Sweet Fellowship: Duggars and Friends (aka the Bates Family and Other Featured Families Thread)

[Jeeves]

8 hours ago, Absolom said:

We must live near each other.  I was shocked.  If Josie works a few years, she can easily make back the money spent on education.  I keep (foolishly) holding out hope that one of the Bates daughters will voluntarily wait until 26 or older to start a family. 

But, but, but - I thought it was a serious huge part of the belief systems of the Bateses and Duggars and their super-fundamentalist ilk, that wimmin belong in. the. home. Period. They have a role ordained by God and Jesus, to have the babies and keep the house and homeschool the kids and be joyfully available for sex with their husbands (when the HUSBAND wants it). The man's role is to support the household financially and rule it as the Headship. Wimmin are not to step outside that assigned role. They would be sinning against God to take a paid job, and no doubt consigned to hell forever if that paid job put them under the authority of anyone other than their headship. Headship = father for unmarried wimmin, husband for married wimmin, and I don't know who for widowed wimmin. There is no divorce, so that category wouldn't exist for these people.

So all this stuff about Bates daughters going to college seems to me to be just about equipping them to homeschool their children. 

Isn't talk about any Bates daughter going out and earning money, just complete speculation and fantasy?

I haven't been paying much attention, TBH. I'd rather have another root canal than watch ten minutes of these boring whackjobs on teevee. 

Have they changed so much that their wimmin might go out and get jobs?

[Fuzzysox]

10 hours ago, SuspiciousMind said:

$20,000 in my neck of the woods!!

I truly didn't look up the tuition but one of my neighbors told me that he paid xxxxx amount to send his daughter there and all I remember was it was way over $10,000. the actual numbers are here:

Tricoci university tuition

Cost for Program with Highest Enrollment

Program:Cosmetology/Cosmetologist, General

Tuition & Fees for Entire Program:$19,400

Length of Program:1500 Credit Hours

Room & Board:Not Available

Books & Supplies:$2,950

Way back in the 80's my high school had a work-study program that allowed girls to go to Ippolito's Beauty School while still attending high school, I remember it being $1,000. Pretty cheap considering the crazy tuition prices now.

[Triple P]

11 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Isn't talk about any Bates daughter going out and earning money, just complete speculation and fantasy?

Josie currently works at a real salon. Whitney or Erin posted pictures on Instagram of Josie at work.

I could see her working from home once she is engaged/married. (My first haircuts were from a lady who had a beauty station in her garage.) It wouldn't be unprecedented within the Bates family, Erin taught piano after she married, though I dont know if she still does with three small children at home. Michael has a home sewing business. Whitney also works outside the home, though she did not grow up under Gothard, so perhaps not the best example.

[Jeeves]

15 minutes ago, Triple P said:

Josie currently works at a real salon. Whitney or Erin posted pictures on Instagram of Josie at work.

I could see her working from home once she is engaged/married. (My first haircuts were from a lady who had a beauty station in her garage.) It wouldn't be unprecedented within the Bates family, Erin taught piano after she married, though I dont know if she still does with three small children at home. Michael has a home sewing business. Whitney also works outside the home, though she did not grow up under Gothard, so perhaps not the best example.

Okay. So I suppose it's one of these: 

1. The Bates parents never bought into the strict gender role thing that the schmucky Duggar parents spouted ad nauseum (men earning the money, women doing everything else).
2. The Bates parents bought into it but exposure to a wider world via the evil television industry not only pulled them out of poverty, it helped them dump the "women can't go earn money" idea in favor of, well, making money.
3. The Bates daughters have married and their new headships allow their wives to work. (I have no clue who Josie is or if she's married; if not, then her headship Dad, he who is on the frigging Board of Directors of Gothard's organization, has allowed her to work.)

I do have a question. Does Gothard's organization teach those strict "women belong in the home and must not have outside jobs ever ever ever" gender roles? I've read articles about the fundie/quiverfull movement in general that indicate it's a real thing that when coupled with the idea of women as mega-breeders has led to lots of huge families living in poverty with mothers/wives stressed and overworked to the max. But I don't know if IBLP pushes that strict prohibition against women having jobs.

[Ohiopirate02]

24 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

I truly didn't look up the tuition but one of my neighbors told me that he paid xxxxx amount to send his daughter there and all I remember was it was way over $10,000. the actual numbers are here:

Tricoci university tuition

Cost for Program with Highest Enrollment

Program:Cosmetology/Cosmetologist, General

Tuition & Fees for Entire Program:$19,400

Length of Program:1500 Credit Hours

Room & Board:Not Available

Books & Supplies:$2,950

Way back in the 80's my high school had a work-study program that allowed girls to go to Ippolito's Beauty School while still attending high school, I remember it being $1,000. Pretty cheap considering the crazy tuition prices now.

The cost of all education has greatly increased based mostly on relaxed regulations when it comes to student loans.  The quality has not gotten any better, but the cost has soared.   

I read a great book last year that looked into this phenomenon, Lower Ed by Tressie McMillan Cottom. She does talk about how many beauty schools are not for profit and the vast amounts of debt the students will incur during the program.  

https://www.amazon.com/Lower-Ed-Troubling-Profit-Colleges/dp/1620970600/ref=tmm_hrd_swatch_0?_encoding=UTF8&qid=1525956939&sr=8-1

[Churchhoney]

5 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

Okay. So I suppose it's one of these: 

1. The Bates parents never bought into the strict gender role thing that the schmucky Duggar parents spouted ad nauseum (men earning the money, women doing everything else).
2. The Bates parents bought into it but exposure to a wider world via the evil television industry not only pulled them out of poverty, it helped them dump the "women can't go earn money" idea in favor of, well, making money.
3. The Bates daughters have married and their new headships allow their wives to work. (I have no clue who Josie is or if she's married; if not, then her headship Dad, he who is on the frigging Board of Directors of Gothard's organization, has allowed her to work.)

I do have a question. Does Gothard's organization teach those strict "women belong in the home and must not have outside jobs ever ever ever" gender roles? I've read articles about the fundie/quiverfull movement in general that indicate it's a real thing that when coupled with the idea of women as mega-breeders has led to lots of huge families living in poverty with mothers/wives stressed and overworked to the max. But I don't know if IBLP pushes that strict prohibition against women having jobs.

Well, lots of YOUNG women were practically conscripted to come work at Gothard headquarters! ... 

The thing is, Gothard preaches that men should work  only for themselves, because of the grave dangers they'd be in if they somehow ended up working for or with non-Gothard-brainwashed people. So they've created a bunch of self-employed guys with giant families.

So while they do strongly suggest that women's place is in the home and only in the home because she has to be under her husband's control and "protection" all the time, that becomes a pretty gray area when the men are all running businesses OUT OF THEIR HOMES .... So the women do help out with those businesses -- and then they've likely become working women, with some workplace skills,. And then, of course, the self-employment thing often doesn't work out too well financially, so the rule may also slip just to get people fed.

I've always gotten the sense that the Duggs make so much of it because it gives JB big bragging rights -- Look how great I am! I can keep the Gothard rules and MY womenfolk NEVER have to work outside the home!!!  (and even a bunch of my sons-in-law!!) .... JB"s gigantic ego just LOVES that, I'm sure. ..... Seems to me, though, that the TV show -- which is why he can do it -- actually IS the dreaded "working for someone else" -- because think of where the money's coming from and all those big-city entertainment-biz-tech people they hang around with. Those are the very "dangers" Gothard's don't-work-for-others rule is designed to prevent. 

I'd guess that reasons 2 and 3 account for the Bates' waffling. That, and their greater experience with the poverty that accompanies the work-only-for-yourself-and-women-don't-work-at-jobs-at-all rule. They've been saved by tv, but for a long long time they weren't. 

[Jeeves]

Good points, Churchy. Thanks.

Oh, yes, JB's great ego. He got a boost starting out in life because AFAIK he stepped into the Duggar family businesses. He's the third generation of Duggars in that area to be in real estate and car sales and maybe other things. Sort of like being born on second base and thinking you hit a double. Sure he had to get out and do business himself, but after I learned he blew $250K of his own resources on a stupid losing political primary campaign about 15 years ago, while his huge family was crammed into a little house and living hand to mouth in old clothes and used shoes? I saw the real guy. Meh.

[BitterApple]

The Bates kids definitely have more hustle than the Duggars. I don't know if that's due to the encouragement of their parents or the fact that Gil isn't drowning in money, but either way I think it's a positive thing.

I saw a picture of Josie's work on her salon's Instagram page and she's really good. If she sticks with it and builds up her clientele, she could be making great money. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

I would suspect that if a woman has some sort of side-business like beauty which she can run from the house it would likely be seen more as a fairly frivolous pastime which happened to bring in some cash. And said cash would likely be turned right over to the headship anyway, so they could sort of turn a blind eye to it; even if it became fairly substantial there could still be a sort of attitude of it being cute that she has her little hobby. Plus she would be getting all that practice in keeping herself pretty for her headship.

And if she worked alongside him in a business he ran out of the house it would doubtless just be seen as support, and any money the business made would just be doled out as needed without her ever getting any sort of payment in her own name.

Still, as has been noted, at least these people would get some actual, marketable skills in the process, which is more than any of the Duggar women ever seem to manage.

[TresGatos]

On 5/8/2018 at 9:41 AM, Gardencrown said:

I don't comment here often: but why didn't the scientists, you know, help the people. If they could hear them, surely they could dig down and pull some out? Or were these poor fsckers supposed to be there? Or did they not have long enough rope? Or were they afraid that the earth would collapse like a mine? Or...I'm making my head hurt.

And as for a demon, I'm gonna say a hell of a lot more than "yikes!" I keep picturing that awful little Diet Dr. Pepper guy.

It reminds me of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, Fear, Itself, where in the end the demon who has been tormenting them turns out to be a teeny tiny demon and they pick it up and make fun of it and then they drop it and Buffy's foot comes down.

[Temperance]

Kelly and Gil  Bates are college-educated and their culture before joining IBLP was probably encouraging education for all. Sending their kids to Crown is possibly a melding of both their current beliefs (religious to a fault) and their previous beliefs (education is good thing).

It's also possible that Kelly and Gil want their girls to have a fall-back career in case they need it. (For example, if the couple decided they needed more cash or if the something bad happens and one of their girls is widowed, etc.) 

[Natalie68]

6 hours ago, Fuzzysox said:

I truly didn't look up the tuition but one of my neighbors told me that he paid xxxxx amount to send his daughter there and all I remember was it was way over $10,000. the actual numbers are here:

Tricoci university tuition

Cost for Program with Highest Enrollment

Program:Cosmetology/Cosmetologist, General

Tuition & Fees for Entire Program:$19,400

Length of Program:1500 Credit Hours

Room & Board:Not Available

Books & Supplies:$2,950

Way back in the 80's my high school had a work-study program that allowed girls to go to Ippolito's Beauty School while still attending high school, I remember it being $1,000. Pretty cheap considering the crazy tuition prices now.

When I went to beauty school in the mid 80s I went through our city college program.  It was at the normal beauty school so you had a choice, you pay the school directly (was about 10K) OR you did all the normal cc placement tests and went into a lottery to see who got to be enrolled under the cc.  Saved a ton of $.  Hair is a good gig and I recommend keeping the license current if for no other reason you get to buy hair products wholesale.  It is hard and takes a long time to make decent money at hair.  A long time.  You don't get sick time, vacation time, you work before/after all holidays, its hard work and horrible on your body.  I left because I wanted more stability and didn't like dealing with no clients = no $.  I have a friend that has kept doing it and she is turning 50.  It scares her because she doesn't know how she is going to retire or what happens if she gets sick.  I got a job w my current employer as a lark and it was only a 9 month position but now I have been here for almost 30 years.  I feel incredibly lucky.

Edited May 10, 2018 by Natalie68

[lianau]

On 5/8/2018 at 9:28 PM, Heathen said:

According to her dimwit husband, she graduated magna cumme laude. Either way, it doesn't matter. Clown College isn't accredited, so she can no more teach at a real school with her degree than I can become queen of England. 

What I don't understand is why people pay money to attend these unaccredited school ?  Why not choose Liberty University or any other accredited Christian college ?

[Churchhoney]

40 minutes ago, lianau said:

What I don't understand is why people pay money to attend these unaccredited school ?  Why not choose Liberty University or any other accredited Christian college ?

Good question. 

Too expensive? Requires too many non-bible courses to get a non-bible degree? Too far from home? 

[latetotheparty]

6 hours ago, Natalie68 said:

When I went to beauty school in the mid 80s I went through our city college program.  It was at the normal beauty school so you had a choice, you pay the school directly (was about 10K) OR you did all the normal cc placement tests and went into a lottery to see who got to be enrolled under the cc.  Saved a ton of $.  Hair is a good gig and I recommend keeping the license current if for no other reason you get to buy hair products wholesale.  It is hard and takes a long time to make decent money at hair.  A long time.  You don't get sick time, vacation time, you work before/after all holidays, its hard work and horrible on your body.  I left because I wanted more stability and didn't like dealing with no clients = no $.  I have a friend that has kept doing it and she is turning 50.  It scares her because she doesn't know how she is going to retire or what happens if she gets sick.  I got a job w my current employer as a lark and it was only a 9 month position but now I have been here for almost 30 years.  I feel incredibly lucky.

How is this possible, Natalie?  In my head you’re only 30, 35 tops.  Actually, all of you are 30 in my head. And cute as the dickens. 

[Natalie68]

3 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

How is this possible, Natalie?  In my head you’re only 30, 35 tops.  Actually, all of you are 30 in my head. And cute as the dickens. 

HA!  Thank you!  I am going to be 50 in September.  I CANNOT BELIEVE I AM THIS OLD!  I work around kids so my um, language is on par.  I am trying to clean it up.  Its a struggle.  

[Sew Sumi]

Welp, Tori can put away that useless education diploma now that she's knocked up. 

[Fuzzysox]

Big announcement: Tori is pregnant!

[MargeGunderson]

9 hours ago, TresGatos said:

It reminds me of the Buffy the Vampire Slayer episode, Fear, Itself, where in the end the demon who has been tormenting them turns out to be a teeny tiny demon and they pick it up and make fun of it and then they drop it and Buffy's foot comes down.

Aw, who’s a little fear demon?!

[Jynnan tonnix]

26 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

How is this possible, Natalie?  In my head you’re only 30, 35 tops.  Actually, all of you are 30 in my head. And cute as the dickens. 

Haha! I love you, LATETOTHEPARTY, Even though I don't know whether I fell in you "head group". I might be 59, but I still have a hard time feeling over 35. Well, maybe 40 now that I have the granddaughter.

[McManda]

Poor Michael.

If it's not enough stress to want to get pregnant and be unable I'd be heartbroken to see all my siblings get pregnant before the wedding dress was even off. 

[Temperance]

41 minutes ago, Fuzzysox said:

Big announcement: Tori is pregnant!

Surprise, Surprise.

[BitterApple]

Tori is pregnant. Quelle surprise.

I hope things go smoothly for her, but my reaction is meh, whatever. I'd be more impressed if she'd waited a year or two.

Edited May 11, 2018 by BitterApple

[latetotheparty]

58 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

Haha! I love you, LATETOTHEPARTY, Even though I don't know whether I fell in you "head group". I might be 59, but I still have a hard time feeling over 35. Well, maybe 40 now that I have the granddaughter.

You are totally in my head group.  Every single one of you. Pfft on calendars,

[Jeanne222]

I'm kind of disappointed.  Was hoping it might be Michael.  Happy for Tori.  Sad for Michael.  Fingers crossed she'll be next.

[Lunera]

Tori looked pretty pregnant in a picture Carlin posted of her about 2 weeks ago but I was kinda hoping it was a surprise about Michael, too.

[Triple P]

Where do Tori and Bobby live? I think they live in a trailer, but I don't watch the show, so not sure about their housing situation.

In my head they live in a small Airstream trailer parked on her parents property...

[riverblue22]

3 minutes ago, Triple P said:

Where do Tori and Bobby live? I think they live in a trailer, but I don't watch the show, so not sure about their housing situation.

In my head they live in a small Airstream trailer parked on her parents property...

They moved to an apartment in a city where Bobby got a job with a church.  Memphis maybe?

[Sew Sumi]

Nashville. If they moved, it was only this past week since Tori had to finish up her classes. They may still be in Bobby's apartment for the time being.

[BitterApple]

I wonder how Tori's going to adjust to being in Nashville with a newborn and no family close by. 

I'm kind of surprised Bobby didn't want to relocate back to Florida. His parents seem pretty well off and his dad strikes me as the kind of guy who has connections as far as job hook-ups. 

[Heathen]

Does Bobby give off a strong Randy Travis vibe for anyone else? It's the long face and high forehead. I'd say a Lyle Lovett vibe too, but he's too cool for Mr. Magna Cumme Laude. 

[becca3891]

17 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Okay. So I suppose it's one of these: 

1. The Bates parents never bought into the strict gender role thing that the schmucky Duggar parents spouted ad nauseum (men earning the money, women doing everything else).
2. The Bates parents bought into it but exposure to a wider world via the evil television industry not only pulled them out of poverty, it helped them dump the "women can't go earn money" idea in favor of, well, making money.
3. The Bates daughters have married and their new headships allow their wives to work. (I have no clue who Josie is or if she's married; if not, then her headship Dad, he who is on the frigging Board of Directors of Gothard's organization, has allowed her to work.)

I do have a question. Does Gothard's organization teach those strict "women belong in the home and must not have outside jobs ever ever ever" gender roles? I've read articles about the fundie/quiverfull movement in general that indicate it's a real thing that when coupled with the idea of women as mega-breeders has led to lots of huge families living in poverty with mothers/wives stressed and overworked to the max. But I don't know if IBLP pushes that strict prohibition against women having jobs.

Yes, Gothard and his organization definitely teach this. 

5 hours ago, McManda said:

Poor Michael.

If it's not enough stress to want to get pregnant and be unable I'd be heartbroken to see all my siblings get pregnant before the wedding dress was even off. 

She's so sweet and it's always evident how much she adores children/babies. It has to be difficult, especially when Gothard teaches that infertility, like all health problems, is caused by sin. I really hope she doesn't buy into that anymore. It's hard enough without all that garbage.

Oh my gosh, just watched the Jill Rodrigues video. I grew up in a church that fully believes in demons and hell (although I no longer believe) and this still made my jaw drop. How the heck do you believe it is a real, physical place that can actually be recorded, in the center of the earth? That is an outrageous level of crazy even within the fundie world, the type of primitive thinking that ended for most people with the advent of modern science. A tiny demon perched on a microphone? Fundies believe that demons are everywhere and can inhabit people, so why was it only visible because it came from hell? Why can't we see them all the time? 

[Turquoise]

16 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Nashville. If they moved, it was only this past week since Tori had to finish up her classes. They may still be in Bobby's apartment for the time being.

I live in Nashville. It's a trendy spot right now and rents have raised considerably just in the four years I've been here. I can't imagine what they'll be able to afford.

[Pasha Kitty]

On 5/10/2018 at 10:19 AM, BitterApple said:

I saw a picture of Josie's work on her salon's Instagram page and she's really good. If she sticks with it and builds up her clientele, she could be making great money. 

Bitter Apple, would you please post the link to the Instagram page?  Thanks.

[BitterApple]

8 minutes ago, Pasha Kitty said:

Bitter Apple, would you please post the link to the Instagram page?  Thanks.

There's not a ton of pictures, but this is the one I was referring to. I would totally get this cut and color if I could pull off blonde hair:

https://www.instagram.com/p/Bfvws9OH4ea/?hl=en

[GeeGolly]

Just looked through Josie's Instagram. Their courting guidelines have loosened up quite a bit since Zach, Erin and Alyssa.

[Fuzzysox]

58 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Just looked through Josie's Instagram. Their courting guidelines have loosened up quite a bit since Zach, Erin and Alyssa.

I just looked at it too. I'm going to say that Josie will be the next one engaged after those pictures. Those two are way toooooo close for comfort.

[zoomama]

3 hours ago, Turquoise said:

I live in Nashville. It's a trendy spot right now and rents have raised considerably just in the four years I've been here. I can't imagine what they'll be able to afford.

turquoise, i am heading there this summer to visit my nephew.....

[Turquoise]

12 hours ago, zoomama said:

turquoise, i am heading there this summer to visit my nephew.....

Hope you enjoy it! There's a lot to do in the area. 

[DragonFaerie]

LOOK!  A female in a regular tshirt and JEANS with a tool!! Do you think Ben looks at how far his sisters have come and then looks at his wife's family and is like WTF did I get myself into?

[Nysha]

Unless he likes his wife in dresses and submissive to him.

[BitterApple]

I think Bin definitely has a few regrets. If you scroll through the Seewald's Instagram, there's a video of the older kids hanging out with their friends, playing cards, pool and video games. Now contrast that to Jessa telling Bin to "grow up" and shoving his XBox in the closet. She doesn't strike me as a particularly fun woman to be married to, and that would suck for such a young guy.

[Fuzzysox]

I think Michael Seewald should take the blame for pushing his son into getting married young. It's not the 50's, 60's or the 70's anymore when people got married right after high school. I think waiting, going to school, meeting new people, experiencing new things is a must before you settle down. I tell my twins not to rush to get married because you don't want to live with regrets.

[Sew Sumi]

Michael and Guinn were 19 and 20 when wed. His essay was no surprise when you realize they were 20 year old parents themselves.

[madpsych78]

Was Michael younger than Guinn?

[awaken]

I could see if Ben and Jessa were out experiencing the life of 20-something’s together, but heir life seems so stifling for a young guy who never had the chance to experience much yet.  I was 19 when I married, and we grew up together and did all kinds of fun stuff (And WORKED REAL JOBS and finished a 4 yr degree) before having kids. 

[BitterApple]

15 minutes ago, awaken said:

I could see if Ben and Jessa were out experiencing the life of 20-something’s together, but heir life seems so stifling for a young guy who never had the chance to experience much yet.  I was 19 when I married, and we grew up together and did all kinds of fun stuff (And WORKED REAL JOBS and finished a 4 yr degree) before having kids. 

I agree. I know couples who married young but they weren't sticks in the mud. They went to concerts, traveled, went out for drinks with friends, attended sporting events etc., and they usually didn't have kids right away. I can't imagine being 21 and spending all my time sitting on my in-laws' sectional.

Edited May 17, 2018 by BitterApple

[GeeGolly]

7 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Michael and Guinn were 19 and 20 when wed. His essay was no surprise when you realize they were 20 year old parents themselves.

Except a typical parent wants more and better for their children. I'm guessing that many parents that have married young would share the pros and cons and let the kids make more informed decisions. However in this case Ben wanted a quick marriage as much as his parents did.

[Heathen]

8 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

Except a typical parent wants more and better for their children. I'm guessing that many parents that have married young would share the pros and cons and let the kids make more informed decisions. However in this case Ben wanted a quick marriage as much as his parents did.

Judging from the fundies I've known, the rush to marriage was partly so they wouldn't be tempted to have sex out of wedlock, and partly because marriage is (allegedly) for adults, and fundies always seem to rush to (alleged) adulthood. Overly religious people of any stripe always seem old before their time. 

(I say allegedly because the many fundies I've known are the least curious, most emotionally stunted and immature people I've ever met. But they're married "Christians" and I'm not, so by fundie logic, they're better than me.) 

[ginger90]

7 hours ago, madpsych78 said:

Was Michael younger than Guinn?

What I found:

 

Michael A. Seewald - born on November 20, 1974

Guinnevere "Guinn" M. Eaton - born on July 14, 1974