S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[TaurusRose]

Why all the Dany hate?  I always like her rousing speeches and of course, Drogon looked magnificent.  She is super badass when on the back of her biggest baby.  The girl is racking up protectors, the Unsullied have her back and now the Dothraki, I can't wait to see the payoff.  

If people were bitching about Cersei and her revenge speeches, that I could get behind.  That woman gets on my last good nerve and you'd think her hair would have grown out a little by now.  If Jamie is going to the Riverlands, do you think he'll meet up with Brienne?  I hope so because he needs a good slap upside the head about now.  

Uncle Benjen!  Yes!  I'm glad that this mystery has finally been solved; although, it looks like the COF got to him in the nick of time.  He looks a little frostbitten.  

Other good news: it looks like A Girl wants to remain Arya Stark as damn well she should. Now kick the Waif's ass (or better yet stick her with Needle) and be on your way. Personally, I think A Man has a soft spot for Arya and is secretly hoping she wins the fight.  I also think the Waif knows this and that's the reason she's so antagonistic towards A Girl.   

Is anyone else as sick of the High Sparrow as I am?  Just kill this dude already.  I am so tired of his mouth moving and bullshit piety coming out.  Gah! I'll just say it...I'm sick of everything KL.    

Ha!  The Freys are back and Waldo is as despicable as ever.  I can't wait for him (and the rest of his inbred spawn) to get what they deserve. So...Tobias Menzies is Edmure?  Huh. To that I say, good to see his character getting bad treatment since he's dished out plenty on Outlander.  I could have done without the Sam/Gilly visit Sam's family part of the story, but I am glad that Sam got his hands on some Valyrian steel.  I can't think of a better "fuck you" to his awful father.  

I guess Bran is too busy sorting through 3ER's download and pondering his epic destiny to shed any tears for Hodor or Summer. Whatever.  I just can't warm up to him even though he's apparently a player.  I hope Meera isn't supposed to drag his ass all over the North or that Benjen's horse is expected to carry all three of them.  Which begs the question, what happened to Dany's horse after she found Drogon?  Please don't tell me the dragon ate the horse.

I was expecting this episode to be boring, but I was pleasantly surprised overall.  Still, I'm glad we get back to the North and characters I actually want to see next week. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by taurusrose

[loki567]

The problems with Dany: One, all her "epic," scenes are some variation of big speech or fire. Emilia Clark does them well, but still.

Two, her successes feel incredibly unearned. I mean compare her to Jon and Sansa and everything they've gone through to get 4,000 measly wildlings. Their struggles have been brutal and makes their successes and failures feel more potent. Dany just has armies laying around her feet at this point. The writing's undercut most of her characterization from the books and have basically made her into epic girl, who has no real personality or development and just exists to give satisfying moments to the audience.

[operakatz]

4 hours ago, Minneapple said:

The dragon is some impressive CGI, but what the hell, Dany. Did you read ahead in the scripts and figure out that the Ironborn are bringing you ships? Because why the hell are you making a big speech to the Dothraki army about getting on the wooden horse if you don't have any wooden horses?

As far as we've seen, she has not been told that the ships harbored in Meereen were burned, as that happened after she was already gone.

[henripootel]

Quote

what the hell, Dany. Did you read ahead in the scripts and figure out that the Ironborn are bringing you ships?

How about the guys in the play getting the details of Tywin's death surprisingly right.  The only other witnesses (Shae and Tywin himself) died, and there's no way Tyrion went around telling folks exactly what he did and said.  I'm guessing they get HBO in Bravos.  

Edited May 30, 2016 by henripootel

[IntrovertGal]

Wow that was an exceptionally dull episode! Sam and Gilly nearly put me to sleep, as usual. Those scenes went on way too long.

The KL scenes annoyed me greatly. I'm sick and tired of the High Sparrow always winning, he is like the Ramsay of the South. I really hope that Margaery is playing the long con because otherwise that would suck so much and I would lose all respect for her. I hated how she talked about Loras in this episode. Tommen, you are so beyond stupid! Yes I know he is young but still. And enough with the Jaime/Cersei scenes already! It's just utterly upsetting and disappointing that D&D get Jaime so wrong and his redemption arc has come to a full stop. :(  He still doesn't know about Cersei/Lancel, he should be disgusted with Cersei right now, not kissing her. At least he is finally off to the Riverlands, where he will hopefully meet up with Brienne again.

Also, finally some forward momentum in Arya's storyline! So glad she grabbed Needle and is hopefully off to Westeros soon. The Faceless Men storyline has become beyond tedious.

Yay for Uncle Benjen! I was spoiled for his return but it was still nice to see him on screen and I'm glad that after Bran has lost both Hodor and Summer (RIP), he now has a new ally in his corner. I wanted to see more of Bran's visions, those went by way too fast.

Oh hello there, Black Jack Randall eh Edmure Tully! Nice that Tobias Menzies has time to do both GoT and Outlander. Also glad to get confirmation that Edmure is still alive on the show.

It was awesome to see Drogon and Dany on his back again, but I agree with others above, her epic speeches are becoming a bit repetitive. And there was indeed a slightly mad glint in her eyes at the end.

Boo to no Jon or Sansa!

Hopefully, next week's episode will be more exciting.

[Happy Harpy]

2 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Does anyone else think it's unlikely that young actress paid the Faceless Men to kill the older actress?  At least in the books, we know that the FM don't come cheap, and she doesn't seem like the type to have the cash.  I wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  As a bonus, she could get rid of an irritating acolyte (who also doesn't seem to be No One). 

I looked at her face/stance after Arya dropped the bomb and to me, she was "damn, busted!" so I think that Arya had pinged her well.

IIRC, the Faceless Men don't obligatorily ask for money. They ask something precious/invaluable for the person who hires them (including the life of someone dear to them, didn't a merchant sacrifice his daughter or something?). Anybody willing to make the sacrifice can "pay" for their services, then. But maybe my memory is playing games with me again.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Happy Harpy

[Ravenya003]

7 hours ago, MadMouse said:

Randyll Tarly's actor was perfect. He had the smug, cruel asshole bit down pat. One of the best scenes the show has done.

That actor is EVERYWHERE and he always plays a smug, cruel asshole. Didn't surprise me in the least that he popped up here.

As good as that dinner table scene was, it was also a bit disconcerting: my brain kept trying to trick me into thinking I was watching a new episode of Downton Abbey.

[sunnyface]

Quote

Why do they insist on making Dany's storyline so stagnant?

Never thought that a scene with a dragon in it could be boring but TV's Dany succeeds.  This show has managed to simultaneously capture both the repetitive nature of GRRM's writing and his inability to successfully juggle the story lines after his first two books.  Dany should have been given a nap for a season or three.

[Kate87]

Happy Moments: Benjen and Needle returned! Finally! I was so happy to see Benjen back and with quite the tale to tell. I really want to know more about the children and the extent to which their magic can counteract the WW's powers. 

King's Landing: I don't believe for a second Margaery has been converted. Neither Tommen, nor the Tyrell's have been able to help her, therefore she had to do what she could with the resources available to her. Cersei walked and has gained nothing - she has no real power, is essentially confined to the Red Keep, and will shortly be facing a trial by combat. By appearing to convert Margaery is showing that she (and Tommen) share the same beliefs as the common people. I think her endgame is likely to try to take the HS down from the inside. Margaery, as a believer, will be far more credible trying to depose the HS than Queen Margaery, a privileged woman with a grudge, would ever be in the eyes of the people. I don't think Tommen has a clue and given the likely outcome of the series, she's doomed but I think her plan has a better chance of success than Mace leading an army. I could see her trying to get Tommen recognized as the HS to merge state (royal) and religious powers.

Other than crossing my fingers Margaery has a plan, KL continues to act as a commercial break for me. I HATE LH's wig with a passion and I'm finding it increasingly distracting during her scenes. Glad Jamie is leaving but I wish he would have had another private conversation with Tommen. Loved his reference to Bronn and I hope he returns soon.    

Arya: While I'm thrilled about the return of Needle and I liked the plays, I still feel like a lot of time was wasted on the FM part of her storyline. I hope the rest of her plot moves faster than it has in these first few episodes. I'm glad she's still very much Arya. I would not have been happy if a girl was her only future. 

Bran: Regarding the comments made about his lack of emotions and willingness to drink rabbit blood like it's normal, I took his behavior as coming from a state of shock. As Benjen said, he's processing a lot of information right now, so I'll forgive his lack of emotion over the deaths of Hodor and Summer. I cannot wait for the the TOJ scene! Loved the glimpse of the Mad King, etc. in his visions. I hope Bran's personality is retained but I wonder to what extent he will be changed due to what happened.     

Dany: 

3 hours ago, benteen said:

If Dany was a guy, I'd venture to say she was dick-swinging at the end.  She had the Dothraki loyalty at that point.  It felt more like a speech just for the sake of it.

I agree completely. It also felt to me as if the writers said: we need a big CGI moment, bring in a dragon! My issue with her speech is that I think it could have easily been assumed she'd already said something similar to them. We as viewers know how she operates, it didn't add anything to her character and IMO took time away from more useful scenes. Drogon flying above and a smug look on Dany's face really would have been enough. 

I'm also going to be incredibly annoyed if the lush forests of the Iron Islands produce anywhere near 1,000 ships and turn up in Meereen. Seriously?! I'd like to see her back in Mereen attempting to build a new fleet. It's like she's stuck on repeat every season: damsel in destress, burn people, big dragon scene, and begin again. She needs to be shown ruling again if we're to care at all about her plot. As said previously in this tread, Jon and the WW make it incredibly difficult to care about any of the other plots, particularly Dany's claim on the IT for me. I don't care if she's failing as a ruler, I just want to see that she's advancing towards her goal. She needs to be able to offer Westeros more than just her ability to lead murders by killing their leaders and freeing slaves without providing means to ensure their freedom.  

 At the end of the episode, found myself going "where's Jon?" I really didn't feel invested in any of the stories tonight. I enjoyed the return House Frey  because Walder is rather entertaining and Edmure needed a reprieve from being stuck in a romance novel. Too many big things happened in last week's episode that this one really felt like a let down. 

[patchwork]

I wish we'd skipped Sam's family reunion and not seen him or Gilly again until he learns something interesting in Old Town. How he has Heartbane and why she's still with him could easily be explained with a few lines of dialogue or maybe not I just find them very dull.

I'll be very disappoint if Margaery isn't playing the long game with the High Sparrow. Seemingly giving him everything his greedy little heart wants only to make him fail spectacularly is very Tyrell. I can't see her really turning against Loras or buying into the High Sparrows nonsense but she couldn't do much while imprisoned. Destroying the support the Faith has amongst the people is easier if they no longer seem to be of the people. But I also thought that there had to be more to the Umbers handing over Rickon, like a secret plot to kill Ramsey, but without any follow up I'm beginning to think I was wrong there so I could be about Marge's secret plot too.

Arya trying to be a Faceless Man is reaching it's inevitable end, oh so she's not going to become no-one and be a mindless assassin? Who would have guessed. If she'd spent a season off screen like Bran the whole thing would be so less repetitive. In the books it felt like she was being trained to be an elite killer here it's feels bitty and like she's a better fighter than she was but lacks the other skills her book counterpart learned. 

I wouldn't say it's nice to see the Freys again but I'm looking forward to the Riverlands stuff. I really hope the Blackfish doesn't die before he can help Jon and Sansa, and that a certain direwolf and her pack follows Brienne home. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by patchwork

[Conan Troutman]

7 hours ago, bunnyblue said:

I Zaprudered that vision as I was watching. There was a totally new shot of someone pouring Wildfire from a glass container into a stone (?) jar. 

Another heavy hint for Cersei going Mad Queen and burning the whole city to the ground. Right now, the KL story line isn't the most exciting, but hopefully it goes out with a literal bang. 

7 hours ago, AuntieMame said:

Arya is finally moving, but she is going to have Faceless Men on her ass for the rest of her life, whether she kills the waif or not.  I'm so glad she didn't kill the actress and that we are done with no one. I do wonder what loing game the FM are playing but think we will only find out in the books. 

I was pretty conflicted during that scene. On the one hand, I didn't want Arya to kill the actress (was wondering if she might have poisoned the younger actress' wine), but even if she escapes them, that might come back to bite her in a big way. 

6 hours ago, trif said:

Me too. Obviously she's given very similar speeches and done actual ruthless things before, so I was trying to put my finger on what was different for me this time. I think the biggest reason is just the context of the speech - no immediate threat to Dany, or other injustice she's responding to. However, I do also wonder, if Dany is going to be more of an antagonist in the end game, at what point D&D tell her this or she otherwise gets more explicit direction to inject more of this into her performance.

I didn't find anything different. EC has been playing Dany with that same mixture of pride and underlying Targaryen madness for quite a while. I do think Dany will find herself working for the wrong side or something like that (mostly I don't trust those dragons at all, they're way too close to R'hllor for me), but maybe she can figure that out just before it's too late. Maybe the WWs will open her eyes. 

6 hours ago, lmsweb said:

Trying to sort out my feelings on the scene with Jaquen and the Waif. The Waif has always seemed almost irrationally hateful towards Arya. On the other hand, I got a little feeling from Jaquen that he is hoping Arya comes out on top and makes it out of Braavos. That could just be the little tiny remaining piece of my heart that the show has left me with projecting my own feelings though.

That would be great, but I'm not sure how much say "Jaquen" has in that matter. Then again, the many faced god doesn't really seem to care where his deaths are coming from. He was promised a death, and while he didn't get the right one, he'll probably get the Waif. He sure didn't complain when he got too many...

6 hours ago, Alapaki said:

So, are we to believe that seeing the play, being reminded of Cersei's bloodlust reminded Arya of her own, and that is what prompted her to give her two week's notice?

I'm wondering, narratively, what Arya really got out of her foray to Essos that she couldn't have learned for herself had she stayed in Westeros.  

Arya even proceeded to poison the wine right after that. Only after her talk with the actress she decided to come back and abort. Maybe it was the actress being generally nice, maybe it was the line about "do you want to pretend to be other people?" or maybe it was a reminder of family in the form of Cersei grieving over her dead son, but "I need to not kill that actress so I can kill other people" wasn't the reason. Now whether that means she'll also cross Cersei off her list (by removing the name from it, not actually killing her) or not remains to be seen. 

So narratively? Ironically enough, maybe she has learned about the value of life during her time with the death cult. Arya's been on a downward spiral since the start of the show, to the point you thought she was falling into the darkness to never recover, but maybe there's hope for her, after all. Yeah, she needs to kill some people (and she certainly needed the assassin training for that), but more importantly, she needs to get back to her family. 

 

5 hours ago, gatopretoNYC said:

Jaqen told her the faces are for no one. For someone, they are as good as poison. So she would not be able to use them, nor do I think she would want to. 

Well, she already used one. Sure, the FM punished her for it, but the act of wearing the face itself didn't do her any harm whatsoever. That said, getting a face could be a problem. Assuming she's not going back to the House of B&W, the only way to get a face would be to take one off and then prepare it yourself. That part, I don't know if she learned enough about that. They didn't teach her anything about that (only to wash the bodies), so maybe she'll be able to do it, maybe not. But ultimately, whether that will be a plot point or not, the narrative impact is that she chose her own face and her own identity over wearing many faces and thus losing her identity. 

3 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Does anyone else think it's unlikely that young actress paid the Faceless Men to kill the older actress?  At least in the books, we know that the FM don't come cheap, and she doesn't seem like the type to have the cash.  I wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  As a bonus, she could get rid of an irritating acolyte (who also doesn't seem to be No One). 

That wasn't a test she was supposed to fail, at least not from the FMs point of view. They're not cheap, but the price depends and why you want the death and how much you can give (they talk about death as a gift, which means they would be willing to deliver it for free for the right reasons, as in killing the suffering slaves or their masters). Granted, that was a pretty selfish wish, so I assume she would have to pay dearly, but probably not in money. Either way, it didn't pay off. Trying to imagine the younger actresses yelp review: "Faceless Men: Paid quite a hefty price, but they only send an incompetent apprentice who not only butchered the job, but also blamed me on top of it. Do NOT recommend."

[Sunnydayman]

Dany is crazy.  She doesn't have crazy eyes.  Her crazy is all over her face.  Like others have said the Dothraki are rapists and slavers.  What possible good could they do in Westeros?  I'm not a dragon guy as they always seemed Satanic to me. A crazy girl with rapists and dragons sounds right up R'hillor's alley.

Was all that Sam and Gilly screen time just to get the sword?  If so I hope it was important.  Sam obviously has daddy PTSD.  Stealing the sword might give Sam is man creds with his dad.  

A man is glad Arya made a choice.  This show is turning me into a monster... I want Arya to danykill The Waif.  Jacquen disappointed me but I guess that he is loyal to his murdering guild.  

KL wasn't really interesting.  The HS does seem to enjoy sticking it to the elites.  He outplayed them all with the possible exception of Margery.  Nod to the show for trying get characters to their book locations.  

ColdBenjen had a believable story apart from not coming south to the Wall to tell the NW what happened.  

Walder Frey is such an unlikable character but he is played by the ultimate mean old man, David Bradley.  I liked his speech.  I'm surprised that he kept Edmere alive given how he felt about the Tully's.  He makes it difficult for me to objective about the awfulness of Walder.  His death is probably required vengeance but who is near enough to the Twins to kill him sans Lady Stoneheart?  

I'm really starting to feel that the story is moving forward.  The pawns have been mostly eliminated but most of the important pieces remain.  Dany looks like the eventual winner.  That isn't my desired outcome so I hope it plays out differently.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Sunnydayman
Posted while sleeping

[Conan Troutman]

Some other thoughts:

- Benjen wasn't really surprising, but still great to see him. Got to be interesting how he comes back in the books if he isn't also a Coldhands like figure there. The show did seem to combine the characters after all, but I can't really imagine him being totally fine and fully alive in the books, that would be hard to believe. Anyway, he probably won't be with us for long, just to get Bran back to the Wall. 

- Meera and Bran? Ain't gonna happen. Though if she ever makes it to the neck (doubtful, but who knows?), I could see a meeting with Pod. 

- I never believed the common assumption from the filming spoilers that Margaery would only be conning the HS. Actually turning her into a believer is just more interesting plot wise, as it poses a huge problem for the Lannister/Tyrell alliance. So I'm glad it seems to turn out like that. 

- I liked the Sam/Gilly story this week. But I'm glad we don't have multiple weeks of them at Horn Hill, much more excited about the Citadel. Also nice: Finally someone put Hannah Murrah out of that burlap sack! Still not enough for the best costume of the week award though, that clearly goes to Mace Tyrell and his fabulous hat. 

- Dany's speech while riding Drogon was very effective for the Dothraki, who haven't seen her deliver a ton of these, less so for the audience, who has. Just shut up and get to Westeros, please!

- There were a ton of comebacks this week. Benjen, Edmure and Walder Frey onscreen, the Blackfish and the BwoB offscreen. Plus all those short glimpses in Bran's visio-rama. The show is clearly tying things back together and getting ready for the endgame. 

[Knuckles]

Random thought...if the Frey and Lannister armies are both at Riverrun for the siege, wouldn't it be nice if someone and some armed men showed up at the Twins and took out Walder and his brood? Hey, Brotherhood without Banners...use your wits, everyone does not have to make an appearance at the same battle, and a smaller force could make hash of the family Frey.

Worst daddy in Westeros...Tywin was an easy earlier winner, but Randall is a strong contender, and he ain't dead yet. Roose, Walder and Craster were not deserving of any cards on Father's Day either. Most disappointed dad...Jaime.

I am still interested in the Waif's possible connection to the Frey's...if Arya needs a face and she offs the Waif, well, it might be useful to peel and pack her face for later use. Just saying.

[cambridgeguy]

This is the first that Bran has realized Robb and Cat are dead, right?  You'd think he'd be a bit more broken up about that. 

Bran was in that tree for over a year and the Three-eyed raven never told him his uncle was still around?  He's kind of a jerk.

Edited May 30, 2016 by cambridgeguy

[MarySNJ]

17 minutes ago, cambridgeguy said:

This is the first that Bran has realized Robb is dead, right?  You'd think he'd be a bit more broken up about that. 

Bran and Meera probably had a 5-10 minute head start and only a few wights tracked them down?  The army of the dead is slacking off.

In fairness to Bran in regard to Robb (also his Mother, Hodor and Summer), he was mid-vision when he realized the wights had found them and woke up, and then they were immediately under attack. There really wasn't time for him to react to what he'd seen. Then Uncle Benjen ex Machina appeared out of nowhere and we had to have his exposition.

The army of the dead is far more numerous than the shambling dozen or so that showed up there. Maybe their masters believe they don't need to rush.  

[Haleth]

I'm pretty annoyed about the rewriting for the Lannister twins.  Having Cersei more or less ordering Jaime to go to the Riverlands and him refusing on the basis of needing to be there for Cersei's trial by combat is almost EXACTLY the opposite of the book.  I prefer my Jaimes to be strong but resentful and my Cerseis to be bat shit crazy.  

As for Benjen I would bet anything that if the events at the 3ER's cave occur as they did on the show the rescuer will be Coldhands, not Benjen.  I think the show consolidated the characters and gave viewers a familiar face, the same way Jaqen was combined with the Kindly Man.  I'd be very surprised to see Benjen again in the books.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Haleth

[BooBear]

2 hours ago, sunnyface said:

Never thought that a scene with a dragon in it could be boring but TV's Dany succeeds.  This show has managed to simultaneously capture both the repetitive nature of GRRM's writing and his inability to successfully juggle the story lines after his first two books.  Dany should have been given a nap for a season or three.

Dany is the worst story-line for me this year.  That scene this week was painful. Hopefully they have done all the stalling they can. This show does not usually do deception but it would be interesting it Dany started becoming the bad guy.  I am not sure I am rooting for her any longer. Jon would be a much better ruler.

I enjoyed Ayra's story this week. There is no way I could buy her being a faceless man she is Ayra Stark and I enjoyed she just had her drop the mic moment by smacking the poison out of the woman's hands. Just me or has the play within the show really improved her plot-line? I enjoyed watching Ayra's laughter at the death of Joffrey.

I see Bran's non reaction as reasonable. He was just in a crazy long vision that he couldn't get out of and saw a ton of visions and the death of Willis. He is just trying to figure out what is real and what isn't. Maybe later he will process it all.  But right now he is just trying to get oriented.

I enjoyed Sam and Gilly but it was too long. With all the things this show has to cover, I would have liked that to be much shorter and I figure we will get more because how can Sam go to school with Gilly? If he isn't going... that will make me angry. Priorities man. 

Kings Landing is painful. I am rooting for the high sparrow at this point. Dany don't worry, the current rulers are a joke.  You won't have any trouble with them.

[Arnella]

9 hours ago, Avaleigh said:

I had so much respect for Margaery because I thought she was playing a longer game.

I think she still is but had to step it up quickly to avoid the walk of shame.  I'm sure that saving Loras is part of the overall plan.   I thought her manipulation of the Sparrow was masterful.   No doubt he knew what was happening but he still thinks he has the upper hand. 

That said, I wish Jamie had just killed them all.  I realize that this would have turned the people against them but spending show time suppressing the populace would be less annoying than this story line.

[stagmania]

6 hours ago, Nanrad said:

Arya's storyline has always showed evidence of her being reluctant to completely immerse herself in the Faceless Men philosophy. She refused to throw away Needle, she killed someone from her list, always asked questions, killed someone from her list, and could never detach herself from the kill. Then, the fact that her last mission involved watching that inaccurate play along with a woman who Arya felt wasn't deserving to die, it's honestly far from abrupt

I agree that the overall arc has been building to this, but I think the moment of her decision came off as sudden and not all that compelling. After all the time they put into this plot, I expected the resolution to be...more. Arya was one of my favorite characters initially, but along the way her story lost its spark. Hopefully her confrontation with the waif will be more satisfying, and she'll soon be on her way to rejoin a corner of the story that feels more essential.

[Macbeth]

5 hours ago, Ravenya003 said:

As good as that dinner table scene was, it was also a bit disconcerting: my brain kept trying to trick me into thinking I was watching a new episode of Downton Abbey.

Actually I think that was exactly the vibe the showrunners were going for.  The mansion was straight out of that show. Also the servants were all there to greet them, The actor playing Randall played a similar character in Downton, and there was a similar plot - a bastard being raised by his grandfather.

  While the rest of GOT is in medieval times with the War of the Roses - Tarly's sword is on display as a heirloom.  He sneered at the thought that the knight's watch were hunting bunnies not stags, but really with all of the wars and weather - food is pretty scarce up there right now.

I was really glad Sam took the sword.  I would have been pissed if he left without it.  The valyrian sword is needed for the battle to come and should not be left to gather dust.

So who gets Heartsbane?  I think it's Jorah - taking my reasons to speculation.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Macbeth

[Maximum Taco]

6 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Does anyone else think it's unlikely that young actress paid the Faceless Men to kill the older actress?  At least in the books, we know that the FM don't come cheap, and she doesn't seem like the type to have the cash.  I wonder if Jaqen set this up, knowing that Arya would be unlikely to follow through, because it would lead to another opportunity that was bigger (such as joining the troupe to perform for Walder Frey).  As a bonus, she could get rid of an irritating acolyte (who also doesn't seem to be No One). 

The Faceless Men never set a price so high that it is impossible to pay. The price is always high, but never impossible. Everyone can afford their services so long as they are willing to give everything they have (the Faceless Men might not ask for everything, but then again they might.) This could be money, or possessions, or someone's life, or their own life, or a task done, or a promise made. 

The young actress could've paid with a family heirloom that is practically worthless, but priceless to her. She could've paid with the life of a dear one. She could've paid with a promise. Or she might have paid with some savings. Remember she's not asking the Faceless Men to kill the Sealord of Braavos, or the King of the Seven Kingdoms, she's asking them to kill an actress. In the long run it's not a terribly difficult job and might not cost too much.

I don't think this was a set up. The Faceless Men never kill without a contract, and they are dedicated to fulfilling a contract once it is accepted. If Lady Crane wasn't a contract there is no way they'd send Arya after her, even if they think she won't follow through, it's not worth the risk that she would. If Lady Crane is a contract they expect her (and only her) to be dead when they send an agent after her.

Also remember that "Jaqen" isn't "Jaqen" he might not even care about Arya necessarily and is simply using the face to prey upon Arya's vulnerabilities.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[sumiregusa]

7 hours ago, BloatedGuppy said:

I'll put it as plainly as I can. Even if you're a show fanatic who never read and do not care for the books, even if you thought seasons 4 and 5 were the cat's pajamas, love the excess and the special effects, and think the show is campy good fun. The quality of the writing on the show is teetering on disastrous. There was a show-written scene in season 1 between Robert and Cersei in which he lectures her on the Dothraki and "5 and 1", suggesting that a unified force will beat a larger, scattered one. It was a strong scene, and spoke true to their characters. All hint of that level of competence in writing has long fled. The dialogue is now cringeworthy. For every marginal, acceptable line there's at least three that have me squirming with disbelief. I'd find some other shows to compare it to, but generally shows with writing this bad just get cancelled. It doesn't bode well for future quality.

The way they're setting things up, it appears we'll get either approximations or echoes of book events such as Jaime/Blackfish, The North Remembers, and possibly more. If an effort is made to incorporate book dialogue, those scenes should shine. There's some quality performers in the cast, and the production quality still ranges from strong to acceptable. If, however, the show continues to ad hoc its new brand of anachronistic dialogue it's going to become flatly unwatchable. You can only bury so much of the writing with spectacle, the show just doesn't have the budget to NOT have at least 50% of the running time being "folks sitting around talking". 

Anyway, yeah. Sorry to be the resident crank, but bad show is bad, and getting worse with each outing. They need to hire new writers yesterday.

Um hell yes? I couldn't have said it any better. This is my exact level of disgust with the writing on this show. I'll be the crank with you.

[Sakura12]

Dany could've just showed up on Drogon's back and said follow me or let's take back Mereen. 

[AndySmith]

I know they have their fans, but if I never saw Sam and Gilly ever again, and had their screen time allotted to other more interesting characters (ie, just about anyone else), I'd be so much more happy.

Edited May 30, 2016 by AndySmith

[GrailKing]

From GRRM:

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2016/05/game-of-thrones-brienne-ser-duncan-the-tall-george-rr-martin

This confirms what a lot of book readers surmised. 

[CofCinci]

10 hours ago, Minneapple said:

The dragon is some impressive CGI, but what the hell, Dany. Did you read ahead in the scripts and figure out that the Ironborn are bringing you ships? Because why the hell are you making a big speech to the Dothraki army about getting on the wooden horse if you don't have any wooden horses?

Dany is reading the spoilers at /r/freefolk.

[MarySNJ]

23 minutes ago, AndySmith said:

I know they have their fans, but if I never saw Sam and Gilly ever again, and had their screen time allotted to other more interesting characters (ie, just about anyone else), I'd be so much more happy.

I'm interested in what Sam will find or learn at the Citadel, but the Sam/Gilly story doesn't seem to have any purpose at this point.  Having someone to care about gave Sam a reason to take action, leave the Wall and start a new storyline. Gilly and the baby are tag along at this point. It's too bad because I like Hannah Murray. 

[Maximum Taco]

6 hours ago, loki567 said:

The problems with Dany: One, all her "epic," scenes are some variation of big speech or fire. Emilia Clark does them well, but still.

Two, her successes feel incredibly unearned. I mean compare her to Jon and Sansa and everything they've gone through to get 4,000 measly wildlings. Their struggles have been brutal and makes their successes and failures feel more potent. Dany just has armies laying around her feet at this point. The writing's undercut most of her characterization from the books and have basically made her into epic girl, who has no real personality or development and just exists to give satisfying moments to the audience.

Pretty much.
 

Quote

Dany: I sure could use three dragons.

TPTB: Here you go!

Dany: I sure could use an army of devoted slave soldiers.

TPTB: Here you go!

Dany: I sure could use a city.

TPTB: Here you go!

Dany: I sure could use a Dothraki khalasar, wait make that every Dothraki khalasar.

TPTB: Here you go!

Dany: I sure could use 1000 ships.

TPTB:...

Dany: I said: I SURE COULD USE 1000 SHIPS!

TPTB: WE'RE WORKING ON IT! GIVE US A GODDAMN SECOND!

 

The other problem is despite all the advantages that Dany has handed to her, she has the least progression towards her goal. Jon and Sansa just established their goal of trying to retake Winterfell, and they are already further along in their goal that Dany is of her goal of claiming the Iron Throne, which she has been working towards for 5+ seasons. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[nksarmi]

I think Marg is scamming - she looked touched when she saw her father and his men and I think she smirked when she saw her grandmother. I know she went along with the plan, but I don't believe she drank the kool-aid - she just had to do something to save herself and Loras. And I don't think it's coincidence that she saw how broken Loras was and started on this path. I think she's trying to save her brother which unless they killed all the sparrows and apparently Tommen's KG - her family still couldn't have saved him with that show of strength. They could have only saved her.

[BooBear]

34 minutes ago, MarySNJ said:

I'm interested in what Sam will find or learn at the Citadel, but the Sam/Gilly story doesn't seem to have any purpose at this point.  Having someone to care about gave Sam a reason to take action, leave the Wall and start a new storyline. Gilly and the baby are tag along at this point. It's too bad because I like Hannah Murray. 

I think it would have been a better way to handle this like they did with Bran, we just see Sam and Gilly after the training.  We knew Sam's dad was a jerk. I don't know why we needed to see it close up other than fan service.

Quote

The other problem is despite all the advantages that Dany has handed to her, she has the least progression towards her goal.

When she was in Mereen I liked the story-line because she was learning something challenging that she wasn't ready for. She was also more sympathetic because she saw how her great pronouncements effected others. But this year she has been off the rails. Just doing what she wants. And also, it is irritating that in a world where most women are raped and abused (including cerci being forced to walk naked in the streets) nothing bad ever happens to Danny. Not that I want it to but seems a little silly that everything just works out for her. I just hope this season improves for her.

[nksarmi]

Oh and I'm sorry but when you realize that the High Sparrow has power (yes because of Cersei but he was building his power base before her) precisely because war between the great houses is bad for the little people and then Dany talks about destroying Westerous and everyone who opposes her - you start to understand why the little people embrace him. That and it seems like they aren't trying to make Dany look like a hero anymore, not even a displaced rightful ruler, but instead a power-hungry conqueror. Especially when she is talking to a band of murderers and rapists and the priestesses who support her are talking about her dragon purifying non-believers with fire. I mean shit, Mel was always the reason I couldn't go full-on Team Stannis.

GRRM is drawing on conflicting images of fire - one that it's evil and used to punish and two that it purifies and leads to new life. The Red God doesn't seem like a good god but his followers have power and his only competition seems to be death. So the old gods or the seven should probably do something soon to help us figure out who the hell the good guys are in this story.

But yea, Dany is not looking like a hero at this point. I hope Jon doesn't have to fight her. I'm hoping he can turn her toward the Great War as the priestess put it and she can just die that way. Because girl is not fit to rule - even Daario can see that.

[Ambrosefolly]

4 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

I didn't find anything different. EC has been playing Dany with that same mixture of pride and underlying Targaryen madness for quite a while. I do think Dany will find herself working for the wrong side or something like that (mostly I don't trust those dragons at all, they're way too close to R'hllor for me), but maybe she can figure that out just before it's too late. Maybe the WWs will open her eyes. 

See, I don't think Dany is crazy at all. I doubt anyone, man or woman, wouldn't be a little drunk with power at this point in the game, especially when her successes seem to be god(s) directed. It was why Stannis had Mellisandre at his left hand: she was getting the victories for him through her fire god. You be up against armies of literal millions, but if God himself is apparently on your side, they can be easily defeated.

She hatched petrified dragon eggs in a fire that didn't burn her and she managed to burn alive a bunch of strapping Khals without barely a hair out of place, though no clothes. She doesn't have to prove that she is stronger, smarter, or even the best ruler at this point, she has been showing that the gods themselves want her to rule. Not exactly like Robb's surprising tactical prowess on the battlefield that convinced men to follow him that unnerved Tywin enough to resort to dirty tricks and breaking the social customs. This isn't even the High Sparrow who only thinks he knows what the gods want. Supernatural forces are obviously protecting her and giving her power.

I also don't think that Dany is becoming a villain or being built up for a big fall like Ramsey, especially after her scene last episode with Jorah.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Ambrosefolly

[Athena]

1 hour ago, BooBear said:

When she was in Mereen I liked the story-line because she was learning something challenging that she wasn't ready for. She was also more sympathetic because she saw how her great pronouncements effected others. But this year she has been off the rails. Just doing what she wants. And also, it is irritating that in a world where most women are raped and abused (including cerci being forced to walk naked in the streets) nothing bad ever happens to Danny. Not that I want it to but seems a little silly that everything just works out for her. I just hope this season improves for her.

I think a lot of bad stuff has happened to Dany though. Her childhood was really awful compared to most of the Westeros characters. She had a crazy brother who saw her as pawn and piece of meat. He emotionally and physically abused her. She never had a stable or loving home life. She was sold off into marriage to a man she didn't want to be married to. Then when things get somewhat stable for her, her husband dies, her baby dies, and she's rendered infertile. She's had some struggles a ruler too mostly in regards to Mereen. 

I didn't mind the Mereen storyline because Dany has a really great supporting cast, first with Jorah, then Selmy, and hopefully reunited with Tyrion and Varys. Not to mention I like Missandei and GW. I do miss the Dany of S02 who really had doubts about her life. She was the one who yearned for a real home. Ser Barristan was good for her too since she had to face the fact her family has an awful legacy. I do agree that Dany's character development has been rendered to a lot of epic moments lately except I did love her and Jorah's scene last week. More of that please.

I hope the season improves for her as well. I did feel like the end was tacked on. I was worried for her white horse there and I really hope her other dragons escape or are completely released at some point.

[Nanrad]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

I agree that the overall arc has been building to this, but I think the moment of her decision came off as sudden and not all that compelling. After all the time they put into this plot, I expected the resolution to be...more. Arya was one of my favorite characters initially, but along the way her story lost its spark. Hopefully her confrontation with the waif will be more satisfying, and she'll soon be on her way to rejoin a corner of the story that feels more essential.

Her decision to leave was abrupt, but the motivation for her to leave had been building up. We've see that she wants to be there, but Arya was unable to part from her name and humanity. As a result, she had to leave or be forced to deal with the consequences or disobeying the FM for a second time, which could either be a worse punishment than losing her vision and being poor or death. There was no way she could go back and that decision was cemented for her once she allowed Lady Crane to live. Because it isn't just the not killing that she has to answer for, but she has been faking the no one part.

====

The HS has grated for a while, but I truly knew he was full of shit when he announced the marriage between church and crown. When has that EVER gone well? Then the whole, "We don't recognize King Tommen's power here blah, blah, blah", BUT agreed to a union which has to recognize Tommen's power. Either now or eventually, that's going to bite the HS in the ass because Tommen will be just as powerful in not more in the eyes of his religion. Initially, he could say that the King's power isn't recognized, now he can't. And if Margery is still playing the game, which I believe she is, she knows this. 

[Sakura12]

Margery is definitely playing the long game and did in a way that benefits her. She's got the Sparrow believing she's been turned, didn't have to walk naked through the streets, got the King to back the Faith and be against his mother and got the commoners to once again cheer for her. Hopefully she can see it through to the end. She is playing a more dangerous game now. Hopefully she can see the HS's sin is his pride. 

She does love her brother, but he's not going to help her, he's given up. The only way to get out of her predicament is to do it herself. 

Edited May 30, 2016 by Sakura12

[Nanrad]

I don't feel like Dany's successes are unearned even when compared to the Starks.

Dany lived a shitty life until she took control of it, which sorta started when she killed her brother, but the true catalyst was when her husband died and she lost her child before birthing the dragons in fire. That's some pretty intense shit. The Starks lived a very privileged life until the King's Hand died. They had to work harder because their privilege was stripped from them and they are/were naive on how other cultures and politics work, but they've also had help too. Yes, their successes are worth more in our eyes because of how hard they worked for them, but I think Dany's biggest problems in her storylines are: repetitiveness and lack of introspection. We've seen this all before from her--show us something new. 

With Dany, it's truly a question of motivation. Why does she want to rule the Seven Kingdom's? From what we've seen, Dany has anger and motivation to take back the land that is "rightfully" hers, but she hasn't really discussed what it means to rule and what she wants for the people. Freedom is not only vague, but relative so it doesn't give us much.  She hasn't really sat down and discussed the culture and politics of the lands she's trying to acquire, which we've seen backfire on in Meeren. We don't know if she really wants to rule other than for revenge. She comes off as mostly misguided and as Daarios (is that his name???) said, she was really made to conquer NOT rule. 

Dany is someone who leads the battle NOT rules a kingdom

Edited May 30, 2016 by Nanrad
autocorrect

[kittykat]

4 hours ago, Conan Troutman said:

Finally someone put Hannah Murrah out of that burlap sack! Still not enough for the best costume of the week award though, that clearly goes to Mace Tyrell and his fabulous hat. 

Olenna's reaction was priceless.  Someone really should get him a dunce cap with Lord Oaf of Highgarden embroaidered on there.

 

38 minutes ago, Athena said:

I think a lot of bad stuff has happened to Dany though. Her childhood was really awful compared to most of the Westeros characters. She had a crazy brother who saw her as pawn and piece of meat. He emotionally and physically abused her. She never had a stable or loving home life. She was sold off into marriage to a man she didn't want to be married to. Then when things get somewhat stable for her, her husband dies, her baby dies, and she's rendered infertile. She's had some struggles a ruler too mostly in regards to Mereen. 

And part of her motivation of staying in Meereen was to learning to rule not just fearmonger like her father did.  She saw the big picture; if she left Slavers Bay for Westeros right after conquering Meereen everything would've gone back to the way it was.  She's already lost Astapor and Yunkai and when she started out she was trying to give people who have never had a voice a chance to be heard out.  Even when she negotiates by deciding to marry Hizdahr and reopening the fighting pits the harpies still try to kill her.  Has she made all the right decisions?  Absolutely no but I wouldn't say everything has been handed to her.  And as you said she had thirteen years of "YOU DON'T WANT TO WAKE THE DRAGON!" I think she is descending a little into madness but I'm still intrigued as to how her story plays out especially if she gets the backup Greyjoy fleet. 

[rubyred]

It's so interesting to read commentary in the Book Talk threads, because though I haven't read them and have no intention of reading them, TBH, it's a point of curiosity to me how the show does and doesn't diverge from the text. Ordinarily I prefer to read source material before seeing an adaptation, but this particular type of fantasy fiction doesn't really resonate for me, and the snippets of text I've come across online I've found...disturbing, and not in a way that strikes me as entertaining. That said, I love a good story, and it's clear that GRRM loooooves this story, loves it so much in fact that he can't bear to finish it. There is a very rich and detailed world, with a deep history to mine for story, so as TV entertainment GOT is a great diversion.

But now we've arrived at the off-book point in the series. And I think we've seen already the pros and cons of having the heavy work of the writing fall to D&D instead of cribbing and condensing as much from original text. What strikes me is that even as a non-bookreader, the moments and occasionally dialogue that I find particularly compelling have invariably been derived from GRRM. Specifically the text of the Pink Letter ("come and see" - that was good) and the Hodor reveal. Where D&D show their hand as writer/producers is pacing and sometimes lazy TV characterization. Shiz is starting to happen way faster. And also, as TV creatives, they have an understanding of how much and audience can take - I think that was the reason for the Sansa/Jon reunion. The audience needed a reunion, needed the emotional payoff of a win for these characters. Even learning later that that was non-book, that Sansa/Jon so far have not been close, doesn't really negate the emotional punch of seeing that scene because the TV audience has been so battered by misery.

By lazy TV characterization I'm referring to Sam/Gilly, whose scenes have been painful Westeros Valley High exchanges ever since they met. You knew as soon as Sam told Gilly not to reveal that she was a Wildling that she would, and pretty much exactly how she would, with some embarrassing, flat-affected pronouncement at the worst possible time. (I am a little anti-Gilly, I admit, Hannah Murray has worked a nerve since Skins).

D&D also have to approach the show as producers, so for them storylines are also going to be influenced by budget. Unfortunately they want to spend more money on less and less convincing dragon CGI than Cersei's wig, but whatever. That said, I think the Hodor reveal was far more affecting as a scene than it would have been on the page.

One thing they could do is not cram all the characters into each episode. Every time the light changes and I realize we're in Meereen or the desert I think, "dang, this cast is too big."

TL;DR: There are pros and cons to being off-book, both from a writing and a producing standpoint.

[Advance35]

Overall I really liked the episode, well that's a little strong, I didn't hate the episode.

I admit I kind of geeked out when we saw Bran's flashes of the Mad King and whom I assume was Jaimie, about to cut him down.   Many have spoken of potential prequel's and I've never been on board but that little flash of history was so awesome.   It reminds me that despite his delays, GRRM is a very inventive mind.     Doesn't excuse his procrastination in my eyes though.    I've never cared or been interested in what happened to Benjen but it was cool to see him again too.

Arya, still bored for the most part.  I love Essie Davis so I found her talk with Arya very effecting, but still I feel it, Arya is and always will be trouble.  The little brat got herself involved with the wrong crowd and her mistake is going to bring trouble down on what's left of House Stark when the Faceless Men come after her to settle the score.  Whomever they hurt in retaliation for Arya's desertion, it'll be on her head.  Like when she beat the snot out of Joffrey in Season 1.

The High Sparrow is one of the major players that nobody saw coming.   I do LOVE to see someone have the Highborn on the ropes.  Even the schema suprema Olenna is left to eat dirt with his latest maneuverings.  I don't buy into Margaery Tyrell's conversion for a moment, I think she did what was needed to get out of the Great Sept without having to endure the Walk of Shame Cersei did.  Ruthless in a way, that she was willing to feed Tommen to him but hey, what are you going to do.   Jaimie taking the lead in the confrontation by literally RIDING UP the steps of the Great Septs makes the High Sparrow, PUBLICLY, another House Lannister defeat.    LOVED Olenna signaling with her fan, that Mace should stand down while Jaimie continued to try and press the issue.   I swear entitlement issues aside, I really do love the old lady.  I loved her "He's beaten us." to Mace.   I also think Olenna was a sour lemon because she doesn't like anyone other then Margaery and by extension, House Tyrell, having influence over the King.   They had him 60 to 40 percent against Cersei and now it's divided into 3 parts.

I think the writers probably have Jaimie on his correct course.  I've never found him to be on the road to redemption, I've never found him especially moving so him being, ultimately dedicated to House Lannister doesn't surprise me.   After GRRM pulls whatever waste of page hijinks are needed to help Jaimie survive and escape, the ultimately useless, Lady Stoneheart, I think he'll be back doing what's he's always done.   His indignation about Tommen being taken from he and Cersei, LOL oh boy.   Sir write a letter to Ned and Catelyn Stark, one of their kids took a most unfortunate fall off a tower in their own castle.

Dany, ya I'm not seeing a heroine there.

[Ambrosefolly]

39 minutes ago, Athena said:

I think a lot of bad stuff has happened to Dany though. Her childhood was really awful compared to most of the Westeros characters. She had a crazy brother who saw her as pawn and piece of meat. He emotionally and physically abused her. She never had a stable or loving home life. She was sold off into marriage to a man she didn't want to be married to. Then when things get somewhat stable for her, her husband dies, her baby dies, and she's rendered infertile. She's had some struggles a ruler too mostly in regards to Mereen. 

I didn't mind the Mereen storyline because Dany has a really great supporting cast, first with Jorah, then Selmy, and hopefully reunited with Tyrion and Varys. Not to mention I like Missandei and GW. I do miss the Dany of S02 who really had doubts about her life. She was the one who yearned for a real home. Ser Barristan was good for her too since she had to face the fact her family has an awful legacy. I do agree that Dany's character development has been rendered to a lot of epic moments lately except I did love her and Jorah's scene last week. More of that please.

I hope the season improves for her as well. I did feel like the end was tacked off. I was worried for her white horse there and I really hope her other dragons escape or are completely released at some point.

This might be my misogyny  talking but I don't think her childhood, while shitty, was somehow more specially bad than a lot of people. I think a part of me pities Viserys. Not only did he get the shit genetics when it came to being a Targeryan, (all of the crazy without any of the fireproof ability) he was hunted along with Dany.  Now, I do think Dany put up with his behavior as long as she could stand it because of being hunted by assassins together, but it isn't like Viserys (according to the books) wasn't going to be used as any less off a pawn, as he was supposed to be married off the Doran's daughter for revenge, and the Sand Snakes wouldn't be any nicer to him than Drogo and the Dorthaki were to Dany if he mistreated their cousin. Being married off isn't something unique. It seems all high borns are married off. Luckily for Dany, she managed to fall in love with Drogo, while someone like Lysa wasn't that lucky (which made her vulnerable to Littlefinger).

Sam grew up with that abusive asshat, and Gilly was married off to her own father yet no is suggesting that either of them should rule anything.

[BloatedGuppy]

16 minutes ago, rubyred said:

That said, I love a good story, and it's clear that GRRM loooooves this story, loves it so much in fact that he can't bear to finish it.

It's interesting to hear you say this. The overwhelming sense I've gotten off Martin is that he's come to actively resent the story. I sometimes wonder if the guy wishes he'd never even started it at all.

Martin was already a well celebrated author by the time he started A Song of Ice and Fire, which was originally planned as a three book series, with Book One culminating in the events of the Red Wedding. We all know how that turned out...the series began to take on unexpected scope and mass. George also began to pick up fans, and some of those fans were vocal. I recall him talking about some errors he made, regarding the gender of a horse, and something else about eye color...errors that haunted him. He began to put extra attention into detail.

After the end of the third book, he had originally planned for a "5 year gap" to speed the plot forward and age up some of the participants. Once he arrived at this juncture in his detail soaked story, he felt he could no longer do it...he wanted to cover that time period. But his plot required certain people in certain places, which involved a lot of travel, which created a nightmare of logistics and timelines he described as "The Meerenese Knot" (with so many different characters, factions and events culminating around that city). This resulted in interminable delays on books 4 and 5, which was essentially a single volume split in two (and explains why so much of those books reads like extensive travelogues with very little plot momentum and a great deal of board shuffling). During this period George's fans transitioned from "adoring" to "scornful and hyper critical". They didn't like the delays, they didn't like the new books...which were boggy, intricate, and littered with ancillary characters...and they didn't like him taking time to work on other projects, or watch football, or do anything but write. They began pestering and prodding him on social media, and he became increasingly cantankerous.

Then GoT happened, and it was (at least initially) a faithful and acclaimed adaptation of his works. He seemed reinvigorated. He did some writing and publicity for the show. This of course slowed his work on the 6th book, inviting more fan rancor. As the show marched along and became less and less faithful, his enthusiasm dimmed, and he began making backhanded comments about adaptation decay before finally ceasing to comment on it at all. George is notoriously outspoken in his hatred of "fan fiction", so you can rest assured as the show strays more and more into its own territory his distaste is mounting. He's also on record as being alarmed and depressed that the show passed him, although given the glacial speed of his writing I cannot imagine how he was surprised at this outcome.

At this point, I think the guy is half tempted to just let the whole thing drop, but ASOIAF has become his "life's work" whether he wants it to be or not, so he's sort of beholden to finish it. I think there was a point at which his creative endeavor became a toilsome errand, and it's hard to pinpoint exactly where that was, but I suspect it's "somewhere around the time it became really popular". I don't think he was psychologically prepared for the pressure popularity brought, particularly in the modern age of social media and constant audience interaction.

Anyway. Long only semi-show related spiel. TLDR - I don't think Martin loves the story at all. Quite the opposite.

Edited May 30, 2016 by BloatedGuppy

[Maximum Taco]

32 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

I don't feel like Dany's successes are unearned even when compared to the Starks.

Dany lived a shitty life until she took control of it, which sorta started when she killed her brother, but the true catalyst was when her husband died and she lost her child before birthing the dragons in fire. That's some pretty intense shit. The Starks lived a very privileged life until the King's Hand died. They had to work harder because their privilege was stripped from them and they are/were naive on how other cultures and politics work, but they've also had help too. Yes, their successes are worth more in our eyes because of how hard they worked for them, but I think Dany's biggest problems in her storylines are: repetitiveness and lack of introspection. We've seen this all before from her--show us something new. 

With Dany, it's truly a question of motivation. Why does she want to rule the Seven Kingdom's? From what we've seen, Dany has anger and motivation to take back the land that is "rightfully" hers, but she hasn't really discussed what it means to rule and what she wants for the people. Freedom is not only vague, but relative so it doesn't give us much.  She hasn't really sat down and discussed the culture and politics of the lands she's trying to acquire, which we've seen backfire on in Meeren. We don't know if she really wants to rule other than for revenge. She comes off as mostly misguided and as Dairies (is that his name???) said, she was really made to conquer NOT rule. 

Dany is someone who leads the battle NOT rules a kingdom

I think the difference is it's not proportional.

Some bad stuff happens to Dany definitely (namely Drogo's death, her miscarriage, and subsequent infertility), but she gets way too many rewards for it. After that she got 3 magic producing creatures that nobody else in the world has and a tiny pathetic khalasar. I was actually fine at this point, she has tiny dragons, useful for impressing people and definitely not nothing, but she's not gonna be setting off to westeros with hand sized dragons and a weak khalasar made up of the castoffs the other Khals didn't want.

But then she gets an army of devoted slave soldiers, a city, and every khalasar, by losing pretty much nothing. Like what losses did she suffer between those successes? Rakaro died (who? exactly.) and Barristan and a few Unsullied. Meereen collapsing around her was the first hardship she faced since Drogo's death, and Tyrion just shows up to handle that for her. And she gets a brand spanking new army too!

Jon and Sansa on the other hand go through just as much hardship (Sansa more) and go from having everything to being practically (and literally dead) and they currently have 2000 Wildlings, that Jon earned by DYING for them, and that's not even close to the number they need to face off with Ramsay.

The success to hardship ratio is not even close to even. And I'm not saying it has to be, some people do get unproportionally rewarded and some people work really hard and get a royal screw job. But you can see why some people feel like Dany's successes are coming too easily.

Edited May 30, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[WearyTraveler]

10 hours ago, Eyes High said:

This seemed more like a coach psyching up the team before a big game: the Dothraki equivalent of "clear eyes, full hearts, can't lose," if you will.

I think that was the intention too (great reference, BTW!), but it didn't work so much for me.

Let me say first that I like Dany; I like her character in the books, and I like a lot of her stuff on the show.  Also, I think she has suffered her fair share, even if the show hasn't always been good at showing it.  There's the stuff Athena pointed out upthread, but there's also stuff from her internal monologue that didn't make it on the show (i.e how she feels after Mirri and Jorah's betrayals, the grueling travels across the Red Waste, her frustrations at Qarth), and the complexities of the politics in Slaver's Bay (Astapor, Yunka'i, Meereen) which can never be properly conveyed on the show, given that they don't have all the time in the world and that no show could afford the amount of money it would cost in sets and number of actors needed. 

At the end of book 5 Dany is loosing Slaver's Bay, Astapor and Yunka'i are in the hands of the Slave Masters, Meereen is under siege, the pale mare is decimating her citizens and her fighters, and the Sons of the Harpy are wreaking havoc from within.  A number of things happen that seem to indicate the tide is turning for Dany at the end of book 5, but it's not all flowers and rainbows.

I also don't think Dany's mad.  Her internal monologue in the books is quite rational and there's nothing to indicate, to me, that she's on the path to becoming Aerys.

All of that said, the speech at the end of this episode got a "meh" from me. There's gratuitous nudity, gratuitous violence, and now, gratuitous power displays.  And that's the main reason the speech fell flat for me.  If she had given them this speech as they gaze upon a fleet waiting in the water to take them to Westeros, it would have been a great speech, with perfect timing.  But they were just riding down to Meereen, not even close to the city yet.  There were no signs of dissent or rebellion, no threat in sight.  There was no immediate need to work the Dothraki into a frenzy, and thus, the speech and the dragon were not necessary.

I suspect that since the episode was less action packed and less tense than the 5 that preceded it, D&D just wanted to close with a big "holly shit!" moment, and they know dragons!!!! generally do the trick. 

[Constantinople]

If I understand correctly, Dany has had everything handed to her because dragons, but Jon being raised from the dead is an example of him pulling himself up by his own bootstraps?

[Raachel2008]

I don't believe for a second Margaery has been converted, either, though it could be an interesting twist if she did. But her main goal is saving Loras and converting is a way to try to spare him from whatever the High Sparrow has planned - it is an exchange really, one I'm pretty sure the HS is full aware. His smugness at the scene with Jamie was on my top ten "hate this fucker, kill him now" scenes. Tommen,  on the other hand, totally bought the HS's ideas.

I felt really bad for Jamie when he said that Tommen was "my/our son", because it was like, what, the fourth time he has ever acknowledged  paternity, and more important than that, his love for his children/nephews. However, Jamie (and Cersei, and King's Landing as whole) has been suffering all season, there is a plot there and a good one, but this plot is not being delivered smoothly. This is the only way I can explain it. Like, those kisses at the end, come on. Those two barely showed real affection in these 6 episodes, never mind that  raw passion that made incestuous siblings. This is exactly the same problem with Sansa becoming a war strategist; all what was needed were those small scenes here and there. Things are  disjointed and it shows, specially compared to the much more exciting North stories.

Finally the Arya plot is going somewhere, hopefully by episode 4 of season 7 she will meet Sansa, Jon, Bran. Waif is a goner, and is there is a chance she is Jaqen's child? I'm asking because tehy kind of look alike, and she clearly adores him and resents his interest in Arya, so... 

I don't mind Sam and Gilly in very small doses, they are adorable, but this was a just filler so he could get the sword.  I honestly don't want to see his trainning at all. 

Benjen, FINALLY. That was the hightlight of the episode for me. All this time I wanted him to show up and meet Jon beause Jon could have used some family love, but I'm glad he saved Meera and Bran. I wonder if he is the one who will help Bran figure what happened with Lyanna?

Look, it is very easy to know when something did NOT come from GGRM: in the books there would never have been a scene where Danaerys asks how many ships she needs and then Daario says, supriiiiise, 1,000. Not "hundreds" or "more than you can expect in two years of hard work because we don't have all that wood available". It was an insult to our collective intelligency, because we know Yara and Theon have a shit ton of ships in their hands AND the sailors - what, Danaerys think all she needs is the ships and not experienced sailors?

Edited May 30, 2016 by Raachel2008

[MrWhyt]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Look, it is very easy to know when something did NOT come from GGRM: in the books there would never have been a scene where Danaerys asks how many ships she needs and then Daario says, supriiiiise, 1,000. Not "hundreds" or "more than you can expect in two years of hard work because we don't have all that wood available". It was an insult to our collective intelligency, because we know Yara and Theon have a shit ton of ships in their hands AND the sailors - what, Danaerys think all she needs is the ships and not experienced sailors?

Yara and Theon don't have 1000 ships though.

[Nanrad]

42 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

This might be my misogyny  talking but I don't think her childhood, while shitty, was somehow more specially bad than a lot of people. I think a part of me pities Viserys. Not only did he get the shit genetics when it came to being a Targeryan, (all of the crazy without any of the fireproof ability) he was hunted along with Dany.  Now, I do think Dany put up with his behavior as long as she could stand it because of being hunted by assassins together, but it isn't like Viserys (according to the books) wasn't going to be used as any less off a pawn, as he was supposed to be married off the Doran's daughter for revenge, and the Sand Snakes wouldn't be any nicer to him than Drogo and the Dorthaki were to Dany if he mistreated their cousin. Being married off isn't something unique. It seems all high borns are married off. Luckily for Dany, she managed to fall in love with Drogo, while someone like Lysa wasn't that lucky (which made her vulnerable to Littlefinger).

Sam grew up with that abusive asshat, and Gilly was married off to her own father yet no is suggesting that either of them should rule anything.

Terrible childhoods are relative, but that doesn't make hers any less terrible. Although Viserys got shit genetics, he didn't know that until he was killed. Before then, he didn't mind being abusive/treating his sister like shit. They both were hunted, but he didn't give a damn about Dany if it wasn't furthering his own agenda. 

[Oscirus]

Quote

Two, her successes feel incredibly unearned. I mean compare her to Jon and Sansa and everything they've gone through to get 4,000 measly wildlings. Their struggles have been brutal and makes their successes and failures feel more potent. Dany just has armies laying around her feet at this point.

And if you compare her to Arya who's picking up FM skills without having to go through any loss whatsoever, (hell, if she doesn't take down the whole organization by the end of this season, I'd be shocked) and the amount of loss/ earning she's done has been nill then Dany's success would look earned. Different circumstances warrant  different successes and costs.

I actually think Dany would be compelling as a villain. You  have someone trying to do something right, but they can't because they're going about it the wrong way or they're not the right person for that job. The only other villain on this show that's even close to such a description was early season Theon. Being a villain isn't a negative thing. Especially not on this show.

[Haleth]

16 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

Yara and Theon don't have 1000 ships though.

Maybe they'll pick up more on the way, the way Vic did.

1 hour ago, rubyred said:

(I am a little anti-Gilly, I admit, Hannah Murray has worked a nerve since Skins).

Ugh, she is such a better character on the show.  In the books all she does is whimper and snivel for hundreds of pages.  I much prefer the feisty girl who sasses Randyll Tarly.