Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[toodles]

20 hours ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

My favorite part of the story (aside from the little demon) is that after drilling miles into the earth,  the scientists didn't lower down a of piece of sophisticated equipment to take some kind of reading or even send down a camera to see what things looked like, but instead they opted to lower down a microphone.  I mean, wtf?  The whole story is preposterous but come on. Why lower a microphone? Who would expect there would be anything to even freakin' hear? 

 I realize this is a small point to focus on in a story that is completely and utterly ridiculous, but for some reason this particular aspect of the tale really stands out as to me as especially foolish. I don't know why, lol

I know why you think it's foolish.  It's because it IS foolish.  It sounds like something from a '50s B movie.  If scientists (real scientists, not "scientists" ) were to drill to the middle of the earth, it would be a huge and well publicized project.  

Or....maybe that's what the giant tunnel in Lucerne is really doing?  Are they sending microphones (REALLY?  LMAO) to Hell to spy on demons and listening to sinners get what they deserve.

Here is the real question of the day:  Why, oh why, did I even get sucked into this conversation?  Gahhhhhh......

Edited May 8, 2018 by toodles

[Sew Sumi]

Tori graduated magna cum laude, but at Clown, I don't know how much of an accomplishment that is. 

Edited May 8, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[bigskygirl]

Educate and train children. Why do they have the need to train children.

[Sew Sumi]

 Right? That stuck out to me as well. Children are not animals.

[Misslindsey]

I believe it was said on Bringing up Bates or elsewhere that Josie graduated in December, but maybe Crown only has an actual graduation ceremony in the spring. I graduated from a Big Ten school and they had a ceremony in December and May. Though some of the Divison II schools only had a ceremony in the spring.

[Sew Sumi]

Josie went through trade school route, though. Clown probably only has one commencement, so if cosmetology school grads walk, I guess they walked with the four-year students.

[Natalie68]

On 5/5/2018 at 5:01 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

Jill Rod just  posted a long, tedious video where she explains how years ago scientists drilled a hole miles and miles and MILES into the earth and then lowered down a microscopic microphone to see what they could hear.  To their great horror they heard human voices screaming and wailing in agony and gnashing their teeth. Turns out the scientists had managed to capture the sounds radiating from Hell itself! They were of course HORRIFIED and quickly reeled up the microphone, only to discover a tiny demon clinging to it! YIKES!

Jill explains that this story has not been publicized because "it's not very popular" but it has been scientifically proven ... the center of the earth is filled with people suffering in hellfire and of course it could only be because they rejected Jesus. So you better get your ass right with God pronto or else you're gonna roast and toast in Hades!

Good grief. I have the vaguest recollection of a dimwitted little girl telling this same story to a group of kids when we were in ... oh, it must have been around second grade. She was promptly laughed off the playground for being such a little fool. Hearing Jill recount this idiocy, all wide eyed and deadly serious - a grown ass woman - I just can't even believe it. The extent of her IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY is truly astonishing.  She clearly really believes this happened. Scientists drilled into the center of the earth and confirmed the existence of hell, capturing an honest to goodness demon along the way. And nobody but a handful of religious nut job jobs know about it. Right, Jill. Oy.

I've given myself a headache. Her recounting of the tale starts around minute 25 of her video (which I can't link because my kindle is too stupid).  I saw it on her facebook page posted today.

I just feel sorry for someone that damn dumb.

I know it's true because I came here on vacay from the center of the earth but I liked it so much I stayed.  HA!

Crazy stuff Celia!  I had never heard of this scientifically proven fact.  

[Heathen]

2 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Tori graduated magna cum laude, but at Clown, I don't know how much of an accomplishment that is. 

According to her dimwit husband, she graduated magna cumme laude. Either way, it doesn't matter. Clown College isn't accredited, so she can no more teach at a real school with her degree than I can become queen of England. 

[libgirl2]

9 minutes ago, Natalie68 said:

I know it's true because I came here on vacay from the center of the earth but I liked it so much I stayed.  HA!

Crazy stuff Celia!  I had never heard of this scientifically proven fact.  

I remember the hell story from when I was little! And it was rumored play ground talk! The nuns didn't teach us that. 

[RedheadZombie]

3 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Tori graduated magna cum laude, but at Clown, I don't know how much of an accomplishment that is. 

Honestly, I'm not sure how she received a BS when they are so anti-science.

[doodlebug]

30 minutes ago, RedheadZombie said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how she received a BS when they are so anti-science.

She undoubtedly has been trained to teach the only real science: Creation Science.  Because, as we all know, you can take any concept you like, including the Biblical story of creation and pretend it is a proven fact just by calling it 'Science'.  Same thing with the damned living in the center of the earth with the tiny demons: if you want to believe it, it must be a scientific fact.

[Fuzzysox]

3 hours ago, doodlebug said:

She undoubtedly has been trained to teach the only real science: Creation Science.  Because, as we all know, you can take any concept you like, including the Biblical story of creation and pretend it is a proven fact just by calling it 'Science'.  Same thing with the damned living in the center of the earth with the tiny demons: if you want to believe it, it must be a scientific fact.

I see her future as a Sunday school teacher and her husband as some pastor at a church. 

As for the special announcement I hope that it's Michael making a special announcement that she is indeed pregnant. Tori can go a while before she needs to deal with a baby.

[Sew Sumi]

IIRC, Bobby majored in youth pastorship at PCC. I'm pretty sure that he was hired on by a church in Nashville with the agreement that he'd start after Tori's graduation.

[Turquoise]

On 5/5/2018 at 7:01 PM, Celia Rubenstein said:

Jill Rod just  posted a long, tedious video where she explains how years ago scientists drilled a hole miles and miles and MILES into the earth and then lowered down a microscopic microphone to see what they could hear.  To their great horror they heard human voices screaming and wailing in agony and gnashing their teeth. Turns out the scientists had managed to capture the sounds radiating from Hell itself! They were of course HORRIFIED and quickly reeled up the microphone, only to discover a tiny demon clinging to it! YIKES!

Jill explains that this story has not been publicized because "it's not very popular" but it has been scientifically proven ... the center of the earth is filled with people suffering in hellfire and of course it could only be because they rejected Jesus. So you better get your ass right with God pronto or else you're gonna roast and toast in Hades!

Good grief. I have the vaguest recollection of a dimwitted little girl telling this same story to a group of kids when we were in ... oh, it must have been around second grade. She was promptly laughed off the playground for being such a little fool. Hearing Jill recount this idiocy, all wide eyed and deadly serious - a grown ass woman - I just can't even believe it. The extent of her IGNORANCE and STUPIDITY is truly astonishing.  She clearly really believes this happened. Scientists drilled into the center of the earth and confirmed the existence of hell, capturing an honest to goodness demon along the way. And nobody but a handful of religious nut job jobs know about it. Right, Jill. Oy.

I've given myself a headache. Her recounting of the tale starts around minute 25 of her video (which I can't link because my kindle is too stupid).  I saw it on her facebook page posted today.

I just feel sorry for someone that damn dumb.

I am sad to say I once attended a church that played the alleged audio recording of this event. No mention of the tiny demon, though...maybe only the super speshul get that info? Needless to say, haven't been back in many years.

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Honestly, I'm not sure how she received a BS when they are so anti-science.

It's a B.S. B.S. 

[farmgal4]

On May 7, 2018 at 12:25 AM, queenanne said:

They still are... for horror fiction writers. ;)  

Ps., does Jill's story say what the scientists did with the tiny demon?

I married him.

[queenanne]

On 5/7/2018 at 3:52 PM, MyPeopleAreNordic said:

This is so true.  (I work in academia.) That would definitely qualify for some amazing NSF funding!

I want to laugh at Jill's "scientifically proven" story about Hell in the center of the earth, but then I remember that this is something that an adult legitimately believes and that this adult is not only raising - but homeschooling - a hoard of children & I get so very depressed about it.  I picture one of the Rod kids somehow making it to a community college one day and taking a physical geography class (or a geology class).  When the instructor talks about the layers of Earth & plate movement, the Rod kid legitimately asks a question about Hell being in Earth's core & tiny demons causing seismic activity....     /face palm 

I feel sorry for those kids and even a bit for Jill (since she was raised in the cult, too).  But mostly, I just feel a ton of embarrassment by proxy for Jill. 

That would be funny; though not if you were the Rod kid.

8 hours ago, bigskygirl said:

Educate and train children. Why do they have the need to train children.

Blame David, or maybe it's Solomon, I forget which they say wrote Proverbs:

Proverbs 22:6 New King James Version (NKJV)

6 Train up a child in the way he should go,
And when he is old he will not depart from it.

[Absolom]

Blame the KJV translators.

[fonfereksglen]

25 minutes ago, Absolom said:

Blame the KJV translators.

That is an interesting chapter in my  old school Red Letter Edition of the KJV.  I don't interpret that particular verse the way many others might using the context of the entire chapter.  However, it is a chapter filled with contradictions that can be cherry picked and I'll leave it at that.  

[BitterApple]

"Tori graduated magna cum laude, but at Clown, I don't know how much of an accomplishment that is."

Sew, I looked up the curriculum for both the Elementary and Secondary Education programs and it's mostly Bible classes with a few classes actually pertaining to schooling children here and there. The only math requirement is "Intro to Algebra" which most kids I know take in seventh or eight grade. So yeah, I don't exactly think we're talking rigorous academics here. Tori's probably qualified to teach Sunday School and not much else.

[louannems]

11 minutes ago, BitterApple said:

"Tori graduated magna cum laude, but at Clown, I don't know how much of an accomplishment that is."

Sew, I looked up the curriculum for both the Elementary and Secondary Education programs and it's mostly Bible classes with a few classes actually pertaining to schooling children here and there. The only math requirement is "Intro to Algebra" which most kids I know take in seventh or eight grade. So yeah, I don't exactly think we're talking rigorous academics here. Tori's probably qualified to teach Sunday School and not much else.

That is just so sad after all of Tori's" diligence and hard work".  Not to mention the huge expense of private college vs an accredited public college.

Don't some Christian schools hire non accredited teachers.  Probably much less pay than even public school teachers earn.

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, louannems said:

That is just so sad after all of Tori's" diligence and hard work".  Not to mention the huge expense of private college vs an accredited public college.

Don't some Christian schools hire non accredited teachers.  Probably much less pay than even public school teachers earn.

Those Christian schools tend to be the ones where the high school graduates have to then take the GED upon graduation.  This degree is only useful for Tori homeschooling any future offspring. 

[BitterApple]

9 minutes ago, louannems said:

That is just so sad after all of Tori's" diligence and hard work".  Not to mention the huge expense of private college vs an accredited public college.

Don't some Christian schools hire non accredited teachers.  Probably much less pay than even public school teachers earn.

I have a feeling Crown is either letting them attend for free or giving them a massive discount in exchange for the free publicity. I don't think Gil and Kelly would be able to afford it otherwise.

[doodlebug]

20 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Those Christian schools tend to be the ones where the high school graduates have to then take the GED upon graduation.  This degree is only useful for Tori homeschooling any future offspring. 

And it is no more useful than if Tori had no degree whatsoever as there are no requirements when it comes to teaching your kids at home.

[Bridget]

On 5/8/2018 at 8:54 AM, BitterApple said:

Tori's pregnant. Her face is much fuller and rounder than it was a few months ago. I'd bet money she's the Special Announcement the Bateseses are making next week.

I also think it's funny how she and Josie have degrees they can actually use, whereas Trace's Bible certificate is pretty much useless. 

The message Bobby wrote to Tori on their Instagram is so sweet. It's nice to see a guy praise his wife's accomplishments. 

I agree.

Her graduation gown also looks several sizes too big. Also, with the way she’s holding her diploma frame and how everyone is crowding around her in photos, as if to conceal her stomach, it’s a dead giveaway. 

 

Did Trace earn the equivalent of an AA or some type of vocational “degree”? He hasn’t been there that long!

[Nysha]

Is it Crown College of Tennessee? They claim they've been accredited since 2016, or are there different levels of accreditation and some are accepted more than others?

While I doubt she's ever going to hold a job that requires her degree, I'm a firm believer in lifelong learning. Even a degree from Crown College is better than stopping all thinking once she had her GED or bogus Homeschool High diploma like the Duggar offspring. 

[Bridget]

On 5/8/2018 at 10:31 AM, Misslindsey said:

I believe it was said on Bringing up Bates or elsewhere that Josie graduated in December, but maybe Crown only has an actual graduation ceremony in the spring. I graduated from a Big Ten school and they had a ceremony in December and May. Though some of the Divison II schools only had a ceremony in the spring.

I finished my BA at the end of the winter semester (December), but the state university I attended only had one graduation ceremony in May for students to  participate in. I walked in mine because it was geographically close and my mom really wanted to see me do it.

A cousin was a Dec ‘17 grad at Boston University, but BU only has one graduation ceremony in May as well. He’s in SoCal too, so he didn’t fly back to walk and I totally get it. 

[BitterApple]

Just now, Nysha said:

Is it Crown College of Tennessee? They claim they've been accredited since 2016, or are there different levels of accreditation and some are accepted more than others?

 

Don't quote me on this, but if I'm not mistaken it's the Regional Accreditation that gives a school more legitimacy. I think there's a few people here on the forum who work at colleges, so they may be able to provide better insight.

[Lisa418722]

On Sunday, my minister started a sermon series about Science vs the Bible.   I was very worried when he started, but he does believe the world is more than 6000 years old.  And he said God didn't create the sun until the 4th day, so who knows how long the days were before then, they could have been a billion years.  Made me feel better about my tiny church. But there is one woman who says "hallelujah" and "amen" and "praise Jesus" to the point, I  don't think she actually listens to the sermon (she said "Hallelujah" a few weeks ago when our minister said Jesus understands what it's like to be depressed).  Anyway when the minster was talking about science she got so quiet, then when he moved to the Bible she started up again.  Anyway, listening to the Duggars and their friends on how the earth can't be more than 6000 years, then my minister saying what he did, gave me some hope. I thought if he tried to convince me the earth is only 6000 years old, I was going to walk out of there. 

[Lunera]

I looked up the cost of Josie's program and even with the scholarship it would have been about $7700. My sister did a similar 2 year cosmetology program at a community college and it was completely covered by grants and financial aid but would have been about 3k~ out of pocket. Trace's degree seems like a complete waste of money, he could have at least attended one of the trade programs. These kids would not last a month in a regular university but I guess any type of education is better than none.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Lunera

[Lunera]

1 hour ago, Bridget said:

Did Trace earn the equivalent of an AA or some type of vocational “degree”? He hasn’t been there that long!

https://www.crown.edu/on-campus-degree-programs/biblical-theological-ministry-studies/bible-aa/

This is a description of his degree 

[beagletime]

On ‎5‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:41 AM, Gardencrown said:

I don't comment here often: but why didn't the scientists, you know, help the people. If they could hear them, surely they could dig down and pull some out? Or were these poor fsckers supposed to be there? Or did they not have long enough rope? Or were they afraid that the earth would collapse like a mine? Or...I'm making my head hurt.

And as for a demon, I'm gonna say a hell of a lot more than "yikes!" I keep picturing that awful little Diet Dr. Pepper guy.

This made me laugh so hard.  What kind of people were these scientists?  They threw the dirt back on the poor souls.  I would at least try to help someone.  Probably a couple people I know down there.  Kicking the demons butt would be a great story to tell.  

[Sew Sumi]

23 minutes ago, Lunera said:

https://www.crown.edu/on-campus-degree-programs/biblical-theological-ministry-studies/bible-aa/

This is a description of his degree 

This is Minnesota's Crown College, not the one the Bateses attend. Two totally different schools with no association to one another.

Edited May 9, 2018 by Sew Sumi

[flyingdi]

8 minutes ago, beagletime said:

This made me laugh so hard.  What kind of people were these scientists?  They threw the dirt back on the poor souls.  I would at least try to help someone.  Probably a couple people I know down there.  Kicking the demons butt would be a great story to tell.  

I actually looked this story up on the internet cause I am a weirdo.  Apparently a group of scientists in Siberia dug the longest hole ever and dropped a microphone down.  They of course did not quite reach the center of the earth!  The apparently heard humans screaming but there is no mention of a demon.  Whether anyone could ever substantiate the story, I don't know.  Also no mention of trying to help anybody.

[tarheel220]

1 hour ago, BitterApple said:

Don't quote me on this, but if I'm not mistaken it's the Regional Accreditation that gives a school more legitimacy. I think there's a few people here on the forum who work at colleges, so they may be able to provide better insight.

I don't post hardly ever, but yes, regional accreditation is what colleges need to ensure their students' transcripts and degrees are legit.  I work in the department at my university that is responsible for making sure our school stays accredited and we're right now in the throes of working on the 10 year re accreditation report.

Sidenote: I just looked up Crown (Clown) College and yes, they are accredited so their degrees are legit useful.

[Lunera]

26 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

This is Minnesota's Crown College, not the one the Bateses attend. Two totally different schools with no association to one another.

Oops thanks for catching that, I forgot to type Tennessee. I couldn't find a link but saw the classes in the class catalog. 

[awaken]

4 hours ago, louannems said:

That is just so sad after all of Tori's" diligence and hard work".  Not to mention the huge expense of private college vs an accredited public college.

Don't some Christian schools hire non accredited teachers.  Probably much less pay than even public school teachers earn.

I went to several tiny non-accredited Christian schools that hired unqualified teachers. Heck, they even hired my mom as the middle school science and music teacher, and she had no college degree, and proudly proclaimed having raised kids of her own as qualification enough. Horrifying considering I now see at what a high level my middle school daughter is learning. I’m still catching up on my education in my 40’s. Thank goodness I’m a voracious reader and have always been self motivated to improve my education!  

I’ll be curious to see if Tori ever teaches or uses her degree outside the home, or if attending Clown was just to homeschool. (If so, she’s more prepared than the Duggar daughters!). 

[Churchhoney]

4 hours ago, Nysha said:

Is it Crown College of Tennessee? They claim they've been accredited since 2016, or are there different levels of accreditation and some are accepted more than others?

While I doubt she's ever going to hold a job that requires her degree, I'm a firm believer in lifelong learning. Even a degree from Crown College is better than stopping all thinking once she had her GED or bogus Homeschool High diploma like the Duggar offspring. 

Well, the nature of accreditation depends on the group who's accrediting you. They're accredited by the Transnational Association of Christian Colleges and Schools, so they adhere to a different set of standards than those of the mainstream accrediting agencies that accredit both private and public, religious and non-religious schools -- like the Middle States Association of Colleges and Schools that's the main -- the regional -- accreditor in my neighborhood, for example. (the accrediting organizations do both colleges and schools. When I taught high school, I went through accreditation renewals at two different high schools.)

Here's a list of the currently accredited and seeking-to-be-accredited TRACS members. .... http://www.tracs.org/TRACS_Members_all.html

I think it's good that schools like Crown are joining in these accrediting groups because it does mean they're under pressure to uphold certain standards. But of course the standards of a group of insular institutions in a counterculture are going to be, um, counter to what a lot of us would expect. 

Edited May 9, 2018 by Churchhoney

[jennblevins]

3 hours ago, flyingdi said:

I actually looked this story up on the internet cause I am a weirdo.  Apparently a group of scientists in Siberia dug the longest hole ever and dropped a microphone down.  They of course did not quite reach the center of the earth!  The apparently heard humans screaming but there is no mention of a demon.  Whether anyone could ever substantiate the story, I don't know.  Also no mention of trying to help anybody.

Wow, they actually got a few facts correct! Back during the Cold War days, the US and the USSR were (predictably) competing to see who could drill the deepest borehole, and the Soviets won that particular contest. But it was on the Kola Peninsula, not in Siberia. 

All this information comes from a Science Channel show, so, grain of salt. But Wikipedia does confirm everything other than the head-to-head nature of the projects.  And, of course, no mention of demons. 

[Fallacy]

4 hours ago, tarheel220 said:

I don't post hardly ever, but yes, regional accreditation is what colleges need to ensure their students' transcripts and degrees are legit.  I work in the department at my university that is responsible for making sure our school stays accredited and we're right now in the throes of working on the 10 year re accreditation report.

Sidenote: I just looked up Crown (Clown) College and yes, they are accredited so their degrees are legit useful.

SACS is the standard for regional accreditation of public and many private colleges in the south, so since Crown is accredited by some Christian accreditation agency, not SACS the degree is useless. The credits from Crown won’t transfer to any college outside of their own Christian accreditation system, which means Tori will never be accepted into a teaching credential program at a public university either. She can only teach at a small group of Christian schools that don’t care about their teachers having proper degrees or state licenses  

 

http://www.sacscoc.org/FAQsanswers.asp

Edited May 9, 2018 by Fallacy
Added link to SACS

[queenanne]

4 hours ago, flyingdi said:

I actually looked this story up on the internet cause I am a weirdo.  Apparently a group of scientists in Siberia dug the longest hole ever and dropped a microphone down.  They of course did not quite reach the center of the earth!  The apparently heard humans screaming but there is no mention of a demon.  Whether anyone could ever substantiate the story, I don't know.  Also no mention of trying to help anybody.

They tiptoed quietly away instead

[Fuzzysox]

6 hours ago, Lunera said:

I looked up the cost of Josie's program and even with the scholarship it would have been about $7700. My sister did a similar 2 year cosmetology program at a community college and it was completely covered by grants and financial aid but would have been about 3k~ out of pocket. Trace's degree seems like a complete waste of money, he could have at least attended one of the trade programs. These kids would not last a month in a regular university but I guess any type of education is better than none.

Mario Tricocci in Chicago charges way over $10,000 for beauty school. I think $7,000 is a bargain. 

[Churchhoney]

44 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

Mario Tricocci in Chicago charges way over $10,000 for beauty school. I think $7,000 is a bargain. 

True, but how much something seems to cost depends on what you're used to, too. I just looked up the difference between Chicago's and Nashville's living costs, for example, and found that things like consumer goods and rent and so on are 12 to 14 percent lower in Nashville for many of the big common items. ... So I wouldn't be surprised to see a 25 or 30 percent difference between a lot of Chicago prices and the prices in rural Tennessee where Crown is .... So even though the cost looks low to us city folk.... Well, you know ...

(I'd be happy to pay the extra $3,000 to be in Chicago, though, I must say.)

[SuspiciousMind]

1 hour ago, Fuzzysox said:

Mario Tricocci in Chicago charges way over $10,000 for beauty school. I think $7,000 is a bargain. 

$20,000 in my neck of the woods!!

[Heathen]

I feel like the Bateses go to "college" just so their parents can say they did, not because the vast majority of them have any intention of using their degrees or even care about the experience.  

I think cosmetology school here is over $10,000. They are freestanding schools unassociated with a community college. 

Edited May 10, 2018 by Heathen

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, SuspiciousMind said:

$20,000 in my neck of the woods!!

We must live near each other.  I was shocked.  If Josie works a few years, she can easily make back the money spent on education.  I keep (foolishly) holding out hope that one of the Bates daughters will voluntarily wait until 26 or older to start a family. 

[Tabbygirl521]

On 5/9/2018 at 6:58 PM, SuspiciousMind said:

$20,000 in my neck of the woods!!

Holy frick!

ETA: I will say the grads of this particular school are top of the line. But WOW. 

Edited May 11, 2018 by Tabbygirl521

[beagletime]

At least the Bates children are doing something.  Better than the Duggars hanging around the TTH.  One difference between the Bates and Duggars, the Bates family looks clean.  Even dressed up all the Duggars look like they need a good scrubbing.  

[doodlebug]

9 hours ago, SuspiciousMind said:

$20,000 in my neck of the woods!!

Remember, you get what you pay for.  Harvard costs more than your local community college.  I suspect the more expensive schools have better facilities, more qualified faculty, more variety in the course offerings and a higher rate of graduates passing their licensure exams and getting good jobs.  I would expect that Crown College has narrowly defined requirements for faculty which would necessarily limit who might even apply to teach there let alone be hired.

[GeeGolly]

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

We must live near each other.  I was shocked.  If Josie works a few years, she can easily make back the money spent on education.  I keep (foolishly) holding out hope that one of the Bates daughters will voluntarily wait until 26 or older to start a family. 

Me too. But unlikely with Josie. Her boyfriend and her actually had childhood crushes on each other just a few years back. They were asked to just be friends then. I see her marrying very soon and popping out the next Bates baby very close to Tori and Carlin.