S05.E04: The Sons Of The Harpy

[monakane]

One of my favorite parts of the episode was this conversation between Stannis and Shireen (paraphrased):

"I'm glad Im here even though Mother didn't want me to come."

"What makes you say that?"

"Mother said, 'I don't want you to come.'" Ha!

 

Damn you show for making me like Stannis!  Being a daddy's girl myself, that part really got to me.

[Deanie87]

Speaking of Stannis, why am I suddenly very attracted to him? Does the actor look different this season?

[Calamity Jane]

 

I think Your Majesty was a Tudor-era invention and Your Grace was the earlier title.

 

I'm almost positive that Your Majesty was first used by Henry VIII, so yes, definitely not prior to Tudor era.  It was the age when the kings were centralizing control in both England and France, bringing the powerful barons/dukes into line, so an upgraded title was deemed necessary.  

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

On the topic of sansa's situation

I think she is in a lot of trouble. Ramsey is cruel and sadistic. Also the chick he has been banging obviously is jealous of her and if you remember they hunted ramsey's other sidechick and had their hunting dogs kill her.

 

My initial reaction was that the "girlfriend" might try to hurt Sansa out of jealousy, but I wonder if that is a misdirection. Maybe "girlfriend" will complain to Ramsay about her jealousy, and find herself at the other end of the "hunt" this time. That could be Sansa's first big clue that she knows not who she is dealing with.

 

 

Say what you will about him but at this point, he seems to be the only player really, really playing the Game of Thrones.   All others are either pawns, jocking for position or like Cersei, playing short sighted checkers. Littlefinger is playing a looooonnnng game of chess.  He hasn't been forced to definitively pick a side yet like Varys and Tyrion who had to do so due to circumstances.  Littlefinger may very well in his heart of hearts back Dany. I think he believes Stannis can take the North from the Boltons but probably hesitates to believe that he can successfully attack King's Landing and wrest the crown from the Baratheons.

 

hehe, no I think Littlefinger genuinely in his heart of hearts backs Littlefinger ;) I think his long game plan is to wind up king and if he can have Cat's daughter as his Queen, so much the better. Much as I hate the guy, I actually find myself rooting for him, I don't know why?!  I guess it's like watching Survivor, he just plays a good game.

 

 

Are we really SURE of that now? Maybe the not-burning was a one time thing, only to get the dragon eggs to hatch. She certainly fled from her 2 imprisoned babies when they started shooting flames at her....like she was afraid of being burned.

 

When she freed them in Qarth, they shot flames THROUGH her to burn the warlock (which, BTW, what happened to those guys??? THey sent an assassin after her in S3E1 and have not been seen since?! and what about tile mask lady? FOrgot about these mysteries). She probably is vulnerable to their snapping teeth however.

 

 

And if Jon IS a Targaryen, the Stark blood is strong too, because he does not have the distinctive Targaryen coloring...

 

Most Targaryens were inbred though, and at least in real life, blond hair is recessive to dark hair. You would most likely not get blond hair from a blond and a dark haired person (though you could). That was part of what tipped Ned off!

 

 

Do they? Theon and the Iron Born know Bran and Rickon escaped but I'm not sure the Boltons do, unless Theon confessed to Ramsey. I don't remember him doing so though.

 

He did, in season 3, when Ramsay "helped him escape" before he knew who he was dealing with. Ramsay then had him repeat it to Daddy Bolton in S4 while receiving a shave.

 

 

It seems awfully stupid for Cersei to have empowered the Sparrows this way. If they can arrest the new Queen's brother based on nothing but an accusation (he wasn't doing anything sinful at the time of his arrest, unlike the two random unfortunates in the brothel), then there's nothing to stop the Sparrows from arresting Cersei herself. Her incestuous relationship with Jamie is just as well known as Loras's proclivities. I know what they're setting up here but it made Cersei look like a blithering idiot, and she's never been that.

 

She has overplayed her hand, for sure.

 

 

I hate to say it but it feels like the Sand Snakes are about the last thing this show needs right now. It's already got way too much going on and Oberyen wasn't that major a character to devote so much time to his children's vengeance. Plus the expositiony speech by his daugher before she threw the spear through the guy's head was clunky and contrived. Stick with the characters we already know, show. You've got plenty of them already.

 

I love Oberyn, and don't mind the idea of the revenge plot, but I didn't care for the acting on the Sand Snakes, so far.

[Calamity Jane]

I totally ship Brienne and Jaime. I'd like to imagine that Jaime looking at Tarth was a hint of things to come.

 

Littlefinger and Sansa's relationship is strange and interesting. It's not parental love, it's not romantic love, he kisses her yet he leaves her behind in a very dangerous situation. I wonder where this is going.

Well, that longing gaze at Tarth and the comment about the woman he loved had better mean SOMEthing!

[Constantinople]

Tyrion still can't resist being needlessly provocative.

And if he's to be believed, he was drunk during most of the Small Council meetings.

Tell me again why he'd be such a great adviser to Daenerys

[RadiantAerynSun]

 

I'm no longer at all bothered by LF kissing Sansa, since he's left her with a far grosser alternative. But macking on her in the Stark crypts after what he did to that family feels very disrespectful. I feel like Uncle Brandon's vengeful ghost should have emerged from his tomb to finish what he started in that duel.

 

Well it wasn't so much what he did to the "family" as what he did to Ned by betraying him. NOt that that wasn't awful and wrong, but he was trying to clear the way so he could marry Cat himself. Obviously that didn't work, so he went to plan B (Sansa). But do we know that he was involved in any of the plottings to take out Cat and Robb? So far I don't think we have seen any sign of that, in fact he seemed to be taking action to avenge her (ie having Joffrey killed, plotting with the Tyrells to take out the Lannisters, and now plotting to take out the Boltons). Not that betraying Ned wasn't a crappy thing to do, and not that those actions don't serve his eventual goal of taking power himself, but I don't think he had any particular antipathy for the Starks, just one particular Stark that was in his way. He is quite practical... haha.

 

 

God, they're going to burn that precious little girl, aren't they? As soon as her father's no longer there to protect her. If that's where this is going, I honestly don't know if I'll be able to handle it. I adore Shireen. Can't we just put her on the throne? She could spearhead a massive literacy campaign, get some real social change happening on that crapsack continent.

 

This is my biggest fear now. I don't know if they will succeed in it, but every time her name comes up I don't like the looks Mel and Selyse exchange.

 

Well, that longing gaze at Tarth and the comment about the woman he loved had better mean SOMEthing!

 

I do think the look at Tarth was significant, but I think Jaime still believes he loves Cersei, that is why HE (as he said "it has to be me") has to go rescue Myrcella to try to win her back. But Bronn pointed out when he said he wanted to die in the arms of the woman he loved, "would she want the same?"  I think Cersei honestly could care less, but Jaime just can't admit it.

[Funzlerks]

Tyrion understood how to keep common people happyish and has common sense about things like occupation. I do think he would be deliberatively provocative to Dany, though. She would tick a lot of the boxes that annoy him. But maybe he'll be too caught up with the idea of a dragon flame roasting Cersei and he will keep his contrariness in check.

I don't like the idea of watching Dinklage act opposite Clarke. It seemed like Harry Lloyd was the only actor capable of bringing something out of her.

[ulkis]

I'm almost positive that Your Majesty was first used by Henry VIII, so yes, definitely not prior to Tudor era.  It was the age when the kings were centralizing control in both England and France, bringing the powerful barons/dukes into line, so an upgraded title was deemed necessary.  

 

You're close - it was first used by his father.

[Hanged Man]

I don't know how royal succession officially works in Westeros but it seems that the person who can hold onto the crown is the king, regardless of what the lawyers say.

 

Particularly looking forward to a long scene between Roose and Stannis. Maybe they will bust out in some sort of uncharisma-off. "I am less dramatic than you, kneel to my superior undrama" "You are wrong, I cannot be out-undrama-ed, by you or by anybody, this undrama is my legacy, it is mine by birth-right and I will see you burned alive for being too dramatic"

[Paradigm14]

Speaking of Stannis, why am I suddenly very attracted to him? Does the actor look different this season?

He was always the Mannis, just now you can see it!

[Mya Stone]

Just a quick reminder to everyone posting here: 

This is the NO BOOK TALK thread. I know us book readers like to speculate with the best of them, but any posts I see that are confirming, denying, or further extrapolating upon ideas the show has illustrated using book information to back yourself up will be deleted without a second thought. 

An idea I've been floating around is a thread to discuss No Book Talk posts in - like a "Book Readers discuss TV Viewers theories." If you all would like, I can create that thread to bring the talk to there. 

 

[peggy06]

Speaking of Stannis, why am I suddenly very attracted to him? Does the actor look different this season?

He was always good-looking, but so dour and stoic in most of his scenes. In this episode, he was actually  vulnerable and showed some emotion. He basically admitted that he is the cause (unwittingly, but still) of Shireen's grayscale. So sad.

[Calamity Jane]

You're close - it was first used by his father.

Hmmm - we learned it was Henry VIII, and Wikipedia at least backs that up (not the most reliable, I know).   It says some English kings sporadically used it earlier, but Henry VIII decided it should be official:

 

Around 1519 King Henry VIII decided Majesty should become the style of the sovereign of England. Majesty, however, was not used exclusively; it arbitrarily alternated with both Highness and Grace, even in official documents.

 

Perhaps his father liked it but did not make it official?  It says Charles V of the HRE was first, followed by Francis I of France, so it was becoming a "thing" at that time if you wanted to look powerful.  

[Potanical Pardon]

Wellllll, Robert killed Elia's husband himself, and she and her kids were killed for his benefit, as part of the coup that put him on the throne. Were the Martells offered any restitution or even apology for those deaths by the new regime? I rather doubt it. Also, I'm pretty sure that the Martells were loyalists and that their people therefore fought against the rebel forces led by the Baratheons in the war. It usually takes considerably more than 18 years for that sort of historical relationship to mellow into a friendlier one.

 

BTW, Tandaemonium, did you post under a different name at TWOP, by any chance? Your writing style seems really familiar to me somehow. (I posted under the name "Avia" there.)

Ah. Thank you, that would definitely qualify as a reason to hate the Baratheons. I had no idea Robert killed Rhaegar. Makes sense.

Yes, I did post on TWoP, but my username was the same as here.

[monakane]

Speaking of Stannis, why am I suddenly very attracted to him? Does the actor look different this season?

 

I always found the actor very attractive, but Stannis is such a humorless cold fish.  I think it was seeing some warmth from him that made him attractive.

[Lady S.]

Well it wasn't so much what he did to the "family" as what he did to Ned by betraying him. NOt that that wasn't awful and wrong, but he was trying to clear the way so he could marry Cat himself. Obviously that didn't work, so he went to plan B (Sansa). But do we know that he was involved in any of the plottings to take out Cat and Robb? So far I don't think we have seen any sign of that, in fact he seemed to be taking action to avenge her (ie having Joffrey killed, plotting with the Tyrells to take out the Lannisters, and now plotting to take out the Boltons). Not that betraying Ned wasn't a crappy thing to do, and not that those actions don't serve his eventual goal of taking power himself, but I don't think he had any particular antipathy for the Starks, just one particular Stark that was in his way. He is quite practical... haha.

Well, no, I just think causing Ned's downfall is bad enough, with that shot of him smiling while Sansa screamed at the execution. IMO when you really love someone you don't cause them the kind of grief that LF caused Cat, he even admitted in his whorehouse sexposition scene that he knew she wanted to marry Brandon and came to love Ned. He likes Sansa because she's Cat's daughter and used to have Tully hair, I doubt he really cares for her Stark side, and he might be mourning her mother but I doubt he really wants to avenge Robb, since it was his death that made Sansa key to the north. Roose is cold and practical, LF once joked to Varys about seeing all the people who ever laughed at him lose their heads. If he was sincere when he came on to Cat in s2, he had to know that most of Ned's children would never accept him as a stepfather, and I doubt he wanted anything to do with them with the exception of Sansa. And if Sansa ever learned Rickon was still out there, I doubt he'd be in favor of a family reunion since a male heir would neutralize her political value.

He's really not working in her best interests at all, first kissing her in the home of his insanely jealous aunt, now leaving her with Roose and expecting her to marry Ramsay while he's gone. If he really wanted to gamble with Stannis, he should have gone to Stannis, not Roose, she has "a bunch" of Vale knights guarding her but Roose should have 5x as many men from the Dreadfort that could overpower them if it came to it, and how can LF even still be regent of the Vale when he's already abandoned their titular lord? LF's success depends on Stannis, Roose, Ramsay, and Lord Royce all mindlessly falling into place when none of them really need LF. Personally I take all of those characters more seriously than our gravelly-voiced chaos demon, and if he really is unaware of Ramsay's true nature than the Boltons are the ones getting one over on him.

[Conan Troutman]

Oh yeah!!! Isn't he the one who killed (?) Syrio Forel. Hmm now I wonder if there will be some confrontation between Jaqen and Meryn in which we learn his secret identity actually IS Syrio!! I would love for that spitball to come true.

 

Syrio being alive doesn't make any sense given the information we've got. Either him or Meryn Fucking Trant would've had to die in that fight (we heard the scream, we just didn't know at the time whose it was), and it obviously wasn't Meryn. Him escaping would mean Meryn was in on it, which I absolutely can't imagine.

 

Jon Snow might be the nephew of Dany. If this alternate parentage theory is true, does anyone still want to ship them? Also, if he was legitimized, his Iron Throne claim would trump Dany's. 

 

Only if he was specifically legitimized as Jon Targaryen (and he's a bastard, whether Ned's or Rhaegar's, so that would have to come first). Even then, he forfeited all claims when he joined the NW. And I'm assuming this holds true for all possible claims, not just the ones he knew at the time.

 

Rhaegar (and any of his children) would be next in line after the Mad King. Dany has the pole position because she is currently the last surviving child of the Mad King. Personal flammability notwithstanding, even Varys would agree that Jon SnoGaryen wins by a nose.

 

Well, next in line is Stannis and then Shireen. Then comes Dany, since the Baratheon line ends here and you'd have to go back before Robert's Rebellion. As for Jon, see above.

 

So Jon's claim would definitely be better then Dany's claim. But Jon is much more of a North man, he has too much Starkness to care about a throne in the South. I cant see him going around trying to raise an army to fight for his claim on the throne. Jon has much greater concerns he is about the person in the realm who cares about the coming fight with the white walkers. 

 

Jon's claim would be better, if he had one at all. But as you said, he's honoring his vow at the NW, so it's a moot point. In addition, we're talking about linear, peaceful succession - which obviously is not the de facto state of Westeros right now. Jon would have to take the Throne, it won't be handed to him, regardless of any potential claim or position in the line of succession. 

 

I don't know how royal succession officially works in Westeros but it seems that the person who can hold onto the crown is the king, regardless of what the lawyers say.

 

It seems to be pretty standard primogeniture succession, the firstborn son inherits all titles, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture.

The only question is if and when women can inherit. Given that there are a couple of female title holders mentioned (the young girl form Bear Island who told Stannis to go suck it last week and others, such as Sansa's previous status as "key to the North"), the answer seems to be yes: "Male-preference cognatic primogeniture" as it's called in the article, also known as agnatic-cognatic, which means women are eligible to inherit if all male brothers and their descendants are dead - which is pretty much the same as in modern European monarchies, e.g. the UK.

Though the Iron Throne could have a different gender law than for instance the Lannister household, where Cersei would've been next in line (Jamie's a King's Guard and Tyrion is on the run), but Kevan seems to be the official heir: He said "You're the Qeen Mother, nothing else", which indicates she didn't inherit Casterly Rock from Tywin. Or it's a mix between agnatic and agnatic-cognatic (agnatic meaning men only, cognatic meaning men and women), where women can only inherit if all other male family members are dead, though I'm not sure if there are historic examples.

 

But as you said, those laws are rather meaningless right now, since Westeros is in a full blown succession crisis, where essentially anyone with a big enough army can throw his hat into the ring (which seems to be exactly what Littlefinger's preparing to do) and all the claims in the world can only help you to get this army and some allies, nothing else.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[paigow]

Particularly looking forward to a long scene between Roose and Stannis. Maybe they will bust out in some sort of uncharisma-off. "I am less dramatic than you, kneel to my superior undrama" "You are wrong, I cannot be out-undrama-ed, by you or by anybody, this undrama is my legacy, it is mine by birth-right and I will see you burned alive for being too dramatic"...

And I will also kill anyone that prevents you from dramatically screaming whilst burning to death....

[ToniG]

Is it my imagination or was Tyrion humming the Meow Mix jingle?

I thought so too!

[Constantinople]

If Jon hadn't been so uptight, Melisandre could have borne him twin shadow baby assassins who would have taken out Roose and Ramsay.

Thanks a lot Jon!

[justawatcher]

I got thinking about whomever upthread posted that they thought Shireen was going to get fried pretty soon. Let me ask ya'll-  that grayscale (is that the right name?) on her face looks an awful lot like the dragon eggs did back in season 1. Is there any chance that she could be put to the stake and then not burn ala Dany? Wouldn't that be something?

[Conan Troutman]

Some general thoughts on the episode:

 

- Loved how Margaery (accidentally?) dropped her act for a few seconds, then decided to back to her regular routine. I'd really like to see her lose her shit completely.

 

- So Cersei's shipping off Mace Tyrell to Braavos. Is that just to get him out of the way so he can't intervene about Loras? Or does she have a little accident planned for him? Either way, it's going to be dangerous if Arya takes a stab at his "bodyguard".

 

- I hope we get Varys back in the picture soon. Was excited about his road trip with Tyrion and while Jamie/Bronn and maybe Jorah/Tyrion are a good replacement, I miss the old Spider already.

 

- Damn those Sparrows - they murdered the beer!

 

- Sansa's story gets more and more interesting. I'm really curious what kind of relationship she'll establish with Ramsay.

 

- What will Littlefinger be doing in KL? Thanks to Cersei, there's more than enough chaos there already, so his job seems to be done for him. If he puts any more gas into the fire, KL might blow up completely. Anyway, he's not gonna like that the Sparrows are threatening his pimpin' business. Oh, and he better pray word hasn't come to KL yet about the Sansa marriage, Cersei won't like that one bit.

 

- Obarra, a simple yes would've been enough. Killing the guy who told you about Jamie seems also a bit questionable.

 

- Am I the only one who doesn't care about Grey Worm? He's fine, but I hope he dies, so no more awkward romance with Missandei.

Edited May 5, 2015 by Conan Troutman

[paigow]

- Am I the only one who doesn't care about Grey Worm? He's fine, but I hope he dies, so no more awkward romance with Missandei.

Frees her up for Tyrion....she probably has questions about dwarvian "pillar and stones".

[Boudicea]

 

 

The rules of inheritance aren't laws handed down by God or the Seven, they're justifications for why A is king now and why B should be king after. Succession works anyway people agree that it works, and they modify or change the rules as they go along.

Richard II's successor, Henry IV, is a case in point. Henry kicked Richard off the throne, thereby creating a vacancy. Suddenly it became very important that the next king claim his descent through the male line. By sheer coincidence, this benefited Henry, the son of Edward III's third son and disinherited a cousin, who was descended from a daughter of Edward III's second son. This was utter nonsense since Henry's claim ultimately derived from a woman, Henry I's daughter, and the Kings of England claimed the Kingdom of France via a daughter of the King of France. But consistency, as they say, is the hobgoblin of little minds.

There are numerous other queue jumpers: Henry I, Stephen, Henry II, John, Edward III (though it his mother's doing), Henry IV, Richard III, Henry VII, Mary or Elizabeth (take your pick since there's no coherent theory under which they're both legitimate other than "because"), and on and on. And these are just the ones who succeeded.

Renly thought he should be king, and told Ned Stark as much, even though Renly didn't doubt the legitimacy of Cersei's children at the time he spoke to Ned, and Renly's older brother Stannis still lived. If Stannis hadn't used a cheat code, Renly likely would have become king.

There's no reason why Daenerys or her supporters must acknowledge that the Mother of Dragons, born in the purple to pure Targaryen parentage, must acknowledge that a half-breed Nights Watchman has a superior claim to the Iron Throne.

 

Succession has always been more complicated then the basic principles of succession. If you have a big enough army or political power then you can just about do anything.  In Westeros if you have dragons, like the early Targaryen's then you could get away with anything.

 

But strictly speaking going by the basic principles of succession, this isn't actually complicated case. Jon would basically be the only male heir of the crowned prince, if he was legitimate. That is the basics, and that would put him in line before Dany, in any event Westeros is a patriarchal society the crown does not get passed on to women. If Robert's rebellion did not take place and Dany was the only surviving heir to the throne, then she would properly have been in the same position as Matilda where they would never really accept her as a Queen in her own right, and where her son Henry II, was eventually recognized as the king.

 

But of course this whole situation isn't a normal case of succession, there are way to many other factors that have an influence on this situation. All of this is pretty much a moot point in any case, Jon simply doesn't care about titles, he has already refused to become the Lord of Winterfell. He is one of the few characters in a leadership position who isn't fighting for himself or for a crown.  Even if he does learn the truth about his parentage, it will properly not change his position much, and this whole story would be very difficult to prove in any case. 

 

Jon's claim would be better, if he had one at all. But as you said, he's honoring his vow at the NW, so it's a moot point. In addition, we're talking about linear, peaceful succession - which obviously is not the de facto state of Westeros right now. Jon would have to take the Throne, it won't be handed to him, regardless of any potential claim or position in the line of succession.

 

 

Agreed, at the end of the day it is all very much a moot point. 

Edited May 6, 2015 by Boudicea

[Boudicea]

 

hehe, no I think Littlefinger genuinely in his heart of hearts backs Littlefinger ;) I think his long game plan is to wind up king and if he can have Cat's daughter as his Queen, so much the better. Much as I hate the guy, I actually find myself rooting for him, I don't know why?!  I guess it's like watching Survivor, he just plays a good game.

 

I dont know if Littlefinger actually wants sit on the iron throne, perhaps that is his plan. But I think he would like to next Tywin. 

[Little Dove]

I dont know if Littlefinger actually wants sit on the iron throne, perhaps that is his plan. But I think he would like to next Tywin.

It reminds me of what Heath Ledgers Joker said in The Dark Knight. Something like being a dog and chasing a bone and he wouldn't know what to do if he actually got it. LF says he wants everything, but doesn't everything always change? He will absolutely never be happy with what he has. But I agree with radiantaerynsun that he just plays a good game!

[dr pepper]

Hmmm - we learned it was Henry VIII, and Wikipedia at least backs that up (not the most reliable, I know).   It says some English kings sporadically used it earlier, but Henry VIII decided it should be official:

 

Around 1519 King Henry VIII decided Majesty should become the style of the sovereign of England. Majesty, however, was not used exclusively; it arbitrarily alternated with both Highness and Grace, even in official documents.

 

Perhaps his father liked it but did not make it official?  It says Charles V of the HRE was first, followed by Francis I of France, so it was becoming a "thing" at that time if you wanted to look powerful.  

 

Just like geting special titles from the Roman Catholic Church later. The rulers of Spain became "Most Catholic", France got "Most Christian", England got "Defender of the Faith" and eventially Austria got "Apostolic".

 

Earlier, around the end of the Bronze Age, rulers of the major powers began to call themselves "Great King".

[Isazouzi]

I dont know if Littlefinger actually wants sit on the iron throne, perhaps that is his plan. But I think he would like to next Tywin. 

 

I don't know if LF really wants to sit on the throne. He thrives on chaos and manipulating others from behind the scene. But on the other hand, contrary to Varys, LF seems to be envious of the highborn families, he designed his old sigil and managed to marry crazy Lysa. So maybe you're right and his ambition will be his downfall. He should know that sitting on the throne is a very dangerous position and that he'll never manage to either be loved or feared enough to get the protection he needs. I'm not sure he's rich enough either.

[Holmbo]

A random funny thing for me about these last two episodes is the directors name because a podcaster made a funny pronunciation of it as a home. It's hard to write but it's was a joke on it being like my lord. Mylaaawd.

Now I keep hearing that as I see his name.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Holmbo

[wayne67]

While this episode had a lot more excitement as characters I actually knew were in danger... It still feels like a lot of the time, there isn't a clear storyline just pieces being rearranged on a giant chess board for a grand finale at some point.

 

Maybe I'm just not fond of all the time spent on road trips that peter out into nothing. I used to love Dany but I'm growing impatient with the learning how to rule storyline. It feels like the entire season will be about that and it's yet to be very interesting. Foreign occupations are dull.

[darkestboy]

One of my favourite episodes. They're changing certain things but I do think it's working so far though.

 

Loras being arrested is a good way for Cersei to get at Margaery and Tommen has never been made to look so ineffectual as he was during this episode. I do feel bad for the kid but he's definitely out of his depth.

 

I still think that Cersei's alliance with High Sparrow is going to blow up in her face big time as the season moves along.

 

Jaime and Bronn are a brilliant double act. I like the Sand Snakes but Ellaria continues to be annoying as anything though.

 

Jon was wise to resist Melisandre and Stannis's scene with Shireen really made him the most likeable he's ever been on the show. Still can't stand Selyse though.

 

Good moments with Tyrion and Jorah as well as Sansa and Littlefinger in the crypt. I still think her being left alone with Ramsay cannot end well. Hopefully it ends badly for him though as Sansa's been through more than enough.

 

Dany didn't do that much in this episode but that last scene with Grey Worm and Selmy was pretty bloody though, 9/10

[Boilergal]

I don't think any monarchies allow an illegitimate person to succeed.

 

William the Conqueror was a bastard

[Conan Troutman]

William the Conqueror was a bastard

 

He was also the only child of his father. But yes, it's not uncommon for a bastard to somehow get his father's title - the point is just that illegitimate bastards don't have a claim or place in succession by law just by birth, there will have to happen something else in order for them to inherit, and it complicates matters a great deal if there are people with a better claim / higher in the succession line.

[Calamity Jane]

It reminds me of what Heath Ledgers Joker said in The Dark Knight. Something like being a dog and chasing a bone and he wouldn't know what to do if he actually got it. LF says he wants everything, but doesn't everything always change? He will absolutely never be happy with what he has. But I agree with radiantaerynsun that he just plays a good game!

He kind of knows that about himself.  In Season 3, he told Sansa that he had always wanted a ship, then when he got one, he wanted many, and that people are just that way.  One of the more self-aware in the cast of characters, for sure.  Just not very admirable except that I have to be a bit in awe of anyone who can play such a long game.  It's what makes me enjoy Varys, too.  

While this episode had a lot more excitement as characters I actually knew were in danger... It still feels like a lot of the time, there isn't a clear storyline just pieces being rearranged on a giant chess board for a grand finale at some point.

 

 

Thank you, yes!  This is what I find questionable and annoying at times, although I think we're finally beginning to see the general direction things are moving.  Maybe.  

[Law Mom]

I think Sansa is safe at Winterfell, at least for the time being. Ramsey is a sick bugger but when he tortured Theon he did it for a reason. He's a pyscho for enjoying it so much, but he's not like Joffrey who was like the Queen of Hearts screaming "Off with his head" to everyone who looked at him funny.

 

In justifying this position in my mind, I was trying unsuccessfully to rationalize the hunting of the girl, and I think RadiantAerynSun made a great observation. Ramsey understands the value of loyalty and will not give a second thought to killing a jealous ho who poses a threat to Sansa.

 

I dig Brienne. I was shipping her and Jaime too, whenever I get lulled into thinking Jaime has a conscience and has changed. But his comment about wanting to kill Tyrion for killing their father makes me think, "fool me twice, shame on me."

 

I hope Tyrion becomes Dany's advisor. He drinks and sleeps around because he has never been valued. It must be frustrating to have all this knowledge and advice that no one listens to. It be interesting to see what happens when someone actually cares about his opinion.

[Lady S.]

I think Sansa is safe at Winterfell, at least for the time being. Ramsey is a sick bugger but when he tortured Theon he did it for a reason. He's a pyscho for enjoying it so much, but he's not like Joffrey who was like the Queen of Hearts screaming "Off with his head" to everyone who looked at him funny.

 

In justifying this position in my mind, I was trying unsuccessfully to rationalize the hunting of the girl, and I think RadiantAerynSun made a great observation. Ramsey understands the value of loyalty and will not give a second thought to killing a jealous ho who poses a threat to Sansa.

He told Theon his reason was only because he enjoyed it, it certainly wasn't to avenge the family Ramsay had just betrayed himself by burning Winterfell and that Roose meant to betray too. Roose told him he had no reason to torture Theon as much as he did soon as he got home. Roose didn't want to keep Theon as a pet, he wanted to use him to negotiate with Balon and end the ironborn infestation. Theon was a valuable hostage and Ramsay had to make up for ruining him by finding another way to use Theon to get the ironborn out of Moat Cailin. He only needed to capture Theon, he had no real need to flay or geld him, just like he had no real need to flay to death Theon's last men at Winterfell or the ironborn who surrendered to him at Moat Cailin. And Myranda was the jealous ho in the hunting scene, Ramsay said she'd gotten sick of the other girl and that was why the girl had to die, the girl wasn't being punished for disloyalty.

Syrio being alive doesn't make any sense given the information we've got. Either him or Meryn Fucking Trant would've had to die in that fight (we heard the scream, we just didn't know at the time whose it was), and it obviously wasn't Meryn. Him escaping would mean Meryn was in on it, which I absolutely can't imagine.

 

It seems to be pretty standard primogeniture succession, the firstborn son inherits all titles, see here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Primogeniture.

The only question is if and when women can inherit. Given that there are a couple of female title holders mentioned (the young girl form Bear Island who told Stannis to go suck it last week and others, such as Sansa's previous status as "key to the North"), the answer seems to be yes: "Male-preference cognatic primogeniture" as it's called in the article, also known as agnatic-cognatic, which means women are eligible to inherit if all male brothers and their descendants are dead - which is pretty much the same as in modern European monarchies, e.g. the UK.

Though the Iron Throne could have a different gender law than for instance the Lannister household, where Cersei would've been next in line (Jamie's a King's Guard and Tyrion is on the run), but Kevan seems to be the official heir: He said "You're the Qeen Mother, nothing else", which indicates she didn't inherit Casterly Rock from Tywin. Or it's a mix between agnatic and agnatic-cognatic (agnatic meaning men only, cognatic meaning men and women), where women can only inherit if all other male family members are dead, though I'm not sure if there are historic examples.

 

But as you said, those laws are rather meaningless right now, since Westeros is in a full blown succession crisis, where essentially anyone with a big enough army can throw his hat into the ring (which seems to be exactly what Littlefinger's preparing to do) and all the claims in the world can only help you to get this army and some allies, nothing else.

Yay, someone else who accepts Syrio's dead as a doornail! I hope Meryn Trant gets to fill us in on his death before Arya makes him pay for it.

The Iron Throne is where uncles should come before nieces, based on Renly/Loras first scene discussing claim-jumping and Sansa being told Tommen would inherit if she only gave Joffrey daughters. So the normal Baratheon succession would go Robert>Joffrey>Tommen>Stannis>Renly>Myrcella(or maybe her son instead)>Shireen(or maybe her son instead) and the Targs before them should have gone Aerys>Rhaegar>Rhaegar's son(s)>Viserys>Rhaegar's daughter(or maybe her son instead)>Dany(or maybe her son instead)>maybe the Mad King's sister-wife with a new husband since she would have a claim herself as his sister. This fits with the series being inspired by the Wars of the Roses, back then no woman had successfully sat the throne and men claimed it through their mothers but no woman tried to claim the throne for herself instead of her son. Richard III was accused of trying to marry his niece for her claim, and spoiler alert: she ended up marrying Henry Tudor who was also looking to strengthen his claim that way, but I don't think anyone was advocating Elizabeth of York as an heiress in her own right. It was her Tudor granddaughters who became the first queens regnants, and btw as Constantinople pointed out, both of them were legally bastards. They were both de-legitimized when Henry VIII dumped their moms and made up pretexts why his first two marriages were never valid, but neither was really removed from the line of succession.

The regular noble families should be following agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. If the Stark line goes Ned>Robb>Bran>Rickon>Sansa>Arya and we're told the Tyrell claim would go to Marg's children if Loras joined the KG, then Casterly Rock should be Cersei's. So either that varies family-to-family or the issue is Cersei valuing being the power behind the throne more and choosing not to press her claim to Casterly Rock after deciding there's nothing for her there. There's no way Kevan would let her have Casterly Rock and control of the king, so maybe she seizes one and he takes the other.

He was also the only child of his father. But yes, it's not uncommon for a bastard to somehow get his father's title - the point is just that illegitimate bastards don't have a claim or place in succession by law just by birth, there will have to happen something else in order for them to inherit, and it complicates matters a great deal if there are people with a better claim / higher in the succession line.

I'm not for a kingship future for Jon because a lot would have to change for him to want a southron throne, but saving Westeros from a white walker apocalypse could be the extra something to add to his paternity to give him a claim. Who knows if the NW will even continue as an institution after that. Just as Dany's dragons should strengthen her claim as Westeros' first female regnant. The Anarchy would have probably gone a lot differently if Maud had flying flamethrowers while Stephen only had regular weapons. But if Dany can't have children to continue the line, she can't really have a Targ restoration for long. So Rhaegar having a surviving son is really in her best interests and whether they go in for aunt/nephew marriage or no, I think Team Jon/Dany is far more likely than King Jon vs. Queen Dany.

[Conan Troutman]

The Iron Throne is where uncles should come before nieces, based on Renly/Loras first scene discussing claim-jumping and Sansa being told Tommen would inherit if she only gave Joffrey daughters.

 

Oh I didn't remember that at all. Yes, that would indeed put Stannis before Myrcella. Also explains why Myrcella isn't considered a more valuable asset by the Martells, which I found odd - just get rid of Tommen (or wait until Cersei inevitably does it herself...) and the Martells would seize the Throne via Myrcella's children. Hm, maybe I'm playing too much Crusader Kings when my first reaction is "Yay, just kill the kid -> profit!"... but that's how the Game of Thrones is played.

 

The regular noble families should be following agnatic-cognatic primogeniture. If the Stark line goes Ned>Robb>Bran>Rickon>Sansa>Arya and we're told the Tyrell claim would go to Marg's children if Loras joined the KG, then Casterly Rock should be Cersei's. So either that varies family-to-family or the issue is Cersei valuing being the power behind the throne more and choosing not to press her claim to Casterly Rock after deciding there's nothing for her there. There's no way Kevan would let her have Casterly Rock and control of the king, so maybe she seizes one and he takes the other.

 

Are there any brothers of Mace Tyrell in the books? If not, Marg and Sansa being next in line could simply be due to lack of any other male family members. Speaking of lack of member: Theon isn't heir to the Iron Islands, or is he? If it's his sister, are there any brothers of Balon left?

 

I'm not for a kingship future for Jon because a lot would have to change for him to want a southron throne, but saving Westeros from a white walker apocalypse could be the extra something to add to his paternity to give him a claim. Who knows if the NW will even continue as an institution after that.

 

That's definitely a way out for him, agreed. But I'm not so sure Jon will fight against the WW at all. Maybe they aren't such bad guys, we're just led to assume they are because everybody else on the show does. They didn't seem to be cruel to that newborn, just changing him into one of their kind. Sure, they're killing people, but so does everybody else and their on-screen body count is lower than Bronn's alone. I could see Jon potentially switching sides, just as he became sympathetic towards the Wildlings, he might become friendly towards the WW. 

[Constantinople]

Is it me, or does the youngest Sand Snake look nothing like either one of her alleged parents?

[paigow]

Theon isn't heir to the Iron Islands, or is he? If it's his sister, are there any brothers of Balon left?

Yara is older than Theon so she should be next in line. Theon was also essentially disowned by Balon so any gender bias has been neutered. I believe that there are no additional living Greyjoys beyond the 3 that we have seen.

Edited May 7, 2015 by paigow

[paigow]

Is it me, or does the youngest Sand Snake look nothing like either one of her alleged parents?

It is unclear how many different mothers of Oberyn's 8 Sand Snakes are involved. Ellaria does not look old enough to have popped out 8 babies. Also, Dr. Bashir implied that Oberyn & Ellaria had only been together for the last few years.

[Conan Troutman]

Yara is older than Theon so she should be next in line. Theon was also essentially disowned by Balon so any gender bias has been neutered. I believe that there are no additional living Greyjoys beyond the 3 that we have seen.

 

Yara being older would only matter in absolute cognatic. I'm asking because if Yara would be next in line despite there being living brothers (or their male descendants) of Balon, it would confirm that the individual kingdoms can have different succession laws than the Iron Throne.

[wayne67]

I miss the White Walkers. This story lacks a decent antagonist. I don't know who the protagonists are supposed to be. The pacing on this show seems off. It's taken 4 episodes for Tyrion to end up wherever. 4 seasons for Arya to make her roundabout way to bravos. 3 seasons for Sansa to get back to Winterfell. 4 seasons and counting for Winter and White Walkers to do something...

 

There is only so much death you can see before it becomes repetitive. Half the time when someone dies it takes me a while to remember who they were and tick them off my list of relevant characters.

 

It feels like this saga is trying to tell 10 different coming of age stories at the same time with a backdrop of supernatural something or rather.

 

What are the White Walkers doing? What are the Red priests doing? What is greyscale all about? What is Dany planning with those dragons? Are there wizards about? Are the second rate elves going to do anything ?

 

It very much feels like this show has hit a holding pattern. One major character dies and 3 more minor characters are introduced and a few no name characters also die... per episode.

 

Maybe it's just me though.

[izabella]

No, it's not just you.  I completely agree.  It's like a never-ending game of Risk, but not nearly as suspenseful.

[paigow]

One major character dies and 3 more minor characters are introduced and a few no name characters also die... per episode.

We are watching "Game of HYDRAS"

[wayne67]

We are watching "Game of HYDRAS"

 

It seems more Whack a mole ? Except it's more like whack a Stark. Every time you think you have murdered enough of them one shows up to pour your wine or lives in Winterfell fostering quiet rebellion and marrying back into the North's ruling power structure again.

 

What's funny is that the Starks and Lannisters are breaking even in fatalities...

 

Remaining Starks Sansa, Rickon, Bran and Arya and maybe Jon Snow depending on whether he's Ned Stark's offspring.

 

Surviving Lannisters Tommen, Myrcella, Cersei, Jamie, Tyrion

 

Myrcella has been targeted by the Sand Snakes and Tommen is too soft to rule over Kings Landing without substantial backing.  The Starks may edge into the lead soon.

[Isazouzi]

I miss the White Walkers. This story lacks a decent antagonist. I don't know who the protagonists are supposed to be. The pacing on this show seems off. It's taken 4 episodes for Tyrion to end up wherever. 4 seasons for Arya to make her roundabout way to bravos. 3 seasons for Sansa to get back to Winterfell. 4 seasons and counting for Winter and White Walkers to do something...

 

There is only so much death you can see before it becomes repetitive. Half the time when someone dies it takes me a while to remember who they were and tick them off my list of relevant characters.

 

It feels like this saga is trying to tell 10 different coming of age stories at the same time with a backdrop of supernatural something or rather.

 

What are the White Walkers doing? What are the Red priests doing? What is greyscale all about? What is Dany planning with those dragons? Are there wizards about? Are the second rate elves going to do anything ?

 

It very much feels like this show has hit a holding pattern. One major character dies and 3 more minor characters are introduced and a few no name characters also die... per episode.

 

Maybe it's just me though.

 

It's not just you. I guess it's a budget reason? The White Walkers require expensive CGI? And I've read that Bran's story isn't "cinematographic" so that's why we won't see him this season until he's done with it. The show it seems is the victim of its own format.

 

I feel like the show has somehow been derailed and the story drags. I remember how much I liked when the Night's Watch was trying to warn the realm that something BIG was happening beyond the Wall and how excited I was when Stannis saw it in the fire. Same with the Free Folk and the Red Priests. There was a balance.The story seemed to be that the game of thrones was petty and irrelevant compared to the bigger picture and we were anxiously waiting for the protagonists to realize it. Now the threat just seems forgotten. There's no urgency, just people going places, scheming and some of them dying. It might look like a lot is happening, but not really.

 

I wonder if we'll keep on like this until the last season when suddenly the WW come out of nowhere and the story shifts to The Big Battle between humans/dragons and WW.

[wayne67]

It's not just you. I guess it's a budget reason? The White Walkers require expensive CGI? And I've read that Bran's story isn't "cinematographic" so that's why we won't see him this season until he's done with it. The show it seems is the victim of its own format.

 

I feel like the show has somehow been derailed and the story drags. I remember how much I liked when the Night's Watch was trying to warn the realm that something BIG was happening beyond the Wall and how excited I was when Stannis saw it in the fire. Same with the Free Folk and the Red Priests. There was a balance.The story seemed to be that the game of thrones was petty and irrelevant compared to the bigger picture and we were anxiously waiting for the protagonists to realize it. Now the threat just seems forgotten. There's no urgency, just people going places, scheming and some of them dying. It might look like a lot is happening, but not really.

 

I wonder if we'll keep on like this until the last season when suddenly the WW come out of nowhere and the story shifts to The Big Battle between humans/dragons and WW.

 

Yeah I feel like if they are going to shelve all the good fantasy elements of this show like Dragons, Evil Mages, Elves and White Walkers, then they should just pare it down to Starks vs Lannisters and not mention the other stuff.

 

They introduced the White Walkers in the very first episode as a dangerous threat and they've done nothing dangerous other than convert a baby and get killed by Sam. If the Big Bad doesn't do anything dangerous in 4 seasons why should I consider them a threat. Even the Qarth warlock was more scary and dangerous in 2 episodes than the White Walkers have been the entire show.

[Lady S.]

Theon should have been Balon's heir as his only surviving son, he just made Yara his

Oh I didn't remember that at all. Yes, that would indeed put Stannis before Myrcella. Also explains why Myrcella isn't considered a more valuable asset by the Martells, which I found odd - just get rid of Tommen (or wait until Cersei inevitably does it herself...) and the Martells would seize the Throne via Myrcella's children. Hm, maybe I'm playing too much Crusader Kings when my first reaction is "Yay, just kill the kid -> profit!"... but that's how the Game of Thrones is played.

 

 

Are there any brothers of Mace Tyrell in the books? If not, Marg and Sansa being next in line could simply be due to lack of any other male family members. Speaking of lack of member: Theon isn't heir to the Iron Islands, or is he? If it's his sister, are there any brothers of Balon left?

Well, I don't think Stannis would come before Myrcella now, he should be an attainted traitor. During his parley with the usurper Renly Stan offered to re-instate Renly as his heir if he'd bend the knee, implying he thought Renly had foregone his right to come after Stannis with his royal pretensions and only giving up his crown could remedy that. To Tommen's court, Uncle Stannis would also be a treasonous pretender.

I don't think I can answer about the book Tyrell family in here, but show-wise it's never been established whether Mace is Olenna and the late Luthor's only darling boy. Theon, as Balon's only surviving son, should be his heir, but Balon treated Yara as a replacement son and I think Theon had been dead to him for years even before the neutering. (Roose, not really knowing Balon, assumed Theon still mattered to him and that's why he disapproved of the lengths Ramsay went to to train his Reek.) However, Balon never actually disinherited Theon in s2, he just made it clear who his favored child was. I don't think Yara even realized how favored she was until Ramsay sent them Theon's "favorite toy", she seemed to be treating Theon as a rival when he first returned to Pyke. The ironborn are such a gross macho culture that they probably wouldn't have readily accepted a female ruler if Theon had given them any reason to respect him. As to other male claimants, Tyrion told Theon in 1.04 that he remembered Theon's uncle burning Tywin's fleet at Lannisport during the first Greyjoy Rebellion, but he didn't give a name or specify whether the uncle was Balon's brother or just a good brother-in-law. Again, I think that's all I can say, but the show isn't really bound by the books' huge cast of characters, they add and subtract as needed, Mace could have five brothers and Balon none or vice versa or they both could be only sons, there's really not enough information yet, but maybe there will be more later.

[justawatcher]

Yeah I feel like if they are going to shelve all the good fantasy elements of this show like Dragons, Evil Mages, Elves and White Walkers, then they should just pare it down to Starks vs Lannisters and not mention the other stuff.