S42.E09: Game of Chicken

[ProfCrash]

7 minutes ago, cdnalor said:

An emotional breakdown and talk of a pattern seems like more than a suggestion to me.  It sounds like Drea is saying "I don't wanna sound racist, but..."  We know what comes after that.

Drea and Maryann both said that they didn't see anyone playing as racist. 

They both stated that they have the baggage that comes with being Black and their response was driven by their past experiences, a knowledge of how things have played out in the past for Black players (when they were voted out and how they were portrayed), as well as their understanding of systemic racism. That informed their reaction. 

You can choose to accept their words or not but that is what they said. 

Drea was the target for the night, because of her advantages. She sensed something was up, she said so in a confessional before the tribal. So she was on edge. Drea's number one, Rocksroy, was blindsided. Heck the whole second tribe was shocked to see Rocksroy was there. It is easy to see that there was a confluence of events. Surprises in the game and the knowledge of Survivor history and real history for Black people. 

I think people know my thoughts on this so I'll stop kicking a dead horse. 

[After7Only]

 

4 hours ago, millennium said:

I don't see how Survivor survives if players have to fear insinuations of racism at Tribal Council and in front of the whole world because they voted somebody out.  

The same way it did in previous seasons when racism has been brought up or in the multiple seasons (including this very episode) where misogyny is discussed.   Jonathan should be just as concerned about the response to his mansplaining than anything Drea/Mary Ann said.   

Like it or not both misogyny and racism (and plenty of other isms) are part of society.  And if Survivor is really a social experiment, then viewers need to see and experience it all.   

[Guest]

Another possible outcome of discussions like this episode's TC (and last season's with Deshawn/Danny/Liana) is that, rather than it leading to people fearing to vote someone out because of accusations of racism, perhaps it will lead to people taking a moment to think about their reasons for voting someone out and recognizing that bias is perhaps playing a part ("Is this person really aggressive/standoffish/not part of the group, or am I just perceiving them that way because they look different than me?"). Not that bias is always or even mostly playing a part in voting decisions, but if this makes people more aware of the times that it does, I don't think that's a bad thing that will kill the show. I would think it would be just the opposite.

Edited April 29, 2022 by tracyscott76

[nlkm9]

19 hours ago, Mediocre Gatsby said:

Jonathan isn't being "vilified" for talking back to Drea -- people dislike that he spoke down to both Lindsey and Drea by ignoring the substance of what they said and dismissively telling them that they were being aggressive and loud. Which neither one was. 

yet drea was hugging him during the vote. whatever. 

7 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

Another possible outcome of discussions like this episode's TC (and last season's with Deshawn/Danny/Liana) is that, rather than it leading to people fearing to vote someone out because of accusations of racism, perhaps it will lead to people taking a moment to think about their reasons for voting someone out and recognizing that bias is perhaps playing a part ("Is this person really aggressive/standoffish/not part of the group, or am I just perceiving them that way because they look different than me?"). Not that bias is always or even mostly playing a part in voting decisions, but if this makes people more aware of the times that it does, I don't think that's a bad thing that will kill the show. I would think it would be just the opposite.

perhaps, but I would sure like to know why maryann and Drea voted to remove other people of color....

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

perhaps, but I would sure like to know why maryann and Drea voted to remove other people of color....

I think the short answer to your question is that Drea voted out Chanelle because she wasn't in her alliance, a game move, but with the sudden development of Rocksroy going next, other, more serious factors came into play and she adjusted her thinking in the moment. I don't think Maryanne's voting history applies.

The longer answer:

The definition of "people of color" seems to fluctuate based on circumstance, but it isn't a monolith, and in this instance, I think it's pretty clear that Drea and Maryanne were talking more specifically about African Americans. Prior to this vote Maryanne had voted for Marya, Lydia, and Romeo. I'm not exactly sure how Marya identifies herself, but I wouldn't say she is obviously African American, and Lydia and Romeo definitely are not. Drea voted for Chanelle, yes, but her other votes up to that point were for Zach, Swati, and Lydia. So between the two of them, they've cast one, maybe two votes for other African Americans.

But those statistics are irrelevant to the situation as Drea and Maryanne experienced it at this tribal council. They were going along playing the game just as everyone else was, and then were confronted with the unexpected visual of Chanelle and Rocksroy sitting on the bench together, and the knowledge that they were each planning on voting for another African American at the upcoming vote, which would be three in a row. Drea even said, voting out Chanelle was one thing, but seeing Rocksroy there as well seemed to set up a pattern that she could not bring herself to perpetuate. It was a visceral, emotional reaction, which they acknowledged.

Of course, with the increased diversity in the casting, there are likely to be more instances of several African Americans being voted out in a row, but as the diverse casts become the norm rather than a novel approach, I think the reactions to this will settle down, and players will be more comfortable voting how they please.

Possibly my longest post ever. My apologies.

[Whimsy]

Discussion for this thread will be limited to what was seen on the screen for this episode. ANY posts that are not related to the episode will be removed. 
 

This is also your reminder to stay civil in your discussion.

[millennium]

8 hours ago, After7Only said:

Like it or not both misogyny and racism (and plenty of other isms) are part of society.  And if Survivor is really a social experiment, then viewers need to see and experience it all.   

But it's not a social experiment, not really.   The version of Survivor we are shown is filmed, edited and re-edited to produce a pre-determined result.  Any value or insight that might be gleaned from the raw Survivor experience has been thoroughly corrupted by the editors cherry-picking dramatic moments and framing them in whatever context gives them the most bang for their buck.  I keep hearing people say Jonathan is a misogynist.   Why?  Because he said a couple of ignorant things?  Newsflash: most of us say ignorant things from time to time.   Thank heaven we don't have a camera following us around 24/7 or producers with the ability to render days of dialogue down into a "greatest hits" reel skewed to make us look like assholes.  Who knows, Jonathan may have exhibited other behavior that day/week that makes his "mansplaining" moment seem more like an outlier but we'll never know if the producers don't want us to.

It has often been said that Tribal Councils can sometimes go on for an hour or more.  I'd like to see the full, unedited version of this week's Tribal Council.   CBS wants us to be debating this stuff, does anyone really believe they didn't edit it to produce that  result?

[After7Only]

16 hours ago, millennium said:

But it's not a social experiment, not really.   The version of Survivor we are shown is filmed, edited and re-edited to produce a pre-determined result.  Any value or insight that might be gleaned from the raw Survivor experience has been thoroughly corrupted by the editors cherry-picking dramatic moments and framing them in whatever context gives them the most bang for their buck.  I keep hearing people say Jonathan is a misogynist.   Why?  Because he said a couple of ignorant things?  Newsflash: most of us say ignorant things from time to time.   Thank heaven we don't have a camera following us around 24/7 or producers with the ability to render days of dialogue down into a "greatest hits" reel skewed to make us look like assholes.  Who knows, Jonathan may have exhibited other behavior that day/week that makes his "mansplaining" moment seem more like an outlier but we'll never know if the producers don't want us to.

It has often been said that Tribal Councils can sometimes go on for an hour or more.  I'd like to see the full, unedited version of this week's Tribal Council.   CBS wants us to be debating this stuff, does anyone really believe they didn't edit it to produce that  result?

 

Yes, and some of those ignorant things can be misogynistic or even……racist……even though the person wasn’t necessarily consciously trying to be either.    

Jonathon may or may not be a misogynist.  But the ignorant things he said and did were colored in misogyny.   He did not treat the short lived guy alliance like he treated the ladies in camp.   

Survivor bills itself as a social experiment.   And while they edit the footage into storylines, at the end of the day the can only edit the footage that contestants provide and use the words actually said.     The mere mention of racism is a trigger to some.   CBS didn’t need to produce anything.   We could watch 2 hours of a tribal council that ended with everyone hugging and agreeing, but all some people would take from it was Drea and MaryAnn are horrible because they don’t want to vote out a black person.    

 

 

Edited April 30, 2022 by After7Only

[Nashville]

On 4/28/2022 at 3:18 PM, eel21788 said:

I went to college with someone who claimed Jesus was giving her bad grades because he didn't want her to be a doctor.

Sounds like Jesus was pretty smart.

On 4/28/2022 at 5:36 PM, blackwing said:

I cannot remember, was Maryanne told about the plan to vote out Drea?  If not, who was she going to vote for?  If she was in on it, it seemed she had no issues voting Drea out until she was surprised that Rocksroy had been voted out.

If you’ll recall Jonathan’s and Maryanne’s pre-TC conversation on the beach, Maryanne was positively ecstatic at the prospect of evicting Drea - at least until Jonathan said to Maryanne, “We all vote for Drea, and we tell Drea to vote for you” (accurately but rather boneheadedly suggesting Drea would consider Maryanne a plausible TC target because of her 3-way idol).

Maryanne was rather less than thrilled at the prospect of her name being floated to Drea, but had zero problems with voting Drea out - right up until they entered TC, that is….

————

Oh, and FYI (because I saw it asked earlier but didn’t see an answer posted): at Chanelle’s eviction Drea had voted Chanelle, but Maryanne had voted Romeo.

[Haleth]

I don't see any hypocrisy in Maryanne and Drea voting for Chanelle or Maryanne wanting to vote for Drea.  They never said a Black person should not be voted out ever, but the prospect of three Black people voted out in a row?  That doesn't look good.  Everyone is at risk at the next vote.

[nlkm9]

36 minutes ago, Haleth said:

I don't see any hypocrisy in Maryanne and Drea voting for Chanelle or Maryanne wanting to vote for Drea.  They never said a Black person should not be voted out ever, but the prospect of three Black people voted out in a row?  That doesn't look good.  Everyone is at risk at the next vote.

We can agree to disagree on that. No they never said anyone black shouldnt be voted out, but they both voted for black people and then had this reaction, while understandable , was partly a result of their actions. 

[GenerationX]

And now for something completely different:

• Interesting that Rocksoy thought that Hai and Romeo had conspired to get him out.  It was actually Omar behind it.  Omar is quietly playing a fascinating, fantastic game.
• Jonathon's strategy in the IC was the most sound.  He was the only one hunched over, presumably to lower his center of gravity.
• Normally you'd think getting two idols flushed at TC was a big deal.  Now it is a relative drop in the bucket, given the Survivor Advantage economy's high inflation rate.

[treeofdreams]

3 hours ago, GenerationX said:

Jonathon's strategy in the IC was the most sound.  He was the only one hunched over, presumably to lower his center of gravity.

Jonathan is a surfer, he is used to balancing against the movement of water, and staying upright in challenging conditions.  When the competition started, I expected him to do well.

[himela]

My next to zero interest in this season got a point but not in the way I would hope. I still dislike everyone and I don't care who wins. I wouldn't even write in this thread if not to ask, did this tribal council take place before the cookout in BB? If the last survivor seasons were played May of 2021, it means that BB had not started yet. This is an interesting point if my thought is correct because I can better justify their emotions that PoC are not well represented in these games.

But to comment specifically for this tribal council I have no idea how the race idea came from. Rocks was voted out because he was a wild card and we saw how Mike (a white guy) struggled to be convinced by another person of color, Hai. So I find it unfair and wrong that they assumed Rocks was voted out because of his color.

I'm happy Tori left because she was the cockroach of this season who even thought she is nicer than people think when they meet her. Zero self knowledge.

[PaperTree]

As for Jonathan (and the rest of us at times):

When you find yourself in a hole, Stop Digging!

[himela]

39 minutes ago, Brendan Birch said:

Then why watch?

Tradition :P

[himela]

On 4/28/2022 at 4:39 AM, ProfCrash said:

Mike and Rocksroy are Black

I'm sorry to ask but is Mike really black? I posted yesterday he was white and I was sure about this but now I'm not anymore. Sorry if I'm mistaken (I probably am).

[Valerie]

I think Mike is a POC -- I can't remember but I think he's Hispanic?

Edit: I could be totally wrong, but I believe he mentioned his roots during his introduction in the premiere.

Edited May 1, 2022 by Valerie

[deirdra]

He has some Puerto Rican heritage, which can include Black.  I know Black guys and White guys with features like his.  But he seems to identify himself as a tough, blue-collar guy.

Edited May 1, 2022 by deirdra

[nlkm9]

Why was tori a target? Because the 2 women of color played their idols and essentially she was voted out because of her white skin color . I will not miss her but hypocrite much ?? 

[violet and green]

6 minutes ago, nlkm9 said:

Why was tori a target? Because the 2 women of color played their idols and essentially she was voted out because of her white skin color . I will not miss her but hypocrite much ?? 

Really? The alternative would have been for Jonathan or Lindsay to vote for one another; and given Jonathan, Lindsay and Maryanne are aligned from day one on Taku, and everyone has been trying to get Tori out for weeks (including Drea and her other tribemates from Ika), it is hardly a surprise!

[jabRI]

I think Jonathon is a decent guy, but with limitations.  He was definitley out of his element talking to the women in his tribe, but I feel like he is totally clueless as to what the problem is.  In my opinion, he just doesnt' have any empathy and literally cannot fathom how other people perceive him.  It's a limitiation more that a character flaw.  Not a popular opinion I'm sure, but that's how I see it.

[seltzer3]

On 4/30/2022 at 1:34 AM, Nashville said:

Sounds like Jesus was pretty smart.

If you’ll recall Jonathan’s and Maryanne’s pre-TC conversation on the beach, Maryanne was positively ecstatic at the prospect of evicting Drea - at least until Jonathan said to Maryanne, “We all vote for Drea, and we tell Drea to vote for you” (accurately but rather boneheadedly suggesting Drea would consider Maryanne a plausible TC target because of her 3-way idol).

Maryanne was rather less than thrilled at the prospect of her name being floated to Drea, but had zero problems with voting Drea out - right up until they entered TC, that is….

————

Oh, and FYI (because I saw it asked earlier but didn’t see an answer posted): at Chanelle’s eviction Drea had voted Chanelle, but Maryanne had voted Romeo.

Yeah, I feel that really triggered Maryanne.

Chanelle gets voted off?  Fine.

The combination of being told to vote for Drea? Fine.

Being told that Drea is voting for her as a backup.  Red flag.

Then seeing Rocksroy as opposed to Romeo, was the straw that broke the camel's back.
 

[ByaNose]

I’m curious how much after the double Tribal Councils we’ll get to see this week. Who gets in the most trouble and who comes out of it unscathed?! I know everyone says Individual Immunity is important but this week it will be major. If you don’t have immunity, an idol or advantage you are major trouble. One thing we have to see if another idol (or two) are put back in the game since Drea & Maryann played theirs. It should be a interesting episode.

[nlkm9]

11 hours ago, jabRI said:

I think Jonathon is a decent guy, but with limitations.  He was definitley out of his element talking to the women in his tribe, but I feel like he is totally clueless as to what the problem is.  In my opinion, he just doesnt' have any empathy and literally cannot fathom how other people perceive him.  It's a limitiation more that a character flaw.  Not a popular opinion I'm sure, but that's how I see it.

agreed. not a malicious guy, but not the sharpest tool in the shed. but I dont want o pigeon hole him into the "big dumb macho guy" because there is way more to him than that. 

[nlkm9]

11 hours ago, violet and green said:

Really? The alternative would have been for Jonathan or Lindsay to vote for one another; and given Jonathan, Lindsay and Maryanne are aligned from day one on Taku, and everyone has been trying to get Tori out for weeks (including Drea and her other tribemates from Ika), it is hardly a surprise!

I was not saying it is a surprise, I was happy to see Tori and her ridiculous eyerollls and exaggerated facial expressions gone. I cant put my finger on what it was about her that grated on me so--probably the eyerolls and faces--she reminded me of jenny mccarthy who when she first broke on the scene was always making ridiculous exaggerated faces. so people may say Tori is. a truly wonderful person outside the game, in the game she ws tough t watch.

[DEL901]

11 hours ago, violet and green said:

Really? The alternative would have been for Jonathan or Lindsay to vote for one another; and given Jonathan, Lindsay and Maryanne are aligned from day one on Taku, and everyone has been trying to get Tori out for weeks (including Drea and her other tribemates from Ika), it is hardly a surprise!

And Jonathan had immunity.  It was between Tori and Lindsey.  And Lindsey had MaryAnne and Jonathan allied with her. 

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, jabRI said:

In my opinion, he just doesnt' have any empathy and literally cannot fathom how other people perceive him.  It's a limitiation more that a character flaw.  

For me, not having empathy is a very major character flaw.

How old is Jonathan? The man ought to have developed some empathy and not be so totally ignorant by now, I'd think lol.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

For me, not having empathy is a very major character flaw.

How old is Jonathan? The man ought to have developed some empathy and not be so totally ignorant by now, I'd think lol.

He was 29 at the time of filming. So, yeah, plenty of time to have developed empathy and/or learned how to listen to people (even the ladies, Jonathan!).

Of course, there are certainly plenty of people older than him out there in the world who haven't, and probably never will, develop empathy, so he's not alone there.

[peachmangosteen]

If you haven't developed empathy, or learned how to listen, by 29, that's a character flaw imo.

[rr2911]

Ok then.  I'm going to try to be as delicate as I can as I give my opinion on Wednesday's TC.

I'm disappointed in the direction Survivor is going.  They are treading on waters that may prove to lose them many viewers.  This show used to be about outplaying, outwitting and outlasting everyone else.  People from all walks of life. From all ethnic backgrounds.  All types of people coming together.  Working together.  Competing together, all for one goal and that is to be the lone survivor and claim the 1 million dollar prize.  What has happened?  What used to be strategy in voting someone out has somehow become a subconscious decision to eliminate a certain group.  When two individuals walk in TC and arrive at a decision that people that look like them are somehow targeted even though the previous week's vote says otherwise, the game stops being entertaining.  It becomes a platform for people to say how certain groups were systemically eliminated from Survivor every season.  How Survivor mirrors life and being voted out is a reminder of the struggles people like me go through.  So, what about strategy?  What about gameplay?  How do the rest of the contestants vote from now on?  Strategy might be out the door because the ones they want to vote out might be off limits!  Two other things that were disappointing was the host of Survivor allowing this scene to go on and not allowing the other contestant to give their take.  I don't know where the show goes from here.  Will future Survivors follow the same recipe on what started really in season 41?  Maybe it's time for this show to finally come to a close and have it's torch snuffed.  I'll be good with that.

[peachmangosteen]

24 minutes ago, rr2911 said:

Two other things that were disappointing was the host of Survivor allowing this scene to go on and not allowing the other contestant to give their take.

Everyone at the TC got a chance to speak .

[After7Only]

1 hour ago, rr2911 said:

What used to be strategy in voting someone out has somehow become a subconscious decision to eliminate a certain group.  When two individuals walk in TC and arrive at a decision that people that look like them are somehow targeted even though the previous week's vote says otherwise, the game stops being entertaining.  It becomes a platform for people to say how certain groups were systemically eliminated from Survivor every season.  How Survivor mirrors life and being voted out is a reminder of the struggles people like me go through.  So, what about strategy?  What about gameplay?  How do the rest of the contestants vote from now on?  Strategy might be out the door because the ones they want to vote out might be off limits!  Two other things that were disappointing was the host of Survivor allowing this scene to go on and not allowing the other contestant to give their take. 

I think a point that many people miss, is that the things that Mary Ann and Drea said are thoughts/concerns/issues that many of the Black players have every season.   They may not articulate it, but it is  part of their gameplay.   Many Black players adjust their gameplay to account for the conscious or unconscious bias other players may have.    

Just like Jonathan adjusted his gameplay to be less assertive (prior to this ep) so people are less concerned about him being a physical threat.  How other players have hid the fact that they were lawyers, poker players, scientists, etc because they thought it would affect the way their tribemates viewed them.   The difference is all of the people can articulate those thoughts and it be considered OK/and normal.   Whereas for whatever reason, bringing up race triggers people differently.    

Edited May 2, 2022 by After7Only

[Guest]

25 minutes ago, After7Only said:

I think a point that many people miss, is that the things that Mary Ann and Drea said are thoughts/concerns/issues that many of the Black players have every season.   They may not articulate it, but it is  part of their gameplay.   Many Black players adjust their gameplay to account for the conscious or unconscious bias other players may have.

Just like Jonathan adjusted his gameplay to be less assertive (prior to this ep) so people are less concerned about him being a physical threat.  How other players have hid the fact that they were lawyers, poker players, scientists, etc because they thought it would affect the way their tribemates viewed them.  The difference is all of the people can articulate those thoughts and it be considered OK/and normal.   Whereas for whatever reason, bringing up race triggers people differently.

I would humbly suggest that this might be because a discussion about how people of one race are being perceived/treated/targeted tends to imply that people of another race are doing the perceiving/treating/targeting, consciously or not, which leads to defensiveness in a way that occupation and physical ability wouldn't. This defensiveness comes out both in players in the game (Jonathan, for example), and viewers (me, for example, in my initial reactions sometimes, before I take a breath and consider).

I still think it's way too soon to declare that the show is broken because of these developments. From the audience's perspective, the Big Brother Cookout alliance and these two seasons of Survivor have been playing out in sequence over the course of the year, which I think is leading to some of the "here we go again/this is the new normal" reactions. But for the players, each of these seasons has happened in a vacuum, with no knowledge of the others.

So I think we need to wait and see if the "new normal" as a result of the increased diversity in casting is really going to be players being afraid to target others because of race, or if it's just going to be...increased diversity in casting.

[rr2911]

6 hours ago, After7Only said:

I think a point that many people miss, is that the things that Mary Ann and Drea said are thoughts/concerns/issues that many of the Black players have every season.   They may not articulate it, but it is  part of their gameplay.   Many Black players adjust their gameplay to account for the conscious or unconscious bias other players may have.    

Just like Jonathan adjusted his gameplay to be less assertive (prior to this ep) so people are less concerned about him being a physical threat.  How other players have hid the fact that they were lawyers, poker players, scientists, etc because they thought it would affect the way their tribemates viewed them.   The difference is all of the people can articulate those thoughts and it be considered OK/and normal.   Whereas for whatever reason, bringing up race triggers people differently.    

I think we're going to disagree on this, but I don't think hiding that you were a former pro athlete is the same as expressing that being in a group you think is being targeted.  If that athlete is voted out because of their past profession, I don't think there would be any consequences.  Players voting out a player from another background even though it was pure strategy will be called out as targeting that specific group that player belongs to.

[rr2911]

5 hours ago, tracyscott76 said:

I would humbly suggest that this might be because a discussion about how people of one race are being perceived/treated/targeted tends to imply that people of another race are doing the perceiving/treating/targeting, consciously or not, which leads to defensiveness in a way that occupation and physical ability wouldn't. This defensiveness comes out both in players in the game (Jonathan, for example), and viewers (me, for example, in my initial reactions sometimes, before I take a breath and consider).

I still think it's way too soon to declare that the show is broken because of these developments. From the audience's perspective, the Big Brother Cookout alliance and these two seasons of Survivor have been playing out in sequence over the course of the year, which I think is leading to some of the "here we go again/this is the new normal" reactions. But for the players, each of these seasons has happened in a vacuum, with no knowledge of the others.

So I think we need to wait and see if the "new normal" as a result of the increased diversity in casting is really going to be players being afraid to target others because of race, or if it's just going to be...increased diversity in casting.

Yeah, I do agree we do need to see if this is just a 2 year bump on the road or is it the new normal.  CBS has already ordered season 43 and 44, with S43 already filming.    

[nlkm9]

7 hours ago, rr2911 said:

Ok then.  I'm going to try to be as delicate as I can as I give my opinion on Wednesday's TC.

I'm disappointed in the direction Survivor is going.  They are treading on waters that may prove to lose them many viewers.  This show used to be about outplaying, outwitting and outlasting everyone else.  People from all walks of life. From all ethnic backgrounds.  All types of people coming together.  Working together.  Competing together, all for one goal and that is to be the lone survivor and claim the 1 million dollar prize.  What has happened?  What used to be strategy in voting someone out has somehow become a subconscious decision to eliminate a certain group.  When two individuals walk in TC and arrive at a decision that people that look like them are somehow targeted even though the previous week's vote says otherwise, the game stops being entertaining.  It becomes a platform for people to say how certain groups were systemically eliminated from Survivor every season.  How Survivor mirrors life and being voted out is a reminder of the struggles people like me go through.  So, what about strategy?  What about gameplay?  How do the rest of the contestants vote from now on?  Strategy might be out the door because the ones they want to vote out might be off limits!  Two other things that were disappointing was the host of Survivor allowing this scene to go on and not allowing the other contestant to give their take.  I don't know where the show goes from here.  Will future Survivors follow the same recipe on what started really in season 41?  Maybe it's time for this show to finally come to a close and have it's torch snuffed.  I'll be good with that.

I couldnt agree more . Thank you for sharing.

[violet and green]

On 5/2/2022 at 10:37 PM, DEL901 said:

And Jonathan had immunity.

I forgot that!

[Chicago Redshirt]

22 hours ago, rr2911 said:

Ok then.  I'm going to try to be as delicate as I can as I give my opinion on Wednesday's TC.

I'm disappointed in the direction Survivor is going.  They are treading on waters that may prove to lose them many viewers.  This show used to be about outplaying, outwitting and outlasting everyone else.  People from all walks of life. From all ethnic backgrounds.  All types of people coming together.  Working together.  Competing together, all for one goal and that is to be the lone survivor and claim the 1 million dollar prize.  What has happened?  What used to be strategy in voting someone out has somehow become a subconscious decision to eliminate a certain group.  When two individuals walk in TC and arrive at a decision that people that look like them are somehow targeted even though the previous week's vote says otherwise, the game stops being entertaining.  It becomes a platform for people to say how certain groups were systemically eliminated from Survivor every season.  How Survivor mirrors life and being voted out is a reminder of the struggles people like me go through.  So, what about strategy?  What about gameplay?  How do the rest of the contestants vote from now on?  Strategy might be out the door because the ones they want to vote out might be off limits!  Two other things that were disappointing was the host of Survivor allowing this scene to go on and not allowing the other contestant to give their take.  I don't know where the show goes from here.  Will future Survivors follow the same recipe on what started really in season 41?  Maybe it's time for this show to finally come to a close and have it's torch snuffed.  I'll be good with that.

Again, no one on the show suggested that voting Chanelle or Rocksroy was primarily or even partially the result of conscious discrimination.

We saw bits from every one of the five people at that second tribal council. So I'm not sure what's the basis for saying that Jeff didn't allow the other contestant to give their take. (even putting aside that what we saw was an edited version of the whole conversation and that it's a safe presumption that much more was said by each participant than what we have been shown).

In terms of the future, I think it's a little dire to predict that people will be reluctant to vote people off because of their race or any other characteristic when that has literally never happened in Survivor and it does not seem to be happening so far this season. Jonathan obviously does not like any implication that he's a racist, as he made clear. But can anyone honestly say they suspect Jonathan would not vote out a black person for fear of being labeled a racist? Is there an actual White contestant that you can point to and say "That person is going to be so shaken by a racism allegation that they are not going to vote for a person of color under any circumstance?" 

[rr2911]

32 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

 But can anyone honestly say they suspect Jonathan would not vote out a black person for fear of being labeled a racist? Is there an actual White contestant that you can point to and say "That person is going to be so shaken by a racism allegation that they are not going to vote for a person of color under any circumstance?" 

Yes aaaand yes!

I'm on a short leash sort of speak.  So, sorry I can't elaborate more. 

Edited May 3, 2022 by rr2911

[peachmangosteen]

I don't worry about Jonathan because he didn't even have one ounce of understanding of what was being said so lol.

Lindsey seemed to get what Drea and Maryanne were saying so I don't think she's so 'scared' of being seen as racist that she wouldn't vote them out if it made game sense for her.

I can't see any of the others that weren't present at the TC being 'scared' about a racism label either.

It does make me a bit sad that if Maryanne or Drea were to win, it feels like they could get 'They only won because the others were afraid of being called racist' comments. That sucks for them. At least I am sure the jury would assure them that's not true though.

[Chicago Redshirt]

I wish I could have people put money where their mouth is on the fear of racism issue. It's an easy bet that Jonathan and/or Lindsey both get over any fear of being accused of being labeled a racist and write the name down of a person of color between now and the final three. It is basically impossible for them to both go more than one or two votes without voting for a person of color (putting to the side such things as them taking shots in the dark new twists resulting in their votes being stolen or lost etc.)

Edited May 3, 2022 by Chicago Redshirt

[After7Only]

17 hours ago, rr2911 said:

I think we're going to disagree on this, but I don't think hiding that you were a former pro athlete is the same as expressing that being in a group you think is being targeted.  If that athlete is voted out because of their past profession, I don't think there would be any consequences.  Players voting out a player from another background even though it was pure strategy will be called out as targeting that specific group that player belongs to.

Yes we probably will.   Some people have concluded that Mary Ann and Drea have called the votes racist, when that's not what happened.  Lots of posts here that explains why way better than I can.    Neither have said voting out any singular player is a racist act in and of itself.  And there is no reason why any future player should think it would be in the future.  

However, in playing a game there are tons of factors that go into how people connect with each other and develop strategy.  People tend to link with others they have things in common with, and shy away from those who are different.  Which is why the show makes a point of highlighting unlikely friendships like Omar and Mike and Jonathan and one of the physically weaker players (can't remember who) .     Race is one of several factors that come into play in how people connect (others being, gender, sexual orientation, age, class, physical strength etc.)   My hope going forward is that players take note of any unconscious bias they may have regarding race when it comes to the assumptions they make on players as part of thinking through strategy.   That really isn't that big a burden.   

 

[nlkm9]

On 4/29/2022 at 8:47 PM, tracyscott76 said:

I think the short answer to your question is that Drea voted out Chanelle because she wasn't in her alliance, a game move, but with the sudden development of Rocksroy going next, other, more serious factors came into play and she adjusted her thinking in the moment. I don't think Maryanne's voting history applies.

The longer answer:

The definition of "people of color" seems to fluctuate based on circumstance, but it isn't a monolith, and in this instance, I think it's pretty clear that Drea and Maryanne were talking more specifically about African Americans. Prior to this vote Maryanne had voted for Marya, Lydia, and Romeo. I'm not exactly sure how Marya identifies herself, but I wouldn't say she is obviously African American, and Lydia and Romeo definitely are not. Drea voted for Chanelle, yes, but her other votes up to that point were for Zach, Swati, and Lydia. So between the two of them, they've cast one, maybe two votes for other African Americans.

But those statistics are irrelevant to the situation as Drea and Maryanne experienced it at this tribal council. They were going along playing the game just as everyone else was, and then were confronted with the unexpected visual of Chanelle and Rocksroy sitting on the bench together, and the knowledge that they were each planning on voting for another African American at the upcoming vote, which would be three in a row. Drea even said, voting out Chanelle was one thing, but seeing Rocksroy there as well seemed to set up a pattern that she could not bring herself to perpetuate. It was a visceral, emotional reaction, which they acknowledged.

Of course, with the increased diversity in the casting, there are likely to be more instances of several African Americans being voted out in a row, but as the diverse casts become the norm rather than a novel approach, I think the reactions to this will settle down, and players will be more comfortable voting how they please.

Possibly my longest post ever. My apologies.

I still wonder if maryann was terrified when she and jonathon agreed vote out drea and then he floated her name. I really want to see more or maryann, not just the silly girl. 
i must concede that this survivor where people swear on their kids and pretend their relatives died. I think people will calm down, like you said .  

[Guest]

1 hour ago, nlkm9 said:

I still wonder if maryann was terrified when she and jonathon agreed vote out drea and then he floated her name. I really want to see more or maryann, not just the silly girl. 
i must concede that this survivor where people swear on their kids and pretend their relatives died. I think people will calm down, like you said .  

I don't know if I'd say "terrified", but she certainly wasn't thrilled about it 😆

I said last week that people were going to keep leaving Maryanne out at their peril, and the more we see of her beyond the Genki Girl persona, the more I believe this will come to pass. I wanted Maryanne and Tori to team up, now I'm hoping for her and Lindsay to get something going, possibly with Omar, and overthrow the others. As usual, my rooting interests always drift into pulling for the ones who have annoyed me the least, no matter how well they're actually playing the game.

[rr2911]

Of course, I'm not going to reveal the name I read, but there are reports that the name of the winner of S42 was leaked out.  Many blogs have posted the winner.  

I guess it's possible but has anyone heard the same?

 

[DEL901]

56 minutes ago, rr2911 said:

Of course, I'm not going to reveal the name I read, but there are reports that the name of the winner of S42 was leaked out.  Many blogs have posted the winner.  

I guess it's possible but has anyone heard the same?

 

There is a spoiler discussion thread for this type of conversation.  

[rr2911]

7 hours ago, DEL901 said:

There is a spoiler discussion thread for this type of conversation.  

Is it just speculation? 

 

[Nashville]

On 4/30/2022 at 6:53 PM, himela said:

Tradition :P