Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Jeeves]

2 hours ago, floridamom said:

I think that Josh is a prisoner in his own life. He does not agree with nor does he want a life such as his parents have dictated to him. It's obvious. He and Anna should have never had more children after his post marriage 'activities' came to light. I believe his parents were and are more concerned about their own famous reputations and force Josh to conform to theirs. Sad, all they way around.

^^You nailed it. Even before his downfall, we didn't see him bragging about all the kids he had and intended to have (like his father does). He was practically phoning it in when he was supposedly the "owner/manager" of the car lot that JB set him up in. By then of course, his parents had repeatedly bailed him out of trouble. I suppose it was more tolerable back in the day when he was the undisputed Crown Prince and heir to the Head of the Whole Family title, when his wife obediently lugged the suitcases on their honeymoon and his sisters brought him soft drinks at the snap of his fingers, his mother probably defended him against anything negative with tooth and claw, and he got to swan around doing smug THs on the family TV show.

IMO, despite his unhappiness, he's not strong, energetic, or disciplined enough to step away and create any kind of career or life other than what he's been (and still is) spoon fed by his parents. Especially after he blew up his one bid for any kind of independent life. He got that FRC talking head job in DC, but it wasn't log before he blew it up (remember, he was brought down in 2015 not just by the revelation of the old molestation of small girls, but by his misconduct while in DC with porn and strippers and Ashley Madison or whatever the sad sleazy deets were). He's proven he's unable to control his behavior or perhaps his teenaged years of being bailed out and covered up for by his parents, set an expectation that he was immunized from the consequences of stupid choices like Mister Family Values Spokesman Figurehead joining Ashley Fucking Madison etc. (ETA: IIRC he paid for the Ashley Madison membership with a traceable credit card. Idiot.)

34 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Well he is the headship, he could have said "no more babies". Right?

He's trapped. Can't get a vasectomy, can't use birth control, and his wife is probably tracking her fertility carefully. Although given his apparent lack of enthusiasm about more babeez, Anna may be keeping the deets on her phone or on a calendar buried in a drawer, vs. posting it on the wall in the kitchen like Michelle did with hers. No need for him to know for sure when she's most likely to conceive, on which nights he could conveniently manage to avoid intercourse. 

I don't particularly like his younger brother JD, but it's an interesting contrast in personality types and life choices. JD apparently wasn't the pampered Crown Princeling; he quietly went out and started buying and working on houses, pursued his interest in flying and got a pilot's license, may have escaped life in the boys' dorm at the TTH (while his parents obfuscated that little fact for the TV audience), and didn't rush into a marriage despite JB and Meech probably pressuring him to give the TV viewers a courtship/wedding and pregnancies/babies to help ratings. He's apparently still on the same page as his parents about religion and related life issues and values, and financially enmeshed in his father's business. But I have an idea that if Duggar Enterprises crashed tomorrow, JD and Abbie would survive better than most of his adult sibs. Josh, OTOH, would probably be panhandling for his next supersized burger/fries combo.

Edited October 20, 2020 by Jeeves

[crazycatlady58]

23 minutes ago, Snow Fairy said:

Well he is the headship, he could have said "no more babies". Right?

Well yes he can but his wife is wanting another baby. His parents keep asking when the next one coming and I am sure his sisters and brothers are always asking when the next baby will be here. Having been raised in a gaggle of kids that is the norm for him. I would not be surprised if Jill and Derek are gossiped about... ie.. something must be wrong. 

[Dimi1]

On 10/18/2020 at 11:11 AM, DangerousMinds said:

At cult camp. What the hell is going on with Josh’s hair? And if it’s cold enough for long sleeves and puffy jackets, WHY are the kids barefoot? And maskless. There’s just so much going on.

bare feet and coats...only in the south..where you can have the furnace on in the house in the morning and the air conditioner on in the afternoon :)....the coats are probably just wishful thinking that fall weather MAY be coming at any minute...

[rue721]

1 hour ago, Jeeves said:

He's proven he's unable to control his behavior or perhaps his teenaged years of being bailed out and covered up for by his parents, set an expectation that he was immunized from the consequences of stupid choices like Mister Family Values Spokesman Figurehead joining Ashley Fucking Madison etc. (ETA: IIRC he paid for the Ashley Madison membership with a traceable credit card. Idiot.)

I really wonder about things like this -- Josh's choices are SO self-destructive, over and over and over again. And he just seems unhappier and unhappier. I wonder where that self-destructiveness is coming from. It's such an odd thing.

That is a man trapped in hell, and you've got to wonder at how much is of his own making...and how much isn't?

Edited October 20, 2020 by rue721

[Spazamanaz]

I've often wondered, if Josh was raised in a household with a healthy view on sexuality, and all of that that goes along with adolescence and curiosity, etc.,   would he still have done what he did to his sisters? Or is he just a deviant sexual predator deep down? He married and had an outlet, so to speak, for sexual gratification and yet he gets involved with that Ashley Maddison stuff. So, I wonder if he really does have a problem. What do you all think? Personally I can honestly see him as being a sexual predator out there in the world, if he wasn't born into such a restricted family/ cult. 

[Zella]

2 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I've often wondered, if Josh was raised in a household with a healthy view on sexuality, and all of that that goes along with adolescence and curiosity, etc.,   would he still have done what he did to his sisters? Or is he just a deviant sexual predator deep down? He married and had an outlet, so to speak, for sexual gratification and yet he gets involved with that Ashley Maddison stuff. So, I wonder if he really does have a problem. What do you all think? Personally I can honestly see him as being a sexual predator out there in the world, if he wasn't born into such a restricted family/ cult. 

I think he might have always had some issues, but growing up in a family that was both hypersexualized and extremely repressive about sex didn't help matters. I can't imagine it's great for anyone's mental health to grow up in a house that puts mommy's fertility and mommy and daddy's sex life on such a pedestal that the kids help her keep track of her period and daddy humps her in public on national TV at a mini golf course while it's also constantly rubbed in your face that normal clothing, masturbation, and even thinking lustful thoughts about anyone you're not married to is a sin. The Duggar kids got screwed on both ends there. (Pun not intended.) 

Not at all defending Josh because what he did to his sisters and that other poor girl is absolutely horrible. But I can see how the way his parents raised him and how they responded didn't help matters and further enabled him. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Zella

[Spazamanaz]

That's exactly what I am thinking too. 

[Nysha]

On 10/10/2020 at 10:17 AM, awaken said:

All I’m wondering is if Mackynzie had to bike in a skirt. 

Of course she did. Josh & Anna are holding on to that tradition tooth and nail. They're going to be the most gothardly Duggar parents on the compound b/c that's all they have going for them.

[rue721]

Honestly, we have no way of knowing what Josh's damage is. His behavior was so disturbingly predatory as a kid and so self-destructive as an adult, and he seemed to have been BEGGING to be caught both then and now...I feel out of my depth with it all.

To me, this is someone who needs help. Actual help. Not being dumped with a child molester to do hard labor, not married off to a Breeder for Jesus, etc etc etc. I know what you all mean about him being a smug slimeball even way back in the very first special, but there is a part of me that wonders if he was the first abuse victim in the family...I mean, this all had to start somewhere, and that's the usual way...and I wind up pitying him.

Naive, I'm sure. To be honest, I didn't really see the scandals coming or hate him before they broke -- I can't claim to understand this family very well at all, so I'm 99% certain that's just me being naive. But I still do wonder why he is this way, and I can't quite believe that he's just a bad seed or that his family's sexual repressiveness had a different impact on him than on all of his other siblings.

[Scarlett45]

Quote

Really shines a spotlight on the fact that Josh did what he did, but the seeds of destruction were planted by his parents.   Loving, caring parental attention and sharing information and helping him understand could have normalized the processes and changes of puberty he was no doubt struggling with likely would have meant he never became a youthful offender.     

Bringing @Tikichick’s post over. 
 

I don’t know about that. Something tells me Josh was always predisposed to be a fucking creep, and like most predators he preyed on the easiest and weakest target- his little sisters. Tons of young people are told masturbation is wrong- most don’t assault their pre-pubescent younger siblings. This wasn’t a situation where Josh and Jana had raging hormones and crossed some boundaries that shouldn’t have been crossed (but it wasn’t predatory), the boy preyed on Joy who was FIVE. Five. 
 

I think with a “mainstream” upbringing Josh would’ve ended up the typical creep who had a reputation for “not taking no for an answer” or the “friend” you couldn’t be drunk around because he may put his hands where they didn’t belong- aka the a common rapist and assailant who thinks they are owed sexual favors if they buy you dinner. 
 

Being sexually frustrated doesn’t make you assault people. Especially people who are weaker and smaller than you that you have been taught to protect. 

[emmawoodhouse]

I also remember Smuggar's OK Cupid application, which was leaked. 

He essentially believes in marital rape, expecting a woman to service him on his schedule. I think a lot of this also comes from the entitlement he had growing up as the Golden Child. He could do no wrong in his parents' eyes as evidenced by how they had to scramble to cover up the molestations. Smuggar was sent away to a Gothard construction site for a couple of months. He learned nothing. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by emmawoodhouse

[Scarlett45]

P

2 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

I also remember Smuggar's OK Cupid application, which was leaked. 

He essentially believes in marital rape, expecting a woman to service him on his schedule. I think a lot of this also comes from the entitlement he had growing up as the Golden Child. He could do no wrong in his parents' eyes as evidenced by how they had to scramble to cover up the molestations. Smuggar was sent away to a Gothard construction site for a couple of months. He learned nothing. 

Yup. I think Josh was a combination of narcissism, lack of boundaries, entitlement etc which was fueled by the Gothard mentality but is not exclusive to it. 

 I also think Josh never touched Jana because as the eldest girl she was an authority figure in the home and he was scared she would break his hand in the process.

For the record I don’t blame JB& Michelle for the molestations happening- that was Josh’s choice AND I don’t think JB & Michelle ever gave Josh any impression and molesting his sisters was “ah-ok , cause he was a man and was entitled”;  but I do blame them for how they handled it once they found out. 
 

The girls shouldn’t have been forced to live with their attacker. They could’ve sent him to live with Grandma Mary until he was of age, but then their image for the show would’ve been ruined. 

[LilJen]

Irony: Josh doesn’t have the balls to leave his situation or tell his wife ‘no more babies’ or tell his family to eff off. . . But because he has balls he keeps fathering babies.

[Scarlett45]

12 hours ago, LilJen said:

Irony: Josh doesn’t have the balls to leave his situation or tell his wife ‘no more babies’ or tell his family to eff off. . . But because he has balls he keeps fathering babies.

Well, although we’ve been watching this family for over a decade, Josh is REALLY YOUNG- he’s only 32! Tons of people don’t leave toxic shit (that isn’t even their fault) for a variety of reasons until they are much older. 
 

I could see Josh “leaving” the fold if he thought he had a way to stay physically/financially comfortable while doing so. JB has him by the balls now but JB is only getting older. Josh at 42 or 52  may be sick of playing along. 
 

I do also think he’s got a normal human affection for Anna and the kids. Being “alone” is scary for someone who’s never lived alone or done adulthood “alone”. 
 

Now he could tell Anna “no more babies”, but if she makes his food and making babies keeps her happy he’s too chicken shit to fight her on it. And not like he does much anyway. He doesn’t have to be pregnant, go into labor, nurse, do most of the childcare or financially support the child. He gets the fun part of having an orgasm. 

[Genevrier]

46 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Being sexually frustrated doesn’t make you assault people. Especially people who are weaker and smaller than you that you have been taught to protect. 

I haven’t seen anything in the Gothard propaganda that suggests boys were specifically taught to protect their younger sisters. The sisters were there to wait on him, and they were responsible for protecting him from his manly lustful nature 🤢. It was certainly clear that Jim Bob did not give a shit about protecting his daughters, when the scandal broke.

[emmawoodhouse]

1 minute ago, Genevrier said:

I haven’t seen anything in the Gothard propaganda that suggests boys were specifically taught to protect their younger sisters. The sisters were there to wait on him, and they were responsible for protecting him from his manly lustful nature 🤢. It was certainly clear that Jim Bob did not give a shit about protecting his daughters, when the scandal broke.

That was evident when Boobchelle trotted out Jill and Jessa to defend the perp.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, Genevrier said:

I haven’t seen anything in the Gothard propaganda that suggests boys were specifically taught to protect their younger sisters. The sisters were there to wait on him, and they were responsible for protecting him from his manly lustful nature 🤢. It was certainly clear that Jim Bob did not give a shit about protecting his daughters, when the scandal broke.

 

3 minutes ago, emmawoodhouse said:

That was evident when Boobchelle trotted out Jill and Jessa to defend the perp.

Y’all are right. I’m thinking of a “typical” family where the older kids are taught to watch out and protect the younger ones. 
 

I know Jana had guilt as did JD- cause unlike Josh they are decent people who did care about being a role model and protecting their younger siblings from harm. 

[Spazamanaz]

53 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

 

I don’t know about that. Something tells me Josh was always predisposed to be a fucking creep, and like most predators he preyed on the easiest and weakest target- his little sisters. Tons of young people are told masturbation is wrong- most don’t assault their pre-pubescent younger siblings. This wasn’t a situation where Josh and Jana had raging hormones and crossed some boundaries that shouldn’t have been crossed (but it wasn’t predatory), the boy preyed on Joy who was FIVE. Five. 
 

I think with a “mainstream” upbringing Josh would’ve ended up the typical creep who had a reputation for “not taking no for an answer” or the “friend” you couldn’t be drunk around because he may put his hands where they didn’t belong- aka the a common rapist and assailant who thinks they are owed sexual favors if they buy you dinner. 
 

Being sexually frustrated doesn’t make you assault people. Especially people who are weaker and smaller than you that you have bìeen taught to protect. 

Your reply is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words! LOL

I agree with this 100%. Thats why I asked what everyone thought. I feel that something must be 'off' with him to begin with. Josh seems like he would be that creep to take advantage of a situation if he could. Even back in the days of 14 Kids and Counting, there was something about him that just didn't sit right with me. Bad vibes. I have never liked him nor trusted him, he's deviant and gives off bad vibes. And when it came out about the molestations, I was not surprised at all. 

[Scarlett45]

10 minutes ago, Spazamanaz said:

Your reply is exactly what I was trying to say. Thank you for putting my thoughts into words! LOL

I agree with this 100%. Thats why I asked what everyone thought. I feel that something must be 'off' with him to begin with. Josh seems like he would be that creep to take advantage of a situation if he could. Even back in the days of 14 Kids and Counting, there was something about him that just didn't sit right with me. Bad vibes. I have never liked him nor trusted him, he's deviant and gives off bad vibes. And when it came out about the molestations, I was not surprised at all. 

I could tell even from the early specials that NONE of the other kids liked Josh very much- I thought it was because he was a run of mill asshole, not that he molested his sisters. A “run of the mill asshole” is someone you don’t want to be around, because they lack empathy and social graces, are very selfish and self serving- but not because they actually assault people. 
 

I didn’t believe the rumors initially (until I heard it from the girls own mouths/Josh confession) because although I was quick to believe Josh was an asshole, sexually assaulting one’s little sister was just so foul I wouldn’t assume someone would do that just cause they are an asshole. (I know plenty of assholes, some in my own family, but they would never hurt someone like that. You just don’t deal with them on an emotional level.) 

[madpsych78]

4 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Bringing @Tikichick’s post over. 
 

I don’t know about that. Something tells me Josh was always predisposed to be a fucking creep, and like most predators he preyed on the easiest and weakest target- his little sisters. Tons of young people are told masturbation is wrong- most don’t assault their pre-pubescent younger siblings. This wasn’t a situation where Josh and Jana had raging hormones and crossed some boundaries that shouldn’t have been crossed (but it wasn’t predatory), the boy preyed on Joy who was FIVE. Five. 
 

I think with a “mainstream” upbringing Josh would’ve ended up the typical creep who had a reputation for “not taking no for an answer” or the “friend” you couldn’t be drunk around because he may put his hands where they didn’t belong- aka the a common rapist and assailant who thinks they are owed sexual favors if they buy you dinner. 
 

Being sexually frustrated doesn’t make you assault people. Especially people who are weaker and smaller than you that you have been taught to protect. 

I also agree that this is a post that was able to articulate my thoughts about the Josh thing as well. There are a lot of things wrong with their religion, but there are also non-Gothardites who rape and assault others due to entitlement, and as was noted none of the other Duggars (to our knowledge) have engaged in any of that type of behavior. Furthermore, I don't get the same vibe from any of the other Duggar sons that I've gotten with Josh. So, I don't believe Josh's choices are solely due to growing up IBLP. I do think IBLP probably influenced how it was handled, though.

The only other male who I could see having some type of scandal may be Jeremy, as I could see him cheating on Jinger down the road, but I could also see him being much more discreet about it than Josh. Also, as has been stated, cheating on your spouse is totally different than molesting a five-year-old, which I CANNOT imagine Jeremy doing at all. 

 

Edited October 21, 2020 by madpsych78

[Zella]

49 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

cheating on your spouse is totally different than molesting a five-year-old, which I CANNOT imagine Jeremy doing at all. 

Agreed. And it is telling to me that the Duggars seemed madder about the former than the latter. 

50 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

So, I don't believe Josh's choices are solely due to growing up IBLP. I do think IBLP probably influenced how it was handled, though.

I agree with this. I do think that the weird dichotomy between the environment being hypersexualized and sexually repressive that I mentioned earlier today didn't help whatever was going on with Josh (and indeed was damaging for all of them), but I also don't think it can be blamed for what he did. 

[GeeGolly]

As I've said before, as a therapist I've heard many (too many) stories of familial sexual abuse. Many of the folks I worked with were not believed at all, had their parent(s) side with the abuser or were ignored completely. Josh was shamed and sent away for six months. JB & M always believed it happened. So they did do something. Sibling molestation is very complicated for parents as they love all their children, the abuser and the abused. They certainly could have handled it better, but I'm actually amazed that JB & M did anything at all.

I also don't think they were more appalled over Josh's cheating. I think what we saw was a family feeling betrayed by Josh, because they were coming to his defense about the long ago molestations, while he was currently trying to hook up with women for sex while married.

I also don't discount at all that the girls were retraumatized by the molestations being made public. They had no control of what was being written about them while being made public. I'm glad they had the opportunity to take back some control over their story and speak about it. 

Its hard to tell what kind of guy Josh would have been had he been raised in a different family. But I do think the Duggar family dynamic contributed to his misdeeds, for all the reasons you all mentioned. All siblings are different, first by nature and then by nurture. No sibling truly has the 'same parent', as parents change with each additional child and as life is lived. So the fact that none of his siblings molested another or tried to cheat on their spouses, doesn't discount the impact the family dynamics had on Josh.

[Jeeves]

1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

Its hard to tell what kind of guy Josh would have been had he been raised in a different family. But I do think the Duggar family dynamic contributed to his misdeeds, for all the reasons you all mentioned. All siblings are different, first by nature and then by nurture. No sibling truly has the 'same parent', as parents change with each additional child and as life is lived. So the fact that none of his siblings molested another or tried to cheat on their spouses, doesn't discount the impact the family dynamics had on Josh.

This is well stated, and reflects what I've been thinking but couldn't express very well. 

As noted, every child's experience is different although they are in the same family. I think Josh's experience was perhaps more markedly different than his sibs in a few respects though of course I don't know how it affected him. Maybe he would have had the same sense of entitlement regardless. I also wonder how deeply he really drank the fundie/IBLP kool-aid.

First, as the oldest child, Josh I think went to at least kindergarten, until his parents went full on fundie/Gothardites, and pulled him out of school to stay at home. He got to watch as his mother kept pumping out babeez, until the family was jammed almost literally shoulder to shoulder in that small house. 

Then, when JB served in the Arkansas House of Representatives (1999-2002), I have read that he took Josh along with him to work. (ETA: I believe it was every day, everywhere but am open to correction if wrong). Josh (born in March 1988) would have been aged 11 to 14. I've read at least one comment from someone at the legislature who wasn't charmed by JB dragging Josh along to everything, saying that included hearings etc. on subjects that weren't age appropriate for the kid.

So, Josh escaped the crammed tiny house, unlike his sibs, and went with his dad to the legislature. Favored child, indeed. It probably didn't hurt his sense of entitlement.

The timing of JB and Meech's conversion to fundie/Gothardites is interesting in terms of Josh. If he was old enough to start school, he may have been perceptive enough to understand that what mom and dad were suddenly thinking, saying, and doing, was a big change. He may have dived in along with them as a true believer - or maybe he went along with it because that was his world, but wasn't as deep a believer. And how much of the family dynamic did he witness and absorb? Did he know about Meech's famous laundry room breakdown? Did he love each new squalling baby that made mom so happy to deliver, or resent them?

Of course, we know that any such independent (and genuine) thoughts and emotions are totally against the fundie/IBLP/Gothard code of life. Kids belong to parents, they LOVE and ADORE and RESPECT their parents at all times, and any insubordination is of the devil and to be beaten out of them. Josh was old enough to escape blanket training and to watch his mother do it to his siblings. He was probably savvy enough to behave and speak as his parents wanted, as his position as eldest child and Crown Prince attests. It wouldn't surprise me if Josh is just going through the motions as to a lot of his life, especially after having blown up his one chance at a life away from the Duggar compound and coming back to it in shame. 

Edited October 21, 2020 by Jeeves

[Tikichick]

13 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Bringing @Tikichick’s post over. 
 

I don’t know about that. Something tells me Josh was always predisposed to be a fucking creep, and like most predators he preyed on the easiest and weakest target- his little sisters. Tons of young people are told masturbation is wrong- most don’t assault their pre-pubescent younger siblings. This wasn’t a situation where Josh and Jana had raging hormones and crossed some boundaries that shouldn’t have been crossed (but it wasn’t predatory), the boy preyed on Joy who was FIVE. Five. 
 

I think with a “mainstream” upbringing Josh would’ve ended up the typical creep who had a reputation for “not taking no for an answer” or the “friend” you couldn’t be drunk around because he may put his hands where they didn’t belong- aka the a common rapist and assailant who thinks they are owed sexual favors if they buy you dinner. 
 

Being sexually frustrated doesn’t make you assault people. Especially people who are weaker and smaller than you that you have been taught to protect. 

I've worked with several offenders over the years.   In my experience it's most common for those who offend to have been a victim themselves, although not always by any means.  I have seen cases where juvenile offenders have been deemed by specialists in the field to not in fact have predatory instincts or motives, but were determined to have acted out against extreme control and suppression by either parents or guardians.  This determination did not come from defense hired guns seeking to mitigate responsibility and avoid prosecution or punishment, but from neutral and objective experts the court put in place to get a deep overview of the situation.   I really respect their deep knowledge in this area, even though over the years I've found some of it quite challenging to what I would consider common sense or logical and rational views of some of these situations.

I'm not suggesting it's okay to act out in this manner or to excuse the offense or offender, absolutely not  I am simply pointing out that there are differences among offenders and some are predators through and through and will always be considered a grave threat, while others commit their offenses from a completely different motivation, one that can be changed or course corrected with treatment.   That is something that is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to do, for those who offend from a motivation driven by a need for predation.

I'd never heard the allegation of the public discipline for masturbation before.  If true, these parents literally could not have set up a situation any more fraught to create another high risk situation.    Particularly viewing it in light of what had already taken place in their family, this begged for the intervention of Protective Services.   Yes, this absolutely makes me take a serious look at the Josh situation in a different light -- one which is very encouraging regarding how I view the risk he presents to his own or any other children. 

[GeeGolly]

6 minutes ago, not you again said:

Maybe it's just the sourpuss in me, but I think they were compelled to do something, by someone else.  I won't give those two ego-centric assholes credit for thinking of anyone other than themselves.

The timeline shows that JB & M sought help from their church elders long before what Josh did was common knowledge. A significant factor in recovery of victims of abuse is being believed. No one compelled JB & M to believe Josh molested his sisters.

But even if they were compelled to punish Josh, they still did something.

7 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I've worked with several offenders over the years.   In my experience it's most common for those who offend to have been a victim themselves, although not always by any means.  I have seen cases where juvenile offenders have been deemed by specialists in the field to not in fact have predatory instincts or motives, but were determined to have acted out against extreme control and suppression by either parents or guardians.  This determination did not come from defense hired guns seeking to mitigate responsibility and avoid prosecution or punishment, but from neutral and objective experts the court put in place to get a deep overview of the situation.   I really respect their deep knowledge in this area, even though over the years I've found some of it quite challenging to what I would consider common sense or logical and rational views of some of these situations.

I'm not suggesting it's okay to act out in this manner or to excuse the offense or offender, absolutely not  I am simply pointing out that there are differences among offenders and some are predators through and through and will always be considered a grave threat, while others commit their offenses from a completely different motivation, one that can be changed or course corrected with treatment.   That is something that is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to do, for those who offend from a motivation driven by a need for predation.

I'd never heard the allegation of the public discipline for masturbation before.  If true, these parents literally could not have set up a situation any more fraught to create another high risk situation.    Particularly viewing it in light of what had already taken place in their family, this begged for the intervention of Protective Services.   Yes, this absolutely makes me take a serious look at the Josh situation in a different light -- one which is very encouraging regarding how I view the risk he presents to his own or any other children. 

Well said.

[Scarlett45]

27 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I've worked with several offenders over the years.   In my experience it's most common for those who offend to have been a victim themselves, although not always by any means.  I have seen cases where juvenile offenders have been deemed by specialists in the field to not in fact have predatory instincts or motives, but were determined to have acted out against extreme control and suppression by either parents or guardians.  This determination did not come from defense hired guns seeking to mitigate responsibility and avoid prosecution or punishment, but from neutral and objective experts the court put in place to get a deep overview of the situation.   I really respect their deep knowledge in this area, even though over the years I've found some of it quite challenging to what I would consider common sense or logical and rational views of some of these situations.

I'm not suggesting it's okay to act out in this manner or to excuse the offense or offender, absolutely not  I am simply pointing out that there are differences among offenders and some are predators through and through and will always be considered a grave threat, while others commit their offenses from a completely different motivation, one that can be changed or course corrected with treatment.   That is something that is incredibly difficult, if not impossible to do, for those who offend from a motivation driven by a need for predation.

I'd never heard the allegation of the public discipline for masturbation before.  If true, these parents literally could not have set up a situation any more fraught to create another high risk situation.    Particularly viewing it in light of what had already taken place in their family, this begged for the intervention of Protective Services.   Yes, this absolutely makes me take a serious look at the Josh situation in a different light -- one which is very encouraging regarding how I view the risk he presents to his own or any other children. 

Thank you for sharing. I respect your opinion and knowledge in this area- I don't pretend to be an expert AT ALL. 

 

Josh is just so swarmy- I saw guys like him in college that screamed "stay away". 

[Jeeves]

2 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Josh is just so swarmy- I saw guys like him in college that screamed "stay away". 

And it's not just you. Remember, long before Joshgate, probably back in the TWoP days, someone dubbed him "Smuggar," and that stuck.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, not you again said:

Maybe it's just the sourpuss in me, but I think they were compelled to do something, by someone else.  I won't give those two ego-centric assholes credit for thinking of anyone other than themselves.

Yes, I believe Josh wasn't sent away until after he molested the non-family member.  He molested his sisters in their room at night, reportedly confessed it to his parents, but was kept at home because his assault on Jinger in the laundry room and on Joy in the living room when she was 5; happened at some time after that.

The fact that Josh was clearly strongly favored and protected by his parents from the start, while not strictly due to their faith, also contributed to his sense of entitlement and his lack of consideration for the younger sibs which is part of what led to his assaults, IMO.  He just didn't see his sisters as equals and felt he could do what he wanted whether they agreed or not.

Quote

The timeline shows that JB & M sought help from their church elders long before what Josh did was common knowledge. A significant factor in recovery of victims of abuse is being believed. No one compelled JB & M to believe Josh molested his sisters.

There were multiple molestations over a period of time, including one on a non-family member.   I don't think JB and Meechelle approached the church elders until well after the first time they heard about Josh touching his sisters; right before he got sent away. As a matter of fact, we don't know what they thought the first time, we don't even know that Josh himself confessed out of guilt and that he wasn't caught by one of his sisters which prompted the confession. JB and Michelle are not known for their honesty when it comes to their family, quite the opposite.  The fact is that Josh molested AT LEAST 5 different girls, including a 5 year old, before any substantive action was taken.  I think even the most clueless parent would begin to believe the stories when it happened FIVE times.  And 5 is, of course, based on JB and Michelle's story that each of the girls was only victimized once, which I think is highly unlikely.

Edited October 21, 2020 by doodlebug

[ouinason]

frankly the fact that Josh confessed, knew something was wrong, and nothing much was really done to help any of them pisses me right the hell off.  JB and M served all of their children badly, including Josh.  It took a second round of incidents for them to do didly squat about it, and even then there was no real therapeutic intervention for any of them.  These are horrid parents.

[rue721]

Just now, ouinason said:

frankly the fact that Josh confessed, knew something was wrong, and nothing much was really done to help any of them pisses me right the hell off.  JB and M served all of their children badly, including Josh.  It took a second round of incidents for them to do didly squat about it, and even then there was no real therapeutic intervention for any of them.  These are horrid parents.

What I find the most galling is actually that they didn't get Josh help, they just assumed he was a lost cause and concentrated on locking up their daughters. That's horrible any way you slice it. It's stupid in a practical sense, it's victim blaming and destructive to the girls, and on top of all that...Josh was a child who was acting extremely inappropriately, he clearly did need help, clearly something was wrong and needed to be addressed and changed *with him.* Locking the doors and putting as many clothes as possible on the kids as sort of low-rent chastity belts does nothing to address why he was behaving the way he was. Which he *also* knew was wrong and which he confessed to and did at times/places where there were lots of witnesses and he was basically begging to get caught. That, to me, seems like a fucked up and childish way of asking for help. People talk about him being favored because he was tomato staked to his parents...I don't know. I think it's possible but really anything's possible. I can tell you that if my (hypothetical) son were acting out sexually like that, I would be extremely worried about him and would not assume he just needed some physical obstacles and manly discipline to "get right." Once again, my thoughts go to disturbing places in terms of what might have brought this on, and who knows what the truth even is (we probably never will, and probably shouldn't) -- but chauvinistic entitlement, while toxic and the cause of many horrible things, is not enough explanation in my mind for a literal pubescent child sexually abusing the children around him. YMMV. This is yet another time when I wish that the kids had been sent to a regular public school, because mandated reporters would have had something to say about this kind of behavior and maybe Josh would have actually gotten the therapy and other help that he clearly needed. Sure, he probably was always doomed to be a creep, he has two creeps for parents...but he didn't have to be THIS particular kind of creep. And he also didn't need to be a skin-crawling wretch for the rest of his life.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Scarlett45 said:

Thank you for sharing. I respect your opinion and knowledge in this area- I don't pretend to be an expert AT ALL. 

 

Josh is just so swarmy- I saw guys like him in college that screamed "stay away". 

To be clear, I'm not an expert by any means.  I just run across this issue from time to time in my work caseload, which involves the consultations of those who actually are experts in this field and gives me a basic familiarity.

I think because of working closely on cases over the years, when I heard about the Ashley Madison (I think that's the right name, if not everyone knows what I'm referring to)  portion of Josh's scandals it raised some questions for me about what his situation might actually be.   If true, this public humiliation and "discipline" for masturbation really makes me think a certain way about how things were handled in this family and what actually led to what happened AND makes me really want punishment for the most responsible offenders.  If true, I shudder to think of what occurs when toddler boys in particular in this family go through at a certain stage of development.   It may finally be a circumstance where Michelle being mentally checked out and very much a hands off mother after infancy truly was a benefit in disguise -- if surrogates weren't charged with zealous oversight in her stead.  

As far as Josh's inclination to be smug and smarmy, it is obvious -- but it's also clearly learned at the foot of a master.   He was raised as the heir apparent and was expected and rewarded for aping all things JB to the nth degree.  Hands down JB is the primary family member I feel I would have a physical reaction to being in the same room with.   I literally hear alarm bells clanging about so many things just looking at him.  

[ouinason]

JB creeps me the fuck out, and the fact that he superficially resembles my father makes that 15 times worse.

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

I think because of working closely on cases over the years, when I heard about the Ashley Madison (I think that's the right name, if not everyone knows what I'm referring to)  portion of Josh's scandals it raised some questions for me about what his situation might actually be. 

The entire Ashley Madison thing seemed to me just to be “men cheating on the spouses stupidly”. If someone wants to cheat on their spouse and actually not get caught or ruin their life- they don’t cheat with a co-worker, they usually cheat with another married person who understands the rules, and they don’t use a website like Ashley Madison. 
 

I think Josh just wanted some sexual variety and wasn’t smart about it. Friends of friends of mine were found to be registered to Ashley Madison- given that the wife blew the stripper at the bachelorette party I wasn’t surprised. 

[BitterApple]

My personal opinion is what the Duggars told the police was the tip of the iceberg. I think there were more incidents and likely more victims that we don't know about.

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My personal opinion is what the Duggars told the police was the tip of the iceberg. I think there were more incidents and likely more victims that we don't know about.

I agree.  The only reason why the police got involved was because Josh chose the wrong girl as his victim.  The unknown (to me, I would never attempt to seek out her name) victim was believed by her parents or another adult.  Who knows how many other girls Josh molested who either did not disclose or were not believed.  

[Zella]

13 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

My personal opinion is what the Duggars told the police was the tip of the iceberg. I think there were more incidents and likely more victims that we don't know about.

Me too. I don't believe for a second that every incident is accounted for. Contrary to what the Duggars claim, I believe Josh only confessed every time he was caught, not every time he did something. 

[Tikichick]

Just now, Scarlett45 said:

The entire Ashley Madison thing seemed to me just to be “men cheating on the spouses stupidly”. If someone wants to cheat on their spouse and actually not get caught or ruin their life- they don’t cheat with a co-worker, they usually cheat with another married person who understands the rules, and they don’t use a website like Ashley Madison. 
 

I think Josh just wanted some sexual variety and wasn’t smart about it. Friends of friends of mine were found to be registered to Ashley Madison- given that the wife blew the stripper at the bachelorette party I wasn’t surprised. 

What I was getting at in regards to the Ashley Madison aspect of Josh's fall from grace was that it immediately sent up a question in my mind about what it said about how he's wired, what drives him.   That's a very important consideration in evaluating risk factors and prognosis for offenders.   That in conjunction with knowledge he had a history of youthful offenses are part of the full picture that has to be looked at to understand what's really going on.   Stifling, oppressive parental control in an environment of scant factual knowledge, very limited beliefs and little outside social outlets are also important factors to consider.

Upping the ante to an environment so extremely oppressive that it could allegedly allow something like the public humiliation and discipline for masturbation to take place is akin to tossing a lit stick of dynamite into a room.   We do have to remember it's only alleged.  It doesn't sound like the allegation involves Josh in particular, however it is alleged to have taken place in the home and family he was raised in.   Could that have been an extreme reaction to one of the younger boys getting caught masturbating after the parents were aware of Josh's behavior with the girls?  It's possible.  

In any light it paints a very disturbing picture of the attitudes Josh could have been confronted with in the initial stages of grappling with puberty and hormones human beings go through -- I'm talking about before acting on anyone else .   I don't see JB or M giving him any knowledge about his body aside from -- sinful until marriage.  In this respect I think females get a slight advantage in their world just because of the actual physical process of menstruation requiring some attention.   Beyond that they no doubt get an even fiercer representation regarding sinful behavior.   Did Josh have any notion that what he was experiencing was all normal aspects of human development, or did he feel shame and fear, assuming he was evil?   Those kinds of things are very impactful in how a person's entire experience of sexuality is shaped.

I'm not at all surprised a family of their public stature has faced the issue of molestation, or how they dealt with it.  I'm used to families circling the wagons around offenders and blaming the victims.   I am completely shaken by the idea that a family of their public stature in particular would very openly humiliate and "discipline" a child for masturbation in front of outsiders and that not result in a report to authorities and official intervention.   Believe it or not, that is what raises this to an extreme level for me.  I'm not even a little bit used to the idea a bunch of outsiders could stand around and watch a kid be humiliated and punished for a normal biological reaction and nobody raised holy hell??!!??!!!!!  

[doodlebug]

3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The timeline shows that JB & M sought help from their church elders long before what Josh did was common knowledge. A significant factor in recovery of victims of abuse is being believed. No one compelled JB & M to believe Josh molested his sisters.

According to JB and M, Josh' sisters didn't know they had been assaulted until HE went to his parents and confessed.  So, their version of events means that there was no need to believe the victims, that the perpetrator confessed.  Since the victims purportedly never knew about the crime until their brother confessed; the fact that many victims are not believed is irrelevant in this case.  That is, if you believe JB and M's story.  

[SMama]

7 minutes ago, doodlebug said:

According to JB and M, Josh' sisters didn't know they had been assaulted until HE went to his parents and confessed.  So, their version of events means that there was no need to believe the victims, that the perpetrator confessed.  Since the victims purportedly never knew about the crime until their brother confessed; the fact that many victims are not believed is irrelevant in this case.  That is, if you believe JB and M's story.  

I call BS on that and can’t wait for Jill to heal and eventually speak truth to power on this subject. 

[GeeGolly]

1 hour ago, doodlebug said:

According to JB and M, Josh' sisters didn't know they had been assaulted until HE went to his parents and confessed.  So, their version of events means that there was no need to believe the victims, that the perpetrator confessed.  Since the victims purportedly never knew about the crime until their brother confessed; the fact that many victims are not believed is irrelevant in this case.  That is, if you believe JB and M's story.  

How could no victim know about the crime if he was reading a book to one and was in the laundry room with the other?

[lascuba]

8 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

How could no victim know about the crime if he was reading a book to one and was in the laundry room with the other?

His initial confession was regarding him molesting girls while they were sleeping. The laundry room assault and the 5 years old happened much later.

That's why I--in my markedly non-expert opinion--put most of the blame on JB and Michelle and their religion. Because while I agree that Josh is predisposed to be a creep, the fact that they found out about what he was doing after *he* told them (if we believe them on that) seems to me that Josh really wanted help, and when he didn't get that help, he escalated.

[lascuba]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I agree.  The only reason why the police got involved was because Josh chose the wrong girl as his victim.  The unknown (to me, I would never attempt to seek out her name) victim was believed by her parents or another adult.  Who knows how many other girls Josh molested who either did not disclose or were not believed.  

According to the police report, that girl didn't know about it until JB called her parents and told them. From what I remember of the police report, no indication was made that the initial accusation was from the non-related victim. The police got involved because Oprah's people contacted CPS when they got that letter.

[GeeGolly]

1 minute ago, lascuba said:

His initial confession was regarding him molesting girls while they were sleeping. The laundry room assault and the 5 years old happened much later.

That's why I--in my markedly non-expert opinion--put most of the blame on JB and Michelle and their religion. Because while I agree that Josh is predisposed to be a creep, the fact that they found out about what he was doing after *he* told them (if we believe them on that) seems to me that Josh really wanted help, and when he didn't get that help, he escalated.

There have been so many versions of the story its hard to know what is true and what isn't. Either way two of the girls were awake and knew what happened. Having the perpetrator admit what they've done and JB & M taking it seriously, matters.

I'm not sure Josh was asking for help. I don't think he saw himself as a sexual predator unable to control his urges. I think he was fessing up that he did something wrong. 

[lascuba]

3 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

There have been so many versions of the story its hard to know what is true and what isn't. Either way two of the girls were awake and knew what happened. Having the perpetrator admit what they've done and JB & M taking it seriously, matters.

I'm not sure Josh was asking for help. I don't think he saw himself as a sexual predator unable to control his urges. I think he was fessing up that he did something wrong. 

Oh, absolutely. My very first reaction when the In Touch story broke, after the initial horror, was pleasant surprise that JB and Michelle believed that the girls were being abused and not ignoring it. As badly as they handled it, that was still more than a lot of parents do.

The story has been pretty consistent that Josh started out touching the girls in their sleep, confessed to that, and then escalated several months later after his initial punishment. Both the police report and the Megyn Kelly interview bear that out, though JB and Michelle completely glossed over the second round of abuse in that interview (that was the, "a little bit under the clothes but only for a couple of seconds" part).

I don't think Josh was thinking of himself as a sexual predator, if that concept is even exists in that belief system, but he did know that he was committing a sin and confessed.

[laurakaye]

Take a kid with some possibly inherent issues, anoint him Crown Prince of the Family, slap his hands away from himself while at the same time he gets to watch his parents breed openly like rabbits....that's a recipe for one seriously messed up human being.  I both loathe him and pity him.  And I hate JB and Michelle for how they did a massive, permanent disservice to every single one of their children.

[Fosca]

And add a religion where if a man strays it's a woman's fault for [insert reason here] and not his, and you get a situation where young girls are blamed for letting their brother fondle them because they didn't protect themselves enough.  Or tempted him.  Or something.  Blech.

[madpsych78]

When was Josh slapped/disciplined for masturbating (not that I'm surprised, but I don't remember that being part of the story)?

 

[SMama]

I don’t think it was Josh. IIRC the rumor mill never made clear which kid it was, but I think sex pest was out of the home by that time (married). Who knows if the incident even happened. 

[Zella]

2 hours ago, SMama said:

I don’t think it was Josh. IIRC the rumor mill never made clear which kid it was, but I think sex pest was out of the home by that time (married). Who knows if the incident even happened. 

I wonder if it was Josiah. (Just based on how they seemed to have ALERT-ed the shit out of him.)

[emmawoodhouse]

13 minutes ago, Zella said:

I wonder if it was Josiah. (Just based on how they seemed to have ALERT-ed the shit out of him.)

That sounds plausible. Josiah was definitely broken after his 9 months at ALERT.