S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[Constantinople]

The Unsullied are trained to fight with spears on the battlefield, not for close up battles in an enclosed city. Over the course of history, lots of armies have been steadily worn down and defeated by guerrilla armies who hide in populated areas where they have the support of the local people. Think of the defeat of the U.S. military by the guerrilla tactics of the Vietcong in Vietnam.

In the S3 premiere, Missandei said about the Unsullied that "Every day they drill from dawn to dusk until they have mastered the short sword, the shield, and the three spears."

[RadiantAerynSun]

Jaime and several other characters have described how crazy he was at the end, so I believe that he was going nuts killing people until Jaime took him out. But to compare that to the guy who hated violence and loved singing described by Barristan Salmy makes me wonder if something happened between those two points (maybe he was poisoned with some kind of psychotropic drug?). Or maybe he was just one of those psychos who liked killing AND singing!

 

As some have said, Aerys (Dany's father) was the Mad King. I do truly believe he was mad as we have had that confirmed by multiple parties on every side. Rhaegar was Aerys' son (and Dany/Viserys' brother) better known as "Kidnapper" of Lyanna (tho Littlefinger seemed skeptical), wife of the late Elia Martell, but who Selmy seems to think was an all around good guy (he talked fondly of him back in season 3 soon after he appeared in Essos). I kind of suspect Selmy might know more about the whole Lyanna/Rhaegar debacle, but now I guess we may never know. I'm pretty sure he's a goner, although Grey Worm I hold some small sliver of hope for (DAMMIT! He and Missandei were supposed to live happily ever after!!! Thanks a lot, Show!)

 

 

I thought it looked like people they were targeting had the mark carved into their heads.

Not Loras, because despite what Cersei and Sparrow said, rank does matter. But some of the guys caught in the brothel were getting carved.

So I think it's a forcible recruitment technique. Which story is easier to tell? "One day I was minding my own business, offending the Seven Gods by committing sinful acts of sodomy, and a bunch of crazy people broke into the room and put this on my head..." or?

"I have become very religious..." (because if I try to live the same life I did before, I have no idea what these loons are going to do with their knives next. And I have been meaning to go to church more...)

 

I think there is some confusion between Loras (Tyrell) and Lancel (Lannister). Lancel is who had the seven pointed star carved into his forehead, not as a punishment but seemingly as some sort of sign of his devotion or his rank within the Sparrows I guess? Loras was arrested but otherwise unscathed as far as we know. I do think Cersei knows not what she has unleashed... looks like Lancel may be one of the decision makers within the Faith Militant and that will probably end badly for Cersei (at last!) I'm surprised the Sparrow condones such violence, but I guess he did say sometimes it's messy when you lance(l) a boil.

 

 

It was nice of Cersei to do Arya a solid and send Meryn Trant to Braavos.

 

Oh yeah!!! Isn't he the one who killed (?) Syrio Forel. Hmm now I wonder if there will be some confrontation between Jaqen and Meryn in which we learn his secret identity actually IS Syrio!! I would love for that spitball to come true.

 

How many Unsullied are there? Hundreds and hundreds, right? Dany has lost what, 2 dozens?

 

There were 8000 when she left Astapor.

[kcbuckeye2]

CletusMusashi Today. 2:06 am said:

I thought it looked like people they were targeting had the mark carved into their heads.

Not Loras, because despite what Cersei and Sparrow said, rank does matter. But some of the guys caught in the brothel were getting carved.

So I think it's a forcible recruitment technique. Which story is easier to tell? "One day I was minding my own business, offending the Seven Gods by committing sinful acts of sodomy, and a bunch of crazy people broke into the room and put this on my head..." or?

"I have become very religious..." (because if I try to live the same life I did before, I have no idea what these loons are going to do with their knives next. And I have been meaning to go to church more...)

 

 

The person that was getting the star carved into his head was Lancel Lannister.  Everyone else that the Faith Militant came across was likely just beaten badly or cut up.  All of the Faith Militant had those stars on their foreheads. I would think the "sinners" that they came across in Littlefinger's establishment weren't deemed worthy enough to join.
 

[paigow]

Jon Snow might be the nephew of Dany. If this alternate parentage theory is true, does anyone still want to ship them? Also, if he was legitimized, his Iron Throne claim would trump Dany's. 

[annsterg]

I don't have a huge issue with Jon POSSIBLY being Dany's nephew prohibiting a relationship between them, because a) we've seen plenty of close relatives involved legitimately (no one seemed to think it was a bad idea -- other than it was ROBIN THE FREAK --  to have Sansa marry Robin, and they are first cousins) and b) not sure if Dany can have children due to what the witch did first season? If she can't, and she IS restored as ruler of the 7 kingdoms, they will have to come up with some way for someone to inherit...maybe Jon -- if he IS Targaryen spawn -- will be her designated successor vs her lover?

 

...and it sure looked to me like the gay men the Inquisition caught in that brothel were killed or severely damaged...

Edited May 4, 2015 by annsterg

[Constantinople]

And I thought Stannis would  be good news for Sansa but if you think about it, the man is RIGID when it comes to justice and doesn't really take into account, situations, ask Davos Seaworth's former fingers.   How will Stannis feel about Sansa, Lannister marrier

I doubt Stannis would hold Sansa's marriages against her because women rarely have a choice about whom they marry. Even Cersei got nowhere with Joffrey when she criticized Margaery for marrying Renly.

 

Regicide Co-Conspirator

Killing Joffrey can't be regicide since Stannis is the one true king. If anything, conspiring to murder a traitor is commendable and brave, and Stannis doesn't punish bravery, he rewards it.

 

witness to Aunt-Murdering

Stannis doesn't know about that.

 

Bolton Betrothed, Littlefinger intriguer, Stark.

See above re marriage. Sansa's just doing what her Uncle Littlefinger tells her to do. And if her Uncle takes her by armed guard to Winterfell and leaves here there, there's not much she can do about it.

Besides, Stannis wants a Stark in Winterfell so badly, he's willing to legitimize Jon Snow and make him Lord of Winterfell, even after Jon was elected Lord Commander.

[ihartcoffee]

Dany better figure out how to call Drogon back, because she just lost her Unsullied Army (RIP Grey Worm and Ser Barristan Selmy).

 

 

 

Too bad she's not a warg that can enter their minds and control them.  She needs the help about now!

 

 

Show has a pattern of making noble, lovable characters appear even more noble and lovable - right before killing them. Therefore when I saw Ser Barristan engage the Sons of the Harpy, I knew he was toast.

 

By the same pattern, I am quite scared for sweet, brave Shireen...I believe Stannis is done for as well.   I thoroughly enjoyed their scene together, although I got the chills hearing about Greyscale Barbie.

LMAO, and that is why I love this site!!  You don't get classics like that in the real world. 

 

And I agree about the shows pattern.  Nervous about what's to come!

[Deanie87]

One of my favorite parts of the episode was this conversation between Stannis and Shireen (paraphrased):

"I'm glad Im here even though Mother didn't want me to come."

"What makes you say that?"

"Mother said, 'I don't want you to come.'" Ha!

[Trichromatic]

Show has a pattern of making noble, lovable characters appear even more noble and lovable - right before killing them. Therefore when I saw Ser Barristan engage the Sons of the Harpy, I knew he was toast.

By the same pattern, I am quite scared for sweet, brave Shireen...I believe Stannis is done for as well.

 

 

Particularly as they made a point of highlighting that Brienne still has it in for Stannis for Remly's death. Though how she is going to face his entire army, I don't know.

[CouchPotatoNoLife]

Poor Ser Barriston. He certainly looked near death. What a warrior, such bravery and skill. He saved Grey Worm from a brutal death. Thank goodness for Daenerys that Jorah, Varys, and Tyrion are almost there. Also, Drogon is staying nearby. She needs to get him and her other dragons burn some of those masked butchers to a crisp. I bet they stop that bullshit instantly.

That is the difficult part you never know who is an innocent and who is an enemy.

 

I have a family member that served as infantry in Iraq. Basically according to him, most people were pleasant towards their face, but there was always the risk that once they turn around something might happen. Luckily he escaped his tour unscathed.

 

But lots of soldiers were hurt by ambushes, and especially by IEDs. 

 

Occupations are the toughest kind of campaign. the occupying soldiers (Dany is an occupying force) are almost always vulnerable while away from their base. They are also very easy to identify. Potential attackers/(in their minds) freedom fighters can attack and blend into the crowd once they have accomplished their task or start losing.

 

Based on the show

Meereen used to have 3 groups of people, slave masters, free men who werent rich enough to own slaves and of course the slaves.

 

That slave advisor dany had executed said he thought the harpys were mainly freemen because the masters were too cowardly and would pay freemen to do their dirty work. It also makes some since as often the middle class punches downwards throughout history.

 

the Slaves of course love dany, as she freed them. i suspect even after the execution they are her base.

Slave masters of course hate dany for obvious economic reasons. And probably some social reasons.

The suspect the former freemen depending on whether they were relatively well off or not would either hate or love dany. But I wouldnt be surprised if many of them hated dany as she is in effect the conqueror of their city.

 

If dany just randomly starts executing people, she will be immoral, and also rally all of the non-slaves against her.

Occupations are always tough. If Dany was smart she would just admit defeat and leave for westeros. In westeros she has a chance at not being seen as a conqeror. She could take the fortunes of the former masters to finance her campaign.

 

On the topic of sansa's situation

I think she is in a lot of trouble. Ramsey is cruel and sadistic. Also the chick he has been banging obviously is jealous of her and if you remember they hunted ramsey's other sidechick and had their hunting dogs kill her. I suspect because of sansa's status the sidechick is not that much of a threat to sansa., but ramsey sure is. Roose would stop ramsey from overly abusing sansa, but as his wife, they are going to be alone a lot. From previous seasons i can only imagine what sadistic shit ramsey gets his jollies from.

 

I suspect Ramsey's bastard status is the reason he is not well known outside of the north. Eg. Littlefinger's comment that it was weird that he did know of the reputation of a lord in westeros. This means that littlefinger might actually have little idea how cruel and illogical ramsey is. He knows Roose is evil and a bad guy but he also knows Roose is logical. Roose knows they need sansa. Bolton forces alone can not subdue the north if all of the other houses rally their forces against him. Ramsey thinks he can just intimidate the other houses and skin their lords in front of their heirs to make them pay taxes. Roose knows a marriage to sansa will help solidify his claim to the north. I fear ramsey is not that logical. I fear littlefinger has miscalulated.

 

I think littlefinger's original plan was to have sansa in winterfell as stannis' army took the castle and have stannis make her warden of the north and then for him to marry her. Based on their goodbye kiss and her stating that the next time they see each other she will be a married women made me think they definitely have a sexual relationship. that kiss was not a fatherly kiss and it was like she was inviting him to have an affair.  

 

Really touched by stannis' interaction with his daughter. Also based on this episode alone it is obvious that at least littlefinger doesnt think lyanna was kidnapped. I think the sand snakes are going to try to kill Mycella to set off a war. I think they wont tell doran about jaime because they dont want him increasing mycella's protection.

[Constantinople]

Jon Snow might be the nephew of Dany. If this alternate parentage theory is true, does anyone still want to ship them? Also, if he was legitimized, his Iron Throne claim would trump Dany's. 

 

Not if he's legitimized as Jon Stark.

 

But even if he's legitimized as Jon Targaryen, it's not a slam dunk.  Those who favor Dany's claim would point out that she had 2 Targaryen parents, but Jon only had 1, and that Dany was the daughter of a King and Queen, whereas Jon as the son of a Prince and Princess.  Plus there's the whole dragon thingy.  They're both a source of power, and a sign that she's not just a Targaryen, she's the Targaryen.

[islandgal140]

Tywin was right. Cersei is not as smart as she thinks she is. She's armed religious fanatics who will quickly turn on her. The crown is broke. The Tyrell's are going to unlikely to lend the Lanisters any money. The Iron Bank is calling in their loans. Cersei is petty and shortsighted. She was so concerned about Margaery's influence that Cersei set off a nuclear bomb when she only needed a targeted strike. If she wanted to keep more control over Tommen, she could have had him come to the small council meetings. The problem is that Cersei doesn't want to rule through Tommen; she just wants to rule.

 

Cersei is going to be hoisted by her own petard. 

 

 

I just don't know what to make of Littlefinger. He seemed genuine in everything he said to Sansa down in the tombs but knowing how he betrayed Ned, I can't shake the feeling that he's setting Sansa up for a hell of a fall. He seems so sure Stannis will defeat the Boltons and make Sansa Wardeness of WF; so what is in it for him? And if Stannis fails does he really believe Sansa will bend Ramsay to her will? While she's learned to play the game a bit, she's nowhere near being a puppet master. Petyr, the Boltons flay their enemies alive. Leaving her alone in WF seems like a terrible terrible idea. 

 

This probably doesn't mean much but I believe Littlefinger has been more forthright with Sansa than he has been with others. Color me shocked that he told her that Stannis would be launching an attack on Winterfell to rid them of Boltons.  That was freely volunteered. Littlefinger was as genuine as a man like he can be with Sansa. I could believe that he is trying not to outright lie to Sansa but is most likely not giving her all the information (i.e. Lyanna and Rhaegar), which some may view as a lie of omission. 

 

Say what you will about him but at this point, he seems to be the only player really, really playing the Game of Thrones.   All others are either pawns, jocking for position or like Cersei, playing short sighted checkers. Littlefinger is playing a looooonnnng game of chess.  He hasn't been forced to definitively pick a side yet like Varys and Tyrion who had to do so due to circumstances.  Littlefinger may very well in his heart of hearts back Dany. I think he believes Stannis can take the North from the Boltons but probably hesitates to believe that he can successfully attack King's Landing and wrest the crown from the Baratheons. 

 

I actually don't mind Littlefinger/Sansa but I was very disappointed to see him turn her over to the Boltons. One thing I will find unforgiveable is if LR knew of Ramsay's sadistic proclivities and married Sansa off to him anyway. I just wonder how he, being the collector of information he is, could not know about with the string of flayed men and atrocities Ramsey has left in his wake. That is a real slip up. 

 

I thought Ygritte told Jon "you know nothing Jon Snow" right before she died,  and that is why he had an odd look after the Red Witch said it.  Like she was taunting him with Ygritte's memory.

 

 

Not for nothing but Ygritte said that phrase at least 2-3 per every episode she was on. It was her "Dynamite" or "What you talking 'bout Willis" in a way.

Edited May 4, 2015 by islandgal140

[Winnief]

Jon Snow might be the nephew of Dany. If this alternate parentage theory is true, does anyone still want to ship them? Also, if he was legitimized, his Iron Throne claim would trump Dany's.

 

Not if he's legitimized as Jon Stark.

 

But even if he's legitimized as Jon Targaryen, it's not a slam dunk.  Those who favor Dany's claim would point out that she had 2 Targaryen parents, but Jon only had 1, and that Dany was the daughter of a King and Queen, whereas Jon as the son of a Prince and Princess.  Plus there's the whole dragon thingy.  They're both a source of power, and a sign that she's not just a Targaryen, she's the Targaryen.

 

I agree that the issue of succession vis a vis Jon is unclear and I doubt he even wants the throne anyway.  What I am certain of is that Jon is a dragon rider and will play a huge role in the coming war with the White Walkers.  Whether he (or Dany) are still alive at the end of that battle is a whole other question.

 

For the record, I really really don't like Dany/Jon for a lot of reasons, not just the incest but its not out of the realm of possibility considering Targaryen traditions and there *might* be a certain dynastic logic to it.  Of course the truth about Jon's parentage could also open up certain possibilities where the Stark sisters are concerned; marriage between first cousins in feudal medieval times was considered perfectly respectable and even fairly common. 

Edited May 4, 2015 by Winnief

[tricknasty]

I agree that the issue of succession vis a vis Jon is unclear and I doubt he even wants the throne anyway.  What I am certain of is that Jon is a dragon rider and will play a huge role in the coming war with the White Walkers.  Whether he (or Dany) are still alive at the end of that battle is a whole other question.

 

For the record, I really really don't like Dany/Jon for a lot of reasons, not just the incest but its not out of the realm of possibility considering Targaryen traditions and there *might* be a certain dynastic logic to it.  Of course the truth about Jon's parentage could also open up certain possibilities where the Stark sisters are concerned; marriage between first cousins in feudal medieval times was considered perfectly respectable and even fairly common. 

Regarding bolded text: Huh?

[meep.meep]

But even if he's legitimized as Jon Targaryen, it's not a slam dunk.  Those who favor Dany's claim would point out that she had 2 Targaryen parents, but Jon only had 1, and that Dany was the daughter of a King and Queen, whereas Jon as the son of a Prince and Princess.  Plus there's the whole dragon thingy.  They're both a source of power, and a sign that she's not just a Targaryen, she's the Targaryen.

 

And, she's the only Dragon left.  Remember:  "A dragon won't burn."  Both Viseyrous (or however you spell it)  and Jon Snow were shown getting burnt.  Being pureblood apparently isn't a guarantee.  Only Dany doesn't burn.

[annsterg]

And, she's the only Dragon left.  Remember:  "A dragon won't burn."  Both Viseyrous (or however you spell it)  and Jon Snow were shown getting burnt.  Being pureblood apparently isn't a guarantee.  Only Dany doesn't burn.

 

Are we really SURE of that now? Maybe the not-burning was a one time thing, only to get the dragon eggs to hatch. She certainly fled from her 2 imprisoned babies when they started shooting flames at her....like she was afraid of being burned.

 

And if Jon IS a Targaryen, the Stark blood is strong too, because he does not have the distinctive Targaryen coloring...

Edited May 4, 2015 by annsterg

[ulkis]

Even though I appreciated Jon Snow's strength of character in rejecting Melisandre, my first thought was "What's the use of having Ghost if he's not around when you need him?"

Does it really take much strength of character to reject Melisandre though? Yeah, she's hot, but she's also creepy as hell, which Jon knows/can see, and it's not like Jon can't go and find some brothel if he's really wants to get laid. That's why I was kinda disappointed he wasn't just like "that's a-okay there lady, no thanks" right away.

also Sansa's necklace kept distracting me because I kept thinking it looked like a peace sign.

Edited May 5, 2015 by ulkis

[paigow]

But even if he's legitimized as Jon Targaryen, it's not a slam dunk.  Those who favor Dany's claim would point out that she had 2 Targaryen parents, but Jon only had 1, and that Dany was the daughter of a King and Queen, whereas Jon as the son of a Prince and Princess.  Plus there's the whole dragon thingy.  They're both a source of power, and a sign that she's not just a Targaryen, she's the Targaryen.

Rhaegar (and any of his children) would be next in line after the Mad King. Dany has the pole position because she is currently the last surviving child of the Mad King. Personal flammability notwithstanding, even Varys would agree that Jon SnoGaryen wins by a nose.

[ulkis]

I can't picture Jon ever taking on the name Targaryen. He didn't even accept Stark, he won't accept that.

[paigow]

It's not like Jon can't go and find some brothel if he's really wants to get laid.

The Wildlings killed most-  if not all - of the Moles Town whores....so Jon does not have that many options. 

[Calamity Jane]

What did Littlefinger say about Jon's parentage?  I just remember him raising his eyebrows when Sansa said Lyanna had been kidnapped and raped. And what does the identify of Jon's mother have to do with anything?  I don't understand how that could affect the overall story. 

He could be an heir of the legitimate (Targaryean) king, same as Dany, if Lyanna and Rheagar (sp??) were married, as is being hinted in the last couple of episodes.  Thus Ice and Fire, both heirs to the Iron Throne.  

 

.DOH!!! I think I just figured it out.

If Jon is the son of Rhaegar (dragon) Targareon and Lyanna Stark (of Winterfell) that might be your Song of Ice and Fire. Royal blood, fire and ice- there has to be something bigger coming that will let him out of his Night's Watch oath.

 

That's the theory I'm going with.

Me, too, and I think it's the one that fits best with the Ice and Fire of the title. 

[Boudicea]

Not if he's legitimized as Jon Stark.

 

But even if he's legitimized as Jon Targaryen, it's not a slam dunk.  Those who favor Dany's claim would point out that she had 2 Targaryen parents, but Jon only had 1, and that Dany was the daughter of a King and Queen, whereas Jon as the son of a Prince and Princess.  Plus there's the whole dragon thingy.  They're both a source of power, and a sign that she's not just a Targaryen, she's the Targaryen.

 

That is not really how succession works, succession is always about the firstborn son, the throne is passed on from the firstborn son to the firstborn son. You just have to look at history for a good example. Edward the Black Prince died about a year before his father Edward III. Thus he was never a king, but when his father Edward III died the throne did not go to one of his brothers, the throne still went to the son (Richard II) of the Black Prince.

 

So Jon's claim would definitely be better then Dany's claim. But Jon is much more of a North man, he has too much Starkness to care about a throne in the South. I cant see him going around trying to raise an army to fight for his claim on the throne. Jon has much greater concerns he is about the person in the realm who cares about the coming fight with the white walkers. 

[ulkis]

I don't have a huge issue with Jon POSSIBLY being Dany's nephew prohibiting a relationship between them, because a) we've seen plenty of close relatives involved legitimately (no one seemed to think it was a bad idea -- other than it was ROBIN THE FREAK --  to have Sansa marry Robin, and they are first cousins) 

 

I know Game of Thrones does not strictly adhere to real ye olden times, and obviously the Targaryens don't give a crap about incest, but I just want to point out that in medieval times niece-nephew/uncle-aunt was a whole different bag of beans than first cousins. I think once in a while royal families were granted permission to marry a niece/nephew, but very very rarely. Meanwhile people got permission to marry their first cousins like candy, heh.

Edited May 4, 2015 by ulkis

[annsterg]

Lyanna and Rhaegar (however you spell that!) could not have been married as he was already married to Elia Martell. I am not a book reader but I think it was confirmed (maybe in discussions over at TWOP) that there is no divorce in Westeros...except perhaps for non-consummation (see Sansa and Tyrion).

 

But the relationship MIGHT have been consensual as is being hinted...

I know Game of Thrones does not strictly adhere to real ye olden times, and obviously the Targaryens don't give a crap about incest, but I just want to point out that in medieval times niece-nephew/uncle-aunt was a whole different bag of beans than first cousins. I think once in a while royal families were granted permission to marry a niece/nephew, but very very rarely. Meanwhile people got permission to marry their first cousins like candy, heh.

 

Richard III was planning on marrying his niece, Elizabeth, before he was killed at Bosworth....or so some say. And it was a major scandal.

Edited May 4, 2015 by annsterg

[ulkis]

Richard III was planning on marrying his niece, Elizabeth, before he was killed at Bosworth....

 

We don't know for sure, actually (I doubt it), but in any case, he had to publicly renounce rumors that he had any intentions of marrying Elizabeth because people were disgusted at the notion. And because it further made it seem (or confirmed, what have you) like he got rid of his nephews in order to secure his hold on the throne.

[iMonrey]

 

Interesting that neither last week nor this week have the Boltons shared that important tidbit for those considering lordship of Winterfell: that they know that Bran and Rickon were NOT killed by Theon.

 

Do they? Theon and the Iron Born know Bran and Rickon escaped but I'm not sure the Boltons do, unless Theon confessed to Ramsey. I don't remember him doing so though.

 

It seems awfully stupid for Cersei to have empowered the Sparrows this way. If they can arrest the new Queen's brother based on nothing but an accusation (he wasn't doing anything sinful at the time of his arrest, unlike the two random unfortunates in the brothel), then there's nothing to stop the Sparrows from arresting Cersei herself. Her incestuous relationship with Jamie is just as well known as Loras's proclivities. I know what they're setting up here but it made Cersei look like a blithering idiot, and she's never been that.

 

I hate to say it but it feels like the Sand Snakes are about the last thing this show needs right now. It's already got way too much going on and Oberyen wasn't that major a character to devote so much time to his children's vengeance. Plus the expositiony speech by his daugher before she threw the spear through the guy's head was clunky and contrived. Stick with the characters we already know, show. You've got plenty of them already.

[izabella]

I hate to say it but it feels like the Sand Snakes are about the last thing this show needs right now. It's already got way too much going on and Oberyen wasn't that major a character to devote so much time to his children's vengeance. Plus the expositiony speech by his daugher before she threw the spear through the guy's head was clunky and contrived. Stick with the characters we already know, show. You've got plenty of them already.

 

I feel ripped off.  I loved Oberyn, and even though I loved Ellaria last season, I hate her and her sand snake daughters.  Losing Oberyn and gaining the sand snakes was not a fair trade, dammit!

[Le Renard]

I totally ship Brienne and Jaime. I'd like to imagine that Jaime looking at Tarth was a hint of things to come.

 

Littlefinger and Sansa's relationship is strange and interesting. It's not parental love, it's not romantic love, he kisses her yet he leaves her behind in a very dangerous situation. I wonder where this is going.

[RedheadZombie]

Jon Snow might be the nephew of Dany. If this alternate parentage theory is true, does anyone still want to ship them? Also, if he was legitimized, his Iron Throne claim would trump Dany's. 

 

Perhaps.  Marrying blood relatives was the norm for the Targaryens.  There seems to be shippers out there for Cersei and Jaime, so incest doesn't seem to be an impediment for some.

 

Are we really SURE of that now? Maybe the not-burning was a one time thing, only to get the dragon eggs to hatch. She certainly fled from her 2 imprisoned babies when they started shooting flames at her....like she was afraid of being burned.

 

In season one, episode one, didn't Dany walk into a extremely hot bath without burning?  I think her little maid came running to warn her it was too hot.  I think she was startled by her dragons, and horrified that they wished to harm her.  Plus, their teeth aren't far behind the fire.

 

That is not really how succession works, succession is always about the firstborn son, the throne is passed on from the firstborn son to the firstborn son. You just have to look at history for a good example. Edward the Black Prince died about a year before his father Edward III. Thus he was never a king, but when his father Edward III died the throne did not go to one of his brothers, the throne still went to the son (Richard II) of the Black Prince.

 

So Jon's claim would definitely be better then Dany's claim. But Jon is much more of a North man, he has too much Starkness to care about a throne in the South. I cant see him going around trying to raise an army to fight for his claim on the throne. Jon has much greater concerns he is about the person in the realm who cares about the coming fight with the white walkers. 

 

The world of Game of Thrones picks and choses which rules of medieval English monarchy they follow.  Calling the king "your grace", versus "Your Majesty", is one of the changes.  I don't think any monarchies allow an illegitimate person to succeed.

[Sakura12]

Dany walked into a hot bath, held one of the eggs that was on a fire and survived the burning of Khal Drogo all unscathed. I think it's safe to say she's immune to fire. Now being scared of being eaten by her dragon babies is a different story. 

[izabella]

I'm ready for Dany to release those dragons and let them run amok in Westeros, Essos, Southos and Northos.  This story is going nowhere, and has gone nowhere in 5 seasons.

[annsterg]

Do they? Theon and the Iron Born know Bran and Rickon escaped but I'm not sure the Boltons do, unless Theon confessed to Ramsey. I don't remember him doing so though.

 

Yep, Theon did tell Ramsey, who told dear old Dad, who then sent Locke (the psycho who cut off Jaime's hand) to track them...which he did (well, Bran at least) and found them at Craster's where Bran's party was being held...and Locke tried to snatch Bran but warged Hodor killed Locke instead. So the Boltons don't know if Bran and Rickon are still alive or where they are, but they know that Theon did NOT kill them.

[Dobian]

I'm hearing that Bran isn't even going to show up this season.  Guess they're saving him for season 6.

[One Tough Cookie]

Can't lie, I got a little teary when Stannis hugged Shireen.

 

And I am ridiculously fond of Bron.

Edited May 4, 2015 by One More Time

[marcee]

Maybe the "they won't burn" thing is only in relation to dragon fire. Dragon fire and regular fire may not be the same thing?

[Lady S.]

Ser Maryn might have his own problems, he's going to Braavos.

Syrio's about to get avenged. Smart move of Cersei to get Lord Muppet out of town where he has no idea what's happening to his heir. The rest of her moves here are as stupid and short-sighted as possible, and takes her petty vindictiveness to stupid new levels. If the Faith was so weak before that the Pope was dependent on Cersei for protection, I'd think most mothers of abominations would appreciate the status quo.

 

Hey, Bronn, Myrcella is Jaime's niece as well as his daughter. That's the magic of incest!

 

Interesting comment from Bronn when Jaime said he wanted to die in the arms of the woman he loves, he said she would want the same. No way he was talking about Cersei.

Wasn't he asking if she'd want the same? How would Bronn know Brienne is also a possible love interest? Sailing past Tarth was the Jaime/Brienne nod I noticed.

 

I'm no longer at all bothered by LF kissing Sansa, since he's left her with a far grosser alternative. But macking on her in the Stark crypts after what he did to that family feels very disrespectful. I feel like Uncle Brandon's vengeful ghost should have emerged from his tomb to finish what he started in that duel. 

 

Hey, Dany, ever thought of equipping your only Queensguard knight with a new suit of armor? Kinda feel like that would have come in handy, just sayin'. I thought of Jaime's description of Ser Barry as an artist painting in red and I'm really only annoyed he never got to do anything before now.

 

The Sand Snakes appear to be quite lethal. So 2 of them are Ellaria's daughters?  I don't think that Doran is going to let her near Myrcella, and now she knows Jamie is in Dorne.  I wonder if Bronn could take the Sand Snakes on?

Only the one who called her mama, Obara was describing Oberyn being an asshole to a different babymama, and the other girl looks East Asian. Remember, he has 8 daughters in all, so Ellaria could still have younger girls offscreen.

 

So, two separate scenes name-dropping Rhaegar, Stannis saying Ned wasn't the type to knock up a whore, and Melly sensing some undefined power in Jon and trying to get some behind Stan's back? Clunk, clunk, clunk, clunk go the anvils, folks.

 

Hey, Jaime, you can't chop Tyrion in half for murdering Tywin. Then he'd be the quarter-man and that just doesn't have the same ring to it. 

[bunnyblue]

 

Interesting that neither last week nor this week have the Boltons shared that important tidbit for those considering lordship of Winterfell: that they know that Bran and Rickon were NOT killed by Theon. Sure, since Locke never came back, they don't know where they are or if they are STILL alive, but Littlefinger is missing this critical info as he plots...

 

I don't think the Boltons want to share the bit of info with anyone, including Littlefinger. Arrange marriage aside, I don't think Roose trusts LF, considering he's reading his incoming and outgoing mail. They're having a hard time controlling the North as it is, and if they revealed that Bran & Rickon may be alive, I think that would make their precarious hold on the North even more difficult.

 

 

b) not sure if Dany can have children due to what the witch did first season? If she can't, and she IS restored as ruler of the 7 kingdoms, they will have to come up with some way for someone to inherit...maybe Jon -- if he IS Targaryen spawn -- will be her designated successor vs her lover?

 

I've wondered that too. Dany didn't recieve proper care after her miscarriage and the only person treating her was the witch, so I wouldn't be surprised if said witch hexed Dany or damaged her somehow so she can't have anymore children. I mean, that lady really hated Dany. We could have a situation like Elizabeth I and her successor James I. So, when/if Dany conquers the Seven Kingdoms and doesn't produce an heir would the throne pass to her (maybe) nephew Jon and his heirs? The way the show is suddenly bringing up Jon's parentage again and telling the history of Rhaegar and Lyanna has got me wondering about the line of succession.

[Constantinople]

Rhaegar (and any of his children) would be next in line after the Mad King. Dany has the pole position because she is currently the last surviving child of the Mad King. Personal flammability notwithstanding, even Varys would agree that Jon SnoGaryen wins by a nose.

 

 

That is not really how succession works, succession is always about the firstborn son, the throne is passed on from the firstborn son to the firstborn son. You just have to look at history for a good example. Edward the Black Prince died about a year before his father Edward III. Thus he was never a king, but when his father Edward III died the throne did not go to one of his brothers, the throne still went to the son (Richard II) of the Black Prince.

 

So Jon's claim would definitely be better then Dany's claim. But Jon is much more of a North man, he has too much Starkness to care about a throne in the South. I cant see him going around trying to raise an army to fight for his claim on the throne. Jon has much greater concerns he is about the person in the realm who cares about the coming fight with the white walkers.

The rules of inheritance aren't laws handed down by God or the Seven, they're justifications for why A is king now and why B should be king after. Succession works anyway people agree that it works, and they modify or change the rules as they go along.

Richard II's successor, Henry IV, is a case in point. Henry kicked Richard off the throne, thereby creating a vacancy. Suddenly it became very important that the next king claim his descent through the male line. By sheer coincidence, this benefited Henry, the son of Edward III's third son and disinherited a cousin, who was descended from a daughter of Edward III's second son. This was utter nonsense since Henry's claim ultimately derived from a woman, Henry I's daughter, and the Kings of England claimed the Kingdom of France via a daughter of the King of France. But consistency, as they say, is the hobgoblin of little minds.

There are numerous other queue jumpers: Henry I, Stephen, Henry II, John, Edward III (though it his mother's doing), Henry IV, Richard III, Henry VII, Mary or Elizabeth (take your pick since there's no coherent theory under which they're both legitimate other than "because"), and on and on. And these are just the ones who succeeded.

Renly thought he should be king, and told Ned Stark as much, even though Renly didn't doubt the legitimacy of Cersei's children at the time he spoke to Ned, and Renly's older brother Stannis still lived. If Stannis hadn't used a cheat code, Renly likely would have become king.

There's no reason why Daenerys or her supporters must acknowledge that the Mother of Dragons, born in the purple to pure Targaryen parentage, must acknowledge that a half-breed Nights Watchman has a superior claim to the Iron Throne.

Edited May 4, 2015 by Constantinople

[Lady S.]

Lyanna and Rhaegar (however you spell that!) could not have been married as he was already married to Elia Martell. I am not a book reader but I think it was confirmed (maybe in discussions over at TWOP) that there is no divorce in Westeros...except perhaps for non-consummation (see Sansa and Tyrion).

 

But the relationship MIGHT have been consensual as is being hinted...

Aegon the Conqueror married both of his sisters, so it's possible Rhaegar was trying to emulate his ancestor in bigamy, if not in sister-marriage. I don't think it really matters though, I doubt there's a marriage certificate floating around somewhere even if he found someone willing to perform a secret second marriage. What I think it really comes down to is Dany having more than one dragon, if she somehow learns Rhaegar has a surviving son and one of her dragons takes a liking to him, that should be enough for aunt and nephew to team up to melt some white walkers, which is where I think both their paths are heading toward more than the Iron Throne.

 

The world of Game of Thrones picks and choses which rules of medieval English monarchy they follow.  Calling the king "your grace", versus "Your Majesty", is one of the changes.  I don't think any monarchies allow an illegitimate person to succeed.

I think Your Majesty was a Tudor-era invention and Your Grace was the earlier title.

I thought it was "Rains of Castimere." Which seemed like the last song he'd be humming. But, of the two songs that they actually have, it sounded more like ROC than like "The Maiden and the Bear." Besides, if one of them is gonna go around humming TMATB, it's gonna be Jorah.

Fun fact: The Rains of Castamere was actually first heard on the show through Tyrion's whistling. 

 

Some interesting observations.

 

A lot of tonight's scenes went back to the first episode, the feather Sansa picks up was placed there by Robert. It has always been somewhat strange that someone as honorable as Ned Stark would have a bastard son while being married. Cat said that Ned once went South and came back with another womens child, so clearly Jon was born sometime during the rebellion, and it is also strange that Jon wouldn't just have stayed with his mother. Bastard children dont often grow up in the same household as the legitimate family, but perhaps it is a more common thing to do in Westeros or something?

The only other lord we've seen who had bastards and legit kids all living together was Walder Frey, who goes through wives like kleenex and can't even remember all his descendants' names. We know he has bastards living at the Twins because in his intro scene with Cat he calls one of his sons Bastard instead of his name. I think that geezer just likes to fill his house with offspring to display his virility. Roose/Ramsay I consider differently since Ramsay is, so far his only child, and was already around before Roose married Walda. We just learned Oberyn raised his bastards at court (after forcing one of them to choose between him and her mother), but he was never married and generally did whatever the fuck he wanted with his life. Ned was super into personal responsibility more than other lords (swinging the sword and such) so I imagine that was his stated rationale for keeping his bastard close, but the uniqueness of that situation and the total lack of any info about Jon's mother was I think the cause of the tension with Cat, making her feel insulted and maybe fearing Ned held more of a torch for his wartime love than the woman he married in his brother's place when they barely knew each other. (I guess they would have met at the infamous Harrenhal tourney, but she probably spent her time there with Brandon and he with Bobby B.)

 

As a refresher, here's the full exchange between Ned and Jon:

Ned Stark: There's great honor serving in the Night's Watch. The Starks have manned the Wall for thousands of years. And you are a Stark. You might not have my name, but you have my blood.

Jon Snow: Is my mother alive? Does she know about me? Where I am, where I'm going? Does she care?

Ned Stark: The next time we see each other, we'll talk about your mother. I promise.

 

The boy not only doesn't know his mother's name but whether she's dead or alive. I just don't see any justification for this secrecy unless Ned really had something to hide, Jon's pleas there are what make me think Ned's weird blood phrasing is important. Then in the very next scene Ned reveals to Robert that his babymama was named Wylla, which I feel is kinda rude to Jon if that really is the truth, to tell Robert while refusing to tell anyone else yet, including Jon. But Jon being Rhaegar's son by Lyanna gives Ned a personal reason to object to Robert's Targ-killing boner re: Dany and her unborn son, and gives him incentive to provide a cover story to Robert while denying his wife and children any info. And he promises to reveal the truth to Jon after Jon joins an organization where he has to swear away all family ties and pledge not to take part in the battles of the 7k, which should maybe make him at least as safe as the Targ who'd already sworn such vows, his great-great-uncle Aemon.

[DrSpaceman]

Well my earlier question has now been answered about what Tyrion has to offer Dany. She has basically no one to advice her now, she will need Tryion. And Mormont, too, most likley.

[Arnella]

Barristan Selmy and Grey Worm were total BAMFs and I hope they aren't dead but I suspect they are paving the way for Jorah and Tyrion.  Why can't we just have them ALL?

I'm really impressed with Sansa and how she is handling everything but I so hope that Stannis gets there before the wedding night!  BTW, I have NEVER wanted more Stannis on the screen before and I hope we don't see much more of him after he makes Sansa Wardeness of the North.  Love Shireen (how can you not?) but still can't stand Stannis - he just slows down every episode he is in!

[paigow]

 The rules of inheritance aren't laws handed down by God or the Seven, they're justifications for why A is king now and why B should be king after. Succession works anyway people agree that it works, and they modify or change the rules as they go along.

Renly thought he should be king, and told Ned Stark as much, even though Renly didn't doubt the legitimacy of Cersei's children at the time he spoke to Ned, and Renly's older brother Stannis still lived. If Stannis hadn't used a cheat code, Renly likely would have become king.

There's no reason why Daenerys or her supporters must acknowledge that the Mother of Dragons, born in the purple to pure Targaryen parentage, must acknowledge that a half-breed Nights Watchman has a superior claim to the Iron Throne.

  

Renly recognized himself as an usurper. He knew that all of Robert's "children" and Stannis ranked above him.

Maybe Jon Snow can launch attack ads citing Joffrey as what happens when brothers reproduce with sisters and Dany could end up the same.

[DrSpaceman]

The entire series is centered around the question of who has both claim to and control of the throne based on a combination of the right name, power, intelligence, the backing of the army, marriage and any number of factors.

A name alone does not give on power of the throne, even if they are in fact the "king", as we see now with Tommen and previously as well with Joffrey.

You main gain the throne but not keep it for long if you don't have the intelligence to maintain it, which is what Cersei and really Dany face now.

If you lose the backing of the iron bank its going to be tough as well

Any number of other factors.

And its not just a medieval problem or a problem based on monarchs and kings. Many believe the reason Rutherford B Hayes won the disputed election of 1876 was because of how he handled the aftermath of the election and assumed control, whereas Samuel TIlden, who really had more votes, did not.

[Potanical Pardon]

On the topic of sansa's situation

I think she is in a lot of trouble. Ramsey is cruel and sadistic. Also the chick he has been banging obviously is jealous of her and if you remember they hunted ramsey's other sidechick and had their hunting dogs kill her. I suspect because of sansa's status the sidechick is not that much of a threat to sansa., but ramsey sure is. Roose would stop ramsey from overly abusing sansa, but as his wife, they are going to be alone a lot. From previous seasons i can only imagine what sadistic shit ramsey gets his jollies from.

 

I suspect Ramsey's bastard status is the reason he is not well known outside of the north. Eg. Littlefinger's comment that it was weird that he did know of the reputation of a lord in westeros. This means that littlefinger might actually have little idea how cruel and illogical ramsey is. He knows Roose is evil and a bad guy but he also knows Roose is logical. Roose knows they need sansa. Bolton forces alone can not subdue the north if all of the other houses rally their forces against him. Ramsey thinks he can just intimidate the other houses and skin their lords in front of their heirs to make them pay taxes. Roose knows a marriage to sansa will help solidify his claim to the north. I fear ramsey is not that logical. I fear littlefinger has miscalulated.

 

I'm really hoping there's a twist here. We've all been trained and prepared to accept Ramsay as a physically more abusive monster than Joffrey (who is really the biggest coward ever, just loud and obnoxious. Tommen showed more balls even climbing up the Sparrow stairs as ill-prepared/equipped and timid as he was). We've been trained and prepared to also expect Sansa as the eternal victimized party favor. Ramsay has gotten what he always wanted...being legitimized, but he's still acting intimidated and "oh crap, did I mess up?" whenever he's himself and Roose corrects him like he's still in finishing school and just slurped soup. I feel like if Roose knows how valuable Sansa is and how important it is that she be safe and unharmed in case any of those legendary Stark loyalties notice something iffy and turn on the Boltons, then Ramsay should be on his best behavior and corrected early enough before he messes up. I'm sure he can't hide his sociopathic tendencies completely, but I get a feeling that the stuff with his Nancy Spungen gets reversed in some weird peer-pressure undercover cop challenged to shoot someone type of scenario where Sansa has to come across messed up and eagerly wanting to join Ramsay in some hunter-torture stuff against her instead. It would kind of be like how Margaery learned how to play on Joffrey's sadistic tendencies with showing interest in the cross-bow, but I think Sansa would actually have to pull the trigger literally and metaphorically (and yeah, sex stuff too). 

 

I mean I hope we're supposed to see Sansa's arc as ceasing to be everyone's pawn, and she has gotten more comfortable with it all under Littlefinger's tutelage...and with LF not being around to turn to I can see her committing to some sick stuff just to survive until help finally arrives whether it's Theon, Littlefinger, Stannis, maybe Jon, and Brienne. Littlefinger is right, she's totally fine in Winterfell. In Kings Landing, she had no one to trust or at least no one that she knew of that she could. Littlefinger might not be aware of all of these parties, but Stannis coming in combination with mutually assured safety from House Bolton with Stark loyalists surrounding the place and the political importance of her make pretty great odds for her being okay for a long-enough period of time.

 

Man, I never saw Winterfell/The Wall/stuff in the North being the most interesting place where everything is happening, and now it is! The departure of Tywin and Tyrion has reduced Kings Landing as the eh it's okay place with anywhere Dany is remains the second most boring with teases of excitement only exceeded by wherever Bran is at any moment. So far, Dorne is hovering in the newness level of interest that each Esos city we're introduced to.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Tandaemonium

[Holmbo]

I've seen a lot of people mention the sandsnakes killing the captain making no sense. I don't know if anyone mentioned it in this thread but I want to give my take on it. IMO they killed him as punishment for smuggling enemies into Dorne.

[Elkins]

I love the way they keep using Winterfell's status in the opening credits to gutpunch Stark fans.

Season 3: Winterfell is smoking.
Audience: "Oh. Right. Ow."

Season 5: Winterfell is repaired! And proudly stamped with the creepy-ass flayed man Bolton insignia!
Audience: "Oh. Oh. Oh, ow!"

I'm now fully expecting Season 7's opening credits to include...oh, I dunno, maybe a miniature clockwork horde of white walkers jumping up and down on the Winterfell model. Something like that, at any rate. Maybe it will just be a giant crater on the map where the model used to be.
 
--
 
Did...did Stannis Baratheon just bring me to the brink of tears? Really? Stannis?
 
God, they're going to burn that precious little girl, aren't they? As soon as her father's no longer there to protect her. If that's where this is going, I honestly don't know if I'll be able to handle it. I adore Shireen. Can't we just put her on the throne? She could spearhead a massive literacy campaign, get some real social change happening on that crapsack continent.

 

Is it wrong that now I like jolly Lord Tyrell?

 
If so, then we can be wrong together! I will miss Mace Tyrell on the Small Council, making his jovial little dad-in-law jokes while seemingly never once realizing that he is not among friends there. On the positive side, though, his being shipped off to talk to the Iron Bank means that Meryn Fucking Trant is headed for Samarra.
 
Er...Braavos, I mean. Braavos.
 
You know, I have to give the fellow playing Meryn Fucking Trant some kudos here. Every time we see his face, he makes me hate him all over again. He's doing a great job playing a role that can basically be summed up as: "You're a hateful thug. That's your motivation. Now GO!"
 
 

On the subject of Lancel, what was the significance of the "tattoo" on his forehead? He appeared to be the only Sparrow with one, unless I missed other ones with it.

No, a bunch of them had it. All the men who came to drag Loras off also had the seven-pointed star carved into their foreheads. I think its significance was to show that Lancel has now been inducted into the scary violent branch of the Sparrows. The branch that Cersei is going to arm. Because arming violent religious fanatics always works out so well for everyone. Yeah.

 

 

Is it my imagination or was Tyrion humming the Meow Mix jingle?

 
Hee!  I assumed it was that Bear and the Maiden Fair song. "There was a bear, a bear, a bear..." The Meow Mix jingle works too, though.

 

 

How many Unsullied are there? Hundreds and hundreds, right? Dany has lost what, 2 dozens?

 

If that. I thought there were more like ten to fifteen of them caught in that ambush. I'm not sure why others seem so convinced that she's "lost the Unsullied." She only lost a small group of them! The real loss there was either one or both of her most trusted and impartial advisors. Which is, to be sure, a very serious loss for her, but it's not quite the same thing as losing her entire army.

 

 

I get that the Lannisters allied with the Baratheons, hence Cersei being set up to wed Robert, but I don't see why the Martells would hate them other than by association. I mean, I understand not jumping for joy at the Baratheon house, but I don't see any direct desire or reason to actively hate them particularly.

 
Wellllll, Robert killed Elia's husband himself, and she and her kids were killed for his benefit, as part of the coup that put him on the throne. Were the Martells offered any restitution or even apology for those deaths by the new regime? I rather doubt it. Also, I'm pretty sure that the Martells were loyalists and that their people therefore fought against the rebel forces led by the Baratheons in the war. It usually takes considerably more than 18 years for that sort of historical relationship to mellow into a friendlier one.
 
BTW, Tandaemonium, did you post under a different name at TWOP, by any chance? Your writing style seems really familiar to me somehow. (I posted under the name "Avia" there.)

 

Interesting that neither last week nor this week have the Boltons shared that important tidbit for those considering lordship of Winterfell: that they know that Bran and Rickon were NOT killed by Theon. Sure, since Locke never came back, they don't know where they are or if they are STILL alive, but Littlefinger is missing this critical info as he plots...

 
Given that they utterly failed in tracking the kids down, it's now really in their best interest to maintain the fiction that both boys were killed by the ironborn. That way even if Bran and/or Rickon do show up later, the Boltons can maintain that they're obviously pretenders.
 
But yes, Littlefinger is missing some rather vital information there.

Mmm. I think I like it when Littlefinger is missing vital information.

 

Do they? Theon and the Iron Born know Bran and Rickon escaped but I'm not sure the Boltons do, unless Theon confessed to Ramsey. I don't remember him doing so though.

 
Yes, they do. There was an entire subplot involving their man Locke searching for the boys last season.

 

Theon told Ramsay the boys were alive back in Season 3, when Ramsay was playing mind-games with Theon by staging that entire fake rescue scenario. Ramsay then told Roose about it at the beginning of Season 4. Roose therefore sent his best tracker Locke out to find them.

 

Locke managed to track them as far as the Wall, where he went undercover masquerading as a new recruit of the Night's Watch. While there, he overheard Sam talking to Jon about his meeting with Bran. In this way, he learned that Bran had gone north beyond the wall, which was the reason that he volunteered to go with Jon on the mission to Craster's Keep: he was hoping to pick up Bran's trail there.

 

And indeed, Locke found not only Bran's trail, but also Bran himself at Craster's Keep...right before getting himself killed. AFAIK Locke had no way of reporting back to Roose, though, so the Boltons have no more idea where Bran and/or Rickon might be now then they did before.

 

I don't think the Ironborn know anything, though. Theon never told Yara that the boys he killed weren't really the Starks, did he? And I'm pretty sure that all of the Iron Islanders who were with Theon were killed by Ramsay's men after they surrendered and handed Theon over to him. So I don't think there are any loose Ironborn lips the Boltons have to worry about, but I could have forgotten someone.

 

also Sansa's necklace kept distracting me because I kept thinking it looked like a peace sign.

 
It keeps reminding me of that creepy barred circle pattern that the white walkers make of their victim's bodies in the snow.
 
I saw someone else, though, mention that they read it as the "No Entry" sign. This keeps making me giggle, because I am twelve.

[Lady S.]

Re: Joffrey vs. Tommen dealing with the Sparrows, remember how during Marg/Joff's aforementioned crossbow scene they started out discussing Renly's "deviancy" and Joff said he'd like to make that behavior punishable by death? And during the Purple Wedding, remember how Loras left in outrage during the dwarf show because dwarf Renly was riding a bare-assed curly-haired stick figure instead of a horse? So I really don't see Joffrey having anybody killed on Loras's behalf. This would actually be the perfect way for Cersei to win him back from Marg if he'd survived to the honeymoon.

 

I think what Stannis said was carefully ambiguous.  It could have been taken to mean that Ned is not the kind of man to have fathered a bastard.  However, it could also have meant that he wasn't the kind of man to father a bastard with a 'slut serving wench' (or whatever the charming Selyse said), i.e. - it was the result of a romantic relationship with some highborn woman.

I think he was questioning Jon's maternity rather than his paternity, which in itself is still a clue since Ned's cover story of "some chick named Wylla" would seem to indicate a commoner. Jon wondered to Sam if his mother was a whore when speaking of his almost-tryst with Ros, and told highborn-hating Locke that his father was highborn but his mother wasn't.

So, back to Rhaegar, the first time Ser Barry brought him up, Ser Friendzone (who was always a straight-talker about the shittiness of Dany's other brother King Molten Helmet) did not disagree about Rhaegar's good qualities, only the value of them.

Barry: "When your brother Rhaegar led his army into battle at the Trident, men died for him because they believed in him, because they loved him, not because they'd been bought at a slaver's auction. I fought beside the last dragon on that day, Your Grace. I bled beside him."

Jorah: "Rhaegar fought valiantly, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died."

So, Jorah, Barry and LF paint a positive picture of Rhaegar, while Rhaegar's brother-in-law Oberyn seems to think he was a cad to Elia but not a rapist to Lyanna. And the only thing Ned offers on the subject is saying "It's done, Your Grace. The Targaryens are gone." when Robert was in the crypts going on about how he still dreams about killing Rhaegar. By contrast, Ned disagreed with a kingsguard being the one to kill the Mad King, but he did agree that Aerys was a really bad dude.

[Constantinople]

I've seen a lot of people mention the sandsnakes killing the captain making no sense. I don't know if anyone mentioned it in this thread but I want to give my take on it. IMO they killed him as punishment for smuggling enemies into Dorne.

 

Plus, the captain can't be trusted to keep his mouth shut, the Sand Snakes may not want other people to know about Jaime's presence or know that they know about it lest it interfere with their plans.

[paigow]

Plus, the captain can't be trusted to keep his mouth shut, the Sand Snakes may not want other people to know about Jaime's presence or know that they know about it lest it interfere with their plans.

And that these girls would be love matches for Ramsey Bolton..

[DrSparkles]

And its not just a medieval problem or a problem based on monarchs and kings. Many believe the reason Rutherford B Hayes won the disputed election of 1876 was because of how he handled the aftermath of the election and assumed control, whereas Samuel TIlden, who really had more votes, did not.

Also see the 2000 election.