S07.E12: Red Rose

[Joan van Snark]

So what was the outcome of the meeting with the other chapters.  My head just goes blank during any scenes dealing with inter-club/inter-gang business.  I just can't keep up with who is allied with whom, which one double-crossed that one.  I have no idea what was going on with that scene with the Irish.  But it almost seemed as if they were letting Jax off for killing Jury, but others are saying that Jax basically agreed to make sure SAMCRO votes for his death?  Can someone fill me in on exactly what went on during that meeting?  I guess if Jax knows he is going to lose the Mayhem vote, it explains why he just left Unser and Gemma's dead bodies laying there.  

 

At this point Jax is a certified soulless serial killer who has risked the lives of his beloved 'brothers' time and again for his own selfish revenge fantasies.  I think the club would be in 100% better position with Chibs as president.  

[xls]

 

 

I get that Kurt Sutter wanted his wife to have a grand exit befitting such an important character, but Gemma just kept talking and telling Jax it was okay so much that it just looked like Katey was hamming it up. After a while I thought 1) people with actual Alzheimer's die faster than this, but mostly 2) why did they write it so that Gemma gets to dictate the terms of her own death? THAT felt particularly dissatisfying. Gemma did NOT deserve to be at peace with any of this.

Cause she's a manipulator to the end. 

[WatchrTina]

Tara died because fucking Unser gave Gemma bad information and Gemma is a fucking psychopath.  So don't RIP Unser.  You deserved that.

 

Juice killed that nice cop that was supposed to be protecting Tara, all to protect Gemma the fucking psychopath.  Then he helped cook up the lie about the Chinese that led to Jax torturing an innocent man to death.  He personally killed Henry Lin who he KNOWS had nothing to do with Tara's death.  And by starting the gang war with the Chinese he is responsible for the deaths of Bobby and all the Diosa girls, countless Chinese gang members, Jury, and Jury's son.  So don't RIP Juice.  You deserved that.

 

Gemma.  She killed Tara and is responsible for all the deaths listed above AND John Teller.  She died in a rose garden.  She should have died in a fire.

 

This show has made me heartless.

Edited December 4, 2014 by WatchrTina

[jester]

Ok Sutter we get it. The "cancer" Unser has suffered from all these seasons is Gemma and Jax, and he finally lost the fight. So subtle. Ugh I hate this show.

 

I love Theo Rossi, and I think he has been fantastic even in these last few seasons where things have been such crap. I'm glad he got to be put out of his misery.

 

Im so ready for this to be done. I made the mistake of watching some of Season 1 and 2 again and so much potential just went down the drain. Not sure where Sutter got lost.

[terrymct]

So what was the outcome of the meeting with the other chapters.  My head just goes blank during any scenes dealing with inter-club/inter-gang business.  

 

Everyone agreed that Jax out and out murdered Jury, despite his lame claim of self defense.  Jax agreed to get his chapter to vote 100% in a mayhem vote, which is to say that they vote to kill him.  Jax got them to agree to change an unwritten rule, which is probably the one about no black members although this wasn't stated explicitly.

 

 

I love Theo Rossi, and I think he has been fantastic even in these last few seasons where things have been such crap. I'm glad he got to be put out of his misery.

 

I was thinking about Juice's last days and the whole Otto in jail arc.  Damn if Sutter doesn't seem to enjoy portraying prison assaults.  Those two characters were probably assaulted more than all the occurrences of assault in a year in an actual prison.

Edited December 3, 2014 by terrymct

[jrlr]

Once again no reaosn for this episode to be so long.

 

Did take the wind  out of the death scene by Gemma basically giving him permission to kill her.    I guess no one in Oregon reports gun shots.

 

I hope before Jax dies he gets the paper work in order so his boys are legally given to Wendy.

I think the boys will automatically go to Wendy because didn't Tara have Jax sign some papers last season that were supposed to be one thing (divorce?) but were really about custody?

 

This series has gotten me to the point that I don't give a fuck about ANYONE on it - except maybe Chibs, who seems to be the only one left with a brain.  Wendy was never brain surgeon material, but she was unusually dense in this episode, never suspecting that something really bad was going down.  As for Wendy and Jax fucking, don't forget that the first time (since high school) that Tara and Jax fucked, it was with the DEA stalker/agent that they both shot lying dead next to the bed.  

 

I don't think Jax's limp was a mistake that just got left in - that would be the laziest fucking filmmaking on the planet.  I just want to know what it could possibly portend at this late date.  With only one episode left, it's highly unlikely that we're going to learn that he has that rarest of diseases: aggressively spreading knee cancer that  kills its victims in seven days.

 

Gemma - UGH!  The whole fucking episode was a stagepiece for her - Unser loves her, Chucky loves her, Nero apparently still loves her (I HATED the scene where he just sat on her bed all tormented and grieving).  That death scene was absurd - I half expected Gemma to ask Jax if she could change into her old prom dress before she spent an hour blathering amongst the roses.  Redemption?  I think not.  Just another Gemma-centric episode, salvaged slightly by the presence of the awesome Hal Holbrook (who can out-act anyone on this show, even in a ten minute scene).  

 

I agree with what someone posted above: I really would have liked Jax to kill himself right after killing Gemma.  That really should have been the end of the show. But, sigh, I guess there are still more club-related loose ends that Jax has to tied up with the various completely interchangeable gangs.  

[La Tortuga]

I've been thinking for a while that Jax has spent a good part of this season making promises about the Irish gun trade that he had no right and no leverage to make. It took a lot of work for him to get the Irish to agree to do business with August Marks, but once that relationship was forged, I didn't get the sense that Jax was still allowed to have input into how they did their business. His promises to the Mayans that he'd be able to wave his hand and make the Irish exit a profitable business relationship and follow Jax's new suggestion didn't make sense. So when he made the proposal to Connor, and Connor basically told him to go fuck himself, I smiled. That's what should have happened, because Jax's way of doing business is stupid.

 

But then suddenly it was revealed that Connor was skimming profits, and one of the Kings found out about it and conveniently decided the best way to handle it was to have Jax kill the guy in exchange for getting in bed with the Mayans. So Jax got what he wanted by the skin of his goddamned teeth. The show has been trying so hard to paint Jax as this intelligent guy with grand plans and strategies, and it turns out the only way they work is when the writers can engineer a crazy coincidence. Is this what they call failing upwards? It's some Deus ex machina crap, that's for sure, and it pisses me right off.

[DrSpaceman]

I was hoping Gemma would start singing in the garden and that would put Jax over the top and then he would shoot her, just to stop her from singing.  Would have been fitting. 

 

I have predicted all season this is going to end with all or most of them dead.  Maybe not all of them will die but most of the major characters are going to be gone at the end of the finale. 

 

Jax is a horrible leader.  He was much worse than anyone before him.  I guess that was the point, he became what he hated and what is real father hated about being president and the club, but still, he pretty much destroyed any credibility the Charming chapter of SAMCRO has with anyone. 

 

really though even with all these dealings Jax has to "tie up", and I too have lost track of them all, how long do you think it will be after Jax is gone before the gangs are fighting again?  About a day.  Same story, new people, more killing. 

 

Tensions mount and truths are revealed as Jax is forced to make a major decision.

 

Such a funny description.  Couldn't this apply to pretty much any episode of SOA?

[Ottis]

I have predicted all season this is going to end with all or most of them dead.  Maybe not all of them will die but most of the major characters are going to be gone at the end of the finale.

 

 

I think that's endemic to the fact Sutter has always said SOA was based on Hamlet. Almost everyone dies.

 

I don't think Jax's limp was a mistake that just got left in - that would be the laziest fucking filmmaking on the planet.  I just want to know what it could possibly portend at this late date.

 

 

I haven't read Hamlet in forever, but I wondered if a main character had some kind of injury near the end.

 

I've been surprised at all the talk by Katey and Sutter about her death scene, and how "calm" it was. What else could it have been? You couldn't have Jax tearing around the country in pursuit of his fleeing mother, or battling her with a fork in another kitchen. It *had* to involve acceptance on Gemma's part, because in the end, that's who she was. And Jax really didn't want to have to do it, but in order to "make whole" all the deaths that resulted from Gemma, he had to. There was no other way, and I don't know why Katey or Sutter would think anyone would assume otherwise.

 

ax is a horrible leader.  He was much worse than anyone before him.  I guess that was the point, he became what he hated and what is real father hated about being president and the club, but still, he pretty much destroyed any credibility the Charming chapter of SAMCRO has with anyone.

 

 

I've been thinking about that question of what was the point of the entire series? And I still don't know for sure. It has always been The Sopranos w/bikes, so the idea that, despite all the "normal" aspects of these characters we see, they are bad people who are hoisted by theor own petards, rings true. But unlike The Sopranos, Sutter seems to be saying that none of the SOA gang had any choice, that this life was all they had known, all they could ever have been and steered their every action (including keeping Jax from escaping even when he wanted to). And I don't agree with that. 

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ottis

[Febgirl]

So when I'm watching, I often re-watch (still need to do that) so I can focus on one character's arc etc.

The live watch last night, my eye was drawn to Jax the whole time.  

The eerie calmness as he was essentially saying his goodbyes was really striking. I just hope that everyone around him gets that Jackie Boy ain't coming back from this. The only false note was the sex with Wendy.  I've read other posters say that he'll knock her up, but if memory serves, when she first came back a few seasons ago, she told Gemma she was "fixed".

 As for the Mayhem-- I don't think he'll die via a Mayhem vote-- he'll be stripped of his patch, and banished from the club-- Cast out of Eden as it were, wearing the Mark of Cain, and wandering. 

 As for everything else,  I didn't think Sutter had it in him to have Gemma killed, but as others have written, it was her final act of manipulation to goad her son into doing it.

 I'm sure I'll post more as I continue to process.

[Jazzy24]

So Gemma, Unser, and Juice finally died, eh good riddence maybe they all suffer in hell especially that narcissistic monster Gemma.

I totally forgot about the show being on and I'm not going to watch it I will just take everyone's word for it.

And I'm still not satisfied because it should be Tara taking her children and starting over nah but she had to die and I'm still pissed off.

[shanti]

Jax should've been like TWD's Rick Grimes, when he killed NotBobtheCop from Rape Hospital.

 

Shot Gemma in the head, then tell her corpse to STFU.

I was thinking the same thing after Gemma just kept talking... but unfortunately Jax Teller was no Rick Grimes!

[Bubbetv]

Um. Cloying stale melodrama. With better camera work than the usual afternoon suds.

Gemma's last loving support of her baby boy. Check.

Juice's last loving duty to the club. Check.

Unser's last loving vaguely cop gesture, Son. Check.

Marilyn Manson sweet whispers to Juice. Check.

Oh and the perfectly drizzled blood on Jax's pristine sneakers!! Check.

This make a long story even lonnnngggger episode should have been called, "lost element of surprise"

Only thing left to check, because it's the most cloying, will be when it's Chibbs that does the ultimate mayhem.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Bubbetv

[gesundheit]

I did enjoy the Chiklis cameo. It seemed a little silly that all 5 other main actors from The Shield had appeared but he hadn't. 

 

Charisma Carpenter's cameo seemed about as random as whats-her-name the waitress from earlier in this season, but at least the nursing home receptionist had a function.

 

Did Jax ever find out Gemma's complicity in JT's death? It's all so far away at this point. Not that it would matter. 

[DrSpaceman]

I think that's endemic to the fact Sutter has always said SOA was based on Hamlet. Almost everyone dies.

 

 

I haven't read Hamlet in forever, but I wondered if a main character had some kind of injury near the end.

 

I've been surprised at all the talk by Katey and Sutter about her death scene, and how "calm" it was. What else could it have been? You couldn't have Jax tearing around the country in pursuit of his fleeing mother, or battling her with a fork in another kitchen. It *had* to involve acceptance on Gemma's part, because in the end, that's who she was. And Jax really didn't want to have to do it, but in order to "make whole" all the deaths that resulted from Gemma, he had to. There was no other way, and I don't know why Katey or Sutter would think anyone would assume otherwise.

 

 

I've been thinking about that question of what was the point of the entire series? And I still don't know for sure. It has always been The Sopranos w/bikes, so the idea that, despite all the "normal" aspects of these characters we see, they are bad people who are hoisted by theor own petards, rings true. But unlike The Sopranos, Sutter seems to be saying that none of the SOA gang had any choice, that this life was all they had known, all they could ever have been and steered their every action (including keeping Jax from escaping even when he wanted to). And I don't agree with that. 

 

 

I think the difference between this series and the Sopranos is most of the characters here made bad decisions that caused their own demise as members of SAMCRO.  They destroyed their own club.  In the Sopranos, most of the pressures were external.  For all the criticism of the ending of the Sopranos, the way it was written was at least unique in terms of giving a vision of what was happening and would continue to happen to the mafia family.  Various factors were all coming together to lead to its demise.  Different business models and the extension of corporate america rather than mom and pop places.  Some of them were caught in the legal net.  Tony's uncle doesn't die but just becomes demented.  Christopher becomes more interested in Hollywood and the image of himself than the actual role he plays in the organization, so Tony kills him.  Tony's kids aren't cut out for the same life, probably, certainly his son just didn't have the personality for it.  For him it wasn't a choice, and Tony was fine with it, Anthony was just NOT cut out to be part of the organization.  That argues against the idea you are "born into it".  The sopranos was much more nuanced and varied in terms of the stories.   For SAMCRO, its very different, they just made bad decisions, double crossed everyone, took huge risks, they destroyed themselves.  SAMCRO was constantly looking at the short term, except for Jax in the end of last season when he was trying to make them "legitimate" with porn and illicit but legal business.  Then that all got thrown out when his wife dies.  Tony really was good at keeping everything he could in line and making sure things did not get out of control.  No one at SAMCRO could do that. 

[MitaJo]

It's hard to believe that supremely selfish Gemma would encourage him to shoot.

That was kind of a selfish act in itself though. She was completely alone. She didn't have Jax anymore, she lost the grandsons, Nero was out, the club was done with her. She clearly wasn't going to off herself, so she got Jax to do it. Had she really been arrested, I think she would have made it so that the cops killed her.

So what was the outcome of the meeting with the other chapters.  My head just goes blank during any scenes dealing with inter-club/inter-gang business.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who was lost. I can barely understand what the hell they're saying half the time, with the various accents (Chibs more than anyone else) or low-speaking voices, the names get confusing and I don't know who they're talking ABOUT half the time. I just hope that someone explains it later on. I rewound that scene with Jax and the first Irish guy so many times, I finally just gave up trying to understand what was happening. Was he the one laying on the floor when the Sons went to speak to the second Irish guy? I'm glad that you all explained that "Mayhem" meeting because while I had a general idea of what it meant, I didn't know it was ultimately death, though Jax's actions throughout kind of hinted that he was going to die and he knew it.

 

Say what you will, I really hope that Jax survives. Even after all the stupid, evil, murderous things he's done, I still like him.

Edited December 3, 2014 by MitaJo

[fellini]

Why did the writers make the character Juice such a bitch? They showed him getting raped twice and he kept acting like he couldn't just escape and move on with his life. Did Juice always act that stupid in other seasons ?

[Artsda]

Why did the writers make the character Juice such a bitch? They showed him getting raped twice and he kept acting like he couldn't just escape and move on with his life. Did Juice always act that stupid in other seasons ?

Yes, nobody would have cared if his father was black and this entire destruction of his life started with his letting himself be blackmailed over that.

[stacyasp]

I think the bylaw Jax wanted change has something to do with family members being able to join SAMCRO, so his sons won't follow in his footsteps

[TigerLynx]

Let's get this MoFo done.

 

 

I agree.  As much as I wanted Gemma, Juice, and Unser dead, it would have had more impact two or three seasons ago.  Once Tara found those letters, Endgame should have really begun.  Donna, Piney, Opie, Clay, Tara = dead, and Jax was still waffling around.

 

I don’t know why Jax wants JT’s manuscript now.  Jax should be angry at JT for doing nothing but writing that stupid thing, waiting to be killed, and leaving Jax behind in the MC world that JT had decided was so horrible and wrong.

 

Please let Wendy (although Wendy lost some points tonight for screwing Jax) and Nero take all three boys to the farm, and never return.

 

Please let Venus get the hell away from these guys to.  Maybe she can meet up with that nice trucker Milo, and get a happier ending than Shane did.  Especially since Boyd and Raylan are probably both going to be toast over in Harlan very soon.

Edited December 3, 2014 by TigerLynx

[Raachel2008]

I don't think I've ever actually written or spoken the word 'cunt', but Gemma is a fucking cunt. Bitch didn't have the guts to go to the police, or kill herself, instead she made her own son kill her, because that is what she wanted, not what was better for her son. Not only Gemma sentenced Jax to death when she killed Tara and lied about it - and Jax started his whole wrongly directed vengeance -, but now she made her son live with the guilty of killing his own mother, which is what will really destroy him - hence Nero saying 'I'm trying to save Jax'.

 

Jax knows he is going to die, either by the hand of someone else or his own, but he knows he is not seeing his kids agains.

 

I really want Nero and Wendy to raise the kids far far far away from Charming. Maybe Tig and Venus can join them in the farm and stay there, too.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Raachel2008

[Febgirl]

I don't think I've ever actually written or spoken the word 'cunt', but Gemma is a fucking cunt. Bitch didn't have the guts to go to the police, or kill herself, instead she made her own son kill her, because that is what she wanted, not what was better for her son. Not only Gemma sentenced Jax to death when she killed Tara and lied about it - and Jax started his whole wrongly directed vengeance -, but now she made her son live with the guilty of killing his own mother, which is what will really destroy him - hence Nero saying 'I'm trying to save Jax'.

 

Jax knows he is going to die, either by the hand of someone else or his own, but he knows he is not seeing his kids agains.

 

I really want Nero and Wendy to raise the kids far far far away from Charming. Maybe Tig and Venus can join them in the farm and stay there, too.

In my frustrated writer's mind, I envision Tig and Venus getting married on the farm with Nero walking her down the aisle and giving her away. She's "familia", after all.

[TigerLynx]

If Chibbs becomes President, I hope he does a better job than JT, Clay, and Jax did.  Chibbs, like Alvarez, seems to understand that business is business, personal is something else, and letting emotions rule you is dumb.  Also, you are either in or out in this life, and once you get in, getting out is almost impossible.  Nero is lucky his gang is letting him walk away.

[Snookums]

Juice killed that nice cop that was supposed to be protecting Tara, all to protect Gemma the fucking psychopath.  The he helped cook of the lie about the Chinese that led to Jax torturing an innocent man to death.  He personally killed Henry Lin who he KNOWS had nothing to do with Tara's death.  And by starting the gang war with the Chinese he is responsible for the death's of Bobby and all the Diosa girls, countless Chinese gang members, Jury, and Jury's son.  So don't RIP Juice.  You deserved that.

 

 

He also shot the motel clerk in a fit of paranoia. Juice, no matter his baby face, isn't an innocent. He just lets his emotions and need for structure guide his horrible decisions rather than revenge or greed. I felt bad that he felt he had to go out as a good soldier because that's "all he had left," but he was one of the few guys in the SoA with brains or education (he was the computer expert and ran his own business) so it's not like he was one of the old guys, too entrenched to start over, or Jax, with two kids, one of whom was critically ill for over half of his life, a GED, and an extensive record. Juice had the skills to leave, to create a new identity, start over. But he couldn't let go of that noxious, poisonous concept of "family" that this group pimps so hard, and it killed him. 

[Ottis]

I think the difference between this series and the Sopranos is most of the characters here made bad decisions that caused their own demise as members of SAMCRO.  They destroyed their own club.  In the Sopranos, most of the pressures were external.  For all the criticism of the ending of the Sopranos, the way it was written was at least unique in terms of giving a vision of what was happening and would continue to happen to the mafia family.  Various factors were all coming together to lead to its demise.  Different business models and the extension of corporate america rather than mom and pop places.  Some of them were caught in the legal net.  Tony's uncle doesn't die but just becomes demented.  Christopher becomes more interested in Hollywood and the image of himself than the actual role he plays in the organization, so Tony kills him.  Tony's kids aren't cut out for the same life, probably, certainly his son just didn't have the personality for it.  For him it wasn't a choice, and Tony was fine with it, Anthony was just NOT cut out to be part of the organization.  That argues against the idea you are "born into it".  The sopranos was much more nuanced and varied in terms of the stories.   For SAMCRO, its very different, they just made bad decisions, double crossed everyone, took huge risks, they destroyed themselves.  SAMCRO was constantly looking at the short term, except for Jax in the end of last season when he was trying to make them "legitimate" with porn and illicit but legal business.  Then that all got thrown out when his wife dies.  Tony really was good at keeping everything he could in line and making sure things did not get out of control.  No one at SAMCRO could do that.

 

 

So basically we agree, based on what we were shown. My question is, what does Sutter want us to take away from his SOA creation? Because it feels like he is saying these people had no choice, but (as just noted) we don't agree with that. SOA members clearly had a number of choices, and kept making bad ones. If Sutter is saying this was in essence all destined, then that is a load of crap. And I can't figure out what else he might be saying.

 

The live watch last night, my eye was drawn to Jax the whole time. The eerie calmness as he was essentially saying his goodbyes was really striking. I just hope that everyone around him gets that Jackie Boy ain't coming back from this.

 

 

Chibs seemed to. And BTW, Jax actually at times looked almost relieved that his journey would soon be over.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Ottis

[BetyBee]

Did Jax say he wanted the unwritten by-law abolished or to be enforced? For some reason I came away thinking that he was asking the council if his own club could carry out the mayhem and kill him. But everything I've heard or read about this episode seems to point to him wanting to abolish racism in the gangs. I'll have to watch again.

 

ETA - I think Jax's new limp is meaningful. Perhaps it will cause him to spill JT's newly repaired bike at just the right moment and he'll be able to take himself out?

 

I see Artsda had the same thought I did about Jax wanting his own club to do his Mayhem.

Edited December 3, 2014 by BetyBee

[Pickles Aplenty]

I thought all three characters had appropriate deaths.  Unser lived for Gemma, so it was only fitting that he died for Gemma.  He wasted his entire life and he knew it when he looked at her and said, "This is all I have left."  Ugh...pathetic and sad ending for a pathetic and sad character.  That's Unser.

 

Juice's death was somehow noble; that's why I thought it was actually a touching moment when Manson said "You went out good, sweetheart" after stabbing him in the neck.  I know it's an odd moment to get teary-eyed over, but seeing as how Juice has been a miserable fuckup for several seasons now, it was nice to see him make peace with his own death and with his place in the club.  That pie looked cheap as shit, but I've never seen Juice look so content as when he finished it.  What a moment.

 

As for Gemma...yes, it would have been more of a punishment for Jax to let her live with nothing left, but I agree with who ever said she would have found a way to get the cops to kill her if Jax hadn't done the deed.  Even when it came to her death, Gemma was a master manipulator.  The little speech she gave Jax about being who they are and doing what they do- as Jax aimed a gun at the back of her head and shot her- was truly chilling to me.  The whole time I kept thinking, "This is who you are?  The kind of people who brutally stab/shoot your loved ones in the back of the head?  Do you not see anything twisted and completely FUCKED about that?!"  Of course, Gemma must have had an inkling of just how fucked it was, since she requested to die in the place where she played like a good little girl, the last time in her life she had been at least a somewhat decent person.  Jesus, what a death.

 

Loved Hal Holbrook in his little scene, wanted to smack Wendy for fucking the dude who pumped her full of drugs and made her fall off the wagon.  I have always had sympathy for Wendy and I know she is lonely, but really?  You still want that scumbag after all he's done to you?  All right, then.

[Snookums]

wanted to smack Wendy for fucking the dude who pumped her full of drugs and made her fall off the wagon.  I have always had sympathy for Wendy and I know she is lonely, but really?  You still want that scumbag after all he's done to you?  All right, then.

 

 

As frustrated as I get with Wendy for even speaking to any of these people (can't forget that Gemma tried to get her to OD in the hospital back in season one) I think that was more a goodbye then a "let's start over" fuck. As dense as she seemed in this one I think it was consciously willed rather then inherent. She didn't want to know and she was right not to want to. It was no accident that they weren't facing each other--for both of them it was a Goodbye To All That. Tomorrow she and the boys go to the farm, and Jax--goes away.

[ryebread]

I think the club would be in 100% better position with Chibs as president.  

I agree.  One small detail to attend to first, though - his bike would need to be retrofit with a sidecar.  For the translator.  I love me some Chibs, but damned if I know what he's saying 90% of the time.

[Dirndl]

As someone who only watched the end of this episode to finally see Gemma die, the actual death was disappointing. Gemma got to say her goodbyes and make the final decision. I hate it! She should have suffered.

 

And then Jax: Manipulated by mommy - again - and then of course sleeping with Wendy not only in the house he shared with Tara but also their bed. (I only read about that one. I stopped watching when I saw Wendy in her white nightgown. Sutter makes it just so easy.) Jax is pathetic and disgusting and I want him to die next.

 

A lot of people want Wendy to take care of the boys. I don't. I want them to end up with a loving, normal adoptive family with lots of money for extensive therapy.

 

Oh, and isn't Wendy a lesbian? I remember her telling Gemma about it.

Edited December 3, 2014 by Dirndl

[Racj82]

Wow, I actually got a little teary at Gemma's death scene. But you can still rot in that garden, biyotch.

Wasn't expecting Unser to be a casualty...kind of sad, but he was being stubborn and/or suicidal.

RIP, Juice...loyal to the club til the end. You were a bad guy, though; you get all your goodwill because you are played by the awesome Theo Rossi.

I'm actually not surprised Jax did Wendy after all that; he deals with pain that way and I think he knows how the mayhem vote is going to go. BUT...let's hope he didn't bareback another future club member into her!

So next week, I'm guessing we get President Chibs? Will Althea quit the force and become his old lady? Will she become the new Unser? Will Nero and Wendy raise the kids at the farm? Will Tig shack up with Venus? Will Brook tell Rat she is pregnant and they need to get married? Will Barofsky die? Will Marks? Will Tyler (don't kill Tyler, man)?Will the DA arrest everyone? What WAS the unwritten rule Jax wanted abolished? So many questions!

Sadly, those are bunch of questions I don't care about.

[Lila82]

I read Wendy like this: she's living in the house she used to share with Jax, the same house where she almost died and simultaneously killed Abel.  Yet, it's the house where Jax could have a family with another woman, a woman with education and money and who raised Abel as her own.  Now Tara's gone and Wendy's raising Tara's son in that house.  Abel knows the truth about his birth mother.  Wendy hates herself for the overdose as much as Jax did/does.  Plus, Gemma's gone.  Poor girl.  She thinks they're starting over; Jax is saying goodbye. 

 

Re: the bylaw

 

Part of me wants it so Thomas and Abel are forbidden from joining the club.  The other part wants the club fully integrated as a tribute to Juice.   His story would have had a very different ending if his race wasn't an issue.

 

 

 

If Chibbs becomes President, I hope he does a better job than JT, Clay, and Jax did.  Chibbs, like Alvarez, seems to understand that business is business, personal is something else, and letting emotions rule you is dumb.

 

 

I would watch a spin-off of Chibbs and Alvarez strutting around their shared city block complex and cleaning up NoCal.  Ah, Alvarez.  I never thought he'd outlast half the club.

[monakane]

 

As someone who only watched the end of this episode to finally see Gemma die, the actual death was disappointing. Gemma got to say her goodbyes and make the final decision. I hate it! She should have suffered

 

I agree!  I would have preferred to see her screaming over her son's lifeless body knowing it was her actions that led to his death.  She did not rate a quick death in a beautiful garden.

[Dusty]

I've been waiting for the end of Gemma for so long and I'm just disappointed. First of all, I get that Gemma has done some messed up things during the course of her life but really.  Killing Tara and then setting in motion for all the deaths that happened THIS season and Unser and Nero are still trying to save her ass?!?!?!  I can understand Nero's position because I do believe he wanted to save Gemma to save Jax and not because of Gemma.  But Unser...really?  Are you freaking kidding me?!  Poor Juice got the death that he did and Gemma gets to have a nice little chat with her father and die the death that she essentially chose.  Tara fought for her life and died so brutally (hey Gemma, remember when Tara was there for after your gang rape?), that Chinese guy was tortured to death because of Gemma's lie, and a bunch of other people died for absolutely no reason.  It's just bullshit.  I hated it.  There was no satisfaction at all.  Gemma wanted to die because she knows she lost everything.  In the end Gemma still got what she wanted.

 

And Wendy. My god I'm just so disappointed in her.  I was okay with her taking care of the kids before but now I don't want her to even though she's most likely going to.  I'm not sure if she's supposed to be some sort of triumph story.  Starting out almost killing her kid because she just could not stay away from drugs to getting clean and now yay! She's taking care of two kids!  So heart warming.  Except it isn't.  Sure she's not on drugs anymore but that's about all the progress that she's made.  I don't really get how she's not over Jax.  She's just as messed up as all the others.  Those kids need to start off fresh.  Away from anyone with any sort of connection to all this.

 

Oh well.  I stuck around to watch the train wreck this long and continue to be disappointed so who am I to talk.  I'm just glad there's only one episode left and then I can sit back and wait for Orphan Black to come back.

[Artsda]

I agree!  I would have preferred to see her screaming over her son's lifeless body knowing it was her actions that led to his death.  She did not rate a quick death in a beautiful garden.

 

That wouldn't be Gemma though, this is the woman who got strung up and gang raped then carried on the next day like nothing happened because she didn't do the typical thing like her rapists expected of her. Knowing her death was coming and knowing that Jax had to kill her, was more in her character. She carried on resigned at the fact this is what needed to happen. 

[ryebread]

That wouldn't be Gemma though, this is the woman who got strung up and gang raped then carried on the next day like nothing happened because she didn't do the typical thing like her rapists expected of her.

 

I've only watched this show sporadically.  Who raped Gemma?  And...I feel like this is a dumb question but, was there retaliation?

[Guest Accused Dingo]

Apparently stage 87 cancer didn't kill Uncer...a bullet did.

This episode was kind of beautiful in the brutal way this show is.

Is it weird that I wss crying when Gemma died?

[psychoticstate]

While Unser and Juice may have gotten the deaths they deserved, Gemma got off easy.  I think I would have been more satisfied, and it would have been more fitting, if Jax had walked her out to the flower garden, pointed the gun at her head and then walked away.  Let her stew in her own juices, knowing that she had no one left and nowhere to go.  Being totally alone without her son, without her grandsons and without the MC would have been the best punishment for her. 

 

I agree with others that Jax is preparing to go out.  I don't see how can NOT die next week.  I have to admit that I did snort with derisive laughter when Jax was informed at the table that killing Jury was flat out murder.  What, the other eleventy billion deaths he has caused aren't murder?  Uh, okay.   Jax is a sucky human being but the one thing he's been terrifically successful at has been murder. 

 

Any respect I regained for Wendy before last night is completely gone.  Girl, please.  As much as I appreciate seeing Jax's ass, I can't help but get squicked out at the thought of where that man's Amazing Technicolor weiner has been. 

 

If the MC wants to have a stake in some good money, invest in Jax's White Sneakers of Truth.  He must wear a new pair every day.  Imagine how much money that would bring in if the president of every MC was doing that.

 

Is it awful that I don't care much about Abel of the Corn?  He freaks me out.

 

I worry that basically everyone is going to die next week, save Nero, Wendy and the kids.

 

I wonder if Jax is going to read JT's journal/diary and realize that maybe he took himself out and follow suit? 

[ShortyMac]

I've only watched this show sporadically.  Who raped Gemma?  And...I feel like this is a dumb question but, was there retaliation?

She was gang-raped by members of LOAN (League of American Nationalists, white supremacists) in the Season 2 premiere. They did so to try to get the Sons to stop dealing guns to blacks and Hispanics. Unser found her and helped her hide it by crashing her car to make it look like she got in an accident. Gemma did not tell Clay or Jax about it until 02x10 (my favorite Gemma scene). The Sons failed with retaliation; it got most of them sent to jail on weapons charges which violated their parole.

Edited December 3, 2014 by ShortyMac

[DrSparkles]

Ok, I laughed like a loon & thought of you people with the opening, lingering shot of the big shiny white sneakers!

[Joan van Snark]

Sorry if this is boards on boards or whatever TWOP called it, but how in the world did Unser DESERVE to die????

 

Yes he told Gemma that Tara was making a deal, but that was the truth as he knew it at the time and he had no idea Gemma was going to go out and KILL her because of it!!!  And for that, he deserved to get blown away for trying to stop a homicidal maniac from shooting his mother in the back of the head?  Seemed like Unser was actually going to do the sensible thing and arrest Gemma.  I just don't get that logic at all.  Yes Unser was a meddler but he also tried to do some good and wasn't an evil person if you ask me.  He was the one that was actually trying to help Tara at one point.  

[Joan van Snark]

 

 

 

But everything I've heard or read about this episode seems to point to him wanting to abolish racism in the gangs.

 

If that's really what Jax requested, it would ring really hollow to me.  True SAMCRO doesn't seem that bad when it comes to racism, but I hardly see Jax caring enough about that to make it his 'dying' wish.  When has Jax ever been shown as some equality crusader?  And what power does Jax have to demand the club laws to be changed just because he agrees to die?

[lacEdoll]

Tara died because fucking Unser gave Gemma bad information and Gemma is a fucking psychopath.  So don't RIP Unser.  You deserved that.

 

Juice killed that nice cop that was supposed to be protecting Tara, all to protect Gemma the fucking psychopath.  The he helped cook of the lie about the Chinese that led to Jax torturing an innocent man to death.  He personally killed Henry Lin who he KNOWS had nothing to do with Tara's death.  And by starting the gang war with the Chinese he is responsible for the death's of Bobby and all the Diosa girls, countless Chinese gang members, Jury, and Jury's son.  So don't RIP Juice.  You deserved that.

 

Gemma.  She killed Tara and is responsible for all the deaths listed above AND John Teller.  She died in a rose garden.  She should have died in a fire.

 

This show has made me heartless.

I do believe that Juice killed Eli...to protect Jax from knowing the truth about his sorry a$$ mother. I think it was more of a reaction to the scene at hand when he walked in and saw that Eli was going to call it in. And he had to stop him so that Jax would never know who his mother really was. 

[spaceytraci1208]

If Chibbs becomes President, I hope he does a better job than JT, Clay, and Jax did.  Chibbs, like Alvarez, seems to understand that business is business, personal is something else, and letting emotions rule you is dumb.  Also, you are either in or out in this life, and once you get in, getting out is almost impossible.  Nero is lucky his gang is letting him walk away.

I think Alvarez walks that walk that more than anyone...was it season 1 or 2 when he killed his own son after the Mayans attacked the Sons and Clay told him the only way to squash the beef was by bloodshed on the Mayans' end? That was one of the first episodes I ever saw and I just remembered my jaw hanging open for like 5 minutes.

[Betweenyouandme]

Who the hell has been tending to that garden?

[Artsda]

 

Yes he told Gemma that Tara was making a deal, but that was the truth as he knew it at the time and he had no idea Gemma was going to go out and KILL her because of it!!!  And for that, he deserved to get blown away for trying to stop a homicidal maniac from shooting his mother in the back of the head?  Seemed like Unser was actually going to do the sensible thing and arrest Gemma.  I just don't get that logic at all.

 

Unser's been involved in the SAMCRO from before Jax was born. He's a cop too, he has the marbles to know what would happen to a rat. Tara turning on the club, ratting the club out, is a rat. What are they going to do to Barofsky next week? How did Jax react when Juice spilled to Nero? Unser tells Queen Bee of the club Gemma that Tara's going to rat and hurt the club and what did Unser expect Gemma or anyone to do? Tara herself thought the club and Jax was going to kill her.

 

Unser ran to Gemma's side this episode because he knew what Jax would do to her when he got there. So he should also be responsible for knowing what would happen to a rat in Samcro's world and Unser still went and told Gemma anyway.

 

Unser also knew why Juice was in jail and that the club has all types of connections in jail, what was arresting Gemma going to do? It's not sensible, just delaying the inevitable. 

Edited December 4, 2014 by Artsda

[Ohwell]

Juice killed that nice cop that was supposed to be protecting Tara, all to protect Gemma the fucking psychopath.  The he helped cook of the lie about the Chinese that led to Jax torturing an innocent man to death.  He personally killed Henry Lin who he KNOWS had nothing to do with Tara's death.  And by starting the gang war with the Chinese he is responsible for the death's of Bobby and all the Diosa girls, countless Chinese gang members, Jury, and Jury's son.  So don't RIP Juice.  You deserved that.

He also killed that poor guy at the motel who was just checking to see if anyone was in the room, just because Juice thought he was one of the Chinese gang.

 

I've always hated Juice because he has those sad, puppy dog eyes or he can have a really beautiful, innocent-looking smile, so that you don't know what a monster he really is until it's too late.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

I think Happy was the one who killed Alvarez's son, with an icepick.

I think Happy was the one who killed Alvarez's son, with an icepick.

[Scootman]

Thoughts:

Sorry Unser is dead. He went out trying to do the right thing. Never held him accountable for Tara's death: Gemma used that info to let out her long pent-up anger at Tara. It's not Unser's fault.

 

Juice had a fitting end. Odd that before he died he had pie, and Jax killed his Mom and then went home to get some pie. Hope Wendy was knot injected with the next crazy biker boy.

 

I have a theory about the end I'll take to the spec thread.

[spaceytraci1208]

I think Happy was the one who killed Alvarez's son, with an icepick.

I think Happy was the one who killed Alvarez's son, with an icepick.

You're right! Alvarez just led him to the slaughter. Still...that's some cold shit lol