S01.E19: Beasts Of Prey

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Gordon and Bullock investigate a cold case involving the Ogre, a serial killer who targets young women in Gotham City. Meanwhile, Fish plots her escape from the Dollmaker, and Bruce and Selina confront Reggie.

 

Promos:

 

[Danielg342]

It's coming. :) The wait has been long.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Well I'll be damned, Peter Petrelli has aged like fine wine!

:fans self:

[shapeshifter]

25 minutes after the hour (Central Time) and I am done with the show. I loved the characters, acting, settings, camera work, etc. But, well, too dark for me.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Think I know where things are going with this serial killer.

Hope I'm wrong.

[Primetimer]

It's all about restraints: Gordon and Cat-Tween lose theirs, Fish plans to slip hers, and the villain of the week really likes his.

Read the story

[HoodlumSheep]

This may be my new favorite episode. Just, wow.

I especially loved the flashbacks (? Do I call them that?) with The Ogre. I liked how they fit into the episode.

These last few episodes really are heading in a darker direction.

[mtlchick]

I missed a good chunk of it but the way Gordon was growling at the end I was thinking "Are we sure he doesn't become Batman?  He has the voice thing going..."

[foreverevolving]

I missed a good chunk of it but the way Gordon was growling at the end I was thinking "Are we sure he doesn't become Batman?  He has the voice thing going..."

 

Well Ben did voice Bruce Wayne/Batman in a straight for video movie called "Batman: Year One"

 

 

About the episode: I thought it was a good solid return episode from a very long hiatus. Fish continues to be the best character on the show 

Which makes me sad since according to rumors JPS won't be returning next season

. Penguin was boring tonight- but that is probably because they are setting something up for his character for the finale or next season. Bruce was... having a hard time tonight poor kid, but I love how they finally stopped to tip toe around the difference between him and catween on morality. he stopped himself from killing Payne and looked ashamed with himself for thinking it, he was even more shocked when catween went all out and pushed the guy out the window. I guess this is the beginning of the rivalry between the two and them moving forward into their paths to becoming their comic adult counterparts.

Edited April 14, 2015 by foreverevolving

[MisterGlass]

I found this incredibly frustrating.  The individual stories had interest, but they were entirely set-up for the future broken up by a very large number of commercial breaks.  I'm glad the show is back, but this episode had no momentum.

 

That said, I didn't anticipate Reggie's death.  That's a pivotal character moment.

 

Gordon is once again a sucker.

[OrientalAmish]

I couldn't help LOL @ all the Gilmore Girls references.... Maybe, Gilmore Girls ended because Jesse killed the whole Gilmore family!

[Lantern7]

Fish can fly a helicopter. Sure, why the heck not? I mean, Barbara is nowhere to be seen, and Eddie's creep factor is around a 4 out of 10 . . . it's the guys' fault for not going, "None of us can fly a chopper. Can you fly a chopper?"

 

Damn, Ogre is creepy. Where's Christopher Eccleston and a rooftop when you need them? Good times. As far as the Petrelli Bros. are concerned, Peter cleans up better than Nathan over on Agents of SHIELD. Now . . . there should have been a better way to see the Ogre in action. I am scared for Leslie, though . ..  canon can be screwed with on this show. Can't wait for the inevitable call with Gordon. "You want to kill my loved ones? Two words: Barbara Essen. That's 'Essen' with two S's."

 

Nice to see Penguin chew on scenery. He's got three episodes to kill Don Moroni. I wouldn't bet against the kid.

[Ubiquitous]

Why did the scenes with The Ogre remind me of "50 Shades of Gray"? Does this mean Barbara is doomed as doomed can be?

I am finding myself not paying attention whenver Fish Mooney is on. Is it me or are her eyes the same original color again?

[Spartan Girl]

The Ogre can have Barbara, but he better keep his hands off Leslie!

I know my pleas will go unheard by the writers but it's worth a shot....

[thuganomics85]

I think Milo Ventimiglia will always be Peter Petrelli to me.  In all of his scenes, I just kept thinking that The Ogre was Peter doing his own version of 50 Shades of Grey, only Christian Grey is an actual serial killer this time.  So, basically, Loeb has put Gordon on his trail, because he is hoping he will kill Gordon's "love ones."  I know I should be freaking out, but thanks to the trailers, I'm already cracking up over the idea that they all are worried about Leslie, and he is actually going to go after Barbara instead.  Now, that's a twist I'd actually enjoy.  Go for it, Ogre!

 

Bruce and Selina are on the case!  Finding information and pushing David O'Hara out of windows!  In all seriousness, that is a pretty big step in Selina's journey to the dark-side.  If anything, I remember Catwoman in general, tended to have a smaller bodycount, compared to the rest of the villains.  So, that was kind of shocking.  I wonder what she'll do next.

 

Oswald really didn't do much, but it sounds like he's going after Maroni, so lets see if that will go better then all of his other dealings against him have done.

 

Fish already escapes The Dollmaker.  But, she took a bullet in the process. Hmm...

 

Yeah, Ben McKenzie really did go all Batman in that final scene with Loeb.  You can tone down the raspy voice a little bit, Ben.  Or maybe it will be canon.  Bruce sees Gordon doing it in a future episode as it like "Aha!  That will be my Batman voice!!"

 

Oh, Bullock.  I think I missed you the most.  At least we shouldn't have any more interruptions going forward.

[Actionmage]

I would prefer if no one Jim dated had to face Peter Petrelli, but life ain't fair.

 

I love Selina and gasped "Cat! No!" She did it for Bruce and to protect them both, but it's the biggest difference they've faced to date. Great acting by both Mazouz and Bicondova. 

 

Poor Alfred! I'll make tea and sandwiches for you, Alfie! Quit bleeding, 'kay?

 

I totally believe Fish's personal nightmare is being turned into another...example. Still, I hope she can hold it together long enough to get back to Gotham jurisdiction so Harvey can do something. I'd also hope Don Falcone wouldn't appreciate Dollmaker doing anything to Fish. As long as he didn't potentially arrange her stay. (Just thinking out loud. I don't read spoilers if I can help it. Gotham's one twisty-ass town, though.)

 

Jim? Hon? Quit threatening folks in front of crowds/more than one other person, huh? Also, quit telling bad people exactly what you're going to do. They are forewarned and forearmed; that is why you end up with your ass handed to you more times than not. Loeb was able to play you because you are just that easy, dude. Yeah, I saw you puff up at Earnest Young Clean Cop's butt-kissing and smoke-blowing. *sigh*  I love that you are still trying to take down the Ogre, but can you maybe formulate a full plan before grabbing an "elected" official in the middle of the precinct house? ( You may have, but this season has tried my patience with "looks dumb at first" writing.)

 

I hope the Ogre dies slowly and in much pain.

 

Sweet Bruce, getting shooting gallery and gun range conflated. *sigh* ::wants to hug the guy::

[opus]

The ogre cleans up nicely for TV-http://dc.wikia.com/wiki/Michael_Adams_%28New_Earth%29

[benteen]

Wasn't crazy about this one.  The Fish storyline is boring and pointless and good God, Ben McKenzie does his most embarrassing and occasionally unintentionally hilarious work when he's growling or snarling.  They seemed to have run out of things for Penguin to do when he gets storylines like this.

 

Selina pushing Reggie to her death was good though.  Still like Edward.

[bobbyjoe]

Wasn't crazy about this one.

 

Yeah, not one of my favorites, either.  This was the episode that felt most like some network crime procedural rather than a Batman prequel.  Maybe he'll become more interesting, but so far the Ogre just seems like 18 billion other serial killers we've seen on 18 billion other shows.  Kind of like a later season episode of Dexter (and in the day of Hannibal, shows better be ready to bring their A-game, since that show's seriously upped the creepiness and creativity for those kind of stories).  In a Batman-adjacent show, I want villains that are super-villainish-adjacent, not characters who could be the CSI case of the week (or as though L&O:SVU does 50 Shades of  Grey).

 

Fish's story left an "all that build up for this?" feeling.  Dollmaker gets kicked around for a few seconds and then off we go?  Not much of a showdown.  Only Bruce and Selina's story felt like it went anywhere interesting, and, then, only at the end.  Even our beloved Penguin's scenes weren't so hot; I feel like I've seen that kind of finger-chopping scene before, too, in 8 billion mob scenes, Crime Drama 101.

 

Really what was awesome in this episode were quick, throwaway moments:  Bruce unknowingly close to Penguin, Selina knowing how to make an entrance with the acrobatics when she dropped down behind Bruce, Bruce's lunch with Gordon.  Did somebody else direct the Bruce scenes this week, 'cause weirdly those felt more like what Gotham's supposed to feel like.

 

Still love the show, but this week's episode was off more than it was on, to me.

[Danielg342]

"He kills innocent young girls! He's a monster!"

 

Criticize Criminal Minds all you want about its sexist tendencies, but at least give the show this much- it never once fell for this trope. All of its victims, male or female, were never given any extra dramatic weight in the story simply because of their gender. Yet here, Gotham falls hook, line and sinker for it, trotting out the one trope that might be the most sexist of them all, because it goes both ways. One because it equates male lives as not as important to save as female ones and insinuates that, because of this, females deserve extra "attention" against crime (as if only males can handle themselves against a prospective villain), by playing to the old adage of women being "weak, vulnerable and precious".

 

I mean, come on guys...it's 2015. We should be past this crap.

 

Granted, this could very well have been foreshadowing for Lee, because then Gordon gets worried about her being a potential victim, but no doubt The Ogre gets extra credit for his "monster-ness" just by the very fact he hunts, "weak, precious females".

 

Ugh.

 

I'll also flat out say this- although I know it won't be popular and I won't necessarily like seeing it myself- I do hope The Ogre kills Lee. The only reason I have for this is that, lately- as Bullock himself pointed out- Gordon's on such a wave of positive momentum that the character can seem to do no wrong, so if Lee is killed, at least it gets Gordon "grounded" and forced to confront the battle he's really facing. Furthermore, it reinforces just what's at stake in his fight, and would be the kind of moral wrestling this show should be providing. There needs to be that balance between virtue and vice- otherwise, this story loses its impact.

 

"You want to clean up the dirtiest city in all of history, Jim? Well, it'll only cost you everything that's ever been valuable to you, including your soul. Are you prepared for that journey?"

 

As for the case itself, it was very humdrum, pulled right out of the CM playbook with none of the real, in-depth analysis or exploration of motives that makes CM unique in the first place. The only thing that kept me interested was the acting by Willa Fitzgerald (Grace Fairchild) and Milo Ventimiglia, because Ventimiglia nailed the role of the well-groomed sadist and Fitzgerald struck the right balance between flirty, sweet, innocent and (later) terrified. Usually "Victims of the Week" aren't memorable but Fitzgerald sure was, and not just because she was very pretty to look at. Other than that, there really wasn't much to separate this case from the millions of others that came before it- the obvious tie-in was "Fifty Shades of Grey", but CM's had the "serial killer who's looking for love" storyline before in S5's "Solitary Man", so it's really nothing new.

 

Concerning the other stories- I liked Bruce's sideplot only for the ending, really, since David Maszouz really captured the "oh gosh, what happened?" look right after Reginald Payne was pushed out of the window by Selina Kyle. As the recapper himself noted, nothing better showed the contrasted what the characters will become than that moment- Bruce won't compromise his morals to achieve his objectives, while Selina is more than willing to. I'll wait to see how this builds, but so far it's a nice start.

 

Oswald...well, I hope it builds to something because that was boring. It was also pretty cruel, because I hate it when parents meddle in their children's love lives, but Oswald's pretty amoral so I shouldn't be surprised he'd dabble in heartbreaking just to further his criminal enterprises. The one scene I did like was when he passed by the same building that Bruce was at, since he stopped and sensed "something" was going to come out of that situation, he just didn't know what. A nice nod of what will come in the future for both characters.

 

The Fish story was a lot of fun-filled action, but it seemed a little too easy. Why the "Catchers" would never think to guard the helicopter is beyond me...the Dollmaker didn't get to where he was without being careful, yet he seemed pretty lax on in his security. I mean, even his keys weren't properly stowed away. I get that there's only so much storytelling one can do in an hour but still...it could have been written better.

 

Which leads me to this episode's biggest problem. Perhaps I'm late on this, but Gotham's episodes sure look like they could have ten different episodes all in one. While I think for the most part the arcs have built at reasonable paces and the story has been effectively told, I do think every now and then they should shove the GCPD into the background and allow the other characters to have a story of their own. Fish's escape from the island is a defining moment for her character, so she should have her own centric episode to tell that story. Same thing with Bruce and Reggie, or Oswald and the restaurant. Splitting up the episodes take away from their cohesion, and devoting less time to each story lessens the abilities to really dig deep into the stories, which I think is a shame because I think there's so many layers this show is missing. I get that there's a "greater" story to tell, but I feel like, even then, we're still light on the details.

 

Overall...not a bad installment. Just not something I'm overjoyed with. Glad to see it back though.

[Actionmage]

The reason The Ogre is considered a monster/ monstrous is because he finds out about the cop(s) that investigating his murders and then kills the cop(s)' s loved ones. Those loved ones, iirc, weren't specified as just female.  He is monstrous because he has cowed this city's police force for at least a decade. .

 

Loeb cherry-picked the case and the cop to deliver the case, knowing how to work Jim. Thankfully, Harvey has a memory and he uses it, not only as an encyclopedia, but as a shield, for himself and Jim. Or at least, as much of a shield as Jim will accept. Now, if Jim can take a moment and use his big damn brain, he might be able to handle the Ogre and Loeb.

 

Mr. Payne? Being all about your professionalism does not include the phrase " I'm going to tattle on you", iirc. Not unless you were a super-professional kindergartener.

 

I also enjoyed Ed being super cool about his help and he seemed to keep his enthusiasm for riddles to a bare minimum. As a result, Harvey treated him as a person and Jim was thankful again. 

[Jediknight]

My jaw was on the ground when Selina killed that dude.  I was not expecting that, I thought she and Bruce would hightail it out of there after Bruce didn't kill him.

 

Loved the moment of Penguin walking by the gun club as Bruce was knocking on the door, and stopping for a moment to look around.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Mr. Payne? Being all about your professionalism does not include the phrase " I'm going to tattle on you", iirc. Not unless you were a super-professional kindergartener.

Yeah, that was ridiculous. Here he is acting all superior and telling them that they're just little kids and then he pulls out, "I'm going to tell on you," like he's a 4 year old. That alone made me laugh when Selina decided to push him out the window. See ya, Reggie!

[Danielg342]

The reason The Ogre is considered a monster/ monstrous is because he finds out about the cop(s) that investigating his murders and then kills the cop(s)' s loved ones. Those loved ones, iirc, weren't specified as just female. He is monstrous because he has cowed this city's police force for at least a decade.

The quote I mentioned was paraphrased from Lee's reaction towards the beginning of the episode, before we knew anything about his cop hunting skills, and his primary targets are women. So his threat, at least initially, was sold as “he's a monster because he hunts women”.

[Jlina]

I don't see the defining moral moment for Bruce. He was too scared to do it imo, so Selina perhaps a bit wiser about the havoc he could bring did it for him. He sure seemed glad it happened and I think it was one of his defining Batman moments, to learn to do what it takes.

I think Jim is spot on perfect working up a rage and being blind, I enjoyed it.

Penguin was good too, he doesn't need blood splatter in every scene. Oh, and I was totally on board but I thought it'd be for Falcons. Forgot about his more immediate grudge.

)nly thing that really looked like a comic book to me were the Fish scenes - but I bet she makes it back to Gotham to at least die there.

The distinction of being a more nster who kills women is pretty subjective. Scarecrows Daddy was just as monstrous. Or circus old man. I believe show's just showing a new kind of monster here, not making a political statement. Perhaps more of a plot device to use Barbra if anything.

[Danielg342]

The distinction of being a more nster who kills women is pretty subjective. Scarecrows Daddy was just as monstrous. Or circus old man. I believe show's just showing a new kind of monster here, not making a political statement. Perhaps more of a plot device to use Barbra if anything.

Mileage will vary, but I think they could have sold Fairchild's death, initially, in a different manner. Lee reacted like the killer was exceptionally vile for killing a woman, as did another cop (I believe it may have been Jim). That's what I didn't like about it. The fact that the Ogre turned out to be someone who also kills people trying to investigate him doesn't make up for how it was initially sold, since at least then the trope was in play.

[cambridgeguy]

Bruce certainly won't be one to let the law tell him what to do but isn't he legally obligated to turn Selina over to the cops?  She flat out murdered the guy in cold blood.

[Ubiquitous]

The quote I mentioned was paraphrased from Lee's reaction towards the beginning of the episode, before we knew anything about his cop hunting skills, and his primary targets are women. So his threat, at least initially, was sold as “he's a monster because he hunts women”.

Upon further thought about him retaliating against cops investigating him, how does he do it? Is there an ally in GCPD tipping him off? Perhaps I am jumping the gun?

[darkestboy]

Not a bad episode to return on. The Ogre plot, despite being the go to type of killer than crime dramas have been overrelying on forever has good potential. Milo Ventimiglia exudes the right amount of creepiness as well, which helps too.

The flashbacks scenes with Jason and Grace worked well in setting up the former's MO as well as the interesting calling card. Both Barbara and Leslie are going to be in danger with Gordon now investigating things.

Nice to see Fish use her wits against Dulmacher and get off that wretched island. Time for her to come back to Gotham now. Liked that she went back for Kelly too.

Oswald planning to kill Maroni is a nice move, though whether or not he'll succeed is hard to say. Canonically he shouln't though, right?

The Bruce/Selina stuff was also great this week. Did not see that little twist coming, 7/10

[mtlchick]

 

The Bruce/Selina stuff was also great this week. Did not see that little twist coming, 7/10

 

That I did like.  I wasn't feeling the kid who plays Bruce in the early going but now I can see him slowly evolving into Batman. 

[SimoneS]

I haven't see Milo Ventimiglia in awhile. He is still good looking though a bit older. Hopefully, this super creepy role gets his career some traction.

 

I knew that Bruce would not be able to kill Reggie, but I was surprised when Selina pushed him. I thought that Alfred would kill Reggie eventually.

 

I have found Fish's story to be unbelievable, but I was glad that she was able to keep her word and save some of her people.

[Danielg342]

Upon further thought about him retaliating against cops investigating him, how does he do it? Is there an ally in GCPD tipping him off? Perhaps I am jumping the gun?

Yeah, I did find it strange that Commissioner Loeb has a serial killer “on call” to keep his officers in line...makes me wonder how the “Feds” (since Gotham is not a country) haven't taken notice. Stuff like this can't go on unless things at the national level allow it to- the way I see it, with rampant crime, a serial killer or four hundred on the loose and a force of incompetent, lazy cops (who apparently still need extra “prodding” for control) it's a wonder Loeb hasn't at least been “reviewed” yet.

[Ubiquitous]

Yeah, I did find it strange that Commissioner Loeb has a serial killer “on call” to keep his officers in line...

Someone at the proverbial water-cooler today opined that The Ogre looked like he was related to Loeb, which would support my theory.

 

Has anyone been able to determine if Fish's eyes are still different colors?

[netlyon2]

Aww, I've grown so fond of Batween and Catween, together and separately.  They're adorable, even when shoving dudes out of a window.  FWIW, I figured that Reggie would be taking a header, the only question was whether it would be solo, tag team, or accident.

 

I wasn't crazy about the 50 Shades of Milo storyline (although he did bring the creepy), but I'm glad to see that it has some significance to the larger story instead of just being a case of the week.

 

Fish/Dollmaker continues to be strangely detached from the goings-on in Gotham, although fairly entertaining in and of itself.  I really hope that they firmly anchor it to the Gotham characters before long. Speaking of which,

Has anyone been able to determine if Fish's eyes are still different colors?

 I looked for that very thing and the only time I saw a clear difference was when Fish was standing by the window in Doc Dolly's office.  I wonder if that's due to the lighting or JP not wearing the lens for some scenes.

[Milz]

i've added Fish Mooney to my "Please kill this character off list" (Barbara has been on it since the second episode).

Edited April 14, 2015 by Milz

[immortalfrieza]

Yeah, I did find it strange that Commissioner Loeb has a serial killer “on call” to keep his officers in line...makes me wonder how the “Feds” (since Gotham is not a country) haven't taken notice. Stuff like this can't go on unless things at the national level allow it to- the way I see it, with rampant crime, a serial killer or four hundred on the loose and a force of incompetent, lazy cops (who apparently still need extra “prodding” for control) it's a wonder Loeb hasn't at least been “reviewed” yet.

Let's be honest here, a city that is both as corrupt, decadent, and insane as Gotham and as blatantly obvious about it wouldn't likely be able to get that way and definitely not stay that way for as long as it has in real life without the Federal Government stepping in and whipping the entire city into shape. That said, the mob probably is giving out a steady stream of bribes to the Feds to turn a blind eye to what goes on in Gotham, but even with that it would still be excessive for a city to be this bad and absolutely nothing being done about it.

 

I don't think Loeb has The Ogre on call, he just steered Gordon towards him in hopes he's get all gung ho and either The Ogre would kill him or force him to back off once the fact he's investigating him reached the press and thus The Ogre's ears. It's actually really brilliant of Loeb since it's a win win for him no matter what happens, either Gordon dies, Gordon's loved ones die and probably breaks his spirit, or Gordon does the impossible and brings The Ogre in one way or another and Loeb takes the credit.

 

 

Has anyone been able to determine if Fish's eyes are still different colors?

Yep. It's just not the blazingly bright blue that it was when they were showing it off the first time.

 

I have to say, I really hope Fish's storyline is going somewhere and somewhere that actually has something to do with everything else. Fish in general so far doesn't seem to have much of anything to do with the rest of the show except to act as a convenient source of information for Gordon and Bullock when they don't care to do actually detective work, a role Penguin has now taken over.

[Maximum Taco]

Mileage will vary, but I think they could have sold Fairchild's death, initially, in a different manner. Lee reacted like the killer was exceptionally vile for killing a woman, as did another cop (I believe it may have been Jim). That's what I didn't like about it. The fact that the Ogre turned out to be someone who also kills people trying to investigate him doesn't make up for how it was initially sold, since at least then the trope was in play.

 

As you said YMMV, but to me Lee seemed like she was projecting. She draws a lot of similarities to herself from the victim. Same age, same neighborhood "we could've been friends" etc.

 

"This person is a monster because he killed someone just like me. He could've killed me if I had been at that bar."

 

Also you neglect to point out the fact that the cops do know that the victim was missing for near a month before she was found murdered. Someone who abducts and tortures their vic for a month (regardless of the vic's gender) can definitely be sold as a monster IMO.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Maximum Taco

[Artsda]

That was a great episode all around.

 

If Ogre is going after Gordon's loved ones, I volunteer Barbara but stay away from Lee!

[ottoDbusdriver]

I have to say, I really hope Fish's storyline is going somewhere and somewhere that actually has something to do with everything else.

 

Unless that helicopter had GPS (and you ignore the fact that Fish suddenly knows how to fly a helicopter, SMH), how would Fish know where to fly to ?  She doesn't know where they are let alone where to go.

[Ubiquitous]

Perhaps that's why Dollmaker didn't seem as upset about them escaping as I expected?

Edited April 14, 2015 by Ubiquitous

[Puffaroo]

As you said YMMV, but to me Lee seemed like she was projecting. She draws a lot of similarities to herself from the victim. Same age, same neighborhood "we could've been friends" etc.

 

Oh, please.  I nearly laughed out loud at that one -- she's at least ten years older than the victim.  So then I knew it would be a setup with her as bait.

 

Something else that didn't add up for me:  the bartender saying the man the victim was with was "hot."  Then we see him, and I'm like, WHAT?  On what planet?

 

Different squids for different kids, but I didn't find him the least attractive, and that was before we knew for sure that he was a monster.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Puffaroo

[Maximum Taco]

Oh, please.  I nearly laughed out loud at that one -- she's at least ten years older than the victim.  So then I knew it would be a setup with her as bait.

 

Something else that didn't add up for me:  the bartender saying the man the victim was with was "hot."  Then we see him, and I'm like, WHAT?  On what planet?

 

Different squids for different kids, but I didn't find him the least attractive, and that was before we knew for sure that he was a monster.

 

LOL! True she was Dawson casting herself pretty hard.

 

But the fact remains. Maybe she thinks the Ogre is a monster because she can see herself as one of his victims.

[Danielg342]

http://www.willafitzgerald.com/resume/

^ That's Willa Fitzgerald's resume (she being the one who portrayed the victim in this episode, Grace Fairchild). She's got a Bachelor of Arts from Yale for Acting and interned in a few productions, so she's likely in her mid-twenties (neither Wiki nor IMDB list her actual birthdate).

So if Lee is close to Morena Baccarin's age (36 in June) it may not be *too* implausible for Lee and Grace to have been friends, if Grace was meant to be Fitzgerald's age. They both seemed to like the same things, plus it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone who is 25 and someone who is 35 could be friends, since the gulf in maturity isn't that much past 23 or thereabouts. Furthermore, Grace was more than comfortable “going home” with the Ogre, and Milo Ventimiglia will be 38 in July, so Grace seemed to be “much older” than she actually was.

I think the thing that struck me most about Grace was that she was the first victim where people in the cast displayed visible outrage about despite never knowing her previously. It's a bit jarring to see Gordon act all businesslike dealing with all the other murders- including the Wayne murders- but once Grace gets offed, he's suddenly become “Gotham's Knight”. It may have turned out to be justified later (that, and Fitzgerald nailed the “tragic heorine” role) but it still doesn't change it could have been introduced better.

[truthaboutluv]

Thank God that Fish storyline seems to be over. It was really dragging down the show for me. I didn't even care that the escape seemed too easy, I'm just glad it may be over. After a somewhat slow start, this episode really picked up in the second half. Damn, totally did not see Cat killing that guy but way to take one for your friend. Bruce didn't have it in him to do it, so she did it for him. Of course Bruce looked totally and understandably freaked out. Speaking of Bruce, he needs to tell Jim what's going on. Him trying to do this on his own, with Alfred who is still very injured is just not going to work. 

 

The Ogre storyline looks interesting. I say this in the best way possible, but I think Milo makes a very convincing rich, highly intelligent sociopathic serial killer. And I really hope poor Lee does not end up murdered but I guess that's certainly one way to bring Barbara back into the fold and back into Jim's life, which totally sucks on multiple levels. Penguin's story was okay but honestly, when he mentioned getting his revenge on Maroni, I realized I'd all but forgotten about Maroni. Maybe the break was just too long. 

 

Something else that didn't add up for me:  the bartender saying the man the victim was with was "hot."  Then we see him, and I'm like, WHAT?  On what planet?

 

 

Different strokes indeed because I absolutely think Milo Ventimiglia is gorgeous. Now granted, maybe that's residual Gilmore Girls Jess love but yeah, I'd see him and think "hot and attractive" guy.

Edited April 14, 2015 by truthaboutluv

[Blakeston]

 

http://www.willafitzgerald.com/resume/

^ That's Willa Fitzgerald's resume (she being the one who portrayed the victim in this episode, Grace Fairchild). She's got a Bachelor of Arts from Yale for Acting and interned in a few productions, so she's likely in her mid-twenties (neither Wiki nor IMDB list her actual birthdate).

So if Lee is close to Morena Baccarin's age (36 in June) it may not be *too* implausible for Lee and Grace to have been friends, if Grace was meant to be Fitzgerald's age. They both seemed to like the same things, plus it's not out of the realm of possibility that someone who is 25 and someone who is 35 could be friends, since the gulf in maturity isn't that much past 23 or thereabouts.

Lee didn't just say that they could have been friends, though. She said something about them being about the same age. And there's no way to pass those two off as about the same age.

[Perfect Xero]

Maybe it's a case of when you're in your mid-30s (though I suspect that Jim and Lee are supposed to be closer to 30 than 40 on the show) you really, really want to believe that someone in their early to mid 20s is "around the same age" as you.

 

Though, the reading of the "monster" line just seemed odd to me. Not because of them treating it like it was worse than a normal killing, but Lee sounds more ... reverent than righteous or disgusted by this person being a monster who killed a woman. Her reaction to maybe!young!Joker was similarly off to me.

Edited April 14, 2015 by Perfect Xero

[giovannif7]

I was completely distracted during the Gordon/Commissioner confrontation by the officer with Loeb:

 

 

Nice work by casting if that's our first look at Gotham's version of future Police Chief O'Hara:

 

[Jlina]

 

but Lee sounds more ... reverent than righteous or disgusted by this person being a monster

 

 

I heard awe in her tone, lol.  I thought it was definitely going to be her doing it until she went off on her this could have been me rant - which I agree was jarring given the obvious visual age differences. 

 

I don't get the hot button of a man who kills women being worse than a man who murders...say children.  It's not really a sliding scale.

 

Although Selina killing that man felt totally justified to me; I didn't even think of it as in cold blood, I thought of it as getting even.  Alfred looks bad and he would've been a threat in the future. 

 

My first thought was that the killer would be Loeb's son, they resemble each other.

[jhlipton]

Did anyone doubt, after being told that the shop-keeper's daughter's boyfriend was a guitar player, that he'd be a few fingers lighter by the end of the episode?

[Shanna]

Yeah, that was ridiculous. Here he is acting all superior and telling them that they're just little kids and then he pulls out, "I'm going to tell on you," like he's a 4 year old. That alone made me laugh when Selina decided to push him out the window. See ya, Reggie!

Seriously! Selina is a street kid. She doesn't have a fancy house and money to hire bodyguards and run away. He was an idiot to threaten her.

I was more surprised at Bruce considering pushing him than Selina doing it.