S42.E09: Game of Chicken

[Chicago Redshirt]

More miscellaneous thoughts:

I am fascinated by Maryanne now. At first, she just seemed this off-kilter, bubbly to the point of getting annoying extrovert. But this TC showed me she has a lot of depth to her. 

I kind of wish they had named the episode "The Misogynists Club," not only because it originated from a contestant (Jeff was the first one to bring up "A Game of Chicken) but also because it's more interesting. 

Going into the episode I thought that the balancing on small stuff kinds of challenges would leave Jonathan pretty vulnerable, but nope, he managed to rock it out. 

Peachy must have had another field day between Jonathan's performance and The Very Special Tribal About Race. The one thing that might have rained on the parade a little is that it may not be the case that the Misogynist Club Alliance will have traction.

I found it interesting that we didn't see much of Tori's reaction to the race talk at all. I wonder if that was an editing thing, or if she just didn't have any reaction to it, or what. She did have a pretty epic eye roll in there. 

I find it interesting that I could see any of the remaining 8 winning it all. Well, maybe not Mike. Most seasons I've watched, there were seemingly some obvious no-chancers once there were 8 survivors left.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[pennben]

1 minute ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Peachy must have had another field day between Jonathan's performance and The Very Special Tribal About Race.

One of the things I appreciated tonight was he kept his damn mouth shut when Maryanne & Drea were talking.  Or, allowed editors the good sense to keep his talk show nonsense to a minimum. 

[Lantern7]

"That escalated quickly." "Yeah, that really jumped up a notch."

I think that Tribal Council will lead to a finale in front of a studio audience. I make immature jokes about Probst and what turns him on, but you have to admit that he's probably a huge fan of doing A Very Special Episode. This time, there's no horrible party attached to it like Varner or Feely Dan. He will be compelled to show that Survivor is relevant, and that people on the streets are talking to him about what we saw tonight. Never mind that Jeffy has probably forgotten what streets look like. Survivor is important!

I can't blame Maryanne and Drea on how they felt. I feel that you cannot NOT see race in that situation. But I don't think Chanelle and Rocksroy getting voted off signals a troubling trend. CBS has mandated diversity for their reality shows' casts. Rocksroy was probably going to get voted out in most scenarios. We just saw the one where he was with four other guys, and the other guys convinced each other that they should stay in the game.

Jonathan? Oy. I figure that Tribal Council last hours, and he was probably sleep-deprived, but he should have kept mum. Also, I'm thinking that an unflattering scene like that might indicate that he's not going to win. Like I said in the live thread, I'd thought he'd go out early in the Immunity Challenge. He's a big guy and he had to keep steady on his platform, and he pulled it off.

One benefit to that second Tribal is that Tori is out. If her Shot In The Dark had made her safe, I would have suspected tampering. Okay, not really, but she had been lucky the past few episodes.

Rocksroy is also out, so I'll probably have to cool it on the "Rocksroy sounds like a Pokemon name" jokes.

[choclatechip45]

I think part of it is both Drea and Maryanne were told each other the target so they both knew that the third person on the jury would be black. Conversations like the one at tribal shouldn't be comfortable. 

I really couldn't stand Jonathan. I didn't like the way he talked to Lindsay and his attitude at tribal pissed me off. 

 

Edited April 28, 2022 by choclatechip45

[AntFTW]

1 hour ago, Lady Calypso said:

That's the interesting thing about it. Jonathan wanted Drea's idol to be flushed. I think his goal was to get her out, but

Well, I hope Jonathan knows how to take half-wins. Mission accomplished!

[Chicago Redshirt]

24 minutes ago, MerBearHou said:

The fact that Tribal #2 got to see who had just been voted off was a major game-changer and IMO not a fair one.  The optics of Chanelle and likely a seething RocksRoy sitting next to each other changed everything instantly before the 2nd vote-off.  

I'd guess it changed the dynamics but likely not the ultimate outcome of that vote. If they had no idea about Rocksroy,, we can only guess.

My guess is:

Tori still is going to be the target. Not only had she won two immunity challenges, not only does she not have strong allies in the mini-tribal or among the overall group, but also the vote was three Taku members and two Ika. It makes sense to try to stay Taku strong -- now they are four of the F8. 

One question is whether Maryanne or Drea would have felt comfortable enough to save their idols, or if they perhaps would have just used one of their extra votes. 

The biggest difference is likely the effect on the jury and on strategy going forward. Drea and Maryanne bonded over this, and I think that if just one of them gets to the end, they are likely a lock for the votes of Rock, Chanelle and whichever of them gets to the jury. It probably made Lindsey and Jonathan pretty darn nervous as to their chances of winning this thing. Or at least I would be if I were them. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[TVFan1]

I don't like it when these real issues spill over into the game either, but kudos for Drea and Maryanne for speaking up. I understand why Tori had to go, and at least she played her shot in the dark, so she tried all she could. I was hoping Lindsay would have gone, though. 

[DEL901]

What I always try to remember is that tribals can last for hours.  We saw a few minutes of edited discussion.   Maybe Jonathan made some self aware, redeeming comments.  Maybe he put his foot further in his mouth who knows. His last comment was tone deaf, but it seemed like he had no intention in commenting until Jeff called him out and he wasn’t smart or aware enough to deflect.   

He was lucky surfing taught him balance or he would probably have been voted out this week, but between his tone deaf comments at tribal and pissing off Lyndsey, he has moved from potential winner to serious goat. 

I wonder just how much his immunity win will go to Hai’s head?   It really wasn’t an impressive performance. 

[Artsda]

Really disliked that tribal becoming race not game. Rock wasn't voted out over race but it became all about that.

[pennben]

21 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

I can't blame Maryanne and Drea on how they felt. I feel that you cannot NOT see race in that situation. But I don't think Chanelle and Rocksroy getting voted off signals a troubling trend. CBS has mandated diversity for their reality shows' casts

Interesting point. I just think that’s something they felt they needed to deal with tonight because it’s been exhausting for many years without diversity. And, totally unrelated to you, but I can see how they don’t trust everything within the Survivor system that it basically took a mandate to get fairer representation on the island. 

[Mediocre Gatsby]

2 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

I'm now off the Jonathan train. Him being part of Misogyny Club should have clued me in, but I guess I was hoping that he was still a decent guy. Apparently not. Him speaking down to Lindsay earlier in the episode really gave me bad vibes, and it only continued to Tribal.

Preach. I couldn't believe what I heard him saying to Lindsay. She wasn't angry, she wasn't speaking quickly; she shouldn't have apologized. He was a total jerk. 

eta: The expressions on Drea and Maryanne's faces when they first walked into the TC and saw Rocksroy will stay with me for a while. Their expressions hit me like a gut punch; I can't imagine how they were feeling. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by Mediocre Gatsby

[Jules1]

I look forward to a season where people work together because they like each other as PEOPLE, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference or religion. 

[Chicago Redshirt]

3 minutes ago, Jules1 said:

I look forward to a season where people work together because they like each other as PEOPLE, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference or religion. 

Has there ever been such a season?

I'm guessing not.

[After7Only]

3 hours ago, ChiefWiggum9-1-2 said:

6 of 41 Survivor champs have been African-American.  Or 14.6%. 
 
African-Americans make up 12-13% of the population of the United States. 
 

Just sayin’

I think some better stats would be average boot order of Black players.   That’s closer in alignment to the argument made in the episode.   And disproportionately Black players were booted in first 3 boots.   It was more noticeable in early seasons with only 1-2 Black players.  

I do wonder about the response if there had been 2 women voted to jury in a row with a third woman being targeted and a 4th being mentioned as backup, and Lyndsey decided she couldn’t vote for Drea because she realized a pattern of women being booted.   Somehow I think the Comments would be different.   But it would be pretty much the same scenario as to what happened here.

Edited April 28, 2022 by After7Only

[princelina]

8 minutes ago, Jules1 said:

I look forward to a season where people work together because they like each other as PEOPLE, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference or religion. 

 

4 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Has there ever been such a season?

I'm guessing not.

I would say that people work with each other mostly because they agreed to on day 1 and it's working for them because they find they like them, plus they find people they like and click with.  In addition to that they are looking for ways to "bond" and the superficial qualities are obvious.  IMO that's why male/female/black alliances tend to fall apart quickly - because they don't actually trust the people they've pledged themselves to, and they end up back with the people they liked.  Hai and Romeo were recently hugging it out over their gayness, but they don't like each other as people so it went no further.

[tinkerbell]

Up until this episode, I liked Jonathan.  That is over. He interrupts women, talks over them, then says THEY are not listening to him. He speaks to men with the attitude that they are all collaborating. He speaks to women as though he is their boss, and they need to go according to his plan. He dismissed Drea's opinion before she was done explaining it, and shut her up by saying she was aggressive. 

Yes, he's strong and fit and rocks all the challenges.  But tonight he was rude and condescending and unable to consider someone else's position. 

[pennben]

My favorite thing about him is he told us how he knew it was important to not try to steamroll when he was in position of power & then, basically tied to do just that!  😀

[Cotypubby]

Mike is Black!??

When the show is mandated to have at least 50% POC it’s pretty damn obvious that the jury will contain a lot of POC. I’m so sick of things being made about race that aren’t. No one would have batted an eye had Hispanic Romeo been on the jury, but with Rocksroy, oh no it must be a pattern! Until they both played their idols I did think it was a bit of gameplay “no way you’ll vote me out now!” trickery, so I am glad at least they played the idols.

Edited April 28, 2022 by Cotypubby

[pennben]

5 minutes ago, Cotypubby said:

When the show is mandated to have at least 50% POC it’s pretty damn obvious that the jury will contain a lot of POC

Still catching up. Since when has 50% been mandated?  I still understand why a lot of POC still don’t trust the system of reality show casting. Hopefully with more consistent racially balanced casting, trust can be had. 

[30 Helens]

So for weeks we’ve been getting the Hero Jonathan edit. Tonight, we got the Dimwit Jonathan edit. It was probably well past due.

3 hours ago, Carey said:

The race thing being brought in here was tough to watch. I didn't think it needed to be brought up, I agree. I DO get it, but just not here.  

Why not here? Survivor is all about social dynamics. The only reason race has not been discussed in past seasons is because there have been one or two Black contestants, max, and to bring up racial issues would mean a quick demise. With a possible support system brings the opportunity to discuss things that have always been present, just never brought forth. And I think that’s a great thing. 

I really felt for Drea when she said she had to watch what she said and how she said it. The Angry Black Woman is a stereotype that prevents so many women like her from speaking their truth lest they be instantly dismissed. And it’s a stereotype that has been, unfortunately, perpetuated by this very show. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must feel to have to parse your words so carefully.

Episodes like this are a great way to experience other perspectives and maybe look at interpersonal dynamics in a different way. It’s a chance to learn and grow. I don’t understand why anyone would think that’s a bad thing. If I wanted to keep my head in the sand and not learn a thing, I’d just watch an episode of Is It Cake.

1 hour ago, LadyChatts said:

Considering this all happened before this cast saw S41 or BB23 and the cookout alliance, I wonder if their perceptions would have been different in seeing strides made with those reality shows.  Hard to say.  I will be curious how next season gets edited.  TPTB are treading waters they've never touched before with these past two seasons.

I do think the relative novelty of this has to be considered. Anyone who doesn’t understand why People of Color would find strength and solidarity in this type of situation have clearly never been in a situation where they were the perpetual minority. Maybe as seasons pass and racial equality becomes the new norm, race will become a non factor. That would be great. It would also be great if it happened in society at large. But until white people understand and accept the reasons Drea and Maryanne responded as they did tonight, nothing will change.

59 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I am fascinated by Maryanne now. At first, she just seemed this off-kilter, bubbly to the point of getting annoying extrovert. But this TC showed me she has a lot of depth to her. 

Same.

[Mediocre Gatsby]

23 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

I really felt for Drea when she said she had to watch what she said and how she said it. The Angry Black Woman is a stereotype that prevents so many women like her from speaking their truth lest they be instantly dismissed. And it’s a stereotype that has been, unfortunately, perpetuated by this very show. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must feel to have to parse your words so carefully.

And then that dismissal was *instantly* demonstrated by Jonathan. 

[ByaNose]

Dreya said she’d didn’t think Shenelle & Rocksroy would be voted out at this stage of the game. Didn’t Dreya vote Shenelle out last week or did she vote for Romeo?

[Carey]

1 minute ago, ByaNose said:

Dreya said she’d didn’t think Shenelle & Rocksroy would be voted out at this stage of the game. Didn’t Dreya vote Shenelle out last week or did she vote for Romeo?

Drea voted for Chanelle.  And so did Rocksroy.

[Primetimer]

Just posted:
 Survivor 42 Confronts Its Own Optics at an Emotional Tribal
https://www.primetimer.com/features/survivor-42-confronts-its-own-optics-at-an-emotional-tribal

[vb68]

3 hours ago, tinkerbell said:

Up until this episode, I liked Jonathan.  That is over. He interrupts women, talks over them, then says THEY are not listening to him. He speaks to men with the attitude that they are all collaborating. He speaks to women as though he is their boss, and they need to go according to his plan. He dismissed Drea's opinion before she was done explaining it, and shut her up by saying she was aggressive. 

For somebody who has talked a lot about being judged as a dumb muscle dude, he sure has a ton of privilege that comes out when he is challenged, especially by women. It's been edited down up til now. But it was always in the background, like him not being able to stand how much Lindsay and MaryAnne talk.  Up until this episode, I thought he was probably justified in seeing MaryAnne as annoying.  Now I think I'm on her side of that. 

Edited April 28, 2022 by vb68

[grandmabegum]

1 hour ago, Cotypubby said:

Mike is Black!??

He's Puerto Rican. Not sure how far back that heritage goes though.

Edited April 28, 2022 by grandmabegum

[eskimo]

Am I the only one who had no idea Mike is Black?  I legitimately did not know that, but more than one person has mentioned it.  

Boy did the first team to tribal mess things up!  Drea did not bother me, but I wanted to see her go tonight. Well not her actually, but all those advantages. No one player should have so many.  I thought I'd be happier to see Tori go, but not like this.  

I wonder if all the pre-jury boots had been sitting there as well, and the actual vote-offs-by-race could be visualized, would Drea have gone?  It did look terrible with Chanelle and Rocks sitting over there, knowing Drea had a high chance of sitting with them.  But it really didn't represent anything race related, just that #'s 6 and 7 were both Black and happened to be the first jury members.  

 

[Carey]

1 minute ago, eskimo said:

Am I the only one who had no idea Mike is Black?  I legitimately did not know that, but more than one person has mentioned it. 

I think he's a minority.  As mentioned, Puerto Rican.  Neither black nor white.  Speaking of which, I've spent the entire season thinking of who the heck he looks like, but everytime I draw a blank

[eskimo]

1 hour ago, After7Only said:

  

I do wonder about the response if there had been 2 women voted to jury in a row with a third woman being targeted and a 4th being mentioned as backup, and Lyndsey decided she couldn’t vote for Drea because she realized a pattern of women being booted.   Somehow I think the Comments would be different.   But it would be pretty much the same scenario as to what happened here.

Good point.  

[Carey]

  

4 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

Why not here? Survivor is all about social dynamics. The only reason race has not been discussed in past seasons is because there have been one or two Black contestants, max, and to bring up racial issues would mean a quick demise. With a possible support system brings the opportunity to discuss things that have always been present, just never brought forth. And I think that’s a great thing. 

It wasn't the best thing to bring up race at this tribal council is because there was no evidence that Jonathan, Tori, and Lindsay were going to target Drea and MaryAnne based off of the color of their skin.  Of course there will never actually indicate that, period.  However, while there was an uneasy feeling toward Drea & MaryAnne, I don't think it was fair on everyone else to be put on notice, or be reminded of what they've been through.  That likely is directed that life itself as much as the show itself.

Technically, they could've argued & said that Omar (and to a lesser extent, Hai & Romeo) caused this.  Not us.  

Overall, 30 Helens, open discussion is healthy.  Tough or not, it helps people "come to the middle" in terms of one option or the other.  Or they can agree to disagree, but respectfully.  You respect one's opinion.

To be fair toward Drea & MaryAnne, they were targets tonight.  No matter the reason, it would have been awful IMO for either one to go, especially with the other likely going next time.  That would've been a bad look, and just because it's post-merge doesn't change that. 

To be fair toward Jonathan, a move needed to be made toward Drea, who had an advantage.  Any argument there is fair enough.  However, support toward Drea & MaryAnne returns since you sorta have to boot Tori given what she'd done at that point + her advantage.  Despite the concern, I don't think Jonathan (and Lindsay & Tori) is (are) racist.  However, it's more probable than not that Jon may feel that he's better than everyone else.  So that's an issue in and of itself.

While it's sad Rocks got the boot, there was still an ounce of Karma there.  Technically, if he and Drea went for Romeo previously, none of this would've happened.  Still, I'm glad to see the show trend more toward diversity

[rr2911]

16 minutes ago, Carey said:

I think he's a minority.  As mentioned, Puerto Rican.  Neither black nor white.  Speaking of which, I've spent the entire season thinking of who the heck he looks like, but everytime I draw a blank

I think one of his parents is black.

[Carey]

1 minute ago, rr2911 said:

18 minutes ago, Carey said:

I think he's a minority.  As mentioned, Puerto Rican.  Neither black nor white.  Speaking of which, I've spent the entire season thinking of who the heck he looks like, but everytime I draw a blank

I think one of his parents is black.

Gotcha; guess it's mixed/interracial.

As mentioned, I had no idea he was black, and I believe the reason why is related to the fact that I just recalled who he reminded me of.  Kevin Dillon is not black I don't think.  I spent some time thinking of which celebrity Mike reminded me of.  To Mike's credit, he's been pretty okay in terms of his character & how he acts on the show

[HurricaneVal]

There's.....a lot to unpack with this episode.

Yes.  I'm disappointed in Jonathan.  Thinking about it, prior to the merge he didn't have any bros to bond with so he got tight with his own tribe.  Post merge, when he could bond with the other alpha males he apparently craved, he did so.  Not really a good look.  He did seem to eventually be able to read the room, so he did shut up during the latter half of tribal council.  

I get where Drea was coming from.  I can see how she saw the optics.  There is no denying racism is real.  There is no denying Drea's words at TC came from a well of pain, but I don't exactly think the jury situation came from the same source as that pain.  It was symbolic of the larger world, for sure.  How many times have we seen on highly unbalanced casts on Survivor or Big Brother or Bachelor etc. eliminate the POC first.  But Drea was only seeing the first two members of the jury, not seeing the prior the castaways voted out first and second and third etc.  The first two on the jury, and therefore very visible in that moment, being black just brought it all down at once for her.  She was articulating a bigger picture, which though prompted by the smaller picture in front of her, wasn't necessarily the origins of that smaller picture.  As others have said, Drea voted for Chanelle herself.  Peer pressure, or strategy?  Who knows.  

It was a good conversation, it was just a bit of a mismatch to the circumstances.

It might have been lost in the heat of the moment, but Maryanne clearly demonstrated she's not the airhead immature chatterbox she's been presenting up to now.  She's got some layers.  She's playing a deeper game than most realize. 

I don't understand how what should of been a slam dunk vote for Tori--the target, but for individual immunity, of both post merge votes--into what we saw.  Flushing the idol(s) is a strategy for sure, but not with those limited merged-but-separated tribe numbers.  Flush idols when there's more people voting, and more potential options in a larger tribe, not when in a small tribe.

This was interesting.  I've got to think on that some more.

[meatball77]

49 minutes ago, eskimo said:

Am I the only one who had no idea Mike is Black?  I legitimately did not know that, but more than one person has mentioned it.  

Boy did the first team to tribal mess things up!  Drea did not bother me, but I wanted to see her go tonight. Well not her actually, but all those advantages. No one player should have so many.  I thought I'd be happier to see Tori go, but not like this.  

I wonder if all the pre-jury boots had been sitting there as well, and the actual vote-offs-by-race could be visualized, would Drea have gone?  It did look terrible with Chanelle and Rocks sitting over there, knowing Drea had a high chance of sitting with them.  But it really didn't represent anything race related, just that #'s 6 and 7 were both Black and happened to be the first jury members.  

 

I think the result is the same either way.  It was her flat out saying I'm using my idol and I'm not voting for Maryanne because the optics of this sucks which changed.

[Goosey]

4 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Misogyny Club

Misogyny by definition is "dislike, contempt, or prejudice against women." You're using that word very loosely, as if it applies to every situation in which a group of men decide that their gender is going to be the commonality they try to build a voting block around. Acknowledging your gender is not misogynistic nor does it make you a misandrist.  Everyone in the game searches for similarities with the other players to try and secure themselves further, especially when they're facing down TC. They were never fielding the idea that they were better than women or that they deserved to be here over them solely because of their gender, they were just grasping at whatever the greatest common factor among them was. Something all players must do to survive, lest they find themselves on the outs.

The idea that using your gender to form an alliance defaults to misogyny is a double standard. It's the same as creating an all-female alliance, an all-minority alliance, a cop alliance, a firefighter alliance, a hometown alliance, an alliance based on age, or whatever other similarity you decide to rally behind for that stage of the game. It's not misogyny, it's not misandry, it's not racism, it's not ageism, it's not prejudice of any kind. It's about finding the majority or the GCF among a given group of unique individuals in a numbers game. You're only diluting an otherwise very powerful term.

[MsTree]

6 hours ago, Brendan Birch said:

Four of forty-one -- Vecepia Towery (Marquesas, season four), Earl Cole (Fiji, season fourteen), Jeremy Collins (Cambodia/Second Chances, season thirty-one), and Wendell Holland (Ghost Island, season thirty-six).  So less than ten percent.

I'm going to assume the poster was considering Sandra (who won TWICE) as black, which she appears to be.

That said, I'm sick & tired of race being brought up too...for all the reasons already given. And Maryann, I don't give a shit if you are black, brown, purple or any color of the rainbow, I'd vote your ass out just because you're annoying as hell with all your whining and crying. Play the damn game without all the drama, okay?

[MsTree]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

3 hours ago, Jules1 said:

I look forward to a season where people work together because they like each other as PEOPLE, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference or religion. 

Has there ever been such a season?

I'm guessing not.

Probably Season One, with (straight) Rudy and (gay) Richard's alliance. Both tribes worked together regardless of who they were or where they came from. I believe they all really liked one another as people, which became evident when Dr. Sean couldn't decide who to vote out, so he decided their fate and voted each tribe member out via the alphabet. 

[JudyObscure]

CBS executives must be jumping for joy.  They promised 50% "diversity" (translate to no more than 50% white  people) so now they're set up for all sorts of special moments when people burst into tears over the ghastly optics of two black people sitting side by side. Considering the racial make-up after the merge it was more than likely that such a thing would happen.

Maryanne is studying to be a preacher so I wasn't surprised that she could pull  a moving speech together, perhaps lines from a sermon  she's used to giving. Anyone who has followed Survivor in recent years should have something prepared if they want extra screen time. I'm sure she saw the du-rag speech. Several times now she's indicated that she knows how to manipulate emotions and is willing to do it to advance in the game. If she can get Jonathan out soon I think she has a very good chance to win. 

I was really impressed with Tori at tribal.  Jonathan said all the wrong things, Lindsey said all the right things. and Tori was caught in the awkward position of either sounding like she was echoing Lindsey or risk stepping in a mine field in an effort to express something different. So she switched gears and made it all about her shot in the dark.  I'll bet she was just grateful to get away before she made the wrong facial expression and ruined her life.

[lawrbk]

6 hours ago, MerBearHou said:

The fact that Tribal #2 got to see who had just been voted off was a major game-changer and IMO not a fair one.  The optics of Chanelle and likely a seething RocksRoy sitting next to each other changed everything instantly before the 2nd vote-off.  

I’m not a Tori fan but I hated that 2nd tribal.  

That’s how it’s been before—the second group coming in and all. As they were getting ready to walk in/were walking in, I told my hubby ‘both jury members are black’ and he was like ‘oh wow’. I didn’t know how it would play out but even I, a middle aged white woman, saw the optics. Yes, neither vote was racial and both were voted out at least partly by other POC. But it hit me and it obviously hit Drea and Maryanne. I still like Jonathan but I cringed when he went full ‘it’s not race/I’m not a racist’ straight out of the gate. Not every comment or discussion about race involves calling someone a racist. And Drea wasn’t being aggressive. It’s like as soon as someone (white) hears ‘race’, the defenses go up and all they hear is ‘you’re a racist/people are all racists’. No, they were stating their impressions which were racial and I thought explained it well if you were not just listening but hearing. Talking less, hearing more can actually be a good thing. You don’t even have to end up agreeing with the person, just listen and understand. 

[DEL901]

I thought it was funny during the vote where Tori asked Jonathan why he was voting for her.  He said she lied.  She said fair enough and then seemed surprised when he said he felt closer to Lyndsey.   He was on a tribe with Lyndsey.   Of course he felt closer to her.  

[ihartcoffee]

I used to love Survivor,  it's a struggle to watch now.  Too woke maybe?  Rocks deserved his vote out, he was tone deaf.  Didn't see how bossy he was to the smaller guys.  So for them to turn it into a race issue?  I'm over it. 

[SuburbanHangSuite]

So I'm steering clear of the emotional TC and I'm choosing to focus on my favorite Moment of Pettiness:

Rocks joining Chanelle on The Jury and whispering, "Hai and Romeo joined together against me.  I hope they freeze."

HA!  Made me like his annoying ass just a little.

[nlkm9]

7 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

"That escalated quickly." "Yeah, that really jumped up a notch."

I think that Tribal Council will lead to a finale in front of a studio audience. I make immature jokes about Probst and what turns him on, but you have to admit that he's probably a huge fan of doing A Very Special Episode. This time, there's no horrible party attached to it like Varner or Feely Dan. He will be compelled to show that Survivor is relevant, and that people on the streets are talking to him about what we saw tonight. Never mind that Jeffy has probably forgotten what streets look like. Survivor is important!

I can't blame Maryanne and Drea on how they felt. I feel that you cannot NOT see race in that situation. But I don't think Chanelle and Rocksroy getting voted off signals a troubling trend. CBS has mandated diversity for their reality shows' casts. Rocksroy was probably going to get voted out in most scenarios. We just saw the one where he was with four other guys, and the other guys convinced each other that they should stay in the game.

Jonathan? Oy. I figure that Tribal Council last hours, and he was probably sleep-deprived, but he should have kept mum. Also, I'm thinking that an unflattering scene like that might indicate that he's not going to win. Like I said in the live thread, I'd thought he'd go out early in the Immunity Challenge. He's a big guy and he had to keep steady on his platform, and he pulled it off.

One benefit to that second Tribal is that Tori is out. If her Shot In The Dark had made her safe, I would have suspected tampering. Okay, not really, but she had been lucky the past few episodes.

Rocksroy is also out, so I'll probably have to cool it on the "Rocksroy sounds like a Pokemon name" jokes.

They needed to end with a screenshot of both drea and rocksroy voting for chanel. This is a game. Im not sure i can watch anymore. I did love seeing the depth of maryanne, but would like to hear from drea why she voted for chanel since she helped put her there. 

[Guest]

So I didn't get to watch this live because my local CBS station decided to show a Republican gubernatorial debate, even though the local NBC station was also showing it. Not sure what that was about.

So I watched it this morning, and yuck. I'm really trying not to fault Drea and Maryanne for what they were feeling in that moment, but...that's how Tori goes out? I knew the odds were good that she was done and would have been prepared for her to leave, but...that's how? With a whimper non-vote afterthought?

Kinda bullshit.

[Haleth]

I was heartsick for how much Drea was hurting.  The look on her face when she saw the jury was like a knife in the heart.  (Honestly, it took Drea pointing out the obvious before I saw it, which I realize is a problem with me.)  It was a bad game plan, dividing everyone into 2 groups, given the way they were sorted out.  Letting group 2 see that Rocksroy had been voted out without any context definitely led to the conversation (and vote) that followed.  As pointed out, the 5 guys team consisted of all persons of color (yay, Survivor for being more diverse?), but any of the others being voted out would not have had the same impact on the women.  It wasn't about 2 Black people being voted out in a row, it was about very likely a third in either Drea or Maryanne immediately following Rocks to the jury bench regardless of the reason.  It was surprising that Maryanne was better able to keep her emotions in control as she expressed her views, poor Drea was a mess.  Maryanne was also cognizant of the optics of them speaking their mind and seemingly guilting the others into not voting for them.  That was very brave of her to insist they sacrifice their idols to show the race card wasn't their intention. 

[DEL901]

2 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I was heartsick for how much Drea was hurting.  The look on her face when she saw the jury was like a knife in the heart.  (Honestly, it took Drea pointing out the obvious before I saw it, which I realize is a problem with me.)  It was a bad game plan, dividing everyone into 2 groups, given the way they were sorted out.  Letting group 2 see that Rocksroy had been voted out without any context definitely led to the conversation (and vote) that followed.  As pointed out, the 5 guys team consisted of all persons of color (yay, Survivor for being more diverse?), but any of the others being voted out would not have had the same impact on the women.  It wasn't about 2 Black people being voted out in a row, it was about very likely a third in either Drea or Maryanne immediately following Rocks to the jury bench regardless of the reason.  It was surprising that Maryanne was better able to keep her emotions in control as she expressed her views, poor Drea was a mess.  Maryanne was also cognizant of the optics of them speaking their mind and seemingly guilting the others into not voting for them.  That was very brave of her to insist they sacrifice their idols to show the race card wasn't their intention. 

Yes, it is very easy to talk about keeping race out of things, but easier if you are white and race hasn’t been part of your daily struggle all your life. 

While I applaud CBS for ensuring the racial diversity of its shows reflect the country, it can easily descend into what in the 90s (approximate timing) cop shows was called Black Lieutenants Syndrome.  Not only did they add a black character, but they were the boss over white characters, they bragged.  But at the end of the day, who got the most screen time?  Who was the hero?

And now to something no one has called out yet…it was only last season that Canadians have been allowed to participate.  Last season, Erika, the Canadian won   This season both Omar and MaryAnne have a shot at winning… coincidence?  Or stealth Canadian domination?

 

 

[violet and green]

Oh, what a bummer. I really liked Rocksroy. That was stupid, and now I am over Omar, loathe Hai and Romeo, and Tori's gone without that footage we saw in the first episode ever being shown, wtf! 

[Chicago Redshirt]

4 hours ago, MsTree said:

Probably Season One, with (straight) Rudy and (gay) Richard's alliance. Both tribes worked together regardless of who they were or where they came from. I believe they all really liked one another as people, which became evident when Dr. Sean couldn't decide who to vote out, so he decided their fate and voted each tribe member out via the alphabet. 

I think what I'm looking for is something different. I'm sure there are instances in every season where people bond as people despite their differences.

I'm looking for a season in which not a single player tried to use race/gender/sexual orientation/religion as a means/basis to bond with another player or to justify going after them. 

That's what "people working together because they like each other as PEOPLE, regardless of race, gender, sexual preference or religion." means to me.

It's been typical in the seasons I've watched for there to be talk, however shortlived, of a men's alliance or a women's alliance.  

[Whimsy]

14 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The vote wasn’t about race. I think everyone on that group was a minority. Mike and Rocksroy are Black, Omar is a Muslim, Romeo is Hispanic. Hai is Asian. That is not what Drea or Maryann was saying. 

They were looking at the fact that two Blacks were voted out back to back and it reminded them of how hard it is for Black people to win. It reminded them of the baggage that they carry, even if they don’t think that the people they were playing with were racist. It was more of a sledgehammer reminder of the barriers that Black people face in the world. 

I am not going to get what they were feeling because I don’t share the history they do and I don’t see the day to day implications of being Black. The extra scrutiny and burden. Seeing two Black people voted out back to back was a visual reminder of what they face in the real world.

 

14 hours ago, DEL901 said:

Well, they do like to call Survivor a social experiment.   This isn’t the first time race has come up, and such discussions can be uncomfortable, but I thought Drea, and especially MaryAnne, were articulate and speaking their truth…they weren’t making accusations of racism or lecturing or “speaking aggressively“.  Jeff asked what they were feeling and they told him.  Their daily challenges spilled into the game…aka social experiment.   And if it made some people uncomfortable (looking at you Jonathan), sometimes that’s when you learn.  

As for Rocksroy…. He forgot the cardinal rule of Survivor…when they aren’t talking strategy with you, they are talking about you.  

 

13 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

No one said it was "strictly a racial issue." In fact, the reasons both Rocksroy and Chanelle got the boot had nothing to do with their race. As people here have said, Rocksroy was voted off entirely by non-white players because of traits that had nothing to do with his race -- he was stubborn and was deemed to hard to work with down the line. And although it was not fully stated, because Romeo is someone who is not (at least, judging by the three other people who could have voted for him) seemingly a social game threat or an immunity challenge threat. Chanelle's ouster was instigated and insisted upon by Mike, another Black player, because Chanelle lied to him and also wrote his name down for no reason.

Even taking it as purely the coincidence it is that the first two players voted off in the merge are Black, then there's yet another layer of coincidence that instead of going for what should have been an easy vote (hmm, the annoying woman who has no allies/ties and yet who has won two individual immunities is still around). somebody who happens to be a big White dude from Alabama stirs the pot and comes up with a plan that puts the two Black women at risk. And the Black women seemingly know that he's doing this. Now Jonathan is seemingly a good dude from everything we've seen. I have no reason to think that he's any more racist than anyone who has grown up in a society that has been fueled by overt and subconscious racism for centuries. But I hope people can understand why Drea and Maryanne's Spidey-senses would be tingling at all this. 

 

11 hours ago, 30 Helens said:

Why not here? Survivor is all about social dynamics. The only reason race has not been discussed in past seasons is because there have been one or two Black contestants, max, and to bring up racial issues would mean a quick demise. With a possible support system brings the opportunity to discuss things that have always been present, just never brought forth. And I think that’s a great thing. 

I really felt for Drea when she said she had to watch what she said and how she said it. The Angry Black Woman is a stereotype that prevents so many women like her from speaking their truth lest they be instantly dismissed. And it’s a stereotype that has been, unfortunately, perpetuated by this very show. I can’t imagine how frustrating it must feel to have to parse your words so carefully.

Episodes like this are a great way to experience other perspectives and maybe look at interpersonal dynamics in a different way. It’s a chance to learn and grow. I don’t understand why anyone would think that’s a bad thing. If I wanted to keep my head in the sand and not learn a thing, I’d just watch an episode of Is It Cake.

I do think the relative novelty of this has to be considered. Anyone who doesn’t understand why People of Color would find strength and solidarity in this type of situation have clearly never been in a situation where they were the perpetual minority. Maybe as seasons pass and racial equality becomes the new norm, race will become a non factor. That would be great. It would also be great if it happened in society at large. But until white people understand and accept the reasons Drea and Maryanne responded as they did tonight, nothing will change.

 

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

I was heartsick for how much Drea was hurting.  The look on her face when she saw the jury was like a knife in the heart.  (Honestly, it took Drea pointing out the obvious before I saw it, which I realize is a problem with me.)  It was a bad game plan, dividing everyone into 2 groups, given the way they were sorted out.  Letting group 2 see that Rocksroy had been voted out without any context definitely led to the conversation (and vote) that followed.  As pointed out, the 5 guys team consisted of all persons of color (yay, Survivor for being more diverse?), but any of the others being voted out would not have had the same impact on the women.  It wasn't about 2 Black people being voted out in a row, it was about very likely a third in either Drea or Maryanne immediately following Rocks to the jury bench regardless of the reason.  It was surprising that Maryanne was better able to keep her emotions in control as she expressed her views, poor Drea was a mess.  Maryanne was also cognizant of the optics of them speaking their mind and seemingly guilting the others into not voting for them.  That was very brave of her to insist they sacrifice their idols to show the race card wasn't their intention. 

I just want to applaud these posts.  They were thoughtfully written and really highlight what Drea & Maryann was saying.  

[ProfCrash]

Not bothering trying to pull together all the quotes for this one...

There are multiple truths from last nights episode. 

Truth 1: Rocksroy was voted out because his social game sucked. We have seen him struggle socially all season long. He was bossy and on the outside from day one. He ended up allied with Drea and Romeo out of necessity not because Drea and Romeo really like him. Omar was clear that Rocksroy was not his ally because Rocksroy only approached him for this one particular alliance. Hai indicated that Rocksroy had not been talking to him much. Rocksroy did not approach Hai or Omar to talk and discuss a course of action but to dictate a course of action. Rocksroy was voted out because he was not a good Survivor player. He was voted out by 4 other people who happen to be minorities themselves. He was not voted out because he was black.

Truth 2: All the players bring their baggage into the game. For Drea and Maryann, that means that they bring all the times that they were looked down upon or treated poorly or knew people who were treated poorly because they were Black. They expected Romeo to go because of Romeo's behavior and because Romeo had been outside the larger alliance while Rocksroy was in that alliance. The shock of seeing Rocksroy there and not Romeo AND realizing that Chanelle was there caused that past baggage of poor, ie racist, treatment in the past to surface. Both Drea and Maryann said that they did not think that race was a factor in this particular game BUT that they were both staring at past history and patterns and that they did not want to fall prey to that. 

Two truths, well more then that but those are the two that people are most focused on. 

Neither truth is wrong or nullifies the other, they co-exist. 

Tori had been a target for a while and was the choice I would have expected last night. I don't think it was a bad idea to try and blindside Drea, she has three advantages that the Tribe knows of (idol, extra vote, and amulet). She has a huge target on her back in the game. Maryann and Mike have targets on their back because they have advantages as well. That is a part of the game. Taking out Drea when she expected a Tori vote was a solid plan. 

Jonathon's problem was that he should have kept telling Drea that they were targeting Tori so the extra vote(s) went to Tori incase Drea played an idol. Jonathon was not willing to listen to Lyndsey's logic, which was spot on, and pulled the ridiculous "emotional" card when the two of them were talking.

I don't have a problem with the "Man's alliance" idea, any more then I have a problem with a "Woman's alliance" idea.  Mainly because they never work but also because I can see why the bigger guys are worried about being targets. 

I do have a problem with Jonathon's mansplaining to Lyndsey and his pulling the "your too emotional" bullshit. He did not help himself when he told Drea that he was not a racist (and I don't think that he is) and then followed up with telling Drea that she was being aggressive. 

Jonathon just fell from my "I want him to win" to a dude who seems to be a good guy but who is kind of dick to women and cannot step back to see other peoples points of view. I don't think he is a misogynist and I don't think he is a racist. I do think he has some stereotypical view points that he needs to address. 

I thought it was a strong episode because the conversation was far more nuanced then the conversation from last season. I think most of the people came out looking pretty good. I thought it was a hard conversation but one that is clear depiction of what is happening in the US today.