S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[Tikichick]

I remember Viserys being eager to marry Dany to Drogo because of the resources it provided Viserys to reclaim his throne.  Viserys was all about utilizing Dany as his pawn in order to claim HIS throne.  He became disturbed when the marriage seemed to elevate Dany without putting anything he could claim or control within his grasp.  

[benteen]

14 hours ago, Constantinople said:

Given the distance between Horn Hill and Castle Black it seemed a little odd that Randyll Tarly was the first Southerner to give three shakes of a rat's ankle about fighting the wildlings for generations.

THIS.  When he was complaining about the Wildlings I wanted to yell out "You've never even SEEN a Wildling."

Tarly is the greatest soldier in Westeros but it's interesting to hear that while he and Dickon were hunting, Sam was participating in the most important war currently going on in the world.

[OakGoblinFly]

I've learned that I much prefer episodes about events at The Wall - so this one fell mostly flat for me.  I did like Benjen and the fact that Jamie is finally (FINALLY) going to Riverrun.

 

I guess this is confirmation that Benjen is indeed Coldhands - or not.  It was really nice to see him come to Bran's rescue.  Speaking of Bran, I really need to re-watch the visions sequence because I thought there were some new elements interspersed with what we’ve already seen.

 

On a totally shallow note, how incredible did Nikolaj Coster-Waldau look storming up to the High Sept on his horse?

 

Hi Sam’s family, bye Sam’s family.

 

Thank goodness Arya went back for Needle; now maybe her story will become interesting.

 

Oh look, Dany is back on her dragon screaming at people about how she’s going to take her birthright, blah, blah, blah, blah.  I think the producers were going for “inspiring” in that scene, what they got was laughable; between the really, really bad CGI and Clarke going all shrill during her speech my eyes rolled so hard I gave myself a headache.

[Ottis]

Quote

 

I was kind of surprised to read that so many didn't like this episode.  It was confusing to me, and then I realized why that is.

I want it over, an ending, much more than I care about what happens as they get there.  This episode, more than any other has moved several stories far ahead of the books, so I loved it! 

 

And I think I know why so many people didn't like it: Without the books to guide it, GoT has become conventional TV. All the examples you provide for the future are predictable TV fare. Scorned, powerless Sam becomes key to victory; once powerful fighter humbled and then returns to power with revenge in his heart; abused woman finds inner strength to lead a nation, etc. GRRM had a way of taking these tropes and making them interesting. For instance, Dany may have power but he clearly hinted, both in her origins and behavior, that she might actually be crazy. This season, the show seems to miss that, and is playing everything too straight. That appeals to the masses, however, it makes GoT the worse for it.

This season has felt curiously empty, even as it has moved threads in a direction that seems to make sense. And I think the above explanation is why. It's nice and neat to have the Monty Python Pike people say they will build a thousand ships, and then Dany's team to say they need a thousand ships, but it's just too obvious and expected.

[paigow]

58 minutes ago, Haleth said:

Worse-- bickering teenage girls who want to be daddy's Jaqen's favorite.

Braavos 90210; Pretty Little Killers; The Braavos Bunch....

[darkestboy]

Bit of a dull episode to be honest. Dany's speech at the end even with Drogon reappearing was just so basic. Her grand speeches are starting to lose a little effect to them.

Arya clearly was going to change her minds about the Faceless Man and saving Lady Crane sealed her fate. Plus side, the Waif isn't long for this world either.

Sam and Gilly should never get this amount of screen time. They're okay characters in small doses not big ones but I did like Sam's mother/sister, indifferent to his brother, hated his father etc.

Margaery seems to be completely swayed by the Faith and Jamie/Olenna were bested by them too due to Tommen's stupidity. Cersei seems a little too calm about the whole thing but at least they're picking up the Riverrun storyline.

Wasn't best pleased to see Walder Frey back but hopefully this means he's a goner soon though.

Bran and Meera's storyline picked up slightly with the visions of the Mad King and Benjen's reappearance but this was easily the weakest we've had this season, 6/10

[Maximum Taco]

1 hour ago, Haleth said:

There is the speculation that some evidence is to be found in the Stark tombs.  Maybe a signed marriage certificate or something.  I dunno, I don't think it will matter either way.

Are there marriage certificates in this world? I don't remember Robb and Jeyne Talisa (urg), or Tyrion and Sansa, or Joff and Margaery, or Tommen and Margaery signing anything in their wedding scenes. Just vows in front of witnesses in the sept (or heart tree.)

Also, we haven't really seen a lot of documentation as proof in this world have we? There's not like people whipping out contracts with signatures and seals. It seems like the written word is used mostly just to send messages, and to document ancient accepted history, not to prove things that happened in closed company.

Also Ned's gonna just let a physical manifestation of Rhaegar's transgression (and Jon's legitimacy) just sit around in the Stark tombs where anyone could find it? Assuming that R+L=J, the whole reason Ned claimed Jon in the first place is he was afraid of what Robert would do if he knew there was a living Targaryen in his midst. I think its far more likely that Ned would burn such a thing. Ned's not concerned with Jon's legitimacy, he's concerned with his survival.

Also a signed marriage certificate (if there is such a thing) may prove that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, but it doesn't prove that Jon is their child. He's been publicly claimed by Ned, nobody questioned that because as Lord Baelish has said before it is impolite to pry into the matter of a man's natural children. But mysteriously and suddenly appearing trueborns are a different matter. Look at the scrutiny Aegon is facing in the books. 

There's a lot of holes in that theory is what I'm saying.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[lovetowrite73]

On 5/29/2016 at 11:00 PM, kittykat said:

Are we ever gonna see Bronn again?

You see him in the coming attractions for the next episode.

11 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I mosied over to the unsullied thoughts on this one and was not surprised that they seemed to love it, although their views on Jamie, while accurate for the show, are so sad to read, and sadly, they think Needle is made of Valyrian steel. 

Um, isn't it made of Valyrian steel?

[lmsweb]

Needle is castle forged steel, not Valyrian.

[Haleth]

18 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

There's a lot of holes in that theory is what I'm saying.

It wasn't a theory, just tossing out the idea that if an R+L marriage is going to be important (and I don't think it is) there might be some proof somewhere in writing since any witnesses are probably dead.

[Maximum Taco]

10 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

You see him in the coming attractions for the next episode.

Um, isn't it made of Valyrian steel?

No. Jon had it made for Arya, where would he get Valyrian steel?

Also the method for forging Valyrian steel has been lost, that's why there's so few Valyrian steel weapons. The only way to make a new Valyrian steel weapon now is to melt down and reforge an old weapon (Like Ice was used to make Widow's Wail and Oathkeeper.)

[nksarmi]

22 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

You see him in the coming attractions for the next episode.

Um, isn't it made of Valyrian steel?

Don't feel bad. Up until I read stillshrimpy's notes on her read through this summer - I thought it was as well. I don't know why, but I did.

[polyhymnia]

We waited and watched this one pretty late at night so I can't tell if my annoyance at the Sam and Gilly show was real or if it was because my son wasn't feeling well and interrupted it about eleventy times.  I didn't think Dickon seemed at all jerky - he seemed to at least want to connect with Sam. I am sure Gilly was a little disappointed that he didn't stand up for her but she did quite well.  That baby is ridiculously cute.  Worrisomely cute.

King's Landing was a snoozefest except Olenna's mean mugging and Tommen being so stupid and stripping uncle/daddy of the kingsguard.  That bit made me laugh a little.  I hate that they still have him madly in love with Cersei at this point.  Hope the Riverlands improves his plot.

Arya laughing when Joffrey got murdered was pretty great.  Glad she has needle back.  This probably means we won't see the incomparable Essie Davis again which is too bad.

What happened to Dany's pretty horse?  How will they keep Drogon from eating other horses?  How much control does Dany really have over him?  Were they communicating telepathically?  These were questions that I wanted to know the answers to while she was speechifying.  I didn't find her speech that problematic - she is just trying to motivate her troops.

Am I forgetting something?  Oh yes - Benjen Stark.  They should have closed with that plot, it was the best part of this episode.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Maximum Taco said:

Are there marriage certificates in this world? I don't remember Robb and Jeyne Talisa (urg), or Tyrion and Sansa, or Joff and Margaery, or Tommen and Margaery signing anything in their wedding scenes. Just vows in front of witnesses in the sept (or heart tree.)

Also, we haven't really seen a lot of documentation as proof in this world have we? There's not like people whipping out contracts with signatures and seals. It seems like the written word is used mostly just to send messages, and to document ancient accepted history, not to prove things that happened in closed company.

Also Ned's gonna just let a physical manifestation of Rhaegar's transgression (and Jon's legitimacy) just sit around in the Stark tombs where anyone could find it? Assuming that R+L=J, the whole reason Ned claimed Jon in the first place is he was afraid of what Robert would do if he knew there was a living Targaryen in his midst. I think its far more likely that Ned would burn such a thing. Ned's not concerned with Jon's legitimacy, he's concerned with his survival.

Also a signed marriage certificate (if there is such a thing) may prove that Rhaegar and Lyanna were married, but it doesn't prove that Jon is their child. He's been publicly claimed by Ned, nobody questioned that because as Lord Baelish has said before it is impolite to pry into the matter of a man's natural children. But mysteriously and suddenly appearing trueborns are a different matter. Look at the scrutiny Aegon is facing in the books. 

There's a lot of holes in that theory is what I'm saying.

Well it won't be sitting around, the theory is whatever can prove or explain Jon's heritage is in Lyanna's tomb, away from prying eyes; a signed document may be one of the items but most think it will be

three items: a Wedding cloak, Rhaeghar's harp and Thorrens Crown

.

As far as witnesses, Lyanna was sixteen, the current story starts~ 15 or so years later; people could still be alive as witnesses.

As far as witnesses we have

Howland Reed (GRRM said we see him), Wyla the milk mother whom is employed by house Dayne ( which puts House Dayne in the mix)

whether  the rest of the realm learns of his heritage no one knows, but the readers / show watchers and Jon will.

How this affects Jon no one knows, we have to wait.

[Maximum Taco]

11 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well it won't be sitting around, the theory is whatever can prove or explain Jon's heritage is in Lyanna's tomb, away from prying eyes; a signed document may be one of the items but most think it will be

  Hide contents

three items: a Wedding cloak, Rhaeghar's harp and Thorrens Crown

.

As far as witnesses, Lyanna was sixteen, the current story starts~ 15 or so years later; people could still be alive as witnesses.

As far as witnesses we have

  Hide contents

Howland Reed (GRRM said we see him), Wyla the milk mother whom is employed by house Dayne ( which puts House Dayne in the mix)

whether  the rest of the realm learns of his heritage no one knows, but the readers / show watchers and Jon will.

How this affects Jon no one knows, we have to wait.

Oh I'm sure we, as the readers/viewers will learn Jon's parentage with very little (if any) doubt as to it's validity. I'm a little skeptical as to whether Jon will. I keep coming back to GRRM's claim of a bittersweet ending, something about Jon being close to the throne (perhaps as Lord Commander of a King/Queensguard) but never knowing he should sit it is poignant to me.

Anyway I was questioning the ability to prove it in universe to the realm, and therefore give him a legitimate claim to the throne, which I don't see as possible.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[GrailKing]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

Oh I'm sure we, as the readers/viewers will learn Jon's parentage with very little (in any) doubt as to it's validity.

I was questioning the ability to prove it in universe to the realm, which I don't see as possible.

Again I think it will come down to HR, whether the rest of the realm hears or even cares don't know.

I think we will see HR, unless B & W go a different route.

We will have to wait to episode 10 or next year.

Also as I stated, people were young enough to still be alive for in show universe. 

How Jon identifies him self if he learns the news will probably be of more importance then the actual reveal.

[Sakura12]

I think Dany gives speeches to fit her crowd. I don't think she's crazy, a little power hungry but most the people in power on this show are. She's got dragons and she's fireproof, she is powerful. Her brother was crazy and only used Dany to get gains for himself. He threatened her and her unborn child that's why Khal Drogo killed him. Dany was already accepted by Drogo's Khalasar at that point. 

I don't think she'll be a good leader. Dario was right in saying she's meant to be a General leading armies while someone else leads the Seven Kingdoms.  

[Athena]

3 hours ago, stagmania said:

There's been a lot of talk about how the show has ruined Jamie, and how much they've changed him from his book characterization. I read the books so long ago (and must admit my attention wandered frequently through 4 and 5), so I only have a vague recollection of his Riverlands story. Reading the plot summary to refresh my memory, it seems that the biggest change is that the show has decided to keep he and Cersei close with no schism between them, either because he somehow still doesn't know about her betrayals or he doesn't care, and in doing so they've essentially erased his redemption arc. Is that the bulk of the issue? I do wonder why they would choose to remove layers of complexity from his character, as well as a good source of drama in he and his sister being at odds. It just makes the story less compelling.

For me, Book Jaime had one of the best character arc in the books. I became really annoyed or indifferent to most of the characters I previously adored early in the books: Tyrion, Dany, and even Jon at times. However, with Jaime, he went from some two bit incestuous villain to a very nuanced and complex character in the later books. His ordeal and relationship with Brienne launched a great storyline. After he loses his hand, he pushes a lot of people away including Cersei and this is when he starts seeing her for who she is. It does not mean he doesn't love her; he always will, but he begins to see the bigger picture of life in KL. He tries his best to actually be a good guy, but no one listens to him so he goes over to Riverrun which is not my favourite time in his life, but this is where he rejects Cersei's plea for help when she is imprisoned. There's a ton of internal struggle and alienation that happens with Jaime as he changes in the books.

On the show, he's left to propping her up. He's still blindly in love with her and does not see her faults. NCW can act as we saw in S3, but he's not really using many of his skills lately. He's become a bit pathetic if you think about it. I agree that it's much less compelling and I am hoping that with him out of KL, the writing can shift another way for him.

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Again I think it will come down to HR, whether the rest of the realm hears or even cares don't know.

I think we will see HR, unless B & W go a different route.

We will have to wait to episode 10 or next year.

Also as I stated, people were young enough to still be alive for in show universe. 

How Jon identifies him self if he learns the news will probably be of more importance then the actual reveal.

How Jon identifies himself will be fascinating.  He held Ned in such high esteem and was so proud to be his son -- and yet ached to be "really" his son. 

I've just realized how intrigued I am by the idea of Lady Stoneheart's reaction to Jon's identity, even moreso now that he too has come back from death.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Tikichick
Added detail

[Harald Hardrada]

5 hours ago, Haleth said:

Worse-- bickering teenage girls who want to be daddy's Jaqen's favorite.

 

There is the speculation that some evidence is to be found in the Stark tombs.  Maybe a signed marriage certificate or something.  I dunno, I don't think it will matter either way.

NOOOOO!  Leave Rollo alone!  

  Reveal hidden contents

He's busy founding a dynasty in Paris!

 (And is too clean beautiful to be Victarion.)

Yeah, they need someone muscular and much more villainous look. Danish actor/bodybuilder Kim Kold comes to mind. I wish they do a battle scene of him with that hulking Robert Strong, Cersei's lapdog.

[Raachel2008]

42 minutes ago, Tikichick said:

How Jon identifies himself will be fascinating.  He held Ned in such high esteem and was so proud to be his son -- and yet ached to be "really" his son. 

I've just realized how intrigued I am by the idea of Lady Stoneheart's reaction to Jon's identity, even moreso now that he too has come back from death.

Hell, no, fuck Lady Stoneheart, fuck Catelyn Stark in all shapes and forms. If there is a character I don't want ever around again is her, and I don't care if it derails from the books. Aside being a bitch to Jon, she was an idiot who made some of the supidiest decisions in this show. 

But yes, I think it will break Jon's heart to know he was never Ned's son, the thing he wanted the most, IMO, and it will crush him to know that on top of that he remains a bastard. Assuming this all happens, I would love Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon to say "fuck all that, you will always be a Stark".

And by the way, whatever GGRM has said about Jon not knowing he should sit on the throne, I think it doesn't matter anymore. The show is an entity in itself and there is no way D&D will no have Jon knowing (if R + L = J) that he should/could sit on the throne. He may chose to not sit on it, he may not want it, but you bet he will know.

[GrailKing]

7 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Hell, no, fuck Lady Stoneheart, fuck Catelyn Stark in all shapes and forms. If there is a character I don't want ever around again is her, and I don't care if it derails from the books. Aside being a bitch to Jon, she was an idiot who made some of the supidiest decisions in this show. 

But yes, I think it will break Jon's heart to know he was never Ned's son, the thing he wanted the most, IMO, and it will crush him to know that on top of that he remains a bastard. Assuming this all happens, I would love Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon to say "fuck all that, you will always be a Stark".

And by the way, whatever GGRM has said about Jon not knowing he should sit on the throne, I think it doesn't matter anymore. The show is an entity in itself and there is no way D&D will no have Jon knowing (if R + L = J) that he should/could sit on the throne. He may chose to not sit on it, he may not want it, but you bet he will know.

On one hand it may break his heart he's not Ned's son, but on the other hand he's the son of Lyanna and has Stark blood ( I'm pretty sure he'll learn about mom, maybe his dad too), as far as Cat, she may have been less than kind to Jon, and without doubt she screwed up with Tyrion, but she gave Robb good advice and he didn't take it, and like Ned she never thought that LF would change as he got older or after what happened between him and Brandon.

I like Cat, meh on LSH, I like her more if she only went after the real people who destroyed her family .

[Umbelina]

5 hours ago, Ottis said:

And I think I know why so many people didn't like it: Without the books to guide it, GoT has become conventional TV. All the examples you provide for the future are predictable TV fare. Scorned, powerless Sam becomes key to victory; once powerful fighter humbled and then returns to power with revenge in his heart; abused woman finds inner strength to lead a nation, etc. GRRM had a way of taking these tropes and making them interesting. For instance, Dany may have power but he clearly hinted, both in her origins and behavior, that she might actually be crazy. This season, the show seems to miss that, and is playing everything too straight. That appeals to the masses, however, it makes GoT the worse for it.

This season has felt curiously empty, even as it has moved threads in a direction that seems to make sense. And I think the above explanation is why. It's nice and neat to have the Monty Python Pike people say they will build a thousand ships, and then Dany's team to say they need a thousand ships, but it's just too obvious and expected.

Yeah, I don't worship at the alter that is GRRM.  I think his "nuance" is good at times, but mostly he simply can't stick to any point, he's like a spoiled child who sees some shiny candy he'd rather have (write about) and instead of finishing his dinner, runs after it, then decides he'll prove that was the right choice by giving us details about how the candy was made, who first made it, who their parents were, and their gr gr gr gr grandparents were, and how they got the idea to make candy from some ancient civilization that used it to lure their helpful fairies from the deep forests that surrounded their village, with plenty of details about the forest and who live there 2000 years before that.  He wants the damn candy damnit and he'll prove how worthwhile and accurate and important that choice is if it takes him 749028362 pages to do it!

I.  DON'T.  CARE.

As for his "subverting tropes" well you know what?  It's easy to break things, another thing that candy guzzling child would know.  In reality, in many ways, we have Jon as Harry Potter, the similarities are astounding really. There is a reason PTV recaps refer to Bran as a "pensieve"  How subversive!  He made his alive!  Oh and he graphically seems to relish in obscene tortures and flaying and rape!  How wonderful.

As far as my always enjoying Sam's story and thinking it would be important?  That's nothing to do with GRRM being unpredictable or clever, that's to do with the fact that forgotten history seems to be coming right back to smack them all in the face, and that's the dude doing research into that history.  Some character had  to, and yes, again, nothing new in writing a chubby, bookish child who is hated by his wealthy father into a possible hero or important role.  Neville found the Gilly Weed after all.

It's easy to break things, so "smashing tropes" doesn't make me admire this self indulgent sad old man.  I DO just want this story over with, so I stand by "Go HBO!"  I've waded into his disgusting slime long enough, I want there to be a reason I did that, and I really doubt GRRM will ever provide one, because he'll be too busy discovering new candy to eat.   Or new ways to disgustingly torture people, which is apparently the best candy of all to him.

 

4 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Oh I'm sure we, as the readers/viewers will learn Jon's parentage with very little (if any) doubt as to it's validity. I'm a little skeptical as to whether Jon will. I keep coming back to GRRM's claim of a bittersweet ending, something about Jon being close to the throne (perhaps as Lord Commander of a King/Queensguard) but never knowing he should sit it is poignant to me.

Anyway I was questioning the ability to prove it in universe to the realm, and therefore give him a legitimate claim to the throne, which I don't see as possible.

Whether or not common people signed contracts or had something in writing doesn't seem all that relevant.  Kings and future Kings or Queens would  have different standards I think.  Or this particular one specifically if he was so in love with her.  Maybe.  I'm sure in the books it will take masses of pages and other tales simply to discover it if it exists. 

3 hours ago, Athena said:

For me, Book Jaime had one of the best character arc in the books. I became really annoyed or indifferent to most of the characters I previously adored early in the books: Tyrion, Dany, and even Jon at times. However, with Jaime, he went from some two bit incestuous villain to a very nuanced and complex character in the later books. His ordeal and relationship with Brienne launched a great storyline. After he loses his hand, he pushes a lot of people away including Cersei and this is when he starts seeing her for who she is. It does not mean he doesn't love her; he always will, but he begins to see the bigger picture of life in KL. He tries his best to actually be a good guy, but no one listens to him so he goes over to Riverrun which is not my favourite time in his life, but this is where he rejects Cersei's plea for help when she is imprisoned. There's a ton of internal struggle and alienation that happens with Jaime as he changes in the books.

On the show, he's left to propping her up. He's still blindly in love with her and does not see her faults. NCW can act as we saw in S3, but he's not really using many of his skills lately. He's become a bit pathetic if you think about it. I agree that it's much less compelling and I am hoping that with him out of KL, the writing can shift another way for him.

Exactly.  He was fascinating.  GRRM's writing at it's best, all sacrificed for the glory of Lena Headey.  Totally blame HBO for that one, because I honestly don't think it was to condense story or save money.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Umbelina
on isn't one

[benteen]

No, I blame D&D for sacrificing Jaime's character development because they don't like the character and they love Cersei, who is just an misunderstood mom to them who deserves to be angry.  Though I do believe they fell in love with LH like they have fallen in love with the actor who plays Ramsay.

[Tikichick]

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Hell, no, fuck Lady Stoneheart, fuck Catelyn Stark in all shapes and forms. If there is a character I don't want ever around again is her, and I don't care if it derails from the books. Aside being a bitch to Jon, she was an idiot who made some of the supidiest decisions in this show. 

But yes, I think it will break Jon's heart to know he was never Ned's son, the thing he wanted the most, IMO, and it will crush him to know that on top of that he remains a bastard. Assuming this all happens, I would love Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon to say "fuck all that, you will always be a Stark".

And by the way, whatever GGRM has said about Jon not knowing he should sit on the throne, I think it doesn't matter anymore. The show is an entity in itself and there is no way D&D will no have Jon knowing (if R + L = J) that he should/could sit on the throne. He may chose to not sit on it, he may not want it, but you bet he will know.

Funny, I have no fondness for Catelyn either, book or screen.  It just occurred to me that it would be interesting to see them interact with the dynamic that held her so rigidly unaccepting of him in shambles, both having survived horrific attacks on their lives -- and both having lost Ned for good and having to contemplate his failure to share the truth with them despite good reasons for each of them to know.  Personally I think it would fuel Catelyn's resentment further -- that Jon's existence was too precious  to share even with her AND he kept the secret knowing it hurt her badly.   

[Tikichick]

32 minutes ago, benteen said:

No, I blame D&D for sacrificing Jaime's character development because they don't like the character and they love Cersei, who is just an misunderstood mom to them who deserves to be angry.  Though I do believe they fell in love with LH like they have fallen in love with the actor who plays Ramsay.

By the same token I think they also beefed up Tywin's part because they had such a stellar actor in Charles Dance to bring such presence to the screen.  As a book reader only that would annoy me.  Watching the series and seeing the performance I understood it.

[Constantinople]

4 hours ago, Athena said:

For me, Book Jaime had one of the best character arc in the books. I became really annoyed or indifferent to most of the characters I previously adored early in the books: Tyrion, Dany, and even Jon at times. However, with Jaime, he went from some two bit incestuous villain to a very nuanced and complex character in the later books. His ordeal and relationship with Brienne launched a great storyline. After he loses his hand, he pushes a lot of people away including Cersei and this is when he starts seeing her for who she is. It does not mean he doesn't love her; he always will, but he begins to see the bigger picture of life in KL. He tries his best to actually be a good guy, but no one listens to him so he goes over to Riverrun which is not my favourite time in his life, but this is where he rejects Cersei's plea for help when she is imprisoned. There's a ton of internal struggle and alienation that happens with Jaime as he changes in the books.

On the show, he's left to propping her up. He's still blindly in love with her and does not see her faults. NCW can act as we saw in S3, but he's not really using many of his skills lately. He's become a bit pathetic if you think about it. I agree that it's much less compelling and I am hoping that with him out of KL, the writing can shift another way for him.

TV Jaime doesn't bother me because, as far as I can tell to date, Book Jaime's redemption arc consists of

• Not being a total asshole to someone not named Lannister
• Breaking his oath to Catelyn not to fight against the Tullys, which reminds me of the old line
       How can you tell when Jaime is lying when he swears an oath?
       His lips are moving
• Rejecting Cersei for personal reasons, while never disavowing the Lannister regime or any of its innumerable crimes
• Wanting to be high-fived for saving King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion while refusing to accept any of the negative consequences for any of his actions

[Umbelina]

None of that is true of Jamie.

He kept his silence and was a scorned pariah because he killed the king, which is as far from being "high fived" as it's possible to be  He could have easily explained why he did kill him and become a hero, but he didn't.  He didn't reject Cersie for "personal reasons" he was honestly in love with her, unlike Cersie who used him and was a selfish, egotist who maybe, once in a while gave a shit about her children, but mostly what power they would give her.  Jamie sacrificed everything for Cersei, his inheritance, a chance for a real family, all to stay and be with her during the disastrous marriage to Robert, and to protect her in Kings Landing.  Jamie was not a total asshole to anyone without the name Lannister either.  Hello, Brienne?  

Did we read the same books?

[Cyranetta]

Quote

Don't feel bad. Up until I read stillshrimpy's notes on her read through this summer - I thought it was as well. I don't know why, but I did.

Perhaps because she's a GoT Heroine, and as such, ought to have an Item of Power, especially since she lost the first one (Nymeria). I kind of want all the remaining Starks to have a little bit of Valyria (hey, maybe Sansa's super-efficient sewing need is Valyrian stell and will be useful as a weapon later!).

[GrailKing]

18 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

None of that is true of Jamie.

He kept his silence and was a scorned pariah because he killed the king, which is as far from being "high fived" as it's possible to be  He could have easily explained why he did kill him and become a hero, but he didn't.  He didn't reject Cersie for "personal reasons" he was honestly in love with her, unlike Cersie who used him and was a selfish, egotist who maybe, once in a while gave a shit about her children, but mostly what power they would give her.  Jamie sacrificed everything for Cersei, his inheritance, a chance for a real family, all to stay and be with her during the disastrous marriage to Robert, and to protect her in Kings Landing.  Jamie was not a total asshole to anyone without the name Lannister either.  Hello, Brienne?  

Did we read the same books?

Well he 's an idiot for NOT telling the reason, could have saved him and the realm much anguish and there may no longer have been stashes of Wild Fire threatening KL now.

What how quickly Bran is forgotten, and his cousin?  ( I think that was in book)

[Umbelina]

22 minutes ago, GrailKing said:

Well he 's an idiot for NOT telling the reason, could have saved him and the realm much anguish and there may no longer have been stashes of Wild Fire threatening KL now.

What how quickly Bran is forgotten, and his cousin?  ( I think that was in book)

Cersei would have been immediately killed had Bran told.  It's also quite possible their children would have been killed, if that led to questions about their parenthood.  The stakes were rather large, 4 against 1, 3 of those 4 completely innocent.

I don't think Jamie cared about his own life.  Yes, it was horrific, and wrong, no question, which is why it was such an absolute pleasure watching Jamie evolve and find his true, non-Cersei poisoned self emerge in the books.  He never once cheated on her, felt their love was sacred, and when he found out she's been cheating for both fun and profit it crushed him.  His whole life had been given to this woman for nothing.  That's why he left.

Frankly, I had sympathy for Cersei in the books as well, at points, especially her childhood.  I didn't need this propped up version of Cersie to care about what made her the idiotic, vile, selfish bitch she was.

Edited May 31, 2016 by Umbelina

[mac123x]

6 hours ago, polyhymnia said:

didn't think Dickon seemed at all jerky - he seemed to at least want to connect with Sam.

That was my impression too.  he talked about hunting, asked Sam if they hunted much at the Wall, etc.  He wasn't scornful when Sam admitted that they don't hunt much big game ("rabbits mostly.  And squirrels").  I got the impression that he was doing the standard upper-class Brit thing of trying to fill an awkward silence with small talk.

 

Papa Tarley's over the top Wildling hatred just seemed like bigotry, or he was searching for another excuse to crap all over Sam.  I do, however, think Sam and Gilly should have rehearsed her cover story during the 6 episodes it took them to get there.  Something like "I grew up in a small village in the Gift.  When I was 14 I was kidnapped by some raiders and taken north of the Wall.  Sam rescued me and we fell in love and had a baby".

[GreyBunny]

27 minutes ago, mac123x said:

Papa Tarley's over the top Wildling hatred just seemed like bigotry, or he was searching for another excuse to crap all over Sam

This.  Why would Randyll care about wildlings?  He's waaaay down south in the Reach wiping Mace's butt, wildlings are the North's problem, and even then they're only a chronic problem for the Umbers, the Flints, and other far north houses.  I doubt the Manderleys, the Dustins, or the Reeds ever had to deal with them on their own lands that much.

[Constantinople]

2 hours ago, Umbelina said:

None of that is true of Jamie.

He kept his silence and was a scorned pariah because he killed the king, which is as far from being "high fived" as it's possible to be  He could have easily explained why he did kill him and become a hero, but he didn't.  He didn't reject Cersie for "personal reasons" he was honestly in love with her, unlike Cersie who used him and was a selfish, egotist who maybe, once in a while gave a shit about her children, but mostly what power they would give her.  Jamie sacrificed everything for Cersei, his inheritance, a chance for a real family, all to stay and be with her during the disastrous marriage to Robert, and to protect her in Kings Landing.  Jamie was not a total asshole to anyone without the name Lannister either.  Hello, Brienne?  

Did we read the same books?

Maybe.

"Or maybe people just love to overpraise a famous name", Brienne of Tarth, Walk of Punishment, S3E3.

[Minneapple]

6 hours ago, Athena said:

For me, Book Jaime had one of the best character arc in the books. I became really annoyed or indifferent to most of the characters I previously adored early in the books: Tyrion, Dany, and even Jon at times. However, with Jaime, he went from some two bit incestuous villain to a very nuanced and complex character in the later books. His ordeal and relationship with Brienne launched a great storyline. After he loses his hand, he pushes a lot of people away including Cersei and this is when he starts seeing her for who she is. It does not mean he doesn't love her; he always will, but he begins to see the bigger picture of life in KL. He tries his best to actually be a good guy, but no one listens to him so he goes over to Riverrun which is not my favourite time in his life, but this is where he rejects Cersei's plea for help when she is imprisoned. There's a ton of internal struggle and alienation that happens with Jaime as he changes in the books.

On the show, he's left to propping her up. He's still blindly in love with her and does not see her faults. NCW can act as we saw in S3, but he's not really using many of his skills lately. He's become a bit pathetic if you think about it. I agree that it's much less compelling and I am hoping that with him out of KL, the writing can shift another way for him.

Responding in the Television vs. Books thread.

[GrailKing]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

Cersei would have been immediately killed had Bran told.  It's also quite possible their children would have been killed, if that led to questions about their parenthood.  The stakes were rather large, 4 against 1, 3 of those 4 completely innocent.

I don't think Jamie cared about his own life.  Yes, it was horrific, and wrong, no question, which is why it was such an absolute pleasure watching Jamie evolve and find his true, non-Cersei poisoned self emerge in the books.  He never once cheated on her, felt their love was sacred, and when he found out she's been cheating for both fun and profit it crushed him.  His whole life had been given to this woman for nothing.  That's why he left.

Frankly, I had sympathy for Cersei in the books as well, at points, especially her childhood.  I didn't need this propped up version of Cersie to care about what made her the idiotic, vile, selfish bitch she was.

Too bad for Cersei then, they're guest, you have already broken the law of treason, (not to mention guest rights) 3 times, and and survived it, you can't keep it in the pants for a week or two or keep the skirt down; dumb move on both their parts, Bran could have been handled in a better way.

I feel bad for her loveless marriage, I feel bad for 2/3 children but I have little sympathy for her or Jamie as a whole, she's been vindictive and murderous since a child, and he a tool of hers.

Knowing how she treated Tyrion should have been enough to stay away from her.

[Gertrude]

I never really felt sympathy for Cersei. Even as a child she was vile - physically tormenting baby Tyrion and killing her friend for daring to dream of Jaime. Jealous, paranoid and cruel from day 1. So while yes, she does have some valid complaints and hardships in her own life, she never had a healthy mindset to overcome or rise above them. Nothing would have been good enough for her and she is just a profoundly unhappy person.

And yes, Jaime is far from perfect as well. I still love him because he is trying. The scene that puts his whole arc into place for me is the White Book and how he wonders when he became the Smiling Knight. I can give him a lot of slack because he is becoming self-aware and still yearns to be Arthur Dayne, and is taking steps towards that. Baby steps to be sure, but he's trying. Compare Jaime getting his hand chopped off and Cersei being stripped of her dignity and the illusion of perfection during the walk of shame. Both had something taken from them that defined their sense of worth. Jaime used that moment to become a better man. We have yet to see exactly what Cersei will do, but with Gregorstein by her side, I am highly skeptical she will take a similar path.

[lmsweb]

Watching again. I just realized when the Kingsguard came out of the Sept behind Tommen, their armour now has the 7 pointed star on it. That was fast.

[GrailKing]

 

Euron is a sick MudderFooker

think

freefolk

Edited June 1, 2016 by GrailKing

[dizzyd]

Are we going to get a love triangle between Jaime, Brienne and Tormund? I think it would be hilarious.

[Constantinople]

On 5/29/2016 at 10:49 PM, Macbeth said:

Tommen got Jaime to leave the King's Guard.  Jaime  who served 2 psychopaths and a drunk, was fired  by King Tommen, his Royal Highness of Milksop.

Tywin with all of his threats, schemes, and money couldn't do it.  The Hand may be the power behind the throne, but there are times when only the King can get the impossible done. 

I was greatly amused that Tommen fired Jaime on the grounds that "Anyone who attacks the Crown is unfit to serve as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard" in the same episode in which Bran sees Jaime stab Aerys in the back.

[Knuckles]

6 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Anyone who attacks the Crown is unfit to serve as Lord Commander of the Kingsguard"

I am a terrible human being...I was amused because the only man who really has a reason to care that Tommen survive was just fired by said future victim.

Jaime was always arrogant and vile...I do remember that his imprisoned cousin, who admired him so much, was killed by Jaime without a second thought to empower Jaime's own escape effort. Tossing Bran out a window...much the same as Cersei having Robert's bastards murdered by Janos Slynt. Cersei was a killer as a young girl, murdering a childhood friend...neither has ever had a glimmer of concern for the thousands of folks killed or burned out of their villages by the mountain and crew, all instigated by Tywin on behalf of the Lannisters.  So any redemption arc, as delineated in the books, has a fairly narrow range.

Brienne did bring decency to his attention, but in her absence it seems to have eluded Jaime. Cersei never had any decency. 

[Nanrad]

17 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yes, but Viserys suffered the bad effects of that inbreding while Dany got the rewards of being  blood purity with not being insane and not being able to burn.  If that kinslying thing is real, I wonder if the gods "punished" Dany and Drogo by killing Drogo and having Rhageo being still born.

Why did that merchant that set up Drogo and Dany didn't send Viserys to Arianna to marry? House Martell probably could have gotten the guy under control.

In general, I kind of hate how kin killing has been removed as one of the forbidden curses, just like violating the Guest Right. 

None of the Starks were heavily inbred, and by the time they were orphaned, together. I wonder if Viserys resented Dany because their mother died giving birth to her, leaving them both as orphans, plus the really real threat of the Baratheons (probably suffering their own effects of being slightly inbred themselves) trying to kill them, despite having nothing to do with Lyanna and their brother's actions. GRRM really made Viserys unlikable as possible so everyone would be rooting for Drogo to kill him, even though Dany pretty much admitted Viserys and Mirri Maz Duur right about the Dorthaki when she didn't blink when she burned alive those Khals.

They both were inbred, right? Who is to say that being able to control dragons, excuse you from being bat shit crazy. Dany's sanity is even questioned now.

There is no way to excuse Viserys action. He did and said fucked up things to his sister. Joffrey is inbred and he's hated; his siblings are inbred and they are/were decent human beings.

[Ambrosefolly]

9 minutes ago, Nanrad said:

There is no way to excuse Viserys action. He did and said fucked up things to his sister. Joffrey is inbred and he's hated; his siblings are inbred and they are/were decent human beings.

Yes there is an excuse, it is called being inbred. Cersei in her few moments of self honesty had to admit fucking her brother is the main reason that Joffrey was such a jackass and lucked out that Tommen and Marcella turned out to be normal. Some people are born sickly, so people are born simple, and in Viserys and his dad's case, they were born insane. Guy (Joffrey included) should have been in a bug house just like his daddy, but I can find a shred of pity for him. Not asking one to join me.

[Sunnydayman]

48 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yes there is an excuse, it is called being inbred. Cersei in her few moments of self honesty had to admit fucking her brother is the main reason that Joffrey was such a jackass and lucked out that Tommen and Marcella turned out to be normal. Some people are born sickly, so people are born simple, and in Viserys and his dad's case, they were born insane. Guy (Joffrey included) should have been in a bug house just like his daddy, but I can find a shred of pity for him. Not asking one to join me.

Cersei's parents were related but that isn't the reason she is insane.  She was just written that way.  Insanity is something like cancer.  Everyone has the seeds inside but it only manifests in a few of us.

Edited June 1, 2016 by Sunnydayman

[Nanrad]

43 minutes ago, Ambrosefolly said:

Yes there is an excuse, it is called being inbred. Cersei in her few moments of self honesty had to admit fucking her brother is the main reason that Joffrey was such a jackass and lucked out that Tommen and Marcella turned out to be normal. Some people are born sickly, so people are born simple, and in Viserys and his dad's case, they were born insane. Guy (Joffrey included) should have been in a bug house just like his daddy, but I can find a shred of pity for him. Not asking one to join me.

Joffrey was batshit insane because that was how Cersei raised him in addition to being neglected by Robert. It's unfortunate and simply explain, but doesn't excuse his actions. Viserys was inbred, but he seemed more power hungry and unchecked for years, which is why it got progressively worse. 

[Hecate7]

7 hours ago, GrailKing said:

Well he 's an idiot for NOT telling the reason, could have saved him and the realm much anguish and there may no longer have been stashes of Wild Fire threatening KL now.

What how quickly Bran is forgotten, and his cousin?  ( I think that was in book)

He says that he has never been ashamed of his love for Cersei, but that he is ashamed of what he did to Bran over that love. And the cousin is purely an invention of the show. The kingslayer, to his knowledge, is not a kinslayer. Jaime was never an asshole to anyone just because they weren't a Lannister. He disliked Robert Baratheon for obvious reasons. He was snarky with Jon Snow because Jon was getting ready to make the same sort of commitment Jaime made at that age, and Jaime felt deeply betrayed by his own commitment. But he was never brutal, sadistic, or cruel. Moreover, at what point does Jaime ever actually lift a sword against the Tullys? When does he fight them? I thought the whole point was that he bluffed his way through without having to strike a single blow or even "take up arms."

Edited June 1, 2016 by Hecate7

[GrailKing]

6 minutes ago, Hecate7 said:

He says that he has never been ashamed of his love for Cersei, but that he is ashamed of what he did to Bran over that love. And the cousin is purely an invention of the show. The kingslayer, to his knowledge, is not a kinslayer. Jaime was never an asshole to anyone just because they weren't a Lannister. He disliked Robert Baratheon for obvious reasons. He was snarky with Jon Snow because Jon was getting ready to make the same sort of commitment Jaime made at that age, and Jaime felt deeply betrayed by his own commitment. But he was never brutal, sadistic, or cruel. Moreover, at what point does Jaime ever actually lift a sword against the Tullys? When does he fight them? I thought the whole point was that he bluffed his way through without having to strike a single blow or even "take up arms."

I couldn't remember about the cousin part, I do think, he was playing with the oath to Cat with her brother and uncle.

I personally not sure if I buy his redemption arc at least not 100%.

[Gertrude]

3 hours ago, lmsweb said:

Watching again. I just realized when the Kingsguard came out of the Sept behind Tommen, their armour now has the 7 pointed star on it. That was fast.

I know, right? Tommen was totally justified in firing Jaime. Not because he attacked the faith, but because he didn't know what the hell his people were up to. Completely incompetent. Oh well, at least when Tommen dies it won't be another king down on Jaime's watch.

And people talking about being inbred as a reason for insanity - sorta? Inbreeding makes the likelihood of harmful recessive genes getting expressed greater. The Targs have a history that we can say that the tendency towards instability is one of those recessive genes. Not sure that same logic can be applied to the Lannisters. Sure, it's possible, but I think Joff just took after his mother, and his mother encouraged his destructive and cruel behavior. He's a chip off the ol' block, sadly.

[J----av]

13 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Hell, no, fuck Lady Stoneheart, fuck Catelyn Stark in all shapes and forms. If there is a character I don't want ever around again is her, and I don't care if it derails from the books. Aside being a bitch to Jon, she was an idiot who made some of the supidiest decisions in this show. 

But yes, I think it will break Jon's heart to know he was never Ned's son, the thing he wanted the most, IMO, and it will crush him to know that on top of that he remains a bastard. Assuming this all happens, I would love Sansa/Arya/Bran/Rickon to say "fuck all that, you will always be a Stark".

And by the way, whatever GGRM has said about Jon not knowing he should sit on the throne, I think it doesn't matter anymore. The show is an entity in itself and there is no way D&D will no have Jon knowing (if R + L = J) that he should/could sit on the throne. He may chose to not sit on it, he may not want it, but you bet he will know.

Only Arya would ever say that