S06.E06: Our Little Island Girl: Part 2

[ljenkins782]

21 minutes ago, Jeddah said:

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Beth wasn't just going to discard this young woman because she was struggling like her former teacher did.   She put the dancer above the show.    And as a result she had lots of success with lots of students as we saw in the last scene into the future.  I didn't see it as Beth making it about her but going out of the lines to make it about this one dancer; or maybe it was about her in that she made sure this girl didn't quit with a feeling of failure that would haunt her for 20 years. 

What about all the other dancers waiting for their chance backstage? Shouldn’t they count for something? No, only Beth’s favorite student matters. This was a showcase where professional companies were looking to hire people. And Beth was willing to wait on stage until everyone got bored and left. I guess none of those dancers deserve jobs because Beth wants to sit in the middle of the stage to show how much she cares.

It was so misguided all around. Beth sitting on the stage with her only drew more attention to the fall. And what was Beth going to do, follow this girl through her career to "be there" for her? Her dance instructor was right, it wasn't his job to coddle her and the dance world is very cutthroat, so I don't know that Beth's approach would really result in all of that success in the real world.

If she was in another field, like social work, I could see a storyline like this working. Getting through to a troubled child or being there for an abandoned child, this approach would work. But it didn't make real world sense in the context of dance and came across as frivolous. As Beth herself can attest, a person can lose their childhood dream job and still have success in life. Beth has a loving (if impulsive) husband, children, she's had success in her career, etc, so while she can be sad about the road not taken or think her former instructor was cold or insensitive, it didn't destroy her life.

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Did Madison ever truly love Kevin? I don’t recall her telling Kevin on their wedding day “I love you with all my heart, but this won’t work if you don’t truly love me.”  Instead, she said that she deserves someone who loves her and it looks like Elijah may love her, but does Madison love him?  Really love him? It’s a two way street, Madison.  Yes, this episode was not good.  This season has had some eye rollers.

Given Madison's history and self esteem issues, it honestly doesn't ring true to me that she'd throw over a marriage to someone who is a nice guy, rich, hot, and the father of her twins. Girls like Madison aren't usually swimming in prospects (insecurity and neuroses tend to be a turn off) and I have to think a bird in the hand was worth 2 in the bush. Especially since I don't think Madison will ever really feel secure or worthy of anyone's love, so whether it's Kevin who doesn't love her or someone else she's unsure of is kind of immaterial. 

So her whole "I'm going to hold out for true love even though I'm now a single mother of twins" stand just doesn't seem realistic.

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To be fair, having Alzheimer’s is not dying. Someone can live for decades after being diagnosed, unfortunately. It’s kind of a living hell, for them and their loved ones, especially when diagnosed relatively young, like Rebecca.

It's not literal death but when the decline is severe enough, it's the same sense of loss because the person you knew is gone. The fact that the body continues to live doesn't negate the fact that it's impossible to have a relationship with someone who isn't aware of who they are anymore. 

And you just can't predict how fast or slow it will go, so I still think seeing Rebecca over new boyfriend's family was a better choice, but either way, they should've discussed it.

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While I disagree with your UO, I am in total agreement that if Toby isn’t looking for other work closer to LA as he promised, then he is in the wrong, too.

I think it depends on how long he’s been at this job.  Kate had to know he couldn’t job switch quickly.  He needed to prove himself there for a little while before looking again.

 

They've got 2 kids, one with special needs, living in LA, so he's going to need to pull a significant salary, which isn't that easy to find and Kate isn't willing to do much compromising and IS willing to do a lot of complaining, so toby's in a tough spot.

[Trillian]

2 hours ago, Haleth said:

Why does Sophie call her MIL Mrs Pearson?

I loved that little touch!  The Big Three may be the last generation to address their in-laws as Mr and Mrs (Ms/Dr/Rev/Your Honour). I thought it also highlighted how very young they were, that Mrs Kevin Pearson (should she choose to use that appellation) addressed Mrs Jack Pearson by title. 
 

Some of us old folk would never dream of calling a parent-in-law by first name, consider mom or dad to be too familiar (I have my own parents, thank you); Mother Pearson sounds like a religious title, and resort to Mr and Mrs - or, the ever-popular, Ummh.  

[PRgal]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

Beth is so often the voice of reason that she can lull you into a false sense of security, but then you get things like that cringy call to her old dance teacher and your reminded that Beth is a total Pearson. Yes, please go ahead and call your teacher who you haven't seen in twenty years to tell him how much he sucks and ruined her dreams and that your a little island girl in the middle of the night at his office, like a normal person. I wanted to see Goran Visnjic on the other side of the call, starring in bafflement as he ponders whether or not this is a drunk dial and why they're talking about islands now. I am not even so sure what he did was so horrible, yes he should have reached out when her dad died and been more understanding, but he was her teacher, not her therapist, at a very prestigious school, its not his job to hold her hand. If Beth really was destined to become the worlds greatest ballerina, she wouldn't have given up because her one teacher stopped giving her all of his attention.

Also, if her favorite students dad is a hot shot lawyer, why was she even in a scholarship program? Shouldn't her spot have gone to a worthy students from a lower income family?

Probably because the girl has some sob story because her parents refuse to pay for dance.  Mom and dad would probably ONLY pay for things that would help her get into a good school to do pre-law and then go to law school.   

[Empress1]

4 hours ago, Shermie said:

Regardless of how one feels about this plot line, I think a marriage breaking up and one partner remarrying in a 4-5 year timespan is not unrealistic.

Agreed, particularly when the second spouse is someone Kate already knows. (I doubt Rebecca and Miguel waited that long to get married once they started thinking of each other That Way. It's not like they needed time to get to know each other.)

1 hour ago, Chatty Cake said:

Kevin should hire a hot shot lawyer. They could throw focus on Madison’s eating disorder and say shes throwing up and neglected the kids.

This is a) awful; b) untrue and c) totally out of character for Kevin. I've been saying for the whole season that they should both get lawyers and put together a mutually agreeable custody agreement (and Kevin should get a damn place to live already - said it before, say it again: live somewhere, my guy) but I don't think he would ever go this route with Madison. At the core, Kevin is a nice guy who wants to be liked, and this salt-the-earth tactic is not his way. And I've said many times that I don't like Madison but she doesn't deserve that. She's not an unfit mother.

3 hours ago, Pattycake2 said:

Did Madison ever truly love Kevin? I don’t recall her telling Kevin on their wedding day “I love you with all my heart, but this won’t work if you don’t truly love me.”  Instead, she said that she deserves someone who loves her and it looks like Elijah may love her, but does Madison love him?  Really love him? It’s a two way street, Madison.  Yes, this episode was not good.  This season has had some eye rollers.

I am fairly sure she told him that she'd fallen in love with him. I also think that was the first time either of them had said that. I don't think I'd marry someone I hadn't exchanged "I love yous" with.

I cracked up when Beth requested a big Pearson speech and then was like "never mind, I gotta go to the bathroom." And I know I say this all the time but I think Susan Kelechi Watson is so beautiful. (When she and Melanie Liburd, who plays Zoe, were on screen together it was like ... WHOA.)

I put all the blame on the Kevin/Sophie/Kate situation on Kevin. The cheating was wrong; him putting Kate in the middle like that was wrong.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Empress1

[KittyQ]

13 hours ago, greekmom said:

The phone call was cringe.  Yes, the teacher didn't coddle Beth but a little bit of human decency would have been appreciated as she was his favourite student.  I almost thought he was going to tell her that her mother told him to drop her.

I had the same thought about Beth's mom! It seems as though it would have been in character for her.

I didn't care for Beth's phone call to the former teacher. As a young person, you may think that your teachers care more for you personally, but as an adult, you should understand that they may have only had a professional interest in you as a student. And really, that's not bad. A student may have one special teacher among a few, but a teacher has many more students and can't feel deeply about them all (or perhaps any of them). I agree with those who said that Beth should have worked through this with her therapist or friends or husband. Calling the guy late in the evening to tell him how he failed her seemed pathetic. But I guess she got it off her chest and was able to help her student rise above what seemed like a sure failure to succeed later, so I guess it was worth it.

As an aside, it did seem that the show missed a chance to indicate how different people (generations, genders, countries of origin, etc.) may approach students' challenges. It made it look as though Beth's way was the only way. 

[BAForever]

4 hours ago, Shermie said:

And she can move to England with her twin and they won’t tell the twins about the other’s existence so they can start new lives. Until one year at summer camp…

 

Oh Shermie, lol'ed at this line until I thought of Natasha Richardson. 😔

[Snapdragon]

3 hours ago, Haleth said:

Why does Sophie call her MIL Mrs Pearson?

Probably because she's known her since she was a child and that's what she called her growing up.  I still refer to the parents of my childhood friends as Mr. and Mrs. and the same goes for any adults I knew growing up.  The summer after my freshman year of college, I said "hi" to my parents' next door as I was walking into the house and he said, "You're an adult now.  You can call me by my first name" and internally I was, "Nope.  That's weird.  Not gonna do it."  

 

[kili]

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Re: Kate/Sophia and Kate/Madison:  Family, especially for the Pearsons, comes first.  So Kate was right not sharing Kevin's secret with Sophia and Sophia should have realized that years ago.  Although I do think they interacted prior to this, but I might be mistaken.

 Sophie and Kate both went to the taping of The Manny when Kevin came back for a special episode. Kevin was upset because the writer changed the script to humiliate him (he had him dress up in a diaper as a way to try to find the missing baby) and Sophie convinced him to just do the scene. That was the episode when the family finally came to watch the tapings, but only Miguel, Annie, Tess and Sophie stayed.

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For real life, look at the ROC Olympic skating coach, and her reaction to Kamila's free skate. Not a kind word, no hugs. And she turns out gold medalists like they were on an assembly line. 

It's partly her coaching style and probably partly the drugs they get fed so they can be overtrained and washed up by the time they hit 20. That's why she needs the assembly line. Brian Orser is another coach with a lot of success who is supposed to be more like Beth. The truth is that students don't have all the same needs. Some students do better under a harsh coach or tutor who push them while others do better in a more supportive environment. 

Beth needed more support and her coach was not supportive. If Beth's father had been still alive, he may have supported her to find a new coach that worked better with her (after her current coaching situation faltered), but Beth's mother had no interest in assisting or supporting her daughter in the sport (and Beth lost her will). Beth was wrong to lay the blame on her coach. He is the coach he is and he just wasn't right for her. I think Beth's supportive style will probably have more success (measured in many different ways), though because everybody needs some support sooner or later and can't always get it at home.

 

[txhorns79]

28 minutes ago, Snapdragon said:

Probably because she's known her since she was a child and that's what she called her growing up.  I still refer to the parents of my childhood friends as Mr. and Mrs. and the same goes for any adults I knew growing up.  The summer after my freshman year of college, I said "hi" to my parents' next door as I was walking into the house and he said, "You're an adult now.  You can call me by my first name" and internally I was, "Nope.  That's weird.  Not gonna do it."  

Me too.  I'm not in their peer group, and I think a little formality is nice and respectful.

 

1 minute ago, kili said:

I think Beth's supportive style will probably have more success (measured in many different ways), though because everybody needs some support sooner or later and can't always get it at home.

I was confused about Beth's role.  She's handling admissions, not acting as an instructor, right?  When Beth's favorite fell and Beth ran out on stage, where was the actual instructor?   

[ams1001]

2 hours ago, Trillian said:

Some of us old folk would never dream of calling a parent-in-law by first name, consider mom or dad to be too familiar (I have my own parents, thank you); Mother Pearson sounds like a religious title, and resort to Mr and Mrs - or, the ever-popular, Ummh.  

My mom (who was born the same year as Jack) called my dad's parents mom and dad...

I was thinking it was a holdover from having known her as "Mrs. Pearson" since she was a little girl.

[Cosmocrush]

4 hours ago, Jeddah said:

What about all the other dancers waiting for their chance backstage? Shouldn’t they count for something? No, only Beth’s favorite student matters. This was a showcase where professional companies were looking to hire people. And Beth was willing to wait on stage until everyone got bored and left. I guess none of those dancers deserve jobs because Beth wants to sit in the middle of the stage to show how much she cares.

Fair point. 

I linked Beth's reaction to her fav dancer in contrast to the way she felt she was treated at that age; clearly something she never really got over.  She wanted to make sure she wasn't the adult that did that to her fav dancer. 

[Cosmocrush]

21 hours ago, Shermie said:

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Or Kevin and Madison can each take one kid.  Switch for Christmas. 🤣

And she can move to England with her twin and they won’t tell the twins about the other’s existence so they can start new lives. Until one year at summer camp…

Hahaha!  Good one @Shermie  😁

Edited February 24, 2022 by Cosmocrush

[GatorDeb]

FINALLY a last season ep that felt like a last season ep. 

[circumvent]

I liked the episode but the dance scene with the girl falling was ridiculous. Dancers fall, they miss steps, it happens often. But dancers don't stop and cry on stage, they get up and pick up where the music is. The music does't stop either. It is ridiculous that to make a point of how great Beth is they had to go for a completely unacceptable scenario in the ballet world.

Other than that, I liked the episode. 

[Blakeston]

Madison has been in the wrong a bunch of times throughout the series (especially in this episode):

- Unilaterally deciding that the twins will miss the one holiday celebration that actually matters to Kevin, Rebecca's fading mind be damned

- Intentionally humiliating the nude model at her bachelorette party

- Repeatedly telling a group full of morbidly obese people how fat she feels - as opposed to finding a group specifically for anorexia

But I don't recall the show ever acknowledging that she's been wrong about anything. (Kate yelled at her for coming to the meetings, but that was presented as Kate being rude, and not appreciating how difficult Madison's life is.)

Madison is always presented as this wise truth-teller who deserves nothing but the best, and is so amazing, despite having it so hard. And I don't think it's a coincidence that the character being played by the show creator's wife is being depicted that way.

Please, show runners, stop casting your family members.

[smartymarty]

19 hours ago, JKL845 said:

 I could see Sophie being upset with Kate at that time because she was just devastated by her husband and then found out her best friend knew. It was too raw still to think rationally. I do think it strained the relationship between Kate and Sophie, so that they aren't best friends, but they do seem to still keep in touch. I liked seeing them refer to each other as Thelma and Louise again.

Um, no, they didn't still keep in touch. That was why Sophie's response to the text was to acknowledge that she should not have been angry at Kate for keeping Kevin's secret.

I do wish, though, that Kate had said to Sophie at the time that "It wasn't my secret to tell." It wasn't Kate's fault that Kevin told her. But it was for Kevin to work things out with Sophie. Ditto with the Thanksgiving plot. Kate should have immediately told Sophie that "you know you can't make this decision without consulting Kevin, right? And soon, because he'll want the kids with him too."

18 hours ago, Jodithgrace said:

If Beth gave up, and started performing poorly after her father died, that's on her. Somebody a little more driven would just have used that to make her stronger. I'm not judging Beth, that's just the cliche. But it wasn't her teacher's fault, even if he was unsympathetic.

But Beth's father told her she was "specccccial"!  I cringed every time they showed that scene on the beach. "Special to me," or "unique," but not special to the world. That just sets the kid up for a crash.

18 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

It was so misguided all around. Beth sitting on the stage with her only drew more attention to the fall. And what was Beth going to do, follow this girl through her career to "be there" for her? Her dance instructor was right, it wasn't his job to coddle her and the dance world is very cutthroat, so I don't know that Beth's approach would really result in all of that success in the real world.

 

9 hours ago, circumvent said:

I liked the episode but the dance scene with the girl falling was ridiculous. Dancers fall, they miss steps, it happens often. But dancers don't stop and cry on stage, they get up and pick up where the music is. The music doesn't stop either. It is ridiculous that to make a point of how great Beth is they had to go for a completely unacceptable scenario in the ballet world.

Other than that, I liked the episode. 

I've been to ballets where dancers have fallen. They get right back up. All the students should have been taught that if they made a mistake, to keep on going -- especially knowing that this particular student was prone to falling! The music will not stop, you will not blubber on the stage. It was very unrealistic to have this girl (who yes, did not have the body type for ballet) make it in a company. I loved Beth being so supportive, but she should have been supportive with the girl off stage while the next dancer danced. The girl could have tried again after.

Regarding Kevin and Madison, while Madison jumped the gun by assuming she could have the kids for Thanksgiving, so did Kevin. The conversation started because Kevin wanted to forward proposed flights to Madison. So they both were in the wrong. How they could not have hashed this out yet is ridiculous. It doesn't even matter that they're not married -- married couples face this when deciding which family to spend each holiday with (with battles over Baby's First Christmas).

As for Kevin wanting the kids in PA b/c of Rebecca, I'd be understanding if Rebecca lived, say, in PA. But she's right therein Los Angeles. She can see the kids any time. I realize it's more about the parents wanting the babies there on a holiday, but "Mom has Alzhiemer's" just doesn't do it for me. To be really mean, one could argue that Rebecca might not even remember two weeks later that the twins were there. (My MIL mentioned she hadn't seen her daughter in a long time two days after her other daughters flew her to that daughter's house for a long weekend.) So this isn't even about Rebecca, it's about Kevin and fammmmmily.

And Toby. I'm thrilled he has such a great job. I don't think he promised to find something in L.A., but that he hoped that once he was established with this company, he'd be able to work from L.A. And he was working from home. Gee, that's not good enough? And don't give me that Kate has her support system in L.A. She can't have Rebecca babysit anymore, and Kevin has his own kids. You know what people who don't live near family do? They hire babysitters (you know, like Kate did for that date night that didn't happen). No reason to stay in L.A. (okay, except maybe to be near Rebecca before her full decline).

Edited February 24, 2022 by smartymarty
Because Sophie and Madison are not the same person.

[Cosmocrush]

29 minutes ago, smartymarty said:

No reason to stay in L.A. (okay, except maybe to be near Rebecca before her full decline).

Well and her job which she loves and apparently is good at doing. 

[KittyQ]

One thing that kind of bugged me about Toby's late night business calls - which are the other time zones he's working with? Are these international, because if they are in the U.S. then being in CA he would be more likely to have early morning calls to accommodate the zones east of him. 

Just my opinion, but I did work with people internationally (Australia, India, China, and Japan) and I rarely had to call (or Skype) with them late into the night, and I am also in the Pacific time zone, so the late phone calls could have been mitigated with a little coordination with his business contacts.

[AzraeltheCat]

16 hours ago, Trillian said:

I loved that little touch!  The Big Three may be the last generation to address their in-laws as Mr and Mrs (Ms/Dr/Rev/Your Honour). I thought it also highlighted how very young they were, that Mrs Kevin Pearson (should she choose to use that appellation) addressed Mrs Jack Pearson by title. 
 

Some of us old folk would never dream of calling a parent-in-law by first name, consider mom or dad to be too familiar (I have my own parents, thank you); Mother Pearson sounds like a religious title, and resort to Mr and Mrs - or, the ever-popular, Ummh.  

hmm, I'm a lot older that the Big Three and NO ONE I know calls an in-law Mr. or Mrs. Whoever.  It's usually a first name; occasionally a nickname or the person's "grandparent" name (like "Mimi" or whatever.)  Though, I can totally see not calling an in-law "mom" or other parental designation, esp if you haven't been married long. And definitely agree that Mother Pearson sounds like a nun! 

Edited February 24, 2022 by AzraeltheCat

[JKL845]

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Um, no, they didn't still keep in touch. That was why Sophie's response to the text was to acknowledge that she should not have been angry at Kate for keeping Kevin's secret.

 

I

Um, yes they did. Kate has Sophie's new phone number. They just never addressed the situation before probably. 

You keep saying Sophie when it's Madison. 

[smartymarty]

56 minutes ago, AzraeltheCat said:

The Big Three may be the last generation to address their in-laws as Mr and Mrs (Ms/Dr/Rev/Your Honour).

Wondering why you think this is a generational thing. What happened culturally for the shift? Was it the parents or the bride/grooms that changed (i.e. parent saying "please call me Rita")? I ask because my older SIL calls my mother by her first name, but I called my inlaws mom and dad. We were both in our 30s when we married, and the parents were the same generation.

[Blakeston]

Sophie should never have cut Kate out of her life for the way she handled things with Kevin. Kate handled things exactly the right way - telling Kevin that he needs to tell Sophie, without blabbing herself.

I think Sophie would probably have recognized that pretty quickly if she knew the full story. It's possible that she never let Kate tell it, or that Kate refused to engage after Sophie walked out.

Communication is not something these characters are good at.

Edited February 24, 2022 by Blakeston

[CountryGirl]

13 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Sophie should never have cut Kate out of her life for the way she handled things with Kevin. Kate handled things exactly the right way - telling Kevin that he needs to tell Sophie, without blabbing herself.

I think Sophie would probably have recognized that pretty quickly if she knew the full story. It's possible that she never let Kate tell it, or that Kate refused to engage after Sophie walked out.

Communication is not something these characters are good at.

It would have been one thing if Kate had kept it a secret for months or years (especially if it were a long-term affair vs ONS), but she had literally found out a few hours or maybe a day, at most, before Kevin confessed. The primary onus was on Kevin to tell her. 

[chocolatine]

2 hours ago, KittyQ said:

One thing that kind of bugged me about Toby's late night business calls - which are the other time zones he's working with? Are these international, because if they are in the U.S. then being in CA he would be more likely to have early morning calls to accommodate the zones east of him. 

Just my opinion, but I did work with people internationally (Australia, India, China, and Japan) and I rarely had to call (or Skype) with them late into the night, and I am also in the Pacific time zone, so the late phone calls could have been mitigated with a little coordination with his business contacts.

IIRC Toby said it involved multiple time zones, so possibly US, Europe, and Asia, in which case late night US Pacific time makes sense. That's close to the start of the workday in Europe and the end of the workday in Asia. In my experience doing many such calls in a previous job, it's always the US workers who are expected to inconvenience themselves the most, since other countries tend to have much stronger culture around employee rights and work-life balance.

BTW, did anyone else get the impression that Toby is absolutely loving his job, late hours and all? I think this might be what eventually leads to the demise of the marriage, that his work is negatively affecting the family, but he doesn't want to make any changes.

[himela]

To be honest I don't love parents telling their kids they are special and they'll change the world some day; it gives them tremendous amount of stress to actually try and do that and they get more disappointed than other people when they fail. We are not all meant to be special and change the world. Some of us it's ok to be the simple people who live a simple ordinary life.

[ams1001]

15 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

BTW, did anyone else get the impression that Toby is absolutely loving his job, late hours and all? I think this might be what eventually leads to the demise of the marriage, that his work is negatively affecting the family, but he doesn't want to make any changes.

Maybe he's busy with a business call when Jack gets hurt by the Ominous Green Egg.

[Empress1]

14 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

IRC Toby said it involved multiple time zones, so possibly US, Europe, and Asia, in which case late night US Pacific time makes sense. That's close to the start of the workday in Europe and the end of the workday in Asia. In my experience doing many such calls in a previous job, it's always the US workers who are expected to inconvenience themselves the most, since other countries tend to have much stronger culture around employee rights and work-life balance.

Yeah, I used to work for a company with offices in the UK, east and west coast US, and Asia Pacific and I would do those calls from bed and basically roll over and go to sleep afterward. My boss’s boss, who is American and was living in Singapore, would sometimes volunteer to be on the late night side of things so we could be in the office during standard business hours.

1 hour ago, smartymarty said:

Wondering why you think this is a generational thing. What happened culturally for the shift? Was it the parents or the bride/grooms that changed (i.e. parent saying "please call me Rita")? I ask because my older SIL calls my mother by her first name, but I called my inlaws mom and dad. We were both in our 30s when we married, and the parents were the same generation.

All my married friends call their in-laws by their first names. I’m an older millennial. The exceptions are people with in-laws from other countries; they call their in-laws by terms of respect in the in-law’s native tongues. I think Mom and Dad have fallen out of favor (it would make me uncomfortable); I don’t know anyone around my age who does it. My parents didn’t do it either (first names and my mom’s mom had a nickname and that’s what my dad, and most other people, called her). 

I agree with those who think Sophie calls her Mrs. Pearson because she’s known Rebecca since childhood and that’s what she’s always called her. I think Beth and Toby call her Rebecca.

[Ohiopirate02]

21 minutes ago, chocolatine said:

IIRC Toby said it involved multiple time zones, so possibly US, Europe, and Asia, in which case late night US Pacific time makes sense. That's close to the start of the workday in Europe and the end of the workday in Asia. In my experience doing many such calls in a previous job, it's always the US workers who are expected to inconvenience themselves the most, since other countries tend to have much stronger culture around employee rights and work-life balance.

BTW, did anyone else get the impression that Toby is absolutely loving his job, late hours and all? I think this might be what eventually leads to the demise of the marriage, that his work is negatively affecting the family, but he doesn't want to make any changes.

I am also getting that impression.  He was enjoying himself during that phone call at brunch.  Whatever he is now doing, he does not seem to resent the amount of time the job is taking from him.  

[himela]

On 2/23/2022 at 2:57 PM, PepSinger said:

Are we supposed to be marrying people that don’t love us??

Are we supposed to be having kids with people who don't love us? :P

[himela]

On 2/23/2022 at 10:10 PM, suzeecat said:

Dan offered every cast member a chance to take charge behind the scenes, and most chose to direct. You and Chrissy elected to write an episode. Why did you choose this path?

WATSON: I chose that path because I felt it was the most organic of the direction I'm moving in. Especially post-This Is Us. I've already written a script, and writing has been a part of my journey since I was in elementary school. And also, the opportunity to produce on the show was really something that lines up with everything I'm doing outside of the show as well. So it just felt like the best fit for me. I was really thinking that I would direct, but I was going to direct more to just have the experience of directing. It's not something that I necessarily feel like I want to do in the future. But writing is something that I definitely am going to be doing, and I have been doing.

Oh no. I expect Susan to call all of us who didn't like her writing and tell us off for ruining her dreams since elementary school to become a writer. 🙄

[ljenkins782]

21 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

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BTW, did anyone else get the impression that Toby is absolutely loving his job, late hours and all? I think this might be what eventually leads to the demise of the marriage, that his work is negatively affecting the family, but he doesn't want to make any changes.

I am also getting that impression.  He was enjoying himself during that phone call at brunch.  Whatever he is now doing, he does not seem to resent the amount of time the job is taking from him.  

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No reason to stay in L.A. (okay, except maybe to be near Rebecca before her full decline).

Well and her job which she loves and apparently is good at doing. 

 

The reason I can rarely be on Kate's side is that if it's true that Toby is loving his job and feeling fulfilled, Kate would still prioritize the job that she's loving and feeling fulfilled by, despite the real life factors of salary and full-time vs part-time. 

If the current arrangement isn't working, the choices would be that Kate moves toward Toby's job, thus leaving hers, or Toby moves back and leaves his. And in real life, with 2 children, one of them blind, the choice would come down to whose salary they can actually live on because while fulfillment is important, food and shelter are higher priorities. But in This is Us, Pearson family, Big 3-centric, big-speech land, Kate loving her low paying part time job can somehow be the driver of an entire family's circumstances and Toby's fulfillment be damned because the Pearsons' feelings are somehow stronger than everyone else's or something. 

I'd love it if that's how the breakup (that we already know is going to happen) goes down, if Toby finally realizes how much he supports Kate's choices and preferences and how much she takes it all for granted and lets him. 

Re: Sophie and Kevin: didn't they get back together as adults? Was Kate just not around or what? I know that moment of Sophie walking out wasn't the last contact Kevin and Sophie had, but I can't recall where Kate was or what she was up to during those moments of potential reconciliation.

[ams1001]

43 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I think Mom and Dad have fallen out of favor (it would make me uncomfortable); I don’t know anyone around my age who does it. 

My mom did, but she also was 21 when her own mom died so maybe that was a factor (she and my dad got married a few years after that so she had my dad's mother in her life longer than she had her own). I remember when my grandmother died my dad's sister (who lives several states away) said "thank you for taking care of my mom" and my mother said "I was taking care of my mom." (Her dad died when she was in her mid-30s and he had moved to Florida at some point before that (I was five when he died and I don't remember him at all). I don't know what my dad called him....)

43 minutes ago, Empress1 said:

I agree with those who think Sophie calls her Mrs. Pearson because she’s known Rebecca since childhood and that’s what she’s always called her. I think Beth and Toby call her Rebecca.

Especially since Sophie and Kevin married so young; it probably would have felt especially weird to call her anything else.

[Trillian]

3 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Wondering why you think this is a generational thing. What happened culturally for the shift? Was it the parents or the bride/grooms that changed (i.e. parent saying "please call me Rita")? I ask because my older SIL calls my mother by her first name, but I called my inlaws mom and dad. We were both in our 30s when we married, and the parents were the same generation.

It was my post you quoted (don’t blame @azrealthecat!), and I really didn’t mean to start anything. I agree that Sophie used “Mrs” because she had done so from childhood;  I also think the writers inserted it to emphasize how young she and Kevin still are. But I also think that such formalities are fading in society generally, (at least in my part of the world. - ymmv).  It wasn’t that long ago that no polite person addressed an acquaintance by first name and that it was a sign of closeness and/or affection to be invited to do so.   It’s not universal - some cultures and professions keep closer to the traditional ways - but I do think it’s a real trend. 

[debraran]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

The reason I can rarely be on Kate's side is that if it's true that Toby is loving his job and feeling fulfilled, Kate would still prioritize the job that she's loving and feeling fulfilled by, despite the real life factors of salary and full-time vs part-time. 

If the current arrangement isn't working, the choices would be that Kate moves toward Toby's job, thus leaving hers, or Toby moves back and leaves his. And in real life, with 2 children, one of them blind, the choice would come down to whose salary they can actually live on because while fulfillment is important, food and shelter are higher priorities. But in This is Us, Pearson family, Big 3-centric, big-speech land, Kate loving her low paying part time job can somehow be the driver of an entire family's circumstances and Toby's fulfillment be damned because the Pearsons' feelings are somehow stronger than everyone else's or something. 

I'd love it if that's how the breakup (that we already know is going to happen) goes down, if Toby finally realizes how much he supports Kate's choices and preferences and how much she takes it all for granted and lets him. 

Re: Sophie and Kevin: didn't they get back together as adults? Was Kate just not around or what? I know that moment of Sophie walking out wasn't the last contact Kevin and Sophie had, but I can't recall where Kate was or what she was up to during those moments of potential reconciliation.

I think when V River made some scripts different they changed the fact Kate must have kept in touch with Sophie. When Kevin found her 12 years later she wasnt still mad at Kate but I think to reintroduce her after Kevin freaked and was afraid to talk to her, they let her text Kate. We all know "Thelma and Louise" will not let that be that. Sophie did give in to talk to him back before her Mom's funeral, but I forgot what happened. Kevin told her after all that time in NYC " You were part of me, you were like my arm and when I lost you it was like I lost my arm… It's like I've been walking around without an arm, for over a decade, comma, I really want my arm back…" That was over a decade since they were broke up. I just cant see him with anyone until they talk. They are dragging it out waaaay too long.

 

Edited February 25, 2022 by debraran

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, ljenkins782 said:

The reason I can rarely be on Kate's side is that if it's true that Toby is loving his job and feeling fulfilled, Kate would still prioritize the job that she's loving and feeling fulfilled by, despite the real life factors of salary and full-time vs part-time. 

If the current arrangement isn't working, the choices would be that Kate moves toward Toby's job, thus leaving hers, or Toby moves back and leaves his. And in real life, with 2 children, one of them blind, the choice would come down to whose salary they can actually live on because while fulfillment is important, food and shelter are higher priorities. But in This is Us, Pearson family, Big 3-centric, big-speech land, Kate loving her low paying part time job can somehow be the driver of an entire family's circumstances and Toby's fulfillment be damned because the Pearsons' feelings are somehow stronger than everyone else's or something. 

I'd love it if that's how the breakup (that we already know is going to happen) goes down, if Toby finally realizes how much he supports Kate's choices and preferences and how much she takes it all for granted and lets him. 

Re: Sophie and Kevin: didn't they get back together as adults? Was Kate just not around or what? I know that moment of Sophie walking out wasn't the last contact Kevin and Sophie had, but I can't recall where Kate was or what she was up to during those moments of potential reconciliation.

Toby would be on the same phone calls if the Pearson-Damons were in SF with him.  It's not the distance that's the issue, but the amount of hours per day Toby is working.   In LA, Kate has her family and Madison. If she was in SF, she would be alone with the kids while Toby puts in 80 hours a week at work. She's better off staying in LA where she has a support system.

I get that some jobs have busy seasons that require a person to work 60-80 hours a week.  So would Kate.  But if Toby's job is requiring this for months on end, I can see this putting a major strain on their marriage.   And we have been seeing this all season with Toby working more than what he and Kate expected.   

[Maximona]

The only way this show gets saved at this point is if Beth starts bonking Luca Kovac behind Randall's back.  I can't remember all the weird flashbacks, but don't Randall and Beth end up divorcing?   Let this be the pretext, writers!  Kinda like a ballet version of The Night Porter!!!!!

That would give me a reason to keep watching!!! 

PLUS—Madison is a very irritating character.  

And how is it that after—what?  Twenty years of not speaking?—that Kate has Sophie's phone # still?

 

 

[KaveDweller]

8 hours ago, smartymarty said:

Regarding Kevin and Madison, while Madison jumped the gun by assuming she could have the kids for Thanksgiving, so did Kevin. The conversation started because Kevin wanted to forward proposed flights to Madison. So they both were in the wrong. How they could not have hashed this out yet is ridiculous. It doesn't even matter that they're not married -- married couples face this when deciding which family to spend each holiday with (with battles over Baby's First Christmas).

But at least Kevin was assuming they would all be together. In fact, it seemed like he had mentioned going to Pennsylvania before and was continuing a previous conversation. He shouldn't have assumed Madison would want to spend the holiday with his family, but at least he was including her in the plan.

7 hours ago, AzraeltheCat said:

hmm, I'm a lot older that the Big Three and NO ONE I know calls an in-law Mr. or Mrs. Whoever.  It's usually a first name; occasionally a nickname or the person's "grandparent" name (like "Mimi" or whatever.)  Though, I can totally see not calling an in-law "mom" or other parental designation, esp if you haven't been married long. And definitely agree that Mother Pearson sounds like a nun! 

I think that if Sophie and Kevin had stayed married, she probably would have shifted to calling her Rebecca. But she was 18 when they got married and had known Rebecca since she was really young. It probably felt weird to suddenly shift to calling an adult by her first name. I think she wouldn't use "Mrs" for the mother of a significant other she met today.

6 hours ago, JKL845 said:

Um, yes they did. Kate has Sophie's new phone number. They just never addressed the situation before probably. 

Kate hadn't stayed in touch with Sophie for most of that time, because when Kevin and Sophie first reconnected she asked him how Kate was. Then she was surprised to hear Kate was engaged. So they hadn't been talking in that time. But it seems likely that they exchanged numbers and had some interaction when Kevin and Sophie were dating more recently. 

[ljenkins782]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

Toby would be on the same phone calls if the Pearson-Damons were in SF with him.  It's not the distance that's the issue, but the amount of hours per day Toby is working.   In LA, Kate has her family and Madison. If she was in SF, she would be alone with the kids while Toby puts in 80 hours a week at work. She's better off staying in LA where she has a support system.

I get that some jobs have busy seasons that require a person to work 60-80 hours a week.  So would Kate.  But if Toby's job is requiring this for months on end, I can see this putting a major strain on their marriage.   And we have been seeing this all season with Toby working more than what he and Kate expected.   

Right now Toby is commuting back and forth between LA and SF. So the complaint is about Toby spending what little time he gets with them on calls and work. If they were together every day, Toby needing to spend some extra time away from the family would be less noticeable because they'd have more time together overall.

[Domenicholas]

I think the Kevin/Madison conflict was written specifically to make Kevin look wrong. The conflict was only viewed from the point of Madison going to the cabin vs staying with Elijah. Kate mainly talks about the situation in regards to Madison falling in love for the first time, Kevin talks about acting like divorced parents before accepting that Madison has her own life, and Elijah asserts his feelings for Madison and tells Kevin not to bide his time expecting him to leave.

If the show would have instead framed it as who's going to have the kids for Thanksgiving, the story would have been more complex, and neither of them would have been in the wrong. We could have even explore more of their parental dynamic. Kevin could have pointed out that Thanksgiving is very important to his family, it would be the first time his entire family is together since the not-wedding, he's worried that his mother's mental capacity may make moments like this rare, the twins already live Madison and see her most of the time whereas he doesn't have as much time with them, etc... Madison then could state that the babies are still breastfeeding and she doesn't want to risk them running out of food if she pumps it, that Kevin will be surrounded by family members whereas she only has the twins, etc... They could have even explored how Madison, with her absent mother and distant father, doesn't know how to respond to Kevin's desire to be hands-on. Overall, I think Kevin should have been able to take the twins to Pennsylvania while Madison stayed in LA with Elijah, but I would have accepted the decision not to better if it wasn't frame as Kevin preventing Madison from moving on.

Unpopular opinion, but I don't think Elijah's speech at the end was creepy. I think he's an insecure guy who is really into his stunning girlfriend but feels intimidated by her even more stunning celebrity baby daddy. I saw it as him finding the confidence to say that he's worth being with Madison, and he's not going to let his own insecurities get in the way of that or force him to bow out for Kevin's sake. The only reason I could see the show making a creep would be to support a Kevin/Madison endgame. Now, I like Kevin/Madison together, but I also like the message that two people can be great parents without being together. Also, I'm starting to really like Elijah/Madison, and I hate when tv shows or movies make a non-main-character love interest evil to set up a main-character romance. Also, Elijah reminds me of J. J. Abrams every time I see him.

I understand Sophie's reaction towards Kate after the cheating revelation. She's young and in pain, so she reacted emotionally rather than logically. I was more surprised that Kate and Sophie were still implied to be close friends when they were younger. After the joint birthday I don't think we saw Kate and Sophie interact again without Kevin until this episode. Along those lines, I'm happy that they remembered that Madison was Kate's friend first before she was Kevin's baby mama.

It does look like they're setting up Kevin/Sophie 3.0. I like Sophie, and I like her and Kevin together, but I just can't with the idea that his soul mate is someone he divorced 20 years ago and couldn't make it work with even after that. If they wouldn't have shown him with a wedding band in the "Her" future, I would say that they were setting Kevin up to be happily single.

[bros402]

1. Madison, you know that Thanksgiving is the most loved holiday by the Pearson family - let Kevin have it, he'd probably give you every Christmas/December holiday in exchange
2. uhhh, Beth's speech to Goran Visnijc was something
3. Kate and Sophie have reconnected! I am slightly interested and seeing how that ends up - also, I am betting that Sophie will end up being a bridesmaid at Kate's wedding, and because Kevin is doing the Princess Bride speech, it will woo Sophie and they will end up happily ever after.

[debraran]

6 hours ago, bros402 said:

1. Madison, you know that Thanksgiving is the most loved holiday by the Pearson family - let Kevin have it, he'd probably give you every Christmas/December holiday in exchange
2. uhhh, Beth's speech to Goran Visnijc was something
3. Kate and Sophie have reconnected! I am slightly interested and seeing how that ends up - also, I am betting that Sophie will end up being a bridesmaid at Kate's wedding, and because Kevin is doing the Princess Bride speech, it will woo Sophie and they will end up happily ever after.

I agree with all.  And Gordon did age well from ER. ; )

[JudyObscure]

14 hours ago, himela said:

Are we supposed to be having kids with people who don't love us? :P

Thank you for saying that.  

To me this episode was, probably unintentionally on the writer's part, an example of just how hard and complicated joint custody can become.  I've lived it and I remember setting out on that path with some very foolish ideas, like "Children are not hurt by divorce if you make it clear to them that it's not their fault,"  "They can't be happy unless you're happy," "We will live close to each other and they will see both of us and all their grandparents all the time, and everything will be fine!" 

My son was devastated by the divorce and never really happy afterward.  It shook something deep in him that he never got back. 

 It would be different with these babies, but they're heading for a lifetime of plane trips, and wondering who they'll be with when and step-parents or boyfriends who come and go, and possibly the whole blended family situation with brand new half-siblings showing up in their home, and step-grandparents who maybe get them Christmas presents, but don't really love them like they do their blood relatives. One thing is for sure they will never have that settled assurance that comes from both parents, right there, in the home, every day and night.

When Kate's father was no longer there she could barely go on with life.  Now she's going to intentionally take her children's once-present father from them and turn him into a visitor. 

Madison chose to keep her pregnancy and bring the twins into the world.   Kevin was more than willing to marry her and be in the home with them full time.  She chose her own happiness over theirs.

I know those are harsh things to say, but I will always wish someone had given me such straight  talk before I went looking for someone who would be "in love" with me, because that stuff rarely lasts anyway and it just is not worth the sacrifice.

[smartymarty]

Quote

Kate has Sophie's new phone number.

I thought Kate found Sophie's instagram page and contacted her that way.

[Boo Boo]

Didn't enjoy this episode and watching Beth be the savior to the dancer and speechify like a Pearson.

[Mrs Shibbles]

How did this show end up so terrible?  In the earlier seasons, I loved the sweet cute Pearson family unit, but I now find myself cringing at how they treat each other, and especially outsiders to the family.    Not cool.  You don’t get a free pass just because you have had a family tragedy.  
 

i used to look forward to new episodes, but now watching it has become a chore.

Edited February 25, 2022 by Mrs Shibbles

[tinderbox]

I’d give this episode a D and the season, so far, a C+.  NOT AT ALL what I expected.  Pffffft…..  I’m not sure if I’m tired of the show, in general, or just feel like the writers are treading water.  

Edited February 26, 2022 by tinderbox

[absnow54]

18 hours ago, KaveDweller said:

Kate hadn't stayed in touch with Sophie for most of that time, because when Kevin and Sophie first reconnected she asked him how Kate was. Then she was surprised to hear Kate was engaged. So they hadn't been talking in that time. But it seems likely that they exchanged numbers and had some interaction when Kevin and Sophie were dating more recently. 

I'm confused about that. If they had been in touch since their fight, then how would Sophie know that Kate was reminiscing about it before texting her. It felt very much like a "this has been hanging over us for 20 years waiting for someone to make the first move" kind of response.

[CrystalBlue]

8 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Thank you for saying that.  

To me this episode was, probably unintentionally on the writer's part, an example of just how hard and complicated joint custody can become.  I've lived it and I remember setting out on that path with some very foolish ideas, like "Children are not hurt by divorce if you make it clear to them that it's not their fault,"  "They can't be happy unless you're happy," "We will live close to each other and they will see both of us and all their grandparents all the time, and everything will be fine!" 

My son was devastated by the divorce and never really happy afterward.  It shook something deep in him that he never got back. 

 It would be different with these babies, but they're heading for a lifetime of plane trips, and wondering who they'll be with when and step-parents or boyfriends who come and go, and possibly the whole blended family situation with brand new half-siblings showing up in their home, and step-grandparents who maybe get them Christmas presents, but don't really love them like they do their blood relatives. One thing is for sure they will never have that settled assurance that comes from both parents, right there, in the home, every day and night.

When Kate's father was no longer there she could barely go on with life.  Now she's going to intentionally take her children's once-present father from them and turn him into a visitor. 

Madison chose to keep her pregnancy and bring the twins into the world.   Kevin was more than willing to marry her and be in the home with them full time.  She chose her own happiness over theirs.

I know those are harsh things to say, but I will always wish someone had given me such straight  talk before I went looking for someone who would be "in love" with me, because that stuff rarely lasts anyway and it just is not worth the sacrifice.

This 100%.  Thank you for sharing your personal experience and being so honest with yourself and learning from your experience in life.  I am a (very old adult) child of divorce and the resulting circumstances and trauma leave lifelong scars.  People just don't realize it unless they live through it themselves, I guess.

I am not talking about the divorces that occur due to actual abuse or severe alcohol/substance abuse problems, gambling away the house and your lives, getting out alive while you still can, etc.

[Bklyndeb]

I'm beginning to think they are making these episodes painfully unwatchable so we won't miss the show when it ends.

That was just all-around awful.

[CrystalBlue]

3 minutes ago, Bklyndeb said:

I'm beginning to think they are making these episodes painfully unwatchable so we won't miss the show when it ends.

That was just all-around awful.

Yeah, you could be on to something!  Remember when Season 1 started and it was a contant cry-in-your-hankies tour with extracurricular appearances by the cast telling us how to feel and cry?

This OOC Beth and the Ballet Teacher storyline with Pearson Speech was ... what?  Annoying?  Weird?  Stupid?

Also, in show business, the mantra is The Show Must Go On.  The fallen ballerina and Beth coddling her onstage while the audience and ballerinas backstage wait was ridiculous.

Between Kate's bad attitude and whining about Toby's job that supports her part-time teacher's aide ass with two small children and guitar-strumming houseguest Kevin telling Toby what's what in his own damn house, no wonder they get a divorce.  Toby is probably the one who has enough and files which is why the rest of the Pearson fam, especially Rebecca, might not want him at Rebecca's deathbed scene, at least in his mind.  Because you know Kate will let everyone know that he done her wrong.

That's what probably brings Kate and Philip Mean Jerk together.  Boo hoo Kate sobbing in British Teacher/Her Boss's arms.