S04.E02: The Balmoral Test

[sugarbaker design]

1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

And sleeping together is sheer folly - that poor husband has stay awake until his wife has finished reading her state papers. 

But I don't think this is anything new in the Thatcher marriage.  I'm sure Margaret was bringing work to bed, whether it was Conservative Party paperwork or Prime Minister super secret papers.  Old habits die hard, if ain't broke don't fix it.

[Normades]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I have hard to understand why people have to keep their former habits that don't suit to their new situation in life? If a wife is a Prime Minister, she has better things to do than unpack her husband's bag (can't he do it himself or does Margaret want check if there is evidence for cheating?). And sleeping together is sheer folly - that poor husband has stay awake until his wife has finished reading her state papers. 

I thought her unpacking for her husband was a way of being loving toward him.  Yes, she is a busy, powerful woman, but he's more important to her than any of that.  I found it kind of sweet, which I wouldn't have ever used to describe Margaret Thatcher in the past.  Also some couples like to go to sleep at the same time, so to me it didn't seem problematic. 

[graybrown bird]

As portrayed here, it seems Denis Thatcher was the partner who "gives in to get along" in that marriage.

[Umbelina]

13 minutes ago, Normades said:

I thought her unpacking for her husband was a way of being loving toward him.  Yes, she is a busy, powerful woman, but he's more important to her than any of that.  I found it kind of sweet, which I wouldn't have ever used to describe Margaret Thatcher in the past.  Also some couples like to go to sleep at the same time, so to me it didn't seem problematic. 

Yes, it obviously worked for them, one of the happiest marriages we've seen on this show.

Also, the eighties.  Women were trying very hard to juggle it all, loving wife, homemaker, cook, cleaner, good mother, AND a high powered career, proving they weren't sacrificing their "womanhood" for a career.  

It was exhausting.

[kaygeeret]

On 11/17/2020 at 10:46 AM, MartyQui said:

Not even Harlequin romances...her step-grandmother was Barbara Cartland, who wrote icky novels about 18 year old virgins marrying 40 year old dukes.

Actually Barbara Cartland was the absolute queen at the Harlequin Romance publishing house.

I actually read 2 - in about 20 minutes.....they were that short and formulaic.  Read one, read 'em all.

[Mellowyellow]

Denis and Margaret were cute. Loved how horrified she was that they were given separate rooms and how she thought it was a terrible idea for him to sleep in a different room for even one night.

I really liked their very sweet, extremely comfortable, almost mundane relationship in contrast to the Charles and Diana evolving hot mess. I don't think it's deliberate but it stood out to me. 

[benteen]

Margaret and Denis's relationship is definitely a highlight.  It's the only thing so far that has kept Anderson's Thatcher impersonation tolerable.

[PeterPirate]

Random odd thoughts about this episode:  

We never do find out if the wind was blowing from the left or the right.  They could write a folk song about that.  

The inclusion of a Japanese tourist caused me to think of a book I read many years ago, called The Hunting Gun by Yasushi Inoue.  Despite the title, it is about someone who carries a secret love despite being married to someone else.  

I was also reminded that in The Lion, The Witch, and The Wardrobe, the Pevensies were chasing after a stag when they were suddenly transformed from royalty into common English folk.  Well, it was a fantasy, after all.  

20 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Watching this family makes me grateful a scrappy Colonial militia said "to hell with this shit" in 1776. 

Especially the can of whoopass they broke out at the Yorktown Airport in 1781.  

[AZChristian]

16 minutes ago, PeterPirate said:

We never do find out if the wind was blowing from the left or the right.  They could write a folk song about that.  

I thought that when Diana asked him after he shot the stag, he replied that it was blowing from the left.

[Blakeston]

2 hours ago, AZChristian said:

I thought that when Diana asked him after he shot the stag, he replied that it was blowing from the left.

He didn't say. But the look on his face (and the triumphant look on hers) strongly suggested that they both knew it was coming from the left.

[AZChristian]

9 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

He didn't say. But the look on his face (and the triumphant look on hers) strongly suggested that they both knew it was coming from the left.

Transcript of closed captioning:

Philip:  Where's the wind coming from?  The right?

Diana:  It's the left, sir.  

Philip:  What?

Diana:  Well, look at the clouds.

Philip:  It's swirling.  No, I say the right.

Diana:  It's the left.

Philip:  (Shoots and stag goes down.)

Diana:  Good shot, sir.  Was it from the left?

Philip:  (Chuckles softly.)

-------

Yeah . . . it was coming from the left.  LOL.

[merylinkid]

Thatcher did not get to be Prime Minister without attending at least ONE house party in the country.   She knew darn well what to pack and what went on in manor houses with regards to sleeping arrangements.   They dumbed her down solely to show she was just a shopkeeper's daughter who could never fit in at Balmoral.    Also to show a contract to Diana who knew EXACTLY how to behave to snag a Prince.  

Margaret did have one good line about why MT needed to stop working and relax -- you might not get enjoyment but you might get ... perspective.    Which is accurate.   Sometimes you need to step away and rest your brain to really tackle a problem -- if it is a problem.   Amazing how they gave that line to flibbertigibbet Margaret.

Lady Fermoy was just as scheming as the Boleyns and the Howards were in the 1500s.   Sarah hadn't snagged Charles, so Diana was darn well going to get it right and elevate the family.   Diana was manipulative herself pretending to like the outdoors and hunting just to pass the Balmoral tests.

Although the Royals were insufferable to the Thatchers, her attitude at the Braemar games was equally deplorable.   She said they had no culture.   Umm, the Braemar games are VERY cultural.   You think people throw logs and dance the Highland Fling because they HAVE to?   But again, it was to show that MT was all work and no play.   She considered relaxation frivolous and a waste of time.   She looked down on anyone who actually liked to  have fun for 5 minutes.

[Umbelina]

Quote

 

Thatcher's biographer, the journalist Charles Moore, wrote in The Telegraph that while aspects of this visit are “surely wrong”, the “broad impression has the ring of truth”.  

The Queen’s biographer, Ben Pimlott, once stated that Thatcher viewed Balmoral as a form of “purgatory”.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/netflix/the-crown/the-crown-season-4-balmoral-test-margaret-thatcher-queen-neftlix-b1723579.html

Quote

 

Interviews with Diana reveal a key part of the test is having the royal wherewithal not to sit in a chair last used by Queen Victoria. If you sit in the chair, Diana biographer Andrew Morton writes, the family will shout “Don’t sit there” at you, and immediately know you’re scum.

“Those who successfully navigate this social minefield, popularly known as ‘the Balmoral test,’ are accepted by the royal family,” writes Morton.

“The ones who fail vanish from royal favour as quickly as the Highland mists come and go.”

But it’s not just the chair. You’re expected to have an outfit for every occasion – from dining to hunting – as well as eat the food whether you like it or not. When you’re taken hunting, don’t moan if it’s raining. Just be a good guest and have good manners, basically. Probably best not to drink the soup from the bowl or try and play odds on with Prince Philip.

When Diana took the test, she was “shitting bricks”, she revealed to a biographer. However, by all accounts she did okay. The Crown diverges from real life in that she didn’t go shooting with Prince Philip.

 

https://thetab.com/uk/2020/11/16/thatcher-diana-test-the-crown-182611

Edited November 20, 2020 by Umbelina

[BitterApple]

16 minutes ago, merylinkid said:

 

Lady Fermoy was just as scheming as the Boleyns and the Howards were in the 1500s.   Sarah hadn't snagged Charles, so Diana was darn well going to get it right and elevate the family.   Diana was manipulative herself pretending to like the outdoors and hunting just to pass the Balmoral tests.

Interesting comparison, because it certainly didn't end well for Diana, Anne or Catherine.

[Anothermi]

On 11/18/2020 at 1:13 PM, Normades said:

I thought her unpacking for her husband was a way of being loving toward him.  Yes, she is a busy, powerful woman, but he's more important to her than any of that.  I found it kind of sweet, which I wouldn't have ever used to describe Margaret Thatcher in the past.  Also some couples like to go to sleep at the same time, so to me it didn't seem problematic. 

While I can see your point about it being how she showed her love, I did think he'd wistfully hoped he might be able to get a good, undisturbed sleep that night. But he seemed to be a man who felt comfortable following her rules and letting her make the decisions. They may have lucked into a marriage where each knew themselves and each accepted who each other was. That's about as kind as I can be towards her. I didn't know him, so I might be able to be kinder to him if the opportunity arose. 

 

[JudyObscure]

On 11/17/2020 at 9:15 PM, Trillian said:

And on top of that, they were Americans. Americans do not bow/curtesy to foreign royalty.  Subjects do so as a sign of fealty.   Miss Manners says so and Miss Manners knows all such things. 

I agree, and Miss Manners suggests, "I beg your pardon," as the perfect thing to say when someone is being rude to you. Far better than what I would have said to Princess Margaret if I had been Thatcher.

[Normades]

3 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

I agree, and Miss Manners suggests, "I beg your pardon," as the perfect thing to say when someone is being rude to you. Far better than what I would have said to Princess Margaret if I had been Thatcher.

Yes, I didn't understand why Princess Margaret said you shouldn't say "I beg your pardon" but you should say "wot."  Made no sense to me.  Was she serious?  Do the British not say that?

[estellasmum]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

Yes, I didn't understand why Princess Margaret said you shouldn't say "I beg your pardon" but you should say "wot."  Made no sense to me.  Was she serious?  Do the British not say that?

From what I've read (American here) it is very middle/working class to say "I beg your pardon", and the correct upper class term is "wot/what".

[swanpride]

Lol...and here I was taught as a child in Germany, that I should never say "Was?" ("What?") but should always say something along the line of "Bitte?" (Excuse me? or Beg your pardon basically), because saying "Was" is impolite and rude.

Thanks for the explanation, the scene really didn't translate well. Or maybe it did, since I took it as Margaret telling Thatcher that she has to be more rude to act like a noble....

[65mickey]

I think there is some poetic license going on in this series. They portrayed JFK as a swaggering cowboy and Jackie as not knowing the proper way to address Prince Phillip. That I absolutely do not buy. Both JFK and Jackie were educated and sophisticated. The president of the United States would not have gone to Buckingham Palace without being throughly briefed by their protocol officers. From what I have read about it that scene with Diana And Phillip did not happend. She went shooting with Charles once and never took part in that activity again. I think things are being added in and changd to keep the story interesting and slightly  juicy. It is hard for me t believe that the entire royal family is so boorish and rude that they would intentionally set out to intimidate and humiliate their guests. But what do I know maybe they are. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, 65mickey said:

 It is hard for me t believe that the entire royal family is so boorish and rude that they would intentionally set out to intimidate and humiliate their guests. But what do I know maybe they are. 

You would think, but I remember reading that prior to Diana's first Christmas at Balmoral, nobody told her the family only exchanges cheap gag gifts. So she shows up with expensive cashmere sweaters and feels like an idiot. I get the vibe the family enjoys the Mean Girls level of mind games.

[CeeBeeGee]

 

On 11/16/2020 at 10:47 AM, Blakeston said:

I'm more sympathetic to Charles than most, but I thought he came across as a dick at the symphony. Diana said that she loved Verdi because his music is romantic, and Charles haughtily corrected her, as if she had said, "Verdi's music was good for nothing but romanticism." Shut up, Charles.

Right? You're not her teacher, Charles. And Traviata is romantic. Not everyone knows about Vittorio Emanuele Re D'Italia.

On 11/16/2020 at 1:56 PM, Jeeves said:

 

@swanpride posted while I was writing this. I had the same idea about the meat from the wounded stag. And yep, the fox hunting is a different subject, IMO, and seems like basically a way for a lot of horse-mad people to justify galloping around in a group, followed by drinks and jollity and a certain amount of fooling around for those who are into that sort of thing. So fine, let 'em do all that without the excuse of "hunting" the poor fox. 

That is how many Americans hunt--drag the scent through the fields to give the dogs a reason to get excited and the riders to get to gallop over uneven terrain. Basically it's all an excuse to get dressed up in hunt gear and then eat a huge boozy breakfast afterward.

God, Charles and Diana (especially the way she's selling herself to him/them--country girl, loves the mud, likes opera, enjoys blood sports) together is like watching a slow-motion car crash. Poor little Sloane Ranger, she had no idea...

That conspiratorial half-smile between Lady Fermoy (Diana's granny) and the Queen Mother was true--they were good friends and supposedly were both pulling for the match. (But this has also been disputed.) But Granny lecturing Diana about how important this visit was "for the family" is bogus. The Spencers were doing just fine--the title had been in the family since the 1700s and and Althorp House (their seat) went back even further. Sometimes they even looked down on the Windsors because of all their German ancestry. And I don't think that Diana necessarily "passed the test with flying colors"--nobody was that enthusiastic about her, as I recall, it was more "well, she'll do--she's got the requisite background [in every sense of the word] so you'd better snap her up." Specifically Philip told Charles if he wasn't going to propose, he had better end things and Charles misinterpreted this as an order to propose to her.

Peter Morgan sure likes his stag metaphors! Also on the nose was the conversation between Philip and Diana ("Shouldn't we try and get closer?" "No, we'll never get another shot"). I am pretty sure Diana never went stalking with Philip, or that he was openly vetting her through conversation, but the scene was very sweet nonetheless. (I loved her insistence that the wind was from the left.) She did however go fly fishing with Charles in that colorful sweater so I'm wondering why they didn't show that instead?

I absolutely detest trophy hunting. Yes, I realize the hunters at the beginning shot the stag first and Philip was in a way doing him a mercy but everyone was a little too gleeful about it. Stop murdering animals for fun and showing off their heads.

"You've been a great sport." *awkward pat on the shoulder* God, I'm cringing in vicarious mortification. Charles, your game suuuuuucks.

Loved Philip in his tartan! He is the Duke of Edinburgh, after all 🙂

Thatcher preparing for her Night of the Long Knives sacking of her cabinet by donning her armor jewelry was well done. 

[GiuliettaMasina]

I agree with those that are of the opinion that both the Royals and MT came off poorly, but that the Royals, as the hosts, were definitely the bigger assholes here. Not to defend MT too much (shudder), but I'd also point out that the opportunity to hunt the stag was unexpected even to the Royals. They canceled everything they had planned the day before the Thatchers arrived because they couldn't resist the opportunity to hunt a stag that large. So (in the show universe at least), it's quite possible the Thatchers didn't prepare for such an intense outdoor activity because no such activity was planned in advance. Maybe they were expecting more along the lines of "sitting in the audience of local athletic events" than "stalking an animal in the mud for 4+ hours." 

 

[Roseanna]

Thatcher was an outsider because of her background and gender. So maybe she had never invited to week-end parties where men hunt and fish, create and keep networks, discuss informally so that decisions are already made when the formal meeting begins. Perhaps that's why she thinks that the Prime Minister must read all the papers instead of knowing whose papers are useful and whose are not.  

[Bill1978]

So the message I took from this episode is that from now on I'm not meant to like The Royal Family at all. I know for 3 seasons we've trod the line carefully but there was always that balance of out of touch and just being mean. And this episode was just mean people on display which is a shame, as I have been enjoying getting to know the person behind the personality. That pre-dinner drink scene was just brutal in the presentation of The Royal Family.

Big picture I can see what they are doing cause really this season needs to really show how The Royal Family is stuck in the past and resisting to adjust to the new society forming and they need to move all those pieces into place for it to make sense, but did it have to be so heavy handed.

I am concerned this is going to turn into the Charles & Diana show and ignore the other members of the family. I mean it was nice to see Anne's husband this episode, but would it have been too much to ask for a reference to the fact she is now a mother. They are so caught up with Charles' relationships that they seem to have forgotten what is happening with everyone else. That's one of the things I loved about the first 2 seasons, they showed the behind the scenes relationships of the family and I was so looking forward at the time to learning more about how The Queen's children interacted as they grew up. It's why I liked that little scene at the end with Anne and Charles being all sibling like. Although I always feel that Anne is the eldest and I know she isn't.

And speaking of Charles, wow it's amazing how personal opinion is clouding my opinion of the character on the show. Pre-Camilla I was sympathetic to him, but post-Camilla appearance I just find him as a big sook. I am not looking forward to a whole season of him moping after Camilla. Mainly cause I'm not a fan of real life Camilla. I also feel the show is relying too much on our knowledge of where the whole triangle is heading to push it forward instead of just telling the story without hindsight.

Even with these critiques, 2 episodes in this season is better than all of 3. Maybe cause they've remembered to include splashes of humour.

 

[Brn2bwild]

14 hours ago, estellasmum said:

From what I've read (American here) it is very middle/working class to say "I beg your pardon", and the correct upper class term is "wot/what".

Supposedly because nicety phrases like "I beg your pardon" or "he passed away" were created by lower class people trying to imitate the manners of the upper classes, whereas upper class people know that they are, and therefore say blunter phrases such as "what" and "he died."

[swanpride]

The more I listen to this, the happier I am that the war basically destroyed the upper class in Germany.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, Brn2bwild said:

Supposedly because nicety phrases like "I beg your pardon" or "he passed away" were created by lower class people trying to imitate the manners of the upper classes, whereas upper class people know that they are, and therefore say blunter phrases such as "what" and "he died."

That's the way it happens: when the ordinary people began to imitate the elites, the latter invent some new way to make the distinction.

Remember the vicar's nouveau-riche wife, Mrs Elton, in Austen's Emma: she knew that it was impolite to speak about herself, so she spoke about her in-laws, their house etc. - not realizing that it was just as bad. And one can't fully understand the picnic scene without understanding that Emma and Frank Churchill were grossly impolite towards others even before she was openly crude towards Miss Bates.     

[JudyObscure]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Remember the vicar's nouveau-riche wife, Mrs Elton, in Austen's Emma: she knew that it was impolite to speak about herself, so she spoke about her in-laws, their house etc. - not realizing that it was just as bad. And one can't fully understand the picnic scene without understanding that Emma and Frank Churchill were grossly impolite towards others even before she was openly crude towards Miss Bates.    

There's so much in that scene!  Mrs. Elton bragging on herself by saying, "My friends say I'm the (most whatever.)  I've known people who do that, "Everyone tells me I have great legs," was one I once heard.   The whole "Badly done, Emma" chapter is my favorite bit of Jane Austen, Mr. Knightly is my Darcy.

Am I the only one who saw the Balmoral tests and thought of Nancy Mitford's 1955 article telling the world what the aristocrats considered "U" and "Non-U."  Mrs Thatcher should have researched that.

https://www.tatler.com/article/nancy-mitford-u-and-non-u-language

[dubbel zout]

2 hours ago, JudyObscure said:

Am I the only one who saw the Balmoral tests and thought of Nancy Mitford's 1955 article telling the world what the aristocrats considered "U" and "Non-U."  Mrs Thatcher should have researched that.

Same! Mitford was somewhat tongue-in-cheek with all of that, but there was more than a lot of truth in it.

[Aliferously]

Well, if they called it the "Proverbial Lambs To The Slaughter" it would have worked too.

Only on episode two, but both episodes so far have had a "sex and nudity" warning beforehand. I kept looking for a naked lady in a portrait in the background because none was shown directly. How about an animal abuse or suffering tag instead Netflix? I also thought there was something sacreligious about it. 

I watched the Thatcher half both amused and annoyed. Surely pictures exist of the Royal Family traipsing in the mud pre dating the Thatcher era, no? What did she think would happen? 

Assholes, the lot of them. 

I thought the idea of Philip taking Diana hunting sort of odd. Doesn't that take a whole day away in what must already be a short weekend?

 

 

[65mickey]

It didnt happen.

[ravencroft]

Am I the only one who when Princess Margaret got on MT's case about Queen Victoria's chair, said outloud "Then why is it even out? Why have a chair that people are not supposed to use?" 

Ugh, I hate rude hosts, especially ones that go out of their way to make their guests feel bad about not knowing all the unwritten rules. 

[childeroland]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:30 PM, dubbel zout said:

It was driving me crazy where I'd see the actor playing Lady Fermoy (Diana's grandmother)—it's Geordie Glen, who I know as Miss Higgins (Dr. Turner's office assistant) from Call the Midwife. Interesting that she's playing a similar sort of role here!

Me too, but I knew her as Audrey Mcfall from Waterloo Road!

[buttersister]

Quote

The Kennedy episode was a real low point in the series for me, 

Yes, it was also the tip for me that this whole series (or shall I say, entire series?) is a fictional account of the royal family. Scenery's lovely. Production values are good (with the exception of that stag). Elizabeth comes off the best of the lot because, well, The Crown. And whether accurate or not, Phillip is dependably an ass.

The wounding of the stag did scramble the planned activities, but if I'm going up to Scotland for a weekend, I'm bringing a pair of sensible shoes and a jacket. Especially if I'm as maladjusted as Maggie and never want to make a mistake.

 

[Growsonwalls]

Serious question here: is it possible Maggie didn't have outdoors shoes? I combed through pictures of her I could find online and she is ALWAYS in some sort of low-heeled pump. I imagine she was a workaholic and thus dressed "professionally" every day of her life. Back then, "professional" attire was very strict for women. 

It's totally possible that in her all-work-and-no-play life she saw no need for outdoors shoes. 

[TaurusRose]

On 11/15/2020 at 1:16 PM, Ellaria Sand said:

I absolutely HATE the hunting scenes in this show. Yes, I am aware that the royals are hunters. And yes, I understand the symbolism of hunting/killing the stag. Regardless, watching that beautiful creature walking wounded thru the woods was heartbreaking.

I agree.  I know the stag was CGI, I'm not aware of any production company that  kills or maims an animal for the sake of a story line.

On 11/15/2020 at 1:16 PM, greekmom said:

I hate Charles with a passion.

I have never liked (the real) Prince Charles.  I remember the scandalous affair his and Diana's marriage became.  The way he's portrayed in The Crown has reminded me how much I disliked him when the whole Camilla Parker Bowles thing was revealed.  

On 11/15/2020 at 4:47 PM, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure the stag was CGI.

One of the camera angles made it pretty obvious, but it was still a magnificent rendering.

On 11/15/2020 at 10:40 PM, Sir RaiderDuck OMS said:

No way Netflix is going to risk the media's wrath by actually wounding an animal.

Forget the media's wrath.  Animal lovers would be calling for their heads.

On 11/15/2020 at 11:42 PM, Lsk02 said:

I do suspect the conversation in the car when Thatcher talked about her fun being work may have had something to do with Elizabeth’s sudden exasperation with Margaret, too. She got the subtext and wasn’t thrilled with the insult. 

These people seem to be always taking shots at each other.  

On 11/16/2020 at 1:56 PM, Jeeves said:

 So fine, let 'em do all that without the excuse of "hunting" the poor fox. 

I despise fox hunting.  It is the worst.  And for what?  Terrorizing and destroying an animal for sport is evil.  

On 11/16/2020 at 6:41 PM, mledawn said:

These are points that I thought of myself as I watched. For Thatcher to arrive at Balmoral so massively unprepared seemed really out of character. 

Thatcher's comments about the Games were really grating - and I'm sure designed to contrast/compare with the "snobbishness" of the Royals.

As an aside, hearing Tobias Menzies say "Sandringham" had me in Outlander flashbacks and I rewound it a few times!

I've seen Tobias Menzies in a lot of things, and it was hard to separate him from Black Jack Randall, whom I despised, for a while when he appeared in other roles.  But I must say I'm really enjoying him as Prince Philip.  

On 11/16/2020 at 7:44 PM, Jeeves said:

Preach. And, there's this little detail: JFK's father was the United States Ambassador to Great Britain when JFK was a teenager, and he and his sibs spent years in England. His sister Kathleen married into the British aristocracy. I'm sure JFK was well-informed and even a bit experienced in court protocol; he could probably have given Brits lessons in how to behave there. Sheesh.

This.  Plus, I'm pretty sure the White House employs protocol officers to keep up with the proper etiquette for official engagements.  Not to mention, Jackie was no social slouch by any stretch of the imagination.  Nor was she a crybaby.

On 11/20/2020 at 6:41 AM, JudyObscure said:

I agree, and Miss Manners suggests, "I beg your pardon," as the perfect thing to say when someone is being rude to you. 

Huh.  I would have gone with "Excuse me?" in the tone.  But after reading all the posts here, I understand there was a whole other thing going on in the scene with the chair.

On 11/20/2020 at 3:37 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

I absolutely detest trophy hunting. Yes, I realize the hunters at the beginning shot the stag first and Philip was in a way doing him a mercy but everyone was a little too gleeful about it. Stop murdering animals for fun and showing off their heads.

YES!

Edited November 22, 2020 by taurusrose

[Umbelina]

47 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Serious question here: is it possible Maggie didn't have outdoors shoes? I combed through pictures of her I could find online and she is ALWAYS in some sort of low-heeled pump. I imagine she was a workaholic and thus dressed "professionally" every day of her life. Back then, "professional" attire was very strict for women. 

It's totally possible that in her all-work-and-no-play life she saw no need for outdoors shoes. 

I don't think she did own any.  I just read something the other day that when she needed galoshes she borrowed them, because she didn't own any.

I imagine her as always frugal, and the money spent on clothes was for business, and to represent her party, and later her country in the highest office in the land.

I honestly don't blame her for not bringing stalking clothes.  I'd almost bet that she planned to get her work done while they were all out killing things, certainly not to participate.  Usually a house guest of decent hosts isn't expected to be tested, let alone "sing for their supper."  She had weighty things to cope with, this wasn't a bank teller's holiday, nor, frankly, did she need to impress the Royals.  She actually earned her position, and still had to work.  Sure, the Queen kept up with her "red box" while at Balmoral, but honestly, trying to compare that 1 hour or so "duty" to that of a Prime Minister who is actually running the country?

Please.

Furthermore, their kind of "fun" was in no way her kind, or at all "relaxing."  She would have been far more relaxed if she'd been able to work during the day, and then have enjoyable meals and conversations with them all later.  

[Cementhead]

On 11/17/2020 at 8:37 PM, Neurochick said:

I think Gillian Anderson looks less like Maggie Thatcher and more like Nancy Reagan. 

I can totally see that now that you mention it.

I myself keep seeing actress Holland Taylor; especially Holland Taylor playing Charlie & Alan's mom Evelyn Harper on Two and a Half Men.  It's like Gillian Anderson playing Holland Taylor playing Margaret Thatcher. 

[dubbel zout]

11 hours ago, buttersister said:

if I'm going up to Scotland for a weekend, I'm bringing a pair of sensible shoes and a jacket.

Even if all I do is get out of the car, I know it's going to be muddy!

[Pallas]

Of course Thatcher would have known what constituted hospitality at Balmoral. A better contrast in backgrounds might have been seen by her showing up with outdoor costumes that were all clearly brand-new, rather than many seasons' worn but meticulously cared for (by other hands): mended, patched, polished, waxed, re-heeled, stored and unstored. After the royals took this in before heading out, Thatcher could still have found a reason to retire from the field, in the stubborn belief that this was her right as an individual and her duty as a professional: neither of which, for her hosts on holiday, outrank a good sport. 

[Hanahope]

Why was Sarah Spencer allowed to go riding to a lodge by herself with Charles, but Diana had to be chaperoned to the opera?

[dubbel zout]

Probably the age difference. Also, the opera was a public date, and the riding was on Spencer land.

[springbarb]

On 11/17/2020 at 12:05 AM, Umbelina said:

ibble dibble bored me as much as I'm fairly certain it bored Thatcher.  I still don't "get" the rules, and yes, I read them.  I don't get them because they aren't worth knowing, not because I could not grasp them if my life depended on it.  Other than that though?  WHY would anyone bother?

I don't care for Thatcher, but I'm on her side on this one.

Part of being a good guest is participating in that sort of thing, even if you think it's silly. Denis had marks on his face and gave Maggie an encouraging look; at that moment, he was the better behaved of the two. Maggie clearly wasn't even trying at that point. I'd feel worse for her if she had ever seemed to have tried to enjoy herself--or at least not judged everything that was happening.

On 11/17/2020 at 10:06 PM, heavysnaxx said:

Well, there's being told things and then there's really hearing them. From what I've seen of Thatcher, I can easily imagine her waving away any help on offer and disparaging it, to boot.

I would ordinarily be on the side of the person in her position but her utter lack of either humor or self-awareness is just chilling, given the power she holds.

Yes, this. I mean, I'm biased because of how awful Thatcher was, but even with the moments of awkwardness...I just couldn't feel bad for her.

On 11/21/2020 at 2:02 AM, Brn2bwild said:

Supposedly because nicety phrases like "I beg your pardon" or "he passed away" were created by lower class people trying to imitate the manners of the upper classes, whereas upper class people know that they are, and therefore say blunter phrases such as "what" and "he died."

Similar to how the theory that true posh people tend to wear old clothes and such; they aren't trying to prove anything by wearing the latest fashions, etc.

It is interesting watching the show as it gets into things within my memory, and how I'm already biased for or against the people in the story.

[Badger]

On the 2nd season Christmas episode of "Downton Abbey", the Crawleys played a kind of variation of charades which they called "The Game."  That was based on an actual game the Royals play which is also called "The Game."  

 

 

 

[irisheyes]

On 11/20/2020 at 4:56 PM, Roseanna said:

Thatcher was an outsider because of her background and gender. So maybe she had never invited to week-end parties where men hunt and fish, create and keep networks, discuss informally so that decisions are already made when the formal meeting begins. Perhaps that's why she thinks that the Prime Minister must read all the papers instead of knowing whose papers are useful and whose are not.  

I didn’t like the implication that Thatcher was the only one working while the RF partied. Say what you want about lazy Margaret and Philip, but no one can accuse the Queen of ignoring her work. 
I think the scenes were designed to show the vast gulf between the Thatchers and the BRF. Everyone came off looking bad. 

[Umbelina]

38 minutes ago, irisheyes said:

I didn’t like the implication that Thatcher was the only one working while the RF partied. Say what you want about lazy Margaret and Philip, but no one can accuse the Queen of ignoring her work. 
I think the scenes were designed to show the vast gulf between the Thatchers and the BRF. Everyone came off looking bad. 

The queen must read her box while vacationing.  Other than that?  What work does she do, unless there is a severe crisis somewhere?

That is vastly different than running a country every single day, and needing to be involved, not just reading documents.

41 minutes ago, Badger said:

On the 2nd season Christmas episode of "Downton Abbey", the Crawleys played a kind of variation of charades which they called "The Game."  That was based on an actual game the Royals play which is also called "The Game."  

 

 

 

I'm sure the PM would have enjoyed that more.

[Roseanna]

14 hours ago, Umbelina said:

That is vastly different than running a country every single day, and needing to be involved, not just reading documents.

How can other Presidents and Prime Minsters have a holiday (of course totally, but still) but Thatcher didn't? She (at least in the show) couldn't differ primary things from secondary ones, delegate at least the latter to others nor trust anybody else but herself.

[WatchrTina]

2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

How can other Presidents and Prime Minsters have a holiday . . . but Thatcher didn't?

I think when Presidents and Prime Ministers take a holiday, they are the focal point of all the support staff involved in making that holiday happen.  I don't think US Presidents on vacation stop working completely -- they just cut way back, relying on their support staff (some of whom probably travel with them) to make sure anything time-sensitive is brought to their attention.

But this episode suggests that when Thatcher visited the Queen there was an expectation (by the royals) that the Prime Minister would leave ALL her responsibilities behind for the weekend (or however long they were invited) and that she would focus all of her attention on her role as a guest of  the Queen.  That seems unrealistic.  Surely the Queen has invited other Prime Ministers before?  Surely there is already an established protocol for ensuring the Prime Minister has the support he/she needs to relax during a week-end get away, while still attending to time-sensitive matters of state.  

I've no doubt that Thatcher was a fish-out-of-water during the visit but I scoff at the depiction of the visit that has been served up.

Edited November 23, 2020 by WatchrTina

[loki310]

On 11/15/2020 at 1:47 PM, dubbel zout said:

I'm pretty sure the stag was CGI.

It was totally CGI. I hate hunting as well but it looked so obviously fake I wasn’t that bothered.