S06.E06: Blood Of My Blood

[WearyTraveler]

I believe bigamy has been "legal" for the Targs since they first conquered Westeros, although maybe the later kings didn't practice it. I haven't read the World book, so I don't know if it was officially banned by the Westeros authorities by the time our story takes place.

Can anyone who has read the World Book chime in on that?

[plurie]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

What's with this insistence in trying to make bigamy legal despite the fact that it hasn't been legal since the third king? As king of the North with Stark and Targeryan parents, if he chooses, Jon should be able to ascend to the throne. I'm pretty sure the public would willingly ignore the bastard stigma especially with the news of his deeds, and his reported bloodline.

Having some secret marriage ceremony happen just to legitimize Jon would be Soap opera level bad writing.

I don't think so. Why would members of the Kingsguard be protecting Lyanna and the baby if it WASN'T the heir to the throne? And Jon wouldn't be the heir unless he was legitimate.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, Oscirus said:

Jon should be able to ascend to the throne. I'm pretty sure the public would willingly ignore the bastard stigma especially with the news of his deeds, and his reported bloodline.

This pretty much gets to the heart of the matter - the people would accept him. Anyone who is able to get enough support and resources behind him can claim the throne. Bloodlines and inheritance are just a legal fiction - it gives the appearance of a neat, orderly process, but the Throne is always up for grabs if one has enough support. It matters not one iota if Jon is a bastard or not. It matters not one iota if Aegon is real or not. If enough people agree things are cool, things are cool.

[Macbeth]

17 hours ago, Ottis said:

I also didn't understand why that play seemed to be a farce, except for when the actress Arya targeted gave her speech. The play abruptly became serious, then went back to farting and belching. I get that we were supposed to see she was a good actor, however, a truly good actor would act within the confines of the play, not run off an Emmy reel in between fart segments. Another example of "TV writing."

Well to be fair that's the way GOT does it.  Emmy reel scenes in between shots of tits and cocks.

[benteen]

16 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I also kind of chuckle at people being unhappy with Tyrion now that they are beyond the books in his tale.  Would they have preferred an entire season of drunk Tyrion, rowing or asking "Where do whores go?"

While Tyrion's storyline has been sputtering this season, it's still better than an entire season of his endless traveling resulting in him NOT meeting Dany, which likely won't happen for at least a thousand pages in WoW.  Whatever's to come for his this season will be far more interesting than "Where do whores go?"

[Tikichick]

2 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This pretty much gets to the heart of the matter - the people would accept him. Anyone who is able to get enough support and resources behind him can claim the throne. Bloodlines and inheritance are just a legal fiction - it gives the appearance of a neat, orderly process, but the Throne is always up for grabs if one has enough support. It matters not one iota if Jon is a bastard or not. It matters not one iota if Aegon is real or not. If enough people agree things are cool, things are cool.

There can be elements of acceptance that are valuable in making a claim for the throne.  However, all elements of acceptance aren't equal and there are a great many people who have been raised with the idea of their rightful position being one who is ruled by those rightfully imbued with the right to rule.  A great deal of the tradition surrounding the right to rule has been surrounding the idea of being entitled by inheritance.  The other option is battle.  Often the lower levels of society simply accept the idea of inheritance in their own self interests of self preservation to avoid war.

[paigow]

2 hours ago, Tikichick said:

There can be elements of acceptance that are valuable in making a claim for the throne.  However, all elements of acceptance aren't equal...

Renly: People love me, they hate you...

Stannis: HHmmm...Die then...

Edited June 2, 2016 by paigow

[ElleMo]

18 hours ago, J----av said:

Jon was tight with Robb too. I was just saying that Arya was the only one who really thought of him as a Stark equal and continues think of him that way. I can't see Sansa, Bran or Rickon being all "fuck all that, you will always be a Stark"

I think everything that has happened has definitely changed Sansa's mind about Jon.  She apologized to him for the way she treated him.  She feels Winterfell is the right of all the kids, and specifically mentioned  Jon, and she made Jon a cost just like Ned Stark's. I think Sansa considers him a Stark now.

10 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

You are talking season 1 and since then a lot has happened. Season 1 Sansa wouldn't bat an eye at Jon, but season 6 Sansa already acknowledged that he is her brother, her father's son and a Stark. Arya has always seen Jon as her  brother, and it is clear that Bran feels the same. We don't know about Rickon, but then he has barely been on screen.

I suspect if Jon rescues him, Rickon will consider him his brother, especially if Sansa does too.

[Tikichick]

4 minutes ago, paigow said:

Renly: People love me, they hate you...

Stannis: HHmmm...Die then...

Don't forget the context:

King Robert took the throne through battle, but expected it to follow inheritance after him.

King Robert died with 3 legitimate children.  (Tradition of inheritance)

The brothers Barratheon rejected the legitimacy of Robert's children.  (Still tradition of inheritance, with technicality of legitimacy thrown in)

Both brothers made their own bid for the throne, Stannis as elder, Renly as more "camera ready" for the people.  (Tradition of inheritance v. Acceptance claim with inheritance underpinning)

Brothers engage in battle with other claimants for the crown, including each other.

[Ambrosefolly]

8 hours ago, Nanrad said:

No. Just because they have the same parents doesn't necessarily mean that they were treated they same or perceive situations exactly the same. I have a twin. Everything my aunt said and did, she took to heart, where as I kanyeshurgged and went about my day. At the same time, I was more of a go with the flow type person where as she was more vocal about being disinterested in various things. This and other things influenced or relationships and perceptions of my aunt. That's why we can't assume they would've turned out exactly the same. Even then, being raised by the same parents doesn't guarantee similar behaviors or outlooks. Mine are vastly different from my siblings--my twin, who is the person closest to me. 

So, you just proved my point? Joffrey and Viserys were wired differently than their siblings because of the negative effects of the incest that, coupled with their extreme childhoods, caused them cruel and violent. 

[SeanC]

1 hour ago, Tikichick said:

The brothers Barratheon rejected the legitimacy of Robert's children.  (Still tradition of inheritance, with technicality of legitimacy thrown in)

Renly didn't actually challenge the legitimacy of Robert's children (though he knew about it), he just claimed he would be a better king.  Stannis was the one who publicly argued for their illegitimacy.

[Maximum Taco]

15 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

What if High Sparrow choose the Kingslayer as his champion? that be a slap in the sack for the Lannisters.

Trial by combat isn't necessarily to the death.

Jaime would just accept the position as the Sparrow's champion, and then throw the fight before Mountainstein did any serious damage (no doubt Cersei would also tell Mountainstein to not kill Jaime), Jaime might even yield the fight before a blow is dealt.

When you pick a champion you need them to have a stake in the fight.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Maximum Taco]

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I believe bigamy has been "legal" for the Targs since they first conquered Westeros, although maybe the later kings didn't practice it. I haven't read the World book, so I don't know if it was officially banned by the Westeros authorities by the time our story takes place.

Can anyone who has read the World Book chime in on that?

It was never actually banned. Maegor I (the Cruel) was the last Targaryen to actively practice polygamy.

Not sure if World Book stuff counts as spoilers, so just in case spoilers.
 

Spoiler

 

During the reign of his brother Aenys I, Maegor's mother Visenya suggested Maegor should be wed to Aenys' daughter the Princess Rhaena. The High Septon at the time was of a mind that the Targaryens should abandon both the process of polygamy and incest and mounted a protest. In an effort to appease the faith Aenys refused the match and instead forced Maegor to marry the High Septon's neice, the Lady Ceryse Hightower. Ceryse proved to be barren (although it is suggested that in fact Maegor himself was infertile) and in response Maegor took a second wife, the Lady Alys Harroway.

Aenys insisted that Maegor set the Lady Alys aside and return to his previous monogamous marriage (under pressure from the High Septon and the faith), and when Maegor refused Aenys banished him to Pentos. When Aeyns died Maegor claimed the throne and wed 4 more women (Tyana of Pentos, Elinore Costayne, Jeyne Westerling and his original intended Rhaena Targaryen,) all in an effort to produce an heir. An effort that remained unfulfilled. When Maegor died Aenys' son Jaehaerys succeeded him.

Maegor's unpopularity, in addition to the eventual death of the dragons (during the reign of Aegon III) limited the Targaryens' ability and desire to defy convention. Pretty much they decided it was better to not make waves and have the faith as a friend to the crown.

 

[Oscirus]

5 hours ago, plurie said:

I don't think so. Why would members of the Kingsguard be protecting Lyanna and the baby if it WASN'T the heir to the throne? And Jon wouldn't be the heir unless he was legitimate.

They did so because Rhaegar ordered them to do so.

[ElleMo]

7 hours ago, Gertrude said:

This pretty much gets to the heart of the matter - the people would accept him. Anyone who is able to get enough support and resources behind him can claim the throne. Bloodlines and inheritance are just a legal fiction - it gives the appearance of a neat, orderly process, but the Throne is always up for grabs if one has enough support. It matters not one iota if Jon is a bastard or not. It matters not one iota if Aegon is real or not. If enough people agree things are cool, things are cool.

There was a reason that Gentry was whisked out of Kings Landing.  He was a threat to the crown and Lanisters would have killed him.

[Maximum Taco]

13 minutes ago, ElleMo said:

There was a reason that Gentry was whisked out of Kings Landing.  He was a threat to the crown and Lanisters would have killed him.

He was a threat to the crown, but not because they thought anybody would name him King. Gendry isn't fit for the crown, it's pretty obvious. He has no idea how to wage war, or balance a budget, or quell a rebellion, or please the populace. He's a smith.

Nobody is going to name an illiterate smith or a whore's child or a mule minder in the Vale, the King/Queen.

He was a threat to the crown because his very existence (and Barra's, and Mya Stone's, and Edric Storm's) makes a pattern that Robert has the dominant genes, and raises questions about Joff, Myrcella and Tommen's legitimacy, questions that were already being raised by Ned Stark and Stannis. It's harder for them to dismiss them all as suspicious throne seekers, when there's living proof that can be pointed out.

There's a very big difference between bastards like Gendry and Mya and those like Jon and Edric Storm. Jon was brought up in a noble household, just like Robb and Bran and Rickon he was taught how a High Lord runs his house. That's why Stannis has no problem promising him the North and the name of Jon Stark, cause he can do the job. Ditto for Edric, he was brought up at Storm's End as the recognized child of the King, and likely received the same education that any legitimate child of Storm's End would receive. Gendry is a street-rat smith, he knows how to smith.

Edited June 2, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Captain Stable]

3 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

Trial by combat isn't necessarily to the death.

Jaime would just accept the position as the Sparrow's champion, and then throw the fight before Mountainstein did any serious damage (no doubt Cersei would also tell Mountainstein to not kill Jaime), Jaime might even yield the fight before a blow is dealt.

When you pick a champion you need them to have a stake in the fight.

I always thought the champions had to volunteer, or at least engage in the combat of their own free will.
- Tyrion at the Eyrie - Offered money to whoever would step in a fight on his behalf to avoid going through the moon door.

- No one wanted to fight the Mountain when it was announced he was the Crown's champion, until Prince Squishy-Head stepped in.

 

Always made me wonder why Ned never went down the Trial by Combat route...

[Maximum Taco]

7 minutes ago, Captain Stable said:

I always thought the champions had to volunteer, or at least engage in the combat of their own free will.
- Tyrion at the Eyrie - Offered money to whoever would step in a fight on his behalf to avoid going through the moon door.

- No one wanted to fight the Mountain when it was announced he was the Crown's champion, until Prince Squishy-Head stepped in.

 

Always made me wonder why Ned never went down the Trial by Combat route...

They do have to volunteer as well.

But if the High Sparrow asked Jaime, Jaime could accept the request but then just yield the fight immediately. Handing Cersei the win. He has no reason to fight, but he does have a reason to just give up. It hands Cersei the win.
 

Quote

 

High Sparrow: I choose Jaime Lannister as my champion!

Jaime: What?! Oh alright.

----Day of the Fight----

Jaime: I give up. You win Mountain! I guess Cersei was innocent. The gods have taken from me my resolve!

 

Ned didn't go the trial by combat route cause it wasn't worth the risk. If he confessed and surrendered he was promised that he'd get to take the black and that Arya and Sansa would be safe, and returned to Robb, the new Lord of Winterfell. He didn't want to take the risk of losing the trial and then also dooming his daughters.

[hammaboo]

On ‎5‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 10:34 PM, AuntieMame said:

I took it that Arya is waiting in the dark to kill the waif and then make her escape, though it just occurred to me that she could kill Little Miss Sunshine of the Faceless Men and that would buy her way into the assassin's cult on her own terms. Please no.

For some reason I feel like this is a set up by Jaqen for Arya to kill the waif.  She seems to annoy him with her "Arya can't be a Faceless Man bs."

[DigitalCount]

Re: TBC - Ned was also badly injured when he had been arrested, though I can't remember if that's show-only. It wouldn't have made much sense to fight his own trial, and he didn't have anyone left to fight for him.

[WearyTraveler]

38 minutes ago, DigitalCount said:

Re: TBC - Ned was also badly injured when he had been arrested, though I can't remember if that's show-only. It wouldn't have made much sense to fight his own trial, and he didn't have anyone left to fight for him.

In both, book and show, Ned was injured way before he was arrested, even before Robert died. Jaimie and his men attacked Ned and his men because Catelyn had taken Tyrion prisoner, accusing him of attempting to kill Bran by sending an assassin with the fateful Valyrian steel dagger to Bran's room.  Robert even went to Ned's room to visit him after that and restored him as Hand of the King.  Ned had resigned because Robert had approved the order to kill Daenerys in Essos.

After that, Robert went on his hunt and Ned even sat the Iron Throne in his name, while his leg was in a cast.

==================================

Regarding the Baratheon's claim to the throne, Robert rebelled and took it because he had the larger army and support, but let's not forget that once Rhaegar, his heirs, and King Aerys were dead, the Rebellion decided Robert should be King because, as Ned put it, he "had the better claim".  One of Robert's ancestors had been a Targaryen, so, they decided Robert should be King.

Off course, they could have done the right thing, name Viserys King and appoint Robert, Ned or Jon Arryn as Regent.  But that's for another thread :)

Edited June 2, 2016 by WearyTraveler

[Gertrude]

59 minutes ago, WearyTraveler said:

One of Robert's ancestors had been a Targaryen, so, they decided Robert should be King.

Off course, they could have done the right thing, name Viserys King and appoint Robert, Ned or Jon Arryn as Regent.  But that's for another thread :)

 

Weird, right? Almost like rules of inheritance aren't really that important after all. ;)

[rubyred]

1 hour ago, WearyTraveler said:

==================================

Regarding the Baratheon's claim to the throne, Robert rebelled and took it because he had the larger army and support, but let's not forget that once Rhaegar, his heirs, and King Aerys were dead, the Rebellion decided Robert should be King because, as Ned put it, he "had the better claim".  One of Robert's ancestors had been a Targaryen, so, they decided Robert should be King.

Off course, they could have done the right thing, name Viserys King and appoint Robert, Ned or Jon Arryn as Regent.  But that's for another thread :)

Thanks, that has been niggling at me. But I'm not sure if the show has explained where the House of Baratheon is from? Were they a Northern family? And with Stannis gone, is that the end of the (legitimate) house/line?

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, rubyred said:

1. Were they a Northern family?

2. And with Stannis gone, is that the end of the (legitimate) house/line?

1. They're from The Stormlands

2. There might be distant cousins with a claim but they haven't been mentioned in the books (to the best of my memory) but otherwise yes there are no legitimate Baratheon offspring out there.

[Constantinople]

5 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

Regarding the Baratheon's claim to the throne, Robert rebelled and took it because he had the larger army and support, but let's not forget that once Rhaegar, his heirs, and King Aerys were dead, the Rebellion decided Robert should be King because, as Ned put it, he "had the better claim".  One of Robert's ancestors had been a Targaryen, so, they decided Robert should be King.

Off course, they could have done the right thing, name Viserys King and appoint Robert, Ned or Jon Arryn as Regent.  But that's for another thread :)

I think Robert would have been made king even if the Baratheons had no Targaryen blood.

The new king would have to be one of the high lords.  It's difficult enough to have one of your peers elevated over you; it's far worse if someone inferior is jumped over you to the Iron Throne.

The Martells are out because they were on the losing side of the war and I don't think the rest of the 7K would accept a Dornish person as King (or Queen).

The Tyrells are out because they fought on the wrong side.

The Greyjoys are out because, as far as I know, they sat out Robert's Rebellion.  I also think, given a choice, no one would want an Iron Islander on the Iron Throne.

The Lannisters were too Johnny-come-lately in the rebellion and too hated.

Jon Arryn was too old and didn't have a living son at the time.

Hoster Tully had a son, but he was still too old to be the first king of the next dynasty.  Given that the death of a king is a potential crisis, you want the new king to live as long as possible.

Ned was the right age and, if Robb hadn't already been born, he was well along the way.  Still, the Southerners wouldn't permit a Northern King.

That leaves Robert.  He's from a normal part of the 7K.  It's true he didn't have any sons at the time of the rebellion, but he was still young enough, and obviously fertile enough, that he could reasonably be expected to marry and have legitimate children.  In the interim, he had two younger brothers.

[Nanrad]

14 hours ago, Ambrosefolly said:

So, you just proved my point? Joffrey and Viserys were wired differently than their siblings because of the negative effects of the incest that, coupled with their extreme childhoods, caused them cruel and violent. 

How did I prove your point? Even kids who aren't products of incest can turn out to be crappy people with shitty parenting or a bad environment. I mentioned nothing about incest, that was you. Dany was a product of incest who was verbally and emotionally abused by her brothers in some capacity and the only time she truly lashed out was in self defense. She was largely raised by her brother and yet she turned out nothing like him.

[J----av]

On 6/1/2016 at 11:14 PM, Raachel2008 said:

You are talking season 1 and since then a lot has happened. Season 1 Sansa wouldn't bat an eye at Jon, but season 6 Sansa already acknowledged that he is her brother, her father's son and a Stark. Arya has always seen Jon as her  brother, and it is clear that Bran feels the same. We don't know about Rickon, but then he has barely been on screen.

 What has happened that Sansa acknowledged that he is a Stark? Nothing. The show just forced the Sansa/Jon relationship with nothing to explain. The two have never once interacted or talked about each other till they meet this season, but know we are supposed to buy they are tight? And so far in season 6 Sansa has referred to Jon as her half brother and a bastard, NOT a Stark. We can't see inside there heads, but they haven't shown anything that suggests the Stark kids see Jon as a Stark. We know in the books only Arya thinks of him as her real brother, so thats what i am going on

 And how is it clear Bran see's Jon as a Stark? Because they got along? He got along with Robb as good as anyone, but Robb never saw him as a Stark ("farewell Snow")

Edited June 3, 2016 by J----av

[J----av]

9 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

They do have to volunteer as well.

But if the High Sparrow asked Jaime, Jaime could accept the request but then just yield the fight immediately. Handing Cersei the win. He has no reason to fight, but he does have a reason to just give up. It hands Cersei the win.
 

Ned didn't go the trial by combat route cause it wasn't worth the risk. If he confessed and surrendered he was promised that he'd get to take the black and that Arya and Sansa would be safe, and returned to Robb, the new Lord of Winterfell. He didn't want to take the risk of losing the trial and then also dooming his daughters.

 Well with The Hound, The Mountain, two hand Jamie and Sir Barristan Selmy as options, Ned would pretty much have no chance in a trial by combat unless he could get Oberyn some how lol. Still i thought Ned wasn't even on trial? 

[Maximum Taco]

Just now, J----av said:

 Well with The Hound, The Mountain, two hand Jamie and Sir Barristan Selmy as options, Ned would pretty much have no chance in a trial by combat unless he could get Oberyn some how lol. Still i thought Ned wasn't even on trial? 

He wasn't on trial because he confessed. But he would've gotten a trial if he hadn't confessed.

[J----av]

Just now, Maximum Taco said:

He wasn't on trial because he confessed. But he would've gotten a trial if he hadn't confessed.

 Well even still. With The Mountain, Jamie, Barristan and The Hound in Joff's corner, Ned pretty much had no chance in a trial by combat. Trial by combat would be certain death for him. He was injured and starved/dehydrated (and even healthy he's getting his ass kicked by The Mountain, Jamie, Barristan or The Hound) and no one on his side was close to the level of options Joffrey had.

[J----av]

14 hours ago, ElleMo said:

I think everything that has happened has definitely changed Sansa's mind about Jon.  She apologized to him for the way she treated him.  She feels Winterfell is the right of all the kids, and specifically mentioned  Jon, and she made Jon a cost just like Ned Stark's. I think Sansa considers him a Stark now.

I suspect if Jon rescues him, Rickon will consider him his brother, especially if Sansa does too.

 Well they are trying to rally the North. Giving him a Ned type coat helps with that. She still referred to him as a bastard. I'm sure she likes him now or whatever, but so did Robb and we know he never thought of Jon as a Stark

[Maximum Taco]

11 minutes ago, J----av said:

 Well even still. With The Mountain, Jamie, Barristan and The Hound in Joff's corner, Ned pretty much had no chance in a trial by combat. Trial by combat would be certain death for him. He was injured and starved/dehydrated (and even healthy he's getting his ass kicked by The Mountain, Jamie, Barristan or The Hound) and no one on his side was close to the level of options Joffrey had.

 

And he would've had a great chance facing a regular trial presided over by Joffrey and Cersei?

And no chance is a little harsh, even in chains he's still the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. And he's also the son-in-law to the Lord Paramount of the Trident and he's spent a considerable amount of time in the Vale. I'm sure he could find someone to fight for him. Heck Tyrion was in the same position twice and found someone to fight for him, and all he needed to promise was gold, and a chance at revenge.

Also remember that when Ned is in the Black Cells, the Mountain is raiding the Riverlands, Jaime has been captured by Robb. and Barristan had just been dismissed by Joffrey. Even if they summoned the Mountain back, they would have to give Ned the same opportunity to request his chosen champion come to King's Landing.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[Oscirus]

Let's be honest. Robert's grandmother being a Targeryan made his claim look prettier to the common people but it's not like he wouldn't have been king regardless. One of Ned and Robert was always going to be the next king and Ned didn't want it. The iron throne is about more then legacy, it's about who can take it and who can keep it.  This just happened to be the first time that the targeryans managed to go to war with people that weren't targs.

Ned though he was going to take the black, if he would've known that Joff was such an idjit, I don't know if he would've willingly perjured himself the way he did. Hell, he was ready to go to trial  and die before Varys talked him out of it.

[Harald Hardrada]

13 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

It was never actually banned. Maegor I (the Cruel) was the last Targaryen to actively practice polygamy.

Didn't the salt wives practice of the Ironborn also a polygamous marriage or paramour?

[J----av]

34 minutes ago, Maximum Taco said:

 

And he would've had a great chance facing a regular trial presided over by Joffrey and Cersei?

And no chance is a little harsh, even in chains he's still the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. And he's also the son-in-law to the Lord Paramount of the Trident and he's spent a considerable amount of time in the Vale. I'm sure he could find someone to fight for him. Heck Tyrion was in the same position twice and found someone to fight for him, and all he needed to promise was gold, and a chance at revenge.

Also remember that when Ned is in the Black Cells, the Mountain is raiding the Riverlands, Jaime has been captured by Robb. and Barristan had just been dismissed by Joffrey. Even if they summoned the Mountain back, they would have to give Ned the same opportunity to request his chosen champion come to King's Landing.

 So he has to fight the Hound lol. Good luck with that. GRRM has said you could argue The Hound is the best fighter in Westeros. MAYBE he could convince someone like Oberyn (thats one of the few that has a chance VS the Hound), but all the best fighters are already rich or are aligned with the Lannisters and wouldn't want to risk their life for Ned. Even if by some chance he got, lets say Syrio Forel, his daughters would still be at risk IF he won. No one, not even Cersei thought Joff was dumb enough to cut off Neds head.

 Its not like with Tyrion. He wouldn't be fighting old man Vardis or have Oberyn hanging around KL looking for revenge. Also Joffery probably wouldn't even let him do a trial by combat. He didn't even get to talk to anyone till his execution.

 

 And no, he wouldn't have a great chance facing a regular trial presided over by Joffrey and Cersei because they clearly were not going to give him any trial.

Edited June 3, 2016 by J----av

[benteen]

8 hours ago, Maximum Taco said:

 

And he would've had a great chance facing a regular trial presided over by Joffrey and Cersei?

And no chance is a little harsh, even in chains he's still the Lord of Winterfell and Warden of the North. And he's also the son-in-law to the Lord Paramount of the Trident and he's spent a considerable amount of time in the Vale. I'm sure he could find someone to fight for him. Heck Tyrion was in the same position twice and found someone to fight for him, and all he needed to promise was gold, and a chance at revenge.

Also remember that when Ned is in the Black Cells, the Mountain is raiding the Riverlands, Jaime has been captured by Robb. and Barristan had just been dismissed by Joffrey. Even if they summoned the Mountain back, they would have to give Ned the same opportunity to request his chosen champion come to King's Landing.

Ned was only considered an excellent fighter on the show and not in the books, where's he's considered just above average.  Ned likely could have found a champion but you know Ned with his blasted honor (to use a Book Jorah line) never would have done that.  He considered his best bet at that point to cut a deal to protect his family.

[Maximum Taco]

9 hours ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Didn't the salt wives practice of the Ironborn also a polygamous marriage or paramour?

In a form I suppose, the Ironborn have the process of having one "rock wife" and as many "salt wives" as they want (and can take by paying the iron price.) While a salt wife is not officially a whore, or slave, they practically are (they only way in which they differ from slaves is they cannot be bought or sold with gold, only taken by the iron price), and are looked down upon in Ironborn society, and while their sons are free men and can inherit lands from their fathers, they come after all "rock" children.

It wasn't the true polygamy practiced by the Targaryens though, usually their all wives were equal and all children were equal.

9 hours ago, J----av said:

 So he has to fight the Hound lol. Good luck with that. GRRM has said you could argue The Hound is the best fighter in Westeros. MAYBE he could convince someone like Oberyn (thats one of the few that has a chance VS the Hound), but all the best fighters are already rich or are aligned with the Lannisters and wouldn't want to risk their life for Ned. Even if by some chance he got, lets say Syrio Forel, his daughters would still be at risk IF he won. No one, not even Cersei thought Joff was dumb enough to cut off Neds head.

 Its not like with Tyrion. He wouldn't be fighting old man Vardis or have Oberyn hanging around KL looking for revenge. Also Joffery probably wouldn't even let him do a trial by combat. He didn't even get to talk to anyone till his execution.

 

 And no, he wouldn't have a great chance facing a regular trial presided over by Joffrey and Cersei because they clearly were not going to give him any trial.

True, which is what I said in the first place. Ned cut a deal to protect Arya and Sansa and to take the black. It was a good deal, had it been honoured. It simply wasn't worth the risk to lose the trial. But if he hadn't been offered the deal I'm sure he would've proceeded to trial, and I can't be sure he wouldn't have requested Trial by Combat if he got railroaded the way Tyrion did in his second trial.

I think Joff would've definitely given him Trial by Combat, it's an almost holy right and denying Ned that would've alienated the smallfolk, and the Faith from the crown. Trial by Combat has always been an option for everyone and anyone. All he would need to do is demand it loudly and publicly at his execution, and they would've been forced to give it. Also in A Clash of Kings, trial by combat is Joff's favourite way of deciding things. He'd relish the chance to sic his dog on Ned (or his champion).

In any case they certainly would've given Ned a trial if he didn't confess, they wouldn't have the gall to execute a high lord without some kind of indication of guilt. It would've been a kangaroo court, like the one Tyrion got, but it would've been a trial. His admission (or conviction) was what they were after, they needed it to quell the rumours that Joff and his siblings were bastards. If they executed Ned, without a trial, while he was adamantly calling out their bastardy, that would lay credence to Stannis' claims. If he's a confessed or convicted traitor, that detracts from the claims.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Maximum Taco

[stillshimpy]

So I was sort of accidentally spoiled that Benjen was going to show up in this episode and was glad of it.  Sadly, that was the only thing of any interest to happen in the episode, as witnessed by the umpteenth, eleventy-billioneth discussion of "How can we tilt things precisely so, so that Jon can have a legitimate claim to the throne?"  

From my standpoint, sure the story could do it.  It would be a soap opera tactic and harder than hell to prove when the knowledge would primarily come from Bran-o-vision and whatever other heavily contrived thing the story could come up with to decide that Polygamy is totes legal and Ned hid the proof of Jon's legitimacy under a distinct rock, or in a grave, or whatever other really, really heavily contrived thing they could decide upon.  It would be a little bit laughable and truly, pinning giant parts of such a long book series on the actions of characters that don't really appear in the story except for visions inside the house of the Undying, or Bran's tour of shit-that-happened-in-the-past makes me wince a little in terms of the actual craft of plotting, character arcing and, you know, writing.     However, even if it smacks of a novice fan-fiction writer on a Chardonnay bender yodeling, "Eureka!! I've found the way to do this!" there's nothing to say they won't go there.   

I mean, this is the story that just Möbius stripped Dany back to her season one plot, having her essentially morph into Drogo, thereby fulfilling the witch's prophecy, looky-looky-insane-cakes-cookie....Dany got Drogo back by essentially becoming him.  Spiffy, splendid.  Sort of snore. 

So yeah, this particular story may very well have the proof of Jon's parentage of lineage or what-have-you stuffed up the ass of a golden phoenix, to be crapped out at the speed of plot necessity.  

Sorry, but man, what a wheel-spinner this particular episode was.  Great to see Benjen.  He's Coldhands.  Righty-o.  I guess the showrunners just Jeyne Pool'd that whole situation.  "Yeah, but viewers need someone they can recognize..."  Great entrance.  Only interesting thing to happen in the episode. 

Arya's rather long scene of watching a play of shit-we-already-knew really defines how I felt about this episode.  Benjen appeared but I was told that was going to happen last week, so....already knew it.  This was surrounded by stuff that was either re-treading, or sort of frustrating.  

Jaime has to get fired from the Kingsguard and forced from Cersei's side.  Yup.  Kay-o.  The showrunners hate the boogers out of Jaime Lannister's story, apparently, so they have wrought a really uninteresting love story.  I take this as evidence that the Phoenix Crapped Legitimacy of Jon Stark-Targ-Snowflake will soon be visited upon us.    

Edited June 3, 2016 by stillshimpy

[xtwheeler]

On 6/2/2016 at 4:30 AM, Macbeth said:

Well to be fair that's the way GOT does it.  Emmy reel scenes in between shots of tits and cocks.

Turns out I have no idea how to quote what I want to quote, but it was this and the comment to which it was referring about the inappropriateness of the actress playing serious in between fart jokes and levity.  

That approach would be entirely consistent with our own western theater tradition -- perhaps the most famous example is Shakespeare. Even the tragedies have an abundance of fart jokes, dirty talk, etc.  Those parts were written specifically to appeal to the "Groundlings"--the common folk who were an enormous part of the audience.  When Shakespeare wrote "get thee to the nunnery" he wasn't suggesting becoming a novitiate, for example, it was a quip about becoming a prostitute.  There's another line in R&J when a character falls forward and another comments that she will soon be falling backwards --ie being bedded on her wedding night.

Theater has a long and rich history of mixing the high brow with the low brow, and the sacred with the profane, so I thought this was a logical choice in GoT as well.

[Hecate7]

13 hours ago, Nanrad said:

How did I prove your point? Even kids who aren't products of incest can turn out to be crappy people with shitty parenting or a bad environment. I mentioned nothing about incest, that was you. Dany was a product of incest who was verbally and emotionally abused by her brothers in some capacity and the only time she truly lashed out was in self defense. She was largely raised by her brother and yet she turned out nothing like him.

This. Dany, Myrcella, and Tommen are also products of incest, and you don't see them behaving like that. They were also all three abused by their older brothers, yet they're basically nice people. I feel sorry for Viserys--he's not a sociopath, just deranged. Joffrey, however, is simply utterly devoid of any conscience or kind impulses. He actually literally forgot his father had died.

[Gertrude]

2 hours ago, stillshimpy said:

 "How can we tilt things precisely so, so that Jon can have a legitimate claim to the throne?"  

From my standpoint, sure the story could do it.  It would be a soap opera tactic and harder than hell to prove ...

I was one of taking part in this discussion, but that should in no way be considered an endorsement of said idea :p

I don't want Jon on the throne - I think his destiny is a bit more epic and probably more sad than happy. I'm not convinced Dany will sit the throne either. I'd like to see some random forgotten cousin of a Targ or Baratheon be elevated by a council, if anyone sits it anymore at all. It would really drive home the point that the Game of Thrones is a distraction and not important in the big picture.

I think this is one of those big plot points where the show will follow the (future) books. If Jon does become King, I'd have to unwillingly agree that it was probably meant to be from the get-go. I'd just be really pissed until I got to read it because I trust George to write it in a way I'd accept and was earned, I don't trust the show.

Edited June 3, 2016 by Gertrude

[taanja]

On ‎5‎/‎30‎/‎2016 at 8:04 AM, sumiregusa said:

Um hell yes? I couldn't have said it any better. This is my exact level of disgust with the writing on this show. I'll be the crank with you.

Oh? What TV show are you currently writing for? I would love to review your work. Obviously you are much better than the writers at GOT. Right?

[Harald Hardrada]

17 hours ago, MrWhyt said:

1. They're from The Stormlands

2. There might be distant cousins with a claim but they haven't been mentioned in the books (to the best of my memory) but otherwise yes there are no legitimate Baratheon offspring out there.

Everyone forgot about Gendry Waters already? to this day he is still rowing you know... that must been one hell of a bay.

[MrWhyt]

1 hour ago, Harald Hardrada said:

Everyone forgot about Gendry Waters already? to this day he is still rowing you know... that must been one hell of a bay.

he's a bastard, not legitimate Baratheon offspring.

[paigow]

6 minutes ago, MrWhyt said:

he's a bastard, not legitimate Baratheon offspring.

And presumed dead, so he probably joined a friendly band of pirates that needed better weapons and armour...

[GrailKing]

may have rowed all the way to Bravos lol.

[Harald Hardrada]

[Misplaced]

On 6/2/2016 at 0:19 AM, WearyTraveler said:

[snip] However, since she denies killing Robert, there will be a trial by combat for that charge and that charge alone.

Her champion will be Mountainstein, the Sparrow's champion will be....

Could be Lancel, could be Jaime but what if it's [speculation spoiler]

Spoiler

Tommen?  DRAMA! 

Edited June 4, 2016 by Misplaced

[Gertrude]

13 hours ago, taanja said:

Oh? What TV show are you currently writing for? I would love to review your work. Obviously you are much better than the writers at GOT. Right?

So you don't presume to judge anything you aren't an expert at, right?

You don't have to be a writer to know what you like/don't like. You don't even have to know why you have that opinion - you like what you like. I don't cook often, but I know when a restaurant adds too much salt to the soup.

[stillshimpy]

Presumably Gendry rowed all the way to the Dawn Treader, in search of a safer fantasy universe, although I was at least a little surprised when the Brotherhood without Bankroll got name dropped as causing problems.  The show's depiction of the Bannerless Brotherhood was really a pale, wan thing but at least they're out there causing some unseen trouble.  

Quote

Papa Tarley's over the top Wildling hatred just seemed like bigotry, or he was searching for another excuse to crap all over Sam.  I do, however, think Sam and Gilly should have rehearsed her cover story during the 6 episodes it took them to get there.  Something like "I grew up in a small village in the Gift.  When I was 14 I was kidnapped by some raiders and taken north of the Wall.  Sam rescued me and we fell in love and had a baby".

I completely forgot to comment on this, because I found that scene primarily frustrating.  It just employed a writing crutch/trope in which someone, in the course of a very short exchange, will accidentally say something they are not supposed to, and the jig she is up because of it.  Usually it involves the bad guy accidentally saying someone's name.  "When did you say John would be back?"  (person realizes they have never revealed that their bodyguard's name is John! The jig! She is up!) only that scene utilized it in a way that made very little sense to me. 

First of all,  Gilly being unable to keep from saying one of two things she wasn't supposed to ("My baby is actually my sibling, it's complicated.  Anyway, not Sam's kid!"  and anything that would reveal that they were lying about who Gilly was to Sam) was sort of wearying, but I also didn't think that Papa Tarly would give that much of a friggin' hang, or ever consent to sit down to dinner with them in the first place.  Book Sam's pants-pooping terror of his father -- who Martin Spinal Tapped into the most Dastardly Dad just so he could have Sam have those reactions -- is one thing.  Show Sam needing to swing by the homestead in order for his Dad to concisely reveal to the audience "Dude sucks, in case you never got that from Sam's "my dad  threatened to have me killed if I didn't join the watch" made even less sense.  He threatened to have Sam killed.  Let's give him Gilly's baby!  Wuh?  

It was nice to see a location shoot, by the way, but that added to the strange sensation of watching a scene from another show.  Lighting levels were different, the dress seemed like something out of Jane Austen and then also?  Dude, it didn't even look like Autumn there, let alone "Winter is ...." 

Vaguely surreal quality to all of that and then in the space of two minutes Gilly saying precisely what she wasn't supposed to just made it tedious.  

Randall Tarly in the books made so little impression on me that I kept forgetting I'd met him in that scene with Brienne.  At least I'll remember Show Randall, even if I don't quite grasp why it was necessary to do so.  Is it because Sam is now going to desert and the show wanted to give an establishing scene of why that was necessary?   I think Sam's story exists here as an attempt at an emotionally compelling story.  It does just seem to kind of wander in from another genre though, particularly given the lighting, set and "Winter is....standing us up, apparently..." thing.  

Edited June 4, 2016 by stillshimpy