Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Oldernowiser]

That banner isn’t real, right? Please?

[Scarlett45]

Mod Announcement:

 

I understand the thread is moving very quickly as information becomes available, I am also aware that this topic can bring up strong emotions- however off topic posts belong in the Small Talk thread. If you wish to share an anecdotal story that is not primarily about Josh/Anna & the Duggars, please quote the poster you are replying to and state "taking my reply to small talk (or another appropriate thread)".

Off topic posts have been removed.

[FizzyPuff]

11 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

That banner isn’t real, right? Please?

No it’s not real. Someone just made it as a joke.

[Oldernowiser]

3 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

No it’s not real. Someone just made it as a joke.

Thank you. 

[Nysha]

9 minutes ago, FizzyPuff said:

20 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

That banner isn’t real, right? Please?

No it’s not real. Someone just made it as a joke.

It's crazy to realize that the Duggars are so cultish that few of us would be surprised if the banner was real.

[Hpmec]

3 hours ago, emmawoodhouse said:

As a headship, he's supposed to financially support his family. I don't know what kind of diligent work (® Anna) he's been doing since the car lot was shut down.

He's been diligently looking for ways to scratch his CP itch, and, most likely, in a pinch, any porn will do. More than likely also diligently continuing to seek alternative female companionship on the sly. The last thing he's interested in is supporting his family, and probably the only job he could get at this point would be as an "actor" in adult films. A real credit to his family....Diligent worker all right! 

[dariafan]

If they had a critical thinking bone in their body they would say hey maybe the way we’ve handled things into working    But they don’t. And a lot are going to suffer for their arrogance 

[hathorlive]

14 hours ago, mynextmistake said:

I think the purpose of the receiving law is to be able to punish people who gather these images and send them along to others, but don’t actually keep them on their computers? It’s probably harder to make a case for possession if something is only in your custody for a very short time and then you delete it? 

Possession is having it on your computer.  Receiving means they can show you possessed it (aka via email, file share, direct download).  That's how my AUSA explained it to me.  Possession is one thing, showing that you were actively seeking it out is another.  I can tell you that feds always want receiving over mere possession. 

[crazy8s]

58 minutes ago, Oldernowiser said:

That banner isn’t real, right? Please?

not real - I just did a quick adjustment to the one that said Justin and had his picture. I don't think we ever found out why they had a banner about praying for justin. It was pictured when he had his wisdom teeth out. Claire stated it was not made for that event, but for something before that.

Edited May 7, 2021 by crazy8s

[Hpmec]

1 hour ago, NoThyme said:

TLC is counting on a ratings boost from all of this. People will tune in to see how everyone acts, who is in the show etc. I haven't watched the show except for the Megyn interview and a few minutes here and there. I have done some reading about Gothard and their family as well as this board. I find their entire religion to be one very sick cult and the ratings is what keeps them on TV. If you are truly disgusted by Josh and the family you shouldn't watch the show anymore, no more ratings. 

The only people who count ratings wise are those the Nielsen company monitors. I have personal experience with this. Nielsen selects tv viewing families (one family per 1500 households approximately) and puts a box on their tv to monitor what they watch. Families who sign up receive small checks every few months and keep the box for two years. Most people couldn't be bothered. A Nielsen rep told me 95% of households approached for this turn them down. So a select group of Americans are the only ones determining ratings that end up affecting what everyone watches on commercial tv. So just hope that current Nielsen families have no interest in the Duggars. That's how Counting On will be cancelled. 

[winsomeone]

Won't Josh be able to spend as many hours per day as he wants at the shed on his car lot, "working?" He has full internet access there. Plus Anna and the children can spend the days there too as he has unlimited access to them?

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, doodlebug said:

Just bringing this forward from December for those who want to see some of the windowless warehouse where Anna and the kids live.

It looks okay as far as amenities and cleanliness/tidiness in the pictures.  Of course that's only within the narrow boundaries of photographs.   Wide view would reveal the lack of windows detail which would be a big nope for anybody with options.   

[3girlsforus]

6 minutes ago, hathorlive said:

Possession is having it on your computer.  Receiving means they can show you possessed it (aka via email, file share, direct download).  That's how my AUSA explained it to me.  Possession is one thing, showing that you were actively seeking it out is another.  I can tell you that feds always want receiving over mere possession. 

I would assume they want receiving over possession because it appears that receiving has a minimum sentence requirement while possession does not. Also I would imagine it’s harder for the suspect to claim it isn’t theirs if they can show how it got onto the computer/phone etc. 

[crazy8s]

Just now, winsomeone said:

Won't Josh be able to spend as many hours per day as he wants at the shed on his car lot, "working?" He has full internet access there. Plus Anna and the children can spend the days there too as he has unlimited access to them?

that car lot is permanently closed. He can't work for Jed at the other lot either because Jed would have a computer and internet access

[Minivanessa]

12 minutes ago, Hpmec said:

The only people who count ratings wise are those the Nielsen company monitors. I have personal experience with this. Nielsen selects tv viewing families (one family per 1500 households approximately) and puts a box on their tv to monitor what they watch. Families who sign up receive small checks every few months and keep the box for two years. Most people couldn't be bothered. A Nielsen rep told me 95% of households approached for this turn them down. So a select group of Americans are the only ones determining ratings that end up affecting what everyone watches on commercial tv. So just hope that current Nielsen families have no interest in the Duggars. That's how Counting On will be cancelled. 

Taking my reply to Small Talk.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Jeeves

[3 is enough]

I don’t think this has been mentioned yet, but this thread has been moving so fast I may have missed it or have some details wrong. 

There was mention of a MacBook found in Josh’s car that did not have any questionable materials on it, and discussion about the fact that the Mac software does not lend itself to the same procedures he performed on the pc in the office.

But, isn’t it possible he downloaded some of his favorite files on to thumb drives and stashed them somewhere for easy access when he was not at work?  I know the feds did a search but thumb drives are small and easy to hide.  I could totally see that happening.  

 

[Tuxcat]

4 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

I don’t think this has been mentioned yet, but this thread has been moving so fast I may have missed it or have some details wrong. 

There was mention of a MacBook found in Josh’s car that did not have any questionable materials on it, and discussion about the fact that the Mac software does not lend itself to the same procedures he performed on the pc in the office.

But, isn’t it possible he downloaded some of his favorite files on to thumb drives and stashed them somewhere for easy access when he was not at work?  I know the feds did a search but thumb drives are small and easy to hide.  I could totally see that happening.  

 

Thinking forensics could see if he exported files onto portable drives maybe? The MacBook wasn't partitioned and didn't have images however they used the MacBook and the phone (there were linked to each other)  to tie his location (text messages et cetera)  to the timing of the downloads on the HP.  

[Scarlett45]

Mod Announcement:

The thread is being locked again given the rampant number of Off Topic posts, violation of the politics policy and uncivil behavior. If you have questions please PM @deaja and @Scarlett45 directly. 

 

 

[JustRosie]

I have a question. If there were no minor children living in Josh/Anna’s home, would he have been allowed to go back home upon release or would he still have been forced to live with  3rd party custodian?  Thx. 

[Tuxcat]

15 minutes ago, Namaste said:

I have a question. If there were no minor children living in Josh/Anna’s home, would he have been allowed to go back home upon release or would he still have been forced to live with  3rd party custodian?  Thx. 

Not sure. Probably if his home was not on the property where there are minors.

Interestingly the actual court order does not specify that Anna must be present when he's with his children. It says he must be "supervised" but doesn't say by whom.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Tuxcat

[BitterApple]

54 minutes ago, Namaste said:

I have a question. If there were no minor children living in Josh/Anna’s home, would he have been allowed to go back home upon release or would he still have been forced to live with  3rd party custodian?  Thx. 

I don't think so because the warehouse is on TTH property and there's still swarms of minors everywhere.

[Monkeyrocks]

I know around here there’s a rule that sex offenders can’t live within so many feet of a school/playground/day care, etc. I wonder if the compound would be considered in a similar way just because of how many minors are on it? 
 

i absolutely think Anna has been brainwashed for years, and I know what it’s like to be an abused wife, so I do have some sympathy.

That said, both my grandmother and I got out when our then- spouses went after our kid. If Anna won’t get out, having seen that Josh doesn’t have the familial boundaries that some molesters seem to have, I would think she’s incapable of protecting them, and would hope the children would be placed with someone else. Not JB and Michelle, since they’re clearly incapable of protecting their kids, but maybe Jill, JD, etc

[Gemma Violet]

30 minutes ago, Monkeyrocks said:

I would think she’s incapable of protecting them, and would hope the children would be placed with someone else. Not JB and Michelle, since they’re clearly incapable of protecting their kids, but maybe Jill, JD, etc

I hope Jill is never considered to take on such a task.  Jill would be helping Josh if she takes care of his kids.  Why should she upend her life for him?  There are lots of other Duggars who are not Josh's victims.  Let them do it.

Edited May 8, 2021 by Gemma Violet

[libgirl2]

1 minute ago, Gemma Violet said:

I hope Jill is never considered to take on such a task.  Jill would be helping Josh if she takes care of his kids.  Why should she upend her life for him?  There are lots of other Duggars that are not Josh's victims.  Let them do it.

Let Anna's family do it..... they sold her to him to begin with. 

[3 is enough]

I don’t think any of Josh’s victims should be expected to care for his children.  Of course his kids are innocent in all of this but that is just asking too much.

[emmawoodhouse]

2 hours ago, Tuxcat said:

Not sure. Probably if his home was not on the property where there are minors.

Interestingly the actual court order does not specify that Anna must be present when he's with his children. It says he must be "supervised" but doesn't say by whom.

It will be Anna. Who else would pile up all her kids and make the drive out to the Rebers' place? Certainly not Mechelle. I doubt Jana wants anything to do with him. Who else is there?

[JoanArc]

Just now, emmawoodhouse said:

It will be Anna. Who else would pile up all her kids and make the drive out to the Rebers' place? Certainly not Mechelle. I doubt Jana wants anything to do with him. Who else is there?

Laura?

[Tuxcat]

1 minute ago, emmawoodhouse said:

It will be Anna. Who else would pile up all her kids and make the drive out to the Rebers' place? Certainly not Mechelle. I doubt Jana wants anything to do with him. Who else is there?

Unfortunately I could see Jana wanting to go to protect the kids. And then there's always the chance that JB just drops them at the steps of poor Mrs. Reber and asks her to "supervise." 

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, Tuxcat said:

Unfortunately I could see Jana wanting to go to protect the kids. And then there's always the chance that JB just drops them at the steps of poor Mrs. Reber and asks her to "supervise." 

@Zella, I know you have looked up the Reber property. How far are they from the TTH? I ask because I don't think that they're in a "drop off" distance. But I've been wrong before. 😁

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

@Zella, I know you have looked up the Reber property. How far are they from the TTH? I ask because I don't think that they're in a "drop off" distance. But I've been wrong before. 😁

If the house is actually in the Goshen area like I suspect based on the property records and voter registration, it wouldn't be convenient at all. It would be a good 30 minutes away, and it wouldn't be on the way to anything. You have to drive out of Tontitown and then into Springdale and Fayetteville and then actually leave Fayetteville. Goshen is more convenient to Fayetteville than Springdale/Tontitown is. 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Zella

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, libgirl2 said:

Let Anna's family do it..... they sold her to him to begin with. 

I was about to say that. The Duggar siblings have put up with enough.

[3girlsforus]

40 minutes ago, Tuxcat said:

Unfortunately I could see Jana wanting to go to protect the kids. And then there's always the chance that JB just drops them at the steps of poor Mrs. Reber and asks her to "supervise." 

I think if any of the rumors that Anna was blindsided and is very upset are true, then JB will show up and force her and the kids into the car for visits. 

[emmawoodhouse]

Just now, 3girlsforus said:

I think if any of the rumors that Anna was blindsided and is very upset are true, then JB will show up and force her and the kids into the car for visits. 

I don't think Anna would need to be forced. I'm convinced that she thinks Smuggar is innocent/framed/whatever. 🙄

[Snow Fairy]

If the Duggar kids were so sheltered, monitored, how did Josh get all this knowledge about dark web, CP and all this things? How did he even know where and how to start?

[Lurk]

12 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

If the Duggar kids were so sheltered, monitored, how did Josh get all this knowledge about dark web, CP and all this things? How did he even know where and how to start?

Their law enforcement friend that gave him the "stern talking to" that is now in jail?

[WinnieWinkle]

17 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

If the Duggar kids were so sheltered, monitored, how did Josh get all this knowledge about dark web, CP and all this things? How did he even know where and how to start?

Do we have a timeline for when this was likely to have happened?  Because once Josh moved out of the parents house - compound -  (wasn't he in Washington until he screwed up re: Ashley Madison?) he would have had unfettered access to the Internet.  

Edited May 8, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[iwantcookies]

8 minutes ago, Lurk said:

Their law enforcement friend that gave him the "stern talking to" that is now in jail?

Yes he got a LONG sentence

[Future Cat Lady]

9 minutes ago, Lurk said:

Their law enforcement friend that gave him the "stern talking to" that is now in jail?

I wonder about that guy. Did he discourage or encourage him? Also, wasn't he friend with a guy who sexually abuse a young girl? That guy might also be someone who gave him tips.

I guess finding out about the dark web is not that hard. I found out this week by following this stuff. I'm sure you can find out how to access it in the normal web. However, I dont' know how they find the content but that may be not too hard to find. 

 

Edited May 8, 2021 by Future Cat Lady

[Tuxcat]

24 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

If the Duggar kids were so sheltered, monitored, how did Josh get all this knowledge about dark web, CP and all this things? How did he even know where and how to start?

First he had connections to the law enforcement guy who's now in prison himself. But second he spent how many months in seclusion with all those other christian offenders? You know they swap techniques.

[WinnieWinkle]

6 minutes ago, Arkay said:

I know many of us want Anna, Michelle  and maybe some adult Duggar siblings to know precisely the extent of what Josh was involved in. I do, too. If they know I just cannot fathom how they can reconcile themselves to who Josh really is,  and they need to know the truth. 

It's this that makes me think that Josh will cop a plea.  The odds of the case being thrown out of court unheard are pretty small.  If this goes to trial all of this and more is going to come out.  Even if Josh is prepared to roll the dice on being found innocent I have to wonder if JB is prepared to take that chance.

Edited May 8, 2021 by WinnieWinkle

[farmgal4]

47 minutes ago, Future Cat Lady said:

I would love for someone to sit her down and tell her in details what was on the files and that Josh was mastubating to it. And then ask her if she wants someone who enjoys that around her children.

Anna, JimBoob and Michelle should be made to WATCH the videos IMO.

[Cinnabon]

6 minutes ago, farmgal4 said:

Anna, JimBoob and Michelle should be made to WATCH the videos IMO.

If not watch, read a full synopsis of them.

[Minivanessa]

30 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

If the Duggar kids were so sheltered, monitored, how did Josh get all this knowledge about dark web, CP and all this things? How did he even know where and how to start?

I don't think Josh was ever as sheltered or monitored as the Duggars claimed their kids were. I suppose the younger kids and especially the girls may have been more confined, i.e. "sheltered," with limited outside exposure, but not Josh.

Josh was already of elementary school age when his parents went all fundie/Gothard. He'd been to school (I think kindergarten if not first grade). He was old enough to notice differences in their life. 

Also, Josh was JB's "accountability partner" when JB served in the legislature from 1999 - 2002. Josh would have been 11 to 13 years old then, and JB took him everywhere. IIRC reading a comment that one legislator thought JB brought Josh to meetings on subjects which seemed inappropriate for a kid Josh's age to attend and the kid's presence made many people uncomfortable. 

I knew that Josh was considered the Duggar's crown prince, but my eyes were opened to how much special treatment he got, at home and at church, when I recently listened to this podcast on YouTube by a guy who's two years younger and who knew Josh as a teenager, from about 2004 through at least the Duggars' move into the TTH. His parents were fundies and took the family to JB's "home church" which is how he mer the Duggars. I'll call him the "narrator."

Josh was poised and confident when talking with adults, more so than the typical teen boy. Way back before the TTH, when they were jammed into a small stinky house and his siblings were being homeschooled using PCs cobbled together from parts from a bunch of old computers that JB had grabbed when a college was going to discard them? Josh had his OWN brand new fancy iMac, and a nice camcorder. His parents were encouraging him to develop skills in videography. He was definitely already tech savvy. 

The narrator was attending their church when Josh was outed as having viewed porn on Jim Holt's campaign computers. Josh was punished, which was all dealt with before the congregation. The narrator said that Josh was viewed by his parents and the church elders, as someone with potential to go out into the world and to great things (politically) for worshippers of the correct Jesus. The party line was that because Josh was designated for such a special mission and had such potential, that Satan was essentially attacking the church by tempting Josh into those sins, so they were standing by him, and they couldn't let Satan win by taking what they would consider a "worldly" view of the situation.  Or letting the evil outside world in on the facts.

If you think the show producers and TLC had no clue that something was up with Josh even that far back, you should listen to the final sections of that podcast (it's on YouTube but it's audio only). I can see JB manipulating things as much as he could, but I think the producers had to be willfully ignoring things if they really didn't figure out something was up and it wasn't good. 

tl;dr  - I doubt that Josh was ever sheltered, cloistered, or isolated from the evil outside world even if his younger siblings might have been. All that purity talk his parents did on the show was aspirational bullsh*t. I don't doubt that they did their best to imprison their younger children, especially the daughters, but I don't think Josh had to worry much about having limits placed on him. 

[Scarlett45]

Updated Guidelines for the thread:

Charges have been made public that specifically name possession of Child Sexual Abuse Material, discussion of charges are allowed. However, discussion of victims, or possible victims (and their identities) related to these charges are NOT ALLOWED. 

We are not here to provide content for ghoulish rubbernecking- there is no need to discuss the graphic details related to these charges, the moderators are not going to police posts for graphic content- posts will be removed and violators will be warned. Do not attempt to circumvent this guideline with spoiler tags.

You MAY discuss the 2015 scandals, and any statement a NOW ADULT victim has made public as previously instructed, but speculation on unnamed victims or minor victims are NOT allowed. 

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If in doubt- PM the mods @Scarlett45 & @deaja BEFORE you post. Posting with a “please delete” disclaimer isn’t a “get out of jail free card”. 
 

Carry on. 

[BitterApple]

I'm not sure if any of you lurk on Reddit, but this is an interesting read. This person used to monitor sex offenders and gives his/her opinion on why they think Josh will violate his release conditions prior to trial. There's no triggering details, for those who are trying to avoid that sort of thing.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DuggarsSnark/comments/n7y9n3/i_used_to_supervise_high_risk_sex_offenders_i/

Edited May 9, 2021 by BitterApple

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, Jeeves said:

I don't think Josh was ever as sheltered or monitored as the Duggars claimed their kids were. I suppose the younger kids and especially the girls may have been more confined, i.e. "sheltered," with limited outside exposure, but not Josh.

Josh was already of elementary school age when his parents went all fundie/Gothard. He'd been to school (I think kindergarten if not first grade). He was old enough to notice differences in their life. 

Also, Josh was JB's "accountability partner" when JB served in the legislature from 1999 - 2002. Josh would have been 11 to 13 years old then, and JB took him everywhere. IIRC reading a comment that one legislator thought JB brought Josh to meetings on subjects which seemed inappropriate for a kid Josh's age to attend and the kid's presence made many people uncomfortable. 

I knew that Josh was considered the Duggar's crown prince, but my eyes were opened to how much special treatment he got, at home and at church, when I recently listened to this podcast on YouTube by a guy who's two years younger and who knew Josh as a teenager, from about 2004 through at least the Duggars' move into the TTH. His parents were fundies and took the family to JB's "home church" which is how he mer the Duggars. I'll call him the "narrator."

Josh was poised and confident when talking with adults, more so than the typical teen boy. Way back before the TTH, when they were jammed into a small stinky house and his siblings were being homeschooled using PCs cobbled together from parts from a bunch of old computers that JB had grabbed when a college was going to discard them? Josh had his OWN brand new fancy iMac, and a nice camcorder. His parents were encouraging him to develop skills in videography. He was definitely already tech savvy. 

The narrator was attending their church when Josh was outed as having viewed porn on Jim Holt's campaign computers. Josh was punished, which was all dealt with before the congregation. The narrator said that Josh was viewed by his parents and the church elders, as someone with potential to go out into the world and to great things (politically) for worshippers of the correct Jesus. The party line was that because Josh was designated for such a special mission and had such potential, that Satan was essentially attacking the church by tempting Josh into those sins, so they were standing by him, and they couldn't let Satan win by taking what they would consider a "worldly" view of the situation.  Or letting the evil outside world in on the facts.

If you think the show producers and TLC had no clue that something was up with Josh even that far back, you should listen to the final sections of that podcast (it's on YouTube but it's audio only). I can see JB manipulating things as much as he could, but I think the producers had to be willfully ignoring things if they really didn't figure out something was up and it wasn't good. 

tl;dr  - I doubt that Josh was ever sheltered, cloistered, or isolated from the evil outside world even if his younger siblings might have been. All that purity talk his parents did on the show was aspirational bullsh*t. I don't doubt that they did their best to imprison their younger children, especially the daughters, but I don't think Josh had to worry much about having limits placed on him. 

According to the Reddit AMA guy who knew Josh, when they were teens, Josh got a lot of very fancy computer equipment from JB. He had a brand-new Mac and all kinds of stuff to do video editing -- way back in the early 2000s, when he was around 15 or 17. And that stuff wasn't cheap. Josh was really into the fancy computer stuff he had -- and who knows what he was really thinking about when he was heavily into video editing? 

Getting fancy tech seemed to be part of his kit as the golden child/man of CHristian destiny who was going to make a huge splash in the world on behalf of Jim Bob, Gothard, and all other right-thinking people, probably. ....

He seems to have asked for the fancy stuff and gotten it. And we know he was pretty weasely by that time, given the way he acted surrounding the molestations. So with a bunch of cutting-edge tech and all the information required to run it, he could have picked up a lot of stuff even then and gotten a head start....He was about 17 when the "sin in the camp" thing happened, so he certainly was thinking about the possibilities for sneaking porn even on other people's computers -- and he may have been thinking beyond that, too. 

The reddit guy also describes an incident where Josh's computer stuff was being discussed and one of the adult men in the church asked what filter was on it....and reddit said that he believed he saw Josh gulp and look a bit stricken.....So he may have been keeping with all the porn possibilities on the internet all along .... while, I suppose, utterly ignoring the ways you might use a computer to actually make money.....

[JoanArc]

5 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

while, I suppose, utterly ignoring the ways you might use a computer to actually make money.....

Remember premier productions? Josh doesn’t!

[BigBingerBro]

I remember one episode of 19KAC where they showed his computer closet room and a sign on the door saying "no rugrats allowed".   

[emmawoodhouse]

2 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

Remember premier productions? Josh doesn’t!

Duggar Studios? They still wear those shirts.

[Minivanessa]

1 minute ago, Churchhoney said:

The reddit guy also describes an incident where Josh's computer stuff was being discussed and one of the adult men in the church asked what filter was on it....and reddit said that he believed he saw Josh gulp and look a bit stricken.....So he may have been keeping with all the porn possibilities on the internet all along .... while, I suppose, utterly ignoring the ways you might use a computer to actually make money.....

Yes, that was mentioned in his podcast that I listened to and mentioned in my post. He described that scene, where Josh visibly gulped. He (the narrator) said that afterward he and his dad talked about Josh's reaction since it was so odd, although Josh had gone on to explain the filter stuff on the computer. 

What really struck me in that part of his podcast, was the contrast between Josh's workstation with the shiny new iMac and the mess of junky old computers his siblings had to use.  The narrator said that JB said that the local college was going to discard a bunch of old computers so he'd grabbed them. He said the boys had managed to assemble some working computers from all that stuff but the room was like rows of old computers and computer parts. So all the kids had to use those old computers while Joshie lorded it over everybody at his shiny fancy new iMac. 

But of course I'm sure all the Duggars were so godly that nobody ever had any resentments over that disparity. /sarcasm