Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I apologize to Mr Jyn and to my kids over and over and over, waiting for someone to toss me an "it's ok". Which none of them really ever do. As much as they will forgive other people for little things, I guess I have just gotten into the habit of apologizing  way too much for things which probably aren't even my fault to begin with, so they just glare at me and tell me to stop it. But it's so hard to stop apologizing when you don't feel as though you are forgiven 😞

None of them seem to feel that "oops" should be a legitimate part of vocabulary. Screwing up, even to the extent of bumping into a door is cause for a huff and a glare, and a way to blame it on someone else. 

I've had a rough couple of days of more or less silent treatment started because I ate a good size breakfast, so wasn't hungry when Mr Jyn wanted to go out to lunch after shopping yesterday. I would have had a salad or something, but he wanted to go to the Indian buffet, where that isn't an option. He was a bit friendlier this evening, but I messed up again with a comment texted to my daughter which she took slight umbrage at...I was trying to make a lighthearted comment, but she took it wrong and Mr Jyn says I never think before I say something, so he went to bed all huffy again.
 

Oh, what a drag for you. Those "You never ...." and "You always ...." statements are just the worst, aren't they? 

Major downsides to being part of the constant apologizers club. And yet it's so so hard to stop! (well, impossible is more like it, apparently...)

Edited March 23, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Jynnan tonnix]

19 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Oh, what a drag for you. Those "You never ...." and "You always ...." statements are just the worst, aren't they? 

Major downsides to being part of the constant apologizers club. And yet it's so so hard to stop! (well, impossible is more like it, apparently...)

Oh, you said a mouthful! It is so hard to stop. And you recognize that the "always" and "never" things are just figures of speech, but it still makes you feel as though you just can't win sometimes, and that you are just a lost cause.

Funny thing that while I have never had a lot of self esteem, or the gumption to stand up for myself in general, I have always been really defensive when it comes to my parents (well, only my mom, now). My dad always used to say that one of my biggest faults was an inability to apologize for my transgressions. I suppose that kind of came back to bite me in the end. I certainly know how it feels now.

[graefin]

7 hours ago, 3 is enough said:

Because Whitney is pretty stylish, but honestly Erin has been looking kinda frumpy lately.

Only lately?

[CousinOliver]

On 3/22/2019 at 10:50 AM, Churchhoney said:

Well, if that's the standard then I would have been held accountable at age 20 for a lot of stuff that in my opinion I truly wasn't responsible for. 

I realize that this can be seen as just special pleading by somebody else who simply didn't have the brains, backbone or foresight to immediately grasp all the problems her family had created and quickly change her brain wiring to be somebody new and better as soon as she'd passed her 18th birthday. 

But from the perspective of somebody who, like Nurie, was raised in a kind of isolation chamber and brainwashed by insane people from birth, my assessment is that virtually no kid from that kind of background will be able to accomplish that by age 20. 

I wasn't. And I actually left the situation at age 18 and had been living on my own for two years. 

Yet all sorts of shit that had been implanted in me by my family was still coming out of my mouth when I was 20. And that was toned down compared to the tons of implanted shit that was still beating away at me in my brain in the form of insane self-talk. But it's not surprising, to me. Much of the executive function of your brain isn't even fully formed at that age.

I was at least 30 before I could behave in a relatively normal fashion, and I had spent that whole decade fighting tooth and nail to change, with oodles of therapy, self-help books and programs, a whole new world of completely different people that I was meeting, an excellent education, and an actual strong determination to change. As well as, I've been led to believe, far more than the average amount of brainpower, which I've always considered myself extremely lucky to possess.

Even now, decades later, I haven't managed to kill the self-talk part of the equation. The voices in my head directed at me are still there and still shouting the same old crap after all these years, even though my ideas, feelings and behavior have changed completely when it comes to other people and to the world in general. I don't follow the demands of those voices any more -- but the voices condemning and denigrating me are still there and, much of the time, just as loud and aggressive as ever.

So for Nurie? Who's still living in the middle of the situation? I truly don't believe there's any way she could have moved beyond the crap she's spouting at this point. It takes distance. And the whole genius of the fundie setup is that they don't allow anyone to have distance. Especially the girls. 

And while I use myself as the main example, I'm not the only example I can cite for my conclusion about how incredibly, onerously, miserably difficult it is to actually break away, take on new ways that you choose for yourself and start speaking like an individual rather than like the robot you've been made into. 

When you're somebody who's been raised like this, you tend to make contact later with a lot of other people who have.

So I've known many many people from similar backgrounds over the years, and I don't know one who wasn't still hideously damaged, caught in the web, and still acting in some way like their families' robots by age 20. (although the robotic part may act out as an exact opposite of the family model, wholly or in part, rather than following it exactly -- I did that to some extent, but that's still being a robot.)

Maybe I've only met the weak, stupid and irresponsible from these backgrounds. But I think that's probably not the case. And maybe I just overestimate how horrendous the Rodriguezes' upbringing has been. But I don't think that's the case either. 

So....as one who's actually been pretty much where Nurie is and who's fought my whole life to leave that place behind with only limited success, I won't hold her responsible for her utterances at age nearly-20. 

Everybody else is free to do that, obviously!  But for me to do it -- or to agree that it's a fair or reasonable judgment? That would be the height of hypocrisy. 

Just as I expect everybody else here would do, if I met Nurie I'd tell her my objections to the things she says and urge her to learn more and expose herself to other points of view before she declares herself completely convinced of the rightness of her parents' ways. And I hope she gets such messages a lot as time goes on, from live people and from books. Sadly, though, it seems unlikely she will. 

And some day, five or ten years from how, I'll sadly join everybody in holding her responsible if she keeps spouting this stuff. But I've been Nurie....or a version of her, at least. So .... not today. 

So, when do people become accountable?  Should we overlook Nurie’s hate speech at 25, 30, 35, if she’s still at home catering to precious Mama?  

This is the time when she begins to learn, if she’s putting herself out there.   I’m a college professor and many of my students’ helicopter parents also think their sons and daughters shouldn’t be held responsible for missing major assignment, etc, since they’re “a child”.   Sorry, no.  It’s time for hard lessons.  

Nurie’s family has certainly hobbled her and part of that means she doesn’t get a college experience, or any kind of educational accountability, to learn how to be an adult.  However, if she puts these screeds on social media, she can (and absolutely should) get pushback.  If she doesn’t hear from others, she’ll never have any seeds of doubt (like, is it REALLY Godly to beg rather than work?)

I feel badly for her, but she’s an adult.   I’m not going to go after her in her world, but I’m not holding back in my world.   

[Jynnan tonnix]

6 hours ago, CousinOliver said:

So, when do people become accountable?  Should we overlook Nurie’s hate speech at 25, 30, 35, if she’s still at home catering to precious Mama?  

This is the time when she begins to learn, if she’s putting herself out there.   I’m a college professor and many of my students’ helicopter parents also think their sons and daughters shouldn’t be held responsible for missing major assignment, etc, since they’re “a child”.   Sorry, no.  It’s time for hard lessons.  

Nurie’s family has certainly hobbled her and part of that means she doesn’t get a college experience, or any kind of educational accountability, to learn how to be an adult.  However, if she puts these screeds on social media, she can (and absolutely should) get pushback.  If she doesn’t hear from others, she’ll never have any seeds of doubt (like, is it REALLY Godly to beg rather than work?)

I feel badly for her, but she’s an adult.   I’m not going to go after her in her world, but I’m not holding back in my world.   

I basically agree with all you have said, but the problem with these families is that the kids simply do not have the tools to see criticism toward their ways as anything but Satan's efforts to trip them up in their walk with Jesus. They have been trained from day one that any temptation to look beyond their strictly enforced beliefs is part of what will, with the tiniest break in one's battlements against Satan, lead to a slippery slope straight to hell. They are so afraid to allow anything like critical thinking to enter their minds that it's all but a lost cause to all but the bravest, most contrary, and determined of individuals. And I don't think the Rodriguii have bred much such stock.

[Brown eyed girl]

Alyssa promoting her soon to be YouTube channel. 

[graefin]

10 minutes ago, Brown eyed girl said:

Alyssa promoting her soon to be YouTube channel

Homegirl may not know north from south or east from west, but she sure knows how to hustle, and that's all that's important in life (besides breeding for Jesus)! 

[yogi2014L]

22 hours ago, BitterApple said:

The average, young Christian mom would much rather model herself after a Whitney or a Carlin than Jill or Frump Queen Jessa. 

This, 100%. I think Whitney Bates has potential to be somewhat sucessful ala Joanna Gaines ( maybe not home reno) but def fashion/makeup ect. She's modern, conservative enough, and has more of a mainstream life to the public. Her husband has a real job and I don't think they will have 900 kids. 

I think Alyssa and Carlin could too, but I think Alyssa is going to have too many kids to devote time to anything else. 

[OpieTaylor]

1 hour ago, yogi2014L said:

I think Whitney Bates has potential to be somewhat sucessful ala Joanna Gaines ( maybe not home reno) but def fashion/makeup ect. She's modern, conservative enough, and has more of a mainstream life to the public. Her husband has a real job and I don't think they will have 900 kids. 

I wonder if Whitney is doing anything with her real estate license? 

[absolutelyido]

15 minutes ago, OpieTaylor said:

I wonder if Whitney is doing anything with her real estate license? 

I have no idea how much business she does, but she links to this real estate company on her instagram, and she is listed as an agent on their website.

http://baileycorealestate.com/our-agents/

[Temperance]

Someone over at FJ was looking at Sarah Maxwell's business which was devoted to breeding her dog Ellie. The FJ person was convinced Ellie (the dog) was pregnant and going to have puppies. However other posters noted the language hadn't changed and the site had been the same for a year. A day later the site was taken off-line and it seems unlikely they would do that if there are puppies on the way. Hopefully they decided to keep Ellie a pet and not breed for money. 

[Libby96]

I still find it amazing the amount of low-level fame some of these girls have by virtue of being reasonably pretty and having the dumb luck to be born into a family with a double-digit number of siblings.  I mean good for them if they can turn a profit selling make-up or leggings or making YouTube videos.  Make the most of your opportunities!  But don’t continue with your modesty tripe when plastering your face all over social media is the antithesis of that word.

[Barb23]

On 3/22/2019 at 1:05 PM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I don't mind her mentioning her size.  One thing I hate with websites especially ones with plus size models do not say what size the model is.  I have tried to order a few items from ModCloth and have had no luck because their size charts are not accurate.  I'm a 10-12 in a few different lines of clothing, I should not have to order a 2xl because your size chart is off and you probably custom made the clothes for your size 16 model.  All instagram models should list their sizes it can help to sell more clothes.

 Even when models give their sizes, I don't trust them.  I love QVC but it seems like most of the models & hosts claim to be a smaller size than what they really are. There is one host who by the size of her rather large hips must wear at least a medium (I'm being generous) but she claims to wear an XS or small. This goes for any garment she wears- tops, pants, dresses.  The items are sized correctly for the most part. I wear & order an XL or 1X & they fit me fine. 

Back on topic - Alyssa really needs to tone down those eyebrows.  I know they are in fashion but hers seem to have taken over her face. 

[3 is enough]

2 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Back on topic - Alyssa really needs to tone down those eyebrows.  I know they are in fashion but hers seem to have taken over her face. 

Honestly, every time I see a picture of her my eyes go straight to those eyebrows.  Apart from being too big, they are also way too dark.

[emma675]

They are also way too far apart.

[Barb23]

1 hour ago, 3 is enough said:

Honestly, every time I see a picture of her my eyes go straight to those eyebrows.  Apart from being too big, they are also way too dark.

19 minutes ago, emma675 said:

They are also way too far apart.

Looks like her daughters did her eyebrows. 

[BigBingerBro]

6 hours ago, Barb23 said:

I love QVC but it seems like most of the models & hosts claim to be a smaller size than what they really are. There is one host who by the size of her rather large hips must wear at least a medium (I'm being generous) but she claims to wear an XS or small.

You'd be surprised how true the cliche about the camera adding pounds is so true.  Years ago, I went on a QVC studio tour and met Mary Beth Roe.  She's tiny in person.  She looks at least two sizes larger on TV!!

[awaken]

Ugggggghhh, Sierra is now shilling citrus and lemon, too!  As well as Jana!  

[DangerousMinds]

Is it a fundie company?

[GeeGolly]

Where there is a money making scheme trend, there is a Fundy.

[Churchhoney]

On 3/23/2019 at 12:37 PM, CousinOliver said:

So, when do people become accountable?  Should we overlook Nurie’s hate speech at 25, 30, 35, if she’s still at home catering to precious Mama?  

This is the time when she begins to learn, if she’s putting herself out there.   I’m a college professor and many of my students’ helicopter parents also think their sons and daughters shouldn’t be held responsible for missing major assignment, etc, since they’re “a child”.   Sorry, no.  It’s time for hard lessons.  

Nurie’s family has certainly hobbled her and part of that means she doesn’t get a college experience, or any kind of educational accountability, to learn how to be an adult.  However, if she puts these screeds on social media, she can (and absolutely should) get pushback.  If she doesn’t hear from others, she’ll never have any seeds of doubt (like, is it REALLY Godly to beg rather than work?)

I feel badly for her, but she’s an adult.   I’m not going to go after her in her world, but I’m not holding back in my world.   

Yeah, I do get your point.

And, as I said, I'm fully in favor of talking, informing, debating and arguing these points with Nurie and any of the rest of them, whether they're age 5 or age 55. I fully agree that hearing those arguments -- repeatedly -- is the only way they have any shot at moving past. 

I, in fact, would be perfectly happy to go after her in her world. Getting her eyes opened to alternatives is crucial and is obviously the only way things will ever change.

My issue is with the word "accountability." To me, that word clearly says "full responsibility" and blame. And I'm 100 percent convinced that a kid of her age and in such an isolated situation bears very little responsibility for the ideas and habits she has at this point.

Obviously, I'm very triggered by that word and that concept. It's because I've been there and know how horrible that place is. But it's also because I've now spent a lifetime seeing how even the most intelligent and well-meaning people who haven't been there seldom ever actually understand. 

Edited March 25, 2019 by Churchhoney

[OpieTaylor]

10 hours ago, awaken said:

Ugggggghhh, Sierra is now shilling citrus and lemon, too!  As well as Jana!  

It does seem like they're all competing against each other with this particular brand.  Does anyone know - when a person uses a shiller's discount code, do they get the discount off of the whole order? Or just one item? And once you've used, say Jill's, discount code, can you then go back another day and use Jana's? And then Sierra's next time? 

I'm guessing that the consumer has to make an account to buy something with the discount code, and I suspect that these discount codes are "for new customers only." But if I'm wrong, then all these discount codes would actually be helpful to the shopper (but not really helpful to the shiller).

[sleepysuzy]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

My issue is with the word "accountability." To me, that word clearly says "full responsibility" and blame. And I'm 100 percent convinced that a kid of her age and in such an isolated situation bears very little responsibility for the ideas and habits she has at this point.

Obviously, I'm very triggered by that word and that concept. It's because I've been there and know how horrible that place is. But it's also because I've now spent a lifetime seeing how even the most intelligent and well-meaning people who haven't been there ever actually understand. 

I've read many of your posts about how an extremely controlling upbringing can be next to impossible to overcome, even for a highly intelligent person. I think we also need to add in the socio-economic facet for the Rodriguez family. I am originally from the area where they live, and most Americans outside of the region have no concept of what it is like. The drug problems, education quality, and generational poverty alone are overwhelming.

Considering where they live, it would be very easy to stay convinced that a radically fundie lifestyle is superior. I'm not saying there are no positive opportunities, but culturally the negatives are very front-and-center. 

Someone up thread called Jill R. out for being a middle-aged white woman and needing to check her privelege. Look up the stats on middle-aged white women in WV and Kentucky, and it frames the conversation differently. They have a rapidly declining life expectancy due to high rates of drug overdose, suicide, and obesity. Again, I think this helps to see how Jill could maintain a belief that she is a great mom. Look into the teacher strikes in WV along with the massive numbers of children in foster care or being raised by grandparents, great-grandparents, or other relatives or neighbors. 

Context is important,  and looking at Nurie  and even Jill in context might help explain how they can maintain beliefs that seem so obviously abhorrent and incoherent to others.

[graefin]

Guess Alyssa's mid-evil times foray still hasn't taught her how to use spell check before posting things for the world's consumption?

Poor, stupid Alyssa. Hey, at least she's pretty! 

[BitterApple]

Is spelling part of the awana program? Maybe Allie could give her mother some lessons.

[Absolom]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Obviously, I'm very triggered by that word and that concept. It's because I've been there and know how horrible that place is. But it's also because I've now spent a lifetime seeing how even the most intelligent and well-meaning people who haven't been there seldom ever actually understand. 

And that is very sad.  There isn't going to be a great solution as long as parents like JillyRod and David are around.

As I've been explaining to the elementary age grandson at 18 you are an adult and fully responsible legally for your actions.  This is why at his young age we are on his case to learn proper behavior.  To his young mind responsibility for his actions wasn't going to happen until at least he was old, in his view of old, say around 25 or 30. 🙂

My view is that if legally they end up in court, not many excuses are going to be permitted for their actions and behavior, then it's about time to consider their remarks their own.  I'm not saying that there aren't extenuating circumstances, but I believe ALL 18 year olds have extenuating circumstances as they aren't fully grown up yet.  There isn't and can't be a separate category of people brought up by bad or controlling parents.  Life doesn't work that way.  If I met Nurie in a store, she's as responsible for her words and actions as I am legally and while I deplore her parents' behavior it won't absolve her of whatever she does or doesn't do out in the world.  

I don't expect a switch to flip with the kids brought up in that environment, but if we head down the slope of saying an adult isn't going to be considered an adult because x, y, z, then we're in the territory of deciding OK when is a fundie adult an adult.  In my case, that's not my job.  I'm guessing the answer would vary with each poster, each family, and each offspring.  So I bow out of trying to decide and go with adulthood.  

I know I sound possibly terribly unforgiving, but I left a super controlling household in the poverty of the Appalachian Mountains.  I've lived and seen it, but yet there is really no other choice than to recognize damaged individuals come from many types of homes and we can't go around making an exception for each category.  Nurie is likely never going to change and she's going to inflict the same damage on her own family and yes for that I'll hold her accountable the same as I do Jill who was brought up in a similar toxic stew. 

[NotFundie]

1 hour ago, Absolom said:

I don't expect a switch to flip with the kids brought up in that environment, but if we head down the slope of saying an adult isn't going to be considered an adult because x, y, z, then we're in the territory of deciding OK when is a fundie adult an adult.  In my case, that's not my job.  I'm guessing the answer would vary with each poster, each family, and each offspring.  So I bow out of trying to decide and go with adulthood.  

I know I sound possibly terribly unforgiving, but I left a super controlling household in the poverty of the Appalachian Mountains.  I've lived and seen it, but yet there is really no other choice than to recognize damaged individuals come from many types of homes and we can't go around making an exception for each category.  Nurie is likely never going to change and she's going to inflict the same damage on her own family and yes for that I'll hold her accountable the same as I do Jill who was brought up in a similar toxic stew. 

I've been cutting the kids a lot of slack because I know that they're totally brainwashed.  However, I see what you're saying here.  In my own case, I was able to flee to college.  My dad believed in education and it was, at the time, a Baptist college so he thought I'd be okay there.  But, once I left I was on my own.  I worked part-time all the way through and had scholarships and loans.  I never got a penny from my parents.  And I never went back.  I was an adult at 18 and, even though I was terrible at reading people and dated some of the most worthless males in the world, I made my own life from then on.

Nurie and Tim are adults.  They're completely brainwashed, but they're adults.  I can't criticize them a lot but they are responsible for their own lives now.

Edited March 25, 2019 by NotFundie

[Absolom]

6 minutes ago, NotFundie said:

But, once I left I was on my own.  I worked part-time all the way through and had scholarships and loans.  I never got a penny from my parents.  And I never went back.  I was an adult at 18 and, even though I was terrible a reading people and dated some of the most worthless males in the world, I made my own life from then on.

Yes!  I admittedly was a rebel from birth so I discount my fleeing and never looking back.  In my case my mother ended up following me in a couple of years.  It isn't easy, but I did have the grounding from a spitfire grandmother and a great-grandmother.  

Hopefully Timothy will learn and provide at least a bit of hope to the younger siblings.  

[Marigold]

🤣🤣

Alyssa's spelling! 

[Temperance]

The Maxwells have a new blog post about flooding. They live in Kansas and there has been some mild flooding near them. So they took pictures and Steve and Teri took their children to look at the flood.  The post is tacky to say the least. 

[ginger90]

[3 is enough]

Is wearing a princess dress to work in a garden a "thing"? 😂

[Westiepeach]

9 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Is wearing a princess dress to work in a garden a "thing"? 😂

OMG. I did not even see that. I suppose I’ll have to do this now when we plant our tomatoes. 🍅👸

[allonsyalice]

19 minutes ago, 3 is enough said:

Is wearing a princess dress to work in a garden a "thing"? 😂

if it isn't, it should be!

[Westiepeach]

11 minutes ago, Westiepeach said:

OMG. I did not even see that. I suppose I’ll have to do this now when we plant our tomatoes. 🍅👸

Well, I do have the tiara. (Oh, don’t judge me! I went to a Meghan Markle/Prince Harry wedding watch party. 

[Lunera]

Michael is attending nursing school this Fall

[Fallacy]

I’m sure Michael is beyond thrilled to be moving back to Tennessee so I say good for her. Plus, since the baby thing doesn’t seem to be working out for her, I’m also happy to see her focusing on a career instead. Again, good for her. 

[Sew Sumi]

I think this is the first time a  Gothard couple had moved for the sake of a career (!) for the wife. 

I imagine Brandon can work from home, since his job is mostly graphics-based.

Edited March 27, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Temperance]

Does this mean Brandon is no longer working for Gothard IBLP?  

Edited March 27, 2019 by Temperance

[Sew Sumi]

Brandon can do his job remotely. He's in charge of IBLP's website. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

4 hours ago, allonsyalice said:

if it isn't, it should be!

Gah!! As much as I despise the idea of taking even a line or letter off a page of JillR's book, I do kinda love the idea of going out into my vegetable garden (and we plant a huge one!) in a fairy princess dress...

[bigskygirl]

39 minutes ago, Lunera said:

Michael is attending nursing school this Fall

UGH!!! First the look on her face while looking at him makes me want to gag. Second, do these people actually think God sits around all day sending them messages on what to do next. Like he does not have  more important things to do, and other people to help.

Edited March 27, 2019 by bigskygirl

[DangerousMinds]

Another one who uses pointless hashtags.

[BetyBee]

I would like to know where she's going to school in the fall.  I hope she's getting a real degree in nursing and not something made up, like Jill's midwifery.  It's good that she's focusing on a career and I'm sure she has missed her family.  I hope they don't take advantage of her time for childcare.  

[Annb67]

Wait, WHAT?! I'm feeling faint. The baby thing isn't working out which sucks I'm sure. However, instead of sitting around the girl is going to do something and have a career?! AND....they are moving because of HER career choices?! Also, I need to know how God tells them things. Like, am I totally missing out winning lottery numbers if my phone rings and it says "private number" but I ignore it?

[Churchhoney]

10 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

UGH!!! First the look on her face while looking at him makes me want to gag. Second, do these people actually think God sits around all day sending them messages on what to do next. Like he does not have  more important things to do, and other people to help.

There are other people that God would want to help? 

How could that be? 

[bigskygirl]

1 hour ago, Churchhoney said:

There are other people that God would want to help? 

How could that be? 

You would think he would be busy trying to save all those terrible heathens.

[questionfear]

4 minutes ago, bigskygirl said:

You would think he would be busy trying to save all those terrible heathens.

No, God delegates that to the Dillards. 

[bigskygirl]

1 minute ago, questionfear said:

No, God delegates that to the Dillards. 

He needs to fire the both of them because they are doing a crappy job. Maybe this is why he is sending Jeremy to LA.

[cdp73]

8 hours ago, DangerousMinds said:

Another one who uses pointless hashtags.

And manages to spell at least one incorrectly.  MountAIns, not mountIAns.