The Duggalos: Jinger and the Holy Goalie

[Sew Sumi]

I was just coming here to post this. His shorts are quite defrauding. I doubt they're even knee-length when standing. 

[ginger90]

I'm not a body language expert, but when Jinger was asked if she misses her family, or sisters, I forget which, she said yes, and then played with her hair. Truth, or not?

Edited July 6, 2017 by ginger90

[Churchhoney]

2 minutes ago, ginger90 said:

I'm not a body language expert, but when Jinger was asked if she misses her family, or sisters, I forget which, she said yes, and then played with her hair. Truth, or not?

Well, on some analyses that qualifies as a fidget (I didn't see it, so I can't tell if it was fidgety.). And if it was a fidget, then a lot of body-language people would say -- "Uncomfortable. Lie."). 

[Marshmallow Mollie]

Do I spy a haircut?

T shirt and pants - go Jinge!

[floridamom]

Jinger, dark colors draw heat TO YOU; light colors are best in upper 90 degree weather. Why is she wearing long leggings in that weather? Can't tell with the haircut...it could be pulled up a bit with the pony tail. Her hair looks like it's still wet out of the shower to me. Jeremy is wearing real shorts. Good for him.

[toodles]

On 6/30/2017 at 8:26 AM, EVS said:

If it is not too OT, I have a nice story that supports this beautiful quote. 

About 5 years ago, we were at Disney's Hollywood Studios on a really hot day so we stopped at a churro stand to buy some bottled waters.  The kid that helped us didn't seem to speak English very well and his name tag said he was from South Korea. We happen to know a few Korean phrases so we thanked him in Korean. He looked confused and I thought he was reacting to our bad American accents. 

We had gotten a pretty good distance away when we heard yelling behind us. We turned around and the kid is running towards us yelling (Korean thank you) over and over. He caught up to us and handed us a churro, a pretzel and a third sweet treat I don't remember. He kept repeating (Korean thank you) and we were thanking him for the treats in Korean. I think we set a record for the most (Korean thank you)s ever spoken in 10 seconds. Then he ran back to the churro stand.

One of my boys asked my husband why the kid gave us the treats and my husband said that the kid was far from home and it must have meant a lot to him that someone spoke to him in his native language. It was a nice lesson for my boys. 

That's a really lovely story.  Thank you for sharing.

[EVS]

1 hour ago, toodles said:

That's a really lovely story.  Thank you for sharing.

Thank you, toodles. 

[lascuba]

I usually don't speculate on this stuff but for some reason I kept thinking about it last night, so...random musings on the Duggalos possibly use of birth control ahead (even though I know that they've been married less than a year so it's definitely possible that a presumably fertile couple just hasn't conceived via unprotected sex yet):

I think Jinger is using hormonal birth control. Whether they had an honest discussion before the wedding or not, Jeremy went into this knowing he didn't want kids right away and he didn't want a large number of them. I'm inclined to think that he hinted at wanting to wait to have kids, at least, with Jinger adoringly agreeing. Jinger did say she wanted a lot of kids and for now I choose to believe she wasn't deliberately lying, though I think it possible that she was spouting the party line without thinking about it. Whatever the case, I'm guessing Jeremy used condoms in the beginning, until Jinger got on birth control.

Why condoms followed by hormonal bc and not NFP? A few reasons--first, I just don't think they had a real discussion of this before marriage, so at the very least, if deliberately trying to avoid, they would have had to start out with condoms. Real, reliably effective NFP isn't just counting days, it's daily crack of dawn temperature checks with a special thermometer AND regularly checking of cervical mucus. And you'd likely have to do it for a couple of months before trying to use it as family planning to get the hang of it all. Jinger was most definitely not going to do that before getting married, and I doubt she would now. Another aspect of NFP if you want to avoid even condoms is abstinence. Depending on your cycle, you might have to avoid PIV sex for close to half the month, and no way will Jeremy do that. So it's hormonal bc exclusively now, because Jeremy isn't going to want to use condoms all the time. How Jinger feels about that in light of what she's been raised to believe? She could feel conflicted, sure, but she looks very happy right now, not like some dark sin is weighing on her mind. To be honest, I think Jinger is that combination of dim and infatuated that there wasn't any conflict for her.  Jeremy decreed, she happily agreed, and she only feels awkward about it when questioned because she's been trained to never disagree with her family on camera. It's also entirely possible that she secretly didn't want a lot of kids anyway...she has fear of childbirth so that could be a factor. I just don't think that she would make the leap from not wanting a bunch of kids to actually doing something to prevent them with Jeremy's say so.

There, those are my thoughts. I hope to never give this time to the a Duggar's bc preference again.

[BitterApple]

Jinger looks cute but that outfit is too heavy for summer.

[Jynnan tonnix]

17 minutes ago, lascuba said:

I usually don't speculate on this stuff but for some reason I kept thinking about it last night, so...random musings on the Duggalos possibly use of birth control ahead (even though I know that they've been married less than a year so it's definitely possible that a presumably fertile couple just hasn't conceived via unprotected sex yet):

I think Jinger is using hormonal birth control. Whether they had an honest discussion before the wedding or not, Jeremy went into this knowing he didn't want kids right away and he didn't want a large number of them. I'm inclined to think that he hinted at wanting to wait to have kids, at least, with Jinger adoringly agreeing. Jinger did say she wanted a lot of kids and for now I choose to believe she wasn't deliberately lying, though I think it possible that she was spouting the party line without thinking about it. Whatever the case, I'm guessing Jeremy used condoms in the beginning, until Jinger got on birth control.

Why condoms followed by hormonal bc and not NFP? A few reasons--first, I just don't think they had a real discussion of this before marriage, so at the very least, if deliberately trying to avoid, they would have had to start out with condoms. Real, reliably effective NFP isn't just counting days, it's daily crack of dawn temperature checks with a special thermometer AND regularly checking of cervical mucus. And you'd likely have to do it for a couple of months before trying to use it as family planning to get the hang of it all. Jinger was most definitely not going to do that before getting married, and I doubt she would now. Another aspect of NFP if you want to avoid even condoms is abstinence. Depending on your cycle, you might have to avoid PIV sex for close to half the month, and no way will Jeremy do that. So it's hormonal bc exclusively now, because Jeremy isn't going to want to use condoms all the time. How Jinger feels about that in light of what she's been raised to believe? She could feel conflicted, sure, but she looks very happy right now, not like some dark sin is weighing on her mind. To be honest, I think Jinger is that combination of dim and infatuated that there wasn't any conflict for her.  Jeremy decreed, she happily agreed, and she only feels awkward about it when questioned because she's been trained to never disagree with her family on camera. It's also entirely possible that she secretly didn't want a lot of kids anyway...she has fear of childbirth so that could be a factor. I just don't think that she would make the leap from not wanting a bunch of kids to actually doing something to prevent them with Jeremy's say so.

There, those are my thoughts. I hope to never give this time to the a Duggar's bc preference again.

While really diligent  NFP might take a bit of work, I tend to think that it would be their method of choice. If you have a reasonably regular cycle and are OK with the idea of getting pregnant even though you might ideally like to wait a bit, there might be a bit of luck involved, but overall I'd guess that you would still cut your risk of pregnancy by a good 70%-80%, maybe even more once you really got into the swing of it. Maybe those odds are something they can live with, and, again, with a little bit of luck added to the practice, could easily delay a pregnancy for at least a couple of years. And if Jinger were to get pregnant earlier  than they planned, I don't think they'd see it at the end of the world, just God's will...I agree that Jeremy may well have been (and may still be) using condoms at least part of the time, but my guess would be NFP for the most part.

[Lunera]

He could be pulling out, or as someone here called it before 'pull and pray'. 

[kokapetl]

"Orphan care through coffee development". What a slogan. 

[Jellybeans]

I agree.  I think Jinger is on the pill or something similar.  I think they are having too much fun to have kids.  I think it will be some time before we see abies from those two.  At least I hope so.

First things first...shorts, pants, books and a haircut.

[Genevrier]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Jinger looks cute but that outfit is too heavy for summer.

She is still working on 'how normal people dress.' Be patient. She's very new at it! 

[floridamom]

IMO, to properly use NFP, a woman has to be in tune with her body and 'what it does'. This lets Jinger out from the get go. That 23 year old 'woman' knows nothing about what's in her head, let alone what's in her body. How could she properly monitor it? That would take years of training. Methinks, Jeremy, THE MAN, is in charge of 'havin' those babies......later".

[Christina87]

I've never really felt that jinger wanted a big family. She never seemed super enthralled with the huge bunch, like Jill and even jessa were. With her "meek" personality, I bet she looks at Anna managing four little kids and cringes. She is probably over the moon grateful to Jeremy for offering a way out of that! I would guess condoms though, because I doubt they have good insurance to get birth control with. 

[EAG46]

At least Jinger got a controlling husband that is sensible in his controls.  That was probably the best situation she could hope for.  Yes his preaching is insulting to the rest of mainstream Christian America.  Yes he probably needs actual time in seminary.  (A few years of learning Spanish couldn't hurt either.)  But considering what she grew up with, Jeremy must be so liberating.  Pants!  Shorts!  Shorter hair!  Not spitting out kids two minutes after their marriage!  Learning to like reading!  Decent footwear!  NOT having her family around all the damn time!  Peace and Quiet!  I hope they manage to find their way to some sort of mainstream fundamentalism.  Is that a contradiction?

[ariel]

14 hours ago, Lunera said:

Cute picture but with the heat a skirt or dress  would have been more comfortable 

It looks like a picture of a father & a daughter.

Edited July 6, 2017 by ariel

[BitterApple]

32 minutes ago, Christina87 said:

I've never really felt that jinger wanted a big family. She never seemed super enthralled with the huge bunch, like Jill and even jessa were. With her "meek" personality, I bet she looks at Anna managing four little kids and cringes. She is probably over the moon grateful to Jeremy for offering a way out of that! I would guess condoms though, because I doubt they have good insurance to get birth control with. 

I was about to say, you can get cheap birth control at Planned Parenthood, but I'm sure that place is the equivalent of Satan's Waiting Room to a girl who was raised like Jinger. 

[doodlebug]

11 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

I was about to say, you can get cheap birth control at Planned Parenthood, but I'm sure that place is the equivalent of Satan's Waiting Room to a girl who was raised like Jinger. 

The Affordable Care Act (Obamacare) is still the law of the land, so, if they have health insurance, contraceptives should be available to Jinjer at minimal to no cost.  It'd be great if she got an IUD which would protect against pregnancy for at least 3 years, depending on the type, but that's probably too much to ask.  Most fundies have decided that IUD's cause abortions, despite heaps of evidence proving that they don't.  The ACA does cover them, though, and most Gyn's including me, have had a bunch of requests for this method prior to whatever disaster the Republicans decide to put in its place.

For that matter, many large drug chains have lists of medications that folks without insurance coverage can get very cheaply. Usually it's generics for BP meds or antibiotics but many also include at least one generic oral contraceptive on their list.  Here in Ohio, there are at least 2 different large chains that offer a couple of oral contraceptives for 9 bucks a month and even give a discount if 3 months at a time are purchased at once.  So, even if they're not insured and even if they don't want to use Planned Parenthood, Jinjer and Baaabe have options for inexpensive, reliable contraception.

[JoanArc]

FWIW Doodlebug - I've read that due to the upcoming insurance changes, there's a huge push to make BC pills an OTC med. There's a decent chance it will happen - and Jinger wouldn't need a doctor or insurance at all.  That said, I doubt Jinger is on the pill. Not everyone is insta-fertile. Just look at the Bates Girls.

[Missy Vixen]

On 6/30/2017 at 1:13 PM, RedheadZombie said:

Jinger is naive enough that Jeremy could be "pulling out" or even using condoms and she would probably be clueless. 

If the Holy Goalie is using any means whatsoever to delay pregnancy until they are on their feet financially and have some time to get to know each other as husband and wife, GOOD FOR HIM. I am somewhat curious to know if he came to this decision after watching the adventures of two of his brothers-in-law that impregnated their wives at the speed of light and now are dealing with two kids each. 

[riverblue22]

Jeremy's parents somehow managed to just have two children.  Unless his mother developed some problem I bet she was on birth control pills.  Maybe Jeremy decided to follow his parents responsible lead.  I hadn't thought about Jinger taking birth control pills, but of all the girls I could see her doing that.  And wouldn't Jeremy have health insurance through the church that sent him to Laredo?

[doodlebug]

11 minutes ago, JoanArc said:

FWIW Doodlebug - I've read that due to the upcoming insurance changes, there's a huge push to make BC pills an OTC med. There's a decent chance it will happen - and Jinger wouldn't need a doctor or insurance at all.  That said, I doubt Jinger is on the pill. Not everyone is insta-fertile. Just look at the Bates Girls.

The American Congress of Obstetricians and Gynecologists has been a strong supporter of over the counter oral contraception for many years and has repeatedly petitioned the FDA to allow it.  However, due to strong opposition from fundamentalist right wingers as well as the pharmaceutical industry, it has never been close to happening.  In today's political climate, I don't think it is likely to be approved anytime soon.

[RedheadZombie]

27 minutes ago, Missy Vixen said:

If the Holy Goalie is using any means whatsoever to delay pregnancy until they are on their feet financially and have some time to get to know each other as husband and wife, GOOD FOR HIM. I am somewhat curious to know if he came to this decision after watching the adventures of two of his brothers-in-law that impregnated their wives at the speed of light and now are dealing with two kids each. 

I'm all for Jinger and Babe putting off babies, and having a manageable number of kids.  But if Babe is sneaking condoms, or handing Jing OC and telling her they're vitamins while dim-witted Jinger worshipfully remains unaware, he's robbing her of her autonomy and agency - much like her parents.   And if he's dictating these things to her, and she simply obeys because he's her headship, that doesn't seem much better.  She will have traded one owner for another, gaining sex and walking shorts, but no true agency.   Isn't agency what most of us hoped for the Duggar girls?

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm all for Jinger and Babe putting off babies, and having a manageable number of kids.  But if Babe is sneaking condoms, or handing Jing OC and telling her they're vitamins while dim-witted Jinger worshipfully remains unaware, he's robbing her of her autonomy and agency - much like her parents.   And if he's dictating these things to her, and she simply obeys because he's her headship, that doesn't seem much better.  She will have traded one owner for another, gaining sex and walking shorts, but no true agency.   Isn't agency what most of us hoped for the Duggar girls?

I do agree with you BUT I don't think Jeremy would slip her pills on the sly OR hide condoms (I'm a diligent condom user and they are kind of hard to hide). 

I think that she and Jeremy probably see eye to eye on a lot of things and she's open to having her world broadened. I think what attracted him to her WAS that he wasn't so fundy and more mainstream. I could see Jinger ending up a conservative Christian who participates in mainstream society, with 3-4 kids because that's what she wants. 

[sometimesy]

2 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm all for Jinger and Babe putting off babies, and having a manageable number of kids.  But if Babe is sneaking condoms, or handing Jing OC and telling her they're vitamins while dim-witted Jinger worshipfully remains unaware, he's robbing her of her autonomy and agency - much like her parents.   And if he's dictating these things to her, and she simply obeys because he's her headship, that doesn't seem much better.  She will have traded one owner for another, gaining sex and walking shorts, but no true agency.   Isn't agency what most of us hoped for the Duggar girls?

There is always a chance they've decided how to manage their family planning as a couple and both agreed on what course to take. 

[Absolom]

Just to clarify, Jeremy is one of three siblings, but yes his parents seem to have likely used some form of birth control.  Neither Jeremy's nor his father's church seem to be anti-birth control.  There isn't a hint of quiverfull about them.  Jinger may have wanted other things out of life than just "city" and Jeremy may have offered them.  They seem to have had the most unmonitored conversations of the courtships so far and may well have decided to not let nature take its course.

[Obsidian]

True, but over 20 years of Blob and Mechelle brainwashing and I don't think you actually have anything resembling meaningful autonomy or agency. Yes, she should have equal say in their family size and timing, but better that they don't have a whole lot of blessings while Jinger learns what her opinion is. Then again, maybe he'd be dictating their reproductive timetable regardless of Jinger's opinion or lack of, in which case a firm kick to his reproductive area is in order.

eta: replying to redheadzombie's comment 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Obsidian
Other people replied

[Portia]

1 hour ago, floridamom said:

IMO, to properly use NFP, a woman has to be in tune with her body and 'what it does'. This lets Jinger out from the get go. That 23 year old 'woman' knows nothing about what's in her head, let alone what's in her body. How could she properly monitor it? That would take years of training. Methinks, Jeremy, THE MAN, is in charge of 'havin' those babies......later".

I'm not trying to be argumentative, especially since I think you're being at least somewhat sarcastic, but for the sake of "equal time" I just want to say that I found NFP to be incredibly easy to learn and use. It definitely didn't require taking my temperature. Didn't Mechelle supposedly post her menstrual calendar in a place where her girls could see it?  I wouldn't be surprised if she also knew and passed on to her girls the basic procedure for observing mucus daily, since it can be used just as easily to achieve pregnancy as to avoid it. 

[twinkietwin94]

35 minutes ago, Portia said:

I'm not trying to be argumentative, especially since I think you're being at least somewhat sarcastic, but for the sake of "equal time" I just want to say that I found NFP to be incredibly easy to learn and use. It definitely didn't require taking my temperature. Didn't Mechelle supposedly post her menstrual calendar in a place where her girls could see it?  I wouldn't be surprised if she also knew and passed on to her girls the basic procedure for observing mucus daily, since it can be used just as easily to achieve pregnancy as to avoid it. 

I also found NFP fairly easy to use and I did take my temp every morning as soon as I woke up, then again I read Taking Charge of Your Fertility, not sure if Jing would be allowed or capable of reading it. 

[Kirjava]

At this point it seems as if nothing Jinger does will ever be interpreted as autonomous. She wears pants? It's Jeremy telling her to wear them so he can piss off Jim Bob. She spends less time with her family? Jeremy is isolating her. She goes months into her marriage without a pregnancy? Jeremy must be sneaking condoms or have forced her onto birth control. Every action she makes can (and has been) twisted to be an example of Jeremy controlling her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. She might as well still be in skirts, running home to the compound whenever possible and knocked up, because at least the criticism would be fair.

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, ariel said:

It looks like a picture of a father & a daughter.

That's not their problem. I'm 5'2" and got married at 19 to a man who was 27 and 6'4". At that time in my life I was very skinny, and thanks to an upbringing not quite as strict as Jinger's, immature and dressed very modestly (although in jeans). I was offered the children's menu at Denny's on our honeymoon. My husband wasn't a perv, just a man who loved me and was happy to help me learn how to make my own decisions even when they were opposite of his.

[GeeGolly]

I agree with @Jynnan tonnix about NFP, however I'm thinking that's as far as Jing would go in avoiding pregnancy. She certainly knows how to track menstruation as tracking Michelle's has been a family affair and anyways there are plenty of apps for that. I think they'd be okay with an oops baby, just hoping it's later rather than sooner.

[Scarlett45]

2 hours ago, Nysha said:

That's not their problem. I'm 5'2" and got married at 19 to a man who was 27 and 6'4". At that time in my life I was very skinny, and thanks to an upbringing not quite as strict as Jinger's, immature and dressed very modestly (although in jeans). I was offered the children's menu at Denny's on our honeymoon. My husband wasn't a perv, just a man who loved me and was happy to help me learn how to make my own decisions even when they were opposite of his.

Yeah I know what you mean. I've never been petite like you, but I've got a baby face and a high pitched voice- many a time I've been out socializing and people thought my date was my dad (ewww). 

Edited July 7, 2017 by Scarlett45

[Jynnan tonnix]

29 minutes ago, Kirjava said:

At this point it seems as if nothing Jinger does will ever be interpreted as autonomous. She wears pants? It's Jeremy telling her to wear them so he can piss off Jim Bob. She spends less time with her family? Jeremy is isolating her. She goes months into her marriage without a pregnancy? Jeremy must be sneaking condoms or have forced her onto birth control. Every action she makes can (and has been) twisted to be an example of Jeremy controlling her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. She might as well still be in skirts, running home to the compound whenever possible and knocked up, because at least the criticism would be fair.

I agree. I don't really watch the show but for a clip here and there, so I am not knowledgeable as to her general body language and such, but she appears to be happy, whereas if she were feeling controlled, I think the facade would slip now and again. Of course, she could still be in the entirely "smitten" stage, where Baaabe can do no wrong, but she doesn't give off the vibe of a girl who, for example, has been forcibly kept from her family. Seems to me that at least a couple of years of marriage would be needed before reading such things into every move she makes would even begin to be justified. Kind of like Jill, where the cracks are becoming more evident, and they are not necessarily the same ones which had been speculated about toward the beginning of her marriage.

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, BitterApple said:

I was about to say, you can get cheap birth control at Planned Parenthood, but I'm sure that place is the equivalent of Satan's Waiting Room to a girl who was raised like Jinger. 

Especially because Jer's' church is also the home of a fundie pregnancy "help" center. lol 

[Sew Sumi]

I wonder if they even know that PP provides birth control. Fundies seem to be ALL about the ABORTIONS that they either are ignorant to, or willfully ignore, PP's other services. 

As for Jinger, I have no comment on what (if any) birth control they're using (or not). 

Jeremy's not keeping her from her family. They went on the stinkbus trip in late March/early April through Ohio and TN, culminiating in Tabby Paine's wedding to The Rapist. They were with her family for the better part of a week that time, and there may have been trips to the TTH both before and since then that we don't know about. We DO know that Benessa, a couple other siblings, and Jenni Hartono visited her for a few days not long before Joy's wedding. However, the plane flight info JUST went private TODAY (flew to and back from Nashville just yesterday), so I can't give you exact dates on their trip down there any longer. 

From what little we've seen, they a pretty traditional marriage in terms of gender roles, but I do see Jeremy in the kitchen and giving a hand with laundry (hell, he's done his own cooking and cleaning), so they might actually be a bit more egalitarian than other Duggar marriages than one might suspect 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Sew Sumi

[Lunera]

I'm sure Jeremy had a chat with Jinger after marriage about kids and asked her what she wanted. She obviously doesn't want "As many as God will give us" and he got Mrs Vuolo to counsel her on NFP or whatever method she used. 

I wonder what Jessa and Jill think of Jinger practicing safe sex. Bet they wish they had a husband mature enough to put their foot down and do their own thing instead of getting indoctrinated deeper into the Duggar cult.

[Lunera]

14 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I wonder if they even know that PP provides birth control. Fundies seem to be ALL about the ABORTIONS that they either are ignorant to, or willfully ignore, PP's other services.

 

They do know they just choose to be blissfully ignorant.

I remember when Jill posted picture on Instagram from the planned parenthood protest several people were asking why they were harassing and shaming women, that most of them were there to get BC. Several people commented their PP stories about how helpful they have been to them and the community but do you think they'll listen. 

Edited July 6, 2017 by Lunera

[Sew Sumi]

3 minutes ago, Lunera said:

They do know they just choose to be blissfully ignorant.

I remember when Jill posted picture on Instagram from the planned parenthood protest several people were asking why they were harassing and shaming women, that most of them were there to get BC. Several people commented their PP stories about how helpful they have been to them and the community but do you think they'll listen. 

Jill probably blocked them, barely skimming. 

[Spencer Hastings]

1 hour ago, Kirjava said:

At this point it seems as if nothing Jinger does will ever be interpreted as autonomous. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. She might as well still be in skirts, running home to the compound whenever possible and knocked up, because at least the criticism would be fair.

A thousand times all of this.  These girls can't win, no matter what they do.  We don't want them to be meek but we don't want them to be "bitchy" like Jessa.   We want them to wear pants but we don't because it must be a man telling her to do it.  We don't want them to be sold to the highest bidder but poor Jana is sitting at home with her eggs shriveling up. The back and forth with these girls gives me  whiplash. 

[Scarlett45]

5 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

A thousand times all of this.  These girls can't win, no matter what they do.  We don't want them to be meek but we don't want them to be "bitchy" like Jessa.   We want them to wear pants but we don't because it must be a man telling her to do it.  We don't want them to be sold to the highest bidder but poor Jana is sitting at home with her eggs shriveling up. The back and forth with these girls gives me  whiplash. 

I agree- but that's the thing about being a woman, even in non-fundyland we cannot win. 

 

At the end of the day I hope the girls find a way to get some personal happiness for themselves. I think that so far Jessa, and Jinger have the best chance for that because they seem to genuinely like their spouses, and despite Jeremy and Ben's flaws they don't give off abusive or harmful vibes (at least to me). Jana has a great shot too I think, she seems fairly intelligent and understands the give and take in life. Her personal happiness may or may not include a spouse or a partner right now. Jury is out in Joy- she's so young. Jill....that's the one I worry about. 

[GeeGolly]

12 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

A thousand times all of this.  These girls can't win, no matter what they do.  We don't want them to be meek but we don't want them to be "bitchy" like Jessa.   We want them to wear pants but we don't because it must be a man telling her to do it.  We don't want them to be sold to the highest bidder but poor Jana is sitting at home with her eggs shriveling up. The back and forth with these girls gives me  whiplash. 

I hear you, but its not all whiplash. A lot of it is different opinions from different posters who are fairly consistent in their snark. Not all posters think Jinger is controlled, some think she is encouraged and others think she makes independent decisions. A lot of differing opinions about Jeremy too. And when read all in a row it often feels like whiplash.

But the name of the game is snark, and even the snarkiest come to the Duggars defense here and there.

[JoanArc]

26 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

A thousand times all of this.  These girls can't win, no matter what they do.  We don't want them to be meek but we don't want them to be "bitchy" like Jessa.   We want them to wear pants but we don't because it must be a man telling her to do it.  We don't want them to be sold to the highest bidder but poor Jana is sitting at home with her eggs shriveling up. The back and forth with these girls gives me  whiplash. 

FWIW I don't particularity care about any of these girl's choices. I'm more fascinated that they have a show at all. Mainly I'm just sitting here waiting for reality to impact them in any meaningful way.

[Genevrier]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

But if Babe is sneaking condoms, or handing Jing OC and telling her they're vitamins while dim-witted Jinger worshipfully remains unaware, he's robbing her of her autonomy and agency - much like her parents.

OK, I am lost. How exactly would one sneak a condom? I can't envision a condom being in use without both parties seeing it. Now I'm wondering if this is something people do. 

[McManda]

3 minutes ago, Genevrier said:

OK, I am lost. How exactly would one sneak a condom? I can't envision a condom being in use without both parties seeing it. Now I'm wondering if this is something people do. 

No, I'm also kind of lost. It seems like one would have to be pretty oblivious to not notice your partner putting on a condom, I think. It's not like it's an instantaneous process.

It seems like it would be easier to sneak a condom off, if anything.

[lascuba]

3 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

I'm all for Jinger and Babe putting off babies, and having a manageable number of kids.  But if Babe is sneaking condoms, or handing Jing OC and telling her they're vitamins while dim-witted Jinger worshipfully remains unaware, he's robbing her of her autonomy and agency - much like her parents.   And if he's dictating these things to her, and she simply obeys because he's her headship, that doesn't seem much better.  She will have traded one owner for another, gaining sex and walking shorts, but no true agency.   Isn't agency what most of us hoped for the Duggar girls?

I don't think Jeremy is sneaking condoms or pulling out without her noticing, primarily because I don't think any of the Duggars are kept that ignorant of sex, and Jinger isn't *THAT*
 stupid. As obsessed as they are about sexual sin, they'd know what condoms are. And I doubt they skip the racier parts of the Bible...they know all about ejaculation and where semen is "supposed" to go.  I have no doubt that the Duggar kids go into their wedding nights well aware of all the mechanics of PIV sex.  And Jeremy's might be an asshole, but he's not that much of an asshole that he'd sneak Jinger oc. 

42 minutes ago, Spencer Hastings said:

A thousand times all of this.  These girls can't win, no matter what they do.  We don't want them to be meek but we don't want them to be "bitchy" like Jessa.   We want them to wear pants but we don't because it must be a man telling her to do it.  We don't want them to be sold to the highest bidder but poor Jana is sitting at home with her eggs shriveling up. The back and forth with these girls gives me  whiplash. 

Nah, I want them to be bitchy like Jessa, just with better taste in men. It always bugs me that people criticize Jessa precisely because her personality isn't that of a proper fundie woman. 

[GeeGolly]

10 minutes ago, Genevrier said:

OK, I am lost. How exactly would one sneak a condom? I can't envision a condom being in use without both parties seeing it. Now I'm wondering if this is something people do. 

4 minutes ago, McManda said:

No, I'm also kind of lost. It seems like one would have to be pretty oblivious to not notice your partner putting on a condom, I think. It's not like it's an instantaneous process.

It seems like it would be easier to sneak a condom off, if anything.

I could see this. I'm guessing Jinger is pretty clueless when it comes to sex. I bet he could slip one on without her knowing. I don't think he would though. However, I really think they're doing it bareback with no other contraceptive and she is just not pregnant yet.

[bigskygirl]

*ahem* A woman can still get pregnant even if the guy pulls out. Maybe she may have problems conceiving. *gasp* They may not want to have a child yet. *double gasp*

Jessa can go into the "b" mode if she wants to, but I cannot stand the smugness she and the majority of the Duggar clan spills out a lot. They act like they are the most special, blissful, season of life group of people walking around, and we should bow to their Godness attitude.