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The Duggars: In the Media and TLC

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On 7/13/2019 at 11:16 AM, BitterApple said:

I agree. I think I'm one of the few who thought that police report should never have been released, redacted or not. 

I’ve always felt the same - it was still a report about a then-minor perpetrator, which has a different public interest standard. Where the perpetrator was concerned, my outrage on that front was at least mitigated because of what *Josh* was hypocritically doing as an adult, but I  think a minor’s records being released to the public or tabloids is pretty dicey, and had charges actually been filed, those records would have been sealed due to his minor status.

23 hours ago, Oldernowiser said:

For me, it comes down to the family suing others for accidentally violating the girls’ privacy while simultaneously and deliberately exploiting them for decades.

They don’t get both.

Well, yeah, they do. Because everything about this harmed the victims, not JB&M. It’s not about JB&M and what they deserved or had coming. None of that trumps the interests and legal protections of minor victims.

21 hours ago, lascuba said:

Even trying to put my contempt for that family aside, would the redactions be considered insufficient if the Duggars weren't celebrities? If someone had submitted an FOIA request about a random family with similar redaction, the public wouldn't have been able to guess who the victims were. I can't blame someone for just following procedure without considering that someone's fame might make it impossible to effectively redact. 

I think they would have been. I’m an only child; if my victim statement is linked to my parents names and/or address, boom, that’s me, even with my own age redacted. Same with a smaller family with just a few female offspring. If they weren’t a public family, everyone in NW Arkansas and their broader Gothard orbit would have still *easily* deduced that all but one of the five oldest girls were part of that file (adding Jana to the directly harmed, in a way), though not having it be solid exactly who matched with what still would have been an improvement.

When in doubt and without the time (under the law) to get legal advice, over-redact and let that get sorted out later. Victims, minor or otherwise, should have their names, parents’ names, address, DOB, ages, and all other identifying ages redacted. I don’t feel like that’s rocket science for the release of public abuse/family services records. I’ll easily grant that those who screwed up the redactions and release may very well have been acting in good faith, but I’d be suing in their place over that release and redaction job and I’m not a public or known figure. If it’s wrong if it’s me, it’s wrong if it’s them.

18 hours ago, sleepysuzy said:

I don't think the parents being hypocrites precludes the daughters from getting restitution for an invasion of privacy. No matter how Jim and Michelle may have misrepresented the family on the show and in other public venues, the legal rights of rhe girls does not change. It smacks of victim blaming to me, especially since they were children at the time and its really their parents who made all of yhe hypocritical decisions. 

Joy was 5 when she was molested, and still a minor when it came out. The fact that no one - her parents or those who fulfilled the FOIA request or the media - protected her is reprehensible. Her older sisters may have been adults when the information came out,  but they still are innocent victims of childhood sexual abuse,  no matter how much anyone hates the family, religion, or show. Protection of minors and sex abuse victims trumps sticking it to Jim, Michelle, and Gothardism in my book.

ITA. Exactly.

And I think our legal system - which (in theory, anyway) says it’s better for guilty individuals to go free rather than one innocent individual to be wrongly punished - reflects the same.

13 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

And really, it is only morally wrong to out victims of sexual assault,  and not the molester.  I don't think there was any way for the info about Josh to become public without exposing his sisters in the process.  The document could have been redacted better, but we would all know at least one Duggar girl was involved.   If JB and Michelle never wanted this story to come to light, they should never have allowed TV cameras into their home.  

Agreed re the last sentence, but even if it weren’t murky to out the perpetrator because he was a minor at the time, which it is, it’s still morally wrong to “out” the victims. If that’s required to out the perpetrator, then tough; they win.

15 hours ago, lascuba said:

That sums up one of my issues with the lawsuit...they're going after individuals who were, to their knowledge, following the letter of the law. And this brings me to a question...which law was violated/should be changed? And that's a serious question. IIRC, the reason the police records hadn't been sealed initially was because the investigation didn't lead to any charges, so this specific case seems to fall in this legal grey area that no one predicted. Redacted documents were legally allowed to be released, and the only reason that redaction was ineffective was because the Duggars are famous enough that many people could easily guess which daughters were abused. So...do we need a law that force officials to be aware of the levels of fame of people involved in FIOA requests? Should there be a law that says that any records detailing the sexual abuse of minors should be sealed, period? Because that one seems like a great way to protect predators. 

The level of victim section redaction was grossly insufficient for non-public figures as well. Name, parent names, addresses, DOB, address, etc ALL should have been redacted. I, or other only-female children, are also very easily identified by the mention of “victim’s skirt” when my address and/or parents’ names are listed. Redact all identifying victim information, period.

4 hours ago, kokapetl said:

I think that if the documents can’t be sufficiently redacted to not identify the victims, the documents should not have been released. 

Totally agreed.

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3 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

I am of two minds about this.  I agree the daughters SHOULD have been protected. However, I do feel that any young woman who was in the vicinity of Josh Duggar had a right to know his history.  He was NOT a safe individual to be around.  If I were a parent and he had access to my child I would be FURIOUS to not be told this information.  Take all the chances you want with your own kids but you do not have the right to put others in danger.

Especially considering one of his victims was, in fact, outside the family. 😞

Edited by Zella
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1 minute ago, Zella said:

Especially considering one of his victims was, in fact, outside the family. 😞

AND, how is anyone to know if there were others?  They let a known threat around young girls.  That is a total shit maneuver and makes them almost an accessory.  There were instances after the initial discovery.  THAT is on JB/M.

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4 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

AND, how is anyone to know if there were others?  They let a known threat around young girls.  That is a total shit maneuver and makes them almost an accessory.  There were instances after the initial discovery.  THAT is on JB/M.

Agreed. I was alarmed at how much his behavior escalated. He started going after younger victims and became much more blatant about it. 😞

Edited by Zella
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On 7/14/2019 at 7:54 AM, GeeGolly said:

I respectfully disagree. No one should have to hide away because they were molested. And being on TV doesn't give others the right to protected information.

I also don't agree that JB & M tried to hide a secret. It's nobody's business, outside of the authorities, that their son molested four of their daughters.

It's nobody's business if a closeted gay man is secretly having sex with men, but if he's routinely making it his platform to deny rights to LGBTQ individuals, I can't see the moral issue with outing him.

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On 7/15/2019 at 6:46 PM, Natalie68 said:

I am of two minds about this.  I agree the daughters SHOULD have been protected. However, I do feel that any young woman who was in the vicinity of Josh Duggar had a right to know his history.  He was NOT a safe individual to be around.  If I were a parent and he had access to my child I would be FURIOUS to not be told this information.  Take all the chances you want with your own kids but you do not have the right to put others in danger.

This always makes me think about Amy she is one person who should’ve been told about Josh, that her family never thought they had to tell her really disturbs me. I mean not even grandma thought she should know? Did Amy’s mom know? I know she was a kid but isn’t she a few years older than Josh? if Josh started molesting his sisters at 14 she was at least 16 or older (I’m guessing),Anyway I think 16 is old enough to know about Josh and to be on her guard around him. I think that’s the real reason Amy couldn’t just come around whenever she wanted too, JB & M always wanted to be there when she was around (not necessarily because they thought she was a bad influence) but because someone had to watch Josh around her and any females. 

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11 minutes ago, Puffin said:

This always makes me think about Amy she is one person who should’ve been told about Josh, that her family never thought they had to tell her really disturbs me. I mean not even grandma thought she should know? Did Amy’s mom know? I know she was a kid but isn’t she a few years older than Josh? if Josh started molesting his sisters at 14 she was at least 16 or older (I’m guessing),Anyway I think 16 is old enough to know about Josh and to be on her guard around him. I think that’s the real reason Amy couldn’t just come around whenever she wanted too, JB & M always wanted to be there when she was around (not necessarily because they thought she was a bad influence) but because someone had to watch Josh around her and any females. 

That's a good observation, but I doubt that Josh would have tried anything with Amy, even if he had been given the opportunity. She was never as passive and vulnerable as his sisters (no Gothard brainwashing) and I could seen him always being a little afraid of her.

Edited by Albanyguy
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12 hours ago, Puffin said:

This always makes me think about Amy she is one person who should’ve been told about Josh, that her family never thought they had to tell her really disturbs me. I mean not even grandma thought she should know? Did Amy’s mom know? I know she was a kid but isn’t she a few years older than Josh? if Josh started molesting his sisters at 14 she was at least 16 or older (I’m guessing),Anyway I think 16 is old enough to know about Josh and to be on her guard around him. I think that’s the real reason Amy couldn’t just come around whenever she wanted too, JB & M always wanted to be there when she was around (not necessarily because they thought she was a bad influence) but because someone had to watch Josh around her and any females. 

Amy would have also been a good person to keep her eyes out for how he was treating his sisters and others.  She also deserved to be safe.  He is so smug and entitled I would bet my years salary there are others.  I mean jeez, you let someone know if your dog is a biter so of course you need to let others know your child has acted inappropriately around young girls.

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15 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

Amy would have also been a good person to keep her eyes out for how he was treating his sisters and others.  She also deserved to be safe.  He is so smug and entitled I would bet my years salary there are others.  I mean jeez, you let someone know if your dog is a biter so of course you need to let others know your child has acted inappropriately around young girls.

I agree, Amy would probably not have been a target for Josh; she was older and has a pretty strong personality; Josh wanted vulnerable victims, hence the molestation of his sleeping sisters and a 5 year old.  However, Amy should've at the very least been warned to keep an eye on Josh and to report any inappropriate behavior immediately.  16 years old is plenty old enough to help protect any younger kids who might be around.  And, even though she seems pretty assertive, at 16, Amy might've been likely to dismiss or ignore any misbehavior on Josh's part if she didn't know the history.

I also have absolutely no doubt that there are others and also steadfastly believe that it was virtually impossible that the older daughters slept through the molestation and had no idea what had happened.  They may have pretended to be asleep, but there's no way they stayed asleep while he fondled them.

Edited by doodlebug
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I've always thought that Josh likely molested Jana more fully than he did any of the others. It doesn't make sense that he would have gone after a 5 year old and not the most "womanly" of his sisters. I've speculated that it's why they've kept Jana from courting is because they consider her damaged. It would also explain JD's overwhelming anger at Josh when it was all going down and his absolute distance from him now. You NEVER see Josh and JD together really and that's strange for the two eldest boys of a family like they have to never interact. 

I hope for Jana's sake that it didn't happen, but with this family...

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31 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

of course you need to let others know your child has acted inappropriately around young girls.

Why do you think to let other familys know? According to the Shithole Clown Car it happens in all families so we should expect something. 

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2 minutes ago, Tasya said:

I've always thought that Josh likely molested Jana more fully than he did any of the others. It doesn't make sense that he would have gone after a 5 year old and not the most "womanly" of his sisters. I've speculated that it's why they've kept Jana from courting is because they consider her damaged. It would also explain JD's overwhelming anger at Josh when it was all going down and his absolute distance from him now. You NEVER see Josh and JD together really and that's strange for the two eldest boys of a family like they have to never interact. 

I hope for Jana's sake that it didn't happen, but with this family...

JD was angry at Josh over Ashley Madison, not the sex abuse, which he had known about for years and hadn't stopped him from wanting to be just like Josh.

Considering everything else they detailed to police, I don't think they'd keep Jana's abuse secret.

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6 minutes ago, Tasya said:

I've always thought that Josh likely molested Jana more fully than he did any of the others. It doesn't make sense that he would have gone after a 5 year old and not the most "womanly" of his sisters. I've speculated that it's why they've kept Jana from courting is because they consider her damaged. It would also explain JD's overwhelming anger at Josh when it was all going down and his absolute distance from him now. You NEVER see Josh and JD together really and that's strange for the two eldest boys of a family like they have to never interact. 

I hope for Jana's sake that it didn't happen, but with this family...

I don’t think Josh touched Jana. He’s a coward- they only go after the weakest people they can. This was not about hormones and close in age siblings violating social boundaries- Josh was a predator. As an authority figure in the household (as the eldest girl), I think she would’ve broken his hand. 

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I don't think that he  molested Jana because she would of told someone. 

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I've always suspected Jana may have been the victim of abuse, not necessarily by Josh, but by someone in the Gothard cult. When you consider the number of Duggar associates accused of improper behavior (Bill Gothard, Tim Robertson, Caleb Williams, Mike Schadt, etc.) It's not outside the realm of possibility. I hope it isn't the case, but it's a gut feeling. 

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I wonder who else was wake in those bedrooms, potentially witnessing abuse. That's a trauma in itself.

Edited by JoanArc
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I'm thinking Deanna knew about Josh. She probably didn't allow Amy in the home without JB & M present. I also don't think Josh would have attempted to touch Amy.

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When did Grandma move in? Maybe laundry wasn't the only reason. Maybe she was Josh's keeper.

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6 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

I'm thinking Deanna knew about Josh. She probably didn't allow Amy in the home without JB & M present. I also don't think Josh would have attempted to touch Amy.

I can see this. 

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1 minute ago, GeeGolly said:

When did Grandma move in? Maybe laundry wasn't the only reason. Maybe she was Josh's keeper.

She didn't move in until long after the TTH was built--the abuse had allegedly stopped by then.

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On 7/17/2019 at 12:59 PM, BitterApple said:

I've always suspected Jana may have been the victim of abuse, not necessarily by Josh, but by someone in the Gothard cult. When you consider the number of Duggar associates accused of improper behavior (Bill Gothard, Tim Robertson, Caleb Williams, Mike Schadt, etc.) It's not outside the realm of possibility. I hope it isn't the case, but it's a gut feeling. 

I've always had the feeling that she or someone she was close to was abused by Gothard. I've used that feeling as a basis for her not marrying young and for her going so often as a leader (or counselor or whatever they're called) to Journey for the Heart, hoping to protect the girls. 

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I read the new season of Counting On is starting in October.  

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Ooo, can't make it.  I have a gynecologist appointment, dentist appointment, and jury duty that day.  Oh, and I need the tires rotated on my 10-wheel RV.

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Oh, man, if I hadn't given up cable I would totally put that on my calendar in red. *Sigh* I'm so disappointed...

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17 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I read the new season of Counting On is starting in October.  

Maybe it'll be on Halloween. 

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4 minutes ago, babyhouseman said:

Maybe it'll be on Halloween. 

They're certainly spooky.

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I guess I'll have to take one for the team and watch. I've wasted my time on less.

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I will be watching an important documentary on uses of the chisel. If we had a cat I’d be waxing it. 

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1 hour ago, GeeGolly said:

I guess I'll have to take one for the team and watch. I've wasted my time on less.

Oh dear God...there’s less?

😳

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4 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

WWT and her parasites.

Um...(small embarrassed voice) I don’t know what that is and I’m still screaming inside after some of the things that showed up on Urban Dictionary when I looked up ”BEC” because someone said that here. 😥

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1 minute ago, Oldernowiser said:

Um...(small embarrassed voice) I don’t know what that is and I’m still screaming inside after some of the things that showed up on Urban Dictionary when I looked up ”BEC” because someone said that here. 😥

Whitney Way Thor on " My Big Fat Fabulous Life". I am somewhat sad that I know right away what she was talking about.

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Although now that I think of it the show Smothered would be worse , I do not know from personal experience because that is one show that gave me the shudders just watching the commercial.

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39 minutes ago, fonfereksglen said:

WWT and her parasites.

I much prefer Whit's 'parking lot time' to watching Jessa lie on the couch!

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3 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

I guess I'll have to take one for the team and watch. I've wasted my time on less.

Make sure it doesn't count for the ratings.

And wash it down with a bottle of wine.

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On 7/13/2019 at 4:01 AM, GeeGolly said:

I'm actually one of the few posters behind this lawsuit. 

I've always felt the same as you about it, Kitten. Don't you remember? My impassioned posting about the subject inspired you to say this:

On 5/22/2017 at 7:24 PM, GeeGolly said:

Marry me?

Accepting your proposal was the best choice I ever made ... even better than giving up my dream of being a missionary so I could become an internet influencer for Jesus, spreading hate and intolerance like wildflower seeds across the web. Marrying you was smarter than deciding to go to law school, then flunking out abandoning that when The Lord laid it on my heart that my true calling is to be a professional "don't let this happen to you/"before picture" cosmetic dentistry model. 

You've supported me through it all because I refuse to work a paying job and I just want to say Happy Second Anniversary, my love!

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5 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I've always felt the same as you about it, Kitten. Don't you remember? My impassioned posting about the subject inspired you to say this:

Accepting your proposal was the best choice I ever made ... even better than giving up my dream of being a missionary so I could become an internet influencer for Jesus, spreading hate and intolerance like wildflower seeds across the web. Marrying you was smarter than deciding to go to law school, then flunking out abandoning that when The Lord laid it on my heart that my true calling is to be a professional "don't let this happen to you/"before picture" cosmetic dentistry model. 

You've supported me through it all because I refuse to work a paying job and I just want to say Happy Second Anniversary, my love!

Oh my. The two years have flown by. Good thing my book, How to Have the Best Marriage Ever, sold those 100 copies and I could pay our tent neighbor to put us on his phone account so you could continue with your mission.

Celebratory dinner tonight!

frito-tacos.jpg

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18 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Oh my. The two years have flown by. Good thing my book, How to Have the Best Marriage Ever, sold those 100 copies and I could pay our tent neighbor to put us on his phone account so you could continue with your mission.

Celebratory dinner tonight!

frito-tacos.jpg

Hopefully you’ll be eating that on an anniversary date night in the car, complete with filthy car seats in the back!  

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10 hours ago, awaken said:

Hopefully you’ll be eating that on an anniversary date night in the car, complete with filthy car seats in the back!  

Car? Car! @Celia Rubenstein, let's grift buy a car! No a van. #vanlife #bestpartnerever #spreadingtheword

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On 8/8/2019 at 4:52 AM, GeeGolly said:

Oh my. The two years have flown by. Good thing my book, How to Have the Best Marriage Ever, sold those 100 copies and I could pay our tent neighbor to put us on his phone account so you could continue with your mission.

Celebratory dinner tonight!

frito-tacos.jpg

Your tent neighbor's tent has WiFi?!?  Lush!!

(I mean, I'm just assuming here, as he wouldn't have much use for a cell phone, or plan, otherwise.)

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On 8/7/2019 at 6:04 PM, lookeyloo said:

I will be watching an important documentary on uses of the chisel. If we had a cat I’d be waxing it. 

Would you like to borrow one of my cats?

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1 hour ago, Rabbittron said:

Would you like to borrow one of my cats?

😀😀 

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People is more choosy about putting the Duggars in the print magazine. Most of the articles we see are online only. 

They did a spread of a bunch of babies born this year to celebrities in the print magazine. Ivy Seewald was included. No pictures of the parents for any of the babies were included. 

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