S06.E11: Saturday in the Park

[Ohmo]

22 hours ago, Quickbeam said:

I never really loved Toby but I feel like the show has given him the bum’s rush. Here’s your hat, what’s your hurry….the actor deserved better. 

I'm legitimately wondering if Fogelman really thinks that we're supposed to be taking Kate's side in this because I truly can't stand her right now.  And she's so freakin' up Toby's ass about Jack, but he's more well adjusted than she is.  And I know the situation was serious, but Jack going to the park on his own shows that he's fearless and quite capable.  Those skills are going to serve him well, and Kate's not doing him any favors by acting like this (much like her father didn't do her any favors in the way he parented her.  Jack's disabled, but he's not made of glass.  He'll be fine.

[Blakeston]

15 hours ago, Gemma Violet said:

Here's what Chris Sullivan (Toby) said about the Big Green Egg:

https://people.com/tv/this-is-us-chris-sullivan-on-kate-and-tobys-explosive-fight/

In a previous flashforward, Jack Jr., now a well-known musician, has a smoker of his own and he said that the Big Green Egg was the symbol of the end of his parents' relationship. We find out how he got the scar on his face — it wasn't due to the smoker. What does he mean when he called it the symbol?

It was the centerpiece of the day. It was the symbol, it was supposed to be something that brought everyone together. There are these symbols in our lives, and we think that there are easy fixes. Or "if we can just go on this vacation." Or "if we can just get rid of this credit card debt." Whatever the thing is that we think is going to fix everything. Toby has this idea that he's constantly chasing this Jack Pearson ideal of grand gestures and unifying the family. It doesn't always work out that way. The Green Egg, although it is not personally responsible as the fine people at Green Egg Smokers are glad to find out, it represents a day when things really began to fall apart.

Sorry, Chris Sullivan, but none of that explains why Jack would think of the smoker as the symbol of his parents' marriage ending.

He might have a vague memory of smelling meat that day - although his memory would probably just be the fall itself, or the chaos that ensued.

But the only reason he'd see the smoker as a symbol of the marriage ending is if someone told him stories about it, and emphasized the smoker.

I could see Toby lamenting the events of the day in front of the kids when they're older (as in, "That's the day I really blew it and my marriage to your mother fell apart."). And I could see Kate complaining to the kids that Toby left the gate open, and that's why Jack has the scar on his head. But I don't see either of them framing the story around the smoker.

The writers just wanted to misdirect us. That's worked well in the past (like the twist in the pilot about the different timelines, and the twist that the adoption worker was Tess in the future.) But I don't see anything that was gained by making us think the smoker was tied to the marriage ending.

[peeayebee]

4 hours ago, Empress1 said:

Kate was like “I told you to call a plumber when it first started leaking” and Toby said they couldn’t afford to call a plumber then. He was unemployed then. That’s why he and his dad patched it up.

Thanks. I completely missed that. BTW, how long ago did Toby (and his dad) do the work?

 

2 hours ago, gonzosgirrl said:

When Toby walked in on Kate and Kevin laughing, he wrongly assumed they were laughing at him, but they were talking about him,  and it was mocking, on Kevin's part, and whiny criticism on Kate's. It's not crazy that he was suspicious. 

I don't think it unreasonable that he was suspicious, but it didn't happen immediately. I just rewatched. And it was really Kevin, not Kate, that f'd things up. When Toby comes in, he says, "What's so funny in here, kids?" He wasn't even trying to start anything, just make conversation. Kate turns to Toby, perhaps about to say that it was the doll, but Kevin doesn't give her a chance, and says, "Oh nothing. I'm just trying to cheer up Kate." THAT'S when Toby rightfully gets suspicious, asking, "Why did Kate need cheering up?" When everyone leaves the kitchen but K & T, Kate thanks him for doing the party, he says sure, then adds, "Seriously, what were you two laughing about when I came in?" So, yeah, because of Kevin's 'cheering up' comment, Toby knew they were talking about him in some way, and he assumed they were laughing at or about him, which they weren't.

 

[Ohmo]

13 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Toby, Beth is telling you that Kate needs to see a future in SF for herself, and you are not listening.  Toby's plan for SF only has a place for Kate and a wife and mother.  

Toby is not in charge of Kate seeing a future in SF. Kate is.  I disagree that Toby's "plan" only includes a place for Kate as a wife and mother.  He's never said that, only that a move to San Francisco is what's needed to keep their family intact because Kate's not seeing that right now.  Her current job does not warrant her staying in LA. Nothing is preventing her from pursuing employment opportunities working with blind children in SF.

I also don't like that she's using her son's disability as cover to do something that SHE doesn't want to do.  If Toby were saying, "Hey Kate, let's move Jack from LA to some small town in the middle of nowhere" then I could see her point.  SF is a major city.  They will have access to services that Jack might need...and Jack will adapt.  He will struggle at times, but he will adapt and succeed.  Families can move cross country with their disabled kids, and the world still spins on its axis.  Been there, done that, and Kate's not even moving that far away.

Toby has listened to Kate.  He's listened to her say "I don't want to" for months, and what he's telling her now is "I don't want to" isn't a good enough reason. Kate is capable of seeing a future in another city. Toby has not stopped any part of that.  She is choosing not to.

[Johnny Dollar]

Kevin looked like his dog died when Madison told him she loved Elijah. He was like “How can that be? I’m a Pearson??!!”

Allowing your kids to do something stupid and dangerous like locking the babysitter in the bathroom and not facing any consequences seems to be a theme with this family.

If the show is trying to turn viewers against Kate, they’re doing a damn good job. Nothing Toby does is ever good enough and nothing is ever her fault. Having her brothers come to “Katie girl’s” rescue was pathetic. If we’re supposed to believe that PMJ is going to put up with this nonsense, they’re going to need a few more episodes to spin that tale.

Someone should’ve given Rebecca credit for figuring out where Jack went.

[karenc3]

5 hours ago, peeayebee said:

Actually, I rewatched the FF scene from the beginning of E3 when we first see Jack with the Big Green Egg. He says to his girlfriend(?), "Every once in a while the smell hits me and takes me right back to that day." Then we see him remembering and hear Toby saying, "Don't get too close, buddy," then Jack crying, then Kate calling out "Jack!" We're led to infer that there was an accident with the BBQ when he was a child, but does Jack actually think there was? He doesn't say anything to contradict the facts that we learned from the latest ep. Is there another FF where he says more about it?

Either that, or I'm wondering if there was a rewrite in the story. Maybe they didn't want to shoot a scene where a child was burned by the bbq?   So they rewrote the story to be Jack fell instead of getting burned by the bbq.  

[MissLucas]

Just remembered that Kate said she was calling the police before Rebecca rushed after Jack. And now I'm trying to figure out the reaction on the other side of that call: 'Wait, your blind son ran off and now your dementia suffering mother is chasing after him?'

Edited April 7, 2022 by MissLucas

[Ohmo]

21 hours ago, bros402 said:

Little Jack saved this episode, he was amazingly adorable.

After this episode, we need a complete episode of Jack in his room with Grandma Rebecca talking to her about whatever he wants. I'm tired of listening to his parents fight, too.

And once again for good measure...Little Jack is adorable.

[peeayebee]

28 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Sorry, Chris Sullivan, but none of that explains why Jack would think of the smoker as the symbol of his parents' marriage ending.

He might have a vague memory of smelling meat that day - although his memory would probably just be the fall itself, or the chaos that ensued.

But the only reason he'd see the smoker as a symbol of the marriage ending is if someone told him stories about it, and emphasized the smoker.

I could see Toby lamenting the events of the day in front of the kids when they're older (as in, "That's the day I really blew it and my marriage to your mother fell apart."). And I could see Kate complaining to the kids that Toby left the gate open, and that's why Jack has the scar on his head. But I don't see either of them framing the story around the smoker.

The writers just wanted to misdirect us. That's worked well in the past (like the twist in the pilot about the different timelines, and the twist that the adoption worker was Tess in the future.) But I don't see anything that was gained by making us think the smoker was tied to the marriage ending.

In the previouslys, Jack's wife -- I thought it was his girlfriend, but in credits she's Lucy Damon -- says about the Big Green Egg, "It's like the literal symbol of the day your mom and dad's marriage blew up." Unless there's a FF that shows Jack saying it's a symbol, I think only Lucy said it. What I imagine is that he told her about the big fight his parents had that day, a fight that signaled the end of their marriage. And also on that day, his dad had this particular smoker/BBQ, and BBQ meat smells trigger the memory of that horrible day. 

I do agree that the writers thought it was a fun little misdirect to make us think that Jack, thru Toby's negligence, had injured himself on the BGE. It was just another instance of causing us to think something was going to happen, when a completely different thing happened. 

Edited April 7, 2022 by peeayebee

[PepSinger]

This show.

Are the writers actively trying to make the audience hate Kate?  Are they trying to highlight how sibling relationships can sometimes be toxic? I’m trying to understand the the writers intent here.

When this show started, I actively disliked Kate because of how she treated Rebecca. Then, whenever they had that girls weekend episode, my opinion started to change. I started to like Kate. Now? I HATE her. I actively *despise* her. I LOATHE her.

Yes, Toby should’ve made sure the gate was locked. However, why in the fuck were they in such a hurry to move the mattress?! No one was dying. There was plenty of time for Toby to place Jack in his room, calmly lock the gate, and then go to help. Kate was acting as if the fucking house was on fire. It is a mattress. You can buy a new one. Completely ridiculous.

I also do not understand teaching a two year old how to open a door. I have never known a parent to show their child how to open a door. Hell, most parents miss the baby stage because once they start crawling and walking, it’s game time. I was fully on Toby side in thinking it was ludicrous for Kate to teach a child, much less a BLIND child, how to open a door. If you’re gonna do that, then you need a lock on the door that is out of reach.

When Kate said, “Not here,” I involuntary yelled, “oh fuck you” at my laptop. Toby showed her so much Grace when she forgot to lock the front door, and for her to act as if Toby set him in the middle of an intersection instead of forgetting to lock a baby gate was  disgusting. I’m sure the neighbors appreciated the screaming. 

However the moment that was beyond the pale was when Kate said “I am the only parent they have.” I don’t care if it was said in a heated moment. She. Said. It. Kate. Toby is reason your children have a roof over their  (and your) heads. Toby is the reason you and your children have health insurance. Toby is the reason that you are able to send Jack to a good school. Toby is the reason that you are able to afford flying cross country at a moment’s notice. Toby is the reason that you all are able to eat. Part of being a parent is about taking care of your kids every day — bathing, washing clothes, changing diapers, playing with them, etc — but there’s this HUGE OTHER FUCKING PART of being a parent that involves putting food on the table, making sure your kids are able to see health care providers, and putting roof over their heads! It’s very hard to bathe, cloth, and feed children when you have no money. I totally agreed with Toby when he asked does she even want him LA. She doesn’t want him there. She wants him to continue to subsidize her lifestyle while she can do whatever she wants with their children. Her entitlement and selfishness leaves me breathless and furious. 

I wish my future husband would have a well-paying job doing what he loves and offer to buy us a fantastic multi-million dollar home in q great city. Kate is the only human being on the planet who would be pissed about someone offering to buy them and their children a home with an in-law suite. The horror! 

Toby may have had some trouble coming around to Jack’s blindness, BUT HE CAME AROUND TO IT. He came around to it before Jack would even remember how Toby felt about it, so Kate throwing that in his face also disgusted me.

Kate makes no sacrifices for anything. Being blind isn’t some sort of circumstance that happens to 1 out of every one billion people. There are blind people everywhere! Resources everywhere! Kate, for reasons that I cannot understand, thinks that blind people and resources don’t exist in San Francisco. Someone, MAKE IT MAKE SENSE. Kate should want to move to SF because apparently it’s an every day occurrence in LA to see toddlers walking down the sidewalk and crossing streets without an adult and *no one* bat an eye. LA is wicked harsh.

Kevin butting into their argument was ridiculous. I rarely say this about Kevin, but he really needed to fuck off. You wanna stand there and listen to your sister and her husband argue? FINE. However, unless he physically hurts her, YOU DO NOT INTERVENE. 

I want Toby and Kate to get a divorce because I believe Toby deserves better. 

I cannot even fully address the absurdity of finding it charming that your kids locked their babysitter in the bathroom. What. If they were going for some kind of charming parallel there at the end, then they REALLY missed the mark.

Edited April 7, 2022 by PepSinger

[maggiemae]

Little Jack is incredible. Independent and motivated and smart.

Little kids get out of their cribs...even over the door gate was left unlatched he could have scaled it.  Whatever - I love who he became - an independent man with a beloved woman that adores him.

And I doubt it was all due to St Kate.

Plus PBM said last year or so that he did not like kids. Who would marry one that said that when you have 2? Young ones, to boot.

[Shermie]

5 hours ago, cardigirl said:

5 hours ago, debbie311 said:

I have two friends who don't even put gas in their own cars.  "That's a husband's job." One says she "doesn't know how." Here in CA where I live, all gas stations are self-service.  I don't know what they will do if they ever find themselves without a husband.

It's fine, I guess, if that's what works for them,

I disagree. Those women are going to big dependent pains in the ass to their children, friends, neighbours, etc. when they’re widowed (statistically, they will be). 

Toby has made some mistakes, but in the Kate v Toby divorce, I’m 75% Toby, 25% Kate. Losing track of Jack would be terrifying, to be sure, but it happened after a series of small incidents that were all preventable. 

Kate should have called the plumber about the leak. If Toby called, he’d have to check with Kate to set up a good time for the plumber to come (because you know Kate would bitch and moan that Toby picked a time that he should have known didn’t work for her). If the leak had been properly fixed (and it should have been even if they thought they were moving, hello resale?), then they wouldn’t have been so distracted, and Jack wouldn’t have wandered off.

Since the ep description mentioned Rebecca and Miguel’s anniversary, I was really hoping it would focus on how they got together.

[Shermie]

37 minutes ago, peeayebee said:

I do agree that the writers thought it was a fun little misdirect to make us think that Jack, thru Toby's negligence, had injured himself on the BGE. It was just another instance of causing us to think something was going to happen, when a completely different thing happened. 

Or maybe the Big Green Egg people saw what happened with Peleton on Sex and the City and said, “Nuh-uh”.

[KaveDweller]

27 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I also do not understand teaching a two year old how to open a door. I have never known a parent to show their child how to open a door. Hell, most parents miss the baby stage because once they start crawling and walking, it’s game time. I was fully on Toby side in thinking it was ludicrous for Kate to teach a child, much less a BLIND child, how to open a door. If you’re gonna do that, then you need a lock on the door that is out of reach.

I sort of get this. You wouldn't teach a sighted kid to open a door, because the kid will watch the adults in their life open doors and figure out how to do it. But Jack is blind and can't do that. So someone has to teach him how to do simple stuff like open doors. He might be a little young, but Kate's trying to make him independent and she seems to be doing a good job. 

But they clearly should keep a lock on the door. I don't think Kate showed him how to unlock the door. But she made a mistake because of the chaos with the leak. Toby made a mistake too with the gate latch. It happens. Jack was fine. If they didn't already resent each other they probably would not have cared about a missed latch or a unlocked door.

[PepSinger]

Just now, Shermie said:

Or maybe the Big Green Egg people saw what happened with Peleton on Sex and the City and said, “Nuh-uh”.

To be honest, I kinda think that’s exactly what happened.

[Crs97]

I had a different take on the Beth-Toby conversation.  Beth was talking about how Philadelphia worked out for her personally, but I thought she ended up  agreeing with Toby that a major factor for her move was to protect her marriage.

[peeayebee]

As much as I was chewing my nails watching Jack make his way to the park, I was also impressed with how well Kate had taught him. 

As many have said, Toby and Kate have many problems within their marriage. One thing I hope the show brings up before the end is that Kate -- as I see it -- resents Toby for getting his life together. He got in shape. He got a great job. He works with people who seem to really like him as a person, not just a coworker. Her anger toward him for so many things is redirected anger at herself for not being more proactive. She feels left behind.  

[hoosiergirl]

Idk…I have 3 kids, and granted none are blind, but somehow we have instilled in them to never leave the house (we live in an urban area) without an adult. I did not buy that a 2 year old would think “I want to go where mom and dad are happy” and then take it upon himself to put on the boots and go. I think an actual 2 year old would have just whined about wanting to go to the park. Or thrown a tantrum. 

I know we were supposed to be moved by the Big Three standing together against Toby but I was not. Kate and Toby made vows to each other. Love is an action. They need to choose each other but sadly they will not. I feel like they’re doing Toby dirty and I’m annoyed that Kate is going to get remarried and get a happy ending she doesn’t deserve. 

[qtpye]

1 hour ago, peeayebee said:

In the previouslys, Jack's wife -- I thought it was his girlfriend, but in credits she's Lucy Damon -- says about the Big Green Egg, "It's like the literal symbol of the day your mom and dad's marriage blew up." Unless there's a FF that shows Jack saying it's a symbol, I think only Lucy said it. What I imagine is that he told her about the big fight his parents had that day, a fight that signaled the end of their marriage. And also on that day, his dad had this particular smoker/BBQ, and BBQ meat smells trigger the memory of that horrible day. 

I do agree that the writers thought it was a fun little misdirect to make us think that Jack, thru Toby's negligence, had injured himself on the BGE. It was just another instance of causing us to think something was going to happen, when a completely different thing happened. 

 

59 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Or maybe the Big Green Egg people saw what happened with Peleton on Sex and the City and said, “Nuh-uh”.

Not to mention what this show did to crock pots.

I kid you not, the day after the episode where Jack dies due to a crockpot, they had them 50 percent off at my grocery store and a Big Green Egg is a way bigger investment than a measly crockpot.

[pennben]

Periodic reminder that Toby taking job in SF was supposed to be temporary. Toby lied by omission that he was offered job back in LA. Said it was beneath him & salary cut when busted. Refused to disclose proposed salary. Later admitted not taking job wasn’t about money. Unilaterally changed plan that only way to save marriage was for Kate to move to SF. That’s just this season for things he’s done  

Mostly doing this for giggles, but sometimes I feel like facts we have actually been shown get rejected in interpreting all things in Toby’s favor while wanting to push all blame to Kate. 

Lord knows she’s got a long list of her own, but those feel well covered. 

[CrystalBlue]

3 minutes ago, qtpye said:

 

Not to mention what this show did to crock pots.

I kid you not, the day after the episode where Jack dies due to a crockpot, they had them 50 percent off at my grocery store and a Big Green Egg is a way bigger investment than a measly crockpot.

Yeah, I remember when Rival brand had to rehab their reputation because of the Crock Pot episode.

Speaking of digging up the past (and yes I have an original burnt orange color Rival brand Crock Pot from the 70s in my kitchen cupboard), what about ...

Toby's stint as a SAHD when he was looking for a new job?  Kate really had the bloody nerve to say SHE was the Only Parent.  And Toby was honest with her and said words to the effect of Babe, I've got to get out there working again in my field because I'm not cut out to be a SAHD.  And we really need the money.

And what self-assured man is going to gladly sit by while his brother-in-law supports his family for him?

[ProudMary]

Random thoughts:

I think the bright, talented, young actor who plays Jack Damon misspoke when he said "apples and pants" and Chris Sullivan just rolled with it. Who knows how many takes they might have already done? My bet is that Toby used fruit flavored wood chips while smoking the meat. Perhaps "apples and pears" might have been the line he was supposed to say?

Several people commented that Kevin shouldn't have been in Madison's bedroom, but Kevin saw Elijah's car parked outside and was going to introduce Randall to Elijah. As Madison was walking out the door to take the twins to music class, Kevin says to her, "Elijah's where?" and Madison points and says, "In my bedroom." 

Am I the only viewer who wondered how Rebecca knew and remembered the route to the park? From her conversation with Jack about how his rain boots were park attire, it didn't seem as if Rebecca had been there with him before. If she had been, the writers should have given some indication that was the case.

[bros402]

13 hours ago, hookedontv said:

I loved "House" and don't remember this at all! Maybe it's more common than I thought....

The intern was actually CTB - Cutthroat Bitch - that was House's nickname for her due to how cutthroat she was

12 hours ago, Rootbeer said:

Which is why they should have alarms on the doors to the outside, or even one on Jack's bedroom door; so he cannot leave the house on his own.  While all kids learn to open doors eventually, their mothers don't usually teach them how to do it.  If Kate wanted Jack to know how to open doors, she should've done something to make sure he couldn't use that knowledge to get out of the house unsupervised.  

Take a look on Amazon, there are a whole host of easy to install door alarms for use with toddlers, etc that cost under 20 bucks.  4 door knob covers cost under 10 bucks.  I have a dog who figured out how to open a patio door, I know all about dog proofing which, it turns out, is nearly the same as childproofing.

Yup - they should have alarms all over. I know he isn't in an actual bed yet, but I sure hope they have something on the edge of his bed just in case. Or maybe they'll put a bed rail - I had one of those for years because I have seizures and my parents didn't want me to slam on the floor if I had one in the middle of the night.

[pennben]

46 minutes ago, CrystalBlue said:

And what self-assured man is going to gladly sit by while his brother-in-law supports his family for him?

Trick question. Only a self-assured man would accept temporary assistance from a brother-in-law who has funny money levels of money. 

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, PepSinger said:

To be honest, I kinda think that’s exactly what happened.

"Lose the plot or lose the egg.  Our attorneys will be in contact."

[circumvent]

That kid is just too cute. Good directing because it looks like his lines were very unrehearsed, they seemed to come naturally to him. A nice way to show how blind kids learn how to navigate different spaces, find what they need. 

As for the fight between Toby and Kate, I think it is still part of the larger picture. There is not one person to blame. It is always a lack of communication, it is always something small, leading to something big. That's how adults behave, sometimes like children. Trying to referee their relationship is just getting into a tangle of opinions that will remain unchanged at the end. 

The writers do a good job making the connections on how the siblings are close, how they show up for each other, even if some of us find it outrageous, silly, not fair, or whatever. The connection was the theme, and thy did that well. 

I still like that the characters' relationship - Toby and Kate - is full of as close to reality as possible on a TV show, and the reactions are how adults would react (or could react, so also close to reality) - whose fault the whole thing is is irrelevant to the story

[debraran]

8 hours ago, Ohmo said:

I'm legitimately wondering if Fogelman really thinks that we're supposed to be taking Kate's side in this because I truly can't stand her right now.  And she's so freakin' up Toby's ass about Jack, but he's more well adjusted than she is.  And I know the situation was serious, but Jack going to the park on his own shows that he's fearless and quite capable.  Those skills are going to serve him well, and Kate's not doing him any favors by acting like this (much like her father didn't do her any favors in the way he parented her.  Jack's disabled, but he's not made of glass.  He'll be fine.

Chrissy said we will like Philip and see how they slowly come together. (I doubt it) But if they did it in season 3/4 with divorce and Kate was independent and then met Philip, I'd be more on board. This FF on divorce, emotional support, then "I love you!" is a bit soap opera-like and I could have skipped it. The wedding is shown in show after next so do they go forward and still show present in other scenes? Time will tell but too soon for the progression Kate talked about unless she meant it was assumed these things happened. Chrissy didn't like the turn either she said, she liked her costar but goes with the flow.

I also think shaming Toby for not feeling 100% onboard with Jack's disability and looking for "cures" is not unusual and not to be shamed. I know with deafness or almost deafness, parents look into implants and whether they should or not, looking into surgery if he read something about it is not a crime. There are articles and support groups and many poems that tell of a parents dream of a child being altered a bit and their acceptance and love. He loves his son, that was a cheap shot. Of course counseling is never mentioned in this show because it would have to fail or make the show boring? Randall I assume still talks to someone and I know would be open to his children seeing one.

I hope more characters are shown in Katoby next week because another show of just Kate and Toby is a bit much.  I miss Nicky and Miguel's humor and want to see Sophie connect with Kevin and see how that dynamic goes but have to wait.

4 hours ago, bros402 said:

The intern was actually CTB - Cutthroat Bitch - that was House's nickname for her due to how cutthroat she was

Yup - they should have alarms all over. I know he isn't in an actual bed yet, but I sure hope they have something on the edge of his bed just in case. Or maybe they'll put a bed rail - I had one of those for years because I have seizures and my parents didn't want me to slam on the floor if I had one in the middle of the night.

Parents with children who can see also have alarms on doors, bells etc and cameras. With a child who is blind, I am surprised she didn't have inexpensive or more expensive (from Kevin) for her own peace of mind. My friend had something on the floor that made a noise, worked for dog or child getting too close.

I found a rail that was about a foot high to put on my son's bed at Jack's age since he moved a lot and had a higher bed than some. But I guess this is TV and common sense things don't write scripts.

Edited April 7, 2022 by debraran

[ams1001]

6 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Several people commented that Kevin shouldn't have been in Madison's bedroom, but Kevin saw Elijah's car parked outside and was going to introduce Randall to Elijah. As Madison was walking out the door to take the twins to music class, Kevin says to her, "Elijah's where?" and Madison points and says, "In my bedroom." 

Yeah, Kevin didn't just decide to go into the bedroom on his own. The weird part was Madison telling him to, instead of calling for Elijah to come out like normal people would. (But then Kevin wouldn't catch him looking like he was doing something shady.)

[Johnny Dollar]

Sorry @PepSinger but the system only let me give your post one like. You couldn’t have said it better. Unless they’re setting this up for Kate to get her comeuppance, the show really overestimated her appeal. 

[mostlylurking]

Ok so the good thing about this Kate/Toby relationship breakdown is that to me both sides do have valid points. I don’t think either one is an outright villain, and I think that’s generally true to life. What I don’t like is that the show is indeed vilifying Toby to the point where this dude can’t do anything right.

So the ceiling thing is annoying but Toby and his dad had fixed it (wasn’t his dad a plumber or something?) so why would they think to call a plumber after the fact?  Obviously it’s still an issue so instead of freaking out just get it fixed and insurance will probably pay for most/some of it anyway. 

Little Jack getting out…my heart was in my throat. Toby should have locked the gate. However I personally don’t think Kate should have taught Jack to unlock and open the door. In fact I have taught my four year old the exact opposite…if she’s in her room and there’s an emergency (fire alarm, tornado sirens) she should stay where she is and someone safe will come to her. I was told by a firefighter this is best so if shit goes down you know where your kid is and don’t have to waste time looking for them all over the house or even worse outside.  Even still, I sobbed when Rebecca found him. I am so glad it was her. She is not useless. 

I also didn’t like Randall and Kevin getting involved in the marital fight. While Toby and Kate probably should have picked spot more private that their front yard, it wasn’t their place. It’s not like Toby was getting physical with Kate or shouting obscenities at her; they were arguing.

Toby just can’t win this season. Thank god Little Jack didn’t get burned on the grill, Toby would probably be in jail for child abuse or something. I personally like this version of Toby better than the depressed, sad sack he used to be. He has improved himself, he is providing for his family, and to me it still looks like he’s very involved with his children as much as he can. 

I’m also pissed the it was Rebecca and Miguel’s anniversary and we still get flashbacks of Rebecca and Jack’s anniversary. Way to hold on to that paycheck, Milo. I wanted a Bec/Migs flashback. 

Other good things-little Jack is so cute and such a natural. Usually child actors that age just kind of sit there, but he is so engaged with everyone. Adorbs. Beth was also on point, she has so many good one liners. Aside from the cringey call to her former instructor she’s been awesome this season.  

Edited April 7, 2022 by mostlylurking

[Empress1]

35 minutes ago, mostlylurking said:

Beth was also on point, she has so many good one liners.

Kate: “I can’t believe you guys came all this way for a barbecue!”

Beth: “Me neither.”

I love her. Also her shoulder shimmy when she handed Toby (“Toblerone”) a drink and said she didn’t know what was in it but it was getting the job done.

I remember in a previous episode she told Randall that she, Toby and Miguel had a group text that was a lot of “how to deal with your codependent-ass family” (I’m paraphrasing) and I wonder if they’ve continued it, particularly in light of that fight.

3 hours ago, debraran said:

I also think shaming Toby for not feeling 100% onboard with Jack's disability and looking for "cures" is not unusual and not to be shamed.

Agree. I think every parent wants their kids’ lives to be as easy as possible. He looked into ways to do that. It’s not like he GOT Little Jack surgery that did t work. He looked into it and then dropped it. Also visually impaired adults have surgery to correct their vision all the time. LASIK is popular. I’m low-key considering it myself.

10 hours ago, PepSinger said:

However the moment that was beyond the pale was when Kate said “I am the only parent they have.” I don’t care if it was said in a heated moment. She. Said. It. Kate. Toby is reason your children have a roof over their  (and your) heads. Toby is the reason you and your children have health insurance. Toby is the reason that you are able to send Jack to a good school. Toby is the reason that you are able to afford flying cross country at a moment’s notice. Toby is the reason that you all are able to eat. Part of being a parent is about taking care of your kids every day — bathing, washing clothes, changing diapers, playing with them, etc — but there’s this HUGE OTHER FUCKING PART of being a parent that involves putting food on the table, making sure your kids are able to see health care providers, and putting roof over their heads! It’s very hard to bathe, cloth, and feed children when you have no money.

Yeah, honestly, that’s unforgivable and I’d probably call a lawyer (and emphasize joint custody). And it’s not like Toby is a distant “I only provide and leave out the emotional stuff” parent. Little Jack is clearly bonded to him. (Hailey may be too, but she’s a non-factor at this point.) That’s one of those “things you can’t take back that changes everything” comments.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Empress1

[ams1001]

5 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

Agree. I think every parent wants their kids’ lives to be as easy as possible. He looked into ways to do that. It’s not like he GOT Little Jack surgery that did t work. He looked into it and then dropped it. 

She criticized him for googling stuff ("that doesn't even work"). What parent these days wouldn't at least google their kid's condition to find as much information as they can? How do you even know if something might or might not work if you don't look for information?

[peeayebee]

9 hours ago, hoosiergirl said:

Idk…I have 3 kids, and granted none are blind, but somehow we have instilled in them to never leave the house (we live in an urban area) without an adult. I did not buy that a 2 year old would think “I want to go where mom and dad are happy” and then take it upon himself to put on the boots and go. I think an actual 2 year old would have just whined about wanting to go to the park. Or thrown a tantrum. 

There was a scene with Jack in his high chair telling Kate he wanted to go to the park.

I have no problem with Jack going on his own. It was a weekly routine. Kate taught him how to get to the park, basically how to get there on his own. No, she didn't mean it that way, but she was teaching him independence and self-confidence.

 

8 hours ago, ProudMary said:

Am I the only viewer who wondered how Rebecca knew and remembered the route to the park? From her conversation with Jack about how his rain boots were park attire, it didn't seem as if Rebecca had been there with him before. If she had been, the writers should have given some indication that was the case.

I didn't wonder about that, but I'll just hand-wave it by saying Rebecca certainly has visited the house many times and most probably went to the park with them. Maybe Kate's little song and reminders with Jack actually helped Rebecca, too. I was going to say that in a jokey way, but that sort of thing might be helpful for someone having memory issues.

[Empress1]

6 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

She criticized him for googling stuff ("that doesn't even work"). What parent these days wouldn't at least google their kid's condition to find as much information as they can? How do you even know if something might or might not work if you don't look for information?

Right - and surgeries may have come up just in the course of searching for general info. When my dad got his diagnosis I read the stuff he got from the hospital and Googled the disease, and treatment options came up. I’ve done that for other members of my family. Randall did the same for Rebecca. I know his approach was problematic but my point is, when someone you love is facing disability and/or illness, you look into it to see … anything, really. How to manage it, how to treat it, prognoses, etc.It’s not unusual or harmful for Toby to have done that.

[CountryGirl]

I rewatched the scene with the fight and it wasn't like Kevin and Randall instantly jumped out of the car and raced up to them. Actually, Kevin and Randall did stay out of it initially, hanging back and saying nothing for several moments.

I do not think Toby was going to get physical with her, but he was within a foot of her, with his finger a few inches from her face, shouting at her. 

He steps in even closer, his yelling getting louder a moment later. I would not call this "not all that close."


I cannot imagine a scenario in the world where I, as Kate's sibling, would have shrugged and walked on by, at that particular moment.

It wasn't until he moved closer and kept putting his finger in her face (so again, they did not immediately step in) that Kevin and Randall spoke up. I think Randall stepped in because the look on disgust and anger on Toby's face when Kevin spoke up spoke volumes and Toby absolutely took several steps towards Kevin, so I could have seen it getting physical with Kevin, whom Toby clearly blames for some of the problems in his marriage.  

That having said, once they said something to help defuse, Kevin and Randall should have walked away and Toby should have continued the discussion (talking more calmly) with Kate. They absolutely need to get everything out on the table to even begin to try to solve the problems between them. 

[Empress1]

11 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I think Randall stepped in because the look on disgust and anger on Toby's face when Kevin spoke up spoke volumes and Toby absolutely took several steps towards Kevin, so I could have seen it getting physical with Kevin, whom Toby clearly blames for some of the problems in his marriage.  

Yes - I think Randall stepped in to prevent things from getting physical between Toby and Kevin. He physically got between Kevin and Toby.

[Rootbeer]

15 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I rewatched the scene with the fight and it wasn't like Kevin and Randall instantly jumped out of the car and raced up to them. Actually, Kevin and Randall did stay out of it initially, hanging back and saying nothing for several moments.

I do not think Toby was going to get physical with her, but he was within a foot of her, with his finger a few inches from her face, shouting at her. 

He steps in even closer, his yelling getting louder a moment later. I would not call this "not all that close."


I cannot imagine a scenario in the world where I, as Kate's sibling, would have shrugged and walked on by, at that particular moment.

It wasn't until he moved closer and kept putting his finger in her face (so again, they did not immediately step in) that Kevin and Randall spoke up. I think Randall stepped in because the look on disgust and anger on Toby's face when Kevin spoke up spoke volumes and Toby absolutely took several steps towards Kevin, so I could have seen it getting physical with Kevin, whom Toby clearly blames for some of the problems in his marriage.  

That having said, once they said something to help defuse, Kevin and Randall should have walked away and Toby should have continued the discussion (talking more calmly) with Kate. They absolutely need to get everything out on the table to even begin to try to solve the problems between them. 

Neither Kevin nor Randall needed to step up and stand next to Kate as though she needed protection from her husband.  Yes, both Toby and Kate were escalating, things were getting hotter.  There is no reason why either Randall or Kevin couldn't have called out just to remind them that they were outdoors and the neighbors could hear, or otherwise defuse the situation without turning it into an Us vs Them confrontation. 

Toby was close to Kate, he was shaking his finger; she was not backing away or showing any fear.  There was absolutely no indication that either one of them was going to get physical, nor any history that they ever had.  If Kate needed help, she knew that her mother, her brothers and her mother's husband were nearby.  Toby knew it too.

It was Kevin stepping in looking like he was fixing for a fight, interfering in their marriage for the umpteenth time that was the potential breaking point.  I do agree that Randall mainly stepped up to keep Kevin and Toby apart.

Edited April 7, 2022 by Rootbeer

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, Rootbeer said:

Neither Kevin nor Randall needed to step up and stand next to Kate as though she needed protection from her husband.  Yes, both Toby and Kate were escalating, things were getting hotter.  There is no reason why either Randall or Kevin couldn't have called out just to remind them that they were outdoors and the neighbors could hear, or otherwise defuse the situation without turning it into an Us vs Them confrontation. 

Toby was close to Kate, he was shaking his finger; she was not backing away or showing any fear.  There was absolutely no indication that either one of them was going to get physical, nor any history that they ever had.  If Kate needed help, she knew that her mother, her brothers and her mother's husband were nearby.  Toby knew it too.

We will have to agree to disagree on this one. The mere presence of Kevin and Randall approaching and standing there for several moments didn't serve to de-escalate. I am not going to make assumptions about Kate's reaction or lack thereof given the freeze or fawn psychological responses, in addition to the more commonly-known fight or flight. 

All that said, I do not think Toby would have actually gotten physical with her but no one has a history of getting physical...until they do. While there can be escalating verbal arguments, things thrown etc before there is physical violence, that isn't always the case My parents were married for well over two years, with little history of so much as a minor disagreement before my father took a fist to her one night. 

[MissLucas]

If you feel you must step into an argument between a sibling and their partner do it with a cool head and the intent to de-escalate. Both didn't apply to Kevin in that situation. In fact he was like a match thrown into a gunpowder factory. 

(And be prepared that it won't work since you'll be always perceived as partial - that's why you shouldn't do it in the first place.)

[Shermie]

10 hours ago, hoosiergirl said:

Idk…I have 3 kids, and granted none are blind, but somehow we have instilled in them to never leave the house (we live in an urban area) without an adult. I did not buy that a 2 year old would think “I want to go where mom and dad are happy” and then take it upon himself to put on the boots and go. I think an actual 2 year old would have just whined about wanting to go to the park. Or thrown a tantrum. 

Maybe a child 4 or older can be reasoned with (don’t go to the park by yourself), but toddlers are gonna toddle. One of my kids was a constant wanderer at that age, no matter what we said to her. The next kid stayed glued to my side by his choice. Different kids, different personalities.

When the brothers saw Kate and Toby fighting, the natural thing to do, since they had to walk by them, was say, “Everything okay here?” Maybe directing that at Kate. And then leave them to sort out their own marriage. 

Beth is the bomb. I love how she knows the Pearsons so well at this point. She just goes along to their things and tolerates their Peason-ness. Too bad she’s going to lose Toby as her in-law ally. Nobody understands the crazy of necessary family tolerance better than a fellow in-law. 

I felt bad that the nice party, with all the food and decorations and whatnot (not to mention the actual reason for the celebration), was just wasted. But that’s such a tv thing. Spend hundreds of dollars on food and drinks and decor, and have family spend hundreds to fly out, and then throw it all in the trash, figuratively and literally.

[CountryGirl]

8 minutes ago, Shermie said:

I felt bad that the nice party, with all the food and decorations and whatnot (not to mention the actual reason for the celebration), was just wasted. But that’s such a tv thing. Spend hundreds of dollars on food and drinks and decor, and have family spend hundreds to fly out, and then throw it all in the trash, figuratively and literally.

I felt the same way and I'm still annoyed that Rebecca and Miguel's first milestone anniversary party (and possibly their last milestone as I don't know that they'll hit 20 years, but just speculating here) was a bust. And even though I normally love still seeing Jack Sr, Rebecca, young Big 3 and their flashbacks, I was annoyed that their anniversary was inserted into this one. 

Although hopefully Migs and Rebecca got to enjoy themselves when they fled the house of yelling and leaky ceilings while Jack definitely did not get that much enjoyment with all the kids in the bed and a likely puking/hungover Rebecca.

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, Empress1 said:

Yeah, honestly, that’s unforgivable and I’d probably call a lawyer (and emphasize joint custody). And it’s not like Toby is a distant “I only provide and leave out the emotional stuff” parent. Little Jack is clearly bonded to him. (Hailey may be too, but she’s a non-factor at this point.) That’s one of those “things you can’t take back that changes everything” comments.

You and I must be sharing a brain because I was about to type that before I realized my post was a million characters long. 

Kate: I am the only parent here. 
Me: Well, since you’re the only parent, how about I make that official? I’ll be contacting a divorce attorney tomorrow, and I’ll be asking for joint custody. I hope you enjoy being a single parent. Enjoy LA! *walks away*

[Ohiopirate02]

10 minutes ago, Shermie said:

Beth is the bomb. I love how she knows the Pearsons so well at this point. She just goes along to their things and tolerates their Peason-ness. Too bad she’s going to lose Toby as her in-law ally. Nobody understands the crazy of necessary family tolerance better than a fellow in-law. 

 

I never thought Toby was Beth's in-law ally.  That honor belongs to Miguel, someone else who loves the Pearsons even though they are a co-dependent mess.  To me, Toby was the one who insisted on inserting himself into the Pearson Express instead of sitting back and going along on the ride.  Hopefully Philip will mesh better with the Pearsons as a whole.

[CountryGirl]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I never thought Toby was Beth's in-law ally.  That honor belongs to Miguel, someone else who loves the Pearsons even though they are a co-dependent mess.  To me, Toby was the one who insisted on inserting himself into the Pearson Express instead of sitting back and going along on the ride.  Hopefully Philip will mesh better with the Pearsons as a whole.

Philip will probably hunt up Beth and have drinks with her elsewhere while the Pearsons Pearson.

[Boo Boo]

Funny for me, I don't think Kate nor Toby are the bad guys.  I feel like they are doing a really good job of showing two people that love each other but have grown separately not together.  The first evidence of this was when Toby decided to get healthy and put all of his energy into that while Kate did not.  I'm not sure that a lot of marriages could survive when someone takes control of their physical health and another doesn't.  Then you have a special needs child, two differing views on how to raise a special needs child, then long distance and voila, marriage is on very shaky ground.

I am annoyed that several storylines remaining are way too rushed.  I would have rather them say "we decided to extend the season out to give the storylines time versus rushing to meet an arbitrary end date."

 

Edited April 7, 2022 by Boo Boo

[CountryGirl]

Just now, Boo Boo said:

Funny for me, I don't think Kate nor Toby are the bad guys.  I feel like they are doing a really good job of showing two people that love each other but have grown separately not together.  The first evidence of this was when Toby decided to get healthy and put all of his energy into that while Kate did not.  I'm not sure that a lot of marriages could survive when someone takes control of their physical health and another doesn't.  Then you have a special needs child, two differing views on how to raise a special needs child, then long distance and voila, marriage is on very shaky ground.

 

I really agree with this post. The demise of their marriage has felt very organic and "real" to me vs some  inexplicable, never saw this coming, milked for drama plot device.

Their fights have been so real that it has made it feel uncomfortable for me to watch, in the sense that I feel like I'm eavesdropping on them. 

[Boo Boo]

43 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

I really agree with this post. The demise of their marriage has felt very organic and "real" to me vs some  inexplicable, never saw this coming, milked for drama plot device.

Their fights have been so real that it has made it feel uncomfortable for me to watch, in the sense that I feel like I'm eavesdropping on them. 

Agreed on eavesdropping.

I even think some of the words said are very much like a marriage argument where boiling point is reached and then the word choices aren't great. 

[mostlylurking]

2 hours ago, peeayebee said:

I did not buy that a 2 year old would think “I want to go where mom and dad are happy” and then take it upon himself to put on the boots and go.

Yeah, I don’t know that a two year old would be able to have such a complete thought no matter how precocious they were.  My heat did break a tiny bit when Kate said that’s the reason he went to the park.  As a parent, that’s just gotta rip your heart out.

[mostlylurking]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

The demise of their marriage has felt very organic and "real" to me vs some  inexplicable, never saw this coming, milked for drama plot device.

Totally agree.  Geographic gymnastics aside, one thing I am going to miss about this show is it’s realness. There have been many instances where I have truly been like yep, I get this.  It’s organic.  Another fight that was very real was Rebecca and Jack when they were arguing about her singing career/his drinking and then she kicked him out.  Sometimes emotions are out of control, and that’s real life.

[Kath94]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:22 PM, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Yes, smell would be very evocative to him.  Whenever he smells apples and pants together, he probably unconsciously touches his scar.

Anybody think "Jackie" ad libbed that line?  :D