Josh & Anna Smuggar: A Series of Unfortunate Events

[corgi]

Absolutely disagree with this.

Some people cannot forgive the wrong done to them, and that is perfectly within their right.

I had something happen to me when I was 11, and aft telling, I was able to learn to forgive. If I didn't, I fear I may have ended up like my other relative who was also a victim: an alcoholic man jumper. That doesn't mean I learn to forget.

Many drug addicts can trace their use to trying to dull the pain, because they didn't get the help they needed - in whatever shape that is.

To make such a broad statement that any kind of molester should "never" be forgiven, doesn't take into account each one's needs to heal.

No one should ever be forced to forgive. And really, no 16ye old should be paraded around their church forced to state their crime was either. if the victims involved forgive Josh privately, and if they wanted to tell Josh they forgave him or not, that is their own business.

 

As someone who was also sexually abused by a family member, I can say that I chose to forgive the person who abused me because until then, I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders and in doing so, started to find peace with the situation and the ability to put it behind me and move on.  I didn't do it for them at all, I did it for me.  

 

However, this came after a lot of self-evaluation/therapy and not as the result of any kind of religious dogma.  I'm not sure that would be the case with regard to the victims in this case.                                                                   

[ladle]

I keep thinking, is there really no crime Jim Bob and Michelle can be charged with, here?  They allowed a predator to live in the same house as their daughters and did not seem to take any precautions (other than prayer?), did not even put a lock on their daughters' door, and from what I am reading, the offenses then occurred again and again over a span of time.  Does that not rise to the level of child endangerment, at the very least?  Or has the statute of limitations passed for that as well?

[sigmaforce86]

TLC may have stopped airing them but the episodes are still available at TLC on demand - so I went back and watched the Erin Hill interview which I'd skipped when it was on (thought it would be boring).  It's harder to watch it now knowing what was about to hit the fan.............. but I wanted to see what people meant when they said it was tense and there were some weird looks.  I think I saw it most in Anna, her face changed when she thought the camera wasn't on her and she did a lot of glancing off camera at something or someone

 

Alison Arngrim linked, on Facebook, to this article that I think is pretty good - it's basically what if Josh had come out as gay instead what would the family, friend and political reaction be then.

 

http://www.deepsouthdaily.com/2015/05/if-josh-duggar-had-announced-that-hes-gay.html

Edited May 24, 2015 by sigmaforce86

[Granny58]

I hope one good thing that may come out of all this is that the kids drop the whole Gothardite lifestyle.  Christian is fine (I'm Christian), fundamental is fine (I'm verging), but cloistering yourself away from normal human interactions is NOT fine.  You can have a spiritual household without having to resort to being the scary mom in "Carrie."  As a religious, verging on fundamental mom I told my son, "don't treat other people as playthings, at a minimum if you have sex with somebody make sure you love her, and if you get someone pregnant, meh, there's worse things that could happen."  I admit...I haven't read all the details and don't know much about this situation, except that Josh fondled his sisters.  That's ALL I know.  Don't even know who.  However, if I had to guess I would assume Jessa was in the mix and that MAY account for her mildly FU attitude to everybody.  

[merylinkid]

I don't see how the show can continue without JOsh.   The whole point of the show is that JimBob and Michelle had 19 kids and they all travel in a herd.   You can't do that if 1/19 of the kids can't ever be shown.    You can't be bragging about having 19 kids, like it is some amazing feat if you can only show 18 kids.   You can't have it be about how close they are and do everything together if one kid can never be seen.    

 

They would have to change the focus of the show completely and get a new shctick.   Except JB doesn't have any schtick except I had 19 kids because God wanted me too.   He's too uneducated and too focused on his moral superiority to have anything else.  

 

ETA:   This family is not going to drop Gothardism now that this has come out.   In fact they may go even deeper.   Their religion teaches them it is not their fault, but that the girls' defrauded their brother somehow.   Parents hands washed of culpability.   Also, it shows they were right to shun the outside world.   The outside world found out their dirty secret and is not being nice and "forgiving" about it.   Therefore, outside world bad.   You can't look at this how a rational person would.   These people do not think rationally.   If they did, they would never have joined up with Gothardism in the first place.  

 

As for forgiveness.   FOr me personally to forgive someone that person has to say more than sorry.    They have try to fix the mess they made.  They have NOT doing it again.   Not saying Josh did do it again.   But his smugness over the years shows he still thinks he is better than everyone else.   Even his statement -- albeit written by a crisis PR person -- does not show he learned anything from this.   Until then, he might get my understanding at how this happened, but he sure as hell doesn't get my forgiveness for messing up his sister's lives. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by merylinkid

[Cherrio]

This post is not about what Anna should or should not do, but rather that she is not "stuck" as I have read several times.

 

Women, hundreds of women with children everyday flee their homes with nowhere to go.  Their futures with no family or resources to help will be hard, but there ARE places they can go.

 I just would like to not keep reading that women are stuck and have to remain somewhere they do not want to be.   

[NextIteration]

I really appreciated this opinion piece from someone that has been there done that.

 

I found it insightful regarding something that I just can't wrap my mind around, good linking in it as well.

 

I know I shouldn't fault Oprah, but I can't help feeling like she could have found a way to put these people on blast, somehow.

[Bella]

As someone who was also sexually abused by a family member, I can say that I chose to forgive the person who abused me because until then, I carried the weight of the world on my shoulders and in doing so, started to find peace with the situation and the ability to put it behind me and move on.  I didn't do it for them at all, I did it for me.  

 

However, this came after a lot of self-evaluation/therapy and not as the result of any kind of religious dogma.  I'm not sure that would be the case with regard to the victims in this case.                                                                   

 

I'm *not* a religious person, though I do have some beliefs. Through that filter, here's my take on the whole "forgiveness" issue.

 

It's like letting go of hate. About 30 years ago, I had the stereotypical boss-from-hell. She made my life as miserable as she possibly could and then some. I was only at the job for about 2 years, but that boss occupied my mind for a lot longer, until I realized that by hanging onto the hurt and anger, I was prolonging her power over me. By understanding that, I was able to let go of my negative feelings towards her. That in no way means I excuse her or consider her anything other than a miserable excuse for a human being. But I finally stopped giving mental and emotional energy to her. In 2013, I had another situation arise in which a person lied to me and treated me very poorly. Once I cut free from all ties, I gave myself 1 month to feel the anger, and then I began working on getting her out of my head. She now has no more power over me, and none of my mental or emotional energy. I would cross the street to avoid her, and I'd tell DH that I spotted her, but I would then let it go.

 

I think true forgiveness, not the forced "forgiveness" inflicted on the Duggar girls, is probably similar. It's done more to heal yourself than to lie to yourself and others about any "goodness" in the other person. The shallow facsimile of forgiveness shoved onto the Duggar girls is nothing like that. 

 

YMMV.

[GEML]

I think it is quite possible that Mike and Guinn Seewald and perhaps posting on behalf of Jessa and Ben. Or, at least, they are in dialog with them, and would not be posting if their children did not wish them to. Mike Seewald had come to their aid twice before - on behalf of young marriage, and when Jessa was getting Internet heat for her holocaust tweet, so I'm not surprised. They have both shown themselves very protective of their children, including Jessa. I believe if she were in strong disagreement or believed they were making the situation worse and asked them to stop, they would.

And while JB used the term "church elders" I want to say again that I do not believe that meant the Elders within the Church of Jim Bob. I absolutely believe that meant the important members of the Gothard hierarchy, for whom, as a church leader, Jim Bob would have been under authority. And I believe those would have included Mr. Keller and Gil Bates. I now find it interesting that the Keller family not only married a daughter and perhaps was relieved the burden of providing a dowery for their act of marrying her to someone with such a past (and I believe she knew at least SOME - it seems to have been known in ATI circles and perhaps explains the modest marriage choices for the girls) but Gil Bates got a shot of a TV show of his own and a new house. I'm wondering who else was on that Elders council and what else they may have been given as incentives over the past ten years.

[Christi]

He fondeled more than his sister right? The report says at least 2 familes

[pinkelephant3]

The sad thing is that with their religion and the forgiveness and repentance fixes everything feeling, that to them josh is not a preditor and they will not be afraid to have him around their children/grandchildren. He asked for forgiveness so it's fine and over. But to all of us who know that a preditor isn't fixed by catching the holy ghost are scared for all the children that come into contact with him.

[truthtalk2014]

I keep thinking about Derrick going to work next week (since he is the only one with an actual job) and all his coworkers having heard about the molester brother in law.

 

He'll probably have to take some more time off.

[Happyfatchick]

He fondled his LITTLE SISTERS.

LITTLE LITTLE LITTLE!BABY INNOCENT SHELTERED SISTERS!!!

12,11,10,9, 5

That's the ages of the girls in the house at that moment. I'm sorry for the graphics, but What the WHAT?????

That's where I get stuck.

DISGUSTING.

Eta: I was responding to Aja's post but there were 3 more by the time I got done. You guys are FAST!

Edited May 24, 2015 by Happyfatchick

[Christi]

He fondeled more than his sister right? The report says at least 2 families.

What about the Non Duggar abuse victims...dont they want actual justice? Rather than JB's self emposed Family Justice

[Aja]

He fondled at least one more girl outside of the family, at least according to the police report, or that's my understanding. And I am not trying to minimise that at all, but there is something extra-sick about doing that to your siblings, particularly siblings that you have more power and authority over than the vast majority of older brothers have on their little sisters. VILE. And makes me wonder about the mental health of everyone coming out to defend them. 

[Bella]

He fondled his LITTLE SISTERS.

LITTLE LITTLE LITTLE!BABY INNOCENT SHELTERED SISTERS!!!

12,11,10,9, 5

That's the ages of the girls in the house at that moment. I'm sorry for the graphics, but What the WHAT?????

That's where I get stuck.

DISGUSTING.

 

Exactly.

 

Plus, official mod note part:

Yes, there was at least one other victim outside the family, which we mostly don't discuss because it leads to attempts at identifying this person, and the mods and site admin here don't want that. But yes, there was at least one victim from outside the family. 

[SoSueMe]

I'm sure it's been said better, so hard to keep up, but my thought on forgiveness:

It is a lofty goal and probably benefits the one forgiving in the long run. I think it is wrong to forgive for wrong committed against other than yourself, the wronged person has the prerogative to forgive or not.

Most important, forgiveness is and should be totally different than failing to hold someone accountable for their wrongdoing.

[autumnh]

You know...when I think about it, Jana always comes across so fragile, quiet etc. Watching the Duggars Dig In special last week, Jana was in tears while talking about Josie's seizure. I mean she not in all of the episodes, there has been mention of her going off to Gothard camp and again..she sometimes comes across me as being broken.

 

She is the oldest daughter yet has never courted, they almost seem like they try to keep her out of the spotlight. Something about it just rubs me the wrong way. I could be entirely wrong but it just feels that way to me.

[SomePity1066]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

 

If Michelle and JB decided to just "pray away" the sins of Josh and sweep the whole thing under the rug, then why, WHY, did they keep doing it when it was obvious that it hadn't stopped ?! In fact, it EXPANDED. More instances. More victims. More girls left to blame themselves for what looks to be a lifetime of shame and self-doubt. And JB and Michelle were...fine with that ?

 

Josh, that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface - he ALWAYS gave off some seriously bad vibes, something that got under my skin or made the hair on the back of my neck stand up, but I could never quite place what it was. At times I thought he must be the kid who masturbates constantly in the shower or is always trying to hide an erection, but who cares ?!?! Teenage boys are horn dogs and that's just the way it is - fine with me.  But this goes so far beyond the feeling you get when someone stands too close to you in an elevator - discomfort and unease. It's physically revolting.

 

With all the revelations come to light now I see his picture and it's like looking at Charles Manson or something - he's just so snug, toasty, and comfy in the knowledge that "Jesus has forgiven him". But has he really ? Don't you have to be actually sorry for what you DID, and not just for getting caught ?

 

Here's my take - My older (and MUCH bigger) sister physically abused me for years, and I'm not talking about bullying or punching me in the arm. She'd choke me until I was unconscious. Lock me in closets for HOURS. Push me down flights of steps. Force me to eat dirt or dog food. My mother was fully aware and laughed it off as "childhood shenanigans" - she was also mentally ill but that's another story. When my father was FINALLY told he immediately separated us, and from then until I finally moved out he protected me and I was never alone with her. He wanted to leave and take me with him but in the 70s who's going to give custody to the father ? My sister went to counseling, which did nothing, but my dad insisted they at least try. My mother continued to behave like nothing had happened, like she'd put a whoopee cushion on my chair instead of beating me until I lost teeth and needed stitches. But thank God I had one normal parent who did his very best to keep me safe. He's gone now, but I continue to love him as my hero and savior, and I miss him every day. In a house simply FILLED with crazy he was my sanity.

 

So that's how it happens - you get a kid who's a "bad seed" and parent/parents who are blind to it, crazy, or directed by some trumped-up cult of patriarchal, misogynistic bullshit and the whole world turns upside-down. The fact the the girls had NO ONE, neither father nor mother, nor grandma, either, apparently, is just so heartbreaking it makes me physically ill. All the feelings of loneliness, betrayal, and probably the constant, unending fear that Josh would just keep moving down the line age-wise with the other girls must have made those poor girls feel like they'd been abandoned by the very God they'd been raised to love and obey. 

 

I hope Josh loses everything. I hope Anna gets away with all the kids and finds support and financial help from OUTSIDE the Gothards so she can start her life over. I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known.

 

And JB and Michelle ? I hope they get old and get stuck in the shittiest horrorshow of a nursing home in existence. They Michelle can say "I have 19 children and I delivered them ALL, and now NONE of them come to visit me..."

[RazzleberryPie]

Just to clarify, there is no unified, nationwide Gothard church. He is an author and speaker, not a minister. Most of his followers belong to various ultra conservative denominations throughout the country, often Independent Fundamental Baptists or home churches, such as the Duggars's home church that now meets in a storage facility. So the church elders would not include Pa Keller, Gil Bates or Gothard. Each of those men belongs to his own local church. I don't believe we know the names of any of the storage facility church members, although I think probably the Querys and Sierra's family are among them. But didn't the Query husband die?

Which explains why JimBob wants his own church, where he is this own counsel and can do whatever the hell he wants with no accountability. JimBob's handling of Josh's perversion also explains to me why Gil Bates, and probably others, have been so reluctant to enter courtships with any of the Duggars. Not because of compromised purity with the girls, but because Jimbob sweeps a sexual predator's actions under the rug and then won't shut up about purity.

 

So Michael Seewold writes, "There is blood in the water and the sharks are in a feeding frenzy. Finally, the Duggar family’s opponents have found what they have been eagerly waiting for: shocking revelations of scandal by Jim Bob and Michelle’s firstborn son, Josh."

 

Well no shit. When the Duggars claim  to hold the moral high ground and actively advocate to deny gay people their basic human rights based on their religious beliefs, you better believe that their opponents are going to pounce when the Duggars show their true colors. The irony here, of course, is that the Duggar family stumbled on the very issue with which they are most vocal and judgmental -- sexual mores. What's that they say about people who live in glass houses?

 

If it were not for the righteous hypocrisy of this clan on sexual matters, I'm not sure this whole thing would be nearly as big a story as it has become.

 

And BTW, Mr. Seewold, the "shocking revelations of scandal" are not just about the firstborn son, Josh. They are also about the community of adults who chose to try to sweep this event under the rug for their own benefit rather than for the benefit of the children affected.

EXACTLY - the Duggar's whole schtick is that they're this huge family that has some sort of moral high ground because they have separated themselves from the evil world, and are Holier than thou. They are national public figures who earn their living from a television show and speaking tours, where they spout about homeschooling, purity, modesty, courting, etc is God's way, all while they have more perversion and sin in their family than the average person who owns a TV or sends kids to public school. Then Michelle and Josh specifically picket and lobby against transgendered people (who could be married Christians) having any rights, because they're disgusting, sinful, perverts. They're reaping what they've sowed.

 

Isn't Anna's father's story that he came to a life of ministry after making mistakes/bad choices when younger? I think I remember reading that on a Keller website. I have no idea the nature of his bad choices, but I don't think the Keller family will be quick to cast Josh out.

They won't. Either Anna's family is sincerely forgiving and believes in 100% rehabilitation from 'sin' or they're using Gothard teaching to justify their own shortcomings. People here have suspected Anna's father may be homosexual, and no need to explain anyone's thoughts on TFDW's sexuality. If Josh repents, he's forgiven. I think they'd be quicker to chastise Anna for wanting to leave (which she hasn't expressed) than they would for Josh admitting he molested his sisters.

That is, I'm really disappointed in Harpo's lack of action in 2006 and since. As I understand it - please correct me if I'm wrong - in 2006 they knew that something had happened in that house. So they canceled their Oprah appearance and alerted Arkansas authorities, exactly as they should.

But then, when nothing happened, they shrugged their shoulders and walked away? And stood by while the Duggars used their political clout to fight against equality for a group of people that Oprah and Harpo would claim to support? That's weak sauce.

I mean, kudos to them for doing as much as they did, but they could have done more, IMO.

I think Harpo Studios acted appropriately and did everything they could. They reported the fax to authorities. They have no idea where the fax came from, and it dealt with minors. Oprah isn't a police officer, counselor, attorney, minister, etc. Reporting is basically all they could do. 

[Happyfatchick]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

 

Josh, that creepy, doughy, pale, fat, fuckface [HAHA!!! Quote of the DAY!!!!!]

 

Here's my take - My older (and MUCH bigger) sister physically abused me for years...When my father was FINALLY told he immediately separated us, and from then until I finally moved out he protected me and I was never alone with her... But thank God I had one normal parent who did his very best to keep me safe. He's gone now, but I continue to love him as my hero and savior, and I miss him every day. In a house simply FILLED with crazy he was my sanity.

 

I hope ALL the kids get the Hell outta dodge, maybe staying with the older girls, married or not, and they can make new lives together with the only REAL mother they've ever known. "

You are my new hero!!! (Move over Wanderwoman/WONDERWOMAN, there's a sister hero on the bench!

At some point, someone Duggar is going to have to address this Avalanche. I can hardly wait.

Re the kids getting out: I have this persistent recurring fantasy of a special being filmed with Jana, Joy and all the younger ones living in a tiny cramped space happy as pigs in poop. Being run like a regular home with people paying attention and loving them to pieces... Keeping their values but living normal. And hey, it's MY fantasy - so Jana is dating (like a DATE!) so she's cooking dinner and giving Joy instructions for the night. (It's spaghetti). And the boys are playing on the couch with an Xbox. And the little girl's room is decorated with Tinkerbell.

Michelle is locked up in a rubber room with no makeup, no curls and no sharp objects while Jim Bob is standing on a street corner in NYC with a a 25 lb. King James shouting sermons at cars in the intersection. People are taking pics of him with their iPhones.

That's my future map.

 

Edited May 24, 2015 by bigskygirl
Last sentence was edited out-way off topic

[Ljohnson1987]

This is more than a mistake, Duggars. Get that through your brainwashed heads.

[backformore]

Ugh! I hate how all of the fundies are lining up to support Josh. So basically you can commit any number of vile acts, but if you repent, you will be forgiven? How convenient! Josh doesn't strike me as the kind of person who has even an ounce of humility. If he had learned one bit from his "mistakes," he might have had the self awareness not to take a very public job preaching about family values. Then again, this is someone whose own father thinks it's a swell idea to put his whole family on camera not long after a major family crisis.

Honestly, reading the support for the Duggars on Facebook, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if they ended up getting their show back. They're not going to learn, grow, or change from this.

Right. I think of it this way - if there was sexual abuse in a family by someone who was, for example atheist, Muslim, transgender, gay, etc.etc...... These same "fundies" would not be talking about repentance and redemption. They would be using it to reinforce their own prejudices and beliefs about sinners.

[CofCinci]

Can we post the Josh memes that are hitting the interwebs or is it "too soon"?  Funny but tasteless.

[bencr]

I really appreciated this opinion piece from someone that has been there done that.

 

I found it insightful regarding something that I just can't wrap my mind around, good linking in it as well.

 

Thanks for the link, NextIteration. The author's comments had a ring of truth to them, and they prompted me to look at this Duggar situation somewhat differently.

 

First, it made it clear to me that these strict fundamentalists have a much different worldview than I do in many more ways than I ever imagined. It's truly like we come from different countries and speak different languages.

 

Second, it made me think the "cover-up" of Josh's sexual assault was less about maintaining the Duggar's status and preserving their TV show, and more about twisting facts and events in a way to support their religious viewpoint and their perception of the role of family (both in terms of sexual role play and power structure). It takes some twisting and creative interpretation of facts, but the Duggar family seems to have made Josh's molestation seem less like a crime that needs to be punished and dealt with and more like a sin that needs to be repented and forgiven -- but also teaches the family important lessons and brings them closer to God.

 

I imagine the Duggar family is shocked that so much of the world sees events so differently from how they see them, and I doubt very much if they are capable of learning any lessons from this.

Edited May 24, 2015 by bencr

[NextIteration]

Right. I think of it this way - if there was sexual abuse in a family by someone who was, for example atheist, Muslim, transgender, gay, etc.etc...... These same "fundies" would not be talking about repentance and redemption. They would be using it to reinforce their own prejudices and beliefs about sinners.

 

BINGO.

 

And for me, that's where all my frustration and anger is coming from.

 

Thank you thread for giving me a safe haven to be pissed in, sorry if I'm dead horsing.

[kathe5133]

I just wrote to the Discovery Network asking them to cancel the show. Prevailed on them to use their consciences, but in case that failed them, pointed out I would only tune into their network to see who the sponsors are so I can stop doing business with them. I feel I have to do something, and that is really all I can do. If more do the same it will carry more weight than 1,000 police reports. But, check this out, after I submitted I reread what I wrote and saw "I will know longer......" Fuck!!!!! I made a mistake. And that is what a "mistake" looks like. If underage vaginas and breasts are involved in an incident, it should never be referred to as a "mistake". Wish I could edit my comment to mention that........

[RazzleberryPie]

OMG, SomePity1066. I'm in tears. Thank God for your dad.

 

And it is indeed so heartbreaking, about those Duggar girls. We always knew their life in that cult wasn't great, but I truly did not suspect their brother had sexually assaulted them. More than one of them. For months and months. 

 

Jesus wept.

I was wrong on multiple occasions, when I said I didn't think the other girls showed signs of being sexually abused. Primarily, Jana, who I just thought was introverted and didn't want a lifetime of babies every 11 months, and Jessa, who I thought was just a controlling bitch who didn't want to look like a clueless newb around a doofy teenage boyfriend.

 

Now I completely see Jana was holding off on courtship because she wants control of her own body, and may want to protect her younger siblings from other potential molestors (there are what, 9 more boys in that house, and if Josh did it, another could attempt to). I see Jessa as being aggressive and bitchy as self-protection, and her reluctance to warm up to Bin as thinking if she gives him any sign of encouragement, she's asking to be raped.

[backformore]

Can we post the Josh memes that are hitting the interwebs or is it "too soon"?  Funny but tasteless.

please do.

Here's the example I used to teach kids about apologizing: take a piece of paper. crumble it up, step on it. Tell it "sorry" then straighten it out. Did "sorry" make everything go back to the way it was before? Does saying the word fix what you did?

That's a better way to teach about repentance than talking about Jesus.

[GEML]

Sigh. Can I just say that there are some Christians out there who DO believe in forgiveness and would NOT separate out other cultures or religions? Because you read through pages and pages of people saying how ridiculous and stupid and forced forgiveness is, and it does make you wonder.

Yes, I get it. The Duggars were unpleasant people who did and said a lot of unpleasant things. But not all of what they believed was stupid, and it is just possible that some of the people involved or who have been in similar situations have found beliefs giving them courage and strength, not making them smaller and weaker.

[truthtalk2014]

After reading the few reactions we have gotten in print, it makes me worry Anna has no out even if she wanted one. The Duggars have always been all about their imagine and right now the most important person to play the Duggar game is Anna. Reguardless of what she is feeling or thinking we will only see Anna happy and standing by her man. I don't think they will make any planned public appearances but she will have to be aware at all times that she is the perfect happy wife and mother. I can't imagine being 7-8 months pregnant with 3 little kids let alone having to watch everything I did when I went to the grocery store. I can't imagine what the plane ride she took Friday was like? All eyes had to be on her and Josh and the kids.

 

After living in rural Utah and seeing many men get power that lack education (even our governor never went to college) , common sense , and qualifications because of religion. I guess it does not surprise me that Jim Bob a high school graduate that sold used cars and won a 2 year 12k a year job as a state rep now suddenly has gained so much power. Because of religious ties? having 19 kids? If anyone actually wants to watch this show again, try it with just sound. I did this a few times and Jim Bob has such a limited use of words and phrases week after week, yet he is so influential he can call in big favors in government and law enforcement?

 

Do you know where they were going?  

 

Watching without sound sounds like Chinese water torture.  Then again, watching with is pretty freaking bad as well.

 

Speaking of Anna and her undying support of Joshlester, I wonder if she stops to look at her little girl Mack and thinks that Josh molested someone her same age.  

[sandyskyblue]

I am so thankful to have this platform to be able to share thoughts with others and I respect the opinions and all of the posters on here...I have read a few comments about Oprah and what she possibly should have done, I would like to agree with those who have already commented that she did exactly what was called for....and thank goodness she did or else who knows if what Josh did would have ever came out...I don't believe that piling on Oprah serves any purpose, I feel that the bulk of the blame should be focused where it belongs: on Michelle and Jim Bob...

[Aja]

For me, I'm all for whatever gets people through their trials as long as it doesn't hurt anyone else. But I just feel that forgiveness is a personal choice, not something you have forced on you so that your parents can make millions off of you. That's what gets me. The hypocrisy, the righteous indignation. Their beliefs hurt others. Everyone from the groups of people they're trying to take rights away from to their own family members. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by Aja

[Missy Vixen]

I keep coming up with more and more things that make me furious about this whole thing - it's like an endless river of anger and sadness...

SomePity1066, your dad was a great man. I am so glad you had him. And I wish he was still here for you.

 

I feel the same way re: "a river of anger and sadness". I'm remembering different things about different 19KAC episodes -- Jim Boob and J-Chelle's dry humping at the mini golf course. Jim Boob had to stand on the platform to tell Jilly Muffin and derickdillard they could kiss. J-Chelle's flipping out that Jessa held hands with Bin while they prayed, or her wrestling Josie back into her little "modesty" jacket. SERIOUSLY? So many instances of no boundaries and an absolutely weird and unhealthy obsession with sexuality.

 

I could talk about this all day long and still feel like there were things I forgot to say. Mostly, I wish for peace for the victims, whatever "peace" means to them. And I hope they know how many people are thinking about them right now and wish there was anything they could do to help --- like exiling Josh somewhere they'll never have to see him again.

[Aethera]

Can we post the Josh memes that are hitting the interwebs or is it "too soon"?  Funny but tasteless.

 

Let's avoid the memes, please. There are plenty of other places people can see those, and it will disrupt the flow of the thread. Thanks for asking first :)

[GEML]

For the record, I don't think any of the young girls were capable of "forgiveness" at the time of the events or when the police report was made.

But that was quite some time ago for the young women. Who they are now is not who they are now. Demanding "Justice" for them may not look like what we are all envisioning with our sort of Grapes of Wrath attitudes. They've lived with this for a decade. We've lived with it peripherally for about all of ten minutes.

[Honey]

I know we all believe that Michelle and Jim Bob would blame the girls in the case of sexual assault, but does anyone have an actual cite for this?  I am writing an article, and I need an actual cite where Michelle or Jim Bob say exactly that.  The closest I can find is them saying that "If a woman dresses immodestly she stirs up desires in the man that cannot be righteously fulfilled"

 

But that isn't good enough.  I need something where they say specifically, that they believe the woman is at fault for being assaulted.  Does anyone have a cite for that?

[bencr]

Regarding this whole issue of forgiveness, I think a lot depends on whether you view what Josh Duggar did as a sin requiring forgiveness or a crime requiring treatment and punishment. Or both -- which is where I stand. I just don't think forgiveness is enough given the severity of the offense, and (based only on what I've read) I don't think Josh has received the therapy he needs for his crimes.

 

I think treatment alone is sufficient if it works and I think forgiveness is optional and at the discretion of the victims.

[leighdear]

The hypocrisy in that Michael Seewald post is stunning.  He says the victims are not to blame, yet blaming the victim is exactly the doctrines that his family believes. 

His support for the abusers (I consider Jim Bob & Michelle as abusers in addition to Josh) is his truth, and his "support" for the victims is pure ass-covering, face-saving wishy-washy twaddle that he has to pretend to believe in order to stay out of the direct line of fire. 

[Rancide]

I've only seen this show in passing, and I don't believe I've ever posted here, but I just wanted to say that my heart goes out to the girls who were the victim of these disgusting acts.  Both for the abuse they've suffered and now for the fact that that abuse has been made public through means other than voluntary disclosure by the girls themselves.  There is no shame in being a victim of abuse, but that doesn't mean that anyone other than the victim herself has the right to make the abuse known to the world at large.  

 

I absolutely cannot fathom the thought process that lead the girls' parents, knowing that something like this had happened in their family, to put their family on display to the entire country and to make the family the subject of national attention.

 

In short, Jim Bob and Michelle are disgusting pieces of shit, and I truly hope that the national attention being drawn to this subject--attention being brought as a direct result of the selfishness of Jim Bob and Michelle--is not retraumatizing any of these poor young women.  

Edited May 24, 2015 by Rancide

[GEML]

It's absolutely the discretion of the young women. But I do think that if any of them came out and said that they forgave him, they would be scorned and treated by many as "brainwashed" or "drinking the koolaid" or "stupid." Reading through how some of Anna's comments in the past few days have been taken, you'd think she was a twelve year old girl and not a young woman in her twenties who is fully capable of knowing her own mind and saying what she thinks.

[JennyMominFL]

I believe in forgiveness and I am an Atheist. When I was 20 I married a man who  had a secret life.  I ended up HIV positive. He knew he was positive and continued to sleep with me. That was 25 years ago and I've gone on to have a family a happy second marriage  and a great life. Part of that, I believe is because I forgave him. I could not have that anger in my life. I could not live like that. It doesn't mean I have forgotten. How could I forget when I live with the consequences daily?

 But I did this of my own free will and in a genuine way. How does a 5 year old child really forgive? How do you really forgive if your religion requires it? I hope more has gone on that we don't know of. I hope they have been able to get some help and come to forgiveness on their own terms. I doubt that is the case though. Maybe someday. 

Edited May 24, 2015 by JennyMominFL

[heckkitty]

 

 

Jessica Seewald also came out in defense of the abuser, now Pa Seewald posts this:

http://seewalds.com/...r-than-our-sin/

 

The comments on that page are nauseating.

[Betweenyouandme]

I know it's futile, but if only the fundamentalists would understand that it's the HYPOCRISY we are all railing about. Yes the molestation was horrible, yes not contacting the authorities was awful but sadly happens every day, but we are angry that the JimBlobs have been trying portray GLTB people as monsters when all along it was their precious first miracle Josh, the good Christian, who was the one young women should fear.

I personally disagree. I'm upset about molestation. I'm upset about hate speech. But, they're separate. I find molesting to be no more despicable when it's done in hypocrisy. Why? Because that would mean, to me, a non-hypocritical person who molests somehow is doing less harm or that the harm is less impactful. It's like a pass/fail class to me. You molest- you fail. You're hating- you fail. If you "just" do one, you're not passing. Just my opinion. Also, Josh has not been found to be the one molester loose in the world. Molesters, as far as I'm aware, can be anyone. I don't stereotype. I'll watch my child around anyone and make consistent observations. This is all my opinion.

I guess what I'm saying is this could have been Joe Schmo or Suzy Schmoozy and I also would be outraged and devastated.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Betweenyouandme

[flyingdi]

To anyone familiar with the law. If they had sent the preteen girls or even Josh to a non Christian therapy program, would the therapist have to report it to the police? Or would confidentiality clauses come into effect?

[RazzleberryPie]

Regarding this whole issue of forgiveness, I think a lot depends on whether you view what Josh Duggar did as a sin requiring forgiveness or a crime requiring treatment and punishment. Or both -- which is where I stand. I just don't think forgiveness is enough given the severity of the offense, and (based only on what I've read) I don't think Josh has received the therapy he needs for his crimes.

 

I think treatment alone is sufficient if it works and I think forgiveness is optional and at the discretion of the victims.

I see it as both a sin and a crime. Render unto Cesar, and Jesus may forgive him, but the State of Arkansas shouldn't.  While I don't think a 14 year old should be written off as a lifetime criminal and given the chair, some mandated, non-Duggarchurch counseling and restricted contact with his victims, plus warning that additional counts would mean juvie, would've been more appropriate.

[Betweenyouandme]

To anyone familiar with the law. If they had sent the preteen girls or even Josh to a non Christian therapy program, would the therapist have to report it to the police? Or would confidentiality clauses come into effect?

Confidentiality excludes abuse or criminal activity, and records can always possibly be subpoenaed by the police or court if there's reason to suspect there's evidence there.

Edited May 24, 2015 by Betweenyouandme

[CofCinci]

To anyone familiar with the law. If they had sent the preteen girls or even Josh to a non Christian therapy program, would the therapist have to report it to the police? Or would confidentiality clauses come into effect?

If the therapist (any type: psychologist, clinical social workers (me), marriage and family therapist, etc.) is licensed they are mandated reporters --- and even without a professional licensure, they are expected to adhere to their professional code of ethics.

[RazzleberryPie]

To anyone familiar with the law. If they had sent the preteen girls or even Josh to a non Christian therapy program, would the therapist have to report it to the police? Or would confidentiality clauses come into effect?

If they had entered ANY therapy program, there is no confidentiality when a crime has occurred. 

[bigskygirl]

A few reminders...First of all, please do not call out certain people outside the family for their actions in relation to informing authorities to what was going on behind the scenes in the Duggar household. Oprah and law enforcement officials should not be blame for Josh, JB, and Michelle's actions.

 

Please do not into a repetitive speculation discussion about the victims forgiving Josh or should they go out in the public with any possible counseling sessions or tell their side of the story. Also do not speculate about why the girls should not forgive Josh for what he did.

 

The mods, at are discretion, will hide posts in relation to what was posted in the mod note. Thank you.