S06.E15: Miguel

[Empress1]

2 hours ago, PRgal said:

The girls already call him Grandpa Miguel.  I think we first heard it season 4 or so?

I think they just call him Grandpa. In the Thanksgiving episode where Miguel’s kids were complete assholes, he and Rebecca went to Randall’s afterward and Annie ran to him and hugged him, saying “Grandpa!” all excited. He’s the only Grandpa they’ve ever known on that side of the family. We were meant to see that while his kids are trifling, the Pearson grandkids love him.

[bonniejmac]

11 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I think they just call him Grandpa. In the Thanksgiving episode where Miguel’s kids were complete assholes, he and Rebecca went to Randall’s afterward and Annie ran to him and hugged him, saying “Grandpa!” all excited. He’s the only Grandpa they’ve ever known on that side of the family. We were meant to see that while his kids are trifling, the Pearson grandkids love him.

I just started rewatching the whole series from the beginning and they call him Grandpa in episode 2. One of the girls says “Grandma & Grandpa are here!” and then we got the reveal that it was Rebecca and Miguel, not Rebecca and Jack. 

[dcubed]

10 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Also thought it was interesting that he wanted to help his parents with his aunt because he could afford to hire someone, but when it came time for someone to do the same for him he resisted it just like his parents did.

There's something that happens when you get older, a resistance that sets in where you refuse to see things as they really are.  I see it again and again in my job today and lived it when I cared for my mother.  My best friends and I have vowed to help each other see the truth of where we are and what help we'll need when we get older.  We always say that we'll be truthful even if it hurts and remind each other that we don't want to be stubborn and blinded by pride and fear or whatever it is that keeps people from having an accurate picture of what help they need.  

[Boo Boo]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

It was great to have a Miguel-centric episode, but there were so many continuity and logic errors that I couldn't get past them.

When Miguel and Shelly originally told Jack and Rebecca that they were divorcing, they said it was amicable and that they just "fell out of love." Their children were also teenagers at that time - they're older than the Big Three - so that scene with young children lurking on the stairs while Miguel and Shelly fought (and Shelly compared Miguel unfavorably to Jack, no less) was a retcon, as was all the subsequent stuff about the kids hating Miguel. The writers just needed a source of conflict for him and weren't able to come up with anything more original.

The job interview scene made no sense whatsoever. The most ridiculous part was Miguel, who was a men's clothing salesman, interviewing for a construction project manager job. Whether his name was Mike Rivers, Miguel Rivas, or Freddie Mercury, he was not qualified for that job. And yet the manager offered it to him on the spot, without interviewing any of the other candidates who were sitting in the lobby. To say nothing of the job requiring Spanish language skills but the manager presumably discriminating against a candidate with a Spanish name. Again, a trite and lazy attempt by the writers to show how some immigrants struggle to succeed in the US.

Speaking of immigrants, the backstory with his father was also trite and cliched. Every immigrant family's story is different and much more nuanced than what the show bothered to portray.

Finally, this episode was really sloppy with everyone's looks. In the 2008 episode when Beth helped Rebecca set up an FB profile and Miguel messaged her, Rebecca had wavy, shoulder-length hair. In this episode, in the same timeline, she already had her old lady bob. And the Big Three, as has been pointed out, looked the same when they found out Rebecca and Miguel were dating - which would have made them 29 or 30 at the time - as when Miguel died, about 20 years later. It felt like whoever was in charge of the characters' styling in different timelines had completely checked out by the time this episode was filmed.

YES!!

I couldn't help but think during the flashbacks that they essentially created a long Juan Valdez commercial.  I also was like wait, what? How do you go from clothing salesperson to construction?  

 

 

[Crs97]

Here is my fan-wave:  yes, he sold suits but was taking night classes.  Now he has a business degree of some sort and also is an amazing salesman.  When his name is Miguel, his resume with a community/local college degree and clothing store reference aren’t impressive.  When he’s Mike, suddenly the HR can see himself in this plucky guy with some great salesmanship skills.

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, chocolatine said:

When Miguel and Shelly originally told Jack and Rebecca that they were divorcing, they said it was amicable and that they just "fell out of love." Their children were also teenagers at that time - they're older than the Big Three - so that scene with young children lurking on the stairs while Miguel and Shelly fought (and Shelly compared Miguel unfavorably to Jack, no less) was a retcon, as was all the subsequent stuff about the kids hating Miguel. The writers just needed a source of conflict for him and weren't able to come up with anything more original.

The job interview scene made no sense whatsoever. The most ridiculous part was Miguel, who was a men's clothing salesman, interviewing for a construction project manager job. Whether his name was Mike Rivers, Miguel Rivas, or Freddie Mercury, he was not qualified for that job. And yet the manager offered it to him on the spot, without interviewing any of the other candidates who were sitting in the lobby.

I don't remember details (and bigger stuff) like most people here, but it's certainly possible, if not probable, that Miguel and Shelly have been fighting for years before they divorced.

As for his job, do we know it's a manager's job he's hired for? Could it have been something in sales? [I don't remember what position(s) he held in early eps.] But, yes, that interview was very quick and not thorough. It might have been nice if we'd seen the interviewer and Miguel bonding over a joke or something.

[MaggieG]

Well, I was a bawling mess in the last 5 minutes. Miguel was the best. I loved them showing his mother taking care of her sister, no questions asked and then Miguel doing the same thing for Rebecca. I loved that he reconciled with his kids, with Kevin's help. 

How lucky was Rebecca to find two great men who loved her unconditionally and she loved back? Jack in the beginning of her life and Miguel at the end. The ashes spreading got me so much. 

[Aloeonatable]

3 hours ago, Chewy101 said:

How on EARTH will they handle Rebecca now that her stabilizing force is gone and her condition is terrible? I'm hoping Kevin takes over, since he was inserting himself into her routine when Miguel was struggling. 

In the latter stages of demetia, which it looks like Rebecca is there, she probably has forgotten Miguel as her caretaker. We might see some reaction, but most likely not especially if she is nonverbal. 

[sashabear21]

5 hours ago, bybrandy said:

In my experience it is hard to predict who is going to excel at caregiving and who isn't.  We've never seen Jack have a go at anything like caregiving so I don't see how we could even guess how he'd handle it.  One of my mom's friends had told my mom how lucky she was to have so many daughters because daughters turn up for you... and she worried because she had only sons.   Then she got to where she needed help and the kid who turned up for her, who turned up literally every single day and became the absolute rock she relied on... it was the kid who dropped out of school at 16, left home and was out of touch for a solid decade.  She said she and her husband spent years fretting about what would become of that boy.  By the time I knew him he had a steady job with the city and got off work and came directly to check on his mom every day.   

 

Oh absolutely, it would greatly depend on how their relationship had evolved over the years as they matured and we didn't get to see that due to Jack's death. It was always assumed that my aunt would take my grandmother in when she couldn't live on her own anymore but it never would have worked once the Alzheimer's diagnosis came in because my aunt is a people pleaser and was the favorite child and would have never been able to tell her no when she needed to, and would have been emotionally distraught at every cognitive decline. Meanwhile my mom was able to take her car keys away when it was time, roll with the punches at every cognitive decline (whenever my grandmother would forget who her great-grandchildren were, my mom wouldn't get upset and wouldn't upset the kids, she would just tell them that their great-grandmother was playing a game that day where she was pretending that all of them were the neighbor's children and not to let on that they knew the game). And when it was time for her to get round the clock care, my mom made that decision too because no one else would have been able to.  So even though she was the least favored child, she was able to step it up as caretaker in a way that no one else would have been able to because they were all stuck in the past in a lot of ways. 

[chocolatine]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

As for his job, do we know it's a manager's job he's hired for? Could it have been something in sales? [I don't remember what position(s) he held in early eps.] But, yes, that interview was very quick and not thorough. It might have been nice if we'd seen the interviewer and Miguel bonding over a joke or something.

It was a job where he was supposed to talk to construction workers. That wouldn't have been the case for a sales job.

[Tabbygirl521]

13 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

I've been trying to figure out how long Rebecca & Miguel were married before he died. They celebrated their 10th wedding anniversary (or were supposed to) when little Jack was 3. The Big Three were then what, 41 or 42? By my calculations Rebecca dies about 10 years later. Do we know now how many years before that did Miguel die? 

They reconnected when Tess was born, but we don't know how long they communicated before getting together in Pittsburgh. It seems they had quite the long courtship. 

It took awhile for me to realize that she apparently had more a lot years with Miguel than she did with Jack. 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Tabbygirl521

[Tabbygirl521]

3 hours ago, dcubed said:

There's something that happens when you get older, a resistance that sets in where you refuse to see things as they really are.  I see it again and again in my job today and lived it when I cared for my mother.  My best friends and I have vowed to help each other see the truth of where we are and what help we'll need when we get older.  We always say that we'll be truthful even if it hurts and remind each other that we don't want to be stubborn and blinded by pride and fear or whatever it is that keeps people from having an accurate picture of what help they need.  

I love this post. We all need people who will be honest and supportive, and we all need to trust those people. We have a friend right now whose wife was dx with early dementia and he is not ready to accept ANY help, nor even go to her doc for advice on coping. My husband is in a position to connect him with all kinds of supportive services but nope. Meanwhile he is wearing himself out and is unable or unwilling to be firm with his poor wife when she needs it - for example, she’s still driving (!) because he fears confronting her about it. (She has already called hIm once from a parking lot saying she’d forgotten how to to turn on the car.) 

[AriAu]

Well made and interesting episode....but with only 4 episodes left, I wish it had advanced the story lines of the truly main characters. It's like this should have been earlier this season, without the last 5 minutes, which could have been inserted at the end of another episode  (since it was chock full of spoilers that we learned as the season moved along) answering the question of whether Rebecca outlived him.  I just feel like there is a lot more to learn about the Big 3, but YMMV

[watch2much]

On 5/3/2022 at 10:01 PM, Spartan Girl said:

I would have rather had a full episode of Miguel and Rebecca’s wedding than Kate’s stupid second wedding.

Miguel, I’m so sorry I misjudged you for marrying your dead best friend’s wife in season one. You were the best character on this whole show.

At least Kevin got his stupid kids to reconcile with him before he died. 

well, it was the least he could do since he kept Rebecca and Miguel apart for 8 years.

[lovett1979]

13 minutes ago, watch2much said:

well, it was the least he could do since he kept Rebecca and Miguel apart for 8 years.

How did Kevin keep them apart?

[watch2much]

5 minutes ago, lovett1979 said:

How did Kevin keep them apart?

before Miguel moved to Houston, Kevin noticed there was a connection between Rebecca and him and basically told Miguel to forget about it due to his being Jack's friend and made him feel guilty.  the next time he saw Rebecca, when she was ready to tell him how she felt about him, he told her he was moving.

[Kirkydee]

A little pet peeve from me

A lot of people on thos thread are calling the Rivas family immigrants.  They are from Puetro Rico. They are American citizens.  People from the island have been US citizens since 1917.  

Also about the tension between Miguel and his dad.  Another line that rubbed his Dad the wrong way was " I don't want to look like I just came from San Juan" ( when referring to his hair).  I openly cringed when Miguel said that.  I can see how his Dad took offense to that and I really expected a more verbal showdown after that line.

Another fact.....and I'm sure the earlier poster who went to Forbes Field to see Clemente can attest.  Remember when the man who watching the Pirates on TV say about Clemente " Can't understand a damn thing he says".  That was very true and reported harshly in Pittsburgh media.  They would quote him phonetically.  " I heet (hit) thee ball".  Made him sound like a Speedy Gonzalez knock off.  I'm sure that treatment of Clemente was evident to the Rivases and young Miguel would do what he could to Americanize.  I watched a documentary on Clemente a few years ago and they pointed out articles in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette.  Probably flew in the 50s/60s but undeniable racist

[Ohiopirate02]

45 minutes ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

It took awhile for me to realize that she apparently had more a lot years with Miguel than she did with Jack. 

I did the math, and Rebecca and Jack were together for a couple more years than what she had with Miguel.  Jack met Rebecca the night of the Immaculate Reception in December 1972, and they began dating soon after.  They are together from 1973-1998 with them getting married sometime between when they met and 1980.  Rebecca does not reconnect with Miguel on Facebook until October 2008, and they got married in either December 2011 or early 2012.  The show chose to get a bit hazy on exactly when Rebecca and Miguel began their romantic relationship.  We do know they progressed from chatting online to phone calls to that dinner.  The show has also gotten hazy on what year or years the events of this episode encompass.  

Bottom line is Rebecca and Jack were together for 25 years, while Rebecca and Miguel is something around 18-22 years.  I do believe the show chose to get hazy with the dates of Rebecca and Miguel.  They were so specific with Rebecca and Jack with them meeting on the night of the Immaculate Reception to conceiving the Big 3 the night of Super Bowl VIX to Jack dying the night of Super Bowl XXIII.  

[Aloeonatable]

14 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I did the math, and Rebecca and Jack were together for a couple more years than what she had with Miguel.  Jack met Rebecca the night of the Immaculate Reception in December 1972, and they began dating soon after.  They are together from 1973-1998 with them getting married sometime between when they met and 1980.  Rebecca does not reconnect with Miguel on Facebook until October 2008, and they got married in either December 2011 or early 2012.  The show chose to get a bit hazy on exactly when Rebecca and Miguel began their romantic relationship.  We do know they progressed from chatting online to phone calls to that dinner.  The show has also gotten hazy on what year or years the events of this episode encompass.  

Bottom line is Rebecca and Jack were together for 25 years, while Rebecca and Miguel is something around 18-22 years.  I do believe the show chose to get hazy with the dates of Rebecca and Miguel.  They were so specific with Rebecca and Jack with them meeting on the night of the Immaculate Reception to conceiving the Big 3 the night of Super Bowl VIX to Jack dying the night of Super Bowl XXIII.  

Thank you. I was wondering about this. 

[Shermie]

12 hours ago, CarpeFelis said:

Since when does an adult offspring have the right to dictate who their now-single parent can date? Obviously he came around eventually, but this was just so obnoxious.

It happens in real life actually. I agree that the kids have no business interfering with their parent’s happiness, but some are so attached to the notion that their Mom has to mourn Dad (or vice versa) forever, that’s the dead parent will be erased.

4 hours ago, dcubed said:

There's something that happens when you get older, a resistance that sets in where you refuse to see things as they really are.  I see it again and again in my job today and lived it when I cared for my mother.  My best friends and I have vowed to help each other see the truth of where we are and what help we'll need when we get older.  We always say that we'll be truthful even if it hurts and remind each other that we don't want to be stubborn and blinded by pride and fear or whatever

We are currently in the middle of dealing with aging mothers and have written what I call our “manifesto of aging”, basically a 16-point (and counting) list of things we won’t do. It has been an ordeal dealing with these two very elderly women and I hate that their final years have been so unpleasant for all of us. My main advice to anyone entering their retirement years is to have a plan. “Living in my house till the day I die” is not a plan, it’s a sentence on your loved ones.

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

with only 4 episodes left, I wish it had advanced the story lines of the truly main characters.

Seriously? We know Kate’s full story now, and Kevin’s. We know that Rebecca outlives Miguel and that she dies in 2030. We just need a bit more of Randall’s ending. I’m actually wondering how they’re going to fill 4 more episodes.

[Aloeonatable]

1 hour ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

I love this post. We all need people who will be honest and supportive, and we all need to trust those people. We have a friend right now whose wife was dx with early dementia and he is not ready to accept ANY help, nor even go to her doc for advice on coping. My husband is in a position to connect him with all kinds of supportive services but nope. Meanwhile he is wearing himself out and is unable or unwilling to be firm with his poor wife when she needs it - for example, she’s still driving (!) because he fears confronting her about it. (She has already called hIm once from a parking lot saying she’d forgotten how to to turn on the car.) 

This describes my friend's husband exactly. 

I remember when my husband had to take my MIL's car away from her. He had to keep reminding her that her Dr. told her she should not be driving anymore. She was always in denial and would call him constantly to bring her car back. She would sit in  the doctor's office and listen to him tell her she shouldn't drive (had gotten lost numerous times, crashed into things, etc.) and immediately leave his office asking for her car. 

[peeayebee]

14 hours ago, sashabear21 said:

Honestly I don't know that Jack would have been a great caretaker to Rebecca in her ailing years as grand romantic gestures would have the potential to scare the hell out of her at a time when she needed routine with her illness instead.

He's a fictional character, but I have no doubt he would have done fine. 

It's amazing what we can do when we need to do it. Many years ago, when my husband was coming home on hospice, his mother was panicking after the nurse explained to us about giving him medication (although it was going to be my job). I did what I had to do, what had to be done. A couple of years later I was taking care of my dad. I would never have believed I could do the things that I did for him. (I drew the line at cutting his toenails.) 

[Violetgoblin6]

23 hours ago, PRgal said:

Why would Miguel's dad have issues with his success?  If my son became, say, the Jeff Bezos of his generation then darn right I'd be proud of him.  I don't see how this is "forgetting" where one comes from?  Or am I coming from a different position?  Is it resentment?  

As for not being sure of where one should be/one's place in society, I think that's an experience many "other culture" people, especially those who were born here or came here as young children face.  Society dictates that they be one way while they hear something completely different at home.  I'm dealing with this to this day, though not to the extreme as some.

And where is that beach towel?  I really needed it. :(

One more thing:  Would the Big 3 have known the Rivas kids, considering that Jack and Miguel were really good friends?  I would have thought they would have played together when they were young. 

I think Andy is around my age, Amber younger? In "The Game Plan" in season one or two, Shelly or Miguel comment they have a "6" year old at home. I was 6 in 1980. I generally didn't hang with kids 6 years younger. Different grades, different schools, different interests.

I finally say "Miguel" last night. Despite haven seen the shortened montage on Youtube that morning, I was overwhelmed and hysterical. Like The Time Travelers Wife novel hysterical, Directors Cut of The Butterfly Effect hysterical, Memphis hysterical, What Dreams May Come hysterical. 

There is always something subtle that cuts me in the heart and brings the tears. In Memphis it was Randall holding William's face in hands and William's "I'm scared" and "My beautiful boy".  This time, it was the Rebecca and Miguel scenes of 2009 and then how they only had like ten years before her diagnosis. How life works out strangely but gloriously at times. Finding another heart that fits your's so late in life after your first heart passes on. Miguel's expressions of love with the kids. Such a great, expressive actor. I KNEW the apple tree seeds would turn into a momentous tree that we'd visit again near deathbed scene. 

Notes:

* Wonder if he died in 2028, the apple tree looked bigger and Jack died in 1998 (who, of course has a tree, love how trees factor in the show), plus the Big 3 needs to age, the pic that somebody posted on here from Us Magazine really shows the aging. Makes some sense. Wedding in 2026, they talk with Miguel is Thanksgiving 2026 and then another year of care and Christmas with Andy, and then he passes the following autumn (apples on tree). The twins are the same age as the wedding (looking around the same age, that is) I swear Mig and Rebecca look older (cane and whatnot) and people's hair has changed. 

* LOL, still annoyed as someone who lives near Bethlehem and has spent time and sleep-away camp in the Poconos that the cabin is so so very prominent in their lives. I mean, Marc and Kate drive there impulsively, thanksgivings there, lots of summer trips...Pococos and Pittsburgh, not close. I've only been to Pburgh airport in passing to PSU to see my husband from my own college in Ohio. Plus, were they not selling it in the Randall drinks the mushroom smoothie episode? Wasn't the cabin Jack's boss (perhaps Mr. Lundy's?) 

* Rebecca sternly tells them to "do the big things and take the big risks" earlier this season. Apparently they did. Kate and Kevin's remarriages (plus Kates divorce), Randall's senate seat, Kate's new job.

* How many wigs do they have for Rebecca? Someone on here noticed, as did I, that her hair at Tess's birth was longer and wavier. Maybe she got it done the next day? Lol. 

 

 

Edited May 5, 2022 by Violetgoblin6

[PRgal]

13 minutes ago, MaggieG said:

Well, I was a bawling mess in the last 5 minutes. Miguel was the best. I loved them showing his mother taking care of her sister, no questions asked and then Miguel doing the same thing for Rebecca. I loved that he reconciled with his kids, with Kevin's help. 

How lucky was Rebecca to find two great men who loved her unconditionally and she loved back? Jack in the beginning of her life and Miguel at the end. The ashes spreading got me so much. 

Rebecca's very lucky indeed!  Also, song is also based on an old ballad called Barbara Allen, according to Wikipedia's write-up on And So It Goes - I had thought the song was familiar (but in an different way than the song itself) and Wikipedia confirmed it.  The girl who had her voice lesson before me had it as part of her repertoire back in the early 90s and I thought the melody was very pretty (and sad). 

 

[Blakeston]

When Miguel's first wife compared him unfavorably to Jack, Miguel's reaction suggested that she regularly did this.

It's funny - despite Miguel eventually marrying Rebecca, Shelley may have been the one who was hung up on a Pearson during their marriage.

I found it very believable that Kevin reacted as badly as he did to Rebecca and Miguel being together. This wasn't too long after the episode set in 2008, when he tried to steal a role from his friend who was trying to help his career. Kevin was a jerk with the mentality of a selfish teenager until he was in his late 30s - and that was 10 years off.

[tessabq]

Paul Calderone's performance was perfection personified.

[TheBride]

Great episode. But Mandy Moore drives me crazy portraying an Alzheimer's patient as some kind of flower-power, space cadet. Confusion, frustration, anger, etc. are more like it. She keeps looking at the sky and trees like she's on LSD.

[CdrJanny]

3 hours ago, Kirkydee said:

A little pet peeve from me

A lot of people on thos thread are calling the Rivas family immigrants.  They are from Puetro Rico. They are American citizens.  People from the island have been US citizens since 1917.  

Also about the tension between Miguel and his dad.  Another line that rubbed his Dad the wrong way was " I don't want to look like I just came from San Juan" ( when referring to his hair).  I openly cringed when Miguel said that.  I can see how his Dad took offense to that and I really expected a more verbal showdown after that line.

Another fact.....and I'm sure the earlier poster who went to Forbes Field to see Clemente can attest.  Remember when the man who watching the Pirates on TV say about Clemente " Can't understand a damn thing he says".  That was very true and reported harshly in Pittsburgh media.  They would quote him phonetically.  " I heet (hit) thee ball".  Made him sound like a Speedy Gonzalez knock off.  I'm sure that treatment of Clemente was evident to the Rivases and young Miguel would do what he could to Americanize.  I watched a documentary on Clemente a few years ago and they pointed out articles in the Pittsburgh Post Gazette.  Probably flew in the 50s/60s but undeniable racist

Sad to say, back in those days most Anglos called Hispanics "wetbacks" (their backs were wet from swimming across the Rio Grande, get it?) even if they were Puerto Ricans and not Mexicans. Alternatively, they were called "spics", and not affectionately.  Only Cubans were accorded any sort of respect, but it think that's because the Kennedys and the Catholic Church pushed the notion that the were all "freedom fighters" escaping from godless Communism.

Not saying it was right, only saying what was.

Also, if you want an insight into how horribly Puerto Ricans were treated here, in their own country, watch the (original) movie "West Side Story".  The song "America" says it all.

Edited May 5, 2022 by CdrJanny
To add another thought.

[Violetgoblin6]

3 hours ago, Shermie said:

It happens in real life actually. I agree that the kids have no business interfering with their parent’s happiness, but some are so attached to the notion that their Mom has to mourn Dad (or vice versa) forever, that’s the dead parent will be erased.

Yup. As I wrote earlier, my uncle passed in 2012, suddenly. His widow, my aunt, met a man at game night and by May of 2013 they were very much an item. He had a ring and a trip to Mexico planned before she too passed in November 2013. 

Her daughter never spoke about him or met him, infuriated that her mom moved on so fast. In fact at the house the night my aunt passed (also very, very suddenly) she was icy cold to him. 

My aunt's son, however, loved him and did stuff with him on weekends. 

[Lone Wolf]

16 hours ago, sashabear21 said:

 Honestly I don't know that Jack would have been a great caretaker to Rebecca in her ailing years as grand romantic gestures would have the potential to scare the hell out of her at a time when she needed routine with her illness instead. 

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

He's a fictional character, but I have no doubt he would have done fine. 

St. Jack? You kiddin' me? He'd have probably laid hands on her and cured her.

Seriously, though..it was a sweet, sad episode and I enjoyed it.  Emotion elicited, Show,  mission accomplished.  It was nice to get Miquel's backstory after all this time during which the other characters' were unfolding as we watched, and I think that the fact that it came so late in the series made it that much more meaningful.

That said, I wouldn't be someone who watches television without pity (kudos to anyone who gets that reference) if I didn't note that Kevin didn't simply deliver the message to Andy that Miguel had limited time left - he gave it a Pearson Preamble©™ before he got to the point. 

 

[CarpeFelis]

54 minutes ago, Lone Wolf said:

That said, I wouldn't be someone who watches television without pity (kudos to anyone who gets that reference) 

Spare the snark, spoil the networks! I miss TWoP.

[Dowel Jones]

Geez, three episodes of petty squabbling to tell us that Kate and Toby weren't meant for each other, and Miguel's whole life is pushed into one, such that I had to keep rewatching bits and pieces to understand what was happening.  Still a good episode and fare thee well, Miguel.

Good job, Kevin.  With your history of serial sexual relationships, you're really qualified to berate Miguel for dating your Mom.

[AriAu]

Quote

Spare the snark, spoil the networks! I miss TWoP.

I'm smirking just thinking about the amazing snark that would have come from the recaps of this show. Wind up Wing Chun or SARS or  Deborah or Miss Ali or LTG and watch them go on many, many aspects of this show.

[Trillian]

1 hour ago, AriAu said:

I'm smirking just thinking about the amazing snark that would have come from the recaps of this show. Wind up Wing Chun or SARS or  Deborah or Miss Ali or LTG and watch them go on many, many aspects of this show.

You mean the “chain-smoking basement-dwellers and mentally unstable, muumuu-wearing losers”?  

[ams1001]

44 minutes ago, AriAu said:

I'm smirking just thinking about the amazing snark that would have come from the recaps of this show. Wind up Wing Chun or SARS or  Deborah or Miss Ali or LTG and watch them go on many, many aspects of this show.

I discovered TWoP not long before it shut down. I was so sad. I loved the recaps.

[ChattyCathyLA]

On 5/4/2022 at 6:28 AM, ams1001 said:

When someone asked where the kids were, they said Philip had taken them on a nature walk or something like that. (He is in the group shot someone posted above, though I missed that when I was watching.)

I must have blinked and missed it.  That’s too bad.  I can’t stand his character and hoped we would find out they were divorced … 😂 Their marriage doesn’t make sense to me like Kate’s and Toby’s did.  IMO, the Katoby divorce ruined their love story and destroyed Kate’s character. Will never understand what the writers were thinking and wondering if the actress pissed them off. 

[maggiemae]

8 hours ago, Aloeonatable said:

This describes my friend's husband exactly. 

I remember when my husband had to take my MIL's car away from her. He had to keep reminding her that her Dr. told her she should not be driving anymore. She was always in denial and would call him constantly to bring her car back. She would sit in  the doctor's office and listen to him tell her she shouldn't drive (had gotten lost numerous times, crashed into things, etc.) and immediately leave his office asking for her car. 

When my father lost his car while at the dentist the chef from the retirement home came to get him after the receptionist saw his walking around an hour after his appointment. I helped him find his car the next morning.

While I was walking him up to his apartment I held out my hand and said "you're grounded" and he dropped his keys in my hand.

I was so fortunate because I was with my dad when he was diagnosed with dementia and saw the fear, and yet he knew I would be his rock. 

Fortunately he died of something else at 86 and was never sent to "the floor" with the dementia patients.

Nor was it 24/7/365 for me...just daily calls, visits 3 times a week and shopping and light cooking since he only had dinner downstairs. And lots of trips to the doctors for heart, cancer, dementia...

I had to work part time rather than full time to fit it in...and have never regretted it.

 

[ECM1231]

On 5/4/2022 at 11:23 AM, CountryGirl said:

I was so afraid this episode would end with Miguel's death and then, it did 😢, but I'm not going to focus on that for a moment. I'm just going to soak in one of the best episodes of the entire series. 

Miguel getting his due and being allowed to step out of the long shadow cast by Jack has been a very long time coming. 

I loved that they showed how Rebecca didn't "get" Miguel early on (kind of like S1 me when they had the reveal that Rebecca and Miguel were married) and how they slowly thawed the ice between them. Her question: "What is your story?" Him answering (just like his father had once), "I don't know, but it's a good question. Ask me later."

Seeing him as a young boy in Puerto Rico, playing baseball with his buddies, and showing off the cutest of curly locks. The move to the states and showing the disparity between worlds as they show him watching his favorite baseball player on Miguel's father's boss' TV (and yes, I was initially worried where they would go with that plotline) to Miguel and family listening to a game on the radio. The boss telling Miguel that "where you sit is all that matters," which I think Miguel took to heart, not just with respect to watching a baseball game but life, itself, and helped guide his ambition to be a success.

Him applying as Mike Rivers vs Miguel Rivas - brilliant move, but one that would take him further from his roots and it's apparent his drive causes him to miss time with his family of origin, creating friction with his father (that and his changing his hair to better fit in).  It seems their relationship never regains the footing it had in his younger years and Miguel feels the regret when his father dies, even as his mother tries to reassure him that his father died proud of him. In a preview of his later relationship with an ailing Rebecca, he notes how hard his mother works to care for the sister the family brought with them to America, who sadly suffered a stroke in her early 20s. Miguel is clearly feeling lost here as this is after the demise of his marriage to Shelly and while I do think he is partially responsible with putting work first too much of the time, I also think she had a rose-colored view of the Jack/Rebecca marriage. She, apparently, never got the memo that Jack came home late often (missing the kids' bedtime), not to mention the drinking. And I do think she influenced the kids' views on him (again, not giving him a pass on his prioritizing work above family) but I do wonder if she tainted that well a little bit. Just the nastiness of her reply to Miguel, quite rightly saying, "I'm not Jack" and her" You are certainly not." We also saw him reaching out several times, but those calls go unanswered. And did Miguel buy his dad's former boss' house? It sure looked similar to me.

His mother also, wisely, tells him he will find love again and it's not long after that he reconnects with Rebecca via Facebook, eight years after the Thanksgiving where Rebecca realized, too late, her feelings for him had most definitely changed.

I loved the scenes of them reconnecting (via FB) and picking up where they left off. The bit of awkwardness when they finally have dinner, but then, with him confessing to feeling homesick when he left her and her moving to kiss him (which, get it, Rebecca!), we see their friendship-turned-romance really catch fire.

And speaking of, at long last, we get to see them in bed together. Which...about damn time. They address the elephant in the room aka Jack and Rebecca states he would want what's best for them and that is that. 

FF to Thanksgiving that year and of course, the Big 3 would walk in on them kissing before they have a chance to tell them about their relationship.

Kevin...you suck and need to grow the fuck up.

Kate and Randall were shocked but at least not assholes about it.

Those later scenes of Miguel caring for Rebecca ring so true as it is so often the caretaker who lets their own health suffer in the wake of caring for a loved one. I saw it with my MIL and I will always wonder if her own health, especially mental, would have been better if she had allowed nurses to come in and help more. The lack of sleep alone clearly takes a toll and we see that with Miguel. 

Rebecca's panic when Miguel left her side to try and get a nap and him having to be "on" all of the time for her. MIguel's drive for success is a continuing theme when he tries to disagree with the Big 3 about getting full-time nursing care and we see them tell him that he has more than honored his vows to their mother and are just coming from a place of wanting to help her and him. It was a very sweet moment. The body language, that little hand touch from Randall.

Kevin's visit to Miguel's son. Kevin...I love you and thank goodness you grew the fuck up.

When they showed his son there at Christmas, that's when I gave in to the tears that were threatening since the montage of Miguel caring for Rebecca scenes started. 

And then what I was dreading happening, happened, as Billy Joel queued up and damn.

Knowing that Miguel didn't get to care for Rebecca until the end of her days just gutted me.

As did seeing Rebecca in her wheelchair, having outlived two husbands and I think she is far more lost without her rock, Miguel.

The tree that was planted for Miguel and some of his ashes spread there.

The family gathered (and I wish we had seen more of Miguel's daughter, Amber, as they seemed to have a closer relationship).

Kevin and Andy traveling to Puerto Rico to spread the rest of the ashes on the field where Miguel once played baseball. 

I'm one that despite his flaws (and annoyance at the St Jack perpetuation by show) still likes and appreciates Jack and thought him a good partner for her youth, but Miguel was the perfect husband for her middle and later years. And as sad as it is for her to lose them both, how lucky she was to have been loved by both and they, in return, to be loved by her.

But yes, one of the truly great episodes of the series.

And me, thinking about it right now.

Brava, @CountryGirl. Beautifully expressed.

[maggiemae]

It just occurred to me, unless I missed something, but we never saw Rebecca's parents as grandparents to the BIG 3.

I wonder why....but suspect Jack.

 

 

 

[ams1001]

2 minutes ago, maggiemae said:

It just occurred to me, unless I missed something, but we never saw Rebecca's parents as grandparents to the BIG 3.

I wonder why....but suspect Jack.

We saw her mother with them once; she didn't treat Randall very well.

[maggiemae]

If Rebecca's mom did not treat Randall very well then that should have been an episode of Rebecca and Jack defending him and educating her and questioning her husband.

I think St Jack isolated his family and they all suffered in different ways...let alone his parents, Rebecca's parents, Nicky...

I can certainly understand cutting his father off...but everyone else?

And, iirc, Jack's dad did give him some money after years of estrangement. But not enough for Jack and he could not even tell his parents Nicky was alive.

The 2 Pearson's that cared about Nicky were Kevin and Rebecca. But they were the ones with forgiveness.

[bros402]

On 5/4/2022 at 12:13 PM, Tabbygirl521 said:

I hate that, and I’ve had the renaming happen in my own family. My understanding is that my MGF was renamed at Ellis Island, with his lengthy Greek first and last names shortened considerably (this was many, many years ago). Come to think of it, my own middle name is a more American version of my Greek grandmother’s. Ha! Maybe I’ll change it back. 

Renaming actually didn't occur at Ellis Island - immigrants sometimes did change their names shortly after arrival,though. With Ellis Island, they went by whatever the immigrant gave when they bought their ticket at the port of departure (aka what was on the passenger list)

[CdrJanny]

2 hours ago, maggiemae said:

It just occurred to me, unless I missed something, but we never saw Rebecca's parents as grandparents to the BIG 3.

I wonder why....but suspect Jack.

 

 

 

Rebecca's mother came uninvited during a snowstorm and spent the time making poorly veiled racists remarks about Randall.  Her behavior was so bad that Jack got out of his sickbed (he had the flu) to shovel the driveway so she could leave.  Never saw her dad with the kids at any age.  However, the family WAS driving to Thanksgiving at Rebecca's parents when the car broke down and Jack began the Pearson Thanksgiving practices.

[debraran]

I can't believe I have to watch the end again because tears kept me from seeing some things. I noticed Sophie in Kitchen and porch later but still missed Rebecca wasn't scattering ashes with them under tree.  I felt without her rock, she probably declined even faster than the disease timeline.

In interview Jon said about that question of why:

First big Kudos to writer Jonny Gomez and director Zetna Fuentes, Great job!

"We’re supposed to wonder where Rebecca is, for sure. If you noticed in the episode, she was already at the point where she couldn’t be left alone for a second without Miguel. She’s at that place where she absolutely has to have Miguel near her, around her at every turn and every second. And so I think we should wonder, where is Rebecca? How soon was the decline after he was gone? We know from reading and seeing when people lose their loved ones at a certain age, they can go rapidly and follow them. Sometimes people die together or hours apart. It’s also very poignant when they spread his ashes on the apple tree and the baseball diamond — to see the two boys who felt like there was the greatest rift between them and Miguel: Kevin and Miguel’s first born son. For those two to come together to [spread his ashes at the baseball diamond] was poignant and meaningful. It needed to be just those two in that moment to show how much love those two boys could actually find for this man."

[Pallas]

8 hours ago, maggiemae said:

It just occurred to me, unless I missed something, but we never saw Rebecca's parents as grandparents to the BIG 3.

Replying in the Relationships thread. 

[Johnny Dollar]

The show could’ve filled out an entire season of longer story arcs made up of multiple episodes centering on secondary characters like Miquel and Nicky right after the war, but instead we got Kate’s very special six-part second wedding extravaganza. The events of Miguel meeting his wife, getting married, having kids, getting divorced and having his kids hate him for some reason were portrayed in quite literally less than one minute. 

[Crs97]

I find it ironic that Shelly was complaining Miguel didn’t come home early like Jack when we know Miguel was the one who told Jack off in the bar for not going home.  I wonder if Shelly ever realized that Miguel was no Jack, but apparently she was no Rebecca.

[Blakeston]

Quote

It’s also very poignant when they spread his ashes on the apple tree and the baseball diamond — to see the two boys who felt like there was the greatest rift between them and Miguel: Kevin and Miguel’s first born son.

So Miguel has multiple sons? Did we know this?

[debraran]

38 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

So Miguel has multiple sons? Did we know this?

No just Andy snd Amber. Shouldnt have worded it that way   I think he meant he had him first 

Edited May 6, 2022 by debraran

[SilverLake0315]

On 5/4/2022 at 9:40 AM, Rootbeer said:

I do hope we see Miguel again, if only in Rebecca's fading memories. 

I'm almost positive Jon Huertas only recently finished filming, shortly before Milo and Mandy wrapped up the very last day, so I would assume we'll get to see more of Miguel 🙂