would anyone know they backed the right horse ???

I think that their brand of missioncation/conversion attempts is nothing more than a pseudo-religious game version of "My dad can beat up YOUR dad !", and it's detrimental - even harmful - to the people they're purportedly "ministering" to.

They want to "save souls" in a dangerous, violent, pitiably impoverished country with drugs problems, rampant unemployment, horrifying infant mortality, bad water, intermittent, undependable electrical power, street thugs, and a government that is rife with corruption.

How about saving a *life* before you save a soul ?

They could have done SO much more if they'd just stayed in Arkansas and sent the money to a legitimate charity. JillyMuffyn could have stayed put to make bad dinners for Derick when he came home from his job at Walmart while changing Izzy into a dozen different outfits for her Instagram account while people like the Red Cross and Doctors Without Borders addressed the REAL problems in Guatemala.

Meh.

[queenanne]

The thing is, with Jill and Derick - what is it, exactly, that makes them so sure, so superior, so all-knowing, that *their* God, their religion (CULT !), is "better" than anyone else's ? That their way is the ONLY way ? NOT damned if you do, but surely damned if you don't, so to speak...

Because the Bible tells them so. John 14:6, what we are told are the words of Christ: "No man comes to the Father but through me."

Which circles back through the prior posts for us, where the only "true Christian" is seen as, the one who has come to believe Christian conversion, takes place by "going through Christ". Which means, believing and acknowledging the divinity of God made man through Christ, that the whole of the BIble's version of the story of Jesus-on-earth is true, and that one, if not the, prime commission of Jesus given while on earth, was to make the other sworn Christians "fishers after souls" (Matthew 4:19, which the NIV has jazzed up to say "Come, follow me," Jesus said, "and I will send you out to fish for people.")

Edited January 10, 2016 by queenanne

[JennyMominFL]

*Waves to JennyMominFL*

 

BA in Anthropology with minor in history, and almost an MS but I didn't finish my thesis. One of the things I learned in grad school is that the Catholic Church was so successful in Meso America and South America because they could just swap in a saint for a local deity. Many people are actually practicing a combination of Catholicism and indigenous traditions. Although they will tell you they're good Catholics. I did a paper on it and my professor in that class happened to specialize in the Quiche Maya and said that was what he had observed.

*Waves to JennyMominFL*

 

BA in Anthropology with minor in history, and almost an MS but I didn't finish my thesis. One of the things I learned in grad school is that the Catholic Church was so successful in Meso America and South America because they could just swap in a saint for a local deity. Many people are actually practicing a combination of Catholicism and indigenous traditions. Although they will tell you they're good Catholics. I did a paper on it and my professor in that class happened to specialize in the Quiche Maya and said that was what he had observed.

We swapped majors lol. The funny thing is, I went to school at 43. I'll start grad school at like 47. Oh well never too late.

I believe the Catholic Chruch also did the same thing in Africa and parts of the Carribean.. They have always been great at enveloping other cultural mores.

And there is always an air of smug superiority to witnesses. and Then there is that whole "I'll pray for you" thing they like to say when you are not interested. I'm sure Jill and Jessa say that a lot.

[Churchhoney]

The thing is, with Jill and Derick - what is it, exactly, that makes them so sure, so superior, so all-knowing, that *their* God, their religion (CULT !), is "better" than anyone else's ? That their way is the ONLY way ? NOT damned if you do, but surely damned if you don't, so to speak...

.

Truly, though, I think that the only people who do do this are either cynical egomaniacs who don't actually believe it but are conducting some cult-building and grifting activities of their own ....

OR -- the category I think the Duggars generally fall into -- they are kind of fearful and insecure people who absolutely MUST be part of a group that seems cohesive. People who are terrified of being outside the herd and can't actually believe ANYTHING on their own outside of a group think, for fear of being wrong or thinking something that others might disapprove of. People like that, I believe, are the only ones who have a long-term strong attraction to these massively sure-of-themselves cults and religions.

And part of the reason they would do "mission work" like this is that they're sincerely -- though sheeplike -- committed to the beliefs and another part of the reason, I would bet, is that getting others to say they believe the same thing helps to shore them up in their own beliefs. And they feel they NEED those beliefs, because they scared and maybe kinda empty on their own.

Derick and Ben seem to me very much to be these kind of insecure, parroty, sheep types. And of course the Duggars and Anna were all rigorously trained to be that. Jim Bob, I expect, has a big chunk of the insecure fearfulness and a maybe somewhat smaller but still pretty substantial chunk of the "I wanta lead my own cult for my own greater glory" type.

[GeeGolly]

Head spinning 'round & 'round.

 

I'm just gonna stick with being a kind & thoughtful person. Amen.

Edited January 10, 2016 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

I believe the Catholic Chruch also did the same thing in Africa and parts of the Carribean.. They have always been great at enveloping other cultural mores.

The Jesuits got squelched a bit in Latin America, pulled out of some places, because they did a bit too much of it, according to the greater Church. .... Gotta love the Jesuits (in some ways, anyway)

[Wellfleet]

Truly, though, I think that the only people who do do this are either cynical egomaniacs who don't actually believe it but are conducting some cult-building and grifting activities of their own ....

OR -- the category I think the Duggars generally fall into -- they are kind of fearful and insecure people who absolutely MUST be part of a group that seems cohesive. People who are terrified of being outside the herd and can't actually believe ANYTHING on their own outside of a group think, for fear of being wrong or thinking something that others might disapprove of. People like that, I believe, are the only ones who have a long-term strong attraction to these massively sure-of-themselves cults and religions.

And part of the reason they would do "mission work" like this is that they're sincerely -- though sheeplike -- committed to the beliefs and another part of the reason, I would bet, is that getting others to say they believe the same thing helps to shore them up in their own beliefs. And they feel they NEED those beliefs, because they scared and maybe kinda empty on their own.

Derick and Ben seem to me very much to be these kind of insecure, parroty, sheep types. And of course the Duggars and Anna were all rigorously trained to be that. Jim Bob, I expect, has a big chunk of the insecure fearfulness and a maybe somewhat smaller but still pretty substantial chunk of the "I wanta lead my own cult for my own greater glory" type.

 

Completely agree with the sheep theory. Terrified of being outside of a group, of not belonging. And unless I'm mistaken, people who turn out like this as adults like were probably pretty severely "dealt with" as children [looking at you, Boob] whenever, as children, they had a "different" or independent thought or idea. I don't think JR tolerated much from Boob in the way of clever ideas, backtalk, independent ways etc. I expect his childhood was largely seen-and-not-heard. IOW, a lot of fundie parents, being sheep themselves, teach their kids to shut up and put up with whatever comes their way, girls in particular.  An ancient story, sadly.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Wellfleet