Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[Literata]

I was watching the episode last night that involves Smuggar and Anna taking the kids to Anna's first midwife appointment for baby #4, and I caught a sweet moment I'd missed the first time around. The midwife had given MacKynzie the doppler so she could hear the baby's heartbeat, and when she heard it, she looked up at her dad with a look of absolute wonder on her little face. And he reacted much the same way to her -- you could tell he was tickled that she was so thrilled.

 

Once in a while, we see signs of humanity in these people. I think it's clear Smuggar and Anna love their kids, which makes it all the more disappointing that they seem to be on the road to having way too many of them. I dread seeing MacKynzie's sense of wonder turn to, "Oh, great -- another buddy."

[Darknight]

Why does Joshanna turn everything into a political debate? Anna posted very child should be able to say happy mothers day and wrote on twitter don't abort. All over both their social media accounts is either abortion or gay marriage.

[zenme]

Comment taken to another thread.

Edited May 14, 2015 by zenme

[GEML]

Eh, part of Josh's job is fundraising, and that means making things political. It's boring, but it pays their bills.

[Emme]

Maybe that's the same school that the Dullards will allow Izzy to attend.

Great! He could be the first generation to portray their mascot, "Pious Pete."

[Sew Sumi]

Taken from the "Having a ..." episode thread w/r/t Josh's finances/donations/charity:

 

I think part of the reason JB formed their own church was to avoid tithing. Hejust that cheap, and at the time, they weren't flush with money like they are now. Of course, they were off the charts with the Gothardism, but I am convinced that money played a significant part in making that decision. Especially when they were in the Johnson Rd. home; they likely claimed that home on their taxes as an exemption. I know they did not extend this to the TTH, but they didn't worship there for long  before moving to the property warehouses/airplane hangars/off-site, soooper seeeekrit locales. I'm sure that they ARE claiming exemptions on whatever property they're using these days. 

 

Smuggar grew up with that influence, and the ring of bankruptcy law in his head. I think he's actually cheaper than Anna. She may buy thrift store stuff on camera, but the kids have been spotted in many, many of-the-season, brand new outfits. She obviously also buys their food on the cheap; there is money to buy "healthy choices" (sorry, making fun of Smuggar's old IG food pics), but looking at them, they don't seem to be eating that way. They're far too young to be running to fat, especially Smugs, where there is no observed family history of it, aside from Aunt Deanna (reasons for her obesity are unknown, could be medical, disability, etc).

[BitterApple]

When Josh filmed that courtship Q&A with Josiah he looked like he'd put on at least forty pounds since the weight loss challenge last year. I think Anna had slimmed down quite a bit before M#4 and the kids look healthy, so my guess is Josh eats a ton of fast food and junk food snacks while he's at work.

[JenCarroll]

Sure, it's not like anyone ever taught him about nutrition.

[irisheyes]

Sure, it's not like anyone ever taught him about nutrition.

Gothard didn't make a Wisdom Book about that.

Edited May 16, 2015 by irisheyes

[RazzleberryPie]

Sure, it's not like anyone ever taught him about nutrition.

Except for the professional personal trainer and chef that have shown up a few times. Remember the trips to the farmer's market and Anna making Salmon? Josh is overweight due to bad eating habits and lack of exercise. A 27 year old man with no health issues, a decent income, a wife who is home all day to make meals from scratch, and access to a wide variety of farmer's markets, co-ops, grocery stores, gyms, parks, their yard, etc., should not be that overweight if he's making any effort to eat right and exercise moderately.

[GEML]

I actually think there isn't enough to eat in the TTH excerpt for JB.

[cmr2014]

I don't think that there are regular meals at the TTH. From what I've seen, the kids kind of wander around and grab some food when they want to eat. I imagine that the girls cook meals from time to time, but when they are shooting, or traveling, everyone just eats what they can find.

 

I also think that there was genuine food scarcity when Josh was growing up. In the early specials, I remember them unpacking bags of donated groceries -- love offerings. 

 

So, it may be a combination of those two things: he probably eats too often -- whenever food is available, and eats whatever is available. I could easily see him eating donuts in the office after eating breakfast at home, eating a super-sized "value" meal at lunch, and grabbing snacks from office vending machines in the afternoon before going home and eating a nice healthy dinner.

 

I also wonder what they do in the evenings. Most of the things that the rest of us might do don't apply here. Anna has already made dinner when Josh comes home, so he might help clean up. They are not going to watch television or read. There is no homework to do. The kids aren't involved in any outside activities. Maybe they snack in the evenings, too?

[Absolom]

Josh and family may be watching TV or DVDs in the evening.  He's shown a considerable increase in pop culture knowledge since they got married.

[GEML]

It's DC - he probably doesn't get home until at least 7, maybe later. They eat dinner together and then clean up, put kids to bed. Even by Duggar standards the kids may go to bed at 9-10 in DC because the day goes so long. Depends on the morning schedule. If Josh doesn't have to be at work until 10ish, he and Anna may watch TV until midnight. They likely watch something. I agree they are more pop culture aware. I don't think they enjoy being uninformed and Josh doesn't intend to make the mistakes his father made and play country bumpkin.

[Skittl1321]

Do they realize that it's actually a reveal of the baby's sex, not gender? I hate continuing to hear this term used.

In their world view these are identical concepts.  The idea that they might not be the same is just not possible.

[JenCarroll]

Also, sex is a dirty word.

[GEML]

Plus, no one calls it a sex reveal that I've ever heard. So why we would expect the Duggars to of all people...

[RazzleberryPie]

I don't think that there are regular meals at the TTH. From what I've seen, the kids kind of wander around and grab some food when they want to eat. I imagine that the girls cook meals from time to time, but when they are shooting, or traveling, everyone just eats what they can find.

 

I also think that there was genuine food scarcity when Josh was growing up. In the early specials, I remember them unpacking bags of donated groceries -- love offerings. 

 

So, it may be a combination of those two things: he probably eats too often -- whenever food is available, and eats whatever is available. I could easily see him eating donuts in the office after eating breakfast at home, eating a super-sized "value" meal at lunch, and grabbing snacks from office vending machines in the afternoon before going home and eating a nice healthy dinner.

They've admitted that, despite that huge industrial kitchen and all those 'domestic goddess' Susie Homemaker daughters, that they mostly graze all day from the 'snack fridge.' I think they occasionally prepare quick breakfasts when they're getting ready to leave for somewhere, or when the cameras are rolling, but in interviews the Howlers have said they eat pudding, Kraft cheese slices, pickles, cereal, etc.

 

Why they don't have regular meals of 'real food', is beyond my comprehension. You have how many teen/adult kids who can at least make some sandwiches and a salad, cut up some fruit, geez, make SPAGHETTI, and your kids are grazing? What is the point of all these people home all day, if they're not at least making sure everyone is eating? 

 

If there was a food shortage during the pre-TLC days, and 'love offerings' of food were donated, that's the #1 sign that YOU NEED TO STOP ACTIVELY TRYING TO HAVE MORE KIDS. This isn't some 3rd world country where you can't find methods of birth control that don't involve the pill. 

 

A food shortage is just really, really, sad. It's not great to have a fridge full of junk food for your post-toddler to adult kids to graze from, but to just not have enough food available to feed any of your kids is sad.

[anony mouse]

They've admitted that, despite that huge industrial kitchen and all those 'domestic goddess' Susie Homemaker daughters, that they mostly graze all day from the 'snack fridge.' I think they occasionally prepare quick breakfasts when they're getting ready to leave for somewhere, or when the cameras are rolling, but in interviews the Howlers have said they eat pudding, Kraft cheese slices, pickles, cereal, etc.

Why they don't have regular meals of 'real food', is beyond my comprehension. You have how many teen/adult kids who can at least make some sandwiches and a salad, cut up some fruit, geez, make SPAGHETTI, and your kids are grazing? What is the point of all these people home all day, if they're not at least making sure everyone is eating?

If there was a food shortage during the pre-TLC days, and 'love offerings' of food were donated, that's the #1 sign that YOU NEED TO STOP ACTIVELY TRYING TO HAVE MORE KIDS. This isn't some 3rd world country where you can't find methods of birth control that don't involve the pill.

A food shortage is just really, really, sad. It's not great to have a fridge full of junk food for your post-toddler to adult kids to graze from, but to just not have enough food available to feed any of your kids is sad.

That's what blows my mind. I never understood a the packaged foods. If I had a brood like that, there'd be tons of bulk foods - rice and beans, spaghetti, homemade bread every day, canning your own produce etc. You'd save money and eat healthier. The snacking of junk 24/7 has to be so costly.

[RazzleberryPie]

That's what blows my mind. I never understood a the packaged foods. If I had a brood like that, there'd be tons of bulk foods - rice and beans, spaghetti, homemade bread every day, canning your own produce etc. You'd save money and eat healthier. The snacking of junk 24/7 has to be so costly.

They did show Jinger showing somebody how to grind some kind of grain to bake bread, and she seemed to know what she was doing - and seemed to be enjoying it. So at some point, they've made their own bread.

 

But I completely agree with you and understand what you're saying. With all those people home all day and all evening, why can't they prep meals, grow a garden, etc. - ESPECIALLY since they emphasize the girls becoming homemakers and SAHMs, and the boys being able to provide. Provide by gardening and cooking.  Jessa and Jill may be out of the house, but there are younger kids who are now at the age or past the age when Jana, etc., started cooking. A really good way for all those teenage boys to burn some energy and learn some practical skills is to build some raised bed gardens and grow some veggies. 

 

When they travel, and I doubt all 19 are travelling together more than a few times per year, get some volunteers to come and water your garden. If they let people come and do laundry or whatever, surely there are some fans who would love to water gardens. 

[JoanArc]

 

They did show Jinger showing somebody how to grind some kind of grain to bake bread, and she seemed to know what she was doing - and seemed to be enjoying it. So at some point, they've made their own bread.

For awhile Gothard demanded his followers, well, the women, make whole wheat bread from scratch daily. So it's not like it was their idea.

[NikSac]

I actually think there isn't enough to eat in the TTH excerpt for JB.

 

I've wondered about this too. It seems like they all put on weight as soon as they get away from the TTH. I have wondered if it was sort of the normal "relationship comfort weight" (for lack of a better phrase), their age when they leave the house, or if it's that they can finally get as much food as they want to eat.

[Kcat1971]

I just recently watched the Gender Reveal episode and noticed something that might be worth mentioning.  Anna was teaching Mackynzie using "Math U See" materials.  It is a homeschool math program that is stand alone, not part of a religious curriculum.  It's actually quite a good program.  I thought it was interesting because it implies a few things: 1. They intend to homeschool. 2. They are willing to invest in some decent materials to do so. 3. Not all of their homeschool materials are religiously based.  If they are going to homeschool I view this as a good sign that they are going to take it seriously.  

[Literata]

they can finally get as much food as they want to eat

 

In one of Jill and Derick's first THs after the wedding, he teased her about no longer having to hide in the bathroom with a plate of food to make sure she didn't miss out. So maybe there's something to that.

I always have to laugh when I see Anna cooking. I'm sure she's good at recycling leftovers, but she cooks as if they already have 19 kids.

Edited May 18, 2015 by Literata

[GEML]

I mentioned before that Anna took some college level classes before she was married to be a good home schooling teacher. And I really think she probably is. Given that we are now in a second generation, some of the kinks have been worked out, and a serious teacher can prepare with some confidence. Of course, as with anything ideological (and I would include public educators and private ones here too) there will always be those who insist on ideology over what actually works for the children under their care, but I don't think that Anna will fall under that category. Especially DC Anna, who's children will need to compare to some very well educated children.

[ChocolateAddict]

I think that living in DC will also prompt Anna to take homeschooling more seriously.  Unlike the original 19, the Ms are going to be socialising with other kids in the playground or wherever.  While Michelle didn't really seem to care about how behind her children are in their speech, I think that Anna would be embarrassed. If MacKynzie goes around saying "Michael and me" when she is ten (like I have seen some Howlers doing) it will really stand out in DC.  Like GEML said, Anna seems prepared to teach from a proper curriculum and give her kids the best education she can.    

[JenCarroll]

I think the problem with that is that she's so poorly educated herself, and so completely lacking in critical thinking skills, that I doubt her ability to choose good materials and to be able to help them with anything on a higher level. I'm delighted to hear she's using a reputable math program, and I hope whoever recommended it to her is able to keep doing that. And I hope that contact with other moms in DC will help her get a better grasp of how much there is to learn.

[GEML]

The nice thing about the DC area is that if she wants to, there are all kinds of organizations and extracurricular groups she can tap into. When she doesn't know something more advanced, there are subject matter experts to help. It's far more co-operative than anything she would have had access to (or, perhaps more likely, been permitted to make use of) in AR.

[Fuzzysox]

What the what is this article?? True or not????? 

 

http://radaronline.com/exclusives/2015/05/josh-duggar-accused-underage-sex-abuse-report/

[ChocolateAddict]

I've read some crazy sh*t but that article may be a finals contender.  My first reaction was that InTouch and RadarOnline don't exactly have an exemplary track record when it comes to ethical or honest reporting so I'm inclined to take it with a grain (or bowl) of salt.  That said, it is a very big claim to make so there may be a smigion of truth in there and they did actually name a police officer.  But all in all, I'm not going to judge Josh based on a reality magazine story with no real details beyond "sources".  

[IndianPaintbrush]

The Daily Mail is reporting it too.  I know, not exactly the New York Times.  But I remember people discussing this years ago.  Nobody knew the details, but something about Josh and "sin in the camp."  Good for Jim Bob if he really turned him in.

[OhioMom]

The Daily Mail is reporting it too.  I know, not exactly the New York Times.  But I remember people discussing this years ago.  Nobody knew the details, but something about Josh and "sin in the camp."  Good for Jim Bob if he really turned him in.

I've heard the stories, too.  What I find particularly telling, though, is that we have no idea exactly whose bedroom he was leaving. Friend of the family, or family member?  Well...I guess it would be difficult to be a family member, what with the dormitory style sleeping and all.  Was this before,or after the current house they're in?

[JennyMominFL]

The Daily Mail is reporting it too.  I know, not exactly the New York Times.  But I remember people discussing this years ago.  Nobody knew the details, but something about Josh and "sin in the camp."  Good for Jim Bob if he really turned him in.

And then supported his marraige to an innicent young girl who barely knew him.

 

I have a tough time believing this though

Edited May 19, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[OhioMom]

And then supported his marraige to an innicent young girl who barely knew him.

 

I have a tough time believing this though

I don't, really.  I mean, can you imagine the suppression those kids live under?  And being told that  their every (normal) curiosity is something bad or wrong?  It was a trainwreck waiting to happen.   If it did. 

[Saylii]

IIRC when I first heard about it, whatever happened was consensual between Josh and the girl, but JB was pissed because it made him look bad to Jim Holt. JB reported it to the police to try and fix things with Holt.

[JennyMominFL]

I don't, really.  I mean, can you imagine the suppression those kids live under?  And being told that  their every (normal) curiosity is something bad or wrong?  It was a trainwreck waiting to happen.   If it did. 

I just can't believe Jim Bob would turn him in. I think they would deal with it in their own "godly" way. 

[Sew Sumi]

The TLC facebook page is in full-on delete and deny mode. Something must be up behind the scenes, because they aren't normally so quick to react.

 

If this is a false allegation, InTouch (I think they were first with it) could be in for some hefty slander (or is it libel when written?) litigation against them.

Edited May 19, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[Fuzzysox]

IIRC when I first heard about it, whatever happened was consensual between Josh and the girl, but JB was pissed because it made him look bad to Jim Holt. JB reported it to the police to try and fix things with Holt.

Wasn't it rumored that there was a pending engagement with a Holt girl for Josh? Or am I thinking of the wrong family?

I don't, really.  I mean, can you imagine the suppression those kids live under?  And being told that  their every (normal) curiosity is something bad or wrong?  It was a trainwreck waiting to happen.   If it did. 

I can see "sin in the camp" with any kid that wasn't allowed to do anything that we consider completely normal like dating and kissing. Marrying a kid off to the first person they are allowed to talk to is beyond weird. I can't see the littles having to deal with Gothard shit as they get older. Makes no sense. You can see how many shits JoyAnna gives during bible time. She wants to be free. Grandma raised her and grandma knows what a godly life without stoopid Gothard crap is all about. I'm sure she has taught Joy a thing or two.

[Saylii]

Wasn't it rumored that there was a pending engagement with a Holt girl for Josh? Or am I thinking of the wrong family?

I can see "sin in the camp" with any kid that wasn't allowed to do anything that we consider completely normal like dating and kissing. Marrying a kid off to the first person they are allowed to talk to is beyond weird. I can't see the littles having to deal with Gothard shit as they get older. Makes no sense. You can see how many shits JoyAnna gives during bible time. She wants to be free. Grandma raised her and grandma knows what a godly life without stoopid Gothard crap is all about. I'm sure she has taught Joy a thing or two.

I believe he was in pre-courting mode with one of the Holt daughters, but it was never confirmed. We also never knew how "serious" it was. I always had the impression it was really more of an arranged marriage for JB to hitch his wagon to Holt.

Again, this is from memory, but I recall Josh getting to second base with a girl that he was with when the Holts & Duggars were traveling together on a political tour around Arkansas with a few other families. There may have been a campground involved and everyone was in tents? Holt lost the election and basically blamed the Duggars (and Josh's wandering hands) for that loss. Then Josh went to ALERT and JB tried to hitch his wagon to the Huckabees.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Saylii

[Vaysh]

The whole thing sounds strange (the reporting officer got arrested for child porn?), but would a magazine no matter how sleazy, publish something as serious as an accusation of underage sex abuse if they weren't sure they could get away with it? I mean, Catgate or Gungate yes, those got people up in arms but this is HUGE. If they have no hard evidence they could easily get sued for libel and rightly so.

 

As for Jim Bob turning his own son in, I'm in two minds. If Josh really did something truly 'inappropriate' with an underage girl then I applaud JB for it, these things get swept under the rug far too often. However, considering how warped this family's ideas about pre-marital sex are, who knows what really happened. Josh was underage (or a minor at least) at the time of the alleged abuse, maybe he just sneaked in and made out with his girlfriend and JB freaked out and decided to teach him a lesson without considering the long-term consequences.

 

I dislike this family in many ways but I genuinely hope this article isn't true.

 

As for Josh's career in conservative politics, I think it just died, true story or not.

[galax-arena]

InTouch is hardly a bastion of journalistic integrity - and I won't even start on the Daily Fail - but I feel like this is something that they wouldn't just spin out of whole cloth, because that'd be a lawsuit waiting to happen. It's one thing to make up bullshit about who's dating whom, another thing entirely to make up bullshit about someone being investigated for sexual assault. But maybe I'm giving InTouch too much credit?

I just can't believe Jim Bob would turn him in. I think they would deal with it in their own "godly" way.

Yeah, this is the part that I have a hard time believing, too. 

Edited May 19, 2015 by galax-arena

[Sew Sumi]

I believe he was in pre-courting mode with one of the Holt daughters, but it was never confirmed. We also never knew how "serious" it was. I always had the impression it was really more of an arranged marriage for JB to hitch his wagon to Holt.

Again, this is from memory, but I recall Josh getting to second base with a girl that he was with when the Holts & Duggars were traveling together on a political tour around Arkansas with a few other families. There may have been a campground involved and everyone was in tents? Holt lost the election and basically blamed the Duggars (and Josh's wandering hands) for that loss. Then Josh went to ALERT and JB tried to hitch his wagon to the Huckabees.

The meat of that was the "Sin in the Camp" story that Razing Ruth pretty much pulled out of her ass, likely after seeing Josh with his head shaved in that early special. He likely DID go to ALERT, but we don't know why. Maybe at that point, the Duggars were so into the vat of Gothard Kook-aid that they planned to send all of their kids to ALERT and/or JTTH. I do believe that all of them, aside from JD who may have gone between specials, down to Joy have been to one or the other. Most of the girls have been multiple times.

Edited May 20, 2015 by Sew Sumi

[JenCarroll]

Well, the ROL report is so unclear I can't even make sense of it. So until I get a clear presentation of what the allegation was, I'm neutral on this. We don't know enough. There's a huge variation among the acts that could be covered by that law.

JB turning him in to the authorities sounds odd to me; I'd have thought he'd do everything in his power to cover it up. He still had to get the kid married off, you know? But I can't really claim to understand Jim Bob Duggar's thought processes in any situation.

[neural-plasticity]

http://starcasm.net/archives/316103

I heard this was "old news," but I've never heard this story before reading it today. Interesting...

[NikSac]

I don't, really.  I mean, can you imagine the suppression those kids live under?  And being told that  their every (normal) curiosity is something bad or wrong?  It was a trainwreck waiting to happen. If it did. 

 

So true. Plus do these kids really not do the ol' "play doctor" thing?  I mean yeah I'm sure it's not exactly sanctioned by the Duggars but don't most kids do this?  Or was I just nuts?  Did JB see Josh walking out of a girl's room with a Doctor kit and then called the cops?  The whole thing seems odd.

[IndianPaintbrush]

JB turning him in to the authorities sounds odd to me; I'd have thought he'd do everything in his power to cover it up. He still had to get the kid married off, you know? But I can't really claim to understand Jim Bob Duggar's thought processes in any situation.

If the girl's angry father really was involved, I can see why Jim Bob reported it.  He's staked his reputation on raising children with old-fashioned, godly values.  Covering it up makes him look really shady within Gothard circles, and damages all the rest of his kids' future marriage prospects.  Plus I can see him wanting to make an example of Josh for the other kids, as in "see, this is what happens when you dare to touch someone who isn't your spouse."

[galax-arena]

Covering it up makes him look really shady within Gothard circles,

In a lot of fundy/IFB circles, followers are heavily discouraged from bringing suit/charges against each other. The gist is that a lot of churches don't want outside authorities involved because it can then cast a negative light on their group and cast them in disrepute. Many IFB churches would rather keep it in house, so to speak. Which is why I have a problem believing that JB would readily go to the authorities. 

 

Then again, I don't think this applies to all IFB groups, so maybe Gothard never emphasized this. 

 

(And I'm not saying that IFB churches are unusual compared to other denominations in trying to sweep stuff like abuse under the rug. It's just that they're very open about discouraging believers from taking each other to court.) 

Edited May 20, 2015 by galax-arena

[HumblePi]

The whole Duggar mentality about sex and sexuality is really pissing me off because the little kids are now adults with sexual feelings. Okay, so Jim Bob and Michelle made a decision FOR THEMSELVES to be sexual rabbits and have sex all the time. For Bob's pleasure and for Michelle's mental illness that makes her crave having babies. But the minds of these children are being twisted and manipulated in an unnatural way. Most all animal species including humans are sexual beings by nature. Repression of sexuality isn't only harmful physically but it can possibly be damaging emotionally.

 

There's such a vast difference between ordering a child 'don't feel desire' or 'don't think of your own sexual feelings' rather than saying 'yes, you are feeling sexuality as you should be, it's natural and normal, so let's talk about it'. Parents need to communicate these things with their kids and be honest with them. Just  giving them orders such as 'don't hug, don't kiss, don't think of sex' is just too much to ask of any child. This is exactly why these women fall in 'love' so quickly. They confused the 'need' for sexual contact with love. They'll live their lives never opening up completely sexually, experimentation or going 'outside the box' will be too out of the realm of possibility between them because their spouses are just as repressed as they are. This is the kind of stuff that takes years of therapy to undo.

 

Somewhere along the way, one or more of these kids are going to be totally messed up in their heads because of this. And I don't care what anyone else thinks, there's bound to be at least one or two that are gay and repressing that too, and always will repress it.

[BitterApple]

How would ROL have gotten access to a police report where both suspect and victim were minors? The "sin in the camp" rumor has been floating around for years on the boards. I'm giving Josh the benefit of the doubt until I see more convincing evidence than a Daily Fail story.

[CofCinci]

Josh was under 18 at the time too, right? Poor kid probably side hugged wrong.