S10.E18: Jill's Special Delivery

[graefin]

It is certainly possible to miss a breech presentation both on abdominal and vaginal exam. Even an experienced midwife or doctor will miss it on occasions; I certainly have.  However, Jill had several big red flags that should've called for further assessment.  First off, she was HUGE, while it is possible to accurately predict a baby's size by physical exam alone, it is always a good idea to get an ultrasound to try to confirm it.  Most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound a few weeks before her due date to try to better assess the baby's size and the breech would've been picked up then.

 

Next, when someone goes overdue, there is a risk of placental malfunction which can even lead to stillbirth.  One sign is decreased amniotic fluid around the baby which is why most practitioners would've gotten an ultrasound once Jill went a week or so overdue.  Once again, the breech would've been found,

If the breech had been caught at an earlier date, might it have been possible to do a version at that point, thus increasing the odds that Jill could have had the home birth she wanted?

[JoanArc]

 

It is not the situation most women have experienced, where you are hooked up to a continuous monitor (the safety and efficacy of which, incidentally, has not yet been proven), in bed, not allowed to eat or drink, with a nurse that has 10 other patients in various stages of labor, monitoring them all via screens at the nursing station,

 

As a nurse, I gotta say this is not remotely true. At all.

 

I fully support Jill's right to pop out a baby in a birthing tub while the Duggar Family Orchestra plays the blood song, but she's not allowed to pretend hat everything would've gone hunky dory if she hadn't gotten major medical attention. Pretty much everything that went wrong can be attributed to crappy attendants and Jill's judgement/attitude. I'm really glad she'll never get the chance to 'help' other women.

[GEML]

I think everyone knows I'm a full advocate for midwives and home births, but Jill made some choices here that simply weren't smart ones when put together collectively. Having worked closely with midwives myself with my own overdue baby, I know it didn't have to be this way if only Jill had done some things differently. It's quite possible that the baby could have been turned if they had known about it before the water broke, for instance. And taking castor oil likely contributed to the meconium. There was no big wrong here. I certainly don't think Jill is a stupid woman. But she made small decision after small decision of zero intervention during the process, that resulted in that outcome that she wanted the least - full intervention at the end.

Edited May 9, 2015 by GEML

[Joe Jitsu913]

I live in Boston Ma with the best healthcare anywhere in the world, with doctors from Harvard, no less. I also have given birth multiple times. I know what I'm talking about with deciding on a college educated healthcare system for labor and delivery than Jill Duggars non educated mid wife approach. For my family and me there is no other choice.

Exactly. I live in the suburbs of Boston and wouldn't want to have healthcare anywhere else...with UMASS right nearby by my home in the case of an emergency. It's too bad that the Duggars looks down upon higher education when given the opportunity Jill could have become a real CNM or nurse instead of a "Gothard approved midwife ".

Edited May 9, 2015 by Joe Jitsu913

[Fostersmom]

My oldest nephew flipped a couple times while my sister was pregnant. When my sister first got the hospital, the nurse examined her and said he wasn't breech. By the time the labor progressed to the doctor coming stage, he looked at the chart and demanded an ultrasound, and yep, he was breech. That led to an emergency c-section. It was probably 4 or 5 hours after them getting to the hospital. She looked about as big as Jill, but she weighed 98 pounds when she got pregnant and gained 52 pounds during the pregnancy. Granted, she was a dumbass 17 year old who got pregnant on purpose and she had to be on bed rest for the last month and a half for low amniotic fluid and everyone kept taking food upstairs to her when she'd call for something to eat. It was like we were fattening up a cow! LOL! Also didn't help her doctor kept harping at her to gain more weight until my mom finally pointed out she had ready gained like 45 pounds, half her original body weight. Jill was probably 110 pounds to start and looked like she gained at least 40, if not more. 

 

I did find it interesting Michelle's THs mentioned numerous times she warned Jill to not doctor herself or rely on the things she wanted to turn out all okay. As clueless as Michelle can be, I think she had no delusions that Jill was going to get the fairy tale birth of her dreams and she knew Jill would push it to the limit like she did. My guess is she thinks the same thing about Anna too. 

 

I liked how excited Jill's buddies were when Jill and Dilly pulled in. They all raced to the door to see their mom. 

 

I know Josie's behavior in her THs has been discussed, but after seeing this episode, I'm wondering if the interview her at night. She seemed exhausted and a little bit slap happy in her THs. 

[Micks Picks]

wow I'm glad to see a positive comment about Michelle here.  And I agree that Michelle does have some concerns about her daughter's or daughter-in-law's lack of care during labor.  Michelle had a lot of kids wasn't relying on only midwives or her own "feelings" for advise on everything.

[GEML]

We've discussed it in other forums, but there is one thing Michelle does well - breed and bear children. And this is a woman who has had quite a few c-sections (including her second pregnancy) and then went on to have very successful home births. I know we all kind of make fun of her for thinking she might have another or being delusional when doctors talk and she just brushes them off, but she IS really good at pregnancy and delivery. You can understand why she thinks she can beat the odds. Plus, she's never been an idiot about medical intervention. It's the one area of her life that she does take seriously.

[Fuzzysox]

Sheesh watching it for the third time and just noticed Jessa all over Bin at the bouncy house. He didn't seem too happy about it either.

[MichaelaRae]

I know babies can turn during labor. But I simply cannot believe a nearly 10 lber managed to do after the water broke and that the extreme discomfort, let alone alien belly bulging, that would have been the result of said fetus maneuvering would not have been picked up by Jill herself and/or experienced midwives. Add to that how overdue she was (and since she was pregnancy testing religiously - pun intended - you gotta figure she knew the conception date pretty well), the lack of progression of labor after her water breaking and I think Occam's Razor can be applied pretty easily here: the baby was breech and had been for at least some period of time BEFORE her water broke. (And for the record, I am very pro-home birth and/or births with as few medical interventions as necessary. The key part being NECESSARY.)

Edited May 10, 2015 by MichaelaRae

[Chai]

We've discussed it in other forums, but there is one thing Michelle does well - breed and bear children. And this is a woman who has had quite a few c-sections (including her second pregnancy) and then went on to have very successful home births. I know we all kind of make fun of her for thinking she might have another or being delusional when doctors talk and she just brushes them off, but she IS really good at pregnancy and delivery. You can understand why she thinks she can beat the odds. Plus, she's never been an idiot about medical intervention. It's the one area of her life that she does take seriously.

yes, which is why I was surprised she didn't want the best medical help available to her daughter and grandchild. Leaving it to a midwife, and a home birth is something out of my comfort zone.  Again, no disrespect to midwives, its not my thing. But when you really really go through child birth and you could tell Jill had a huge baby in there, wouldn't you tell her to keep an open mind to an epidural/pain relief? If nothing else to spare your daughter agony? That's my thinking. 

There are so many things that can go wrong anyway. Not having the best medical care when you are millionaires and living like its the 1800's is tragic in my opinion. After all Jill had her wisdom teeth out. Why didn't she lay down on the couch and have JB pull them out with a pair of pliers?  No she went to a dentist and had it done.She did take pain relief after  her teeth were pulled, so what's the difference? LOL!

[Cherrio]

Maybe wearing "night clothes" leads to sexual thoughts?  And wearing regular, daytime clothes keeps your mind out of the gutter?  Maybe they don't want the film crew to see them (or their kids) in night attire? Just guesses. I really don't know.

I bet flannel pajama's get Pete's Pistol cocked and ready.      The Duggars always look dirty, unkempt and their beds sometimes have no sheets.   Oh, they must be too busy praying.

        I am going to develop and sell "Devotional Shower Gel".   Pray, shit and shower.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Cherrio

[doodlebug]

 

 

 

 

My oldest nephew flipped a couple times while my sister was pregnant. When my sister first got the hospital, the nurse examined her and said he wasn't breech. By the time the labor progressed to the doctor coming stage, he looked at the chart and demanded an ultrasound, and yep, he was breech

 

Don't you think it is also possible that the nurse who initially examined your sister was simply mistaken and the baby was breech all along?  Having examined tens of thousands of laboring women over 30 years, I can attest it is easy to do.  And, logically, it is far more likely that the baby was breech from the start than that he somehow managed to make a 180 degree turn between contractions.  It is very, very uncommon for a baby to make a major change in presentation during labor itself, especially a first baby who is larger than average and has little amniotic fluid surrounding him.

Edited May 10, 2015 by doodlebug

[bigskygirl]

Okay...The what Jill did or did not do when she was in labor has been beaten to death, brought back to live and beaten to death again. This thread is for what happen on the episode and is not for repetitive speculation on what was not shown on the show. Any post on this one subject will be deleted from now on. Also, please bring your personal stories to the Small Talk thread. Thank you

[ChicksDigScars]

So. I'm rewatching the "extended version" of the episode, with the bouncy house birthday party for Josie and Jordyn thrown in, and it was appalling how much they talked about how big Josie was, and how they can believe how Josie is five, and Josie this, and Josie that. Oh, and by the way, Jordyn is here, too.  That poor little girl. Overshadowed for her entire life, having to share a birthday week (8 days apart, actually) with Josie, the one child who actually gets attention from her mother. Well, sort of.  It was REALLY ticking me off how the entire narrative of the birthday party scenes was about Josie, and the mentions that Jordyn got were almost an afterthought. Kind of like the "find-a-crib" scenes. The crib was purchased for Jenny, and passed to Josie, supposedly. I guess Jordyn slept on the fucking floor. 

 

At least Jordyn seemed to get an equal cake and signage at the actual party, but the TH's were all about Josie.

[JenCarroll]

I'd like to "like" this about 50 more times.

[JasminePhyllisia]

Haven't watched this show in ages, but tuned in to this one. Were those fruit platter cakes for the two youngest girls? I was impressed, as I remember the Duggars aren't an especially nutrition-minded bunch.

So Jill's knees were blurred out for the show, but she had her skirt hiked up while some guy did her pedicure? Weird.

[MarysWetBar]

My thoughts in no particilar order cus that was a disjointed mess of a show:

*MEchelle baby training babies. As if anyone in their right mind would hand Josephine McLickerson a real baby. Howsabout show those girls how to brush their own hair and how to ride a bike or maybe look at a book of flower types so they don't end up like Jessa someday.

*Jill taking about her mother- "She COULD get pregnant again. That would be cool." Ugh

*Jill with hussy red polish on her toes. Derrikdillards pedicure. He was definitely aroused. His face ..dear God ..NO! Possible foot fetish?

*M&JB montage...sickening. All it needed was some Phil Collins drumtrack. Reminded me of Will Ferrills snl sketch...The Lovers.

*Derrickdillard needs to just stop. I hope he is only awkward cus of the cameras. Cus his smooching style is awful. Jilly all closed lips. I'm embarrassed FOR them.

*Derrickdillards DAD! HELLOOOO HANDSOME! Only part of show that piqued my interest.

*FUinternet moment...we will encourage our kids to do whatever they want to do. Maybe college? Yay Derrick!

*We need more Dan and Cathy. Dan is hilarious and noticed he had one of the kids up on his shoulders. Derrick is actually good with kids too. They seem very comfortable with little ones.

*The scene with Derrick reading the journal entry from his Dad...ok...i cried. There. .its out. Now you know. I am human afterall.

*I couldn't stand to have that many people around when i was labouring.

*JB- "We been tryin but ain't anything happenin! Dunno if its her plumbing or mine." Jill looked stunned when he said it. Lucky the nausea it likely caused didn't send her into labour.

Edited May 10, 2015 by MarysWetBar

[andromeda331]

My favorite part was still how happy Cathy was when Israel was born, she looked so excited. A second close was the journal entry and when Derick realized it was his dad's handwriting.

[becca3891]

I thought the same thing; Derick looked as though he was REALLY enjoying himself during the pedicure and I wanted to see if his jeans were getting a bit tight. :) I also thought it was very strange that Jill wouldn't have requested the woman pedicurist for herself and the man for Derick. Boob was probably furious when he watched the episode, saw that his precious Jill had defrauded the guy doing her feet, especially when her knees had to get blurred, and then felt helpless because he's no longer Jill's authority.

 

Not at all to be snobbish, because you don't have to go to college to be well educated, but it really hit home in the University of Oklahoma segment how sheltered Jill is, and how foreign the concept of college was to her. Even going to a basketball game is not something the Duggars would ever do, because of the defrauding cheerleaders and also the fact that Gothard discourages organized sports, as they're not God-honoring enough.

 

Finally, I almost lost my dinner when they recapped Boob and J'Chelle's worst PDA moments. I'd forgotten Boob said "Does that turn you on?" at the mini golf place. Disgusting and very, very far from modest. For the love of god, show us your precious, private knees and leave the bedroom talk in the bedroom. Josh and Anna's barbs about it were gold, though.

[Zahdii]

I'd forgotten Boob said "Does that turn you on?" at the mini golf place. Disgusting and very, very far from modest...Josh and Anna's barbs about it were gold, though.

 

Wait.  What?  JB actually said that?  I've heard about the mini golf course gross out PDA, but haven't seen it for myself.  Is there a video out there somewhere?  Because whether he was saying that to his wife or his daughter and future son in law, it's gross either way.  Even more gross than the dry humping I'd heard of while the parents gleefully announced something to the effect of "You can't do this until you're married!"

 

While I'm at it, is there footage about Josh and Anna sounding off on the above scene?  It would give me great hope for them if they not only recognized that JB&M's behavior was out of line, but were willing to snark on it on film.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Zahdii

[BitterApple]

At some point during the episode Josh and Anna did a TH about Boob's PDA. Both of them were being sarcastic and snarky, they clearly thought it was gross. I can't remember if it was in the beginning, middle or end though.

[Fuzzysox]

After watching the epi three times I took a close look at Derick's baby picture and little Rick James has his nose otherwise not much else.

 

Cathy being in the delivery room was really special for her. I'm glad she was invited to meet her grandson and hold him.

Edited May 10, 2015 by Fuzzysox

[JenCarroll]

Michelle has stated (although I don't remember exactly when), "Feet aren't sexy." And obviously she knows all about what's not sexy, having married Howdy Doody there. So barefoot ladies and mixed-sex pedicures are A-ok in Duggarland where no one has ever heard of a foot fetish. Or possibly any kind of fetish.

[JasminePhyllisia]

Haven't watched this show in ages, but tuned in to this one. Were those fruit platter cakes for the two youngest girls? I was impressed, as I remember the Duggars aren't an especially nutrition-minded bunch.

So Jill's knees were blurred out for the show, but she had her skirt hiked up while some guy did her pedicure? Weird.

 

Funny story about why I was curious to watch this one, I was recently on a road trip with my mom and she was reading (am I allowed to mention People mag here?) the article about Jill's long delivery.  I've watched the show on occasion over the years, but she knows nothing about the Duggars.  While I was driving she provided a running commentary and said she felt sorry for poor Jill, this being her first.  She mentioned that Jill's mother was there helping during the home phase of the delivery.  "What about her husband?" I asked.  "He sang hymns," she replied.

Edited May 10, 2015 by JasminePhyllisia

[zenme]

Oh my! I delivered both of my children naturally, and I think I would have tossed DH out of the 3rd floor window if he attempted to sing hymns while I was dealing with contractions. To each his own, I guess!

[becca3891]

Zahdii, JB was talking to Michelle when he said "Does this turn you on?" but Jessa and Ben were right there and it was for their benefit. Yuck. The Josh and Anna talking heads were somewhere near the halfway point of the two hour Jill birth special, I believe.

[Bella]

Snark the show, not each other.

 

You all know better.

[becca3891]

To the moderator, did you delete the posts you seemed to be referring to? Without them, it's confusing to see a message like that.

[Mrsjumbo]

After watching the epi three times I took a close look at Derick's baby picture and little Rick James has his nose otherwise not much else.

Cathy being in the delivery room was really special for her. I'm glad she was invited to meet her grandson and hold him.

Wow, you are made of stronger stuff than I am! I didn't even make it through once, & even though it has been on again, I can't get myself to watch this foolishness more than once per episode.

[frenchtoast]

If you see a mod note, please don't discuss it or argue it in topic. We do try to be discreet. If you have a question, please ask a mod via PM. You can find the mod team in the pinned topic. 

[Darknight]

It means that 1.0% of the nation's television households were watching the show.

Thanks. That's horrible ratings

[CarolMK]

I finally watched this episode last night. It would have been a lot better condensed down to one hour and if it had a LOT less Michelle featured in it. 

[BitterApple]

I give props to anyone who rewatched to catch details that were missed earlier. That is truly the definition of taking one for the team.

Given the amount of filler footage I'm wondering what the original plan was for the episode and how much was scrapped after Jill's delivery turned into a shitshow.

[graefin]

I thought I saw Debbie Query at home with Jill pre-hospital. The licensed lay midwife was not visible at all. Then in the hospital neither of them was shown--just this Rachel person. If they were not there, why would Jill choose to exclude them?

[bigskygirl]

Posts about Jill did not do or should have done while she was in labor have been deleted after the May 9th mod note about this very subject. Episode threads are for discussions about what happened on the show, not to speculated on what a person should have, could have, etc. etc. outside the show. This one topic has been beaten to death. Time to close the barn door and move on to what happened on the this one episode. Any questions or concerns, please feel free to send a PM to one of the mods. Any further speculation posts not related to the what was shown on the show will be deleted. Thank you.

[cmr2014]

 

Given the amount of filler footage I'm wondering what the original plan was for the episode and how much was scrapped after Jill's delivery turned into a shitshow.

A lot of people seem to feel this way, but I really can't imagine how much more of Jill's labor a human being could have been expected to watch -- labor is not particularly riveting television. Unless Jill had given birth on the toilet, or at the Mexican restaurant (and I'm sure that everyone at TLC had their fingers crossed), I don't know what else we could have seen. I think that the hospital birth gave them more usable footage than a home birth

 

The whole thing was just a shitshow, and it's unfortunate that Jill has no sense of modesty or privacy and thought that this would be a wonderful opportunity to demonstrate something about Jesus or Gothard or babies or whatever. There is simply nothing that is private or personal in their world: tiresome schmoopy-laden conversations between lovers, a young couple's first kiss, the birth of a baby, the loss of a baby, etc. I suppose we should all be grateful that they aren't filming the conception -- although we did get that horrifying visual of JB dry humping J'chelle on the putt-putt golf course.

 

I hope that Jill (and Derick) learned something from this, and that Jessa did, too, but I doubt it.

[CofCinci]

How much does Venessa's house go for?

[lookeyloo]

cmr2014 - that's it!  Forget modesty, those people have no sense of PRIVACY!!!!!  Even covered neck to ankle, to be modest, you are right - nothing private or personal in their world.  

[GEML]

It's been shown that children who grow up in dormitory style housing either don't have a sense of privacy, or have an obsessive sense of it. They are taught to think of themselves as we and not I. This is highly unusual today, but the Duggars would bear this out.

[truthtalk2014]

My thoughts in no particilar order cus that was a disjointed mess of a show:

*MEchelle baby training babies. As if anyone in their right mind would hand Josephine McLickerson a real baby. Howsabout show those girls how to brush their own hair and how to ride a bike or maybe look at a book of flower types so they don't end up like Jessa someday.

*Jill taking about her mother- "She COULD get pregnant again. That would be cool." Ugh

*Jill with hussy red polish on her toes. Derrikdillards pedicure. He was definitely aroused. His face ..dear God ..NO! Possible foot fetish?

*M&JB montage...sickening. All it needed was some Phil Collins drumtrack. Reminded me of Will Ferrills snl sketch...The Lovers.

*Derrickdillard needs to just stop. I hope he is only awkward cus of the cameras. Cus his smooching style is awful. Jilly all closed lips. I'm embarrassed FOR them.

*Derrickdillards DAD! HELLOOOO HANDSOME! Only part of show that piqued my interest.

*FUinternet moment...we will encourage our kids to do whatever they want to do. Maybe college? Yay Derrick!

*We need more Dan and Cathy. Dan is hilarious and noticed he had one of the kids up on his shoulders. Derrick is actually good with kids too. They seem very comfortable with little ones.

*The scene with Derrick reading the journal entry from his Dad...ok...i cried. There. .its out. Now you know. I am human afterall.

Yea!  I did as well.  Thought I was PMSing or something.  Cathy is just so much more skilled at being a kind and loving parent.  You know MEchelle was hating it.  You just know it.  She has no idea how to give love and attention to anyone but MEchelle or Boob. 

[truthtalk2014]

So. I'm rewatching the "extended version" of the episode, with the bouncy house birthday party for Josie and Jordyn thrown in, and it was appalling how much they talked about how big Josie was, and how they can believe how Josie is five, and Josie this, and Josie that. Oh, and by the way, Jordyn is here, too.  That poor little girl. Overshadowed for her entire life, having to share a birthday week (8 days apart, actually) with Josie, the one child who actually gets attention from her mother. Well, sort of.  It was REALLY ticking me off how the entire narrative of the birthday party scenes was about Josie, and the mentions that Jordyn got were almost an afterthought. Kind of like the "find-a-crib" scenes. The crib was purchased for Jenny, and passed to Josie, supposedly. I guess Jordyn slept on the fucking floor. 

 

At least Jordyn seemed to get an equal cake and signage at the actual party, but the TH's were all about Josie.

I did not see the extended version- however, the whole crib thing pissed me off to no end. Why is it ALWAYS about Miracle?  Why did they not include Jennifer or Jordyn in the search?  You are right.  Jordyn was probably sleeping on the steps of the Little Rock house with her head stuck in a stair railing.  Why did Jordyn and Jennifer not get to accompany Miracle to the Dullard house to give the crib?  Because they don't give a crap about them!  That's why.  I wish some nice family would come kidnap those kids  (not really- so don't be calling the FBI on me) and give them the attention they deserve.  It might actually be weeks before Bitchchelle even noticed. 

 

I have a feeling that Jennifer and Jordyn are going to grow up with great resentments for Miracle Josie and MEchelle. Waiting for the day they act out and tell someone to F off!  

Edited May 12, 2015 by truthtalk2014

[AnnieGirl]

#Jumbilee

Pop up version Tweet. Watch for it! Ha!

[lookeyloo]

Just watched this episode. There were some sweet moments - when Cathy gave Derrick her diary pages. Generally agree with everyone's comments. Jill's doctor is a hunk!!

[NikSac]

I am watching a rerun of this episode. I don't care for Jill. She acts like such a smug know it all, when in reality, she doesn't know anything at all. I find her very annoying.

 

Same here. At one point I actually wondered if she made up the whole "meconium staining" comment just so she could use a big midwife-y word.

[Readalot]

Is it sad that when they were showing the baby shower I thought I was watching a rerun of the bridal shower? Same host and location right? And less than a year apart.

[allonsyalice]

yeah, same host and location, at venessa the midwifes??? house.

[NikSac]

Is it sad that when they were showing the baby shower I thought I was watching a rerun of the bridal shower? Same host and location right? And less than a year apart.

 

I don't care enough to watch it again, but I wonder if they even re-used some of the decorations. Too bad the poor guests couldn't re-use their gifts for both.