S06.E08: Start To Finish

[Mu Shu]

At the risk of being banished to the back of an overturned bus in a prison yard...I still like Morgan and am clinging to the admittedly fading hope that the character can somehow be redeemed. Not sure what that would take, but -- quoting from another of my favorite apocalyptic shows, Survivors -- "Hope never dies."

Full disclosure: I've adored Lennie James since Jericho days.

I'll cut you some slack because I'm probably one of five people in the universe who likes Father pee pee.

[mandolin]

I'll cut you some slack because I'm probably one of five people in the universe who likes Father pee pee.

I've enjoyed him in the last two episodes.

[TexasChic]

I like Morgan. I could easily see myself in the same frame of mind given the circumstances. And well... I don't necessarily like Father PP, but I'd like to see him and Morgan both go through some hard fought transitions. Otherwise, I just don't see them as long for this world. I also really, really would like to see Eugene evolve into a total badass. That would be sooooo cool.

[GreyBunny]

I'm with you.  I hope they find a way to swing Morgan's pendulum back into a reasonable place.  Of course, when Morgan finally becomes likable again they'll probably kill him off.  

 

I'm liking Father Gabriel too, I was hoping he'd stop peeing his pants and become helpful with defending the fort.  It looks like he's beginning to.

[Giselle]

Actually, I think a more accurate parallel would be current-day Morgan and early-S4 (post-farm/pre-Prison-collapse) Rick:

• Both have suffered personal loss: Morgan lost wife and son, Rick lost Shane and Lori.
• Both went unbalanced for a bit: Morgan wanting to "clear" the world, Rick seeing and getting phone calls from ghost Lori.
• Both needed to embrace an escape from violence to regain their stability: Morgan learning aikido, Rick becoming Farmer Rick.
• Both required tutelage from an elder to navigate this road back to sanity, then lost their tutor: Morgan had the Cheese Wiz, Rick had Herschel.

In short ( I know, I know - too late):

• Rick and Morgan have been traveling the same road; Morgan just happens to be a couple of months behind, metaphorically speaking.
• In those "couple of months", Rick has had to deal with extreme situations (ex. the Prison collapse, Terminus, Termite Lite) which have drastically attenuated Rick's ability to hang on to the pacifist mindset to which Morgan still clings.

Give Morgan some tine, and he should figure it out - and hopefully, not too many people will die in the interim while he sorts out his shit. :)

 

 

Well Carol or Michone better not end up one of his "unfortunate events in the way to an epiphany".

 

 

If they die so does my viewership. The rest of 'em can be philosophical struggle fodder, even Judith.

[peach]

I'm with you.  I hope they find a way to swing Morgan's pendulum back into a reasonable place.  Of course, when Morgan finally becomes likable again they'll probably kill him off.  

 

I'm liking Father Gabriel too, I was hoping he'd stop peeing his pants and become helpful with defending the fort.  It looks like he's beginning to.

 

My college kid made me watch Starship Troopers with him over Thanksgiving, and lo and behold, we all shouted "THERE'S FATHER GABRIEL!" halfway through it.  He was down with blowing away alien bugs, so hopefully he can come around on this show.  lol

[SometimesBites]

I think I love you. In the David Cassidy way.

Aww. *blush. 1970--what a year.

[SometimesBites]

Eugene, Tara and Rosita just...sit in a garage while some walkers gently tap at the glass of the door. Um...ok. What was their plan? Why weren't they trying to get into the house?

 

...

 

I can't lie though...the Wolf brought the laughs. Him constantly undermining Morgan's comments about his nature and ability to change made me snicker.

All of this. Tara and Rosita couldn't, at the very, very least, cover the garage door windows to help the walkers lose immediate interest? And the blase conversation with no action steps was beyond goofy.

 

And yeah, I actually like Unfair Wolf a lot. He gets such a compassionate look on his face...SO sincere. Never lies. Tells everyone just exactly what his intentions are. I love him. Except when he smiles, cause that's just nasty.

[nobody30]

So, I get that you can't expect everyone to make reasonable descisions in a zombie apocalypse, but this episode it was clearly a contest on how to get killed in the most stupid way possible.

 

So, I know that Carol has an issue with Morgan because of the guy he is trying to teach not to kill anymore, but when all hell broke loose (that is the walkers were right in town), the top priority was still to run over there to kill that guy, seriously? That guy could have stayed locked up there until this was over, but she couldn't let it go for 2 seconds, and had to risk everybody's life because of it? Congrats Carol for being such a crazy, selfish bi***!

 

And ok, Ron is pissed and want's to shoot Carl. But after they are trapped in the house with all of the walkers outside he still tries to go through with it, letting the walkers in accidentially, really? How stupid can that boy get?

 

And I also get that Sam is kind of traumatized, but you can't tell me that his mother can't explain to him to shut the f*** up before leaving the house, or, if he fails to do so, cover his mouth instantly, or give him a small sign to shut up, before he shouts "Mom" inbetween the walkers 3 times, so they all might get eaten up.

 

Sometimes it seems some peolpe are just to dumb to stay alive.

[Bec]

I chuckled when the wolf kept going on about how "nothing's unfair anymore". Think the writers put that in there just for the people who keeps calling them "unfair wolves"?

 

Was anyone really expecting Morgan to just step aside and be like "okay, sure, kill this guy if you want"? I can see why Carol would want to kill that wolf ASAP, though. As long as he's alive he could get out and start killing everyone any second. It was dumb to try to take Morgan head-on right next to the wolf (who didn't see it coming that he would get his hands on at least one of their weapons in the scuffle), but I chalk that up to her head injury. Carol without a head injury would probably have pretended to see the error of her ways, waited for Morgan to be asleep (dude has to sleep some time), then sneak in and stab that wolf right in the head before anyone even realizes what she's doing.

 

And not that this makes him a whole lot smarter, but Ron did think they were all going to die anyways, in that mindset he didn't see any point in even trying to survive. He just wanted the chance to kill Carl and probably Rick before they all die, apparently.

[ghoulina]

At the risk of being banished to the back of an overturned bus in a prison yard...I still like Morgan and am clinging to the admittedly fading hope that the character can somehow be redeemed. Not sure what that would take, but -- quoting from another of my favorite apocalyptic shows, Survivors -- "Hope never dies."

 

I won't banish you. I'm holding out hope for Morgan too. I've just loved his character for so long, I refuse to believe they're going to totally ruin him. I'm choosing to look at him like an addict, who's scared what killing again will lead to. I just feel like his journey isn't over, so I'm reserving my full opinion until further notice. 

 

I'll cut you some slack because I'm probably one of five people in the universe who likes Father pee pee.

 

I don't know if it's because Ron sucks SO hard, and Sam is now on my shit list, but this last episode was the first time I didn't hate FPP. Maybe there's hope for him yet. 

 

I chuckled when the wolf kept going on about how "nothing's unfair anymore". Think the writers put that in there just for the people who keeps calling them "unfair wolves"?

 

I hope they did, because I yelled back at the screen - "Except you!"

[NoWillToResist]

I'll cut you some slack because I'm probably one of five people in the universe who likes Father pee pee.

 

You know, I don't ask for much out of the ZA survivors beyond a willingness to help/learn/be useful. FPP took a giant step forward in this ep by standing with Rick and committing to help. That went a long way to redeeming him for me. If it was a genuine turning point for him, then I can dismiss most of his earlier behaviours as someone who was woefully under-prepared for the realities of the ZA and just took a little longer than most to find his resolve. And since he appeared to be a priest in the middle of ass nowhere, perhaps the shock of violence and death really did fuck him up mentally until now.

 

I'm with you.  I hope they find a way to swing Morgan's pendulum back into a reasonable place. 

 

Well, they did it with Carol. I hated her in the early seasons (too much crying!!), then she came around and made herself useful and learned some useful things and became a productive member of the group. She then swung a little too hard to one side with the Karen/David debacle, and seems to have come back to a more reasonable middle (when she's not concussed). ;)

And who knows, with the Wolf taking Denise hostage, maybe Morgan will realize that some people don't deserve to be spared. I just hope that he doesn't say "well, he didn't kill us all when he could have, so I was clearly right!"

 

 

Congrats Carol for being such a crazy, selfish bi***!.

 

Or....Congrats Carol for being concussed and thus acting OOC.  ;)

Edited December 4, 2015 by NoWillToResist

[rab01]

I don't know if it's because Ron sucks SO hard, and Sam is now on my shit list, but this last episode was the first time I didn't hate FPP. Maybe there's hope for him yet.

It's really easy for this show to get me to like people more - just have them start killing stuff. We all hated Jessie less as soon as she scissored that wolf, The only time I really disliked Rick was during his farmer phase and trying to keep a gun from Carl; On the fence about Deanna? Kill some walkers and I'm her biggest fan. Rosita and Tara didn't shoot the wolf? I started disliking them again. So FPP starts to stand in there in the walker killing business and I'm not praying for his death quite as hard.

 

Have i I mentioned that the morality of this Show (and my fan interaction with it) is f'ed up? ;)

[BetyBee]

The Governor was stationary in Woodbury, Terminus was also a stationary group, and Negan is hunkered down in his own locale (at least according to the trio that Daryl ran into a few eps ago). The ASZ was/is an established community. It's our guys who are doing all the roaming. The Wolves are the exception to the bad guys we've seen; they seem to be organized, but they don't seem to have a home base.  I don't think any of the major bad guys were looking for an empire: trying to expand by taking over another group's holdings. Negan may be the exception; I don't know.

 

But yeah, let's get on with the world building, please. It's past time to move in that direction.

I would like the world building to begin too.  What an interesting story that could be. They could still have battles with those who would try to take what they have. But they could also have treaties and trading and allies. It's what societies do. What a shame that ASZhats still had to go foraging.  Why didn't Deanna think of growing crops 2 years ago when the walls went up?  TWD writers are always a day late and a dollar short and seem content to just recycle stories and have our heroes re-learn the same lessons over and over.  

 

I can't quit this show.  I'm in so far I'll have to see it through to the end.  I hope the stories improve, but I doubt they will.  I'm also hopeful that the Wolf will keep Denise alive, if only so she can continue doctoring him.  Then she can be rescued, but by then she'll have some insight into the Wolves.  I did love the zombies in this episode, as well as the homage to Night of the Living Dead - at least that's what I was reminded of when they were in the house trying to keep the Walkers out.  

 

I was so disappointed that Abraham & company didn't show up with the bazooka (or whatever it is) and that Glen/Enid didn't do anything to rescue CDB.  The first episode in Feb. will probably be awesome, followed by disappointing stuck in the mud stories.  

[Macbeth]

It's really easy for this show to get me to like people more - just have them start killing stuff.

Have i I mentioned that the morality of this Show (and my fan interaction with it) is f'ed up? ;)

 

 

I am totally with you.  Thank you for making me realize that I am a complete savage at heart.

[morgankobi]

Plus at the time of confrontation, Pete had a specific lack of any kind of weapon (as well as fortitude - intestinal OR testicular - but I digress).

Whereas Morgan had a REALLY big stick - albeit not pointy.

:)

But what would she have done if either of them had had a banana?

 

I get that in theory it was not the time for Carol to go after the Unfair Wolf, but she, like Rick, has learned that you just don't wait to take out a threat. All that does is increase the chance that threat will do some damage. And in this case, it's not a bad idea to reduce the immediate threat so you aren't attacked from both sides at once. The Wolf was able to untie himself (big surprise) and had they not been down there, likely would have just snuck upstairs and killed them anyway after dispatching with Dr. Denise.

[Ocean Chick]

And actually the walkers were not an immediate threat to Carol and Morgan.  They weren't beating down the doors to get at them.  In fact, besides the ones trying to get at Rosita, Tara and Eugene in the garage, it seems as if the walkers were ignoring them.  For all they knew they could have waited until the walkers lost interest in the town and start wandering away.  But Carol knows how quickly leaving bad people alive can come back to haunt you.  Rick left Andrew alive back at the prison, and Andrew ended up being the cause of Lori and T-Dog's deaths.  Wolf dude could have gotten free at any time and caused more deaths while Carol and Morgan were trying to kill walkers.  I'd always consider that someone who is able to think is more of a danger than people with no brain function.

 

Except in the case of the Bush brothers, of course.

[Pixiebomb]

I chuckled when the wolf kept going on about how "nothing's unfair anymore". Think the writers put that in there just for the people who keeps calling them "unfair wolves"?

.

I will only believe the writers read our thread if they make Father Gabriel actually pee his pants. Oh please let that happen.

[NoWillToResist]

We all hated Jessie less as soon as she scissored that wolf,

 

*tries not to take this sentence into the gutter*

 

*fails*

 

;)

[lulee]

I will only believe the writers read our thread if they make Father Gabriel actually pee his pants. Oh please let that happen.

Aww, not when he's showing glimmers of competence. How about a line about how he still feels like he's about to pee his pants?

[Dobian]

I'll cut you some slack because I'm probably one of five people in the universe who likes Father pee pee.

 

I like him because of The Wire.  Glad the character is getting a lot less annoying.

[Starchild]

TWD writers are always a day late and a dollar short and seem content to just recycle stories and have our heroes re-learn the same lessons over and over. 

 

I can't quit this show.  I'm in so far I'll have to see it through to the end.

You see, that first part is why, for me, the second part isn't true. Since the stories seem like they will repeat ad infinitum, then as soon as there are no more characters left on the show that you are interested in watching, you can quit the show. Why watch characters you are ambivalent about go through motions you've seen a dozen times?

[Lii]

You see, that first part is why, for me, the second part isn't true. Since the stories seem like they will repeat ad infinitum, then as soon as there are no more characters left on the show that you are interested in watching, you can quit the show. Why watch characters you are ambivalent about go through motions you've seen a dozen times?

Hence why plot armor even exists. To make up for garbage writing and holes so big you could crash a watchtower through them. There are segments of fanbase who are fully prepared and ready to tap out at the death of Carol, or Glenn, or Rick, or Daryl, or whatever. If the writing was better, TPTB wouldn't have to be so scared of making big moves, and they wouldn't make bitch moves like the Glenn fakeout either.

[AndySmith]

Sometimes it seems some peolpe are just to dumb to stay alive.

 

Sometimes?

 

And who knows, with the Wolf taking Denise hostage, maybe Morgan will realize that some people don't deserve to be spared. I just hope that he doesn't say "well, he didn't kill us all when he could have, so I was clearly right!"

 

I almost feel that is exactly what will happen.

Edited December 5, 2015 by AndySmith

[Anela]

At the risk of being banished to the back of an overturned bus in a prison yard...I still like Morgan and am clinging to the admittedly fading hope that the character can somehow be redeemed. Not sure what that would take, but -- quoting from another of my favorite apocalyptic shows, Survivors -- "Hope never dies."

 

Full disclosure: I've adored Lennie James since Jericho days. 

I still like him, I'm just frustrated by what they've done to him. 

 

 

 

I almost feel that is exactly what will happen.

I can't remember if I mentioned it the other night, but I was also afraid that would happen. "He let us live, so there's a chance he'll change."

[Danez]

The thing is did Deana actually get bit? Everyone I talk to thought she did due to the "bite" marks but what I saw was that she fell on a buzz type of saw or a cog of a clock leaving teeth like marks maybe. I have only watched it once but it is my theory. I can see Rick seeing this cog with blood on it and realising this mistake, too late..

Edited December 5, 2015 by Danez

[diebartdie]

Well if she wasnt bit when she fell down she sure as hell was when she opened the door to a hall full of shamblers.

[DEM]

One issue I have is that she just stood there, holding the knife in front of her, not making any attempt to actually close distance and stab the Wolf. Showing her only card and then standing there trying to convince Morgan, who is armed with a much, much bigger card, just isn't the Carol that we all know and fear.

 

I went back and watched the entire Carol-Morgan sequence a couple of times because some of the descriptions of Carol's actions [not yours, CM!] were messing with my mind (i.e., they were extremely inaccurate).  It seems to me the confrontation in the cell was one of the many instances of less-than-inspired direction and confusing editing.  See also: Maggie's trip, fall, and jog to the ladder; and disappearing Tobin + Eugene suddenly being alone when he'd been with Tara/Rosita/Tobin only moments before.

 

When Carol entered the cell she already had her knife drawn and she told Denise -- who was daintily putting away her tools one-by-one -- to step aside. Denise finally moved but Morgan immediately entered the room and stepped between Carol and Wolfie.  The sequence of actions was just too slow.  I guess the director was trying to show that Carol was hesitant to kill a man who was tied up, but to me it came across more like "Character A needs to delay until Character B enters so they can fight!"

 

The entire episode was a strange mix of High! Octane! Action! and Sloooow. Character. Beats.

[Ohwell]

The thing is did Deana actually get bit? Everyone I talk to thought she did due to the "bite" marks but what I saw was that she fell on a buzz type of saw or a cog of a clock leaving teeth like marks maybe. I have only watched it once but it is my theory. I can see Rick seeing this cog with blood on it and realising this mistake, too late..

Yeah, I didn't see her get bit either.  I just saw her falling on the cog thingy.

[SharonH58]

I was loving the Unfair wolf.  He made me laugh and he was snowing the 'psychiatrist'.  Here too is another case of the show building up a bad group and wasting them.  I wanted more of the Termites.  They build the wolves up and then it's 10 people??  That Carol can take out?  Oh and Rick.  I hope Mr Sly Wolf gets away but kills Denise first.

[Nashville]

But what would she have done if either of them had had a banana?

 

Don't say that to me.  Old lady and I were just watching Burlesque on DVD the other night.

[paigow]

I like him because of The Wire.

He was a useless idiot on Oz

[Mattipoo]

I really hate that wolf Morgan was hiding in the basement. He has the most punchable face I have ever seen on a person and I hope he dies a terrible death by a large horde of zombies. Poor Denise. She is such a poor lamb, I hope she survives and her and Tara get together and consummate their love.

[Bec]

The Wolf was able to untie himself

It was with Morgan’s knife, though, which wolfie wouldn’t have gotten ahold of if they weren’t fighting right next to him.

 

This also explains why Denise didn’t do anything while wolfie was getting out of his bonds. He would have gutted her like a fish if she tried anything.

 

And Morgan, Morgan, Morgan - you could have at least tied his hands behind his back. Some duct tape around the arms, perhaps. Make it harder for him to make a move. I know you can handle him (when you’re actually paying attention), but if you’re gonna leave a defenceless person like Dr. Denise with him, take some precautions, dammit.

 

I will only believe the writers read our thread if they make Father Gabriel actually pee his pants.

I thought we call him Father Pee Pants because he did already pee his pants in terror at least once. But now I can’t remember when that happened or if it happened at all.

[Starchild]

No, I don't think so.

[Ailianna]

I thought we call him Father Pee Pants because he did already pee his pants in terror at least once. But now I can’t remember when that happened or if it happened at all.

 

Wasn't that at his introduction, when he was trying to stay on top of a big rock to avoid a walker and CDB found him, rescued him, and saw he'd peed his pants?

[editorgrrl]

I thought we call him Father Pee Pants because he did already pee his pants in terror at least once. But now I can’t remember when that happened or if it happened at all.

Gabriel cowered on the rock in season 5, episode 3, "Four Walls and a Roof," but he did not pee his pants. This is the earliest reference I found:

Some folks just need killing, and sorry for the mess, Father Pee-Pants.

Back on topic, Gabriel's redemption arc this episode makes me suspect he'll die soon. Eugene is growing more slowly, so he'll stick around. For now, at least.

[EyesGlazed]

Sam, it's time to go look at the flowers. Ron, you look too. Carol is temporarily out of commission but Carl's there.

[henripootel]

Gabriel cowered on the rock in season 5, episode 3, "Four Walls and a Roof," but he did not pee his pants. This is the earliest reference I found:

He did not.  It was just something Mrs. Pootel said and I thought it apt and amusing.  Didn't realize his character development would pretty much start and end with 'pee-pants', and I think editorgrrl is right, they're reminding us of his existence now so we'll care when he gets bit.  Soon. 

[Iguessnot]

It was with Morgan’s knife, though, which wolfie wouldn’t have gotten ahold of if they weren’t fighting right next to him.

 

This also explains why Denise didn’t do anything while wolfie was getting out of his bonds. He would have gutted her like a fish if she tried anything.

 

And Morgan, Morgan, Morgan - you could have at least tied his hands behind his back. Some duct tape around the arms, perhaps. Make it harder for him to make a move. I know you can handle him (when you’re actually paying attention), but if you’re gonna leave a defenceless person like Dr. Denise with him, take some precautions, dammit.

 

 

 

I thought we call him Father Pee Pants because he did already pee his pants in terror at least once. But now I can’t remember when that happened or if it happened at all.

 

No that doesn't explain why she didn't do anything. She should have been beating him with Morgan's stick.

 

I have another major problem with the wolfie incarceration. Despite Carol asking last episode who Morgan had in that cage, the wolfie was not caged AT ALL. He was in the basement of an unfinished house with only the front door locked. The house was full of unbarred windows. We know a house has a rear exit. We see from Carol's fake out scene that there is plenty of heavy equipment he could use to bust a window since he has freedom of movement and hands out in front. When a show of this caliber starts producing this kind of junk, it's time to wrap up.

 

I guess Fear of the Walking Dead was an omen of writing to come.

[JackONeill]

Probably, she was carried around in a pouch for the past 2 seasons and they had a stroller for her in ASZ.

Actually Judith not freaking out under the sheet is probably the most believable thing about the situation. She's been a quiet baby from the beginning, is used to being carried like that and covered up and probably very used to the sound/smell of Walkers by now.

You know, Judith is probably the healthiest human around. She's been exposed to so much muck and germs and whatever that she'll probably never get a cold or the flu or anything. She'll live forever - if someone can keep the Walkers and idiot humans away from her

[JackONeill]

I jumped up and did the happy dance when Carol finally got butt-slammed.

 

Sure, the Wolf needs to die and I hope Morgan is the one to kill him.  

I'm starting to think the Wolf might be the new hero of the bunch. Seriously. He's somewhat witty. He's stealthy. And he's cleaner, by a mile, than Daryl. Just my random Monday afternoon thoughts.

[NoWillToResist]

I'm starting to think the Wolf might be the new hero of the bunch. Seriously. He's somewhat witty. He's stealthy. And he's cleaner, by a mile, than Daryl. Just my random Monday afternoon thoughts.

 

But the teeth....*shudder*.  ;)

[rab01]

I'm starting to think the Wolf might be the new hero of the bunch. Seriously. He's somewhat witty. He's stealthy. And he's cleaner, by a mile, than Daryl. Just my random Monday afternoon thoughts.

If y'all are disappointed in the changes to Morgan since he became a regular, just wait until you see what happens with Wolf.

[Nashville]

You know, Judith is probably the healthiest human around. She's been exposed to so much muck and germs and whatever that she'll probably never get a cold or the flu or anything. She'll live forever - if someone can keep the Walkers and idiot humans away from her

S'truth. If there's anything at all to "That which does not kill you makes you stronger", Judith is frikkin' Supergirl by now.

[AngelaHunter]

But the teeth....*shudder*.  ;)

 

OMG, yes. I guess he hasn't been brushing,  flossing and using white strips regularly like everyone else.

[paigow]

OMG, yes. I guess he hasn't been brushing,  flossing and using white strips regularly like everyone else.

Not that I am interested in him...but lame forehead cattle brand should be a deal breaker before getting to bad teeth.

[CletusMusashi]

He did not.  It was just something Mrs. Pootel said and I thought it apt and amusing.  Didn't realize his character development would pretty much start and end with 'pee-pants', and I think editorgrrl is right, they're reminding us of his existence now so we'll care when he gets bit.  Soon. 

Of course we'll care.

And there will be much rejoicing!

S'truth. If there's anything at all to "That which does not kill you makes you stronger", Judith is frikkin' Supergirl by now.

She must be. She doesn't have glasses.

[Bec]

No that doesn't explain why she didn't do anything. She should have been beating him with Morgan's stick.

Wouldn’t that entail getting the stick without getting gutted first? That might be a tall order for Dr. Denise. I guess you can make the argument that she could have at least tried. But I think it makes sense for her character that what she did try was to talk the wolf out of killing them, as dumb as it seems in hindsight.

[JBody]

But the teeth....*shudder*. ;)

Yeah, that dude needs major dental work. Better ask Dr. Denise to read up on it.