S05.E01: Forty: Part One/S05.E02: Forty: Part Two

[marceline]

So many thoughts and so many posts I'd like to quote and respond to but I'm just going to do a brain dump.

• For the people who say they don't want to see the show address the virus, I understand. I initially felt the same way but I actually grew to appreciate it. We're living through something surreal and horrible right now and pop culture is going to reflect that. The air hug on the lawn really got to me because there are so many people I wish I could hug. I'll be VERY interested to see this season's Thanksgiving episode because that's usually where big stuff goes down but they can't be together.
   
• I think the show did the best they could adapting their storylines to a COVID world. I like that they made the Pearson family cabin a place where they are quarantining together. It means fewer sets to have to deal with and sanitize. Yes, the scenes of Rebecca's day out without masks and eating in a restaurant didn't make sense in COVID times but I think they did the best they could. The alternative was to reshoot those scenes and I don't think that was necessary.
   
• Randall. I see a lot of people are angry at/tired of Randall for a lot of reasons and I respect that but as a Black person with anxiety and depression, he channeled me a lot. To this day, I haven't been able to watch the George Floyd video. I just can't. So many of the white people in my life - friends I've known for decades - keep reaching out and I just can't express to them what it feels like to live in this skin right now. I am surrounded by well-meaning Kates and I feel their love and concern but I can't go there with them. I liked the conversation between Randall and Malik where Malik talked about how he and his father have found a way of coping that started with Trayvon. It broke my heart but that's the reality of raising a Black child these days.
   
• Randall's mom back from the dead. I can't imagine how that doesn't turn out to be a huge mistake. Two parents back from the dead is ridiculous. They declared her DOA, she came back to life, and William never mentioned that? Did he not go back to his apartment? Of course he did. Was there a funeral? Didn't the EMTs report that she came back? I don't see how any of this works. I watched the birth scene and as a big fan of "Call the Midwife" and my first thought was she had a retained placenta. I really wanted Trixie, Phyllis, and Nurse Julienne to come sweeping in and take care of business. 🙂

Bottom line is that I enjoyed the episode. In fact I needed it more than I thought.

[Emily Thrace]

8 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

I agree. I don't like the fact that Laurel lived, assuming she lived and wasn't permanently mentally disabled in some way, she didn't ask about her baby? She didn't sign papers relinquishing her rights? I know it was forty years ago, but forty years ago wasnt 100 years ago- child services would've tried to find Randall's bio parents at least for a time before placing him for adoption. 

Personally I think it would've been more realistic for Laurel to have live but to have told William to take the baby to the firestation so he would have a chance, and she perhaps dying later before reaching senior age. Or it could be William absolutely lied to Randall, and knew Laurel lived.

I can see it happening if she left town or the state immediately after. When someone comes in as an OD the hospital usually calls next of kin. If her parents or a sibling came and offered her a way out if she left right then taking it would be understandable. I can also see that family member discouraging Laurel from contacting William because they blame William for Laurel's addiction. So Laurel walks away from her son and William because she feels they are wrapped up in her old life as an addict.

Its also entirely possible DCFS did contact her and she signed away her rights thinking Randall was better off. Since they weren't married the state would have no reason to inform William of it.

I do think its more likely though that she walked away and DCFs couldn't locate her so her rights were simply severed in absentia. Also DCFS may have just taken William's word that she was dead pre-computers it was a lot harder to trace something like that. 

[pancake bacon]

18 hours ago, OhSarah69 said:

But you can be raised or loved by flawed people, and still hunger for that connection

Hey, now Randall can understand what Kevin feels like, specifically on family dynamics!

My speculation: Randall does investigate about his mother, and  maybe even discovers she didn't die at childbirth, or from an overdose when he was born. Perhaps she did sadly succumb to addiction a few years later… I don't think she's alive in the present, because she just can't have decided to not do anything, to try and get her child back at some point in the 40 years. She obviously tried to have a healthy pregnancy, and had plans for him. What could be the reason for not doing anything? 

[Chatty Cake]

I don’t think they needed two hours. The flashbacks of Rebecca and Jack weren’t necessary. I also don’t like how they throw in William and Jack passing each other. 

I didn’t care for Randall going off on Kate. At least she cared to ask him.  They haven’t lived near each other in years and he’s been a bit self absorbed in his own anxiety problems, family, job, trying to save people....etc to be that tight with her,
As for Kevin and Randall, sometimes it’s okay for siblings to not have a relationship. 

Not sure how I feel about the bio mom possibly being alive. The actress that portrayed her young self was great. Not sure what they’ll do if she’s alive now.

 

[debraran]

Seems like Randall's mom will be taken care of first half of season. "Elegantly done" I will have to wait and see on that one.

https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/this-is-us-boss-explains-season-5-premieres-major-twist

 

[bybrandy]

25 minutes ago, pancake bacon said:

My speculation: Randall does investigate about his mother, and  maybe even discovers she didn't die at childbirth, or from an overdose when he was born. Perhaps she did sadly succumb to addiction a few years later… I don't think she's alive in the present, because she just can't have decided to not do anything, to try and get her child back at some point in the 40 years. She obviously tried to have a healthy pregnancy, and had plans for him. What could be the reason for not doing anything? 

Different speculation: She did eventually reconnect with William who told her the baby died.   So she never looked.   He never told Randall he she was alive because she was a mess and he makes the same choice that Rebecca made causing Randall to forgive Rebecca.  

[MissLucas]

28 minutes ago, Chatty Cake said:

As for Kevin and Randall, sometimes it’s okay for siblings to not have a relationship. 
 

*sound of the writers room going into synchronized hyperventilating*

[madmax]

Wow, lots to read.  Thanks to everyone for their insightful posts and some really funny ones.

I really wish they would have left COVID out of it.  I, like probably 99% of the world, am so tired of it.  I'm tired of wearing masks, I'm tired of not being able to meet up with family, I'm tired of not seeing my son for a year because the Marines won't let him come home on leave.  I watch TV to escape the daily grind, not relive it.

That being said, I'm glad they addressed BLM but I wasn't on board with Randall's dismissal of Kate and his assertation that they never talked racism.  They did.  They tried their best in the time that they were in.  Things were way different back then, in more ways than one.  Had they had a scene where Jack and Rebecca sat Randall down and had "the talk" with him in 1990, it would have been a bunch of fanwanking and pandering.  I understand that Randall has had a totally different experience than every other Pearson, but when someone asks how they can help, you don't reject it the way he did.  BTW, I live in Pittsburgh and totally remember the Johnny Gamage case.  

Everyone did a pretty good job in this episode.  Toby & Miguel's talk was very touching.  Kevin and Madison were so cute.  Think Madison could join the outlaw group?  I would totally watch a show that was just Toby, Miguel, Beth and Madison.

The Laurel twist was totally unnecessary.  Not only did Randall already find a birth parent, they also had a character come back from the dead (Nicky).  This is getting to be more of a soap than the daytime ones.  I do agree with many that the new therapist will recommend that Randall use a genetic site to find relatives and he'll come across some siblings.

 

 

[pancake bacon]

17 minutes ago, bybrandy said:

She did eventually reconnect with William who told her the baby died.   So she never looked.   He never told Randall he she was alive because she was a mess and he makes the same choice that Rebecca made causing Randall to forgive Rebecca.  

Then St William may no longer be St William! Will the show allow it? (I'm sarcastic to the show runners, not you @bybrandy!) 

Likelier story: Laurel lived, but like many tragic addiction stories, she never recovered, and died eventually. She had less hope to try and get clean and sober. I don't think (and certainly hope!) they would make her alive in the present. Laurel had addiction, not amnesia. 

Edited October 29, 2020 by pancake bacon

[Ohmo]

21 hours ago, PepSinger said:

Oof. I'm relieved that I like Randall again. 

That's interesting because I've never disliked him more...and I used to like him a lot.  He's become very sanctimonious to me, as though he's looking down on Kate, Kevin, and even Miguel.  I can empathize with him processing his life and his childhood with newfound perspective, given the times we're in, but I thought he was almost cruel to Kate (and I'm no fan of Kate).  She was as much a child as he was at the time, and when he went on about "making everything OK for her," I thought that was a bit much.  Back then, what did he expect her to do?  If he wanted to have that conversation with Rebecca, who was an adult at the time, that I can understand, but cut Kate some slack.

I've also figured out the difference between Kevin and Randall.  What Kevin said last season was harsh, but I think that Kevin has always respected Randall,  However, I don't think Randall respects Kevin.

I don't care about Randall's biological mother.  I just don't.  As has been said, we've covered this ground with William.  We don't need to do it again.

I like Beth, Deja, Tess, Annie, and Malik, but I'm not sure I'm going to be able to stomach Randall this season.  Can they have a storyline without him?

[Trillian]

3 hours ago, Alice Mudgarden said:

So much of the problem with Randall is his tone. The way he delivers his points is so sanctimonious.

Take the conversation with Kate. He had a point, but his approach to explaining it was just awful, imo. There were other ways he could have voiced what he had been feeling without sounding haughty.

Though I understand why Randall did, if you bottle things up and make everyone around you think things are fine, then... they're probably going to think things are fine. Kate being unaware of what Randall was experiencing on the inside isn't 100% her fault, especially the years that they were kids. Randall chose, for whatever his reasons, not discuss certain things about how he was feeling. Do I feel badly that's how he felt? Yes. Do I also think if he would have broached the subject in a different way, earlier than now, that maybe things wouldn't have built to this point? Yes. There are solutions besides "bottling it up" and "making my sister cry by giving a self-righteous speech".

Randall's entire approach could have been handled in a different manner and I think it would have come across much better. That's how I feel about Randall a lot of the time, though.

Isn’t that Randall though?  The only person who exists or matters in the world?  I thought that so much when he phoned the therapist. A normal person would’ve waited for his next appointment.  Not made an emergency call from his car. And then said politely that he appreciated everything she had done for him but that maybe someone else would be a better fit going forward. Maybe even asked for a referral to someone who met his criteria. But he went after that poor woman as if she had done something wrong and just fired her ass, even though any professional would’ve understood the issue. Because that’s Our Randall

[Ohmo]

20 hours ago, OhSarah69 said:

Yeah...except money isn't everything.  Randall has a hole in his life story, only partially filled by the relationship he got to have with William.  It's natural for him to wonder about his mother, about what could have been.  William and Laurel weren't just drug addicts in a tenement - they were people first.  Laurel was beautiful, young, had ambition, and William was a dreamer, a poet.  Yes, in practical terms, the fact that their lives were partly consumed and then tragically altered by addiction can't be denied, and yes, practically speaking, no child should have to grow up in insecure or dangerous conditions, so yes, Randall escaped all that.  But you can be raised or loved by flawed people, and still hunger for that connection, still want to know a mother or father who isn't perfect but is the reason we exist.  (I get not everyone feels that, but I'm speaking for myself). I can't believe just because Randall was raised by a "nice", white family in a good home, he wouldn't have questions and heart-searching as he got older about his origins.  He knows he was left behind as a baby, and it's not a coincidence that he tries to rewrite history by trying to control people, situations and outcomes.  So it's not a case of "get over it".  Get me? 

First, let me say up front that I'm Caucasian, so I realize that our life experiences are different.  IF the show had never dealt with race before, I could agree with what you're saying.  However, we've gone through this with William, and Jack and Rebecca did at least attempt to address the fact that Randall's life experience was unlike their life experiences.  They were clumsy attempts to be sure, but they were attempts. The time at the pool, inviting the teacher over for dinner, supporting Randall's wish to attend an HBCU.  I think Randall was "seen" by Jack and Rebecca.  Not in the way the conversation is being had today, but for the 1980s and beyond, for a couple who were not college-educated or particularly familiar with the idea of diversity, I don't think Jack and Rebecca did an awful job in trying to address race as a major part of Randall's life.  His speech with Kate made it seem like none of that happened and that he (as always) had to do the "heavy lifting" in the family.  That simply wasn't so.

[Jadzia]

Maybe the next twist is that Laurel not only survived, she changed her name to Yanny.

[sara416]

I'm going on record to say that I don't think his mom is alive. I could be way off though. It seems to be too much, even for a Fogelman show. 

I wonder how many of those flashbacks of actual footage we have seen before were because they had to make quick changes about plot and filming and these were easy ways to fill time. Overall, I think they did a pretty good job incorporating events that have happened since they stopped filming and had to shoehorn this stuff into it. I'm grading on a curve though, because I am glad that I am not the person who has to make the decisions about how to do this and they've likely never had to do this before. 

I loved Randall and Malick on the porch. That exchange sounded natural. The actor who plays Malick is fantastic and I hope they continue to give him time in this show. 

I'm a therapist, so I'm super critical of the way therapy is often portrayed on TV, because it is almost always wrong in some way. But I really appreciate that they had Randall break up with his therapist appropriately, and for her to respond appropriately. Sometimes our clients outgrow us, and sometimes they need something different than we can give them.  A lot of therapy skills are color and gender blind (communication, supportive reflection, validation of feelings, etc). But sometimes you just need to see someone who looks like you. And that's okay. 

[ams1001]

35 minutes ago, Jadzia said:

Maybe the next twist is that Laurel not only survived, she changed her name to Yanny.

Damn, I was trying to come up with a good Laurel/Yanny joke last night and couldn't. 😂

[PRgal]

28 minutes ago, sara416 said:

I'm going on record to say that I don't think his mom is alive. I could be way off though. It seems to be too much, even for a Fogelman show. 

I wonder how many of those flashbacks of actual footage we have seen before were because they had to make quick changes about plot and filming and these were easy ways to fill time. Overall, I think they did a pretty good job incorporating events that have happened since they stopped filming and had to shoehorn this stuff into it. I'm grading on a curve though, because I am glad that I am not the person who has to make the decisions about how to do this and they've likely never had to do this before. 

I loved Randall and Malick on the porch. That exchange sounded natural. The actor who plays Malick is fantastic and I hope they continue to give him time in this show. 

I'm a therapist, so I'm super critical of the way therapy is often portrayed on TV, because it is almost always wrong in some way. But I really appreciate that they had Randall break up with his therapist appropriately, and for her to respond appropriately. Sometimes our clients outgrow us, and sometimes they need something different than we can give them.  A lot of therapy skills are color and gender blind (communication, supportive reflection, validation of feelings, etc). But sometimes you just need to see someone who looks like you. And that's okay. 

Actually, it sometimes helps if the therapist understands your experiences/background (e.g. for me, a therapist whose parents are immigrants, for example).  And one who “looks” like you can work against your needs too.  You might feel they’re judging you (especially if you come from a culture who uses shame a lot.  Or what is interpreted as shame by people born/raised here).  

[Madding crowd]

4 hours ago, mansonlamps said:

Kate is a little more than just overweight and Toby takes medication for depression,  let's put them first on the list for a healthy white infant who would be pursued by hundreds of couples!  Yeah,  that's realistic.   I mean if their last name was Pierson maybe,  but they don't even have that to make them soar to the top of the list. 

In a private adoption, birth mothers can look through the people who want babies and decide who they want to talk to. Not everyone is prejudiced against fat people or people who take medication. Each birth mother has her own thoughts and reasons why she chooses potential parents for her child. I would value love and values over being skinny. Of course many birth mothers would look for those qualities but not all.

Edited October 29, 2020 by Madding crowd

[Jeddah]

24 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

I would value love and values over being skinny.

Well, sure. I think most of would. But do you think Kate and Toby have more love and better values than anyone else? They don’t strike me as people who would stand out because of their personalities either.

The fact that Randall’s birth mother didn’t die wasn’t the most surprising part of this episode. The biggest surprise for me was that Kate was actually nice to Kevin and Madison. I have no idea why any birth mother would want to hand their baby over to Kate.

[Madding crowd]

No I don’t necessarily think they have more love but a birth mother could bond with them and think they share the same values and she has to use her intuition to decide who she wants. Most birth mothers do pick couples who come across as loving and who will raise the baby according to their values. Toby and Kate also have a loving extended family who would also love the baby. I’m just saying how a person looks may not matter to some young women who are looking for a loving home for their child.

[Monibella]

Okay..so I have actual triplets.  2 boys 1 girl born at 30 weeks, 6 weeks in NICU and they are 10 years old now and all perfect and healthy. This is what drew me to this show from the beginning.   I say this to say..there is no possible way that any doctor, OB or not, would have done what Podunk Dr. did to Madison and Kevin.  NO WAY.  It’s like they don’t think viewers understand multiples.  This is Kevin “Nipple” Pearson after all!  They would have immediately admitted her to the nearest hospital for lots more tests for her and the babies.  It’s stupid how inaccurate this show is.  I honestly hated all the doting and attention when I was pregnant but it is essential with multiples to monitor everything especially since Madison would be considered “High Risk” since she is having twins and was never supposed to be able to have kids.  

[Monibella]

This is also how I knew that the birth of the triplets first season was not present day..no Doctor now does natural births for triplets.  

Edited October 29, 2020 by Monibella

[bettername2come]

I felt the show did a pretty good job embracing the elephant in the room. The only part about it that felt disingenuous was when they first brought it up between Kevin and Madison, since it hadn't yet been mentioned. I do think the point about the study being canceled was a good one. No idea if they always intended Rebecca not to go, but the consequence of the thing that started the fight is out of the equation is kind of interesting. 

I got Lost vibes from Randall's mom's eye-opening at the end. I know it had been speculated that she was alive, but that didn't feel real to me. That being said, I'm curious. Did she get her life together? Did William ever know she lived? Did she have other children? Does Randall have biological siblings? How come the private investigator who found William never tracked her down? 

Little things I liked: Toby thinking Kev is the new Batman. Clearly, he's the Green Arrow. I thought Kate crying while she was talking to Randall was some good acting from Chrissy Metz. And she looked like she had lost some significant weight in that short dress when talking to Kevin and Madison on the lawn, although I'm sure some of it was just that the dress was very flattering especially to her legs. I'm also happy Timothy Omundson showed up for five seconds and got his paycheck and that Annie remains adorable. And, haha to Randall calling Madison "the only friend in the family."

[Norma Desmond]

The season is off to an underwelming start. Oof.

It's kinda painful to say it, but Jack Pearson has overstayed his welcome. I am *so* not interested in revisting the day the twins were born and so on. There is nothing left about Jack that is worth telling, I think. His story has come full circle. Enough.

Jack and William kinda met in the hospital. Oh boy. Just no. And Randall's long lost bio mother may be alive? Another no. This is Us used to be good soap opera; now, it's starting to resembla a bad, trite one.

Kevin and Madison? Ugh. I hate what they're doing there (started off as a fling but will probably turn into an EPIC! STORYBOOK! LOVE!). I despise this storyline, maybe I wouldn't hate it so much if the actress wasn't the showrunner's wife. It just reeks of nepotism and I cannot stand her or the character.

 

I think this may be my last season with this show.

 

 

 

Edited October 29, 2020 by Norma Desmond

[MrsWitter]

11 hours ago, ams1001 said:

Challenger happened in January of 1986; they would have been in kindergarten (presumably). Not that they couldn't have been paying attention, but I'm not sure 5½-year olds would have been as aware of that as older kids (I was 10 and I barely remember if we were watching it in school...I think we were...?). Then again... it is Randall.

I’m the same age as the Big Three and I remember the Challenger quite vividly. I also remember children’s shows (like my favorite, Punky Brewster) doing special episodes about it because so many kids were traumatized. That’s not to say the Big Three are among those kids, but there were a lot of us.

 

ETA: I wrote my reply before reading @Jeddah’s response. I like that you so vividly remember the Punky episode too. I think that just means we’re super-cool lovers of Punky.

Edited October 29, 2020 by MrsWitter

[Jeddah]

55 minutes ago, Madding crowd said:

No I don’t necessarily think they have more love but a birth mother could bond with them and think they share the same values and she has to use her intuition to decide who she wants. Most birth mothers do pick couples who come across as loving and who will raise the baby according to their values. Toby and Kate also have a loving extended family who would also love the baby. I’m just saying how a person looks may not matter to some young women who are looking for a loving home for their child.

I get what you’re saying. I’m just saying Kate and Toby don’t seem like good people to me. It’s not just about looks. If a birth mother is looking for someone with similar values, what values are those? Selfishness? Feelings of entitlement? An unstable marriage that barely survived CrossFit? Being mean to your parents for perceived slights from 30 years ago? Not having a job at all in your adult life? I really am curious to see what the birth mother says about choosing them.

[PepSinger]

I've seen a few people bring up Toby's depression, so I'm just going to respond in general.

Having Depression does not disqualify you from adopting. As long as you are being treated for it and following your practitioner's orders, then you have just as much a chance as anyone adopting. They just want to make sure that you are fit to parent, which is why you need a letter from the doctor or mental health practitioner. Is it an extra hoop? Sure, but it's not impossible. I don't want to further stigmatize Depression and other mental illnesses, so let's not assume that Depression = No adopting a baby.

Edited October 29, 2020 by PepSinger

[flyingmontana]

I think it's also important to note that someone as morbidly obese as Kate is at much higher risk of dying if she gets COVID. It was already unbelievable that Kate and Toby would be picked to adopt a baby given the factors already at play with their health issues and struggling to manage a disabled toddler. But the added threat of COVID to their precarious health and lives would make it just insane for a birth mother to choose them. So if the show wanted to incorporate a realistic portrayal of how COVID has pervaded the storylines, they needed to scrap the crazy fantasy that Toby and Kate get another baby dropped in their laps. As much as I was annoyed by many other flaws in this episode, which others have covered, the reluctance to address the danger of Kate's weight on her ability to survive the pandemic really outrages me and I'm surprised that it hasn't been mentioned yet in this forum....

[MBayGal]

2 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

It's kinda painful to say it, but Jack Pearson has overstayed his welcome. I am *so* not interested in revisting the day the twins were born and so on. There is nothing left about Jack that is worth telling I think.  Enough.

I so totally agree with this! So it was disheartening to read this in an interview with one of the producers: “We don't lack for Jack's story. He's got a big arc in season, particularly in the back half of the season, and we don't have that much time left so we're gonna utilize our guy.”. I may wear out my fast forward button!!!

[bybrandy]

1 hour ago, PepSinger said:

Having Depression does not disqualify you from adopting. As long as you are being treated for it and following your practitioner's orders, then you have just as much a chance as anyone adopting. They just want to make sure that you are fit to parent, which is why you need a letter from the doctor or mental health practitioner. Is it an extra hoop? Sure, but it's not impossible. I don't want to further stigmatize Depression and other mental illnesses, so let's not assume that Depression = No adopting a baby.

I'd also say that if I had a family history of depression I would be more apt to pick adoptive parents who disclosed treatment for depression.  It can be hereditary and I would want my child to have somebody in their corner whose mind might go their quicker when they saw their kid experiencing the same symptoms and who would be able to talk to the kid about their own experience with depression so the child felt less alone as they began treatment.   

 

[bybrandy]

3 hours ago, Jeddah said:

4 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

 

I get what you’re saying. I’m just saying Kate and Toby don’t seem like good people to me. It’s not just about looks. If a birth mother is looking for someone with similar values, what values are those? Selfishness? Feelings of entitlement? An unstable marriage that barely survived CrossFit? Being mean to your parents for perceived slights from 30 years ago? Not having a job at all in your adult life? I really am curious to see what the birth mother says about choosing them.

It is absolutely fine that you don't like Kate and Toby.   But they wouldn't have put any of that stuff on their adoption profiles.  They don't think they're terrible people.   So they certainly wouldn't highlight it in their adoption presentation.   You put the good stuff on your adoption application.  



 

[debraran]

4 hours ago, Norma Desmond said:

The season is off to an underwelming start. Oof.

It's kinda painful to say it, but Jack Pearson has overstayed his welcome. I am *so* not interested in revisting the day the twins were born and so on. There is nothing left about Jack that is worth telling, I think. His story has come full circle. Enough.

Jack and William kinda met in the hospital. Oh boy. Just no. And Randall's long lost bio mother may be alive? Another no. This is Us used to be good soap opera; now, it's starting to resembla a bad, trite one.

Kevin and Madison? Ugh. I hate what they're doing there (started off as a fling but will probably turn into an EPIC! STORYBOOK! LOVE!). I despise this storyline, maybe I wouldn't hate it so much if the actress wasn't the showrunner's wife. It just reeks of nepotism and I cannot stand her or the character.

 

I think this may be my last season with this show.

 

 

 

Why they are doing this I don't know. So much soap opera stuff. The writing is better than this. Fogleman said Laurel will not be dragged out, half a season maybe but it will be "elegant writing" I just don't see how. I hope his therapist is a friend of hers, aunt or neighbor but please not blood. Look at Randall, he switches to a black therapist and low and behold, he finds his long thought dead Mom. That would "jump the shark" more than anything and really below their writing standards of the past. I'm sure the length of time is because he has to find one and have a few sessions before we see anything.

With all the Madison hate/love or "meh" remarks, does anyone think Sophie's story line was unfinished? The ring was significant to the TIU or they wouldn't emphasize it so much. Unless the actress bowed out, why have the flashback of her mom telling Kevin he had to "earn the ring" and Kevin going to cemetery to apologize to her, wanting a second chance. Then we see Sophie not wearing her ring but gazing at it in a box and looking thoughtful. Then he goes home and Madison gets pregnant (with twins) in one encounter in which we see Kevin felt was a mistake and one time thing. Then he's a good guy and thinks that this might be his family and has himself fall in love with the idea of a family and 2 kids.  Something just feels so wrong. Do you guys think she'll die with past anorexic complications or just know Kevin doesn't love her the same way if they stay "engaged". I don't trust writers who say Sophie could be back in the arc because they want to appease everyone and keep you watching but wondered if anyone thought the whole ring episode was for naught.

 

[alexvillage]

On 10/28/2020 at 12:01 AM, wonderwoman said:

so glad the show addressed this. the idea that discussions about racism shouldn’t upset white people underlies why race remains such a divisive issue in this country. 

I was thinking about this. I skimmed through the comments here and some people are uncomfortable with the show bringing up police murdering but I think that, in the same way they made the virus part of the story, it is important to make those conflicts as well.

The conversation and the mood when Randall, Beth and the girls were watching the news, that's probably something very common in black families, and things only get worse. I appreciate the moment because it is not something I can feel, not being black, but it makes me feel like I want to have more solidarity toward racially oppressed people, learn how to be an ally. Feeling uncomfortable can also be a wake up call. We (white or white presenting or with white privileged) are affected by systemic racism and we should step for a minute and accept that - we are, in a way, racists. We have to unlearn what the system tells us. I know people who are uncomfortable when the issue or race is "thrown at the viewers" but not when the LGBTQ issues are equally "thrown at viewers". Use the uncomfortable to reflect on the why.

[PRgal]

16 hours ago, ShortyMac said:

As a disabled person, thank you for saying this. Lest we forget, the Americans with Disabilities Act was only passed in 1990. 30 years ago. The Civil Rights Act, 1964.

Unfortunately, there will always be discrimination - disability, race...that's reality.

And in some cultures, people with disabilities are treated even more paternalistically than others.  I often hear people from my own background say how people with disabilities are “taken care of” by families more “back home” than here.  Ummmm, how do you know they don’t want to be independent?  

[JudyObscure]

 I cried along with Kate when she was telling Randall how concerned she was about him, but was afraid to say anything for fear it would be wrong, and, sure enough, it was wrong in Randall's eyes. 

Why would he have ever expected Kate to start a conversation about race with him?  That's not how it works.  We don't go up to disabled people and ask them how their disability feels?   

Randall hasn't been shown asking Kate how it feels to be severely obese in a world where women are valued for their perceived beauty and thinness is the first criterion on that list?  Does tall, handsome  Randall have any idea how Kate feels when people stare at her on the street, make comments under their breath, study the contents of her grocery cart, or refuse to even glance at her job application? Does Randall know how Kate feels to constantly see people who look like her used as an object of ridicule in movies and TV?

Yet Kate hasn't attacked Randall for not asking her how it feels to be fat. If Kate wanted to discuss those feelings with her brother she would be the one to start the conversation and I imagine she felt Randall should be the one to start a conversation about race. When she tried, Randall implied that she would never be able to understand his pain and therefore she was useless to him.  Her love for him seemed to be of no value, because she didn't know exactly how it felt to be him. I have no idea what Kate was thinking while she was "sitting with it," but she looked completely miserable and  I don't understand what she had done to deserve that.

[Josiemae]

40 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 I cried along with Kate when she was telling Randall how concerned she was about him, but was afraid to say anything for fear it would be wrong, and, sure enough, it was wrong in Randall's eyes. 

Why would he have ever expected Kate to start a conversation about race with him?  That's not how it works.  We don't go up to disabled people and ask them how their disability feels?   

Randall hasn't been shown asking Kate how it feels to be severely obese in a world where women are valued for their perceived beauty and thinness is the first criterion on that list?  Does tall, handsome  Randall have any idea how Kate feels when people stare at her on the street, make comments under their breath, study the contents of her grocery cart, or refuse to even glance at her job application? Does Randall know how Kate feels to constantly see people who look like her used as an object of ridicule in movies and TV?

Yet Kate hasn't attacked Randall for not asking her how it feels to be fat. If Kate wanted to discuss those feelings with her brother she would be the one to start the conversation and I imagine she felt Randall should be the one to start a conversation about race. When she tried, Randall implied that she would never be able to understand his pain and therefore she was useless to him.  Her love for him seemed to be of no value, because she didn't know exactly how it felt to be him. I have no idea what Kate was thinking while she was "sitting with it," but she looked completely miserable and  I don't understand what she had done to deserve that.

Thank you for this! Randall is an insufferable narcissistic who is always looking for any excuse to be victimized. Note to the writers: PLEASE stop with the lecturing. 

[sadie]

Enough with the Jack flashbacks. I like Milo as much as the next guy but it’s a tired contrived plot device at this point and I literally fast forward his scenes now. 

So Randall’s mom lived but never tried to find William or her kid? She never went back to their apartment and William didn’t care enough to see she got a funeral or something? WTF writers? I guess we are also supposed to forget William was gay and a drug addict and I’m pretty sure he was still living in that apartment when Randall found him again, but his bio mom had no interest in going to back to find, you know, HER BABY? Boy if Randall thought he had issues before let’s see him deal with that delightful piece of information. 
 

Randall, enough already. I love Sterling K Brown but I hate this character. He’s too one sided, self centered, and just unlikable. All our parents fucked a lot up in our childhoods, it’s not his siblings fault they didn't address race enough growing up. That’s on Saint Jack and Rebecca, but the only person Randall’s not upset with is Rebecca? 
 

Kevin and Madisons story is the only thing saving this crap show at this point, and honorable mentions to Toby and Miquel. 

[Ohiopirate02]

3 hours ago, debraran said:

Why they are doing this I don't know. So much soap opera stuff. The writing is better than this. Fogleman said Laurel will not be dragged out, half a season maybe but it will be "elegant writing" I just don't see how. I hope his therapist is a friend of hers, aunt or neighbor but please not blood. Look at Randall, he switches to a black therapist and low and behold, he finds his long thought dead Mom. That would "jump the shark" more than anything and really below their writing standards of the past. I'm sure the length of time is because he has to find one and have a few sessions before we see anything.

With all the Madison hate/love or "meh" remarks, does anyone think Sophie's story line was unfinished? The ring was significant to the TIU or they wouldn't emphasize it so much. Unless the actress bowed out, why have the flashback of her mom telling Kevin he had to "earn the ring" and Kevin going to cemetery to apologize to her, wanting a second chance. Then we see Sophie not wearing her ring but gazing at it in a box and looking thoughtful. Then he goes home and Madison gets pregnant (with twins) in one encounter in which we see Kevin felt was a mistake and one time thing. Then he's a good guy and thinks that this might be his family and has himself fall in love with the idea of a family and 2 kids.  Something just feels so wrong. Do you guys think she'll die with past anorexic complications or just know Kevin doesn't love her the same way if they stay "engaged". I don't trust writers who say Sophie could be back in the arc because they want to appease everyone and keep you watching but wondered if anyone thought the whole ring episode was for naught.

 

I believe that the Kevin-Sophie ship has sailed.  They got back together as adults and broke up because Kevin is an addict and Sophie could not deal with him in that state.  Kevin has been clean for months now and has been doing the work to stay that way.  I think them finally watching the end of Good Will Hunting was their ending at least in Kevin's eyes.  Of course, he does not know about Sophie having second thoughts with that ring.  Now Kevin and Madison are doing something with twins on the way, and I think her comments about seeing Kevin's flaws as part of him and not something completely negative is their turning point.  Sophie loves(d) Kevin in spite of his flaws and Madison seems to love Kevin because of them.  That difference is huge and if Sophie comes back I hope Kevin stays with Madison.  

[MaggieG]

I am officially aboard the Madison/Kevin ship. They are cute together. 

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

I believe that the Kevin-Sophie ship has sailed.  They got back together as adults and broke up because Kevin is an addict and Sophie could not deal with him in that state.  Kevin has been clean for months now and has been doing the work to stay that way.  I think them finally watching the end of Good Will Hunting was their ending at least in Kevin's eyes.  Of course, he does not know about Sophie having second thoughts with that ring.  Now Kevin and Madison are doing something with twins on the way, and I think her comments about seeing Kevin's flaws as part of him and not something completely negative is their turning point.  Sophie loves(d) Kevin in spite of his flaws and Madison seems to love Kevin because of them.  That difference is huge and if Sophie comes back I hope Kevin stays with Madison.  

I think Sophie-Kevin will always be that "what could have been" relationship for both of them. Not that this show is realistic, but that would be more realistic than them somehow getting together again.  A teen romance that didn't work followed by an attempt at getting back together that didn't work.

[gonzosgirrl]

I think it's unfortunate that the BLM storyline is getting conflated with the Randall is an insufferable asshat storyline. He, and all people of colour, has an absolute right to their feelings about racism and I don't think any white person can ever truly understand what it is like to watch the George Floyd video from their perspective. But we have four seasons of this character already, where it has been shown that Jack and Rebecca tried to address his different needs as a black child. We have seen Kevin be there to support him through debilitating panic attacks, and it's always been shown how close he and Kate are. So to be so blunt and dismissive of Kate's feelings was, to me, over the top. Absolutely, systemic racism exists, but from what we've seen, Randall has not really experienced it. Maybe it's his own internalized guilt that has him lashing out at his sister, who is genuinely trying to be a part of the solution, not the problem. Even with that, if the BLM was the only story happening, I could sympathize more - but then they had to go and have St. Randall save the day with Rebecca. And, IMO, he is the one who should offer the apology first to Kevin, since he has already admitted he was wrong to do what he did to Rebecca, which is what started the fight in the first place. Not saying Kevin shouldn't apologize, too, but the onus is on Randall, IMO. I guess it all speaks to how great Sterling is in the role, because he is so smug and self-righteous that I just want to punch him. 

[Scarlett45]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

So to be so blunt and dismissive of Kate's feelings was, to me, over the top. Absolutely, systemic racism exists, but from what we've seen, Randall has not really experienced it. Maybe it's his own internalized guilt that has him lashing out at his sister, who is genuinely trying to be a part of the solution, not the problem.

This may be a difference in personalities and communication styles, but I in no way saw Randall be dismissive to Kate, or lash out at Kate. From what I saw its clear that Randall knows Kate loves him, (and he loves her) but he just couldn't deal with her feelings at that moment- which I think was fair. Randall is Kate's peer, not her Dad, he doesnt have to deal with her feelings first all of the time. He has been completely supportive of her at other times (like when she wanted to do IVF and Rebecca was so against it).

 

That in no way has anything to do with how horribly he treated his mother (to me). 
 

Maybe setting some emotional boundaries and not feeling like he has to be the knight in shining armor will help him manage his anxiety. 
 

I in no way saw him be rude, dismissive or uncaring towards his sister right then. He was just dealing with his own shit. 

[MissLucas]

25 minutes ago, gonzosgirrl said:

I think it's unfortunate that the BLM storyline is getting conflated with the Randall is an insufferable asshat storyline. He, and all people of colour, has an absolute right to their feelings about racism and I don't think any white person can ever truly understand what it is like to watch the George Floyd video from their perspective. But we have four seasons of this character already, where it has been shown that Jack and Rebecca tried to address his different needs as a black child.

Even with that, if the BLM was the only story happening, I could sympathize more - but then they had to go and have St. Randall save the day with Rebecca. 

I thought about this too and would wish that we get the other members of his family more involved in the BML story line. St. Randall is a distraction and takes focus off from valid points the show wants to make about systemic racism. 

[alexvillage]

4 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I think it's unfortunate that the BLM storyline is getting conflated with the Randall is an insufferable asshat storyline. He, and all people of colour, has an absolute right to their feelings about racism and I don't think any white person can ever truly understand what it is like to watch the George Floyd video from their perspective. But we have four seasons of this character already, where it has been shown that Jack and Rebecca tried to address his different needs as a black child.

Even with that, if the BLM was the only story happening, I could sympathize more - but then they had to go and have St. Randall save the day with Rebecca. 

 

4 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

I thought about this too and would wish that we get the other members of his family more involved in the BML story line. St. Randall is a distraction and takes focus off from valid points the show wants to make about systemic racism. 

Good points, in particular the "Randall saves the day" (too self-righteous),  and making the white member of the family show true allyship. That would feel like real concern (from the part of the writers)  and not just virtue signaling.

[lovetowrite73]

Some of the comments on this board regarding Randall and his reaction to Kate's comments just open my eyes to the fact that I am not among too many allies here. He did NOT go off on his sister. When you are exhausted, being hit with image after image and video after video of black people being killed at the hands of people who are supposed to protect us, well, you just DO NOT feel like having that discussion. He didn't block her out. He was depicted with a very REAL reaction that black folks have had during these times. That's privilege speaking when you mention that he should have just had a discussion with her right then and there. No, he should have the discussion when he's mentally ready - and, guess what? That might not happen for a long, long time, and - to me - that's okay.

Also, it doesn't matter that he was raised privileged. When an officer pulls you over, they don't have a clue how you were raised. I was doing pretty good but reading some of the comments here just threw me right back to when the George Floyd killing first happened and all the rhetoric I read online surrounding the killing. I am, again, totally exhausted.

[Scarlett45]

3 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

Some of the comments on this board regarding Randall and his reaction to Kate's comments just open my eyes to the fact that I am not among too many allies here. He did NOT go off on his sister. When you are exhausted, being hit with image after image and video after video of black people being killed at the hands of people who are supposed to protect us, well, you just DO NOT feel like having that discussion. He didn't block her out. He was depicted with a very REAL reaction that black folks have had during these times. That's privilege speaking when you mention that he should have just had a discussion with her right then and there. No, he should have the discussion when he's mentally ready - and, guess what? That might not happen for a long, long time, and - to me - that's okay.

Also, it doesn't matter that he was raised privileged. When an officer pulls you over, they don't have a clue how you were raised. I was doing pretty good but reading some of the comments here just threw me right back to when the George Floyd killing first happened and all the rhetoric I read online surrounding the killing. I am, again, totally exhausted.

We are in agreement. 

[Ohmo]

27 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

He was just dealing with his own shit. 

But he's always going to be dealing with his own shit, and I say that as someone who is Caucasian but who also is a person with a disability that I've had since birth. I don't know the experiences that Randall has had as a Black man, but he doesn't know the experiences that I have had as a person with a disability. He's right. It is exhausting, but it is not only exhausting for people of color.  It's exhausting in a different way because we're discussing different things. And I'll tell you something else.  Randall's "You want to talk now" really annoyed me, as it does when others say it. Would he prefer that Kate talk later?  How about not talk at all?  My personal view of that is that when someone offers you the floor, you take it. Yes, it sucks to have to do that, yes, you shouldn't have to, and yes, it's exhausting, but you still take it.  I'm doing this with someone in my own life right now because this person is in a receptive frame of mind. You don't blow that opportunity and shut it down like Randall did. He's always going to have his shit to deal with.

[CarpeFelis]

23 hours ago, mtlchick said:

Miguel from "Ugh, more Miguel?" to "YAY! More Miguel!" over time, me being one of them.  

Same here. And the way the Big Three normally ignore/disrespect the fact that Miguel is Rebecca’s husband ticks me off. (Because after all, it’s All About Them—whenever it isn’t All About Randall, that is—and Rebecca should just have sequestered herself in a remote convent when The Irreplaceable St. Jack died...) So even though Randall was right about the drug interaction* and absolutely right to bring it up, I was happy to see Miguel stand his ground and not just hand the phone over to him.

* My first thought when I saw Rebecca scratching the poison ivy was “I wonder if she took something and this episode she had was just a drug interaction and not rapid deterioration?” For once the writers did not disappoint!

All About Randall talk aside, I did feel really bad for him during that conversation with Kate. No, Kate, he should not have to take on the emotional labor of explaining any of this to you or soothing your feelings. And since he asked what she was apologizing for, and told her what his experience as a kid had been like, by the end of the conversation she COULD have said she was sorry she not only hadn’t given him any support when he needed it, but was completely oblivious to the fact that he needed it. (I get that this was largely due to Mr. and Mrs. Let’s Sweep Anything Unpleasant Under the Rug and BTW We Don’t See Color, but she could still realize now that it was wrong, apologize for it, and do better going forward. Including not freaking out and sending him a zillion texts that just make him feel like it’s All About Her.)

[balmz]

9 minutes ago, lovetowrite73 said:

Some of the comments on this board regarding Randall and his reaction to Kate's comments just open my eyes to the fact that I am not among too many allies here. He did NOT go off on his sister. When you are exhausted, being hit with image after image and video after video of black people being killed at the hands of people who are supposed to protect us, well, you just DO NOT feel like having that discussion. He didn't block her out. He was depicted with a very REAL reaction that black folks have had during these times. That's privilege speaking when you mention that he should have just had a discussion with her right then and there. No, he should have the discussion when he's mentally ready - and, guess what? That might not happen for a long, long time, and - to me - that's okay.

Also, it doesn't matter that he was raised privileged. When an officer pulls you over, they don't have a clue how you were raised. I was doing pretty good but reading some of the comments here just threw me right back to when the George Floyd killing first happened and all the rhetoric I read online surrounding the killing. I am, again, totally exhausted.

agreed, randall did not go off, also seemed really out of character for kate not to make a big fit about it or making it about herself

 

that being said it would have been nice to see beth's or deja's or tess or annie's or even malik and his parents pov instead of just randall's with the blm movement

[Scarlett45]

6 minutes ago, Ohmo said:

But he's always going to be dealing with his own shit, and I say that as someone who is Caucasian but who also is a person with a disability that I've had since birth. I don't know the experiences that Randall has had as a Black man, but he doesn't know the experiences that I have had as a person with a disability. He's right. It is exhausting, but it is not only exhausting for people of color.  It's exhausting in a different way because we're discussing different things. And I'll tell you something else.  Randall's "You want to talk now" really annoyed me, as it does when others say it. Would he prefer that Kate talk later?  How about not talk at all?  My personal view of that is that when someone offers you the floor, you take it. Yes, it sucks to have to do that, yes, you shouldn't have to, and yes, it's exhausting, but you still take it.  I'm doing this with someone in my own life right now because this person is in a receptive frame of mind. You don't blow that opportunity and shut it down like Randall did. He's always going to have his shit to deal with.

You may be a more emotionally healthy person than Randall is at this moment, and given the man's extreme anxiety that doesn't surprise me that most people are more emotionally healthy than he is right now.

Randall has a right to shut down and direct his emotional energy towards things he deems more important than his adult sister (who was in a pretty good place physically and emotionally) at this moment- like his own birthday, wife and minor children. I dont see that it means that he doesnt love or appreciate his sister, or doesnt value their relationship. Her offer wasnt his top priority right then, and I dont think making that choice makes him a bad person or a bad brother.

I dont think Randall ever suggested or implied life was only exhausting for people of color. He was talking about his experience about that particular subject right then. 

[Ohmo]

1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

You may be a more emotionally healthy person than Randall is at this moment, and given the man's extreme anxiety that doesn't surprise me that most people are more emotionally healthy than he is right now.

Randall has a right to shut down and direct his emotional energy towards things he deems more important than his adult sister at this moment- like his own birthday, wife and minor children. I dont see that it means that he doesnt love or appreciate his sister, or doesnt value their relationship. Her offer wasnt his top priority right then, and I dont think making that choice makes him a bad person or a bad brother.

The issue I have with your statement about shit is that there will always be some aspect of being a Black man that he will have to deal with, just like there will always be an aspect of disability that people with disabilities have to handle.  Even if he deals with the above "shit," there will be some other "shit" to deal with. If the message is, "I'm going to get my shit together before I talk to you," he's never going to talk.

I also think there's a difference in hearing Kate versus handling Kate. Kate wanted Randall to hear her.  She wanted to know where they stood, and if Randall didn't know he could have just said that.  Processing your own stuff is important, but not at the expense of shutting everyone else all the way out and waiting for the perfect time.  There will never be one.