S01.E08: Tucked Up in Newport

[dmc]

19 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

it would be really bad writing if they did.

I think some of their writing has been bad

[Ceindreadh]

18 hours ago, Bulldog said:

I assume that the newspapers would have covered George's hearing.  I can't imagine Bertha being too pleased if a story is published stating that they actually did -- gasp! -- look for ways to cut costs when building their house. 

 

It wasn't the house that they cut costs on, it was George's office.  He said that when he wanted to do up the office he went with the people who had worked on the house, but then decided to go with somebody cheaper. 

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

I agree that Marian's dresses are lovely.  She's had some ugly hats, but her dresses are quite pretty, and I've liked almost all of them.  I will say that the yellow seems like an ingenue color, like Agnes or someone her age would wear.  But they are still quite beautiful.

I have noticed the lighting they use inside Agnes' house makes some of the colors change tone compared to the outside light.  I've had to stop a few times to verify that I was looking at the same dress! 

Yellow gas light vs natural light. 
 

 

[yellowjacket]

21 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

 

It wasn't the house that they cut costs on, it was George's office.  He said that when he wanted to do up the office he went with the people who had worked on the house, but then decided to go with somebody cheaper. 

Yes, Stanford White decorated their house, hence the grandeur.

When Peggy went home to Mom I was disappointed that we didn't get an appearance from the Maid of Shade.

I'll refrain this week from kvetching about the faux scenery.  

[Noneofyourbusiness]

59 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

But the likelihood of him being found out is basically nil if he stays in Doylestown and never sees Marian again. The likelihood of discovery goes up if he actually marries Marian and then is like, "remember I told you that you had no money? Yeah, not so much."

It would work if he's lying to Marian about what her father's stocks are worth but he doesn't have a way of using them on his own.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

1 hour ago, dmc said:

I think some of their writing has been bad

Well, I don't disagree with that (like I don't like the way they've rushed some story lines) but so far, they seem to have telegraphed where plots are going, not just offered surprise twists.

24 minutes ago, Noneofyourbusiness said:

It would work if he's lying to Marian about what her father's stocks are worth but he doesn't have a way of using them on his own.

I mean, that's possible but if that were the case, I think they would do a better job of indicating that was the case. Like have even one scene post-premiere with Raikes talking about Marian's inheritance or stock or what have you. Instead we've just gotten scene after scene of people complaining about his social climbing. 

[Atlanta]

47 minutes ago, yellowjacket said:

Yes, Stanford White decorated their house, hence the grandeur.

When Peggy went home to Mom I was disappointed that we didn't get an appearance from the Maid of Shade.

I'll refrain this week from kvetching about the faux scenery.  

Yes!! Bummed to see Peggy no longer in the main area of the show, but hopefully we see more of her next season. Can the Van Rhjins (however it's spelled) trade Marian for Peggy? She much more interesting and I love her smile.

I'm cheering for the long suffering Gladys to have a successful debut. Oscar, stay away from her! I hope Larry has more to do next season.

It's so funny that these people moan about someone being 'new.' Even they started somewhere, right?

Oh, Bertha. Never change. I lurve you. 

[yellowjacket]

On the accents:  Julian Fellows characters never speak in period accents.  If they did, we wouldn't understand them.  Watch a British or American movie from the 1930s, then imagine what the people would have sounded like in the decades before.  Also Nathan Lane is probably not over the top for the 1880s, but it's weird for only he to be period-accurate.  (Or maybe not, LOL.)  

[DiabLOL]

OMG Bertha spitting out feathers!!! I can’t believe someone as smart and ambitious as her would even think of sneaking into Astor’s place like that!

For some reason I thought Raikes was also going to be in Newport?

What on earth does “safe as brandy” mean?

Sorry to say both Agnes and George lost points with me after this episode. George really went overboard to ruin his former stenographer. He was way nicer to Turner even. Too much. I highly doubt that woman has ever had an awesome life or any future hope of one so why make it that much worse especially since he seems to have more money than anyone  really needs. No way is it ok for Agnes to pick her wretched racist maid over Peggy. 
If Peggy’s father did indeed take her living baby from her and let her think he died just so she would divorce a husband she loved and come work with him then that would make him one of the most vile evil tv characters ever. 
I hate most of these characters amd their stupid adherence to really hateful rules.

Marion is ridiculous. They better wrap up this storyline next week. I need to see Raikes finally exposed while I still give half a shit.

 

[AZChristian]

11 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

George really went overboard to ruin his former stenographer.

IDK . . . she didn't seem all that concerned about ruining him, as long as she got her gloves.

When someone gives someone a good job and trusts them as a valued employee, I'm not sure the employer has to be kind to that employee after they stab the employer in the back for their own gain.  People who play with fire sometimes get burned.  Badly.

[DiabLOL]

8 minutes ago, AZChristian said:

IDK . . . she didn't seem all that concerned about ruining him, as long as she got her gloves.

When someone gives someone a good job and trusts them as a valued employee, I'm not sure the employer has to be kind to that employee after they stab the employer in the back for their own gain.  People who play with fire sometimes get burned.  Badly.

Oh I am not defending what she did. I agree with you. It was a disappointing betrayal for sure! She shouldn’t have done it. I just think she basically has no chance in life after what she’s done and he seemed to go way harder than he should have. 

[BabyBella94]

 Synopsis for “Let the Tournament Begin” (1.09)

"As Marian prepares to embark on a new adventure, Ada and Aurora rush to stop her before it’s too late. With Gladys’ debut ball fast approaching, the clash between Bertha and Mrs. Astor has consequences for all of New York society. The discovery of a shocking letter changes everything for Peggy. Baudin lays out his double life."

[sugarbaker design]

46 minutes ago, DiabLOL said:

he seemed to go way harder than he should have. 

Right, that's exactly what this subplot was about.  George Russell is a loving and supportive husband while being a cutthroat businessman with a penchant for revenge.  Don't fuck with George!

Edited March 16, 2022 by sugarbaker design

[RachelKM]

19 hours ago, DiabLOL said:

Oh I am not defending what she did. I agree with you. It was a disappointing betrayal for sure! She shouldn’t have done it. I just think she basically has no chance in life after what she’s done and he seemed to go way harder than he should have. 

I thought it was cruel and perhaps harsh. But I don't know that it was that overboard or that Turner is a remotely apt comparison.

Turner, for all her sullen jealousy and pettiness, made a badly misjudged gambit to improve her station that cause no actual harm.  it was gross, wrong, and potentially hurtful. But in the end, did no damage and George apparently made his decision about how to handle her based on what he thought would prevent harm to his wife provided that Turner got the message and did her job.*

The stenographer 1) cheated him and his business, 2) collaborated with someone in a way that lead to actual deaths, and 3) attempted to ruin him completely in a manner that could have ended with him in jail.

As he said, she might well be prosecuted as part if a criminal negligence case. But if she wasn't, he was prepared to make sure she lived a life barely better than prison.

 

*Granted, I think all bets would have been off regarding Turner if he had learned she had used her continued position in his home to help a fortune hunter in his pursuit of Gladys.  I think he likely would have burned Turner's life to the ground. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by RachelKM

[Shermie]

2 hours ago, yellowjacket said:

Also Nathan Lane is probably not over the top for the 1880s, but it's weird for only he to be period-accurate. 

Nathan Lane is being character-accurate. McAllister was known for his flamboyant personality and over-the-top accent.

Quote

I will say that the yellow seems like an ingenue color, like Agnes or someone her age would wear.

And ingenue is a young innocent; Agnes is neither. Maybe you meant Gladys? I thought I read somewhere that Marian is intentionally put in pastels to reflect her innocence, although that doesn’t explain the occasional hot pink or deep purple.

I enjoyed seeing the kitchen help doing their work outside - plucking the chicken, beating the rugs, chopping the meat. Real work that most of these mucky-mucks have never seen and don’t even know about (much like some modern city people not knowing where food actually comes from; no, the answer is not “the grocery store”). As annoyed as Bertha was by having to spit feathers, she’s probably one of the few richie riches who actually did that work back in the day.

Edited March 16, 2022 by Shermie

[CarpeFelis]

15 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Come on, Fellowes, that's not how ruthless persons behave!

Yeah! This is how ruthless people behave:

[izabella]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

And ingenue is a young innocent; Agnes is neither. Maybe you meant Gladys? I thought I read somewhere that Marian is intentionally put in pastels to reflect her innocence, although that doesn’t explain the occasional hot pink or deep purple.

Yes, I meant Gladys, thank you. 

That purple dress she was wearing in this episode was downright ugly.  It was a garish shade of purple, and the red lace at her throat clashed.  Maybe it looks better in daylight? 

I loved seeing all the Newport fashions.  Watching Gladys flirting with John under Oscar's nose was delicious fun!  I can't wait to see her for her ball. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by izabella

[CarpeFelis]

10 hours ago, blackwing said:

Was there any mention of who is serving as Bertha's lady's maid?  That house seems to have a hundred servants so I'm sure that Mrs. Bruce just assigned somebody new.  But it would have been nice to have had a mention about it.  It doesn't seem to me that Bertha would dress herself.

It was mentioned. I don’t recall who said it but there was a throwaway line that Bertha had poached Gladys’ new maid for herself now that Turner was gone.

[Roseanna]

8 hours ago, Bulldog said:

Yes.  I assume she meant stillbirth or miscarriage, which I would assume was even more common back then.  Or maybe the child died after birth.  Walk thru any really old cemetery and you'll find a large number of child graves from this era. 

 

7 hours ago, RachelKM said:

True. In the 1850s and 60s (around the time Agnes would have been having children), more than 40% of children didn't make it to age 5. And socio-economics had very little, if any, impact since a lot of it was the result of infectious disease as opposed to food insecurity and environmentally caused chronic conditions. 

Because Agnes felt so much empathy towards Peggy, it's likely that she had stillbirth or her babies died shortly after birth. But it's possible that they were toddlers.

That Agnes had more children is an interesting information because it reveals that she had to have sex with her horrible husband for years.   

[Roseanna]

7 hours ago, dmc said:

Also I this is part of the reason I think Marian is sort of a dolt.  Because this was time where you absolutely needed to think about situation monetarily when you get married.  If she marries a middle class lawyer, she's not in society anymore.  She essentially would be cut off with a guy she's known two minutes

Marian seems to take the marriage very lightly although it's the most important (even only) decision in the woman's life. "Let's get married and then everything is OK" - huh.

However, I don't see nothing wrong to marry a middle-class lawyer if she loves mind and makes her decision with open eyes. As for the cutting out from society, I am sure there are much more interesting people elsewhere. 

As Marian is penniless, her options aren't otherwise good. Unless she finds a love match with a rich man, she had to marry without love, unless she wants to become a penniless spinster after Agnes' death.

[MJ Frog]

Raikes. Hmmph. I don't trust that motherf****er.

He's up to something, or he's just an ass. I liked him at first, but he started to give me a weird vibe, and then after he tried to browbeat Marian into having sex with him he was dead to me.

[Athena5217]

9 hours ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

But the costume designers are throwing really bizarre colors together on one dress. Purple and orange? Are college colors inspiring them? Did NYU compete against Princeton while they were sketching?

That was the ugliest dress I’ve seen on the show, and the colors were particularly unflattering on Marian. I’m sure it was accurate for the time period, but there are so many other dresses on the show that are not hideous I don’t know why that one needed to be on it. Maybe it’s leading to a big reveal that Marian is colorblind?

I thought the scene with Agnes and Peggy discussing Peggy’s child was one of the show’s best moments. Losing children was an experience very common for all women of that period regardless of race or financial status.a rich White woman like Agnes would have better access to medical care, but it often did not make a difference in saving the baby. Agnes’s terse comments were true to her character—she would not want to say too much because the emotion would overwhelm her.

[Pestilentia]

Quote

I don't understand at all how Peggy who is so clever could fall in love a man who isn't educated. What could they discuss about? Was he so good in sex?

Being uneducated does not mean one is unintelligent, or stupid, or incapable of conversation- it simply means one did not receive a formal education.    And being educated does not make one intelligent, or interesting, or a good conversationalist- all it means is that you were sent to school and managed a degree.   I'll spare you a complete list of "uneducated" people who are smart and interesting, but it would include a Jobs, a Gates, a Branson, etc. 

I can see Peggy meeting a charming, charismatic guy, feeling a connection and falling in love without asking to see his diploma- it happens all the time.  The heart wants.

As far as children's life expectancy during that era, none of my own great-great grandparent's first three children lived longer than 6 months.
Their fourth pregnancy gave them twin boys who both died of "the fever" at two years of age.
Their sixth child lived to be five.
Thankfully, their seventh, eighth, and ninth children survived and went on to live full, long lives. But I can't imagine the strength it took to keep having children and watching them die again and again and again.

[MissLucas]

5 hours ago, Pestilentia said:

But I can't imagine the strength it took to keep having children and watching them die again and again and again.

I occasionally work with family records from the 18th and 19th century. There are moments when I just have to step back and take a break. It's not just miscarriages and infant deaths that can overwhelm you but the regularity with which mothers die at the date of giving birth or shortly afterwards. Peggy nearly died giving birth and that was a sad reality too. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by MissLucas

[izabella]

22 hours ago, LydiaMoon1 said:

I'm glad Fellowes "saddled" Peggy with this potentially meaty storyline. I prefer that she have a mysterious husband, a secret baby, family conflict, class rivalry, career ambitions and star-crossed love to watching episodes of Peggy popping into rooms simply to hand letters to Ms. Van Rijn or follow that simple-minded Marian all around town.

I want Peggy to have a meaty story line, and am really, really hoping that her leaving the Van Rhijn house doesn't mean we will see less of her.

But I thought she HAD a great story line.  Young, beautiful, smart, and getting her writing career off the ground already.  The stories of wealthy black families during this time has not been mined at all, so I was hoping they would show us wealthy black society.  I wanted to see Peggy setting the world on fire with her writing, and setting her hot publisher on fire with love and admiration. 

But now, or soon, her story will be about being a single mom (because you know Schrodinger's baby will be found alive), and that was a career limiting move back then, as it often is even now.  Or maybe Elias kept the baby, and he'll be back with child in tow, and then it will be about Peggy trying to get her baby back the rest of the show. 

There is so much rich story telling they could do!  But I fear Peggy will now just be another lame baby mama story.

[limestation]

I have mixed feelings about this show and I don't know if I'm being petty but there seems to be way more things wrong with this Julian Fellows' undertaking than with Dowton. Some of the acting is just criminally bad (Marian) and the situations ridiculous. George's vindication was laughable at best and the whole hiding Bertha outside with the unclean riff raff was absurd. I do love the comparisons of Nathan Lane to Foghorn Leghorn though. I keep waiting for Bugs Bunny to show up! There's only so much scenery to chew up!!!

[Shermie]

Quote

Also I this is part of the reason I think Marian is sort of a dolt.  Because this was time where you absolutely needed to think about situation monetarily when you get married.  If she marries a middle class lawyer, she's not in society anymore. 

I think middle class would be the preferred station for me. Financially comfortable, but no constant worries about fitting in and doing everything the “right” way. Your friends were probably genuine and not just using you to advance their own place in society. You didn’t have to worry about people backstabbing you to knock you from your perch.

The top is a lonely place. The bottom is difficult and uncomfortable. The middle seems just right. #goldilocks

If Marian was a more charismatic character, I’d be rooting for her to aim for this. Her comments about equality and such seem to imply that’s what she thinks, but I just don’t find her compelling enough to care.

[JenE4]

12 hours ago, BabyBella94 said:

 Synopsis for “Let the Tournament Begin” (1.09)

"As Marian prepares to embark on a new adventure, Ada and Aurora rush to stop her before it’s too late. With Gladys’ debut ball fast approaching, the clash between Bertha and Mrs. Astor has consequences for all of New York society. The discovery of a shocking letter changes everything for Peggy. Baudin lays out his double life."

Who the hell is Baudin?!? Is this the bald valet who was lurking across the street , that no one knew his name? The way they threw in the storyline of George being set up by his underlings—instead of one of the many high-rolling/high-society enemies he’s made on his way up, which is the entire premise of the show—I wouldn’t be surprised if Baudin was the guy plucking the chickens and somehow the entire rising action of the series up until this point hinges on a ancillary character who has henceforth had no screen time! I’m going to be pissed if this is anything but Raikes revealing himself as Baudin and that he gave us a clue that everyone was right about him by choosing the alias Raikes. Well… I googled…  I might have gotten myself worked up over nothing. I think Baudin is the French chef. But even still, his big “twist ending” is the season capper out of nowhere? Come on! Maybe he’s really Belgian or something—who cares!

[LydiaMoon1]

56 minutes ago, izabella said:

There is so much rich story telling they could do!  But I fear Peggy will now just be another lame baby mama story.

Considering that we don't know what's planned for Peggy, maybe we should wait and see where this this storyline is going before we decide to trash it. Besides, her story has already removed her from the Van Rijn household and placed her back with her parents. Hopefully, we'll now get to explore more of the world of wealthy black elites in that time period. I agree that it's a subject that hasn't been explored in mainstream media. Also, since we all know that the wayward husband is going to turn up sooner or later, I hope we will also get to explore class tension in the black community.

I'm fully aware that Peggy's storyline could go either way. It may well end up being another lame baby mama story, since the larger society seems to have a hard time believing that black people exist outside of a pathetically small range of preconceived boxes. You never know though. Maybe Fellowes will surprise us. If not, I'll click this shit off so fast you'll see it as a blur.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

My sense is that Fellowes and the writers felt that keeping Peggy as Agnes' secretary was limiting to her growth as a character. By having her be a secretary and becoming friends with Marian, they gave the viewers a plausible reason to bring together the two worlds of Manhattan and Brooklyn but at some point, to keep Peggy's story moving and to show the larger world, they probably had to have her move on from the van Rhijn household.

It's just annoying that it feels like Armstrong was rewarded for bad behavior.

[iMonrey]

Quote

 I also watched Downton Abbey for several episodes before I got all the characters' names straight.

Eight of them? That's more than a season of Downton. I knew who Bates and Anna were after the very first episode. If George's valet is supposed to be a character that has any kind of story I should know his name by now. 

[MollyB]

22 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Marian's father had left everything to her only child. There was no reason to look for his other relatives.   

I have no basis for this theory and I don't pay attention well enough when I watch to pick up on details, but....if Raikes is hiding her fortune perhaps it's from the mother's side.  I didn't really pay attention to Marion's backstory regarding her mother so this is just conjecture.  Perhaps the mother's family put money into a trust for Marion that she could only receive after her father died so he couldn't get his hands on it.

[Readingallnight]

I have a feeling Peggy's storyline will be exactly what her father said - the guy she fell for was actually married, and seduced Peggy thinking he would get her father's store and money eventually.  They ran off and eloped, by the time her dad found them she was already pregnant.  He paid off or threatened Peggy's husband to tell the truth, that he was already married, which annulled the marriage.  That's why she couldn't keep the baby because she would actually be an unmarried mother which was unthinkable.  It's a not  uncommon story line, unwed mother wants to keep her baby and is told the baby died while she's out of it from childbirth and the baby is spirited off to an adoptive family or orphanage to be adopted.  Her mother won't condemn her father because she knows the truth, and Peggy's father doubles down on trying to control her life since her last decision went so wrong.

[KarenX]

1 minute ago, Readingallnight said:

I have a feeling Peggy's storyline will be exactly what her father said - the guy she fell for was actually married, and seduced Peggy thinking he would get her father's store and money eventually.  They ran off and eloped, by the time her dad found them she was already pregnant.  He paid off or threatened Peggy's husband to tell the truth, that he was already married, which annulled the marriage.  That's why she couldn't keep the baby because she would actually be an unmarried mother which was unthinkable.  It's a not  uncommon story line, unwed mother wants to keep her baby and is told the baby died while she's out of it from childbirth and the baby is spirited off to an adoptive family or orphanage to be adopted.  Her mother won't condemn her father because she knows the truth, and Peggy's father doubles down on trying to control her life since her last decision went so wrong.

Fingers crossed. I would like a misunderstood Mr Scott a lot more than an evil one.

Maybe one of Peggy’s baby cousins is actual her own baby and she hasn’t lost the baby from the family at all. Otherwise it is too sad.

[izabella]

3 hours ago, limestation said:

George's vindication was laughable at best

I hated this story line in the end because it made poor, working class people the bad guys when it's 1000% more likely and realistic that a robber baron would be the one responsible for cheap, shoddy parts and deaths as a result.  It made a working class secretary who probably had a shitty life to begin with, the bad guy that could take down a freaking robber baron without a single bit of back story or reason.  Ruthless robber barons screwed over poor people all the time, not the other way around.

I would have liked it better if one of the other robber barons had sabotaged him, or one of the old money bankers/aldermen had tried to get back at him for train station maneuvering.  Instead, the robber baron comes out of it innocent as a lamb and throwing his weight around to crush a woman headed for prison in order to make him ruthless. 

[RachelKM]

8 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Maybe it’s leading to a big reveal that Marian is colorblind?

I haven't disliked her clothes as much as many people seem to (too busy hating her face and then wondering how a face so similar to Meryl Streep's could engender so much irrational dislike). 

But this sentence has led to my new favorite head canon.  Marian is colorblind and her modiste finds her as insipid as we do and expresses it through sartorial violence. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by RachelKM

[chaifan]

3 hours ago, JenE4 said:

Who the hell is Baudin?!?

***Well… I googled…  I might have gotten myself worked up over nothing. I think Baudin is the French chef. But even still, his big “twist ending” is the season capper out of nowhere? Come on! Maybe he’s really Belgian or something—who cares!

I said the same thing!  I had to go to imdb to look up Baudin, and it's... the chef???  Here's the total controversy surrounding Baudin:

Baudin at lunch table reading a letter. 

Another staffer: What are you reading?

Baudin: None of your business.

Baudin walks out.

And from that, we're getting a "double life"???  And in the last episode of the season?  WTF, Fellowes.  Oh, I know!  Baudin is really English, just pretending to be French, and knew what an English service was all along!  Oh, the horrors!

Geez.  Just let the cranky French chef be the cranky French chef. 

[cardigirl]

19 hours ago, dmc said:

I think some of their writing has been bad

Love this!  Only some?  Judging by all the theories being thrown around about everyone's motives, I would say a lot of the writing has been lazy at best.  

However, I did enjoy the story of the young servants from Agnes' household this week.  I've never seen Newsies, so the young man doesn't bother me, and even though it is preposterous that Bridget would have followed him for miles, the story he told about his life and his mother was well-done. 

Also, with regard to Marian (oh dear she's stiff) and her outfits, I have burst out laughing at some of the hats she's been given.  There was one with a gigantic sprig of forsythia on it that was so amateurish, I couldn't believe it.  

Even Carrie Coon, who I love, comes across as stiff and uncomfortable, and I wonder if it's because she's trying to have a certain "accent" or something. 

Many of the scenes are filmed in a way that shows the characters moving as if they are following stage directions and not a natural movement. I have a hard time explaining it, but you can almost hear the director saying, "Okay, now you move to the left, so she can come forward, and then you move over here, and they will go downstage."  It's awkward. 

I want to like the show, but I'm frustrated by the poor writing a lot of the time. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by cardigirl

[blackwing]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

I hated this story line in the end because it made poor, working class people the bad guys when it's 1000% more likely and realistic that a robber baron would be the one responsible for cheap, shoddy parts and deaths as a result.  It made a working class secretary who probably had a shitty life to begin with, the bad guy that could take down a freaking robber baron without a single bit of back story or reason.  Ruthless robber barons screwed over poor people all the time, not the other way around.

I would have liked it better if one of the other robber barons had sabotaged him, or one of the old money bankers/aldermen had tried to get back at him for train station maneuvering.  Instead, the robber baron comes out of it innocent as a lamb and throwing his weight around to crush a woman headed for prison in order to make him ruthless. 

Yep, 100% this.  Robber barons got rich on the misery of others, and they didn't care who they hurt along the way.  When this series started, George is already a very successful robber baron, so presumably, many many people have been hurt at his hand along the way.  And for them to just pin the accident and blame on these two poor serfs just reinforces all along that "it's good to be bad" and that the greedy baron will always win.

I would have much preferred if 1) George was actually guilty, or 2) it was the older guy who refused his offer and then lost everything when George built a competing rail line.  Instead, we get conveniently wrapped up Teflon George.

I hate TV shows of this type when characters always win, or always lose.  There needs to be balance.  I'd love to see some kind of failure for George or Bertha.  I want Gladys' ball to be a success but I want others to shun Bertha.  I want Turner to come back and dump a gallon of horse urine and dung onto Bertha's fancy hat.    I want someone to take a shot at George.  I just want them to understand that if you treat people like crap, there needs to be some consequences. 

Bertha fired Turner because Agnes believed Armstrong's lie that Oscar and Turner were sleeping together.  Bertha incorrectly assumed that Turner and Larry were together.  Armstrong is revealed to be a liar and a horrible person.  This whole thing incensed me because 1) why wouldn't Oscar tell his mom that she was mistaken?  He's afraid that people will know he is gay but he could easily have said he has his eyes set on Miss Russell and Turner was helping him.  2) Why wouldn't Bertha actually talk to Larry?  I don't think she knows anything at all about him, she never talks to him.   3) Why can't Agnes send Bertha a note "oh my bad, my maid was lying about everything so I hope you didn't fire your own maid because of that".

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

My sense is that Fellowes and the writers felt that keeping Peggy as Agnes' secretary was limiting to her growth as a character. By having her be a secretary and becoming friends with Marian, they gave the viewers a plausible reason to bring together the two worlds of Manhattan and Brooklyn but at some point, to keep Peggy's story moving and to show the larger world, they probably had to have her move on from the van Rhijn household.

It's just annoying that it feels like Armstrong was rewarded for bad behavior.

I agree, I despise Armstrong and I hate that there are zero consequences to her for her behaviour.  Just as how I hate that Bannister suffered no consequences for his betrayal of Agnes, apart from the silent treatment.  He's got $100 in his pocket which is a year's salary so I'm sure he can stomach the shunning by his employer.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

44 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I agree, I despise Armstrong and I hate that there are zero consequences to her for her behaviour.  Just as how I hate that Bannister suffered no consequences for his betrayal of Agnes, apart from the silent treatment.  He's got $100 in his pocket which is a year's salary so I'm sure he can stomach the shunning by his employer.

I don't feel as strongly about Bannister because his actions didn't really hurt anyone. I mean, sure, Agnes'  and Church's pride were wounded but that's only because of her snobbery towards the Russells and Church's inexperience when it comes to an English-style service. But Bannister didn't set out to hurt Agnes, Church, or anyone, really. 

Meanwhile, Armstrong was acting maliciously towards Peggy (likely out of racism).

Edited March 16, 2022 by eleanorofaquitaine

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

Bertha fired Turner because Agnes believed Armstrong's lie that Oscar and Turner were sleeping together.  Bertha incorrectly assumed that Turner and Larry were together.  Armstrong is revealed to be a liar and a horrible person.  This whole thing incensed me because 1) why wouldn't Oscar tell his mom that she was mistaken?  He's afraid that people will know he is gay but he could easily have said he has his eyes set on Miss Russell and Turner was helping him.  2) Why wouldn't Bertha actually talk to Larry?  I don't think she knows anything at all about him, she never talks to him.   3) Why can't Agnes send Bertha a note "oh my bad, my maid was lying about everything so I hope you didn't fire your own maid because of that".

In this instance, Armstrong didn't lie.  She misinterpreted.  Oscar was doing something inappropriate with Turner, just not what she thought.  And they were being very familiar out in the open.

Oscar didn't tell the truth because, as horrified over him possibly sleeping with the Russell's maid as she was, Oscar planning to marry a Russell would make Agnes apoplectic.  And I cannot imagine what Oscar would say Turner was helping him with if he tried to hide the part about Gladys.

Bertha didn't talk to Larry because Turner's behavior was inappropriately forward with him and she didn't want to hear what she feared might be the truth.

Why would Agnes bother to send a note even if she thought Armstrong lied?  She has less than Zero Fucks to give for the Russells and only intervened as she did because it affected her own son.  But again, Armstrong didn't lie, she and Agnes just drew the wrong conclusion.  Armstrong didn't even really lie about Peggy so much as allow her own prejudices to fill in blanks from what information she had. And just because she drew incorrect assumptions about Peggy wouldn't necessarily mean she was wrong about Turner and Oscar.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by RachelKM

[kristen111]

11 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

That was the ugliest dress I’ve seen on the show, and the colors were particularly unflattering on Marian. I’m sure it was accurate for the time period, but there are so many other dresses on the show that are not hideous I don’t know why that one needed to be on it. Maybe it’s leading to a big reveal that Marian is colorblind?

I thought the scene with Agnes and Peggy discussing Peggy’s child was one of the show’s best moments. Losing children was an experience very common for all women of that period regardless of race or financial status.a rich White woman like Agnes would have better access to medical care, but it often did not make a difference in saving the baby. Agnes’s terse comments were true to her character—she would not want to say too much because the emotion would overwhelm her.

The dresses were pretty, but the Mary Poppins hats had to go.  They were for a teen, not a grown woman.

[Tango64]

2 hours ago, izabella said:

2 hours ago, izabella said:

I hated this story line in the end because it made poor, working class people the bad guys when it's 1000% more likely and realistic that a robber baron would be the one responsible for cheap, shoddy parts and deaths as a result.

 

Yes, another example of bad writing. This could have worked if Russell had conspired to make the two poor employees take the fall for his actual culpability in the deaths. That would have been consistent with the nature of robber barons and class disparity in this age. 

Edited March 16, 2022 by Tango64
formatting issue

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Tango64 said:

Yes, another example of bad writing. This could have worked if Russell had conspired to make the two poor employees take the fall for his actual culpability in the deaths. That would have been consistent with the nature of robber barons and class disparity in this age. 

Exactly. It's so Fellowes to basically have the rich, unscrupulously guy into somebody vulnerable to the whims of two low level employees. Frankly, I didn't even buy the original idea that someone was going to have to pay for the deaths of the passengers.

[hatchetgirl]

Quote

So… did McAllister set up Bertha? Did he prank her? Is this a test?

I'm worried he totally did that - just for his own amusement.  It was his suggestion to check out the house while The Mrs. Astor was away, so I don't see how we can really blame Bertha.  

[tennisgurl]

I really like this show, but they really need to cut down a few subplots. I like most all of the subplots, but that is almost a negative in that I want to see more of them, but we have so many subplots that they often feel like we are only getting part of the story. If they had just a few less we could focus more on the ones that we keep, giving them more meat. 

John Addams, your a messy bitch who loves drama aren't you? Oscar's face as his boyfriend flirted with his wanna be future wife was amazing.

It cannot be coincidence that Mr. Raikes has a name that looks very much like Rake, an old fashioned word for an untrustworthy seductive man. I know that Marian is naïve, but when her good, trustworthy friend Aurora, who has no reason to lie, says that she gets bad vibes from him, she decides that she needs to marry him right away? I do not trust him in the slightest, I think Aunt Agnes called him as a social climber right away, just like Aunt Ada's untrustworthy suiter. 

Edited March 17, 2022 by tennisgurl

[CarpeFelis]

5 hours ago, MollyB said:

I have no basis for this theory and I don't pay attention well enough when I watch to pick up on details, but....if Raikes is hiding her fortune perhaps it's from the mother's side.  I didn't really pay attention to Marion's backstory regarding her mother so this is just conjecture.  Perhaps the mother's family put money into a trust for Marion that she could only receive after her father died so he couldn't get his hands on it.

…or when she marries.

[KarenX]

41 minutes ago, hatchetgirl said:

I'm worried he totally did that - just for his own amusement.  It was his suggestion to check out the house while The Mrs. Astor was away, so I don't see how we can really blame Bertha.  

I mean… if you get caught in someone’s house without really having permission and because you bribed someone to let you in, you are at fault. Totally blameable.

All her hard work and she undermined her tenuous position herself in the end. It wasn’t the train scandal at all.

[hatchetgirl]

43 minutes ago, KarenX said:

I mean… if you get caught in someone’s house without really having permission and because you bribed someone to let you in, you are at fault. Totally blameable.

But she didn't ask and she didn't bribe, it was McAllister that offered and McAllister who bribed.  McAllister is playing the "oh but i'm such good friends with Mrs. Astor, she won't be here for days, I'll take you over there."  

[Macbeth1966]

On 3/15/2022 at 12:58 PM, Brian Cronin said:

I'm a huge Nathan Lane fan and I was pleased to see him here, but yeah, Lane and subtle/natural are not things that go well together. ;)

That's why Nathan was chosen for the role.  I can only imagine McCallister, in order to ingratiate himself with cold NY society, would lay the southern charm on very thickly.  

It appears his in to Mrs. Astor was that he was a cousin to the man who married her husband's sister.  But once he got in - he had to keep it.  He had to entertain.

I understand problematic accents.  I hate how people butcher the Boston accent.  Especially Matt Damon and Ben Affleck who grew up in the Boston area and should know better.  Good  Will Hunting is a good movie - but those accents.....