S06.E06: Our Little Island Girl: Part 2

[JudyObscure]

My favorite moment:  Toby kissing Madison's boyfriend and saying he loved him, over the muffins.  I've always loved Toby, he's always been the only person on the show who doesn't take himself too seriously.  I like Kate, but she has never appreciated him enough for me.

All other excellent points aside, the twins should be where Rebecca is this Thanksgiving.

Sophie sure can carry a grudge over the long haul, can't she? Of course Kate is going to be loyal to her brother.  It really wasn't her place to tell Sophie about the infidelity at all.  It was Kevin's pathetic duty.

Randall, all dressed up for the recital, took my breath away.

[Jodithgrace]

Personally, I don't believe that boyfriends/girlfriends get to factor into major holidays until they are engaged, living together or otherwise an established couple. I don't mean they can't be invited, i just mean they don't get get precedence over family. Elijah shouldn't get to host Madison and the twins, on their first real Thanksgiving, and this should have all be worked out beforehand. 

Didn't like Beth's phone call at all, and that girl didn't have the body of a Prima ballerina. Not my rules, you understand, but she seems to be too stocky compared to other ballerinas I've seen. She would be fine on Broadway, but you can't convince me that she had a lead role in The Nutcracker. I did like the way older Beth looked. 

Kevin...time to move out and get your own place. Why does he act like he can't afford to do this? I guess he's paying for the house where Madison and the twins live, but surely he can afford an apartment for himself with room for the twins to visit. They only need one bedroom right now. These people seems to go out of the way to make problems for themselves. 

[Jax7917]

11 hours ago, Spartan Girl said:

Ballet can be ruthless. So glad that Beth’s student wound up starring in The Nutcracker!

Kevin really was a dick. For once Kate was on fire, calling him out on all his crap. He wasn’t really in love with Madison and therefore has no right playing the aggrieved ex. Not to mention using Rebecca’s condition to guilt Madison into caving for Thanksgiving was pretty low.

Also glad that Elijah finally stood up for himself. He’s a nice guy, and both he and Madison deserve better.

I didn’t think it was right the way Kevin shoved the comment about it being his moms last “good” thanksgiving in Madison’s face the way he did , but I agreed with him . The twins aren’t only Madison’s kids , they are Kevins too . The truth of the matter is , with Alzheimer’s , it can progress hard and fast and Kevin should be able to have a nice thanksgiving with at least one memory of his mother being with his children . It seems like Kevin has no say in anything and I thought Madison should have let him have this one holiday , even if she didn’t want to come , herself . 
 

The writers of this show always need to have one of the Pearson’s have the last word on everything . It’s ok for Beth to be disappointed with someone from 20, 25 years ago without having her tell him off later in her life. This show never lets things just be . It’s always a speech about someone who wronged them . They all just come off so entitled . 

[CountryGirl]

I loved the focus on Beth this episode and knowing she and the students she mentors are a success in the future. I am thinking this is showing the end of her arc, given we see her in the future and the episode title (Little Island Girl, Part II).

However, that scene where she confronted her dance teacher (played by the still-yummy Goran Visnjic) had me cringing almost as much as when Kate confronted her ex, Mark, last year. While I agree he could have been more sympathetic when her father died, he was there to push her to be her best, not coddle her, and I feel like it's wrong to make him the scapegoat for her choosing to give up on her first love. That conversation should have been saved for her therapist or written in a letter years ago and ripped up.

Tiny Beth was adorable and the actress looks so much like Annie. The scenes with Tiny Beth and her father were adorable.

Randall telling their daughters to remember this moment (when Beth came out on that stage with the fallen dancer) and how incredible their mother was...that was wonderful.

[CountryGirl]

The Kevin/Madison storyline really pissed me off. Madison, especially. When you have a child (or children) with someone and you are not in a relationship with that person, you do not get to unilaterally decide what you get to do with that child (or children). Kevin was wrong to assume that Madison would come east to spend Thanksgiving at the cabin, but her not having any plans until Elijah inviting her and then deciding, she and the twins are staying there, too bad, so sad, Kevin, without even talking to him first (it's the kids' first Thanksgiving!!!) is some kind of bullshit. Her discussing it with Kate, which put Kate in the middle, before she even discussed it with Kevin, who, you know, is actually the kids' father, was ridiculous and unfair. Not to mention, her inability to hide something was up while Kevin was trying to work (filming Manny reboot scenes) was a huge distraction and again, this should have been discussed between the two of them already. Kevin only forced the issue when it was blatantly obvious Madison was keeping something from him and Kate knew all about it.

I understand they want to co-parent without getting lawyers involved, but it is long past time for them to get a legal agreement regarding custody, particularly when it comes to the often-sticky issue of holidays. Kevin needs to get his own place and lawyer up so that is isn't just him constantly capitulating to whatever Madison wants (as he did here). Also, while I get that Kate didn’t want to make the same mistake with Madison that she did with Sophie and keeping Kevin's cheating secret, I thought she was being totally unfair to Kevin. He’s not out of line for wanting his kids to spend Thanksgiving with his family, especially considering Rebecca’s condition (even if I didn't care for his comment about Rebecca's condition being used as leverage for the twins to go east) and he isn't wrong here that it could be her last "good" Thanksgiving). Kevin isn't being an asshole or a jerk here. He's just a father, wanting to spend time with his kids, and he's an afterthought in Madison's mind as she didn't even think about talking to him before saying "yes" to Elijah's plans and she knew full well the plans were inclusive of the twins.

I appreciate and welcome that Madison is moving on with Elijah (keep her far from Kevin, please), but the implication seems to be that while she gets to move on with her life and her new "batting out of his league" man, Kevin needs to bow out and let Madison be in love and not have to take him and his place as the twins' father into consideration. Particularly now that she has someone in her life. She seems more concerned with making Elijah comfortable and seems to have little use for Kevin now that she's met someone else and that just doesn't sit right with me. It is almost as if she is punishing him, however unconsciously, for not being in love with her, which is also completely unfair as you cannot feel feelings that aren't there.

I also didn't care for Elijah's scene with Kevin. Him asserting his rights when he's been dating her all of a few months and who's to say whether he's going anywhere or not was just way too premature and really off-putting as Kevin has been nothing but nice and accommodating to Elijah and the relationship, almost too much so. The fact remains that Kevin is the kids' father and he will always be a part of their life, no matter whom Madison is with or whom he is with in the future. It is simply not reasonable or fair to assume he should give up his time with them for Madison to always do what she wants or what Elijah wants, just as it would not be reasonable if the situation were reversed and Kevin had a girlfriend and was making plans for himself, the girlfriend and the kids without any thought for Madison. Can you imagine Madison's reaction is the situation were reversed? And Kevin was making plans without her? Her head would explode. But I think sometimes Madison thinks because she's the mom and the twins are living with her, that she has the ultimate say, which isn't the case. Or it shouldn't be.

If I had any sort of remnants of leanings towards Kevin/Madison, well, after this, I am 100% not wanting to see them as end game now. Marriage to her would be a lifetime of Kevin making concessions to keep her happy and his family intact.

[txhorns79]

13 minutes ago, Jax7917 said:

The truth of the matter is , with Alzheimer’s , it can progress hard and fast and Kevin should be able to have a nice thanksgiving with at least one memory of his mother being with his children . It seems like Kevin has no say in anything and I thought Madison should have let him have this one holiday , even if she didn’t want to come , herself . 

I'll admit that I'm not entirely clear about everyone's location in California, but if Rebecca can regularly be around Kate's kids, is there anything stopping her from seeing the twins on some kind of regular basis?  That isn't to discount the importance of a holiday meal where the entire family is together, but if the concern is wanting Rebecca to be with the twins as much as possible before that becomes too hard for her, why isn't that already happening?   

 

8 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

However, that scene where she confronted her dance teacher (played by the still-yummy Goran Visnjic) had me cringing almost as much as when Kate confronted her ex, Mark, last year. While I agree he could have been more sympathetic when her father died, he was there to push her to be her best, not coddle her, and I feel like it's wrong to make him the scapegoat for her choosing to give up on her first love. That conversation should have been saved for her therapist or written in a letter years ago and ripped up.

I think I might have said: "Beth, it sounds like you have a very nice life.  I'm sorry if I hurt you, but sitting here today, which aspects of your life would you want to give up in return for whatever you think you lost because of me?" 

[CountryGirl]

Toby and Kate...ay yi yi. They are a pressure cooker, ready to explode.  Or maybe a Big Green Egg, about to blow (sorry, couldn't resist). 

Kate, I know you and Kevin tend toward the co-dependent with each other, but kick your brother out. He can easily afford it. I think it's as much Kate not wanting to be alone with Toby clearly spending way more time at work than they envisioned when he accepted the position. But Toby's annoyance at Kevin being there is a symptom of the growing issues between him and Kate.

But I am going to stand by my very unpopular opinion that Kate isn't wrong to have stayed in Los Angeles. If she had gone, she'd be as alone as she is now (whether Toby is in the office or WFH), in fact, even more so, and without her LA support structure, babysitters included. Toby wouldn't have to commute back and forth but regardless of where he is located, it seems he is constantly working and hasn't done one thing to look for another position, closer to home and his very young children and one where he isn't expected to sign his life away. I get that he is so happy to have a position after being unemployed for so long but there needs to be more balance. His kids are not going to be young forever and Kate can't just sit there on the shelf until he has time for her. 

 

[SunnyBeBe]

11 hours ago, txhorns79 said:

I think the lesson of this episode is for people to learn boundaries.  Kate cannot be Kevin's confidante in his marriage when she was good friends with his wife, and Kate has no place getting in the middle of parenting issues between he and Madison.  Kevin, you have no place involving yourself in Kate's marriage, much less correcting Toby on his behavior.  And honestly, are we really supposed to believe that the Thanksgiving spat was so earth shattering for Kate and Sophie that not only did they never address it in 20+ years, but Sophie knew exactly what event Kate was referencing with her text? 

I also felt bad for Beth's old dance instructor.  She's dumping a whole lot of her personal issues on him, some 25 years later, and it just felt deeply unfair and kind of made her look a little bit crazy.

Also Madison, you share children with Kevin.  Neither of you should be unilaterally making holiday plans for the kids without discussing it with one another. 

Finally, Elijah is really off-putting.  I felt like his speech to Kevin made him look creepy and small. 

I didn’t know where Beth was going with her unloading in that phone call.  For a moment, I thought she was going to accuse him of inappropriate touching…idk. Based on what she did say, I’d feel very uncomfortable if I were the recipient of such a call. She said she was ok, but if she’s unstable, that means nothing.  It seemed stalkerish to me.  These writers think stuff like that makes the character stronger and shows how enduring they are and how we should cheer for them more.  It bordered on stalkerish with Nicky and Kate, too, imo, back when they sought out someone from their past.  
 

 

[Ohiopirate02]

5 minutes ago, CountryGirl said:

Toby and Kate...ay yi yi. They are a pressure cooker, ready to explode.  Or maybe a Big Green Egg, about to blow (sorry, couldn't resist). 

Kate, I know you and Kevin tend toward the co-dependent with each other, but kick your brother out. He can easily afford it. I think it's as much Kate not wanting to be alone with Toby clearly spending way more time at work than they envisioned when he accepted the position. But Toby's annoyance at Kevin being there is a symptom of the growing issues between him and Kate.

But I am going to stand by my very unpopular opinion that Kate isn't wrong to have stayed in Los Angeles. If she had gone, she'd be as alone as she is now (whether Toby is in the office or WFH), in fact, even more so, and without her LA support structure, babysitters included. Toby wouldn't have to commute back and forth but regardless of where he is located, it seems he is constantly working and hasn't done one thing to look for another position, closer to home and his very young children and one where he isn't expected to sign his life away. I get that he is so happy to have a position after being unemployed for so long but there needs to be more balance. His kids are not going to be young forever and Kate can't just sit there on the shelf until he has time for her. 

 

I agree with you about Kate and the kids still in LA.  I think the show is doing a good job showing Toby's job is taking up more of his time than he envisioned.  Kate and the kids could be in SF with him, and the result would still be the same--Toby's work-life balance is out of whack.  

[absnow54]

Firmly on Team Kevin-get-your-own-place-a-manny-and-a-lawyer-to-hash-out-a-custody-agreement. Kevin's dying mother is 100% a priority over Madison's new boyfriend feeling lonely. The kids should go with Kevin, and Madison can stay home. 

[JudyObscure]

24 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

which aspects of your life would you want to give up in return for whatever you think you lost because of me?" 

But, but, Beth would have been dancing on the world stage!  Putin would be offering to give up Ukraine if she would only perform one solo at the Bolshoi! 

That's the part that Beth didn't quite understand then or with her pupils now.  For every, "star pupil" there are usually about twenty girls who also danced before they walked and had grand dreams.  The slump Beth went into when her father died, gave some other girl a chance at the good roles,  maybe it was past time he nurtured another talent. Now, Beth's favorite dancer's fall at the recital is some other girl's guilty wish fulfilled. 

It's great that Beth spots special talent and encourages it, but so often the sort of teacher who has stardom as the goal, neglects the rest of the class who just want to reach their own personal best and experience the joy of dance.

Edited February 23, 2022 by JudyObscure

[CountryGirl]

11 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:

I think I might have said: "Beth, it sounds like you have a very nice life.  I'm sorry if I hurt you, but sitting here today, which aspects of your life would you want to give up in return for whatever you think you lost because of me?" 

I'm sure he would have said exactly that (perfect response!), had he not still been in "WTF are you calling me after all these years?" mode.

[tennisgurl]

Beth is so often the voice of reason that she can lull you into a false sense of security, but then you get things like that cringy call to her old dance teacher and your reminded that Beth is a total Pearson. Yes, please go ahead and call your teacher who you haven't seen in twenty years to tell him how much he sucks and ruined her dreams and that your a little island girl in the middle of the night at his office, like a normal person. I wanted to see Goran Visnjic on the other side of the call, starring in bafflement as he ponders whether or not this is a drunk dial and why they're talking about islands now. I am not even so sure what he did was so horrible, yes he should have reached out when her dad died and been more understanding, but he was her teacher, not her therapist, at a very prestigious school, its not his job to hold her hand. If Beth really was destined to become the worlds greatest ballerina, she wouldn't have given up because her one teacher stopped giving her all of his attention.

Also, if her favorite students dad is a hot shot lawyer, why was she even in a scholarship program? Shouldn't her spot have gone to a worthy students from a lower income family?

Edited February 23, 2022 by tennisgurl

[Jeddah]

1 minute ago, tennisgurl said:

Also, if her favorite students dad is a hot shot lawyer, why was she even in a scholarship program? Shouldn't her spot have gone to a worthy students from a lower income family?

No, because this girl had fire! She reminded Beth of herself! So screw over the poor kids.

[Jax7917]

1 hour ago, txhorns79 said:

I'll admit that I'm not entirely clear about everyone's location in California, but if Rebecca can regularly be around Kate's kids, is there anything stopping her from seeing the twins on some kind of regular basis?  That isn't to discount the importance of a holiday meal where the entire family is together, but if the concern is wanting Rebecca to be with the twins as much as possible before that becomes too hard for her, why isn't that already happening?   

 

Yea but if holidays weren’t important , no one anywhere would care to get together . They are important and Thanksgiving was the Pearson family holiday that was special to them . Everyone has a holiday that is most important to them . For a lot of people it’s Christmas Day , some it’s Christmas Eve , some Easter etc . If my mom was very sick , I’d want the family to be together for our favorite holiday . Plus , he’s the father of the kids and it seems like he never has a say in anything .,

Edited February 23, 2022 by Jax7917

[CountryGirl]

8 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Beth is so often the voice of reason that she can lull you into a false sense of security, but then you get things like that cringy call to her old dance teacher and your reminded that Beth is a total Pearson.

OMG yes. Which is ironic considering all the grief she gave Randall with his equally-cringy having to go to the hearing of the guy who broke into their home recently.

I see you, Beth!

But in fairness, you probably can't escape the Pearson, being married to one. 

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Toby and Kate...ay yi yi. They are a pressure cooker, ready to explode.  Or maybe a Big Green Egg, about to blow (sorry, couldn't resist). 

Kate, I know you and Kevin tend toward the co-dependent with each other, but kick your brother out. He can easily afford it. I think it's as much Kate not wanting to be alone with Toby clearly spending way more time at work than they envisioned when he accepted the position. But Toby's annoyance at Kevin being there is a symptom of the growing issues between him and Kate.

But I am going to stand by my very unpopular opinion that Kate isn't wrong to have stayed in Los Angeles. If she had gone, she'd be as alone as she is now (whether Toby is in the office or WFH), in fact, even more so, and without her LA support structure, babysitters included. Toby wouldn't have to commute back and forth but regardless of where he is located, it seems he is constantly working and hasn't done one thing to look for another position, closer to home and his very young children and one where he isn't expected to sign his life away. I get that he is so happy to have a position after being unemployed for so long but there needs to be more balance. His kids are not going to be young forever and Kate can't just sit there on the shelf until he has time for her. 

 

While I disagree with your UO, I am in total agreement that if Toby isn’t looking for other work closer to LA as he promised, then he is in the wrong, too.

[PepSinger]

1 hour ago, CountryGirl said:

Her discussing it with Kate, which put Kate in the middle, before she even discussed it with Kevin, who, you know, is actually the kids' father, was ridiculous and unfair. Not to mention, her inability to hide something was up while Kevin was trying to work (filming Manny reboot scenes) was a huge distraction and again, this should have been discussed between the two of them already. Kevin only forced the issue when it was blatantly obvious Madison was keeping something from him and Kate knew all about it.

I agree with someone else upthread who said that Kevin needs to stop inviting his family to tapings. They clearly don’t know how to behave as each time they’ve come it’s been disastrous. 
 

I will also admit my slight bias in Kevin’s favor because I would’ve given ANYTHING to have my father want to be an active part of my life growing up as Kevin wants to be with his kids, which is why I find Madison’s carelessness with his desires particularly odious. Madison lucked out with having Kevin as her kids’ father, and she needs to be reminded of that.

Speaking of Madison, how long has she been dating Elijah??? They’re already spending major holidays together??? They are rushing things. Major red flag, IMO.

[greekmom]

Kevin and no home. Maybe he is waiting for the cabin to be finished so he can move there?? I dunno.

If Kevin doesn't want to lawyer up, at least they should hire a mediator to draw up a consenting agreement in regards to custody, visitations, holidays, etc.  Because I can see that creepy Elijiah wanting to adopt the twins just to screw Kevin over and Madison going along with it if they get closer and talk marriage.

 

[CountryGirl]

18 minutes ago, PepSinger said:

I agree with someone else upthread who said that Kevin needs to stop inviting his family to tapings. They clearly don’t know how to behave as each time they’ve come it’s been disastrous. 
 

I will also admit my slight bias in Kevin’s favor because I would’ve given ANYTHING to have my father want to be an active part of my life growing up as Kevin wants to be with his kids, which is why I find Madison’s carelessness with his desires particularly odious. Madison lucked out with having Kevin as her kids’ father, and she needs to be reminded of that.

Speaking of Madison, how long has she been dating Elijah??? They’re already spending major holidays together??? They are rushing things. Major red flag, IMO.

Same, @PepSinger, same, to the bolded. At least when he was sober. And when I saw how he was with his now-stepkids but never with me or my brother...his own flesh-and-blood...yeah.

Moving on, I feel Kevin is being punished for not loving her and Kate (who needs to mind her own business) pushed that with Elijah is really falling in love with her and something she has never gotten and that is some kind of bullshit. Kevin shouldn't be made to feel guilty here. He hasn't done anything wrong. 

What was Kevin supposed to do? Lie? Fake feelings that aren't there? If she hadn't gotten pregnant, he likely never would have talked to her again. They hadn't even gone out on so much as a date before they had sex and that she got pregnant does not a foundation for a proper relationship make. 

If she's so happy and in love with Elijah (and I'm not sure she is in love, probably in like, and what she loves is how into her he is and she can wave him in front of Kevin's face), then she needs to stop punishing Kevin for the apparently unpardonable sin of not falling in love with her when I would argue she was more in love with the idea of being in love with him and making a family for the twins (newsflash, they are STILL a family) than she was in love with who Kevin really is. 

She has been dating Elijah maybe 3-4 months, tops, given the twins haven't changed much and they change a lot in those formative years. To immediately say "yes" to his Thanksgiving plans without even consulting Kevin first as far as the twins go was all kinds of wrong. Even if they were married, she still would need to check in with Kevin and vice versa. 

Madison is behaving very childishly (and Lord knows, Kevin knows all about that), almost as if she's trying to prove something with this relationship, practically "Look at me, moving on, Kevin! Look at what you're missing!" Except, much to her disappointment, I'm sure, he really has no fucks to give - except where it pertains to his relationship with his kids.

[absnow54]

12 minutes ago, greekmom said:

If Kevin doesn't want to lawyer up, at least they should hire a mediator to draw up a consenting agreement in regards to custody, visitations, holidays, etc.  Because I can see that creepy Elijiah wanting to adopt the twins just to screw Kevin over and Madison going along with it if they get closer and talk marriage.

It definitely feels like Madison and Elijah are playing house and edging Kevin out. Kevin needs a lawyer before the twins starts calling Elijah "Dada" in the next very special episode. He is clearly trying to stay engaged in his children's' lives, and it's never going to work if Madison gets to call all the shots. Especially with a boyfriend struggling with a "Nice Guy" complex.

[madmax]

If Kevin's waiting for the cabin to be built, fine.  But rent something in the mean time and get out of Toby & Kate's.  Of course, then Kate would be all alone with the kids and whine about that.

Get a custody agreement.  Now.  I'm surprised that no one has even thought of that.  Hammer out some details on holidays.  It's not that hard.

Madison shouldn't be unilaterally deciding things.  There are two parents, both wanting to remain engaged.  So just deciding you're hanging with your new boyfriend on a major holiday - regardless of the fact that it's a Pearson thing - is all kinds of wrong.  

Re: Kate/Sophia and Kate/Madison:  Family, especially for the Pearsons, comes first.  So Kate was right not sharing Kevin's secret with Sophia and Sophia should have realized that years ago.  Although I do think they interacted prior to this, but I might be mistaken.  My focus tends to wane when Sophia is on the screen.  But Kate/Madison was all kinds of wrong, for the same reason.  Family first.  She should have at the very least mentioned to Kevin to discuss holidays with Madison and maybe, you know, get a custody agreement?

I totally zoned out on Beth's call, so I'll take everyone's word that it was cringe.  I thought it was stupid, calling after so long.

[Ohiopirate02]

9 minutes ago, greekmom said:

Kevin and no home. Maybe he is waiting for the cabin to be finished so he can move there?? I dunno.

If Kevin doesn't want to lawyer up, at least they should hire a mediator to draw up a consenting agreement in regards to custody, visitations, holidays, etc.  Because I can see that creepy Elijiah wanting to adopt the twins just to screw Kevin over and Madison going along with it if they get closer and talk marriage.

 

Elijah can want to adopt the kids, but that will never happen without Kevin relinquishing his paternal rights.  That is something Kevin will never do, and we already know it.  That is really what bugs me with this whole storyline.  The show gave too much away in the flashforwards, we know Kevin and Madison are in a good place on Kate's second wedding day, and we know the twins are with Kevin in his home in 2030.  There is not a lot of show left, and I wonder what these scenes are supposed to do besides showing how Kate finally sided with her friend over her brother (even if the friend is dead wrong like Madison was tonight).  The only other explanation I can think of for including so much Elijah tonight was to keep Madison in the running as Kevin's future wife.  I may be reading this wrong, but we did also get Miguel being quietly jealous of Rebecca and Matt cut with Kevin/Madison/Elijah.  I can see the parallels there if the show wanted to go in that direction.

[tennisgurl]

I am really glad I am not the only one on team Kevin regarding Thanksgiving, I hate that the show is trying to act like he's the bad guy in this whole situation. He could have handled it better at first, and bringing in Rebecca's illness was uncalled for, but Madison should have talked to Kevin about what they would do for Thanksgiving, she doesn't get to just decide on her own what the twins are doing for the holidays. Kevin needs to get a lawyer and a custody agreement stat. I get that they don't want to make this acrimonious, but having actual hard and fast agreements on who gets to have the kids when and deciding on who gets what holidays will be better in the long run and will probably cause even less arguments. Kevin so badly wants to be a dad but everyone is acting like Madison takes priority as parents just because she's the mom, which is terribly unfair to Kevin, he has just as much of a right to be with his kids as she does. Madison knows what a big deal Thanksgiving is to Kevin's family, but she wants to keep the kids so that she can hang out with some guy she's been dating for a few months? She cant just call Christmas or Easter? Its her presumption that really bugs me though, she, Kate, and Elijah just seem to assume that she can decide this without it being a conversation with Kevin and that he's ridiculous for not being alright with being told that he cant share his Thanksgiving with his kids without it even being something they talk about. Just get a custody agreement, hammer out the details, and get your own place, don't let Madison call all of the shots, this is better for everyone. I think that a big reason Kevin wont get a place is because he's lonely, but he really needs to buy a place right now. 

Kate's lecture to him at the end really rubbed me the wrong way, the whole "she's raising your kids" thing just speaks to how much Kevin needs to fight for joint custody if even his own sister thinks of Kevin as the backup parent. It really feels like Madison wants to make her own new family with Elijah and the kids while edging Kevin out and Kate wants Kevin to step out of the way and let it happen because she feels guilty about what happened with Sophie and is still a bit disappointed that Kevin didn't marry Madison. I am really not sure about this relationship with Elijah and Madison, they seem to be moving way too fast, its only been a few months and they are already practically living together and planning on spending a major holiday together, I suspect that Madison might be on the rebound and desperate to find a man who is totally devoted to her and is down to start a family ready made. I have liked Elijah alright before, but he really put me off in this episode. His speech at the end made him sound creepy, like he's a former nerd who's super excited to get with the hot chick because she's the hot chick while "getting one over" on the cool guy.

Also, this is a huge pet peeve of mine, I HATE when people start to bring up something uncomfortable or are clearly giving signs of wanting to start something, but when you bring it up they say "I don't want to start this now" or something, that's a million times worse then just saying it! Just tell me so I don't spend a whole day or two guessing what the problem is while stressing out, or don't be obvious that you want to talk about something!

[ljenkins782]

11 hours ago, taragel said:

This felt like the weakest episode they've ever done. And it was a BETH episode?! She's usually written really well, but I didn't understand tonight's thing at all. She was mad that her former dance teacher didn't tell her he was sorry about her father's death? That's it?! I kept waiting for a big bad reveal like he sexually molested her or something, but no it just seemed to be that someone she looked up to looked at her as... his paying client? I feel like the dance stuff in general has been really kind of ill-fitting for Beth. It felt like it really came out of nowhere despite the flashbacks and never really fit the character, esp. since she was depicted as being really great at her high-powered office job in s1? (I don't remember what that was exactly.) 

And I'm so sick of Sophie storylines. Like bring her back (I know, she's on Virgin River) or don't, but stop with the halting half-in, half-out stuff. 

Kevin and Madison just need to be adults and communicate. As do Toby and Kate because so far they haven't shown us any reason for a divorce other than Toby working a lot in a different city. MEH. All that work they did to get us on his side (because really, most people did not like Toby in S1) and now that's just being tossed aside. 

I'm glad the show is ending soon. Sometimes (maybe even often) they can still hit it out of the park but tonight really felt like filler/too small to be a story.

Agreed on the weakness of the episode. I'm very confused at how a show in its final season with a multitude of existing themes yet to be explored can devote almost an entire episode to a storyline like Beth's dance background. It doesn't advance any of the main plots and it tried SO hard to manufacture an emotional scene that felt unearned. All the treacly music in the world isn't going to make me care about a character who was just introduced or make me feel sorry for Beth, who while not the prima ballerina she wanted to be, has had a damn good life. Life has disappointments and negative experiences that we'd wish hadn't happened, but in terms of how things turned out, Beth has a lot to be grateful for and the dance instructor really doesn't have a ton to answer for. If he'd abused her in some way, yes, but focusing on a new person when the previous person isn't the top dancer anymore is really just life. He could have been more sensitive about her dad's death, but he didn't actually owe her anything.

And Beth parking herself on the stage next to the dancer...I don't even know what that was supposed to do. Honestly, the girl fell into a posed position and if she'd had the wherewithal, she could have pretended it was part of the routine. Beth running out and plopping down next to her ended any chance of salvaging the routine. It just felt like a huge reach to find an "empowering" moment and missed the mark for me. 

Kevin and Madison need to set some rules, especially when there going to be events as far flung as California and Pennsylvania. In this particular case, I'm not sure I see why Madison needed to take the twins to her new boyfriend's house. they only appear to have been dating a short while, I think she could have been flexible on this one holiday that she knows is extremely special to Kevin. And while he threw it out there in the heat of the moment, it was a fair point to make about Rebecca. If Elijah and Madison work out, there will be many more holidays in the future for them.

The Toby and Kate stuff is similarly frustrating. Toby working hard to support the family isn't a huge crime and Kate wanting to stay with her low-paying, part-time job is the reason they can't live together like a normal family, so the distance issue is really on her. It's just so hard to root for Kate, she only seems to see things from her own point of view and there's no making her happy. Surprises on her birthday get a Debbie downer response because Toby didn't come in person, then he did and she wasn't happy about that either. 

ETA:

Quote

Also, this is a huge pet peeve of mine, I HATE when people start to bring up something uncomfortable or are clearly giving signs of wanting to start something, but when you bring it up they say "I don't want to start this now" or something, that's a million times worse then just saying it! Just tell me so I don't spend a whole day or two guessing what the problem is while stressing out, or don't be obvious that you want to talk about something!

OMG, yes! A difficult conversation is made so much more difficult when one has hours to contemplate what it might be about. And even if you know the topic, spending all that time thinking about what the other person might have to say about it usually results in imaginary arguments in your own head that make the actual conversation so much less productive. 

And definitely don't hint at something huge right before someone is about to do something important. Who the hell can focus on anything when their mind is on the mystery subject? 

Edited February 23, 2022 by ljenkins782

[CountryGirl]

26 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I am really glad I am not the only one on team Kevin regarding Thanksgiving, I hate that the show is trying to act like he's the bad guy in this whole situation. He could have handled it better at first, and bringing in Rebecca's illness was uncalled for, but Madison should have talked to Kevin about what they would do for Thanksgiving, she doesn't get to just decide on her own what the twins are doing for the holidays. Kevin needs to get a lawyer and a custody agreement stat. I get that they don't want to make this acrimonious, but having actual hard and fast agreements on who gets to have the kids when and deciding on who gets what holidays will be better in the long run and will probably cause even less arguments. Kevin so badly wants to be a dad but everyone is acting like Madison takes priority as parents just because she's the mom, which is terribly unfair to Kevin, he has just as much of a right to be with his kids as she does. Madison knows what a big deal Thanksgiving is to Kevin's family, but she wants to keep the kids so that she can hang out with some guy she's been dating for a few months? She cant just call Christmas or Easter? Its her presumption that really bugs me though, she, Kate, and Elijah just seem to assume that she can decide this without it being a conversation with Kevin and that he's ridiculous for not being alright with being told that he cant share his Thanksgiving with his kids without it even being something they talk about. Just get a custody agreement, hammer out the details, and get your own place, don't let Madison call all of the shots, this is better for everyone. I think that a big reason Kevin wont get a place is because he's lonely, but he really needs to buy a place right now. 

Kate's lecture to him at the end really rubbed me the wrong way, the whole "she's raising your kids" thing just speaks to how much Kevin needs to fight for joint custody if even his own sister thinks of Kevin as the backup parent. It really feels like Madison wants to make her own new family with Elijah and the kids while edging Kevin out and Kate wants Kevin to step out of the way and let it happen because she feels guilty about what happened with Sophie and is still a bit disappointed that Kevin didn't marry Madison. I am really not sure about this relationship with Elijah and Madison, they seem to be moving way too fast, its only been a few months and they are already practically living together and planning on spending a major holiday together, I suspect that Madison might be on the rebound and desperate to find a man who is totally devoted to her and is down to start a family ready made. I have liked Elijah alright before, but he really put me off in this episode. His speech at the end made him sound creepy, like he's a former nerd who's super excited to get with the hot chick because she's the hot chick while "getting one over" on the cool guy.

Also, this is a huge pet peeve of mine, I HATE when people start to bring up something uncomfortable or are clearly giving signs of wanting to start something, but when you bring it up they say "I don't want to start this now" or something, that's a million times worse then just saying it! Just tell me so I don't spend a whole day or two guessing what the problem is while stressing out, or don't be obvious that you want to talk about something!

Word to all of the above, including the pet peeve. I hate that - it is such passive-aggressive, manipulative bullshit and it infantilizes the other person because they are practically forced to immediately be on the defensive.

[gonzosgirrl]

Interesting take on the episode from Susan Kelchi Watson  - she actually wrote some of Beth's dialogue. Potentially spoilery thoughts in there so be warned. Link to EW.

[Snapdragon]

I really wish they had done the whole "Beth confronts her old teacher" thing differently.  As everyone has already mentioned, the late night phone call was complete cringe.  What the writers should have done was have there be a fundraising event for the dance school that the students will be performing at.  One of Beth's co-workers walks over to her and Randall to introduce her old dance buddy who's visiting for the weekend and what a surprise, it's Beth's old teacher.  So they're all sitting around chatting for a bit, Beth and the teacher's past gets brought up, Beth makes a cutting remark then excuses herself from the table.  The teacher follows her to ask why she's upset with him, she tells him that she understands she wasn't cut out to be a professional dancer but that he didn't have to just drop her like he did and it hurts that he wasn't more supportive that her dad died.  Teacher apologizes about the dad's death but says that telling a student they've reached their peak is always hard and motions to the student Beth has been working with (Stacey?).  So then the next day, Beth comes to terms with the fact that despite her passion, Stacey isn't going to make it as a ballerina only instead of just pushing her to the side as her teacher did, Beth does a better job of letting her down and maybe even suggests some ways Stacey could still be involved in dance (teaching, switching over to another form of dance, being a choreographer, etc) and in the fast forward, we see Stacey doing just that (and not just her, Beth's student board could have been full of pictures of her students doing various things: some professional ballerinas, some in other professions.  The point being that whether they became successful dancers or not, Beth supported them in a way that they still send pictures and keep her updated about their life).  So now Beth is at peace about her crappy dance experience as a teenager because now she's figured out a better way to transition kids who love dance but won't make it as professional ballet dancers, thus ensuring that what happened to her won't happen to them. 

As for Elijah, I know the show won't go there because it's way too dark, but I get major pedo vibes from him.  I mean, Madison is basically a dream for a child molester.  She's a single mom with low self-esteem who's so desperate for someone to love her that she's letting a man she's only known for a few months spend unlimited time around her kids, including holidays.  Just hell to the no.  And Kevin should totally get the kids for Thanksgiving.  As others have said, get that custody agreement drawn up, stat!  

[suzeecat]

Instead of "FINAL" Season, they should be referring to this as the "FILLER" Season.  I think that if I were to skip this season and just watch the very last episode that I would have the same experience than if I were to watch every episode. 

What I got from the ET interview referenced above is that TIU offered the leads a chance to either write, direct or produce an episode in order to pad their resume post-series.  How nice, but the end result was robbing the show's loyal viewers of our entertainment.  This season so far just keeps getting more and more disappointing and frustrating.  Hopefully they will redeem themselves in my eyes by giving us "The mother of all episodes" as promised WRT the Thanksgiving ep. 

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, madmax said:

If Kevin's waiting for the cabin to be built, fine.  But rent something in the mean time and get out of Toby & Kate's.

The cabin is in Pennsylvania. Kevin needs a home base in Los Angeles since that's where he, Madison, and the twins spend the majority of their time. The cabin is just a vacation home.

4 minutes ago, suzeecat said:

What I got from the ET interview referenced above is that TIU offered the leads a chance to either write, direct or produce an episode in order to pad their resume post-series.  How nice, but the end result was robbing the show's loyal viewers of our entertainment.

I haven't read the article, but if that's what it really said then I would be really insulted if I were one of the main cast. Someone who's been on a popular prime time network drama for six seasons doesn't need to have their resume padded with vanity credits.

Edited February 23, 2022 by chocolatine

[suzeecat]

13 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

I haven't read the article, but if that's what it really said then I would be really insulted if I were one of the main cast. Someone who's been on a popular prime time network drama for six seasons doesn't need to have their resume padded with vanity credits.

So sorry, I assumed the above-referenced article was the same EW one that I read this morning, but it was not.  Here's a link to an interview with Susan Kelechi Watson where she explains how she decided to participate in the writing of this episode:

https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-susan-kelechi-watson-eboni-freeman-little-island-girl/?did=743628-20220223&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=022322&cid=743628&mid=80399926675

Specifically:

Dan offered every cast member a chance to take charge behind the scenes, and most chose to direct. You and Chrissy elected to write an episode. Why did you choose this path?

WATSON: I chose that path because I felt it was the most organic of the direction I'm moving in. Especially post-This Is Us. I've already written a script, and writing has been a part of my journey since I was in elementary school. And also, the opportunity to produce on the show was really something that lines up with everything I'm doing outside of the show as well. So it just felt like the best fit for me. I was really thinking that I would direct, but I was going to direct more to just have the experience of directing. It's not something that I necessarily feel like I want to do in the future. But writing is something that I definitely am going to be doing, and I have been doing.

[ljenkins782]

17 minutes ago, suzeecat said:

So sorry, I assumed the above-referenced article was the same EW one that I read this morning, but it was not.  Here's a link to an interview with Susan Kelechi Watson where she explains how she decided to participate in the writing of this episode:

https://ew.com/tv/this-is-us-susan-kelechi-watson-eboni-freeman-little-island-girl/?did=743628-20220223&utm_campaign=ewk-tv_newsletter&utm_source=ew.com&utm_medium=email&utm_content=022322&cid=743628&mid=80399926675

Specifically:

Dan offered every cast member a chance to take charge behind the scenes, and most chose to direct. You and Chrissy elected to write an episode. Why did you choose this path?

WATSON: I chose that path because I felt it was the most organic of the direction I'm moving in. Especially post-This Is Us. I've already written a script, and writing has been a part of my journey since I was in elementary school. And also, the opportunity to produce on the show was really something that lines up with everything I'm doing outside of the show as well. So it just felt like the best fit for me. I was really thinking that I would direct, but I was going to direct more to just have the experience of directing. It's not something that I necessarily feel like I want to do in the future. But writing is something that I definitely am going to be doing, and I have been doing.

Well, based on that crap episode, maybe she should stick to acting instead. It's even odder to me that she's the one who wrote the episode that was, IMO, Beth's worst showing of the whole series. And the article linked a few posts earlier confirms that she felt it was an episode of empowerment and I just can't agree. Dumping your personal baggage on a person from your past who didn't actively harm you, but who just wasn't the person you wanted them to be in that moment, that's not empowerment.

Also, was this episode shown out of order or did they just forget that Deja had thrown down an enormous gauntlet in the previous episode? I know this show likes to skip around and focus on various things, but this was a pressing, imminent challenge and not a hint of fall out??

[PepSinger]

I don’t see anything wrong with Dan Fogelman offering his cast the opportunity to work behind the scenes on an episode. He’s not the first show runner to do it, and he certainly won’t be the last. However, two things 1) there’s a difference between writing and directing on a television series and 2) there’s a difference between writing and having input into a storyline on a TV series. On a TV series, if someone does a shit job at directing, it’s probably going to be forgotten fairly fast. If someone does a good job directing, then that person will stick out (in a good way) and may end up directing more episodes on the series. When it comes to writing, though, that can’t be forgotten in the next episode. You can’t pretend as if Beth never had that conversation with her former teacher; it’s a part of the character’s history. That has a lasting impact when it’s not done well. I’m all for actors having input into their storylines, but when it comes to actually putting pen to paper, you really need to know what you are doing.

[Rammchick]

I have to admit, I was really disappointed by Beth's phone call.  THAT was the reason she stopped dancing?!  As some others here have said, I thought for sure he had sexually molested her.  I admit, I see things through that lens because that happened to me with my major professor when I was in graduate school, and I couldn't finish my Ph.D. (I finally did, some time later, at another school).  Granted, everyone's trauma is different, and clearly she looked up to her teacher as a father figure, as I did with mine.  I see the appeal of reaching out to him (my professor died so that avenue wasn't open to me), but it did sound kind of lame to blame him when he was really only doing his job.  Clearly, their relationship meant more to her on a personal level than it did to him.  

[LexieLily]

49 minutes ago, ljenkins782 said:

Well, based on that crap episode, maybe she should stick to acting instead. It's even odder to me that she's the one who wrote the episode that was, IMO, Beth's worst showing of the whole series. And the article linked a few posts earlier confirms that she felt it was an episode of empowerment and I just can't agree. Dumping your personal baggage on a person from your past who didn't actively harm you, but who just wasn't the person you wanted them to be in that moment, that's not empowerment.

I did enjoy it, though, when we cut back to Goran Visnjic's side of the call and you could see the thought bubble over his head like 'Wait until I tell my wife about this later, she'll get a laugh out of it.'

[Shermie]

Quote

Kevin's dying mother is 100% a priority over Madison's new boyfriend feeling lonely.

To be fair, having Alzheimer’s is not dying. Someone can live for decades after being diagnosed, unfortunately. It’s kind of a living hell, for them and their loved ones, especially when diagnosed relatively young, like Rebecca.

Quote

why is Rebecca still allowed to cook poultry?

Please. Cooking a big turkey is the easiest thing; it’s only on TV that it becomes a Big Drama. You know, the turkey has been in the oven for HOURS and it’s still frozen, while the side dishes are already on the dining room table getting cold. Typical TV nonsense.

Quote

Or Kevin and Madison can each take one kid.  Switch for Christmas. 🤣

And she can move to England with her twin and they won’t tell the twins about the other’s existence so they can start new lives. Until one year at summer camp…

Quote

in four-to-five years from now Kate is about to get married to Phillip. How we are supposed to get from Kate and Toby's inevitable divorce to dating Phillip, who knows?

Regardless of how one feels about this plot line, I think a marriage breaking up and one partner remarrying in a 4-5 year timespan is not unrealistic.

I agree with everyone who said Kevin needs to get his own house and hire a nanny. He’s a 40-year-old man with tons of money, not a dumb teenage boy. I mean, Malik has his fatherhood shit together better than Kevin does. However, I suspect it’s like many have suggested - Kevin doesn’t want to live on his own. And maybe Kate doesn’t want him to move out.

[ams1001]

16 hours ago, Manda317 said:

She can even do Thanksgiving on a different day if she wants to build a tradition for that specific holiday. They really do need to get a custody agreement. 

And it's not like the kids are going to remember this Thanksgiving. They have plenty of time to build traditions for the kids while Rebecca doesn't have much time to share them.

[Arcadiasw]

1 hour ago, ljenkins782 said:

Well, based on that crap episode, maybe she should stick to acting instead. It's even odder to me that she's the one who wrote the episode that was, IMO, Beth's worst showing of the whole series. And the article linked a few posts earlier confirms that she felt it was an episode of empowerment and I just can't agree. Dumping your personal baggage on a person from your past who didn't actively harm you, but who just wasn't the person you wanted them to be in that moment, that's not empowerment.

Also, was this episode shown out of order or did they just forget that Deja had thrown down an enormous gauntlet in the previous episode? I know this show likes to skip around and focus on various things, but this was a pressing, imminent challenge and not a hint of fall out??

Either she's projecting something of her past on Beth or trying to get an Emmy reel. Not a good idea either way. 

[Ohiopirate02]

8 minutes ago, ams1001 said:

And it's not like the kids are going to remember this Thanksgiving. They have plenty of time to build traditions for the kids while Rebecca doesn't have much time to share them.

First holidays are always more about the parents than the kids.  Kevin can wait for the twins second Thanksgiving when they are actually eating real food.  Right now all the can manage are the soft foods--sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, the glorious cranberry sauce from a can, and pumpkin pie.  Kevin should wait until the next year when little Nicky and/or Frannie can go to town on a turkey leg.  

[Cosmocrush]

18 hours ago, Jeddah said:

But what was special about Beth in that moment? That she went out on stage and made it all about herself? That this was a showcase for people trying to get professional jobs, and Beth was willing to ruin their chances by just sitting center stage and not letting anyone else dance?

Beth wasn't just going to discard this young woman because she was struggling like her former teacher did.   She put the dancer above the show.    And as a result she had lots of success with lots of students as we saw in the last scene into the future.  I didn't see it as Beth making it about her but going out of the lines to make it about this one dancer; or maybe it was about her in that she made sure this girl didn't quit with a feeling of failure that would haunt her for 20 years. 

[meep.meep]

Madison is breast feeding twins.  That gives her an extra vote in my opinion.  Of course she and Kevin should have actually talked about their holiday plans, but it's TV so whacky hijinks due to miscommunication must occur.

The Beth plot was so dreadful it should be referred to as Voldemort.

I actually liked the comparison of Madison's and Rebecca's new romances.  And it looks like we're starting to get a little of the Miguel-Rebecca story that many have wanted since the beginning of the show.

I don't get the Elijah creepy vibe.  I always love when an outsider out-Pearsons one of the Pearsons and that's just what he did.

[Haleth]

Why does Sophie call her MIL Mrs Pearson?

[madmax]

1 hour ago, Shermie said:

However, I suspect it’s like many have suggested - Kevin doesn’t want to live on his own. And maybe Kate doesn’t want him to move out.

I totally agree.  Kate did throw that line in there about how Kevin being there and her marriage, but if he left, she would have no help with the kids.  Plus, the two of them are so co-dependent, it's ridiculous.

2 hours ago, chocolatine said:

The cabin is in Pennsylvania. Kevin needs a home base in Los Angeles since that's where he, Madison, and the twins spend the majority of their time. The cabin is just a vacation home.

I was basing my post on what @greekmom said above.  If that's what he's waiting for, then he's got a long wait, so he needs to rent something ASAP.  If not, my point still stands.  Call a realtor, Kev.

[Pattycake2]

Did Madison ever truly love Kevin? I don’t recall her telling Kevin on their wedding day “I love you with all my heart, but this won’t work if you don’t truly love me.”  Instead, she said that she deserves someone who loves her and it looks like Elijah may love her, but does Madison love him?  Really love him? It’s a two way street, Madison.  Yes, this episode was not good.  This season has had some eye rollers.

[Crs97]

7 hours ago, PepSinger said:

While I disagree with your UO, I am in total agreement that if Toby isn’t looking for other work closer to LA as he promised, then he is in the wrong, too.

I think it depends on how long he’s been at this job.  Kate had to know he couldn’t job switch quickly.  He needed to prove himself there for a little while before looking again.

[JKL845]

Really liked college Beth and Randall and present day Randall was great too in this episode. Little girl Beth was so adorable. Agree with everyone that Beth's phone call at the end was not done well at all.  I could see Sophie being upset with Kate at that time because she was just devastated by her husband and then found out her best friend knew. It was too raw still to think rationally. I do think it strained the relationship between Kate and Sophie, so that they aren't best friends, but they do seem to still keep in touch. I liked seeing them refer to each other as Thelma and Louise again. 

As for Madison and Elijah moving too fast, seems very Madison. Actually slow for her, shouldn't she be pregnant with triplets by him already?! Elijah, she is not out of your league. You two are perfect for each other. Both average looking, dopey nerds who really enjoy being together. I think they are together forever or else they wouldn't have bothered using him this much.

[Jeddah]

1 hour ago, Cosmocrush said:

Beth wasn't just going to discard this young woman because she was struggling like her former teacher did.   She put the dancer above the show.    And as a result she had lots of success with lots of students as we saw in the last scene into the future.  I didn't see it as Beth making it about her but going out of the lines to make it about this one dancer; or maybe it was about her in that she made sure this girl didn't quit with a feeling of failure that would haunt her for 20 years. 

What about all the other dancers waiting for their chance backstage? Shouldn’t they count for something? No, only Beth’s favorite student matters. This was a showcase where professional companies were looking to hire people. And Beth was willing to wait on stage until everyone got bored and left. I guess none of those dancers deserve jobs because Beth wants to sit in the middle of the stage to show how much she cares.

[Chatty Cake]

11 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Are we supposed to be marrying people that don’t love us??

He loved her enough that they could have had something decent. They did have something decent. Instead she’s going to be bringing randoms into the kids lives.

Kevin should hire a hot shot lawyer. They could throw focus on Madison’s eating disorder and say shes throwing up and neglected the kids. She could be with her dork all the time and visit the kids on the weekends. 

[Jax7917]

2 hours ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

First holidays are always more about the parents than the kids.  Kevin can wait for the twins second Thanksgiving when they are actually eating real food.  Right now all the can manage are the soft foods--sweet potatoes, mashed potatoes, the glorious cranberry sauce from a can, and pumpkin pie.  Kevin should wait until the next year when little Nicky and/or Frannie can go to town on a turkey leg.  

I don’t think the point is what kind of food the kids will be eating . The point is Rebecca has an incurable disease that is going to progress quickly and Kevin wants to spend Thanksgiving with Rebecca and his kids since it’ll likely be the first and last thanksgiving that she’ll be able to cognitively be there for . 

[Jodithgrace]

I may not know much about the fine arts, but I do know my cliches. It seems to me that after you graduate from the all inclusive dance school, where you receive tons of encouragement and everybody gets to be in the recitals, and you get serious enough to have a real teacher or coach, it's pretty much no more Mr. Nice guy. Teachers of serious students can be really brutal. According to the movies, this applies to piano teachers, acting coaches, dance teachers, athletics, etc. 

For real life, look at the ROC Olympic skating coach, and her reaction to Kamila's free skate. Not a kind word, no hugs. And she turns out gold medalists like they were on an assembly line. 

If Beth gave up, and started performing poorly after her father died, that's on her. Somebody a little more driven would just have used that to make her stronger. I'm not judging Beth, that's just the cliche. But it wasn't her teacher's fault, even if he was unsympathetic.

I'll bet that teacher gets a few phone calls or letters every year from former students. and I'll bet some of them say the equivalent of, "You know, you were a real bastard, but thanks to you I got into the NY City Ballet! So thank you." And of course, some are from people like Beth.