S06.E08: Season 6, Episode 8

[Avaleigh]

I don't remember if she reported it to the rest of the family, but Mary found out from Evelyn Napier (S2?  S3?) that Edith had written the letter about Pamuk.  Evelyn paid Mary a visit specifically to tell her, somewhat reluctantly, that he had learned this and that that is why the story was given credence - because the information came from her own sister.  That said, and being fully aware of Edith's part in the feud, I remain MUCH more sympathetic to her than to Mary.

Mary never reported to the rest of the family what Edith did to her. They have no idea what a scheming bitch Edith has been in the past. This was an area where Edith was noticeably "lucky". Evelyn was appalled and when Mary eventually confronted Edith about it, Edith didn't feel a shred of remorse. Mary at least got to the point where she regretted what she did. Edith never did and didn't give a shit that her letter caused her sister years worth of grief.

[SusanSunflower]

 

I'd practically forgotten that Isobel was Mary's mother-in-law, since Isobel's scenes are limited to Violet, Dr Clarkson, Lord Merton, and very occasional big family teas.

This has fascinated me ... since Cora is, in fact, Isobel's peer and their relationship might have been expected to deepen as both lost a child and had to deal with the surviving non-bio daughter and son-in-law both parenting their grandchildren and moving on in life... nothing.

 

I wondered about strange (odd) chemistry between Penelope Wiltern and Elizabeth McGovern ... isabel and Wiltern bringing to the table twice the gravitas of Cora and McGovern ... Cora's relationship with Isobel is odd -- she has not befriended Isobel in gratitude taking Violet off her hands, or begrudged Isobel, Violet's acceptance. Cora has spent 30+ years as Violet's (lesser) daughter-in-law ... while middle class Isobel was accepted by Violet as "worthy" very quickly ... It's would be fine if Cora still disliked Isobel going back to hospital days, but it's not shown, nothing is shown, particularly odd wrt Isobel and George. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[Roseanna]

But Mary is being blamed for Edith getting snarky on her in the first place before Mary brought up Marigold. In this thread it has been claimed that Mary's "silence" is what gave her the right to rub Mary's nose in the fact that she got dumped. (ETA: Seriously, even when Mary remains silent she gets criticized.) Edith could have chosen to not react but she didn't make that choice. 

 

Why is it okay for Edith to react and not okay for Mary to react?

 

I think comparing it to spousal abuse it unfair since those are totally different things. Edith was nasty and Mary got nasty back. It's not like Edith was needling Mary for Mary to respond by physically attacking her. 

 

I think the comparison is fair: Mary wasn't only nasty but she she tried to really hurt Edith and Bertie by revealing Edith's secret to Bertie. That's why Tom, Mary's friend and ally, for once lost his temper and reproached her.

 

Plus, Edith took the full responsibility over that she hadn't told Bertie. Mary lied to Tom that she hadn't meant to do what she did.  

[Hanahope]

There was no home to wreck (if a third party can ever do it) as Gregson and his wife hadn't lived together for years. And Gregson could have divorced her a long ago before he met Edith. (Or are Britain's divorce laws still the same?)

 

 

I believe the story was that Gregson's wife had been declared insane and was in an asylum, but Britain's divorce laws wouldn't allow him to divorce her.  That's why he went to Germany, to establish residency there and obtain citizenship (based on residency and maybe heredity from German ancestors?), so he could divorce his wife under German laws, leaving him free to marry Edith.

 

It really is a shame Edith couldn't work up the courage to tell Bertie the truth sooner.  I think she would have eventually, but needed more time.  Was glad that pretty much everyone told Mary that she was a bitch, coward and a bully.  I do have to wonder wtf Talbot is going to do if he can't race cars anymore.  And btw, how does he have money for his car racing 'hobby'?

 

I chuckled a bit when Barrow's rejection letter said he was "over qualified" for the position of butler/valet/chauffer when in fact Barrow is a butler and has been a valet.  How does that make him "over qualified"? 

 

I know that there's never been any scenes between Barrow and Edith (or much), but maybe if Bertie comes back to Edith, Barrow can work for them?  Bertie doesn't seem to have a valet, or at least we've never seen one.  I do presume that the Hexam manor house has a butler already, but maybe Barrow would accept valet again.  Or maybe Carson can finally retire and Barrow will get promoted, which would make Mary happy.

[Ina123]

Thomas becomes Henry’s Valet.
Carson and Mrs. Hughes retire.
Bates becomes butler.
Baxter takes Mrs. Hughes’s position.
Andy takes Thomas’s position.
Lord and Lady Grantham dress themselves and comb their own damn hair.

 

Edith and Mary’s animosity towards one another mirrors Rosamund and Robert. Robert’s “You don’t have any children!” was just as cutting to Rosamund as Mary’s and Edith’s snark with one another.

[whateverdgaf]

If Edith's letter to the Turkish Ambassador can still be used to justify Mary's behaviour, then how can Edith calling Mary out also justify Mary's behaviour as it was Mary needling at Edith that provoked her into sending that letter. I say calling out, because Mary's behaviour that episode had already been abhorrent. She took glee in the fact that Bertie may lose his job (Bertie having done nothing to hurt her but love Edith) and openly said that if Bertie was a Marquess he wouldn't want Edith. And she continued to insult Bertie by talking about him behind his back. So it was not just Mary's silence that caused Edith to snap, it was her behaviour the entire time Bertie was there.

And no, Edith did not apologise for the letter but neither did Mary for driving Anthony Strallen away. In that respect they are equal. If Mary didn't do that then Edith and Anthony may have been married and with children by then, so the consequences of Mary's actions also had a major impact on Edith's life.

And Edith told Mary that Matthew had gone missing, despite Robert specifically telling her not to. Baring in mind, Robert instantly thought that Edith did it to be cruel, so by doing so Edith knowingly risked her already poor reputation with her family because she thought Mary deserved to know. Therefore, she at least made an effort to do something kind for Mary, something Mary had never done. And when Sybil died, Edith showed maturity by trying to extend an olive branch. And she was not being unrealistic. She didn't say 'can we be besties now and love each other for eternity', she said 'can we try to get along a bit better now'. She asked Mary to make an effort in getting along better, to just try.

And when Matthew died, Edith respected Mary's grief. And when the crash happened, Edith went racing after Mary, actually stood between Mary and the crash and held her hands to comfort her while they were waiting to find out what happened.

And after Mary revealed Marigold's parentage, Edith still came back for the wedding despite Mary making no effort to make thing right. She even encouraged Mary by reassuring her that Matthew would be happy for her. Even when talking about the incident with Laura, Edith didn't badmouth Mary, she just said they had a complicated relationship.

Finally, Edith should have told Bertie the truth, which she admitted herself. She took on full responsibility and even wished him luck for the future. She didn't make excuses, she instead admitted to being at fault like a mature adult. Mary however actually tried to make excuses for what she did, and whereas Edith responded by going to work and do something useful, Mary just felt sorry for herself. Even when she was meant to make amends, she didn't reach out to Edith because she didn't think Edith would forgive her.

And if Edith had told Bertie the truth, does that somehow make Mary's actions worse? Her aim and motivation would still be the same, to cause pain and unhappiness for two people, one of whom had been nothing but polite to her and had just lost his cousin. If not, then how does Edith not telling Bertie make Mary's actions more excusable.

[Roseanna]

Mary never reported to the rest of the family what Edith did to her. They have no idea what a scheming bitch Edith has been in the past. This was an area where Edith was noticeably "lucky". Evelyn was appalled and when Mary eventually confronted Edith about it, Edith didn't feel a shred of remorse. Mary at least got to the point where she regretted what she did. Edith never did and didn't give a shit that her letter caused her sister years worth of grief.

 

I don't remember that Mary ever regretted for lying to Strallan in S1. Where was it?

 

In fact, I don't remember that Edith's letter nor Mary's lie to Strallan was even mentioned after S1. Because of those incidents, one would have been expected them to be in each others' throws in S2 but in fact they that then in (relatively) better terms.  

 

And recently Mary even laughed with Anna when they recalled how they carried Pamuk's body! 

[Avaleigh]

I think the comparison is fair: Mary wasn't only nasty but she she tried to really hurt Edith and Bertie by revealing Edith's secret to Bertie. That's why Tom, Mary's friend and ally, for once lost his temper and reproached her.

 

Plus, Edith took the full responsibility over that she hadn't told Bertie. Mary lied to Tom that she hadn't meant to do what she did.  

I was responding to the comment that people are ultimately responsible for how they respond to situations. Edith chose to respond to Mary's silence by being mean. She insisted that she knew better than Mary what the situation was between Mary and Henry. She couldn't allow Mary to save face, she had to deliberately prick Mary, she had to talk about Mary in front her like Mary wasn't even there, and she had to tell Mary that she's the one who's winning at life. Edith had choices and she chose to be mean but it's seen as okay and Mary should have just continued to take it yet Edith gets praised when she stands up to Mary. 

[terrymct]

Henry's role in polite society of Mary's boy-toy (with expensive hobby but no real income) deserves some consideration ... 

 

He's in almost the same position Prince Phillip is with Queen Elizabeth, except that Phillip does have a title beyond the obvious one of "properly pedigreed sperm donor".   

[Avaleigh]

I don't remember that Mary ever regretted for lying to Strallan in S1. Where was it?

 

In fact, I don't remember that Edith's letter nor Mary's lie to Strallan was even mentioned after S1. Because of those incidents, one would have been expected them to be in each others' throws in S2 but in fact they that then in (relatively) better terms.  

 

And recently Mary even laughed with Anna when they recalled how they carried Pamuk's body! 

I was talking about Mary feeling regret over this incident. Edith never once felt guilt or shame over what she did to Mary when she tried to ruin her life and Mary at least felt bad about her behavior. 

 

Mary's lie was mentioned in season 2. Edith was easily able to patch up her situation with Strallan and Strallan made it clear even then that he felt too old for Edith. Edith was the one who chose not to talk to Strallan about the situation in season 1. He immediately believed her when she told him it wasn't true in season 2. The idea that Edith and Mary were even after these two incidents is laughable when Edith was trying to sabotage any chance Mary would ever have and she never once felt bad about it. 

 

Mary and Anna laughing over Pamuk doesn't mean that Mary didn't suffer hugely because of what her sister did to her. 

If Edith's letter to the Turkish Ambassador can still be used to justify Mary's behaviour, then how can Edith calling Mary out also justify Mary's behaviour as it was Mary needling at Edith that provoked her into sending that letter. I say calling out, because Mary's behaviour that episode had already been abhorrent. She took glee in the fact that Bertie may lose his job (Bertie having done nothing to hurt her but love Edith) and openly said that if Bertie was a Marquess he wouldn't want Edith. And she continued to insult Bertie by talking about him behind his back. So it was not just Mary's silence that caused Edith to snap, it was her behaviour the entire time Bertie was there.

And no, Edith did not apologise for the letter but neither did Mary for driving Anthony Strallen away. In that respect they are equal. If Mary didn't do that then Edith and Anthony may have been married and with children by then, so the consequences of Mary's actions also had a major impact on Edith's life.

 

The Pamuk letter doesn't justify Mary's behavior. That isn't the point I'm making. I'm saying that this is evidence that the sisters have both treated each other horribly over the years and that this is one of the big examples for why Mary doesn't see Edith as this innocent victim of hers but rather sees her as an annoying family member who is always looking to needle her and gets happy when things don't go well for her. I've always maintained that Edith and Mary are very much alike in terms of how they treat each other. 

 

I don't see any reason to believe that Edith would definitely be married to Strallan considering the way he eventually treated her. The only reason Edith and Strallan aren't together is because of Strallan. He made the cruel choice to dump Edith and he was the one who didn't trust in Edith back in season 1. 

Edited February 22, 2016 by Avaleigh

[Roseanna]

I was responding to the comment that people are ultimately responsible for how they respond to situations. Edith chose to respond to Mary's silence by being mean. She insisted that she knew better than Mary what the situation was between Mary and Henry. She couldn't allow Mary to save face, she had to deliberately prick Mary, she had to talk about Mary in front her like Mary wasn't even there, and she had to tell Mary that she's the one who's winning at life. Edith had choices and she chose to be mean but it's seen as okay and Mary should have just continued to take it yet Edith gets praised when she stands up to Mary. 

 

As I already said, being mean is not the same as trying deliberately to hurt the other. They are of completely different league.

 

We have seen before that Mary was a bad winner. Now we saw that she is a bad loser too.   

Edited February 22, 2016 by Roseanna

[Avaleigh]

As I already said, being mean is not the same as trying deliberately to hurt the other. They are of completely different league.

 

We have seen that Mary was a bad winner. Now we saw that she is a bad loser too.   

Yet we've seen Edith deliberately try to hurt Mary. Repeatedly. Any sister who is happily engaged and feels the need to announce to the room that the other sister's life sucks isn't trying to be nice by any stretch of the imagination. 

 

Edith couldn't be happy that she was winning and that makes her just as much of a bad winner in my book. Edith is a bad loser too. As I've said, she and Mary are a lot alike. 

[Roseanna]

I was talking about Mary feeling regret over this incident. Edith never once felt guilt or shame over what she did to Mary when she tried to ruin her life and Mary at least felt bad about her behavior. 

 

Yah, Mary really "regretted" and "felt bad": first, she denied to Tom that she hadn't mean to do anything and after he had called her liar, she said the same to Edith. Then she said to Anna that she was sorry for but her voice was flat - totally unlike when she sincerely apologized Anna later in the same scene. And instead of going to meet Edith in London, she called Henry to her. When Edith came to her wedding, she said lamely that she was sorry.

 

Lets again compare how Austen's Emma behaved after she had hurt Miss Bates - she didn't say "I am sorry " but she acted to correct the relationship with her.

[wineaux]

Michelle was great at portraying Mary's curdling at the news about Bertie.

 

The look on her face said it all, like, "WHAT?!  How DARE Edith rise above ME!  That just isn't done!"

 

And ditto regarding Mr. Carson.  He has done such an about face in character since the earlier seasons, I don't even recognize him now.  :-(

Michelle was great at portraying Mary's curdling at the news about Bertie.

 

The look on her face said it all, like, "WHAT?!  How DARE Edith rise above ME!  That just isn't done!"

 

And ditto regarding Mr. Carson.  He has done such an about face in character since the earlier seasons, I don't even recognize him now.  :-(

[gus]

 

Yet we've seen Edith deliberately try to hurt Mary. Repeatedly. Any sister who is happily engaged and feels the need to announce to the room that the other sister's life sucks isn't trying to be nice by any stretch of the imagination.

 

Aside from the sisters' general hatefulness toward each other, I can think of three big events:  (1) Edith's letter to the Turkish Ambassador, when she was about 20 (born in 1892, and shortly after the series began, in 1912); (2) Mary's lie to Strallan, when she was about 23 (one year older than Edith, and the garden party was in 1914, when England got into WWI); (3) Mary's revelation to Bertie, 1925, when she is about 34.  Edith's one truly despicable act with respect to Mary is something she did when she was very young.  Mary's acts occurred when she was significantly older - especially the most recent one - and when she should have been more mature.  I'm not a Mary hater.  This is fiction, she is a good character, and I'm willing to go with the flow of the series, seeing her at least somewhat as JF does and being pleased that she ends up happy (I choose to believe that she and Henry WILL be happy).  But I still see that not only were her major transgressions more blameworthy than Edith's, she also has been far more successful with the more minor cutting remarks over the years - even if it's only because she cares less about Edith's snark than vice versa.  Conclusion:  Mary is the bigger villain in the Mary v Edith story.  

[Roseanna]

The Pamuk letter doesn't justify Mary's behavior. That isn't the point I'm making. I'm saying that this is evidence that the sisters have both treated each other horribly over the years and that this is one of the big examples for why Mary doesn't see Edith as this innocent victim of hers but rather sees her as an annoying family member who is always looking to needle her and gets happy when things don't go well for her. I've always maintained that Edith and Mary are very much alike in terms of how they treat each other. 

 

As Laura Carmichael said in Jessica Fellowes's book, they are alike in that they are just as obstinate and as envious towards each other.

 

However, the sisters quarrel didn't begin in Edith's infamous letter but, as I have written it elsewhere, Mary raised it to a higher level after learning that she had ruined her chances as there were rumors that she wasn't a virgin. Because of it, Mary answered to Edith's needling by hitting her with a hammer which on its turn made Edith to stab her back with her letter. 

After that Edith has sniped Mary but she has not really seriously hurt her or even tried to do so. She could have done it by telling Matthew about Pamuk but she didn't. She could also have said to Henry much worse than that her sister was "a handful", for instance tell about Mary's "drawing journey", but again she didn't.

 

But when Mary got a chance to hurt Edith seriously, she did.    

[Ohwell]

Now that Mary and Henry have tied the knot, is Tom finally going to mind his own damn business and get a life?  Or is he going to intercede whenever Mary and Henry have an argument?  If he's not ready for a love life yet, I still wish he'd go for some long walks and lose some weight instead of looking stuffed in those suits.

[Constantinople]

It would have made more sense if Tom were Cassandra Jones.

[SusanSunflower]

Now you've all got me wondering what (if anything) Henry knows about Mary wrt Edith, Bertie and Marigold or has Tom been "protecting" Mary's reputation yet again. Seriously, finding out about her sisterly knife-in-the-back to Edith might have "cooled his ardor." 

Edited February 22, 2016 by SusanSunflower

[3 is enough]

As far as why Isobel and Cora aren't closer goes, I think it was simply a matter of time constraints.  There just wasn't enough screen time to explore that particular relationship, and Fellowes probably thought that Violet/Isobel would be more entertaining. 

 

I wanted to slap Mary last night.  What a bitch!  I am so glad Tom told her off.

 

I have to cut Edith some slack.  Yes, she behaved horribly with regards to the Pamuk incident, but at the time she was 20 years old.  She appears to have matured, but Mary is still nasty and spiteful 12 year later.

 

And as mentioned above, coming clean about an illegitimate child in 1925 was huge, especially for someone in the upper class.  I think she was gearing up to tell Bertie, but it was not going to be an easy thing to do. 

[Avaleigh]

Aside from the sisters' general hatefulness toward each other, I can think of three big events:  (1) Edith's letter to the Turkish Ambassador, when she was about 20 (born in 1892, and shortly after the series began, in 1912); (2) Mary's lie to Strallan, when she was about 23 (one year older than Edith, and the garden party was in 1914, when England got into WWI); (3) Mary's revelation to Bertie, 1925, when she is about 34.  Edith's one truly despicable act with respect to Mary is something she did when she was very young.  Mary's acts occurred when she was significantly older - especially the most recent one - and when she should have been more mature.  I'm not a Mary hater.  This is fiction, she is a good character, and I'm willing to go with the flow of the series, seeing her at least somewhat as JF does and being pleased that she ends up happy (I choose to believe that she and Henry WILL be happy).  But I still see that not only were her major transgressions more blameworthy than Edith's, she also has been far more successful with the more minor cutting remarks over the years - even if it's only because she cares less about Edith's snark than vice versa.  Conclusion:  Mary is the bigger villain in the Mary v Edith story.  

Edith's letter wasn't written in 1912. She was 21 or 22 depending on her birthday month when she wrote the letter. The feud continued for years and Edith's attitude towards Mary hasn't changed. It was still riddled with unsisterly behavior and because both sisters have been participating in the feud, the dynamic never changes.  

 

The mean little things add up and explain that Mary isn't lashing out at Edith out of nowhere. She's had years of seeing Edith get happy whenever she's having problems in her relationships. Whether it was Edith being happy about Matthew moving on from Mary in season 2, being unable to be happy for Mary without resentment at her wedding, being happy to see Mary hurt over Gillingham, being the only one to try to expose Mary for sex week, being happy when she thinks that Mary will be out of a job, being happy that Mary is sad about Tom leaving, being more than happy to tell Mary that everyone else is moving on with their lives, being happy to tell Mary that she got dumped--these things add up and it's unsurprising that Mary doesn't feel especially loyal to Edith. 

 

All that being said it was still a rotten thing for Mary to do but I don't think she was lashing out at Edith because Edith is daring to exist. I think their dynamic is more complicated than some will allow. 

 

Yah, Mary really "regretted" and "felt bad": first, she denied to Tom that she hadn't mean to do anything and after he had called her liar, she said the same to Edith. Then she said to Anna that she was sorry for but her voice was flat - totally unlike when she sincerely apologized Anna later in the same scene. And instead of going to meet Edith in London, she called Henry to her. When Edith came to her wedding, she said lamely that she was sorry.

The point is that Mary did indeed regret her behavior, she apologized, and she tried to talk to Edith. Edith never once felt bad or apologized for Pamuk or any of the nasty things she said and on top of that Mary never exposed what Edith did to the family. 

[jschoolgirl]

Well I do hope Bertie comes back for Edith. After all she had never accepted his proposal - she said she was still thinking about it as her life was complicated. He took it as a yes since she didn't say no and then without telling her decided to make the announcement the next morning at breakfast. So as far as I can see he is the one that screwed up. I like that Edith has a life in London with the magazine and maybe she will decide that is what she wants. But for once I would like her to decide the direction of her life, not a man.

I don't think Bertie will be back. I think Michael Gregson is going to rise from the dead. But if that doesn't happen, Edith will be just fine with her flat, her magazine, and her Marigold.

[skyways]

''That final love talk between Mary and Henry before they got married was the most unromantic, dispassionate talk I'd ever heard between two people supposedly in love.  They are both so dry and cold.'' 

 

 

That's why I mentioned elsewhere that they were like two effigies - I laughed and laughed at that scene. Soo stilted and flat it was I didn't really get what the director was going for.

Edited February 22, 2016 by skyways

[Jodithgrace]

I was curious about something. Edith calling Mary a "bitch," seemed achronistic to me. I knew the term was used in dog breeding, of course..but as an insult? Silly me. It's been in use since the 14th century, though the meaning was more sexual, as in a "bitch in heat." However, " The word 'bitch,' during the twenties meant 'malicious or consciously attempting to harm,' 'difficult, annoying, or interfering,' and 'sexually brazen or overly vulgar'." So Fellows got it quite right for 2 out of 3 meanings. And so did Edith.

 

I don't think either sister has come off very well over the seasons. Both have been spoiled in their own way. Edith's bad luck has made her more sympathetic, but while she may seem like Mother Theresa compared to Mary, consider her lack of compassion towards those women from whom she took Marigold. And Mary has had her sympathetic moments as well as her bitchy ones.

 

I like both characters, myself. I admire Mary's assertiveness, especially in the 1920's. And I like Edith's attempts to be independent, when she needn't do anything but sit around and be waited on hand and foot. Both have made big strides in dragging Downton into the 20th century. But they are neither of them, saints.

[JudyObscure]

Mary never reported to the rest of the family what Edith did to her.

 

I don't have the DVDs and it's been a long time, so I'm asking if this is how others see that?  I thought Mary had told her mother, who then told Robert, but I can't think of specific reasons to believe that other than what Robert said to Edith when he lashed out at her for telling Mary about Matthew being missing.  Robert said something to Edith like, "You always want to hurt Mary!  Haven't you hurt her enough, already?"

 

As for the idea of  Edith telling the world she is Marigold's mother -- I don't think that would be possible in 1925 without seriously damaging Marigold's future.  In fact, in a real setting,  I think Bertie possibly, and his mother definitely, would consider Edith an impossible candidate for marriage, not so much because she "had a past," but because at that time, to most people, morality was considered an inherited trait.  That was part of what they  meant by "good breeding."  Girls whose mothers were known to have lapsed in their youth were suspect.  There was a fear that her daughters might have inherited the tendency to be loose or wayward. It would seriously effect their prospects and that would be of concern to Bertie as to his own  daughters. 

 

Even as late as 1980, Lady Diana Spencer would not have been considered a possible match for Prince Charles if she hadn't been a virgin.  For Bertie, it wouldn't be as important as for the future King but he would still be concerned that the woman he married could be trusted not to allow someone else to father his heir.

[Stella MD]

Good grief, the redundancy. I will be thrilled when this show is over and I never have to read the phrase "Pamuk letter" ever again.

 

As for which of the sisters is more mature (if this argument seriously needs to be made), the fact that Edith showed up for the wedding and made nice with her sister speaks volumes. If I were Lady Edith, I would have come back from London specifically to ensure that Henry knew about not only Pamuk but also Sex Week with Lord Boringham, since by Mary's own stated rules, fiancés should be allowed to hear everything and make an informed decision before saying "I do".

[magdalene]

Re-watching  this episode since I first watched it last year still has me grinding my teeth over Mary's atrocious behavior towards her sister.  What a miserable excuse for a human being she is for maliciously setting out to destroy her sister. Luckily Edith has developed in a positive way since her youth as a doormat without any self-confidence, and Mary wasn't able to destroy her.  She'll be okay without Bertie.  She has her daughter and her career. 

 

Hopefully Talbot will eventually catch on (once the bloom is off their "grand romance") that he married a shallow and petty sociopath. 

 

Carson continues on my last nerve, poor Mrs Hughes to be stuck with him. 

 

I was so happy for Mr Moseley when he managed  to engage with the children.  He has grown from a character I didn't care at all about to one of my favorites.

 

I continue to really like Robert - and his adorable puppy.

[Clanstarling]

On the other hand, what in the bluedilly fuck with everything else happening this episode? I was so confused every time someone insisted that Mary was just "mad" about Henry? Really??? Cuz if one of my friends/family members was acting that way about a guy my first instinct would not be to invite him to stay over. He was so creepy on the stairs with his whole "I will never stop until I have you" or whatever bullshit he was talking about. I never got any sort of loving vibe from Mary, I truly believed she wanted him gone. And then all of a sudden at the end, they're married??? What??? What is happening? I don't...I can't...ugh, FELLOWES.

I know! I thought that his lines could have been lifted out of a movie about an abusive stalker.

 

Fellowes did an amazing job on this episode, I think one of the best since Season 1. I loved:

 

-the poignant speech of Edith about sisters

 

I am just of the opposite opinion. To me it was complete rubbish and, before all, illogical.

 

Mary had just showed herself to be a person who in the midle of her thirties is still the same as she and Edith were in their early twenties when they stabbed one another's back. Then they at least had a reason (to revenge what the other had done) but now Mary acted for no other reason than to prevent her sister to be happy and outrank her, even if it was entirely in her power to call Henry back and she has in Downton more actual power, having the position that is usually that of the man, than Edith would have as a wife of a Marques.

 

​So why on earth would Edith want to remember the past with her sister, or even ever meet her when she has shown that she can't be trusted at all and has just done all she could to cause her misfortune (although Edith with Bertie quite rightly took the responsibility only to herself)?

Whether or not you're close, when it comes down to it, family is the only thing that connects you to your past. This scene just wrecked me. Seriously. My parents and siblings are all gone, and we did not have much of an extended family. Edith (or Fellowes) has it right - whatever else you have, if someone is still alive, you have shared memories and are still connected to your youth and loved ones.

 

That final love talk between Mary and Henry before they got married was the most unromantic, dispassionate talk I'd ever heard between two people supposedly in love.  They are both so dry and cold.  I'd have rather watched Danker and Spratt have hate sex together.

Oddly, despite the fact I'd never seen any chemistry between them, and didn't "feel" they loved each other, this scene actually worked in showing me how alike they were, and maybe they were right for each other after all.

I had hoped that Bertie would be much more understanding when he inevitably found out via Mary about Marigold. They'd made it clear in previous episodes that he noticed and disapproved of Mary's mean spirited sniping at Edith. If nothing else, he seemed like the kind of guy who'd be more sensitive to Edith's "I'm more complicated than you think" comments, and wouldn't be the type who'd immediately throw down his napkin and ask for a taxi. It seemed a rush to judgement that didn't quite mesh with the way he'd been portrayed previously.

Things I found amusing:

After Grannie told Mary to fix things with her sister, and then fix things for herself, of course Mary fixed things for herself first. The fixing with Edith was largely Edith's initiative.

That no muss, no fuss wedding was fancier than anything I'd ever imagined for myself. (having done it twice).

Edited February 23, 2016 by clanstarling

[Jodithgrace]

I guess it's easy to throw together a little last minute wedding when you have a house full of servants. 

[WatchrTina]

I've just started re-watching the episode and I spotted a small, funny moment. When Anna walks into the yard and sees the policeman you can almost hear her thinking "What now?" Then, when she hears Mrs. Patmore wail "A house of ill repute?!" you can almost hear her thinking, "Oh good, nothing to do with me or Mr. Bates!"

Edited February 23, 2016 by WatchrTina

[Fishy]

Good gracious - Edith is such an idiot.  I never seem to be able to muster up any sympathy for her in the difficult times.   Why or why didn't she tell Bertie the real truth about Marigold.  Did she really think holding back that information was a good idea??  If she did, well then she deserved the outcome.  I was yelling at the TV - tell him already!!! 

 

This is petty but all I see when I watch scenes with Edith is that nose!  I can barely hear anything that's coming out of her mouth for staring at it.  Yikes!

[nara]

Good gracious - Edith is such an idiot.  I never seem to be able to muster up any sympathy for her in the difficult times.   Why or why didn't she tell Bertie the real truth about Marigold.  Did she really think holding back that information was a good idea??  If she did, well then she deserved the outcome.  I was yelling at the TV - tell him already!!! 

 

This is petty but all I see when I watch scenes with Edith is that nose!  I can barely hear anything that's coming out of her mouth for staring at it.  Yikes!

Lady Mary, is that you?

[RedHawk]

So Mary entered into that quickie marriage to Henry without giving him a "test drive"? I'd have made certain to check under the hood.

[Knuckles]

I started watching Downton and at the beginning thought Edith a nasty prig, and her letter about Pamuk seemed unforgivable. But, over time, you can see that frustrated Edith had so little opportunity to fight back against the domineering, overbearing Mary, that I began to soften towards her. Even her own family regarded her as a sad lot. She was also in the shade caused by her glowing younger sister, Sybil.

No one has had a harder time than Edith, and with less support from her family. I was so glad she found Michael Gregson, and glad that he left her an apartment and a publishing company, as well as a daughter. For the latter she had to run a bruising  obstacle course simply to keep her near. 

Nothing has been easy for her, and at every mistep Mary has been there to gloat or to make it more painful. I was so happy she finally laid the bitch out verbally.

And disappointed that she spoke so movingly to Mary later and even attended her wedding. 

Edith is an adult...Mary is an aging adolescent. And a serious bitch. Good luck Henry.

[txhorns79]

So Mary entered into that quickie marriage to Henry without giving him a "test drive"? I'd have made certain to check under the hood.

 

I kept thinking that Mary showed more emotion in talking to Matthew's tombstone than she ever has with Henry.  She'd definitely want to take a sex holiday before agreeing to marriage.  And I did agree with her that there is something very obnoxious when everyone decides they know best for you.   

 

 

I've just started re-watching the episode and I spotted a small, funny moment.  When Anna walks into the yard and see the policeman you almost hear her thinking "What now?"  Then, when she hear's Mrs. Patmore wail "A house of ill repute?!" you can almost hear her thinking, "Oh good, nothing to do with me or Mr. Bates!"

 

Hee.  I can imagine her reaction is a variation of: "Oh great, who is dead now?" 

 

And for God sake's, shut up Carson.  When you are more concerned about the family's reputation than they are, then you need to get a life. 

[Artymouse]

I rewatched the episode, and I've come up with a theory as to why Tom is so hellbent on getting Mary and Henry married off. When Tom left Downton for America, he was the estate agent. When he came back, he had to share the job with Mary.

For all that he cares about her and enjoys her company, I think he was getting a little irritated/frustrated with how high-handed and imperious she was with him about pretty much everything. So he figured he could get her married to Henry, she might have less time for agenting, and he could have a little peace and quiet on the job.

And that's not to say that Tom doesn't believe they love each other and are right for each other. But I can just see him thinking, "she's so darn picky about men. If she throws this one over, who knows when she'll find someone else she likes enough for more than a sex week in Liverpool."

It's just a thought, but it made a lot of sense as I rewatched it.

[Macbeth]

Now that Mary and Henry have tied the knot, is Tom finally going to mind his own damn business and get a life?

 

 Actually given that love triangle - the passion and chemistry between Tom and Henry is actually real unlike Mary and Henry's.

 

Is the name of the actor, playing the police officer, finally in the opening credits?  At this point it should be.

 

The man without a heart is you Mr. Carson not Mr. Barrows.  Don't project your character defaults onto others, Mr. Barrows has enough of his own.  The greatest mystery on this show is not Mary and Henry's pairing  but Mrs. Hughes and Mr. Carlson's.

 

Isobel was actually allowed to  talk about Matthew on screen. Of course she didn't say his name  - He who will not be named.  JF can hold quite a grudge.  Will we see Isobel with her only grandchild??  Probably not.  JF don't blame the child for the sins of the actor.  JF has acted like a jilted lover.

 

Mary finally gets a blood relative on her side, but she completely ignores her advice, Violet tells her the 1st thing was to make amends with her sister.  1st thing she does is call Henry and basically whine about how she would love to apologize to Edith, but well you know, the bother.

 

Robert was completely kicking ass all over the place.  He was cheering Edith on, admonishing Mary on her low blow, felt sorry for Tom (even though I don't), and sticking up for Mrs. Patamore (even making sure she was placed prominently in the photo).

[caligirl50]

I loved this episode.  I cried and cried at most everything (I too have a bitch of a sister and we fight more and talk less less and less as the years go by - I have never had a problem telling her where to go). I knew that Mary and Talbot got married and I knew there was a hiccup with Edith’s happiness.  I agree about the newspaper (which they keep calling a magazine).  It looks really fun and it would make a great show.  The editor is awesome.

 

Now if we could just get something to happen for Tom.  Maybe in the Christmas episode Henry gets him a side job as a mechanic for one of the racing teams?

[TiredMe]

I am over the Mary vs Edith debate. Lol But it's hard for me to imagine ever defending behavior such as Mary's in this episode. No excuse ever for that kind of crap.

What the heck have they done to Carson? He was never this bad before. I still think he's a goner.

There was some good this episode. But for me the best was Tom escaping the clutches of that viper Mary. Why anyone would wish that horrible women on poor nice Tom is beyond me. So Mary and Henry hooking up??? Yippee I say!

[peggy06]

Whew! Finally made it through the thread. I have always been more of a Mary fan, since both of them have been awful to each other but Edith is self-pitying and also doesn't seem to own her own meanness as much as Mary is willing to do. But I was aghast at Mary in this episode. Michelle Dockery has courage, to play the nastiness to the hilt. Every bad character trait was fully on display, and even magnified: The false concern for Bertie's job covering over happiness that there might be a spoke in Edith's romance; the snobbery (almost comical dismay that Edith might outrank her); the Edith put-down (saying Bertie would drop her now he's a Marquess); the brusqueness to her family. Finally, her outing of Edith's secret out of sheer malice. I was dumbfounded. This is Fellowes' heroine? He made her almost irredeemable. Sure, Edith goaded her (Edith is not a nice person either). But that doesn't excuse throwing that sort of grenade. If Mary isn't instrumental in bringing about a reconciliation between Edith and Bertie, the series is going to end on a sour note.

 

I think the way they did the romance with Henry is mostly to blame for this. First, he should have been around a lot more. Possibly introduced mid-season 5. Maybe then there would have been more of a chance to see a relationship growing between them. As it is, he piqued Mary's interest in the CS and by the third time we see him, we're supposed to buy that they're in love. No hints were given of other meetings, other times he spent at Downton. It just wasn't enough time - it felt abrupt and forced. There was also a lack of chemistry between them, but maybe that was also down to the rush-rush plot and writing. Anyway, I think we were meant to accept that Mary's horrible behavior in this episode was because her head and her heart were tearing her up inside. But if you can't buy that she was hopelessly in love, that's a hard leap to make. (Also, even if true, it doesn't excuse trying to make another person just as miserable. But it would have at least seemed to make some sense as a plot.)  

 

There was an interesting comment in Mary's scene with Violet. Violet said something about Mary being one of the few people who wanted to be taken as cold, that most people try to hide such traits. I think the inference was that Mary isn't cold deep inside, but she doesn't want anyone to know that so they can't hurt her. This, taken with Matthew's death and her behavior over the past few seasons, actually holds together pretty well and makes for an interesting character. But it wasn't well-developed. Neither was Mary's terror about Henry racing, even though it's a completely obvious emotion for her to have. If Mary was the main series character, more effort should have gone in to making these connections. We could well have dispensed with the entire hospital subplot, which so far has been almost a standalone story, and not a very interesting one. We should have had more of Mary's grief, even if only shown in private moments. How silly and petty if disgruntlement at an actor prevented this logical and natural character development. The result is that the creator's idea of Mary is very much at odds with that of many in the viewing audience, and plots just don't make sense or have any dramatic weight.

 

Incidentally, I think having Tom acting as go-between hurt the development of the Mary/Henry romance. It took up so much time that it came off like Tom was more invested than Mary. Bad writing also hurt, especially Henry's so-called strong behavior in this episode, that came across more like being a creepy jerk. It was creepy on its face, and also the actor wasn't able to pull it off convincingly. Mary seemed 100% sincere in wanting him gone, and who could blame her?

 

Going back to Violet's comment, this is sort of mirrored in the scene after Mary summons Henry back to Downton. They're standing half a room apart,  although it's a scene of high emotion. Henry comments on Mary's sang-froid, saying that his heart is beating out of his chest, and yet his demeanor is cool and unruffled. In that way, maybe they are really well-matched, both presenting a cool exterior but with more going on under the surface. Looking back, their courtship (what we saw of it) was like that. It's unresolved how they are going to devise a life together, but by leaving it till almost the end, Fellowes apparently had to drop questions like How will Mary deal with her fears about Henry's racing? Will Henry be bored at Downton? Will Mary get tired of him being away, or conversely, being a noncontributing member of the family? (But maybe in the CS, there'll be a family reunion and 40 hearty Talbots will be struck down en masse, making Henry a lord and obviating the need for him to be anything else.)

 

In other stories:

I am sure Bertie is going to come back, hat in hand. It's not realistic for the times, but all will be forgiven and they'll marry. If for no other reason than Chekhov's mama-in-law has to make an appearance. I have to say, Bertie seemed a bit wet in this episode. And a bit dim - he knows Edith inherited an expensive flat, she makes the rather unusual request that she brings her "family's ward" to their marriage, she hints at a secret, and he can't put two and two together?

 

Carson is impossibly curmudgeonly - sometimes Mrs. Hughes' face looks truly appalled. He seems to grow more snobbish and officious by the week. Maybe he needs to retire. I loved when he was pontificating about Mrs. Patmore's troubles, and Mrs. H. reminded him they had been planning a B&B themselves.

Edited February 23, 2016 by peggy06

[ZuluQueenOfDwarves]

I'm firmly of the opinion that Bertie wouldn't have left so hastily had he not been dealing with his cousin's death. He had all the affairs of his cousin's interment to worry about, all the practical matters of being the new marquess out of nowhere, and of course, the emotional turmoil of grief. If his cousin hadn't died, or even if he had but he'd had time to acclimate, and Mary was still compelled to spill the beans about Marigold, I don't think Bertie would've made such a quick getaway. So...come on, Christmas Special!

Re: those who are Mary fans and feel Edith's flaws get glossed over by her fans/the show in general--I like both sisters as characters, and agree Edith can be a nasty piece of work in her own way, as much as Mary. Buuuuuuuuut, just like good comedians will mock the crazy rhetoric spewed by, say, Donald Trump, instead of a homeless person, is the perceived power of the target. When Edith fights, she punches up. Mary punches down. Not so much in their current dynamic, but the one they were locked into from Edith's birth.

[izabella]

 Actually given that love triangle - the passion and chemistry between Tom and Henry is actually real unlike Mary and Henry's.

 

 

Tom and Henry were so giddy when they got in the car together to drive to the wedding.  It looked like they were heading to their own wedding.

[Mrs Shibbles]

I know it was meant to be a lighter storyline, but the Mrs. Patmore bit did not entertain me as intended. First off, she had this dream that she long worked for, only to be immediately derailed by someone else's actions. Yes, it's ridiculous that her business should suffer from (now outdated) moral punishment, but that didn't make the devastation to her/her business funny to me. It was nice that she was so touched by Robert's declaration of loyalty, but again I was just saddened by the fact that she had to rely on it at all, and that it was even a question/decision that they should support her. Then everyone hah-hah-ing all over the place, isn't it just HILARIOUS that her plans for retirement are down the tubes. Oh my sides.

 

  

Also, Anna and Bates can suck it right along with Carson, Mary and Daisy. Poor Mrs. Patmore is humiliated and all these twits can do is laugh and gossip about it, almost as if they were never in a publicly embarrassing situation. Or three. By the way, I feel like Fellowes paid the actor who plays the police officer a huge flat fee and decided to shoehorn him into every episode just to get his money's worth.

Thank you! I was really put off by Anna and Mr Bates, especially, having such a chuckle over poor Mrs. Patmore, after all they went through with the law, and all the moping.

[Kohola3]

I wish we could have seen Bertie's cousin, if only to see how frail a man would have to be in order for Bertie to consider him frail.

 

No AIDS back then but maybe some sort of STD?

 

I don't buy the whole marriage story line for a hot second.  First of all, they spent, what, a few hours max together and that was mostly in groups or crowds.  There was some quippy banter followed by declarations of true love. Second, Mary does her hysterical freakout about the car crashes and then "oh, well, never mind". Third,  Henry acts like some sort of crazed stalker (albeit one with a flat affect), carrying around a marriage license and keeping a bishop on retainer.  I saw not one spark of true emotion or connection between them.  They are like cardboard cutouts.  The whole thing was ridiculous and positively cringe-worthy.

 

But golly gumdrops I loved seeing Mary getting slapped down by everyone.

[MisterGlass]

I was thinking about Spratt's columns as Cassandra Jones, and I wonder if her persona is modeled on Lady Violet.  Violet has never been shy or restrained about giving her advice, and what an inspiration she'd be.

[nara]

Also, Anna and Bates can suck it right along with Carson, Mary and Daisy. Poor Mrs. Patmore is humiliated and all these twits can do is laugh and gossip about it, almost as if they were never in a publicly embarrassing situation. Or three. By the way, I feel like Fellowes paid the actor who plays the police officer a huge flat fee and decided to shoehorn him into every episode just to get his money's worth.

I don't think they were being malicious. The idea of adorable Pattmore being associated with ill repute was so absurd it made them laugh. If I remember correctly, all the laughing was before she heard that people were canceling reservations...

[sark1624]

I hate the Bates, they expect all the solidarity from everyone in the house but they laugh about other misery, many said that is Edith who plays the victim, buy imo is them who like to play it. In season 2 Anna was rude and cold towards mrs Hughes because she testified against Bates in the trial, like if you can go and lie in a courthouse. Also both of them treated like crap Baxter when she intented be nice to them, the same woman who expend her free trying to help Bates (they found the pub were he had lunch). Both of them complained about Sgt Willis when he came to the house and gave them the news that there was a new witness in their case, they didnt thought for a second that he was being kind to them by telling. 

 

I really can understand that the upstair people laugh about Mrs Patmore "scandal" because to them the problem it seems little and Rosamound knew that the solution was also simple, but Anna and Bates are from the downstairs lot and they should knew all the effort that Mrs Patmore put in that business.  

[izabella]

Three cheers for Lady Rosamund in stepping up and suggesting they visit Mrs. Patmore's B&B.  That was kind of her, and I'm so glad it turned out beautifully.

[moonb]

Tom and Henry were so giddy when they got in the car together to drive to the wedding.  It looked like they were heading to their own wedding.

 

Tom also had great chemistry with Matthew iirc. And even with Robert. He's done better with the men in the show than the women.

Edited February 23, 2016 by moonb

[izabella]

Whew! Finally made it through the thread. I have always been more of a Mary fan, since both of them have been awful to each other but Edith is self-pitying and also doesn't seem to own her own meanness as much as Mary is willing to do. But I was aghast at Mary in this episode. Michelle Dockery has courage, to play the nastiness to the hilt. Every bad character trait was fully on display, and even magnified: The false concern for Bertie's job covering over happiness that there might be a spoke in Edith's romance; the snobbery (almost comical dismay that Edith might outrank her); the Edith put-down (saying Bertie would drop her now he's a Marquess); the brusqueness to her family. Finally, her outing of Edith's secret out of sheer malice. I was dumbfounded. This is Fellowes' heroine? He made her almost irredeemable. Sure, Edith goaded her (Edith is not a nice person either). But that doesn't excuse throwing that sort of grenade. If Mary isn't instrumental in bringing about a reconciliation between Edith and Bertie, the series is going to end on a sour note.

 

Michele Dockery did a masterful job with Mary this episode - she gave us full-on Mary at her Worst, and nailed every sneer and eye roll, and the slipping of her social mask.