S01.E13: Leviathan

[scarynikki12]

Rip takes the team to London in the year 2166, three months before his family is killed.

 

 

[Tara Ariano]

Quote

Rip takes the team to 2166 London, three months before his family is killed. He believes this is their final opportunity to take out Savage, who is at the height of his power. They discover two key elements to defeating him, one of which is Savage's daughter.

[Gregg247]

I hate this stupid show!  Rip, take your gun and put a bullet in Carter's head.  Then, tell Kendra to finish off Vandal Savage ONCE AND FOR ALL.  This isn't rocket science!!!!!!!

[nksarmi]

That played out better than the spoiler about Kendra and Carter sounded, but only slightly. They've lived 4,000 years - come on Kendra - can we prioritize the people who only seem to get one lifetime on the planet maybe? Or you know prioritize the whole world over a brainwashed Carter? It's not like he's dead! He just isn't the same.

Poor Ray.  Poor Rip. They need to go back in time and pick up Wild West Kendra - betcha she'd kill Savage.

And on that note, can we keep Savage's daughter for next season? I kind of like her.

[AConspiracy]

The big weapon was a Jaeger? And with bad CGI.

[Lantern7]

This show. Vandal Savage still isn't a credible villain, and the show is at a loss as to how to make him look evil. Also, more wibbly-wobbly timey-wimey bullshit to think about . . . like how Carter could reincarnate without Kendra. Or how Carter always looks like Carter. If it turns out Savage modified a solider to look like Carter, I would support Rip and the others smacking Kendra upside the head.

And the daughter isn't Scandal Savage. I can live with that. For Scandal to work, you'd need Bane as a surrogate father with rage issues.

Plus: Ray went macro to defeat Colossal B- . ..  Leviathan. Minus: Jax reduced to cheerleading while Martin was knocked out. Here's hoping for Firestorm fun from here on out.

[Sakura12]

Kendra is so useless. She's going to let the world fall to save a man that can reincarnate! Her entire purpose is really about her stupid love life. I really hope she's gone next season.  

Mick, Snart or Sara should just kill mind warped Carter, problem solved. Then put the mace in Kendra's hand, grab a hold of her arm and smash it on Savages skull. Then they would have just saved the entire world, not one man or one family. I would consider them the real Legends. Team Killer, Klepto,and Pyro

I guess they turned Savage's daughter straight since she kept looking at Snart. 

The robot fight was...a robot fight. I don't care that Ray got dumped, they had the same we can't be together, we will be together thing since they got together. No one cares, show. That wasn't some big reveal. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[cambridgeguy]

Say Kendra, weren't you there when Barry and Oliver helped turn Savage into a pile of ash?  Couldn't you tell Rip about that during the blathering about not being sure where to find Savage?  Timeline contamination doesn't seem to be a concern so maybe that time Savage attacked you and Cisco in Jitters?  Or the time he smashed into Felicity and Oliver's apartment? 

That being said, if the writers want people to like Kendra then they could not have done a worse job.  Spending multiple episodes moping about her love life and then risking the rest of humanity for a dude is horrible. 

[nksarmi]

I say poor Ray not because he got dumped, but because the woman he loves just put all of humanity at risk because of a guy she's had 200 lifetimes with. I mean, what's the guy going to say? "Hey honey bunch, I love you but who really cares if he ever remembers you or his past life? Can we just kill the immortal bad guy please?" I mean there is no good way for him to handle this!

Rip has one person on his ship that can kill Savage for good and she refuses to do it because her "soulmate" is brainwashed.  Seriously, if he slipped her an amnesia pill - I wouldn't blame him.

Lantern 7 - I think they've made it clear that Kendra and Carter always look the same (the actress from a couple of episodes ago is supposed to be Kendra older - not in a different body) and they just said this episode they don't always get to reincarnate at the same time (not that they've done a great job explaining this but I don't think it really matters since VS is supposed to be a one season only villain - which I don't think is a spoiler since it's been mentioned in every news after I've read about the show).

Edited April 29, 2016 by nksarmi

[HunterHunted]

12 minutes ago, Gregg247 said:

I hate this stupid show!  Rip, take your gun and put a bullet in Carter's head.  Then, tell Kendra to finish off Vandal Savage ONCE AND FOR ALL.  This isn't rocket science!!!!!!!

Of course Kendra would prove to be completely worthless. The writers knew that Kendra's choice to protect Carter would be inconceivable and unsupportable, which is why they had Rip, the other single most selfish member of the team, confront her. This isn't even her Carter. This is some future Carter who has had shared lifetimes with a future Kendra. There are 150 years between when her Carter died and this new Carter. The two of them must have met again at least once or twice in the interim. It's not like you can just slot in any old Carter. Would Kendra want to coupled with Carter from 1573? This is just ludicrous. Finally, killing Vandal helps out BILLIONS of people.

I guess I'm fine with the changes to Vandal's daughter, who I'm calling Scandalous Savage, because she seems to work decently well with the team and has good chemistry with Snart. Boy does he ever have a type.

Vandal's grand plan was a giant robot?!? OK. I never thought he was threatening, but this was laughable.

[Sakura12]

You had one job Kendra! One! It's the only reason you are the team. It sure isn't because of your sparkling personality or that you are some great warrior. 

I do love Snart's taste in women. I wish Sara had more screentime with Cassandra to see that. I still love that Sara uses sticks to fight off people with guns. That's a real badass. 

[dkb]

The giant robots fighting reminded me of Power Rangers, and how the show always had two giant bots fighting each other at the end.

Can't believe I was actually somewhat on board the Ray/Kendra ship or that Kendra was growing on me. Ugh, her and Carter live happily ever after away from the rest of the team at the end of the show or just die after killing Savage. 

Ray, you deserve so much better than Kendra. Go Ray!

[KirkB]

Hey Kendra, here's an idea. Smash Savage into a bloody pulp, then scoop up Carter and take him back to the ship, where you have the rest of your life to help him figure out who he is. There was absolutely no reason for her to hesitate there. Killing Savage is literally the reason they are together. For the first time in the show they legitimately had a chance to end him once and for all and she somehow managed to screw it up. Even if killing Savage ends their reincarnations she and Carter could still be together for the rest of their lives if they wanted, after Savage is DEAD!

I like the fact no one even bothered to suggest trading Cassandra for Savage, since I'm pretty sure everyone on the ship (except Cassandra) knew full well he'd never make that deal. Even if Vandal actually cares for his daughter he cares for himself and his grand plans a whole lot more, and since he's immortal he can always have more kids. Come to think of it, he's four thousand something years old, right? No way is she his only spawn.

I knew whatever Savage had stomping around wasn't going to live up to the preview but damn, that was one sad robot. And are you telling me Savage had a giant robot helping him conquer the world and there was no historical record? Thanks for nothing, Gideon. 

Oh, and just to reiterate...damn it Kendra!

Edited April 29, 2016 by KirkB

[benteen]

Yeah, Kendra is an epic fail on this show.  Endless weeks going on and on about her love life and she refuses to kill Savage when she has the chance.  Bah!

Savage is such a bad villain and the show always suffers when he's on screen.  He sounds awful.

The FX on Giant Ray was not good but I admit I liked the giant robot.  A giant robot is perfect for such a silly villain like savage.  Though Ray got to say a Doctor Who line "reverse the polarity."

There was plenty I liked in this episode.  Mick had some great lines and I love how annoyed Stein got at his fingers suggestion.

There

[Sakura12]

I had high hopes for Hawkgirl, but she's just another Laurel. 

They need to stop sticking Sara with her. I'd rather Sara hang out with the boys. Since the female friendship between Kendra and Sara is just them talking about Kendra's love life. She never asks Sara anything about her life. 

[greekmom]

Get rid of Savage, get rid of Kendra and get rid of Carter.  Have Rip hire Cassandra as replacement and they can all go off saving the world. 

Kenda is utterly useless.  Should have killed Savage.  Who cares if he is the only person who remind Carter who he is? They have Gideon who recreated a hand for Snart. Sure she must have something in the computer banks for mind control.

End rant. 

[Lokiberry]

What the actual fuck was that?! Thirteen episodes of the Legends tripping over their own feet and doing nothing to Vandal Savage but telling him who's family to waste in the future, and Kendra finally gets the chance to bash his smirking skull in but won't do it because her boyfriend won't remember her? Who the fuck wrote this, and can I borrow Kendra's gold plated mace while I have a chat with him?

This is truly rage inducing. I haven't been this angry with a character since the Doctor was willing to destroy the entire universe to save Clara the Special Snowflake from dying of her own stupidity. And, in his defense, the show heavily implied that she had driven him so insane by that point that he had to have all memories of her removed so he could function again.

Congratulations, Kendra you just won the title of most incompetent and useless character in the flarrowverse. Enjoy it in good health until hopefully you and hawkboy die in he season finale.

Edited April 29, 2016 by Lokiberry

[Artsda]

That was not a good episode, all it did was push me from being on the fence about Kendra to hating her and wishing she'll end up dead along with Hawkboy (again!). 

She didn't kill him because of memories? Memories somehow is more important that peoples lives? 

[tarotx]

I like some of it but if Kendra is even remotely in next season I'm definitely not watching. Seeing Sara just for a bit talking about Kendra's Love life and a nice few cool moves just won't be worth it. I hate Kendra. 

Snart speaking dialogue was too affected in this episode or maybe they just had him talk a lot so it was a bit too much for me. Cassandra is a gorgeous girl but we really didn't get to see much from her. It was interesting seeing Snart has a type but I wish Snart would have a talked a bit more normal. Or I wish Sara got to talk to Cassandra instead of once again dealing with Kendra's love life. And I don't mean for Sara Cassandra flirting either. I mean in the the counseling type role Sara has been given here and there. I wouldn't have minded Rip being able to persuade Cassandra with talk about having to watch his family die over and over. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by tarotx

[MarkHB]

My impression was that Carter's memories being locked away would mean that he wouldn't have access to them when / if he was reincarnated, hence the REALLY BIG DEAL.

Also, regarding Ray, am I the only one who cheered with "He knocked his block off!"

[Actionmage]

Even watching two nice comedies after this episode can't make me not angry at the writers for how they screwed over Kendra. Yeah, I was open-mouthed at Kendra choosing a guy she already shared 206 lifetimes with over the effing planet! Then I realized that the writers think this is high adventure-y/ heroic choice time. But it's not! I can see where Kendra might hesitate to kill Future!Carter, but to not finish off Savage when he's right there?! She is nowhere as sorry as she thinks. There are three more episodes, so odds are things will get more worse, if that's even grammatical.

Mick? Maybe you need to step in and train Kendra. Not that I don't love the two females of the crew working and bonding, but , as others have said, Kendra had one job. Mick asked her if she was ready and she said she was. Mick doesn't take well to situations that go sideways. Since Mick spent time with the Chronos-folks, maybe he can articulate for the rest what they feel and how she can make up for her hesitation. Who knows, Mick may even have some empathy. It could actually be an awesome scene.

Show? Don't scare me with Martin getting shrapnel like that! I will cut a bitch for Clarissa. Gray needs to make it back alive.

Oh, Jefferson's face when he realized just how many kids were in the camp. Then the same hitting Martin. Those two are wonderful. Love them.

I never envisioned Ray as Shinji Ikari of Neon Genesis Evangelion, but mebbee... ;p  Still the Leviathan seemed more Angel than strictly a robot. Also? For a several milliums old megalomaniac, Savage put the important stuff in the head of said robot? Not in a harder to hit/ more protected area of the body? Then he deserves to lose his toy.  I was actually afraid that the beating Ray got in giant form would overrun his system once he returned to normal. So, I guess I'm okay with that. I don't want Ray to end up on the brink of death, but a) it was his first enlarging of his entire body and b) he was briefly unconscious. Not that there had to be a concussion, but Jax's read-out was all sorts of red-lights and chirpy danger noises.  I did like his "Yay!" at the end; it was very Ray.

[twoods]

Kendra beats out on Barry and Oliver as being the dumbest character on the CW. All those people dying because she couldn't let go of someone who will be reincarnated. 

Loved the chemistry between Snart and Cassandra. More, please.

 

Jax and Ray were nice. Loved Jax getting so excited over the fight.

Edited April 29, 2016 by twoods

[johntfs]

Maybe the team can learn what Vandal did to Hawkdude, go back in time and use it on him, causing him to become obsessed with basket-weaving instead of world conquest.

[MadyGirl1987]

Ugh! I love this show but Kendra reached heights of stupidity I would never have thought possible. She definitely is the stupidest in the Flarrowverse (although I have only watched Arrow when they crossover so maybe someone there gives her a run for her money), and that is saying something in a week where Barry

Spoiler

is planning to have Wells recreate the particle explosion to gain his powers back after giving they up to Zoom and after a whole episode dealing with a person affected by the first one wanting them to cure his rapid aging.

 I really hope that she will get flack from the rest of the team for this.

Other then that, this episode had some great things. Really liked Jax and Stein with the refugees, also loved Snart with Savage's daughter and him showing her the truth.

Edited April 29, 2016 by MadyGirl1987

[futurechemist]

Maybe I missed something, but why was Stein incapacitated for the big fight?  Practically, it was because Firestorm would have overpowered the guards.  But was Martin stabbed or was that a psychological episode?

I'm glad the team finally figured out they don't have to kill Savage and let him reincarnate, they could capture him.  I guess they were saving that brilliant strategy for the series finale, otherwise the show would have ended about 8 episodes ago.  But the memory thing is weak sauce.  Kendra had no memory of being Hawkgirl when she was a barista and she turned out fine.  She could have done the same for Carter.

Serious Power Rangers flashbacks from the giant robot fight.

And I picked up a few subtle Doctor Who references.  "Reverse the polarity" "Time will tell", talking about incarnations.

[Jediknight]

Snart continues to be awesome.  And Savage's daughter definitely had a thing for him, bring her back.

Kendra on the other hand isn't awesome, she's a dumbass.  Take the mace and just bash Savage's skull in, forget about Carter.

[Ariah]

As someone mentioned already - Kendra is trully the Laurel of LoT. 

The thing is, I like the actress, but the material she's given is abysmal. It's like the writers, left with two femala characters in the main cast, just had to make one of those an emotionally compromised whishy-washy pseudo-warrior. "Oh, look! She can fight! But she also has emotions! So many emotions!" Well, emotions didn't stop Sara from being effective. I know all women characters shouldn't be from one mould, but they really learnt nothing from Arrow.

Side question : once Vandal is killed, will the Hawks stop reincarnating? Their rebirth and Vandal's immortality seems to be a package deal. If so, then once Kendra kills Savage, this Carter is the only one she's left with - right? So, why not try to make new memories with him, Kendra? If you're trully destined to be together, the Cosmos will make it happen.

Ugh, I'm really infuriated when popular culture teaches young women that they can forfeit everything for "Twu Luv".

[BkWurm1]

4 hours ago, nksarmi said:

I say poor Ray not because he got dumped, but because the woman he loves just put all of humanity at risk because of a guy she's had 200 lifetimes with. I mean, what's the guy going to say? "Hey honey bunch, I love you but who really cares if he ever remembers you or his past life? Can we just kill the immortal bad guy please?" I mean there is no good way for him to handle this!

Rip has one person on his ship that can kill Savage for good and she refuses to do it because her "soulmate" is brainwashed.  Seriously, if he slipped her an amnesia pill - I wouldn't blame him.

 

I could get behind this.  This would solve all their problems.  She will never know about Carter so no regrets.  Just pop the pill, tell her they managed to capture Savage (and gag him obviously) and she gets to take him out.  Bingo bango boom.  World has been saved. 

3 hours ago, greekmom said:

Get rid of Savage, get rid of Kendra and get rid of Carter.  Have Rip hire Cassandra as replacement and they can all go off saving the world. 

Kenda is utterly useless.  Should have killed Savage.  Who cares if he is the only person who remind Carter who he is? They have Gideon who recreated a hand for Snart. Sure she must have something in the computer banks for mind control.

End rant. 

Exactly!  So what if Carter doesn't know her or love her, she's engaged to Ray.  How about let go of the new Carter who might as well be written off and stick with the man a half hour ago you loved and wanted to marry.  Does she really think Savage would fix Carter and let them live? What is her end game here?  Savage isn't going to help so either she figures it out without him or continues what she was doing and just keeps moving on.  Won't there be other lifetimes?  If there aren't then they need to gives us what is at stake.  As it is, it doesn't feel like anything is at stake other than some guy who only looks like a former love won't love her back.  SO WHAT!!!!

2 hours ago, MarkHB said:

My impression was that Carter's memories being locked away would mean that he wouldn't have access to them when / if he was reincarnated, hence the REALLY BIG DEAL.

Also, regarding Ray, am I the only one who cheered with "He knocked his block off!"

If that was what they tried to get across, they failed miserably.  The show just reminded us that Kendra and Carter keep reincarnating and meeting and falling in love so there has been no suggestion that Savage has been capable of blocking their past lives.  Savage hasn't been shown to have that kind of power.  He says he locked away Carter's mind but why should we think it would affect him in the next life? 

And the bigger question, why should we in the audience care? 

For just a moment I thought the show found a way to make Carter and Kendra interesting, I thought she was going to kill Savage (so much wishful thinking) and then kidnap brainwashed Carter and then her story would be about trying to get through to the man that remains.  Either they are meant to be which means memories or not they would fall in love or their love is nothing more than an echo of that first couple and they've been fools for thinking anything else.  Kendra wanted to choose who she loves but she isn't willing to risk letting Carter doing the same? 

Big effing fail.

I don't hate Kendra but she is useless and they've mangled the character.  She needs to get off the Waverider.  The one person the show needs everyone in the audience to root for I think instead became the one everyone wants to get Laureled. 

At least Ray got to fight a killer robot and we were promised giant killer robots from that sneak peek LoT trailer thing. 

Poor Ray.  You have the worst luck with women. 

Anyone have any idea who the show wants us to root for?  Kendra and Ray or Kendra and Carter.  Right now it really feels like Kendra and Carter.  Both seem like bad ideas to me. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[Starfish35]

This show.  Only three more episodes.  I hope after this we never see or hear about Vandal Savage or soulmates or past lives ever ever ever again.   I can overlook a lot of dumb - I am still watching The Flash after all.  But this Vandal Savage/Hawkpeople storyline has dragged the show down since day one.  Since before day one, actually - it also dragged down this year's annual Flarrow crossover.  

I just want Kendra gone now.  I don't hate her, but I'm so tired of her storyline.  I had high hopes for her before the season started, and I was even one of those that supported her and Ray.  But now I hope she and Carter leave at the end of the season after killing Savage and have their happily ever after far away from this show.  Ray deserves better.

I'm also really tired of all the contrived excuses of why they can't find Savage here or there or why they couldn't have captured and brought him on board a half dozen times before now.  Please be better season two, please be better.

[thuganomics85]

Oh, show.  It's episodes like this were sometimes I just wished you were called "Killer, Klepto, and Pyro."  Because Sara, Snart, and Mick will never not be awesome, and at times, are what keeps me going, especially when you pull crap like this.

So, yeah, Kendra has officially rendered herself useless, because if she never kills Vandal Savage, then what is her purpose?  This was her entire thing, and now she is refusing to do it because Vandal did some kind of magic shit on a future Carter, that prevent him from remembering her, and Kendra is apparently willing to just fuck the rest of the world for her precious Carter.  Lovely.  I always like it when my heroes are just willing to let billions suffer and even die for one person.  Especially when it's a blank of wood like Carter.  As far as I'm concern, whatever Vandal does in these last few episodes will partially be her fault.

I at least hope Ray wakes up and realizes that he deserves better.  Because I think there is no other way to look at it.  Ray is just a replacement guy for Kendra, and will never compete with Carter.  And honestly? Ray deserves better.

No surprise: Vandal Savage continues to be underwhelming.  Even Cassandra has already become a more interesting character then him.  This really has to be one of the biggest character misfires in the entire Berlanti universe.  There is just nothing about him or the actor that makes me believe he could carry this show as the main antagonist.

Having Stein get injured just felt like they were looking for another reason to have one half of Firestorm down, so they don't have to blow their budget on those effects.

At least this episode did involve Ray turning into a giant and taking on a Deceptacon, even if the CGI was pretty bad, and the only witness was Jax acting like he was a trainer in a boxing movie.  They needed to have Snart there delivering perfect color commentary.

If nothing else, one of the biggest offenses of the Kendra stuff continues to be for the show strange need to keep regulated Sara into the "best friend" for Kendra's "protagonist", whose main purpose is suddenly trying to give Kendra advice and/or little pep talks.  Boo, show!  Boo!  What I would give for a version of this show where Nyssa was recruited as well.

Edited April 29, 2016 by thuganomics85

[Starfish35]

Quote

If nothing else, one of the biggest offense of the Kendra stuff continues to be for the show strange need to keep regulated Sara into the "best friend" for Kendra's "protagonist", whose main purpose is suddenly trying to give Kendra advice and/or little pet talks.  Boo, show!  Boo!

I agree with that.  Female friendship is usually one of my favorite things, but this is not working for me.  

[BkWurm1]

Quote

But this Vandal Savage/Hawkpeople storyline has dragged the show down since day one.  Since before day one, actually - it also dragged down this year's annual Flarrow crossover. 

Agreed.  I do like LoT but even though the season is not done, I don't think it's salvageable - the show still can be, but this Vandal Savage/Hawkpeople storyline was a bust as far back as 4-8 of Arrow. Kendra and Carter IMO never sold their epic love to the audience despite how often we saw "proof" telling us, see, look, love!  And Vandal, while I do think he looks the part, hasn't been effectively used.  His best moment was probably in his first introduction on Arrow and since then he's somehow managed to both constantly win and be a far weaker character than he was when he was stepping off that boat in Central City in 2015.

Maybe if they hadn't insisted that only Kendra or Carter could kill him the show still could have worked.  Make the conditions of his death something else entirely. They wrote themselves into a corner since Kendra is supposed to be the big hero and yet she's a character better suited for more limited exposure.  She shouldn't have been the character the show hinges on, not when there are a slew of stronger, more interesting character for them to choose from.  Even Ray has more depth and pathos. 

Kendra was just a barista fresh off the farm.  The show runners made the mistake of mixing up Kendra's reincarnated back stories with current character development.  Everything that they showed in the flashbacks, Kendra may have lived it, but it didn't happen to the Kendra we are watching.  She's only remembering it. That takes away the stakes and puts a detached distance between her and her past.   All her experiences seem like just what they are, brief, surface snapshots of lives that  have little baring on the character we were presently watching. 

Carter died and instead of being tragic, it seemed to open up the possibilities for Kendra to buck destiny, but if we were just going to circle back to Carter, then they told the wrong story.  Sure, still kill him, but they should have kept working on making the audience care that they killed him. 

 Maybe instead of having her have a romance with Ray, they should have been building up Kendra being haunted by the loss of Carter.  Instead of morning him and moving on, they should have had her struggle with her loss more and more.  Show us that once they found each other that Kendra and Carter fell apart when they lost each other.  Show us they NEED each other. If they'd at least shown her pining for Carter then Kendra suddenly willing to risk everything to awaken the mind of the man she loves would make sense. 

Kendra and Ray were a pointless misdirect.  Unless I'm mistaken by what Kendra's "we need to talk" meant for her relationship with Ray, there isn't even a triangle being milked now that Carter is in the picture.  Raya and Kendra's relationship seems to have been pure filler.  Which is more of a huge waste then the time they spent on Ray and Felicity's relationship.  (ok, maybe not MORE - we'll call it a tie).  The show didn't even address the conflict Ray should have been feeling by having his not yet dead fiancé on board. 

Maybe that's meant to be the get out of jail card for the show to so abuse Ray - he breaks up with Kendra, but hey, maybe his fiancé doesn't have to die. (They could fake her death and pop her out of time to preserve the time line cause without her dying Ray never builds the suit.  Of course if Ray never built the suit then Vandal Savage never creates his flying battle drones or The Leviathan.  Hmm, so maybe the past could survive being changed...naw, Oliver needed to borrow that jet to Nanda Parbat)  

Anyway, I digress.  The long and short of it is the show runners trapped themselves in a plot they couldn't even make tweaks to since the fixes they really needed would have meant pretty much dropping the biggest aspects of the plot. 

Arrow IMO gets away with a lot of poor plot because the characters remain compelling.  Legends biggest problem is the plot is weak and sadly the characters most tied to the plot are equally weak.  So the weaknesses of both are starkly exposed.

I really hope they apply what they've learned from this season in next season.  Fingers crossed.      

Edited April 29, 2016 by BkWurm1

[AudienceofOne]

Speechless

[Sakura12]

I've noticed the closer the Flarrowverse shows go to the "Comics" the more I dislike the episode. I enjoy the non comic canon episodes so much more. The "because comics say so" always feels so forced and unnatural to the storyline.  Can't we just think of these show as Earth 587 or something. That way they can tell their own stories and not be stuck forcing because comics in. Although I've noticed from looking around, the because comic people loved this episode. 

I think they are getting their ATOM and Hawkpeople show that the CW turned down. They just pretend to make it an ensemble show.  The CW was right in not picking that show up, it would've failed. The only reason this show is doing remotely decent is because of every other character except ATOM and the Hawkpeople. 

I hope they have a better plan for season 2. I'm really enjoying Team Killer, Klepto and Pryo and would just watch a show about them. Professor Stein can assist them when needed. 

Edited April 29, 2016 by Sakura12

[marketdoctor]

Quote

"Reverse the polarity"

I missed that the first time through, but yes!  (I was too busy thinking "he's going to grow", because that's how Pym Dwarf Starticles work.)

Also, there's a giant robot.  There's a superhero on board (Firestorm) who's too dangerous for most situations.  There's a way this could go.

If you bring Vandal on a ship that can READ MINDS, how hard would it be to find the bit that unlocks Carter?  Or are they saving that for next week?  (He's lived a long time; that might take a while.)

That's on top of the "one job" that others have pointed out about Kendra.  Usually I like it when time travel shows go into the future, but this was an off week.

[benteen]

I don't think anyone can be as stupid as Barry Allen, who was willing to risk the entire universe because of his own selfishness.  But Kendra definitely gives him a run for his money and it's this kind of stupidity that I cannot stand.  The only reason I didn't go completely nuts over it is because they did take Savage into custody (at a time where he has already done most of his damage to the world) but you just know that isn't going to last. 

It's a shame because I like Ciara Renee a lot but this writing and this storyline is just killing her character.  I want this storyline gone and I want Savage gone as well.  The Savage character was badly cast and I can only imagine what a better actor would do with this role.

[Primetimer]

And Kendra's the one on whom the decision rests.

View the full article

[Sakura12]

Yeah, Barry willing to risk erasing his friends and destroying the entire world to save his mommy was much worse than what Kendra did. All of Barry's friends agreeing to do that to save Barry's mommy also made that worse. Then he got rewarded for it. Kendra was an idiot but at least they did take Savage captive and his daughter is helping the resistance. Both were stupid and selfish.

[nksarmi]

I too feel bad for the actress because it's not her fault that this Kendra/Hawkgirl just sucks.

When they announced the show - Hawkgirl was the top of my female superhero wish list. When they said we would get her, I might have done a little happy dance. I had visions of the badass cartoon/comic book character kicking butt with the badass I know Sara to be - and well crap, that is just not what we got.

However, I didn't let that stop me from enjoying her character as she was introduced on Flash and early on in this show. Sure, she wasn't what I wanted or expected from Hawkgirl but I thought perhaps they planned to evolve her into that with Sara as her mentor. Ok, I would take it.

I never bought into the Kendra/Carter dynamic, but I didn't mind her love story with Ray. BR is adorable at times and he played well off Ciara. But that focus should have ended with her telling him she was happy to get to choose who she loved. This Carter/Ray debate in her head should have never happened as far as I'm concerned. And it's sad that it's been the defining trait of a badass comic character who the cartoon allowed to love someone other than Hawkman (or at least it was pretty heavily implied she had a thing for John Stewart's Green Lantern in the Justice League cartoon I watched with my kids - of course that was the alien Hawkgirl and not the reincarnated one but whatever - it's still been done before!).

But I think my biggest problem is that the show has not made the argument that everyone reincarnates. It seems that Carter and Kendra are special because of the meteor. So in a show where most people only get one lifetime on the planet and Savage is killing millions and making millions more suffer - she won't end his reign of terror because of Carter? A man she has spent 200 lifetimes with, married repeatedly, and had at least one child with? She can't give a few other people a shot at the kind of happiness she has had on more than one occasion?

And let's not forget that she a) didn't want Carter - she supposedly chose Ray and b) Carter wouldn't die without VS - he just wouldn't get his memories back. So my response is who the hell cares? Bash his brains in!

I mean come on Kendra! Let go of your soul mate and save the freaking world! I don't give two cents if Carter and Kendra never reincarnate again - if Carter never remembers her of his previous lifetimes. None of that is good enough reason for her not to save the world.

I won't hold it against the show for ruining Hawkgirl for me if they just go ahead and give her a hero's death in the finale. Next season, bring back Savage's daughter. She was fun.

[darkestboy]

This episode was such a disappointment. Kendra is finally given the perfect opportunity to take out Savage once and for all, then the writers have her chicken out by pulling one of the most contrived plots going? I'd say welcome back Carter but I'm really not sure I'd mean it. Poor Ray though.

Savage might be a charisma free villain but his daughter certainly wasn't. I liked Cassandra's scenes with Snart and I'm kind of hoping that we get to see her again.

Nice team up with Ray and Jax in this episode. Also liked Mick and Kendra's interactions too. Sara was a bit underused again though. Was worried about Stein in this one too.

Savage taunting Rip at the end was decent but overall, very disappointed with this one, 6/10

[squidprincess]

I feel a bit guilty for my own double standard here.  I don't generally agree with the folk who call Rip selfish.  I don't think trying to save your family (and the world) is selfish.  It's the whole reason the team is together to begin with, after all.  And while he's willing to take a lot of risks, and risk the team, to save them, he's also proven willing to risk himself/his goal to save the team.  And I thought what he told Ray, about repeatedly trying to save them and failing over and over again, explains a lot of his rougher edges.  I think anyone would be a bit unhinged after that.  

I don't have as much sympathy for Kendra though.  And I feel bad about that.  It may just be that Carter's situation feels to me like a temporary predicament at best.  He should reincarnate again, after all.  Whereas Savage's death here would save a whole lot of lives (not just Rip's family.)  I did like that Rip's reaction seemed more despair than anger at her, because otherwise, the hypocrisy would be pretty undeniable.

[tarotx]

Ugg at last night. It was my least favorite episode since returning from the mini break. I hate Savage and not the way a villain is supposed to be hated. I HATE Kendra and Carter with a fiery passion. I also thought they gave Snart too much dialogue with his affected talking style and it got annoying for me. He did have nice Chemistry with Cassandra. He has chemistry with everybody.

And TPTB I would rather have no Sara than have her egg on Kendra in her romance drama fest. That was just nasty. Sara's better than that. 

The Robot fight was cool but I don't geek out at robot suit fighting. I'm not an Iron man fan because of the action. Plus I'm on team Cap ;) I did like the little Ray and Stein scene talking/discovering the caters were giant foot prints. And I loved the Ray and Jax scene getting ready for the fight. Also Stein and Jax with the refugees was well done. As well as Rip talking about having to watch his family die over and over and over was interesting. I think I would rather have saw some of it though.

I don't want Cassandra Savage on next season. At least not as a regular. I don't want any more Savage. Or the Hawks. It's bad enough fearing Ray will be dealing with losing Kendra >.<  My hatred for the Hawks and Savage know no bounds. If the Hawks are on season 2 I will have to give up the show. At least watching during the season. I'll probably watch the whole season later if Sara is still on

Edited April 29, 2016 by tarotx

[Sakura12]

I posted an interview with one  of the writers in the media thread. She said they thought they were putting little hints about Kendra/Carter instead of the sledgehammering Kendra/Carter into us. Which ruined anything they did with Ray/Kendra. She said they learned from that mistake. I wish they had asked her about Kendra's selfish decision to save on man over the entire world. Especially one man that reincarnates. You have a time machine! Kill that one and go back in time and pick him up before Savage gets to him. Which is something she could've done at any time for any of the Carter reincarnations. Or you know, kill herself and be with him again. 

Kendra had one job and couldn't do it. All of these people are risking their lives to save the world and she was given the chance to end it and she choose her stupid love life over her team and the whole world. Maybe Snart should've taken Kendra with him when showing Cassandra what the world was reduced too because of Savage. All of those people lost loved ones that they will never get them back and didn't get to spend lifetimes with. 

[diebartdie]

OK so that happened. Here's something Im not clear on.....In past episodes, we've seen VS get (temporarily) killed. In this episode, when Rip realized Kendra was wimping out, why didnt he put a bullet in VS's brain? Wouldnt that have stopped VS from killing Rip's family? The other side of that....if time always wants to happen (or however they keep phrasing it), I bet you anything that even if Rip manages to stop VS permanently, Rip's wife and son will be run over by a bus or something, time wants to gobble them up no matter what.

Anyway, that shit with Kendra pissed me off just like it pissed most everyone else off. The Hawkboy this show has given us (well maybe just the shitty actor) isnt worth the other billions of people.

[Delphi]

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I guess they turned Savage's daughter straight since she kept looking at Snart. 

 

This daughter was Kassandra Sage,  not Scandal Savage.   So they didn't really turn her straight.   They just used a less interesting character. 

 

13 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

[The Real Chon]

All the Rock 'Em Sock 'Em Robots in all the worlds couldn't save us from the Kendra Telenovela sappiness. Le sigh.

[Sakura12]

Yeah, I watched an interview where they said they couldn't use Scandal because they were turning her good in the end or something. I should know that they have to use obscure characters because DC has no idea what they are doing with their live action verse. 

[squidprincess]

Thinking about it, I think I'm less annoyed at Kendra than I was.  I mean, yeah, I still think not killing Vandal was kind of stupid.  But it's not like she just let him go.  They've got him locked up now, and depending on what they decide to do with him, he could be neutralized.

I mean, obviously he won't be, but the characters don't necessarily realize that.

It's not like she can't kill him later, when they've had a chance to figure out what Savage did to Carter.

[jmonique]

Well, I partially blame the actress because Ciara just simply isn't capable or compelling enough to make me care for Kendra. Grant Gustin can rise above Barry Allen's infinite stupid plans to make me keep watching. Kendra just needs to get sucked out into deep, deep space about 1,000 years from now.

I just don't understand how this show can have Carter come off like a creepy-ass stalker until he's killed, upon which time Kendra starts crying and moping about how she JUST remembered she loved him, and now make me give two craps that she almost killed his lookalike hundreds of years from now. I didn't care about Carter when he got Coulsoned off to make the team come together, and I especially don't care about him now. I didn't care about them as a couple, other than wondering how two blocks of wood can combine to make watching paint dry seem more interesting.

If everybody just accepts that Kendra has pissed away their entire mission to help what's essentially a stranger regain 3,000-year-old memories, I just don't even know what to say.

[Cekrypton1]

Ah ha ha ha, this fucking show. So they have a time machine, go all over the place, but only needed to go 3 days before the death of Rip's family? And hey writers, is Rip so dedicated that he goes against all he knows to save his family, or is he a man who gives up immediately after a defeat? Because he can't be both.